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Archive 1

Requested moves to Merano and Merano-Meran

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the debate was no move. There is clearly large opposition to both of the proposed moves. — Mets501  (talk)  19:50, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

Requested move to Merano

Meran-Merano → Merano – See also the survey at Talk:Communes of South Tyrol. There is a majority for the Italian name "Merano", but "Meran" also has its merits. Both are currently redirects with edit history. Markussep 09:53, 29 September 2006 (UTC) Markussep 09:53, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

Survey

Add "* Support" or "* Oppose" followed by an optional one-sentence explanation, then sign your opinion with ~~~~

Double names cause unnecessary confusion, see the discussion at Talk:Communes of South Tyrol (I guess you missed that one?). There's a majority against double names (including your late vote 62% against double names). No serious encyclopedia has these bilingual article titles, the place for (relevant) alternative names is in the first line of the article. Markussep 14:28, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
It's a very small majority (German:Italian:Ladin=51.5:48.0:0.5), but you're right about that. However, "Meran" would be my second choice, because "Merano" is (2-3 times) more used in English.Markussep 19:09, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

Discussion

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Copied from Talk:Communes of South Tyrol:

  • Google: 858,000 English hits for Merano without Meran; 326,000 for Meran without Merano. Meran appears also to be ambiguous with Hotel Meran in Prague, the Meran variation of the Semi-Slav Defense in chess, and a Kurdish proper name. Two of these are presumably named after Meran, but one of them testifies to Czech usage, not English. I see no correspionding confusion for Merano.
  • Linguistic affiliation: 51% German by the census.
  • Survey: no specific comments on the subject, so far.
Well if you want to go by linguistic affiliation, this one would have to be at "Meran" if it's 51% German speaking. Otherwise this whole new policy is going to be full of holes and discrepancies. Gryffindor 19:59, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
Why should it be Merano if the majority is German-speaking? Gryffindor 20:48, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
Because it seems to be the English language name for the city. In the same way, we say Prague and Vienna, not Praha or Wien. --Asteriontalk 20:52, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
The "English" language name? You mean the Italian probably. Gryffindor 19:59, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
I believe that Asterion means, and I know I do, the English name, the name commonly used in English prose; just as the English name of Rome is Rome and the English name of Paris is Paris. Septentrionalis 21:38, 25 September 2006 (UTC)


Requested move to Merano-Meran

Meran-Merano → Merano-Meran – In the Province of Bolzano/Bozen, being that it is Italian-German, every town is listed with both names. This is similar to French Canada. Any road sign will show Bolzano-Bozen. It is Italy, so it is Italian name-German name. It is just an order of names, it doesn't mean either is less! But we should be correct, above all. All the towns in Bolzano/Bozen are listed this way, and should be listed this way. thanks Taalo 04:07, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Survey

Add "* Support" or "* Oppose" followed by an optional one-sentence explanation, then sign your opinion with ~~~~

Thanks (also for mispelling my nickname). Maybe you can read the last paragraph of this discussion ("The way!") and learn to be neutral.--Supparluca 12:47, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
I referred to the commune statute (here: [1]) from the official commune site.[2] In no place is "Meran-Merano" or "Merano-Meran" used. -  AjaxSmack  16:49, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

Discussion

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Look at the Merano-Meran city website. See how nicely they can put the German and Italian on each side, actually alternating the content. Seems the water there makes people a bit more relaxed than on WP. LOL. Taalo 09:23, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

http://www.comune.merano.bz.it/

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the debate was move to Merano. There was really no consensus on Meran vs Merano, but basically no one wants the double name, so I had to choose. I read all of the discussion below, and there is no hint of agreemen anywhere. What really swayed me towards Merano was two things: one vote for Meran and against Merano was by an anon whose only edit was to this page, making me believe it may be a single purpose "account", and the fact that this city is in fact in Italy, so no one can really object to it being called by the Italian name. —Mets501 (talk) 01:38, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

Strawpoll for new name

Since the previous two requested move surveys failed, I propose a strawpoll for the new name. The current name of the article, "Meran-Merano", is a combination of the German name ("Meran") and the Italian name ("Merano"). This type of bilingual naming was found to be undesirable in a recent survey at Talk:Communes of South Tyrol. The four most plausible options are listed below, please cast your votes. Markussep 20:06, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

Survey

Add "* Support" or "* Oppose" followed by an optional one-sentence explanation, then sign your opinion with ~~~~

Meran (4-2)

Merano (4-2)

Meran-Merano (current name) (1-5)

Merano-Meran (0-6)

Discussion

Add any additional comments

Why are doing this page by page actually? Lets just discuss the naming convention globally, no? Taalo 18:01, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

There is a perfectly fine rule for places in South Tyrol. Use the most commonly used name in English, and if there isn't any, take the local majority name. There's only 1 census every 10 years, so we wouldn't have to change so often. Markussep 18:06, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
But Markussep, this is really going against what is used all over Wikipedia. People brought this up to me when I was hoping for double names. They mentioned Belgium, etc., etc. So we shouldn't go and start coming up with things like this. If we go with single names, it should simply be the Italian name with appropriate redirects and translations in the page (using again Bolzano as an example). Anyway, we can argue about this until we turn blue, right? :-) That is why I'd like to get a neutral opinion, and why I really favour that offer of mediation. I'd like to see what someone says after looking at the data objectively. I noticed you speak German very well, you don't think that might influence you a bit? I realize I'm probably biased as well, considering my background. That is why I'm trying to really consider what is a proper solution, and even like better the idea of some neutral mediator. take care. Taalo 18:28, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
Belgium, Switzerland, Finland etc. etc. are fine examples of how using the local majority language does work. But well, let's give Lar a try. Markussep 19:47, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
I'll look into those pages some later this evening. Anyway, yes, I'm rather relieved to have someone neutral just figure out a solution and be done with it. Uncool move on the mediation discussion, doesn't help move things forward. But whatever.. :P~~ Taalo 21:48, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

Both names (Meran and Merano) are commonly used in English. Both are official names, as South Tyrol (of which Meran(o) is the second city) is officially bilingual. Google shows a slight preference (about 2-3x) for Merano in English usage. According to the 2001 census, the majority of the population of the municipality of Meran considers itself German-speaking (51.5%, Italian-speaking 48.0%, Ladin-speaking 0.5%). Markussep 20:06, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

Supparluca, I don't think the naming conventions lead us directly to choosing the Italian name. From WP:NC: "Generally, article naming should give priority to what the majority of English speakers would most easily recognize, with a reasonable minimum of ambiguity, while at the same time making linking to those articles easy and second nature." I don't see anything else that's applicable here. Meran and Merano are both frequently used in English, and both easily recognisable. Did I overlook something? Markussep 17:01, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

