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Did you know nomination

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The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by AirshipJungleman29 talk 23:17, 14 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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  • ... that Liviu Holender, charming as Papageno in a 2018 Salzburg Festival production of Mozart's Die Zauberflöte for children, portrayed the resolute Hans in Zemlinsky's Der Traumgörge in 2024? Source: several
    • Reviewed: to come
    • Comment: yes, I'm aware that two qpq are missing, and that the article should have more refs but there's real life

Created by Gerda Arendt (talk). Self-nominated at 08:44, 12 March 2024 (UTC). Post-promotion hook changes for this nom will be logged at Template talk:Did you know nominations/Liviu Holender; consider watching this nomination, if it is successful, until the hook appears on the Main Page.[reply]

References

I don't understand what this means. The quote is entirely incomprehensible in both the hook and the article. A clear fail on WP:DYKCOMPLETE and WP:DYKHOOKSTYLE for not explaining what Dreamer Görge is which is not at all clear to me, or probably any other English speaking reader. It also needs to be explained in the context of the opera's plot in the article. I also don't think the quote is likely to engage readers even if it were in context. "Abysmally deep incomprehension" is a bit of a turn off, as is an obscure German-language opera. I can't see this passing even if it the confusing language were fixed and the quote put into better context. This is not usable content for a hook. Find a differnt hook fact.4meter4 (talk) 08:22, 8 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
"Dreamer Jörge" is the translation of the title. I thought that would be clear. I am no friend of the reviewer's language but worded the hook as proposed by Narutolovehinata5. - Hans and Grete are no minor roles, btw. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:56, 8 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
ALT1a: ... that in a revival of Zemlinsky's 1907 opera Der Traumgörge, the Austrian baritone Liviu Holender portrayed the resolute Hans, according to a reviewer with "abysmally deep incomprehension" of Görge the Dreamer?
ALT2: ... that while playing the Count during COVID-19 performances of The Marriage of Figaro, Liviu Holender regularly held hands with Adriana González, who played the Countess?--Launchballer 08:23, 8 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for offering, but "regularly" is not from the article. In the opera, that count goes after his wife's servant, which gives the "holding hands" an irony only understood when you know the plot, - therefore not my favourite. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:54, 8 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think we would need to emphasize they were the only cast members not social distancing to make the Figaro hook hooky. I'm assuming that's why it got pointed out in the review. It could work with a bit of modification to the hook and the prose of the article to emphasize that a bit more. I already rejected a Traumgörge hook. The quote itself is unsuitable. It reads like the performer was clueless about his character and how it related to the title character. It sounds like it was a severe rebuke of his "abysmal and clueless acting", and is too negative for a WP:BLP. If that isn't the case, then the quote "abysmally deep incomprehension" needs lengthy context about the character of Hans in relation to the plot in order to explain that is an appropriate character choice. Context won't fit into a hook. Let that one go. It's not happening.4meter4 (talk) 15:21, 8 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I still believe that our readers would profit more from a link to Der Traumgörge than another Figaro. We just had Figaro, twice. With the last two hook, for Tilmann Köhler, more readers clicked on Le nozze di Figaro than the singer and the director: it's a myth that our readers are not interested in operas.
Please listen a bit into the Zemlinsky music and to their enthusiastic supporters, the conductor, Holender and the soprano (who both sing and speak about the music). Even if you don't understand German you can see their intense relation to their "baby". The production was meant to happen in 2020, but had to wait because of the pandemic. Also: for Holender, Almaviva in Figaro is past in the career (while his wife is still in the latest production). There are very few baritones on earth who portrayed Hans, so - imho - it's more interesting, more unknown. This opera was a "victim" of antisemitic acts against Gustav Mahler - about time to fight that.
ALT1b: ... that in a revival of Zemlinsky's 1907 opera Der Traumgörge, Liviu Holender portrayed Hans, the title characters rival? (source [1], translated: "The other roles are also excellently cast: Michael Porter with his radiant tenor and Ian MacNeil with his powerful baritone impressively play the rabble-rousing revolutionaries Züngl and Kaspar, who are all too ready for a pogrom; Magdalena Hinterdobler sings Görge's down-to-earth fiancée Grete with her luminous soprano and Liviu Holender sings her childhood sweetheart Hans with his swashbuckling baritone.) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 19:08, 8 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
ALT1b doesn't at all address the concerns that 4meter4 raised regarding Der Traumgörge. If anything it's even worse than ALT1 because it's even more of a resume hook where it simply says that Holender played a role, and saying that he was the rival doesn't add much that would raise interest. As 4meter4 said it might be a good idea to just move away from Der Traumgörge-related hooks entirely because this is clearly not working out. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 23:48, 8 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • @4meter4: In the interest of this moving forward, I'm giving the following suggestions. How do they sound?
