Talk:Horst Mahler

A fact from Horst Mahler appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the Did you know column on 16 November 2007. The text of the entry was as follows:

Did you know... that German lawyer Horst Mahler had for his own lawyer the future Chancellor of Germany Gerhard Schröder?

A record of the entry may be seen at Wikipedia:Recent additions/2007/November.

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What is microeconomic law?

The text mentions microeconomic law. What is that? Geo8rge (talk) 22:04, 4 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

a germanism for business law —Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.2.12.48 (talk) 16:35, 8 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Can't be a germanism; mikros and oeconomeia are Greek words. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.131.65.125 (talk) 16:33, 5 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Inclusion in WikiProject Judaism?

I do not think he should be in WikiProject Judaism. Geo8rge (talk) 22:07, 4 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

sds

I always thought all members of the sds were expelled from the spd automatically. "You cannot have it both ways" and that was it.--Radh (talk) 06:56, 1 August 2009 (UTC) It seems the SPD had established a new student organization (for anticommunist socialist students) before membership in the SDS was declared un-SPD-ig. So the more "right-wing" SPD students still had a place to go and all the others could safely be thrown out.--Radh (talk) 17:10, 1 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

kpd/ao

I have inserted a sentence or two, to show there was some time and development of ideas between his raf activities and the npd. There also seems to have been some cooperation between the Berlin founded, then Ruhrgebiet based kpd (kpd/ao) and grassroots nationalrevolutionary groups. I do not know if Mahler was already involved in these "Querfront" activities, but militant anti-russian maoism surely was an ideological bridge towards the future for H. M.--Radh (talk) 17:25, 1 August 2009 (UTC).[reply]

reasons for incarceration

The reasons for incarceration should be stipulated more clearly. Is it true that he's in prison just for expressing his beliefs? --41.19.24.65 (talk) 09:04, 29 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

No, it is not true. He is in prison under the criminal offence of Volksverhetzung. --Insert coins (talk) 11:04, 29 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Which in fact is nothing else but expressing certain beliefs that some minority does not like. So yes, he is in prison just for expressing his beliefs. As are many others by the way.62.226.23.179 (talk) 20:16, 4 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Not, it is not. Volksverhetzung is defined, inter allia, as calling for violence to be committed against a group of people. This is not an opinion, but a crime. Of course, by the way you argument I assume you would be very comfortable with violence being committed against a certain group of people, that is to say, the Jews. Would you like violence to be committed againt the group *you* belong to? --Insert coins (talk) 20:30, 4 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

But that, "calling for violence to be committed against a group of people", wasn't the actual reason for the charges against him. Or can you show us a quote where he did do so and that indeed the charges were laid against him solely for this reason? He got prosecuted for openly expressing his disbelief in the Holocaust narrative or specific parts thereof. So to answer the initial question: Yes, he's in prions just for expressing his beliefs. --196.2.126.173 (talk) 13:49, 16 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The problem wasn't his disbelief in the Holocaust. The problem was that he wrote sentences such as these, and even repeated them in court:

"With that I was released of the miserable ethical view of history and became able to think the thought that there is reason in the annihilation of the Jews [...]"

"Billions of people would be prepared to forgive Hitler and the Germans the genocide of the Jews, if only he had committed it, because they cannot imagine any other solution of the Jew question but the murder of the Jews."

So basically he said, the Holocaust didn't happen, but if it had happened it wouldn't be a problem either. He also wrote strange things about the relation between Germans and Jews being similar to that between Christ and Anti-Christ, and similar crap that made it clear that he meant it.

No, the expressed disbelief was part and parcel of it. That he stated that many people would have loved Hitler killing the Jews is simply a fact. And the legislation isn't even aimed at such statements given that many Jewish leaders make similar statements. --41.151.91.30 (talk) 20:22, 16 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