From a logical point of view, the fact that Merano is in Italy means that the majority of English speakers would most easily recognise the Italian name. From a "just stick to the naming conventions to avoid any possible controversy or ambiguity/inconsistency" point of view (in my opinion, the best way), the naming conventions say that if there isn't a common English name, you should use the current local name. This solves the Southtyrolean issue, and nobody would think that the Italian/German/Ladin name was chosen because Italian/German/Ladin is better.--Supparluca 20:03, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
"The fact that Merano is in Italy means that the majority of English speakers would most easily recognise the Italian name". That the shittiest (sorry for this word) argument you can give. Such a criterium is completely not objective. Can you represent all English speaking (or perhaps better: English reading) people of the world? Tubantia 22:04, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
Sadly, it seems that the majority of wikipedians can't be neutral on this topic, and tend to accuse immediately who tries to use the logic.--Supparluca 22:15, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
I am not accusing at all. I even apologised already for the s-word above. But now you are exactly making the point I wanted to make. When I see your username, I think you are Italian (or at least of Italian ancestry), so how can you be neutral on this topic? I just don't think that anyone can tell what the majority of English speakers would most easily recognise, the German or the Italian name. That's an opinion, predominantly based on being on one of the either sides in the Southtyrolean issue. But you are already stating it like a fact, and I think you should be careful with those terms. When you can prove that the majority of English speakers use Merano in stead of Meran, you have my blessing to change the name of the article. Tubantia 22:29, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
Funny, immediately seeing your comment towards Supparluca, I said to myself, "hmm, I hope this is not a German, or we just further enforce this same boring pattern". Tada, I check out your user page: thanks for keeping things predictable at least! :P~~ Come on, that comment towards Supparluca was totally uncalled for. Actually Supparluca is correct technically. Wikipedia is supposed to use what is most commonly used in English. It doesn't matter at all what the locals do/think/feel. If you merely take the time to search Google (which is about the easiest way to show what the majority of English speakers use) for regions/provinces/cities of Italy, for lesser known towns they always use Italian, full stop. Anyway, this just makes me feel even more thankful that we have that fellow who is willing to mediate/decide all this for us -- if anything so these boring conversations can end. By the way, why don't you "prove that the majority of English speakers use Meran in stead of Merano". Either way is a challenge, putting the burden on one way or the other is utterly asinine. Not to mention that considering this is Italy, one can easily argue the burden of proof weights on you. ciao bello! Taalo 03:55, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
By the way, the "suppar" part of my nickname is a sort of German dialect pronunciation of "super". But you know, if you suggest to use the German names you are neutral, if you suggest to use the Italian names you are fascist (this is not an accusation on you)--Supparluca 04:43, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
Really, it was not my intention to insult anybody. Perhaps I should have written a larger comment initially, then my words would not have been explained like they have now. Or I should not have used the s-word, but I could not find a better alternative that quickly. My point is that too many Wikipedians are stating things like they are facts without having clear evidence; I really do not see the "logic" in this sentence. In the same way you could plead that it should be Meran, because Milano also becomes Milan in English, and Meran is probably easier to pronounce. But that is the my "logic", as a non-native English speaker, so I think that does not make a big difference. But hey, let's forget about it, I think I am not able to give my opinion correctly, probably due to my lack of the English language. I should write English more carefully, that is for sure. And about my German ancestry: yes, that is the 11th generation of my ancestors, living just across the Dutch-German border. So my "Germanity" is close to nil. But I am aware of the fact that I might not be neutral in this discussion and that is the reason why I will not vote. Take care you all, Tubantia 07:50, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
I apologize for my reaction, I was just tired to see how the people who try to give some logical reasoning in favour of the Italian names are immediately accused of suppressing the minorities, see for example talk:Bolzano and talk:Adige, but in fact you didn't.--Supparluca 14:37, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
When you search for Merano and Meran in Google by the way, there is 1) a lot of interference of other languages, even when searching for pages in English 2) obscurity about the number of articles of Italian or German origin, respectively. I can imagine that Germanspeaking people in South Tyrol tend to use Meran, and the Italianspeaking Merano. Let me make clear: I am not really pro-Meran or pro-Merano, I only think there should be proper base for renaming this article, as it will have consequences for all articles concerning South Tyrol. I might not be neutral, because I would tend to using the German name, because of the majority of people speaking the language and the fact that a lot of the Italian South Tyrolean names are pure fabrications. Tubantia 12:15, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

Why is this talkpage in reverse order of all others (regressing instead of progressing)? -  AjaxSmack  05:48, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

I've fixed it. —Mets501 (talk) 01:39, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

the magority of Meran is german speeking

I want to move Merano to Merano-Meran or Meran becose the magority of the popolation speecs German--Martin Se 09:17, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

