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Message to user
I've put a message on the talk page of the user in question, which is usually worth doing in cases like this. Let's see what happens. DJ Clayworth 19:17, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)
(Please note that I am not sure of the accuracy of such quotes, and any updates and other quotes are welcomed)
- "Celtic Jerseys are not for second best, They don't shrink to fit inferior players" Jock Stein
- "I don't believe everything Bill tells me about his players. Had they been that good, they'd not only have won the European Cup but the Ryder Cup, the Boat Race and even the Grand National!" Celtic Football Club manager Jock Stein on Bill Shankly -- Paddy :-) 17:55, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
- I think that this is a good idea, Paddy. Just verify the quotes first, so that you can prove that he really said them, then put them back in the article. Oh and we only sign stuff that we add to this discussion page -- not stuff that we put in the main article. Cheers -- Derek Ross | Talk 07:05, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
- I do apologise I am new to this and this is the first thing I have updated, I admit I should have read some Frequently asked questions and some rules or guidelines first, I sincerely apologise.
- I will find it difficult to produce hard evidence, however I am 110% sure he did say them, but I will try anyway.
- First quote "Celtic Jerseys are not for second best, They don't shrink to fit inferior players" Jock Stein is mentioned in a lot of Celtic supporters' websites, and is a quote I have heard various times. The fact that shirts with this quote are being sold does mean that this quote has a historic significance. Not The View (Celtic Fanzine).
- Other websites which feature this quote include the Jock Stein's Celtic Supporters Club in Melbourne (Australia)
- On the second quote, the fact that even the Liverpool's official website (Bill Shankly, who the quote talks about was arguably the best manager in Liverpool's history) has that quote, in my opinion and interpretation means that this quote is historically recognised by both sets of supporters (Celtic and Liverpool) therefore making it believable and somehow showing it has been said.
- Other websites where this quote can be found include This one Another Liverpool Supporters website
- I will post all evidence I keep on finding here, and hopefully soon it will be enough for this quotes to be featured on this website.
- I think the idea of resources being provided and facts needed to be proved is brilliant, as it makes this website really accurate.
- Finally I would like to congratulate everyone for making this website an excellent one, I think it is brilliant and I use it to clear any doubt I may have.
- I am still confused, should I signed this here? I will do it just in case.
- Paddy :-) 01:21, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
- Another quote which I would like to add.
- "We did it by playing football. Pure, beautiful, inventive football". - Jock Stein, Lisbon, 1967 (After wining the European Cup)
- Celtic's "Year of Triumph" - the Lisbon Lions & 1967 Website, by Mike Garrett.
Adding the Quotes to the Article
I have just read the Editing Policy and I am still not clear on how long do I have to wait for the quotes to be added to the main article, or who should add them.
There is something on the Introduction we are told...
"Don't be afraid to edit articles—anyone can edit, and we encourage you to be bold (but please don't vandalize)! Find something that can be improved, either in content, grammar or formatting, and fix it."
"You can't break Wikipedia. Anything can be fixed or improved later. So go ahead, edit an article and help make Wikipedia the best information source on the Internet!"
So I figured out I might as well add the quotes to the main article.
One more quote added.
- "Football is nothing without Fans" Jock Stein 1
The "Big Jock Knew" Controversy
- "There was always talk around Celtic about Torbett and boys, but nothing seemed to be done until Jock Stein found out. He kicked Torbett out, but it was still kept quiet. All the directors and lots of others knew why Torbett got the boot, but it was swept under the carpet."
The Daily Record,John McLuskey former Celtic youth player and brother of former Celtic player George McLuskey in an interview with Anna Smith of the Daily Record 12/08/1996
All libraries in Scotland have back issues of newspapers. Phone the daily record and ask them to send you a copy. I have made it my lifes work? You seem to devote more time finding reasons to keep it out.Karatekid7 01:06, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
- Sorry, KK7, but checking your contributions, you've done nothing else but add vandalism and slander to pages related to Celtic and "Catholics" since May this year. Not a single positive contribution. How sad.
- THIRTEEN times you've added this to the JS page. I have reverted it THREE times.
- In your earlier edits, you included the phrase JS "covered up...for 20 years until his death" - which proves: you can't even count.
- I stated to your "co-conspirator" B the B that I had no real objection to a mention of the Torbett affair in the article - but certainly not in the introduction - is this really one of the most important things to say about JS in a summary of his career?
