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Editing disagreement

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There's a bit of a disagreement between User:Deb and myself concerning the "Partners" section of this article. Deb believes that it is "highly promotional" and wanted to eliminate it altogether, while I thought that it needed a more surgical approach, cutting out any specific residual promotionalism, butleaving the section in the article.

Here's the background. On October 31, 2014 that section of the article (which, incidentally, was written by am editor who was paid to do so by the firm), looked like this:

Partners

Alan Goldstein, AIA, Co-Founder

Alan draws on 40 years of professional experience in planning, designing and managing distinguished projects. His ability to create beautiful layouts within the most complex of building shapes and structures has been a hallmark of his career and has led to collaborations with such well known architectural firms as Herzog & de Meuron, Renzo Piano's Building Workshop, Coop Himmelb(l)au, Pelli Clarke Pelli Architects, Studio Daniel Libeskind, and Cookfox. Alan is well recognized within the architectural community for his understanding and knowledge of the New York City building code and has served on various technical committees established by the Real Estate Board of New York and the New York City Department of Buildings to help bring about revisions and updates to the New York City construction code. Alan has worked with many of New York’s prominent developers including Silverstein Properties, El-Ad Group, The Naftali Group, Alexico, Toll Brothers, The Milstein Organization, Glenwood Management, The Continuum Company, CBSK Ironstate, Atlantic Realty Development Corporation, JD Carlisle Development, Red Apple Real Estate and Tishman Speyer.

L. Stephen Hill, AIA, Co-Founder

During his career spanning more than 25 years [8], Stephen has made an outstanding contribution to the skyline of Manhattan, working on a wide array of designs including high rise residential towers, mixed use hotel/residential/retail projects, mid rise, low income and luxury apartment buildings, historic renovations, and challenging adaptive re-use projects. Additional project types include commercial office space and private residences. Stephen has worked on 151 Maiden Lane for Fortis Property Group, One Riverside, The Rushmore and The Aldyn for Extell Development Company. Earlier projects include The Heritage, 220 Riverside Boulevard, 200 Riverside Boulevard, 180 Riverside Boulevard and 160 Riverside Boulevard for The Trump Organization, Hudson Waterfront, 33 West End Avenue for Atlantic Development. Additionally, he was involved in The Aston, the Acadia, The Caroline, One Nashua Street in Boston, The Remi and the renovation of the iconic Plaza Hotel.

David West, AIA, Co-Founder

David has over 30 years of architectural experience, and is one of New York City's premiere zoning experts. He has extensive background in land use approvals including the ULURP process and Variances and Landmarks Commission Approvals. David has presented numerous projects at public hearings, community boards and to city agencies. He is frequently involved in projects from the earliest stages of land assembly, and has given numerous lectures and participated on panels at such institutions as the American Institute of Architects, New York City Department of City Planning, Real Estate Board of New York, New York University and Columbia University School of Real Estate. David has worked on projects with numerous leading New York firms and institutions such as: 363-365 Bond Street for The Lightstone Group, the six building master plan development of the former Mary Immaculate Hospital site in Jamaica, Queens for The Chetrit Group, Silverstein Properties, 605 West 42nd Street for The Moinian Group, 221 West 29th Street for CBSK Ironstate, El-Ad Group, Avalon Bay Properties, Jack Resnick & Sons, The Related Companies, Fisher Brothers and The Trump Organization. He was also the design partner in charge of the Reade Chambers condominium at 71 Reade Street, and The Apthorp.[1]]

After edits by myself, DGG and other editors, the section looked like this on March 27:

Partners

* Alan Goldstein, a co-founder of the firm,, is a member of the American Institute of Architects (AIA), with 40 years of experience. He has collaborated with such notable architectural firms as Herzog & de Meuron, Renzo Piano's Building Workshop, Coop Himmelb(l)au, Pelli Clarke Pelli Architects, Studio Daniel Libeskind, and Cookfox. Goldstein has served on various technical committees established by the Real Estate Board of New York and the New York City Department of Buildings to help bring about revisions and updates to the New York City construction code. Alan has worked with g Silverstein Properties, El-Ad Group, The Naftali Group, Alexico, Toll Brothers, The Milstein Organization, Glenwood Management, The Continuum Company, CBSK Ironstate, Atlantic Realty Development Corporation, JD Carlisle Development, Red Apple Real Estate and Tishman Speyer.[citation needed]