The majority of the population of Rome is Italian but the city is named Rome and not Roma. That's because in wikipedia you use the English name, not the name used by the majority of the population.--Supparluca 09:20, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
This was debated long and hard (along with all South Tyrol town articles), please see above. All double names were rejected, and Meran(o) was the closest call, and it was more or less a coin toss (slim German-speaking majority vs. slim prevalence of Merano in English usage). Please refrain from unilateral moves. Duja 10:09, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
I know and I'am very angry for this, but if You will create e convention about naming in South Tyrol You will have to listen to as South Tyrolean. We know the conventions in the RL and also the lows and the history, many italian users including user:Supparluca d'ont know nothing. Meran has alltimes been Meran and from 1919 some people used also Merano.
There are no english Names for places in South Tyrol (only South Tyrol and Dolomites)--Martin Se
Thank you for your personal attack. I really appreciate that. And please don't turn around Duja's words as you did adding a ":" to his post.--Supparluca 17:42, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
This is false, Merano was not a name invented in 1919. It was a name allowed to be used officially after centuries of Austrian control of the region. You need to learn to share my friend. Taalo 01:42, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
The majority in question is 51%; I'm underwhelmed. Persuade me that English usage does not exist, and I will consider this. Septentrionalis 19:36, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
Witch one is English for You, Meran or Merano, I d'ont know, Meran is German and Merano ist Italian--Martin Se 11:23, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
Ah, but is it really "German"? Or is it the name that is used in German. The basis of his name/word is in Latin (i.e. Roman). Also, are you aware what word is used in Ladin, Nones, etc.? Taalo 00:02, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
Both are English names; Merano appears to be more common. Persuade me otherwise. Septentrionalis 20:15, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Heh heh, in Nones it is indeed 'Meran', take my word. :) I take the chance to reiterate that Meran has 80+ years of tradition of being called Meran in print and word in the chess community - see Semi Slav Defense if you don't believe me. Also, the German speaking community there may enjoy only a slight majority, but it's a majority anyway: if there's a principle (granted, I'm not sure what Lar is thinking right now), why not follow it? Regards, Tridentinus 00:15, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Ok, I thought so. LOL My Nones is not so bad afterall. :-) This is a critical point that a lot of the "Germans" maybe do not realize. They are using these names like Meran and Brenner, claiming they are German, that we must protect and have German, etc., etc. But the irony of it all is these words are not really German, they are used in German. Much as Milan is not English, it is used in English. I think that Italian dialects (and lets not get into the debate of what a dialect is) such as Nones, Ladin, etc. are almost like an older form of Romance language, something a bit closer to Latin. Italian has "evolved" to have many vowels at the end of words now; Nones/Ladin/etc. do not. The most hilarious thing is that because modern Italian has put vowels at the end of names, it is being used as an excuse that "Italy" has somehow tossed away its historical ties to these places? Now what happens is that as time went by Meran had the "o" added to Italianize it. But it was not a cultural Italianization, it was a LINGUAL one. The origins of the names of Brennero and Merano are from Latin and from the Romans. The names Brenner and Meran are in fact Italian names as well, not in the strict sense of the modern Italian language, but definitely culturally. Anyway, I'm not making this discussion to make claims for the flag of Italy, or who ever, I just find it all very interesting. Tridentinus, don't kill be for going off topic now. But in the Val di Non (itself with no vowel!) we have Casez, Cles, Dambel, etc. without vowels. Then there are towns like Coredo, Fondo, Romeno, Sarnonico. In Nones is Fondo just Fond? I seem to remember Sarnonico is Sarnonic? Taalo 18:30, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
One more item, with respect to what to call it. Why I don't like using this majority rule, is you still don't know what people really call it. In Trentino-Alto Adige, if many people are speaking their Italian dialects, well then BY FAR everyone is saying Meran (for example) in their daily language. Same with the other cities throughout the region. But how can you really quantify this? With census data -- no. The thing is above all we are supposed to use English words, right? I will argue there are no translations for any of these towns in English, and that by far the references you find just show the Italian names, Bolzano, Trento, Fondo, Merano, etc. I know my friend Fantasy hates to hear this, but yes, "because they are in Italy". :-) But I think it is very fair to say that no one is trying to erase the older forms of the names like Meran, Bolzan, Bulsan (or the German Bozen). To me all these names are important.. because they ARE Italian.. and they are German used as well.
Your ideas about the etymology of place names are interesting, but I would like to see some proof. I agree that some names apparently have a Latin/Romance root (Meran, Bolzano, Sexten), but, so have many common words in German (Keller, Zimmer), and many place names in South Tyrol are obviously German, like Niederdorf, Mühlwald, Brenner. You're not going to claim that they're Austrian translations of original Italian or Latin names, are you? Also, something interesting from italian wikipedia: "Gli italiani di Bolzano non possiedono un proprio dialetto regionale anche se nella lingua italiana parlata a Bolzano esiste un substrato veneto-trentino. Molti parlano l'idioma della regione d'origine (soprattutto il veneto e il trentino)." I guess it means that there is not really a local Italian dialect in Bolzano, but since many of the Italians who moved there after WW1 were from Veneto and Trentino, this influences the Italian spoken in Bolzano. I think what you're writing about leaving out the final vowel in local dialect etc. really applies to (some areas of) Trentino, not South Tyrol (except the Ladin valleys). Markussep 19:19, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
I'm not really trying to derive the specific origin of the words, I'm just saying that a lot of these names we are talking about are in fact "Italian". I just thought that point was a bit ironic. Funny the ones you mentioned as obvious. The first two, yes, definitely agree with you. But Brenner is just as Meran, a Latin-based name. The local Italian dialects will also call it Brenner. It was named by the Romans afterall; after the local tribe they called the Brennii (shows this also right here on Wikipedia). Also, remember again that the local people and dialects spoken here originally were the languages like Ladin, Nones, etc. The "Germans" came in afterwards and Germanized this region, in particular the Province of Bolzano/Bozen particularly. Then some "Italians" came in again. Above all, there is a large percentage of the people that have just been along for the ride. Someone may claim they are "German", where in fact they were likely Germanized a couple centuries ago. Is this bad or good, wrong or right? No, it is just the history of the region, and maybe should get it into a few more people to share. Just my thoughts. :-) Taalo 21:25, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
Taalo, your reasoning goes totally against etymology. The Latin words had the endings, they were kept in Italian, but dropped in Ladin. For example: Latin: mundus, Italian: mondo, Ladin: monn. Latin: filius, Italian: figlio, Ladin: fi. Latin: osteum, Italian: osso, Ladin: os.   Andreas   (T) 19:54, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
Hey, I am no expert on languages. I was making a discussion only as a novice, hence having to ask my neighbor what the words were in Nones. My main point, if you look back, was just that because the vowels are not there, does not mean it is not Italian. Your own examples help show this! Anyway, the view I was putting forth was only that the names of the cities, such as Meran, are "Italian" in fact. regards. Taalo 21:15, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
By the way, since apparently you may know this: Do you know for certain the progression wasn't osteum => os => osso? It wasn't this progression I was originally interested in though, which I'm assuming isn't so linear. I was merely trying to explain that in the local dialects they don't include the vowels. It doesn't need to be a more complex discussion than that -- it is just to make the other people aware that Meran (without the o) is in fact an "Italian" word as well. Taalo 21:28, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
As far as I know, Meran didn't even exist in the Roman era. What's your proof that the name comes from Italian? BTW Ladin is not an Italian dialect! Markussep 22:02, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
Yes, I know calling Ladin a dialect is very debatable -- and it is not a debate I want to get into right now. If anything, because like I said before, I am no professor of language studies. The thing that you must be aware of though is that there are many "dialects" such as Ladin spoken throughout this region. I mention Nones that is spoken in the Val di Non, there is a dialect in Val di Sole, etc. While Ladin/Nones/etc. are not dialects of the language Italian in the strict sense of the word; they are however very much Italian (possessive) dialects/languages/what-have-you -- as in local languages of the Italian people. I'm sure someone will now say that "Ladins" don't consider themselves "Italian". This, in my opinion is hogwash. It is the same if a "Nones" said they are not Italian, or if Napolitano said he/she is not Italian. Trust me, you will find people in all these areas that will say just so! As far as how we got to the actual word Meran(o), shoot, your guess is as good as mine. My point once again, a simple one at that, is just that the word Meran itself is "Italian". My family is from the Val di Non for centuries, a lot of people use Nones in daily life. If they say Meran -- they are not speaking German. So I'm just pointing out that since it is used in German, doesn't necessarily mean it is German. *yawn*  :-) ps. I didn't say (or mean to say) that the word Meran comes from Italian (the language). You have to understand more the dynamics of languages in Italy though.. the thousands of local "dialects" (oops, not dialects, oh, yes dialects, argg, whatever) :-) regards. Taalo 22:15, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
As an aside, on the it.wiki Merano page they have: "Il toponimo è attestato come Mairania nel 857 e deriva dal nome di persona latino Marius, col significato di "terreno di Mario". I don't know, I'd almost guess that it went from Mairan(ia) to Meran(o) by some spelling errors along the years. LOL. Taalo 22:33, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
If by "Italian" you mean any language spoken in Italy, that includes French and German (and Albanian, Arab, Polish etc.) as well. I'll believe that most South Tyroleans (also the German speakers) consider themselves Italian nowadays, but that doesn't make Meran an "Italian language" name per se. The Nones and Ladin names for Meran are not very relevant, and I don't think there's a real local Italian (or Ladin/Romansh) dialect in Meran, same as for Bolzano mentioned above. Markussep 22:50, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
You are knitpicking my friend. You mention languages spoken in Italy, and I see where you are trying to go with this counter-argument. However, there is a difference from French, Arabic, et al. being spoken in Italy and the local/regional languages. Then again, to be fair, many of these local "dialects" have been influenced from non-Latin languages (i.e. Greek, Albanian, etc.). Anyway, Nones/Ladin/etc. are just one amongst many local Italian languages with a core root in Latin (i.e. Rome). With regards to the city proper of Merano and Bolzano, I really don't know how much people speak the "dialects" there. I think people more often speak "dialect" in the villages and surrounding valleys. Anyway, I really didn't want to get so technical into things. I just wanted to point out that the name Meran is also in fact a word used in Italian (possessive) languages. These "dialects" (Alp Latin??) were in the region well before German came in. This also goes back to a comment I saw Martin Se make that "Italians" were never in the area until after WWI. This is massive rubbish. The concept itself of "Italy" is very recent, the people however just didn't appear out of thin air. Taalo 23:19, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
The people in Meran originaly appeared from the nord (germany) being the region almost deserted after the migration period.
And Taalo is leading a personal war against me (massive nonesence) and my ladin and romansh ancestors (both grandfathers) are rotating in the tomb being called Italians--Martin Se 16:58, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
What?? I'm leading a personal war against you? Dude, you came on here ranting and raving this past week and made your volcano on your user page.. and now you say I'm leading a personal war against you? I'm telling you that you should merely relax. Yeah, some people arrived in Merano from Germany a few hundred years ago, just like some people arrived from Rome 2000 years ago. It is all fine. You can say your grandfathers are rotating in their grave, crude as it may be. I know for sure that my Nones grandfathers would simply be sad that a few can be so naive as to say what you have said "rotating in the tomb being called Italians". How bloody tiresome are these type of statements?? I will be the first to say the people are first Ladin (or Nones, etc), then from this region, but finally they are "Italians". Sorry, but I find it extremely boring hearing people from Sardegna or Napoli or Sicily or Venice saying things like this. It is in fact a racism of people who don't want to be associated with their own brothers, sisters, and cousins. That is exactly why my grandfathers would be sad. ciao bello. Taalo 18:17, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
I got more for you. Yeah, my family has been from the Val di Non for as far as we can go back -- going well back before "Germans" came down from the North. I have some Austrian blood because of these new neighbors and I'm as proud of that as the blood that comes from the South -- from Rome. Why shouldn't I? We are all humans after all -- I think!?! One of my Nones grandfathers would literally blow his top when he heard people talking bad about the "Italians" of the deep south. He felt this sort of behavior was disgusting, racist, and spitting in the face of your greater family. My other grandfather was a POW overseas during a good part of WWII and he carved out the the Italian peninsula by hand from a piece of tin an American officer gave him because he missed his home so much. That is what my grandparents were up to. Not rotating around offended because someone dares call them Italians... Taalo 18:40, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
You (Taalo) don't have to invent names like "Alp Latin", because there is already a name for languages like Ladin and Nones: Rhaeto-Romance languages. "Real" Italian is in another subfamily of Romance languanges. Ladin is spoken in a few valleys in (southeastern) South Tyrol, Trentino and the province of Belluno, and practically not spoken outside those valleys. As Martin says, Meran (and adjacent Vinschgau, Passeiertal) was predominantly German before WW1. You're right, Italians (and I mean people who speak one of the Italian dialects) didn't appear out of thin air, they came from Bolzano (had a small Italian minority before WW1), Trentino, Veneto, and lots of other areas. I'm disappointed that you make some controversial statements and then say "I really didn't want to get so technical into things" when asked for evidence. That's not a basis for a useful discussion. Markussep 17:27, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
Dude, you really have a talent for being abrasive. First, I did not invent the name "Alp Latin". I asked a question, hence the question marks. See them, there are two of them right there above. I have heard these languages referred to as Alp Latin or Latin of the Alps. Yes, it isn't the scientific name, it is probably a laymans term. Nonetheless, I didn't invent it. Real Italian is the national language of the Republic of Italy. It is one of thousands of languages spoke in Italy. Yes, Ladin is spoken in a small area. Nones is spoken in a small area. The language/dialects of Cremona are spoke in those small areas. You can go literally valley to valley and town to town across the entire Italian peninsula and find 100s upon 1000s of dialects. Man, your last statement is just offensive. I'm not writing a scientific journal here, I'm just discussing my take on things. I say Meran is an Italian name, and you come out and yell "prove it!". If you have any scientific reasoning yourself, why don't you ask yourself "why don't I prove first that it is German". *rolls eyes* I'm disappointed that you can't just carry on a relaxed conversation without coming out with this paragraph above. You all have an extreme misconception of "Italians". Italy and Italians is an extremely broad and loose term. People from Trento are no more -- or no less -- Italian than people from Naples or Perugia. If you all want to try and divide and conquer "Italy" in order to make a claim on various bits of land.. well that is pretty petty in my opinion. Germans came in from the north in the 17th century. Germans were a majority before WW1. But did you ever think consider there were years previous as well?? From two-thousand years ago this was an "Italian/Latin/whatever" area, no matter how you like to twist it around. The irony is you like to argue that "Italians" came in and revised things, but you then put your head in the ground when the discussion goes back to the same thing that was done to the people living here originally. Shameful. Taalo 18:07, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
I think we have different views on relaxed conversations. Whatever, I'm going to end (my contribution to) this one, it's leading nowhere anyway. BTW Germans came long before the 17th century, 6th-9th century's more like it. Markussep 19:38, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
Yeah, from the sentence you wrote to me earlier today -- we do indeed have a different view. "BTW Germans came long before the 17th century, 6th-9th century's more like it." Oh, really? prove it! You're method is nice and relaxed, isn't it? Listen, Roman-Latin/Germanic/whatever people have been showing up for centuries. But as people came in during these centuries, it was building on people there previously, and on and on. I suppose you'd really love to imagine that South Tyrol is this ethnically pure "German" land, to that I also say -- whatever. We all came from Africa in the end... ;] ciao ciao. Taalo 20:33, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
Read this: it:Storia dell'Alto Adige. And I never claimed anything about ethnic purity, those are your words. Markussep 20:45, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
Ah, welcome back. So then what is your problem? People have been coming over and camping out for thousands of years. I just don't like statements like "Italians" are here only for 90 years. If you disagree with that, then we are on same page. My comment on the 17th century was off the cuff after reading the statements of this morning. Taalo 21:14, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
"From the 6th to the 9th century, the region was settled by the Bavarii together with the Langobards and the romanised natives." (quoted from the article on South Tyrol#History. I just mention this, although it is off-topic for this page. See my contribution there.   Andreas   (T) 20:49, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
Note first that I believe these paragraphs were pulled from the German wiki, so they do have a rather strong German-centric POV. It concentrates on the Germanization of the area and almost cuts out the Roman/Latin people. So already that entire bit should be revised. Humans have been coming into the area all the time. Like I said above, the main thing that was annoying to hear was this about "Italians in the last 90 years". regards. Taalo 21:17, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Taalo LOL 85.124.32.4 18:19, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Is anybody able to explain the above discussion to me? It started with a request to move the page from Merano to Meran. What followed, however, was a debate which might have been interesting in its own rights, but is completely unrelated to the initial request:

  • It is entirely irrelevant "which language was there first", for two reasons:
    • This language was undoubtedly neither German nor Italian. Probably is was not even Germanic or Romance, but Celtic or even non-Indo-European. And the first Romance language spoken there was certainly not Italian.
    • The question to be decided here is not a historical one, but which name is the most appropriate to use in the English-speaking wikipedia in 2007.
  • It is entirely irrelevant "which language dominated during which period in the past", for three reasons:
    • This changed back and forth through the centuries.
    • During the periods where Romance languages dominated, those were not Italian but either Latin or Rhaeto-Romance. None of these are even close to being the language spoken by the majority of the city's inhabitants today. (Latin: 0.00%, proto-Rhaeto-Romance: 0.00%, modern Ladin: 0.49%.)
    • The question to be decided here is not a historical one, but which name is the most appropriate to use in the English-speaking wikipedia in 2007.
  • If there is an established English name, this should be used. If there isn't, the most usual local name should be used. The burden of proof is on both sides (or, if you prefer, neither side). If there is no established English name, use of English sources may be misleading. The reason is that Italian-speaking inhabitants of the city constituted the majority between the late 1920s/early 1930s and 1981. This would have made it natural to use Merano in English for this sole reason (which is now obsolete, as majorities have changed).
  • The German name of the city may indeed have its roots in a Romance language. This
    • is irrelevant for the question (cf. genetic fallacy);
    • should, if anything, make it easier, rather than harder, to accept the name Meran even for speakers of Italian.
  • A German-speaking majority of 51.50% might indeed be "underwhelming". However, is, by inference, an Italian-speaking minority of 48.01% (with a decreasing tendency) an overwhelming justification to use the Italian name of the city?
  • It is indeed interesting that other Romance languages than Italian (i.e., Ladin) or certain local dialects of Italian use the form Meran rather than Merano. This
    • increases, rather than decreases, the majority of inhabitants of the city using the name Meran;
    • should, if anything, make it easier, rather than harder, to accept the name Meran even for those who use the name Merano.

85.167.176.9 13:18, 17 January 2007 (UTC) (Hanno)

In fact, this page was moved to "Merano" because the name commonly used in English in 2007 is Merano, not because there is a large Italian population in the city.--Supparluca 16:11, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

This is not strictly correct, as far as I can see:

  • the reason given for the move to Merano was, I quote, "There was really no consensus [...], so I had to choose." That sounds quite arbitrary.
  • As I said above, "If there is no established English name, use of English sources may be misleading". I doubt that a city of Merano's size has its own English name. In its absence, speakers of English would use the name most commonly used by locals. This would explain the use of the form Merano in English writings from the 1930s to the 1980s or in writings relying on sources written from the 1930s to the 1980s (which was the period when speakers of Italian were the majority in Merano). After all, you can't expect all people mentioning Meran(o) in writing to consult the latest censuses (or even to be aware of the region's trilinguality). But you might expect it from an encyclopedia.