- However, what I will not accept is any attempt to smear Jock Stein with any of this "Big Jock Knew" garbage. The man is dead (dying taking OUR country to the World Cup), and we will never know what he did and did not know, as we can't ask him.
- Answer this simple question please - what date Daily Record? Camillustalk|contribs 14:11, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
I can't count? It always seems strange to me that you make personal attacks. I may not be able to count(sigh) but you obviosly have serious problems reading as the date is mentioned.Karatekid7 15:46, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
- Very clever KK7 - If you care to look at the original edit, when I asked the question initially, you hadn't added the exact date - only after, without signing the edit, so it was less likely to be noticed. I think it's a bit rich of you to complain about personal attacks.
- It is a bit rich of you making attacks when you clearly cannot read. Don't try to say I tricked you.
- This is getting silly. If I can't read, how am I responding to you? As shown above, you added the date after I asked you. I didn't notice that you subsequently added the date. Anyone reading this would have no way of knowing it even was you that added the quote and the reference as you never signed it. Anyway, this is going nowhere. I'm starting a new topic (see below).
It is your responsibility to provide sources to justify claims. If you want the information in you get a copy of it with verifiable information as to date of publication, etc. All Camillus is doing is following Wikipedia rules on keeping unsourced information out of articles. FearÉIREANN\(caint) 01:13, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
I have quoted my source. Seems strange however that you banned me even when the sources were clearly indicated.Karatekid7 01:18, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
Proposals for a solution
As I have stated before, I have no real objection to the Torbett affair being referred to in the article, however, certainly not in the introduction, as it can't be claimed to be one of the most important features of Stein's life (unless you're completely biased, or one of those people who have nothing positive to add).
However, I will not accept speculation about how much Stein knew about the affair. All we know is that when he found out there was something wrong, he kicked Torbett out. The details only came out at the trial in 1996, 22 years after Torbett had been kicked out, and 11 years after Stein had died. For all we know, Stein may have acted on a suspicion only; often when children are abused, they are afraid to say anything, so it is possible that Stein had no real proof of the abuse. Whatever the truth is, we will never know, as the man is long dead. There is no place for speculation (let alone slander) in an encyclopedia.
The above quote, even if verified, is not acceptable in this article. It is pure speculation, many years after the event. It might be permissible in the Torbett article, as he was the one directly involved.
I will welcome comments and suggestions. Hopefully this won't degenerate into a slanging match between KK7 and me, but will actually arrive at some compromise, or concensus.
- I found an excellent resource on line where you can look up newspapers from all over the world - it's www.highbeam.com.
- You have to login to see the full text of articles, and enter your credit card details, but you can cancel it within 7 days.
- So, I found the article cited above, by entering "Torbett Celtic" into the search engine.
- McCluskey continues:
- "It took me a long time to come to terms with what happened and understand it wasn't my fault."
- "I didn't even tell my brother George about Torbett until last week."
- Which underlines the point I made about the possibility that Stein acted on suspicion alone, as JMcC obviously didn't tell him, not even telling his own brother until 22 years later.
- Interestingly, McCluskey still loves Celtic, despite what happened:
- "I still love Celtic. I go to Parkhead every week and I'll be a Celtic man until I die.
Alan Brazil says in another article in the same issue: "It's taken me 23 years to tell what he did to me. All my life I've been too embarrassed to talk about it."
- Again, even one of the three victims was too "embarassed" to talk about it at the time.
In another article in the same issue there are these quotations:
- ...the victims were too ashamed to admit they had been violated by someone they believed in, so they suffered in silence.
- Again, my point about how much was known at the time, other than "rumours".
- The Celtic board were aware of the rumours about Torbett, who was general manager of the boys' club.
- But only one man took him on.
- Jock Stein, who saw the youngsters as the lifeblood of the club, gave him his marching orders.
Later in 1991 (and this obviously has nothing to do with Stein, being dead by then), another man, Frank Cairney, who was general manager of the Boy's Club, quit:
- "His resignation followed an alleged incident involving a young Celt. US police investigated, but the case never came to court because the boy wouldn't make a complaint."
In various articles, Alan Brazil and James McGrory, two of Torbett's victims, make the allegation that the Celtic board "covered-up" the scandal.
So does Hugh Birt, who took over from Torbett. He says that when he started, Stein told him that the club's reputation "must be kept clean at all times."
It is important to say that all three mentioned this only at the time of the trial, in 1996.
I hope that KK7 and others will appreciate that I have no interest in "covering up" or "censoring" information about this affair, having spent this time researching it, and posting the issue here.