ALT3 ... that Liviu Holender, a baritone who has performed several leading roles at the Oper Frankfurt, is the son of a former director of the Vienna State Opera?
ALT4 ... that Liviu Holender, a baritone who has performed several leading roles at the Oper Frankfurt, studied law before starting his opera career?
ALT5 ... that during a performance of The Marriage of Figaro held during the COVID-19 pandemic at the Oper Frankfurt, Liviu Holender and Adriana González were the only ones who held hands?
ALT5b ... that Liviu Holender and Adriana González were the only performers who held hands during a COVID-19 performance of The Marriage of Figaro at the Oper Frankfurt?
Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 23:48, 8 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Approving hooks alt3,alt4, and alt5b only. All other hooks, including any on Der Traumgörge, are specifically rejected. The promoter may choose one of the three identified alt hooks to feature at their discretion.4meter4 (talk) 00:30, 9 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
My personal preference would be ALT5b as it's a bit of a compromise: it still talks about his opera performance, but does so in a way that it would be understandable without specialist knowledge about opera. I'm fine with the other two being picked however. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 01:01, 9 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
In ALT5, I changed the title of the opera to Mozart's original title because that was performed - in Italian - in Frankfurt, and that is what the sources say. The company occasionally uses German versions, but most often the original. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:21, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
ps: will this nom eventually be move to the approved? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:22, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Gerda Arendt The title wasn't in German before, it was in English. This is the English language wikipedia and by practice we use English language titles for works commonly known by their English language equivalents. I changed it back. Any hook using a foreign language opera title is less hooky to English speaking readers.4meter4 (talk) 15:46, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
If you insist on the title in English, please drop "Oper Frankfurt" from the hook. The company would not perform the work in English, and not even in German. We had two hooks recently about Le nozze di Figaro (given in Italian) in Frankfurt, and in both cases the Italian title opera received more (additional) views than the person (Kelsey Lauritano, Tilmann Köhler). I believe that the foreign title is actually more interesting, but do it your way, just please don't associated it in English with Frankfurt. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 16:04, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Gerda when the Metropolitan Opera advertises their Italian language performances of The Marriage of Figaro they still frequently use the English language title. Ditto on the Royal Opera House in London. That's wide practice with this opera in the English speaking world. Since this has become an issue I'm rejecting alt5b as I think it looses appeal when presented in any other way to English speaking readers.4meter4 (talk) 17:15, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I hear you, and I said already do it your way, but drop Oper Frankfurt from ALT5 then. In Frankfurt, on the website and on posters, the title is used as performed, Le nozze di Figaro, Tri Sestry, Maskaraden - no connection of that company and English for a Mozart opera, please. The hook doesn't need Oper Frankfurt to be mentioned. - I wonder, btw, what would happen if an RfC requested the original title for the article name. We know what happened for Der fliegende Holländer (the second round). I have no intention to begin one, but would like a little more respect for the language composers had in mind for their music. I probably told you already that our article Wagner stopped using The Flying Dutchman (besides as translation) in 2013, when it became FA. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 19:36, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, there has been disagreement over how to deal with foreign language titles for plays, movies, books, etc. as well. It's the perennial debate over whether to use the original language title or the more commonly known title among English speakers. Generally we should go with English per policy at Wikipedia:Naming conventions (use English). Regardless, for hook purposes I would say avoid using foreign language titles whenever possible. Foreign language words are a turn off to most people within a general English-speaking audience. It shouldn't be that way, but it is that way.4meter4 (talk) 20:12, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Was I unclear? Remove Oper Frankfurt then. Please. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:43, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