Please note that I did not argue for or against Merano, I merely pointed out several irrationalities and inconsistencies in the above debates. 129.241.87.222 14:09, 18 January 2007 (UTC) (Hanno)

Yes, you're right to call them "irrationalities and inconsistencies"; in my opinion these decisions should not be taken with a survey, because there are conventions that should be applied. In this case, the decision was right according to the conventions.--Supparluca 15:10, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

Names in lead paragraph

A similar situation exists in Macedonia (Greece). The idea here is to put only the official name(s) into the opening sentence and have a separate section for the name, see Florina#Name, and we can put Mairania there, this is indeed informative. Note that there are lots of romance names even in Germany, the most famous one is Colonia -> Köln (Cologne). Btw, there are no " local Italian languages ("dialects")", all Italian-speaking Meraners came to the area during the 20th century. This is the heartland of Tyrol: the name Tyrol itself stems from the Tyrol castle located in Tirol, Italy. In roman times, this was Gallia Cisalpina, and the inhabitants were Celts.   Andreas   (T) 00:18, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Sorry Andreas, but that is highly misleading when you say "Italian-speaking Meraners came to the area during the 20th century". You must learn to differentiate between the national Italian language and the Italian people. If you go with your ideas based on simply what people speak, then there are in the end almost no Italians in Italy! LOL. There are definitely many "local Italian (possessive) languages": Nones, Ladin, and Solandro to name just a very few. These people were here well before German arrived. Note that this discussion doesn't just involve the city proper Merano, but the nearby surrounding valleys/villages. Yes, this is the heartland of Tirol. What this means beyond that? my regards. Taalo 00:36, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
  • On a side note, does German have a large variety of languages? It seems to me Italy is something similar to China, where China has many Chinese languages: Mandarin, Cantonese, Hakka, Hokkien, etc., etc., etc. The people are all Chinese -- the language that has become official Chinese is Mandarin. In my humble opinion, I see Nones as to Italian as Hakka is to Mandarin (Chinese). Similar with Ladin. Taalo 00:49, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

You can see a brief overview of Ladin here. Joining the discussion on Ladin groups: Fassano, Gardenese and Badiotto are called in Italian specialist literature "Ladino dolomitico", Noneso and Solandro (the latter apparently left out by the page I gave) "Ladino anaunico". Ceterum censeo paginam "Meran" esse nominandam. Regards, Tridentinus 18:45, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

prove it! joking. :-) Always grateful for the info you provide Tridentinus. I guess this is discussion is getting philosophical now that I tried to bring up the point that the name Meran itself is "Italian". It is just my opinion that Ladin, Nones, etc. are in the end Italian (possessive) languages. Just as the other thousands of local languages in Italy. I'm not trying to make any sort of nationalistic claim. The terms Italy and Italian are both very broad umbrella if one really understands the people. Taalo 19:01, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
According to conventions it seems very clear: This page has to be moved to "Meran" and stay there, as long as there is a German (or German+Ladin) speaking majority. Full stop. --PhJ 14:50, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
It was decided in an earlier discussion (see the move request above) that the most common name for the city in English usage was Merano. The naming convention is that we should follow common English usage. I agree that there is a (slight) local majority of German speakers, but we decided some months ago (see Talk:Communes of South Tyrol) that we would only use the local majority language if there is no clear preference for one name in English. Markussep 16:02, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
These are all very funny arguments to some extent. You know, almost no one in Trentino-Alto Adige speaks "Italian" (Tuscan) as their first language. Everyone is speaking local Italian dialects/languages. All over Trentino they will say Meran, because it is the word in Nones, Solandro, etc. Merano is the "Italian" equivalent. I tend to agree that Merano is the more used name in English.. but this speaking majority (German + Ladin) is just funny. There is too much of a literal correlation being done between language and ethnicity. It is really not so black and white, by any stretch of the imagination. Taalo 18:35, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
  • PHJ, It is by usual convention that the first name in the translations is where the city is located. What is the problem with this? You don't need to put German first, no one is taking German away from anything. o_O I prefer to have Italian-Ladin-German. My logic is that Italian (because it is in Italy), Ladin (because these are the local languages that pre-date the others), German (last but not least!). Then I make the mention that Meran is actually the common name in the region, not that it is not Italian, but it is the original name in the local Italian language(s). You should go to List of languages of Italy, it might enlighten you a bit. later. Taalo 22:32, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

But is the common name for the city in English really Merano?? When I search pages from the UK on google, then there are ca. 40.000 hits for Meran and ca. 80.000 for Merano. Imho this result shows that there is not a common name in English. And so, following the Wikipedia Naming Conventions, the article should be removed to Meran. 85.124.8.189 16:53, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

Well, your results are already showing a 2-to-1 usage of Merano more. Anyway, how about using Merano-Meran, so we don't have to keep having Italians and Germans coming to en.wikipedia to fight over the name again and again? By the way, Meran is actually an Italian name of the city as well. :P Taalo 09:51, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

Yes, it shows a 2-to-1 usage of Merano, but this is not a result for a presumed common name in English, don't you think so? And I don't talk about Italian or German names, my father is Italian...I only think that the Naming Conventions say that Wikipedia should use English names, if there are such in common use, and if not, Wikipedia should use the local names of the town, which is Meran. Mai-Sachme 17:04, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

great, and good to meet you mai-sachme. i really hope you are a bit more relaxed than martin. actually, both names are fine to me. i tend to believe Merano is more commonly used in English references and maps. Meran is the more original and local Italian name though. So, why not Merano-Meran? It is what is commonly done in BZ anyway. Taalo 22:50, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

Order of Names

In order to avoid two parallel discussions, I moved this discussion uniting it with:

PhJ 08:11, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

Taalos sentence

Note that many of the region's Italian languages/dialects use Meran

This sentence is not relevant, because in the region (not political) are no Italian languages/dialects and standard Italian spoken in Merano uses Merano--Martin Se 15:05, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Come again? I'm merely trying to let the reader be aware that the local Italian languages actually use the word Meran. Taalo 17:26, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Straw Poll

Move the city to the name of the majority-speak (=German: Meran).

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was no consensus, hence no move. The results of the previous polls in October still seem to hold: Clear rejection of the old hyphenated double name; narrow call between the two single names (Merano somewhat more common in English; Meran the language of the narrow majority locally). The debate below has added nothing further to this state of affairs except some further data on how much the Italian name is leading in English usage. Since Merano is thus clearly compatible both with the general Wikipedia naming guidelines and with the guidelines reportedly developed in the relevant Wikiproject, and since there is no clear consensus for any other proposal anywhere in sight, the page stays where it is.

I'm bringing this to a late formal close to stop people from using this as a reason for further move-warring. Fut.Perf. ☼ 20:09, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

Support

  1. Support All the cities and towns in South Tyrol are named based on the majority-language of the population. This needs to be consistent. Gryffindor 11:59, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
  2. Support Ditto, and Meran knows good English usage as well. Tridentinus 17:18, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
  3. Support. Ack Gryffindor. PhJ 17:55, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
  4. Support. Based on the decision made to support naming based on the majority lingual population for the variance of the region. Rarelibra 13:04, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
  5. Support, aye. I'd prefer the dual names, but as this has been outvoted, it should be at the majority's language's name. —Nightstallion (?) 19:51, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

Oppose

  1. Oppose. See above; most common English usage is Merano, and to follow that is policy: WP:NAME#Use English words. Failing that, policy is to use the local official name: (both Meran and Merano are; no hyphenated form is). The ethnic majority (51% in this case) is a stop-gap devised for the frequent cases in the South Tyrol when neither English usage nor the official name as a commune is decisive. It does not apply here; Merano is not an obscure hamlet. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 21:40, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
  2. Oppose I repeat that the name that should be used in the English wikipedia isn't the name used by the majority of the population, but the name most commonly used in English.--Supparluca 20:22, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
  3. Oppose Above all English usage is required in English Wikipedia. That trumps getting a dozen or two dozen people to vote another way. Icsunonove 01:35, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
  4. Oppose per Septentrionalis.--Aldux 16:37, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
  5. Oppose per Septentrionalis. - Ev 20:09, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