* L. Stephen Hill, another co-founder, is also a member of the AIA, with more then 25 years of experience.[8] He has worked on a wide array of designs including high rise residential towers, mixed use hotel/residential/retail projects, mid rise, low income and luxury apartment buildings, historic renovations, and adaptive re-use projects. Additional project types include commercial office space and private residences. Hill has worked on 151 Maiden Lane for Fortis Property Group, One Riverside, The Rushmore and The Aldyn for Extell Development Company. Earlier projects include The Heritage, 220 Riverside Boulevard, 200 Riverside Boulevard, 180 Riverside Boulevard and 160 Riverside Boulevard for The Trump Organization, Hudson Waterfront, 33 West End Avenue for Atlantic Development. Additionally, he was involved in The Aston, the Acadia, The Caroline, One Nashua Street in Boston, The Remi and the renovation of the iconic Plaza Hotel.[citation needed]

* David West, the third co-founder, a member of the AIA, has over 30 years of experience. He has an extensive background in land use approvals including the ULURP process and Variances and Landmarks Commission Approvals, and has presented numerous projects at public hearings, community boards and to city agencies. He is frequently involved in projects from the earliest stages of land assembly, and has given numerous lectures and participated on panels at such institutions as the American Institute of Architects, New York City Department of City Planning, Real Estate Board of New York, New York University and Columbia University School of Real Estate. West has worked on projects with numerous notable New York firms and institutions such as: 363-365 Bond Street for The Lightstone Group, the six building master plan development of the former Mary Immaculate Hospital site in Jamaica, Queens for The Chetrit Group, Silverstein Properties, 605 West 42nd Street for The Moinian Group, 221 West 29th Street for CBSK Ironstate, El-Ad Group, Avalon Bay Properties, Jack Resnick & Sons, The Related Companies, Fisher Brothers and The Trump Organization. He was also the design partner in charge of the Reade Chambers condominium at 71 Reade Street, and The Apthorp Penthouses.[citation needed][2]

It was my belief that this reduced the amount of promotionalism signficantly, but it was this version that Deb objected to. Therefore, I have gone through the section and eliminnated any firm or building that did not have a WIkipedia article. The results are this:

Partners

The three co-founders of Goldstein, Hill and West are all members of the American Institute of Architects with considerable experience in their field.

* In his 40 years of experience, Alan Goldstein has collaborated with notable architectural firms such as Herzog & de Meuron, Renzo Piano's Building Workshop, Coop Himmelb(l)au, Pelli Clark Pelli, Studio Daniel Libeskind, and Cookfox. He has served on various technical committees established by the Real Estate Board of New York and the New York City Department of Buildings to work on revisions and updates to the New York City construction code, and has worked with developers such as Silverstein Properties, El-Ad Group, Toll Brothers, Glenwood Management Corp., and Tishman Speyer.[citation needed]

* L. Stephen Hill has over 25 years of experience.[8] He has worked on a wide array of designs including high rise residential towers, mixed use hotel/residential/retail projects, mid-rise, low income and luxury apartment buildings, historic renovations, adaptive re-use projects, commercial office space and private residences. ANong other projects, he has worked on One Riverside Drive and other projects for Extell Development Company. His earlier projects include a number of buldings in Riverside South for The Trump Organization, and Hudson Waterfront for Atlantic Development. Additionally, he was involved in the renovation of the iconic Plaza Hotel.[citation needed]

* In David West's 30 years of experience, he has accumulated an extensive background in land use approvals, including New York City's Uniform Land Use Review Procedure (ULURP), variances and New York City Landmarks Preservation Commission approvals. He has presented numerous projects at public hearings, community boards and to city agencies, and is frequently involved in projects from the earliest stages of land assembly. West has given numerous lectures and has participated on panels at such institutions as the American Institute of Architects, the New York City Department of City Planning, the Real Estate Board of New York, New York University and Columbia University School of Real Estate. West has worked on projects with numerous notable New York firms and institutions such as The Lightstone Group, Silverstein Properties, El-Ad Group, The Related Companies, Fisher Brothers and The Trump Organization. He was also the design partner in charge of The Apthorp Penthouses.[citation needed] [3]

It is my belief that the content of this section is now pertinent to the article without being promotional, although it still should be sourced. I do not believe that the section should be deleted, and certain do not believe that the article should be deleted either. If there are still concerns about the suitability of the material in this section, I ask that editors work collaboratively toward making it more neutral. If the subject of the article isn't deemed to be notable, I ask that the article be sent to AfD for community discussion, and not deleted outright. BMK (talk) 21:37, 11 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