ps: Do you have something to back up your claim that foreign language turns off most people? I look at the stats and see the peaks for the two days when we had a hook mentioning the opera in Italian. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:47, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Your suggested changes make for a bad hook. Alt 5 loses interest by removing Oper Frankfurt because it provides needed context. I'm not going to pass alt5 in any form different than what was originally approved. Alt5 in any form is now rejected based your objections. Time to let it go. I think its best we stick to Alt 3 and Alt 4 as our only two options. P.S. Arguing back and forth isn't helpful and isn't going to persuade me to change my mind. As for policy, reading a foreign language is a specialized skill and arguably any hook with foreign language words fails the WP:DYKHOOKSTYLE criteria for requiring special knowledge or interest.4meter4 (talk) 20:57, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I am withdrawing the nomination then. This is a BLP, and no DYK is better than ALT3 and ALT4. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:01, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That's your choice. We have two usable hooks. People would see much of the content you are wanting them to read by them clicking on the article. To be clear Gerda, we can use foreign language titles in DYK but only when it is a work not well known in English by another name. DYKHOOKSTYLE indicates we should write in a style that appeals to a broad English speaking audience which means avoiding foreign language words as much as possible.4meter4 (talk) 21:16, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for trying, and sorry for being stubborn but I have let hooks pass for which I still feel ashamed months later. If it was only for the 12 or 24 hours on the Main page I'd give in, but the hook sentence is what sticks on top of the article talk forever, which is also where I look when a person dies. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:11, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Nominator has withdrawn this nomination.4meter4 (talk) 21:09, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@4meter4: Are you okay with ALT6/ALT6a? I have to agree that as much as possible, we have to use the English names for operas if they exist. There's no issue with using the non-English titles for operas that have no well-known or common English title, but when one exists, guidelines suggest sticking with the English titles for recognition's sake (see the Figaro discussion above). Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 11:23, 20 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'm also very confused with the discussion above. There's an objection to the Oper Frankfurt mention just because Figaro's title isn't in English? That is a very strange objection. I've boldly unstruck ALT5/ALT5b as the objection to the Oper Frankfurt mention makes no sense. I would not however oppose ALT6/ALT6a being chosen instead; I will leave the final decision to 4meter4. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 11:28, 20 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Narutolovehinata5 I think it best a new reviewer take over. My impatience with the back and forth with Gerda I think colored my response. It would be good to get a fresh set of eyes. I do think we should use the English language title for The Marriage of Figaro per WP:ENGLISH would be my only comment. Best.4meter4 (talk) 13:56, 20 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That would be fair. This needs a new reviewer. However, in order to maintain impartiality and ensure that the new reviewer is completely uninvolved, I would suggest that Storye book recuse from reviewing this nomination. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 14:00, 20 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Goes without saying, but me too. ——Serial Number 54129 14:03, 20 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
For what it's worth, I'm fine with ALT6 (I think ALT6a is too long and the names aren't central to the hook fact and thus can be omitted); however I can't approve it or any of the hooks as I already suggested some hooks, so another editor really needs to look at this. @Serial Number 54129: Just for clarification, what do you mean by "me too"? Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 14:17, 20 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Narutolovehinata5: So as, to coin a phrase, in order to maintain impartiality and ensure that the new reviewer is completely uninvolved, I would suggest that [ I ] recuse from reviewing this nomination  :) ——Serial Number 54129 14:44, 20 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I would be willing to come in as a new reviewer on this. @Gerda Arendt: not to drive you wild with all this, but would you be open to a slight rephrasing of ALT6? If you were to move "for a recital at Oper Frankfurt" to the end of the sentence, it would read much more easily and I would be happy to approve it. Not giving the names of the composers makes it nicely hooky; you want to click through to find out who they are. Mary Mark Ockerbloom (talk) 12:09, 30 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
ALT6b: ... that baritone Liviu Holender chose lieder by five composers whose music was banned by the Nazis, Schreker, Zemlinsky, Mahler, Korngold and Schönberg, for a recital at Oper Frankfurt?


Remarkable Longevity

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In Life and Career the article says: "Holender became a member of the ensemble of Gärtnerplatztheater in Munich in 1917,.... In 2018 he portrayed Papageno in a Salzburg Festival production of Mozart's Die Zauberflöte for children." I don't know what age he was when he joined, but 101 years with the same opera company is quite remarkable. He must be the oldest Papageno ever recorded. Weka511 (talk) 00:20, 22 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 05:04, 22 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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