By the way, this talk page is meant to be used only for discussions about improvements to the article.Hans Adler 22:51, 16 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Pgg804 (talk) 10:35, 5 August 2011 (UTC)I don't see those singled out sentences as evidence of any kind of hatred. You have to see in what context he said that. Jewish leaders constantly make similar statements claiming the whole world hates Jews and Jews have made hateful statements towards others without being imprisoned - in fact they do it often. The above poster is correct. He is imprisoned for his beliefs. And you can twist and turn the facts any way you wish and then call the victims the "haters" if you have the power. Powerful Jewish organizations have pushed western governments to spread hatred of Germans for more than 60 years, saying the most awful things about Germans and at the same time saying if anyone said these things weren't true, that "denier" is spreading hate. They have turned the expression "calling for violence" and "racial hatred" on their heads. If anyone holds "racial hatred" and is "calling for violence" its the Jewish organizaions saying all the Germans are murderers. And the hypocrisy of these liars is absolutely amazing. They have built huge holocaust musems in the USA, which is thousands of miles for where WW II was fought, and the Americans have no memorials for the 300 years of slavery and the genocide against the American Indian. I would suggest reading Norman Finkelstein's books on how the holocaust is used so Israel can murder Palestinians and have the rest of the world say nothing and how Jewish organizations can blackmail and extort Europeans out of billions of dollars.[reply]

The fact remains that Mahler didn't call for violence against Jews. His persecution is due to calling the Jewish Holocaust narrative into question, which naturally is an opinion and would fall under freedom of expression in normal, non-totalitarian countries and law. --41.150.204.166 (talk) 17:25, 17 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Quote

The quote

The destruction of Jews is an act of reason... Billions of people would be ready to forgive Hitler if only he had committed the murder of the Jews" ("In der Vernichtung der Juden waltet Vernunft...Milliarden Menschen wären bereit, Hitler zu verzeihen, wenn er nur den Judenmord begangen hätte")

gives the impression that it comes from the same sentence or paragraph while in fact it is an incorrectly quoted construction of parts of sentences that are eleven pages (!) apart. Here is what Mahler actually wrote:

Damit war ich von der elenden moralischen Geschichtsbetrachtung erlöst und fähig geworden, den Gedanken zu denken, daß in der Vernichtung der Juden Vernunft waltet ebenso wie in der Vernichtung der Ureinwohner Amerikas oder der Entvölkerung Afrikas durch die Jüdischen Sklavenhändler mit schätzungsweise 100 bis 150 Millonen gewaltsam beendeter Menschenleben.
— Horst Mahler, Das Ende der moralischen Geschichtsbetrachtung führt zur Antwort auf die Judenfrage, p.7

Milliarden von Menschen wären bereit, Hitler und dem Deutschen Volk den Völkermord an den Juden zu verzeihen, wenn er ihn denn begangen hätte, nur weil sie sich keine andere Lösung der Judenfrage vorstellen können, als die Ermordung der Juden.
— Horst Mahler, Das Ende der moralischen Geschichtsbetrachtung führt zur Antwort auf die Judenfrage, p.19

The link doesn't work anymore, but I found another one: http://archive.org/details/DasEndeDerMoralischenGeschichtsbetrachtung --41.150.204.166 (talk) 17:20, 17 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

This roughly translates to:

And with that I was released from the wretched moral view of history and put into the position to think the thought that reason is at work in the destruction of the Jews, just as in the destruction of the aborigines of America or the depopulation of Africa through jewish slave traders with estimated 100 to 150 million forcefully ended human lifes.
— p.7

Billions of people would be ready to forgive Hitler and the German peoples the genocide of the Jews, if only he had committed it, just because they can't imagine another solution to the jewish question than to murder the Jews.
— p.19

This is an example of why newspapers are not reliable sources and I suggest that the quote be changed or removed lest Wikipedia becomes a mere black/grey propaganda tool. 62.226.14.154 (talk) 07:50, 5 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

And isn't his afrocentrism funny - jewish slavers, 100, 000, 000 dead, the canard about the eradication of Native Americans is a German commonplace.--Radh (talk) 15:01, 6 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

And the fact remains: The quote is false. Apparently you rather delete comments and make comments about texts you probably haven't read instead of assuring that Wikipedia does not use wrong information. 62.226.27.132 (talk) 22:31, 6 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The IP was probably right about this. I found a small number of sources that have the quotation in this form, with the ellipsis, but it seems to be based ultimately on the following two sentences from his pamphlet about the "answer to the Jew question":

"Damit war ich von der elenden moralischen Geschichtsbetrachtung erlöst und fähig geworden, den Gedanken zu denken, daß in der Vernichtung der Juden Vernunft waltet ebenso wie in der Vernichtung der Ureinwohner Amerikas oder der Entvölkerung Afrikas durch die Jüdischen Sklavenhändler mit schätzungsweise 100 bis 150 Millonen gewaltsam beendeter Menschenleben. "

"Milliarden von Menschen wären bereit, Hitler und dem Deutschen Volk den Völkermord an den Juden zu verzeihen, wenn er ihn denn begangen hätte, nur weil sie sich keine andere Lösung der Judenfrage vorstellen können, als die Ermordung der Juden."