Discussion

I know it's tedious, but how does this make sense? The majority speaks German, nevertheless the city is at the Italian name? This is not consistent with the naming scheme of the villages and cities of that region. Either restore the double-name as a fair compromise (Meran-Merano) which I think is only fair and neutral, or move it somewhere else. Gryffindor 17:19, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

You're absolutely right, it should be Meran. The extravagant vote taken here is supersided in the presence of a general convention. Tridentinus 11:54, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
The present location is, as Gryffindor well knows, based on the evidence that Merano is more common in English. The difference in population is feather-thin; IIRC 51%-49%. The English WP does not exist to provide ethnic displays; it exists to communicate with English-speakers. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 18:47, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

Regardless of what Pmanderson thinks, a consensus was reached on this to use the majority lingual population naming convention - and English wiki or not, consensus abounds within wiki, and that is why it should be moved to Meran. We are very close to settling all the naming of articles for this region, with consensus and compromise. Would be nice after 4 years, eh? Rarelibra 13:07, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

It seems to be forgotten often that the convention that was apparently agreed to is: 1) Common English usage 2) local language majority. So in this case 1) Merano 2) very close Italian/German split. The algorithm gives us: Merano. Next.. Icsunonove 17:43, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

The convention we agreed on at Talk:Communes of South Tyrol was to follow English usage, and if there's not a clear preference in English usage (which is the case for most of the municipalities), take the name in the majority language according to census. In practice, all municipalities are at the majority language, except Meran(o), for which more usage (Google 858k:326k) of the Italian Merano was found. It's not an overwhelming majority, neither is the local German-speaking majority (51.5:48.0). For me both Meran and Merano are acceptable article titles, I have no real preference. Markussep 13:40, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. Common English usage must overrule. Merano looks pretty clear to me as the name used in English most often. Also, this follows along my point on Ortisei. It is a famous little tourist town that even the local population use the Standard Italian spelling in tourist brochures, etc. Icsunonove 17:40, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
First you supported the use of double-names for Trentino-South Tyrol as a fair compromise, regardless of Google results. You supported the usage of double-names for cities and villages in the case for "Bolzano-Bozen", or alternatively the name of the majority-speak for villages and cities in South Tyrol. Now you are opposed to having consistency and say that in this case the Italian name should be used. How does this make any sense? Gryffindor 20:22, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
On a purely technical basis I support using Common English usage first. For T-AA/ST that was actually shown to be Trentino-Alto Adige. I wanted a compromise, and also personally prefer Trentino-Alto Adige/Südtirol, so that is what was my first choice. It could pass muster as well, since it is official. Now for the towns: On a personal basis I would prefer double names as I've grown up seeing: Bolzano (Bozen), Bressanone (Brixen), etc. But back to the technical side, there was apparently a consensus found to use a procedure of 1) Common English 2) Language Majority. I wouldn't mind revisiting this idea at some point with a neutral mediator, but at this point I can accept this as long as all names are respected. So in this case, we get Merano as the most common name in English (as Markussep stated). Look, in the language of my family (Nones, maybe it is a Ladin), we say Meran. But Common English usage of this town is Merano, as I'll argue is the case with Ortisei. No matter what, when I create links I try and always use Merano (Meran) and Bolzano (Bozen). Icsunonove 22:10, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

Look, this is really not telling visitors/votors the whole story. The consensus was for English usage first, then majority-language second. Regardless of majority language, common English usage is Bolzano, Merano, Ortisei, etc. In the end, as Ian has stated before, we can't go and create massive confusion with Wikipedia readers in order to pacify certain nationalists. Icsunonove 17:55, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

1) Our consensus was to use double-names and not what is the most common English usage or 2) the name of the majority-speak of the inhabitants of the places. Clearly if the majority of the speakers of this town are German-speaking, then we need to be consistent, otherwise we risk confusing users. Gryffindor 19:20, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
I think we had better find consensus on the consensus then, because right above this conversation Markussep clearly pointed out: "The convention we agreed on at Talk:Communes of South Tyrol was to follow English usage, and if there's not a clear preference in English usage (which is the case for most of the municipalities), take the name in the majority language according to census.". Icsunonove 20:58, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
What Icsunonove quoted above is indeed the result of the discussion at Talk:Communes of South Tyrol. I'm not sure what double-names consensus Gryffindor refers to, I think that's an interpretation of the Trentino-Alto Adige/Südtirol vote. Wikipedia:Naming conventions (common names) is pretty clear, and as PMAnderson correctly stated, the "local majority" rule only applies when there is no clear common name in English. However, the "English use" evidence is only based on one Google search, that should be improved. Markussep 09:57, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
I only say incorrect in regards to your statement "...as Pmanderson (correctly) stated". Wiki has situations where the consensus is reached, and in this case, consensus was not about a "clear common name" since the region is so diverse. Also, please note there are some instances on wiki where the perceived "common" name is actually antiquated and misused, when a more official or proper name can (and should) be used. Rarelibra 16:18, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
I'm not sure what you think is incorrect. Wikipedia is not supposed to judge whether a name is proper or not (neither Merano nor Meran is particularly insulting IMO), and if a name is outdated, you'll notice soon enough (see this Googlefight Tallinn-Reval). The Talk:Communes of South Tyrol consensus was: use the common name in English, and if there is doubt about that, use the local majority name. This leaves some room for discussion, but it works OK for all municipalities except apparently Merano. Markussep 16:47, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
I think for Merano it really is a case where we should just go by what major English encyclopedias use. Actually, using references like Britannica, etc. would cut out a lot of this unnecessary debate for major city names, names of provinces, etc. Icsunonove 17:39, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
That's what the guideline at WP:NCGN says. But Rarelibra, I fear, disagrees with the policy to follow English usage at all. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 17:48, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
Unfortunately, Pmanderson is extremely confused about what policy is versus the use of consensus. Rarelibra
Yes, I have the deplorable illusion that WP:NAME#Use English words is policy; and that consensus is defined by WP:CONSENSUS. Rarelibra sees a higher, clearer Truth; of which he will doubtless convince the rest of us. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 20:11, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

English use

Encyclopedias:

Google scholar (articles from the period 1957-2007, including "italy" to exclude authors with surnames Meran and Merano):

Google news archive (articles from the period 1957-2007, including "italy" to exclude people with surnames Meran and Merano):

Google books (from the period 1957-2007, including "italy" to exclude people with surnames Meran and Merano):

Google English language, only .org, -wiki:

I'm sure several "false hits" slipped through, but the overall picture is clear IMO: both names are used in English, "Merano" more frequently than "Meran". For the statistics enthousiasts: I used a more robust, but very time consuming method in this discussion about Belgian municipalities. Markussep 18:09, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Nice work Markussep; it is nice to keeps things a bit quantitative. I've said above I like the name Meran, but from my own personal experience the city is known in English by the Standard Italian name of Merano. I often visit Ortisei, and I'm willing to bet money that this is the name used most commonly in English as well, not Urtijëi. The locals use the spelling Ortisei with the outside world for the most part. It is exactly the same word actually, and no one is being repressed by putting the article at the Standard Italian name and including the translations in the article. Anyway, want to run your system on that too? :-) Icsunonove 18:20, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

I moved the following Ortisei/Urtijëi discussion to Talk:Urtijëi. Markussep 07:40, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