However, I stand by what I said about the unacceptability of slander and speculation about Stein's role. I think that my research proves that the only thing we can be sure of is that Stein (literally, according to Birt) "kicked out" the beast, and that it is impossible to know how much Stein knew, as even the victims themselves were too embarassed or ashamed to tell anyone until 1996.
Finally, I would say that paedophiles can be found in all walks of life, and that everyone should be careful of just looking for them in the "enemy" camp. As a small point, and in no way to mitigate Torbetts crimes, I would say that he was accused of "fondling" and "kissing" the boys, so the old chant of "Who shagged all the boys" is an exaggeration.
Quite simply, there has to be a mention of it somewhere. It is a FACT that there are ALLEGATIONS that 'BJK' as they say.Archibald99 23:47, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
- No, the only place you'll hear "BJK" allegations are on Follow Follow etc. ie. from fans of Stein's club's biggest rivals. If some Celtic fans posted allegations about Rangers, or Hibs fans posted allegations about Hearts, would these be acceptable as references? Of course not, and quite rightly so. Archibald99, you quoted my remark above that 10 years after Stein died, two of those involved are reported by newspapers as claiming that the Celtic Board covered-up the scandal. As I mentioned above, the only thing we do know is that Stein booted Torbett out. The players involved didn't speak about it till 10 years after Stein's death - one didn't even tell his brother - so we have no way of knowing what Stein knew. The only people who want to add these unverifiable claims are Rangers fans - I ask them, imagine some Celtic fans posted unverifiable allegations about say, Jock Wallace, and the only source was ETims.com or some such - you'd be up-in-arms, and I'd support you. Please give it up - these "allegations" are, and will always remain, completely unverifiable Camillus (talk) 23:46, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
This is an encyclopaedia - not a forum for speculation. I think that an article about someone that is dead should only include verifiable information about their life. If, after they have died, a verifiable fact about something arises which is relevant to the article, then it should be included. But the only verifiable fact is that Torbett was kicked out, and taken on its own, is not really something that should be included here. It is possible that Stein was acting on an uncorroborated suspicion which, had he been challenged in the courts, he might have been unable to justify. It might be the case that he was the only person prepared to act in those circumstances, sticking his neck out and taking a big risk for what he believed to be right. That is my perception of what probably happened, but that is my opinion and not the basis of an encyclopaedia article.184.108.40.206 (talk) 11:49, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
Stein clearly had some information on the matter and the charge against him must be that he took unofficial action rather than taking his information (even if it was at that point uncorroborated) to the police, who could have then investigated. If the matter had been dealt with properly at that stage it might well have all come out much sooner. Torbett returned to Celtic Boys Club after being kicked out and that could well have been prevented if the police had been brought in at this much earlier stage. BBO (talk) 16:12, 26 April 2009
I'm aware this thread hasn't been touched for a while but regarding the above arguments, I do think that the whole BJK affair should be included for encyclopedic purposes. When it comes to sources for it, there are a few in archive websites that can be used and a few in the Big Jock Knew Wikipedia page. The C of E. God Save The Queen! (talk) 19:23, 11 February 2012 (UTC)
Can someone please clarify something for me - re. Jock's early history - I have added a link to the Blantyre Vics page on Wikipedia, but as a boy from Blantyre I was always told that Jock played for Balntyre Celtic and NOT the Vics (in fact on the page I have done for Blantyre Celtic I have stated this as fact but stand to be corrected). So either way the info here or on the Blantyre Celtic page isn't correct. Celtic fans - feel free to add a shirt image on the Blantyre Celtic page - I don't know how to!! Ianguy 00:00, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
I am inclined to seek semi-protection of this article in order to cut down the addition of the speculative child abuse material. That will at least prevent anons and new accounts from adding it. Comments ? -- Derek Ross | Talk 15:08, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
Knight him anyway
So what if he lost knighthood to the "Battle of the River Plate". I'm calling him Sir Jock Stein anyhow. 220.127.116.11 02:32, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
I've undone this, not because I disagree with the sentiment but because its execution was amateurish and has led to a rather broken discussion history. If removal of policy-violating commentary is to be performed it should be taken to the appropriate parties and done properly. For now, I've restored what appears to be the most coherent version of this page's discussion history and tidied it a bit for readability. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 16:59, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
Can this article and talk page be unprotected now so that unregistered users can edit and make comments? We can quickly restore protection if necessary. --TS 19:58, 4 September 2009 (UTC)