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Talk:Kuwasi Balagoon

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Expansion

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@CeltBrowne, nice expansion! Have you considered nominating the article for Good Article status? czar 05:01, 11 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Truthfully, I wouldn't have considered it because I'm not really familiar with the parameters for a GA nom for a shorter article, but since you seem to have considerable expertise in GA noms, I suppose I could put it forward and see what feedback I receive, and if it requires just a bit more work to get it over the line, I could put that time in. CeltBrowne (talk) 06:42, 11 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Sounds great and let me know if I can help! Main question would be whether all major sources are included for purposes of breadth (WP:GACR)—I haven't looked into that but I'd say it looks pretty good right now. czar 14:26, 11 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@CeltBrowne: You should give some sections of it a rewrite, as there appear to be sentences copied directly from one of the sources without attribution. [1] Grnrchst (talk) 08:55, 12 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@CeltBrowne: I was doing some spot-checks after noticing the page went up for GA review, just noticed the sentence: "Shakur had been imprisoned there following..." and the paragraph "In January 1982, Balagoon was captured..." were missing citations. Otherwise, the page is very well written, if you need any more help with the page now or during GA review just ping me.
Cheers, Etriusus 20:44, 24 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

GA Review

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This review is transcluded from Talk:Kuwasi Balagoon/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Mike Christie (talk · contribs) 16:36, 27 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]


I'll review this. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 16:36, 27 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Images are suitably tagged. Researchgate is deprecated but here it's only being used to host a paper published elsewhere, which is OK.

  • I don't think we can use the Youtube video as a source. See WP:RS/PS: "Most videos on YouTube are anonymous, self-published, and unverifiable, and should not be used at all. Content uploaded from a verified official account, such as that of a news organization, may be treated as originating from the uploader and therefore inheriting their level of reliability. However, many YouTube videos from unofficial accounts are copyright violations and should not be linked from Wikipedia, according to WP:COPYLINK."
  • What makes kersplebedeb.com a reliable source?
  • "the National Guard was sent into Maryland for a year as a result": suggest putting a date on this.
  • Book titles in running text should be italicized. Titles of non-book writings should either be italicized if they're more like a book or in quotes if not. I would italicize The Crusader for example.
  • "arrested on bank robbery charges in Newark, New Jersey": the arrest was in NJ? Or the robbery? Sounds like it was the robbery, in which case I'd suggest "arrested on charges of having robbed a bank in Newark, New Jersey".
  • "Balagoon and fellow panther Sekou Odinga were accused of attempting to ambush and kill New York City police officers and stopped only by the intervention of more officers on the scene." The second half of this makes no syntactic sense -- I think you mean something like "Balagoon and fellow panther Sekou Odinga were accused of making an attempt to ambush and kill New York City police officers; the accusation claimed that they were stopped only by the intervention of more officers on the scene"? I changed it to "making an attempt" to make it clear we're talking about a specific incident, and then changed the second half to reflect what I think must be intended. I didn't want to copyedit this in in case I'm misinterpreting.
  • "he was sentenced to a term of between 23 and 29 years": can we get the date of sentencing?
  • We only have two sentences on the Brink's robbery, but there are a few more details about Balagoon's involvement in that article. Any reason we can't use some of that material here? Sourcing should be obtainable from that article, if necessary. We don't want to dupliate that article, but some expansion in this article seems worth it.
  • The lead is a little short; I think it could easily be expanded with some of the material in the body.

-- Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 18:46, 27 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I've implemented all of these recommendations with the exception of the first one relating to the use of a youtube video as source. I'm hoping to find an alternative source for the same video which doesn't break copyright. The origin of the video, I'm pretty positive, is WPIX out of New York City. If I can't find an alternative source, I wonder is there any way we might be able to salvage the information? I think the interview gives some contrasting insight into Balagoon away from the other sources, which all tend to view Balagoon in a sympathetic light. As it makes for a better counterbalance in the article, I'd like to retain the information if possible. CeltBrowne (talk) 03:58, 28 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The other changes are fine. You might try posting at WP:RSN to see if there's another way to cite the WPIX interview. I'll leave this GA open for a week or so while you follow up; let me know what you find out. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 12:42, 28 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
For the sake of the GAN, I have removed the WPIX Interview.
As far as the Brinks robbery/trial, is there anything specifically you want to see added? CeltBrowne (talk) 20:41, 30 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
No, I just thought there was room to add a bit more, and I see you've added some of that material. I'm going to go ahead and pass this now; if you think there's more to add that's up to you. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 20:46, 30 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for your guidance CeltBrowne (talk) 20:58, 30 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Spotchecks