It's nice research, but wiki allows consensus as well. It seems the consensus is to use the majority language name... since there are those who don't wish to have a dual name. Rarelibra 14:10, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
Well the problem then is there hasn't been consensus to throw out common English usage first. As Markussep as pointed out many times now, the consensus was 1) common English usage 2) local majority language. If we want to knock off 1) then we should have a discussion at the comunes page. We would then need re-address the whole subject of the comune names and hopefully have a neutral mediator. All I'm seeing now is en.wikipedia becoming a translation of de.wikipedia. LOL. Icsunonove 17:09, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
Please allow me to reiterate a point which I had been trying to make at an earlier occasion: I find it peculiar how much confidence you (i.e., both sides in this debate!) put into searches on the internet and counts of the respective hits. How sure can you be that those counts tell you anything about the question at hand, viz. whether there is an established English name for Meran(o)? That a place is mentioned in English does not make the particular form chosen an English name. To use a Norwegian example, an Englishman could perfectly well write on his home page that he "had climbed the Glittertind after having crossed the Hardangerfjord". This English usage does not make those names English and cannot possibly establish any precedence. Likewise in the case of Meran(o). People writing travel diaries cannot be expected to check facts as carefully as I expect from an encyclopedia (such as wikipedia). But even if we assume that all speakers of English do use the same rules as encyclopedia, the majority of the form Merano does not really tell us anything. The reason is simply that the town has had an Italian-speaking majority from the 1940 to the 1980s. Therefore, during this period it would have been correct to use the form Merano even in the absence of an English name for the town. Now, everybody writing about the town after 1991 (the year of the first census after WW2 with a German-speaking majority) and relying upon sources published before 1991 would still believe that Merano is the correct form. She may not even be aware of the fact that other forms exist, or how tiny the Italian-speaking majority had been (about as tiny as the current German-speaking majority). In addition, official Italian maps still use the Italian versions of the names (either first or exclusively). So foreigners cannot really be blamed for using the "wrong" form even if we assume that they – in the absence of an established English name – were trying to use the local form.
I am afraid my point of view cannot solve the problem. It only says that I believe internet counts are futile. If it suggests anything, it is that English sources older than 1921 should be checked. If most of them use Merano rather than Meran, the case is closed (I think). Otherwise, I am not really sure. Personally, I favor the local form (see also Talk:Urtijëi) since I honestly doubt that a town of Meran(o)'s size ever has had an established English name. Forgive my interference in this debate, but I simply couldn't stand its arguments any more. 129.241.87.222 17:05, 24 May 2007 (UTC) (Hanno)
P.S.: And 1 more thing: please stop to use the word "consenus". Do you really think, after all these debates, that a consensus will ever be reached? (This means unanimity!)
You're right, Google hits aren't very reliable. In English encyclopedias and English maps, you find Merano, so Merano could be considered the English name. The naming conventions say that we should use the English names, and that if it is not clear which is the English name, we should use the current local name. In this case, if we choose the English name then it's Merano, if we choose the current local name then it is, again, Merano. So I think that we can peacefully accept this name and ignore the troublemakers.--Supparluca 15:17, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
Dear Supparluca, it is a complete enigma to me how you can make yourself believe that anything of what I have written supports anything of what you wrote in reply. To be sure, I don't have any strong emotions in favour of or against any form (neither Meran nor Merano). However, I would like to draw your attention to the fact that you arrived at your conclusion (Merano) on the basis of two mistakes, i.e. one factual error and one logical error.
The factual error is that you think the local form is Merano. However, the local form is Meran. (This form is used by 52% of the population of the town. According to the information given by some Italian-speaking contributors to this talk page, the percentage may even be higher, since some local or nearby Italian dialects seem to use the form Meran rather than Merano.)
The logical error is the same which I pointed out above using the example with google counts: if you see an English encyclopedia or map which uses the form Merano, this can have any of the following reasons: (a) Merano is an established English name of this town. (b) The encyclopedia was written after the 1940s and before the end of the 1980s, in which period Merano would have been the local majority name. (c) The encyclopedia relied on a source written after the 1940s and before the end of the 1980s without checking whether majorities had changed in the meantime. (d) The encyclopedia/map relied on one of the many Italian-language sources which still ignore the proper local names, erronously assuming that the names given were local names. In cases (b) to (d) your reasoning would be circular. Only in case (a) would your conclusion be justified. In order to verify that case (a) is the actual reason for giving Merano in English, one would, as I mentioned, have to consult an English encyclopedia from before 1921. I have just checked the 11th edition of the Encyclopaedia Britannica (1910/11). It has an article about "MERAN, the chief town of the administrative district of the same name in the Austrian province of the Tirol" and does not mention the form Merano a single time. So if you still think Merano is the established English form, the burden of proof is yours.
With kind regards, 80.212.224.56 10:08, 30 May 2007 (UTC) (Hanno)
Some of your words make me believe that you are trying to state that one name is better than the other, so it's useless to discuss. I just clarify two things: with "local name" I meant just the local name, not the name used by the majority of the population living in that city; and it doesn't help to cite the Encyclopaedia Britannica 1910/11, because we are talking about the current name (and in 1911 Merano was even in another country).--Supparluca 19:41, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
Dear Supparluca, allow me 3 short comments. Regarding "better": there is no need to project your own attitude onto others. Regarding "local": what on earth do you mean by "local name" if not the name used by the local population? Regarding "1910": your response confirmed my suspicion that your reasoning about "established English use" was circular. Best wishes, 80.212.224.57 11:44, 3 June 2007 (UTC) (Hanno)
We have different opinions, I respect yours, and I'm not interested in changing it.--Supparluca 17:23, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
The present usual English usage is Merano, although Meran can be found. This has changed since 1911; not surprisingly, since the city has changed country. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 17:11, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Meran, a compromise

If it makes anybody feel better, I would have no objection to having the first line use Meran in boldface, in addition, or even in place of, Merano. But it really should be located at Merano, where it has been, following English usage. If there is interest in this, do comment here. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 20:11, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

As I already said, I think that the most neutral solution (that is, by the way, also the best solution) is to apply the naming conventions like all the other articles, so I disagree with this proposal.--Supparluca 17:09, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
As I read WP:NCGN (" It is customary to bold the article title name, and its frequently used English language synonyms"), we really should include Meran. Since you insist on Merano, and you are within your rights to do so, we must include it also. If someone sees a convenient way to phrase this, and nobody complains, it may be as well to have both. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 21:09, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
Do we have noting better to do? In my two years on wikipedia, this discussion has been going on and on and on... and on and on and on... Almost no one in this discussion is from Meran- I am actually from Meran and German speaking. I don't care were the article is as long as everybody will find it! (by typing either "Meran" or "Merano"- thank god we have "redirect"). So, whatever you do- please leave afterwards a big-fat memo at the top of this discussion page telling everyone that this matter is now settled and NOT EVER again open for further debate! Thanks,noclador 22:45, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
I'll second this; wohlgetan!. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 18:10, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
I agree with the above opinion that the name of the article doesn't really matter much. I believe, however, that the discussion will not be laid dead unless the final decision fulfils the condition of having a VALID BASIS. There are valid arguments for Merano (e.g., the form used by the national linguistic majority), for Meran (e.g., the form used by the local and the regional linguistic majority), for Meran/Merano and for Merano/Meran (e.g., bilinguality of the town and region), and I won't argue in favour of, or against, any of them. Whichever decision is reached, however, it should not be based on erroneous (such as "Merano is 'the' local form") or circular arguments (such as "Merano is the established English form") – otherwise I am afraid the decision won't be long-lasting. Good luck, 88.88.248.105 19:31, 18 June 2007 (UTC) (Hanno)

Some tourist brochures, etc talk about "Meran(o)".