PS I have no connection whatsoever with this firm, and can't even remember why I started editing the article - probably some building article I was working on led me here. BMK (talk) 23:50, 11 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • BMK, giving quotes always introduces the suspicion that you are altering the text to suit your thesis. If you link to specific edits there can be no such suspicion. Also, learn to create diff reports such as this. — RHaworth (talk · contribs) 23:03, 12 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Along with the comment above, RHaworth deleted the quoted sections in my first comment. I have restored them, as thee is no policy-based reason not to have them, and because I provided citations to the versions of the article they came from. RHworth was asked to come here by the admin User:Deb [4], who previously deleted the entire article as part of an editing dispute, instead of discussing the dispute on the talk page. The history of this can be found here and here.
    As I said above, if anyone has concerns about the Partners section, I am more than happy to discuss them here, on the talk page, where such discussions are intended to take place. Wholesale deletions, either of the section or of the entire article, without any discussion whatsoever are certainly not in the spirit of WP:Consensus. I have no interest in keeping the external issue going, I just want wants best for the article, but I suggest that if Deb is concerned about the language in the article, she neither use her admin powers to delete the article, nor WP:CANVASS friends, but instead come here and discuss her concerns, just as any other editor is obligated to do. BMK (talk) 23:44, 12 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I believe this is a sufficient reference for the 1st paragraph of the now-deleted "Partners" section: http://architectfinder.aia.org/frmFirmDetails.aspx?FirmID=F5125995-A649-446B-9F03-ADE5335A2427 JoeSperrazza (talk) 23:40, 12 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

That's not a secondary source as the entry is controlled by the firm. --NeilN talk to me 23:46, 12 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Perhaps, but my read of WP:ABOUTSELF (see below) leads me to believe it is OK. However, I don’t think the remainder of the Partners section can be supported by the following ref http://www.ghwarchitects.com/#/partners, yet iit clearly was used as a source):

Self-published and questionable sources may be used as sources of information about themselves, usually in articles about themselves or their activities, without the self-published source requirement that they be published experts in the field, so long as:

  • The material is neither unduly self-serving nor an exceptional claim.
  • It does not involve claims about third parties.
  • It does not involve claims about events not directly related to the source.
  • There is no reasonable doubt as to its authenticity.
  • The article is not based primarily on such sources.
[emphasis added]. If you accept that I'm right (even adding in just the 1st paragraph of the section, but removing the rest), I'm not sure the article has enough left to survive an WP:AFD.JoeSperrazza (talk) 23:53, 12 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
You're right, but I've removed a part that seemed a bit self-serving. --NeilN talk to me 00:02, 13 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I know when I'm licked

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I've worked my tail off editing this article down to a reasonable condition, and all anyone wants to do is chop it up with a cleaver, when all that's needed is some research a surgical knife., and some discussion between editors. I give up, you folks have made me feel like shit. I've seen blatant abuse of admin power and canvassing by an admin, and I'm frankly tired of all of it, the article isn't worth it. Do what you want with it, I really don't care, it canbbe just another piece of shit Wikipedia article. I'm talking it off my watchlist. BMK (talk) 23:50, 12 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@Beyond My Ken: I'm really sorry you feel that way. I think we've actually made some progress with just a limited amount of discussion. Replacing the bulk of the Partners section, which appeared to be sourced to the partnership's website, will take some research, and hence some time. Best regards, JoeSperrazza (talk) 00:27, 13 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 29 November 2016

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The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: not moved rebranding is not supported by any reliable sources. Primary sources including company website and social media still uses the current article title. Until reliable sources can be provided regarding the name change, it should stay where it is. (non-admin closure) Tiggerjay (talk) 00:05, 13 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]


Goldstein, Hill & West Architects → Hill West Architects – Company name change and rebranding 158.106.205.50 (talk) 19:59, 29 November 2016 (UTC) --Relisting. JudgeRM (talk to me) 21:57, 6 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Relisting comment. The website still uses the former, current name. Otherwise, I would've moved this as uncontroversial. They may have not updated their website yet, but I don't know. Relisting the discussion one more week for more comments. JudgeRM (talk to me) 21:57, 6 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Conflict of interest

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At least one major contributor to this article appears to have a close personal or professional connection to the topic, and thus to have a conflict of interest. Conflict-of-interest editors are strongly discouraged from editing the article directly, but are always welcome to propose changes on the talk page (i.e., here). You can attract the attention of other editors by putting {{request edit}} (exactly so, with the curly parentheses) at the beginning of your request, or by clicking the link on the lowest yellow notice above. Requests that are not supported by independent reliable sources are unlikely to be accepted.

Please also note that our Terms of Use state that "you must disclose your employer, client, and affiliation with respect to any contribution for which you receive, or expect to receive, compensation." An editor who contributes as part of his or her paid employment is required to disclose that fact. Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 11:51, 27 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

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