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CeltBrowne, I realized after I promoted this to GA that I should have been doing spotchecks on the sources. I've now checked a few citations and have questions about some of them:

  • FN 2 cites "In February 1969, Balagoon and fellow New York BPP member Richard Harris were arrested in Newark, New Jersey on bank robbery charges. On 2 April 1969 21 Panther leaders and organizers (including Balagoon and Harris) were indicted, and another 12 were arrested, on conspiracy charges in a 30-count indictment in what became known as the Panther 21 trial." As far as I can see, the source doesn't mention the date of Balagoon's and Harris's arrest, or the 2 April 1969 date. I'm having a hard time assembling the other information as well -- if there are 33 total as our article says I don't see how to make that count match.
  • FN 8 cites "Pratt was a popular figure amongst the New York members of the Panthers, and in 1997 his conviction for that murder was overturned." The source doesn't say he was a popular figure.

I checked and verified a couple of others and will look at a few more. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 17:20, 24 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Here's another:

  • FN 3 cites "Amongst the charges were conspiracy to bomb the New York Botanical Gardens and local police stations as well as to assassinate police officers. Following their arrest, most of the defendants were released on $100,000 bail, however, Balagoon was held without bail because of more serious charges levelled against him. Balagoon and fellow panther Sekou Odinga were accused of making an attempt to ambush and kill New York City police officers; the accusation claimed that they were stopped only by the intervention of more officers on the scene. Defence Attorneys counterargued that this accusation was based on the witness testimony of BPP member Joan Bird, who they alleged was beaten by police until she agreed to state that." The source only covers the last few words of this.

-- Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 17:49, 24 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

As far as the 1969/1970 period goes, I have to confess that even I was getting confused about the chronological order of events while writing the article. I did my best to place things in the correct order based on New York Times articles. One of the issues is that the media's attention at the time was on the "Panther 21" and then Balagoon was split off from them, leaving him a somewhat sidelined figure.
As far as FN 8 goes, I would presume I got that from the Umoja source. I have a (bad) habit of mirroring the language of authors I'm citing, and in my own writing voice I would hesitate to use the term "[person] was a popular figure", so if I'm thinking if I did use that phrase, I'm almost directly quoting a source. I'll try and go back and find the specific line.
FN 3 comes from New York Times articles; I might need to go back and add more citation links, but all of that paragraph is myself trying to mirror things alleged by the NYT, particularly the idea that lives were only spared by the intervention of the police.
I'm currently swamped with work at the moment so it'll be next week at the earlier before I can perform any of this.
Regards, CeltBrowne (talk) 20:53, 24 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
No worries; I'll check in with you in a couple of weeks if you haven't had time to get to this by then. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 21:45, 24 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
CeltBrowne, just checking in to see if you've had a chance to lok at these again. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 20:58, 7 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I've now added more referencing for the sections you've called attention to. CeltBrowne (talk) 01:55, 12 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

CeltBrowne, thanks for doing that. Rechecking, it looks like this helps but several details are still not sourced:

  • FN 2 cites "In February 1969, Balagoon and fellow New York BPP member Richard Harris were arrested in Newark, New Jersey on bank robbery charges." I don't see the arrest date in the source, and the paragraph starting "In addition" implies it must have been either April 1969 or November 1969.
  • FNs 1 & 2 cite "On 2 April 1969 21 Panther leaders and organizers (including Balagoon and Harris) were indicted, and another 12 were arrested, on conspiracy charges in a 30-count indictment in what became known as the Panther 21 trial." The NY Times source seems to say the 30-count indictment was on November 30. For FN 1, can you narrow the page range that supports this? 24 pages is too many to easily be used for verification.
  • FNs 2 & 3 cite "Amongst the charges were conspiracy to bomb the New York Botanical Gardens and local police stations as well as to assassinate police officers." Verified.
  • FN 2 cites "Following their arrest, most of the defendants were released on $100,000 bail, however, Balagoon was held without bail because of more serious charges levelled against him." They were granted bail, but as far as I can see the source doesn't say they were able to make bail. I don't see anything in the source about Balagoon's bail being denied.
  • FN 4 cites "Balagoon and fellow panther Sekou Odinga were accused of making an attempt to ambush and kill New York City police officers; the accusation claimed that they were stopped only by the intervention of more officers on the scene. Defence Attorneys counterargued that this accusation was based on the witness testimony of BPP member Joan Bird, who they alleged was beaten by police until she agreed to state that." The source verifies that Bird alleges she was beaten by police, and that the attorneys used that in court, but not the nature of the accusations or the mention of the intervention of more officers.
  • FN 1 cites "Pratt was a popular figure amongst the New York members of the Panthers, and in 1997 his conviction for that murder was overturned." I searched the source for "Pratt" and didn't find any mentions; am I missing something?

I know you're busy; take a look when you get a chance. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 10:24, 12 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  • Re: Richard Harris arrest, Umoja states
Balagoon and New York BPP member Richard Harris were arrested in February, 1969 on bank robbery charges in Newark, New Jersey.
Umoja wasn't cited for this, so I've added Umoja for that sentence. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 15:06, 13 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Re: Date of Indictment, Umoja says 2 April 1969 Umoja wrote:
On April 2, 1969, less than one year after the founding of the New York chapter of the BPP, 21 Panther leaders and organizers (including Balagoon and Harris) were indicted, and 12 arrested on conspiracy charges in a 30-count indictment. This case became known as the case of the New York Panther 21.
Also, this [2] New York Times source also suggests an April indiction
  • Re:Bail, Umoja (himself citing the NY Times) states the following:
After their arrest, most of the defendants were released on $100,000 bail. Balagoon was held without bail (NYT, 1971, 33; Kaplan, 1969; “Panther 21 Trial,” 1970).
Am I confusing what is meant by "held without bail" and "denied bail"?
No, the problem was that you weren't citing Umoja for that. I've added Umoja to that sentence. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 15:13, 13 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Newton’s expulsion of Pratt created confusion within the ranks of the organization. Many BPP rank-and-file members considered Pratt a hero and he was well respected in the New York chapter CeltBrowne (talk) 20:09, 12 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, found that now. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 15:12, 13 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

CeltBrowne, the verifiability issue is resolved, because you either provided extra sources or pointed to where Umoja covers the material; I've added cites to Umoja in thoses cases. Thanks for getting that done. However, some of what is cited to Umoja is too closely paraphrased. Can you rework these?

  • Article has "In February 1969, Balagoon and fellow New York BPP member Richard Harris were arrested in Newark, New Jersey on bank robbery charges."
  • Source has "Balagoon and New York BPP member Richard Harris were arrested in February, 1969 on bank robbery charges in Newark, New Jersey."
  • Article has "Following their arrest, most of the defendants were released on $100,000 bail, however, Balagoon was held without bail"
  • Source has "After their arrest, most of the defendants were released on $100,000 bail. Balagoon was held without bail"
  • Article has "On 2 April 1969 21 Panther leaders and organizers (including Balagoon and Harris) were indicted, and another 12 were arrested, on conspiracy charges in a 30-count indictment in what became known as the Panther 21 trial."
  • Source has "On April 2, 1969 ... 21 Panther leaders and organizers (including Balagoon and Harris) were indicted, and 12 arrested on conspiracy charges in a 30-count indictment. This case became known as the case of the New York Panther 21."

Usually it's not possible to simply recast the sentence in place with different words; it's better to find another way to present the information that incorporates this into new sentences. I'll check back here in a week or two to see if you've had a chance to look at these. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 15:21, 13 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I've done the rephrasing myself; to avoid repeating the source I cut some details that seemed less important to an article about Balagoon rather than about the Panther 21. If you decide to re-add any of it, please be careful not to reintroduce close paraphrasing. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 00:17, 24 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks Mike, I'm still caught for time at the moment and wasn't able to get into it. CeltBrowne (talk) 11:31, 24 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
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