It's hard to tell from the electronic copy I found, but there seem to be many pages between these sentences. They have also been abbreviated in such a way that one can misunderstand the second. The abbreviation of the first has taken a liberty with the text, but it has been reported that he actually said it in that form in court. Of course it's also possible that he said the second sentence in court in that form, and shortly after the first. Here are translations of the complete sentences from the pamphlet:

"With that I was released of the miserable ethical view of history and became able to think the thought that there is reason in the annihilation of the Jews as in the annihilation of the natives of America or the depopulation of Africa by Jewish slave traders with approximately 100 to 150 millions of violently terminated human lives."

"Billions of people would be prepared to forgive Hitler and the Germans the genocide of the Jews, if only he had committed it, because they cannot imagine any other solution of the Jew question but the murder of the Jews."

By the way, in the first sentence he is referring to a sentence by Hegel which he says he understood, apparently enabling him to see history as something that can be faked at will [my interpretation]:

"Was vernünftig ist, das ist wirklich; und was wirklich ist, das ist vernünftig."

"What is reasonable, is real; and what is real, is reasonable."

Hans Adler 17:46, 7 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry for the duplication. I didn't read this section closely before writing my comment. Now we have two independent translations. Hans Adler 17:49, 7 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

It is interesting to see that the source for our potentially misleading original version of the quotation, which makes Mahler look less of a crackpot, is Die Welt, a right-wing newspaper that focuses on opinion rather than facts. Hans Adler 18:06, 7 November 2010 (UTC) Pgg804 (talk) 12:07, 5 August 2011 (UTC)I would not use the term "right wing newspaper". People see that and they think its run by neo-NAZIS or the Ku Klux Klan. Die Welt is one of the most respected newspapers in Germany.[reply]

"one of the most respected"? Die Welt? Surely you are joking. It's well known that they deal in opinion, not facts. E.g. it's the only major German newspaper that seems to be pushing anti-science views on global warming. Maybe one of the most respected newspapers owned by Axel Springer AG... Anyway, right-wing doesn't imply extremism. The German Wikipedia calls Die Welt "bürgerlich-konservativ" and "wirtschaftsliberal", and I believe that's fully consistent with "right-wing", only more precise. Hans Adler 22:32, 5 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Die Welt is a respected newspaper, but also: democratic right wing is allowed (Hans Adler is right there)--Radh (talk) 16:41, 18 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that the quote should be removed or put back into its original context just to meet Wiki's standards. (The original quotes do not take away anything from Mahler's madness. Die Welt is right-wing but democratic and a reliable source. "the canard about the eradication of Native Americans is a German commonplace." please stop to oversimplify.Streifenleopard (talk) 18:48, 10 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

good

very good evidence of communism=fascism — Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.212.122.76 (talk) 07:01, 19 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

only when you're a nutjob! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.28.244.122 (talk) 06:58, 19 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

only proof german far-left and far-right are anti-semitic08:29, 20 February 2014 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.192.146.247 (talk)

Wrong image

The second image doesn't depict a RAF manifesto. It's the title page of the traffic code of the GDR, hence the hammer and sickle logo. The RAF logo was an AK 47 in a pentagram with the acronym 'RAF' in the middle. Krautscan (talk) 18:52, 27 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

weapon of RAF logo is a Heckler&Koch MP5 not an AK47178.210.114.106 (talk) 18:26, 20 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Sylvia Stolz

Sylvia Stolz was his companion, but not his wife. Or does someone have a reliable source? --House1630 (talk) 19:00, 7 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

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jewish descent?

can anybody verify this ?

everybody can claim to have jewish roots

Update April 05, 2023: Persistent attempt to add this claim in the categories. Will not be accepted without an neutral source. It is not sufficient that Mahler himself made such a statement in an interview.--Nillurcheier (talk) 08:01, 5 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

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Released

Mahler was released from prison on 27 October 2020. See: https://www.sueddeutsche.de/politik/mahler-neonazismus-haftstrafe-1.5095092 Someone Not Awful (talk) 04:10, 13 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]