Maia-Mais etc

I'm sorry, but Maia is NOT the English name, but the Italian. You can't argue seriously that Maia is a widely used English name for the quarter, so why should the German name stand in brackets? And on Wikipedia:Naming conventions (geographic names) I can't find a passage that justifies your changes, but i found this: Where the above tests, therefore, give no indication of a widely used English name, those articles are placed according to the language of the linguistic majority. If these conditions apply elsewhere, this solution may be worth considering. 212.171.132.62 11:01, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Using either the Italian or German names for places in South Tyrol has been discussed many times already here on the English Wikipedia. More people seem to be in favour of the Italian names. Tubantia 11:08, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
I know that there have been long discussions and I'm not interested in extending them. According to the Naming conventions we should use an English name, if existing. Otehrwise we use the name used by the local majority. In this case, I'm not able to understand Supparluca's opinion that Maia is an English name. It's nonsense to think that there are widely used English names for little villages, quarters, hills and rivers in South-Tyrol. 212.171.128.22 11:16, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
I must agree on that one. It will be hard to find evidence for "English names" for these. Tubantia 11:24, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

The Mais area is generally German speaking and Maia is hardly used. Millbanks (talk) 08:58, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

Move?

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was page renamed to "Meran". —harej (talk) 08:12, 5 July 2009 (UTC)


Merano → Meran — As per discussion on Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (geographic names) (and as announced on Talk:Province of Bolzano-Bozen/Naming) the Wikipedia:Naming conventions (geographic names)#Province of Bolzano-Bozen section has been modified and as the city of Merans population is listed on page 6 of the official linguistic survey of the area to be 51,50% German, 48,01% Italian and 0,49% Ladin and in accordance with the new and uncontested modifications to the naming convention regarding locations in the aforementioned province the the article needs to be moved to Meran. noclador (talk) 22:31, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

  • Support, as per Noclador --Mai-Sachme (talk) 07:35, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
  • Support. The move could be done right away as the current title is an obvious mistake. Every community in Alto-Adige/Südtirol is found under the name used by the local majority, Meran is the only exception. I suggest moving the article right away to put it in line with all other related articles.JdeJ (talk) 12:09, 26 June 2009 (UTC)
  • Support as per my post, the naming convention and as per User JdeJ; --noclador (talk) 15:30, 26 June 2009 (UTC)
  • Support as per Noclador. Since Google searches of "Meran" or "Merano" are unreliable to say the least, due to the multiple meanings of the word, as I found out myself, the naming convention specified for the province provides the basis for "Meran". Gun Powder Ma (talk) 19:30, 27 June 2009 (UTC)
  • Very strongly oppose. This is the German national faction on the loose; there is also an Italian national faction (have they been notified of this?). There is policy against making the same appeal again and again, with no new evidence, in the hopes of attracting a new jury. Meran is an exception, as WP:NCGN said until these same editors changed it, because Merano appears to be English usage; which should prevail over decade-old population statistics. Those are a stop-gap for when English usage is indeterminable, and not otherwise. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 20:52, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
  • Very strong oppose. "Merano" is used in English. --Checco (talk) 11:52, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
Can you prove that?? --noclador (talk) 11:55, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
  • Strong oppose, either because the title should be as in English usage: Merano, either to not bring again ethnic discussions in wikipedia .--Bramfab (talk) 12:03, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
And again: Could you please prove that Merano is the clearly favoured name? Otherwise you're just ignoring the Naming Conventions... --Mai-Sachme (talk) 15:47, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
@Pmanderson: first you did not oppose the changes to naming convention for the entire month that we wanted to discuss them, then there was consensus to remove the ambiguous sentence about Meran forced through by Icsunonove and his plethora of socks (Supparluca et. al.) and you did not oppose the changes done, now suddenly you pop up and throw around accusations of "German national faction" on loose???? hello! Mai-Sachme is Italian, I am the one working on all the Italian Army articles and a proud Alpino and JdeJ is Swedish! Prove that there is "a widely used English name" - you will find that this is not possible and in such a case the language majority rule applies. --noclador (talk) 21:33, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
+1 I'm quite sick of being called a German nationalist. I was really convinced that these defamations would stop after Icsunonove's leaving, but obviously they don't... --Mai-Sachme (talk) 22:54, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
but there is a depressing incidence of false positives How should we interprete this statement? Google searches, which established the former rule, are obviously not appropriate. Is there another possible interpretation? --Mai-Sachme (talk) 05:24, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
But let's try it again: a Google Books search is for sure not a good solution to determine an established English name, but at least it shows if there is a clear preference. Here we are (time restriction 1980-2008 to avoid pre-war results): Meran 888 hits, Merano 868 hits... Is this what you would call a clear preference, Septentrionalis? Obviously not, and what should we do now? --Mai-Sachme (talk) 10:48, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

Oppose change. This is a marginal case: the place is hardly unknown in the English language, but it is only somewhat known: the argument could go either way. And it doesn’t much matter which way it goes—as long as we don‘t find ourselves out on a limb when compared to other English language reference works. In that case we would appear to be attempting to make a political point, and Wikipedia would lose credibility. What we don’t want is for the argument to go a different way each month and to be followed, each month, by a move of the article and a load of links to it in other articles. That would be ludicrous. Therefore I think we need to be conservative: the onus is on those who want to make the move to demonstrate one of the following:

  • That the commonest English usage, as shown in similar English-language works of reference, is other than the one we are currently using;
  • That similar English-language works of reference are more or less evenly split between Meran and Merano (both of which have dotted underlines as likely bad spellings in Firefox with the en-GB spell-checker turned on, by the way), but that there is a clear English-language usage elsewhere which goes against our current usage;
  • That English usage at least very marginally leans towards suggesting a move and that the local usage (which we follow when all else fails) very clearly suggests such a move
  • That the place seems simply to be too insignificant to appear in English-language reference works, in which case we follow local usage, even if its only split 60:40;

I have three such reference works to hand. The index to the Blue Guide to Northern Italy has only ‘Merano’; the indispensible Everyman’s Encyclopedia in twelve portable volumes (1961) has this to say: ‘Merano’ It. tn in Trentino-Alto Adige (q.v.) on the Passirio, a trib. of the Adige (q.v.). It is at the foot of the Ötzal (q.v.) Alps, and is a health and holiday resort. It has a 15th-cent. castle and a 14th-cent. Gothic church. Pop. (tn) 25,900; (com.) 32,900. The invaluable What’s What 1902 has no entry. Ian Spackman (talk) 13:48, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

Discussion

The principle on which this was originally placed is stated thus: (and these words are not presently in dispute: one solution is to follow English usage where it can be determined, and to adopt the name used by the linguistic majority where English usage is indecisive. This has been done, for example, with the communes of the province of Bolzano-Bozen, based on an officially published linguistic survey of the area (see Italy below). Let it be shown that English usage is indecisive, and then we can discuss whether 2% or 3% more German-speakers in a census eight years ago is enough basis to name this town. (Do recall that every other commune in Bozen-Bolzano has a decisive majority; the least is around 59% and many are around 90%.) Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:41, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

You missunderstand the current rule... It's not our job to prove indecisive usage, you have to prove a clear English usage. But anyway: A short look on Google Books provides a big amount of usage of both variants [3] & [4]. --Sincerely, Your fanatic German nationalist, who wants to eradicate all Italian names (talk) 23:02, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
An odd claim, since I was part of the long discussion that established that "rule", and I phrased most of the present text. At that time, there appeared to be a clear majority of usage for Merano. Stare decisis, unless there are grounds to overturn more convincing than the belly-aches of ethnic champions - new evidence, for example. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 23:09, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
Yes, I did not care and did not want to get involved into the petty fights that one editor (Taalo, Icsunonove, Supparluca,... and so on) had begun, until 2 years later when I saw what horrible, disastrous crap the editor in his biased campaign produced! typical example: "Neue Südtiroler Tageszeitung" correctly translated as "New South Tyrolean Daily" was suddenly the "New Province of Bolzano-Bozen Daily"... and so on - and much worse! What I am doing now is cleaning up after said editor as he put abstruse claims/inventions into articles i.e. Ladin is just a kind of Italian dialect, the Steinerner Steg in Meran is actually a Roman bridge, in 1178 the Brenner Pass was conquered by Venice in a war with Verona,... and so on. Believe me, there are thousands of edits that had to be checked! He even changed Austrian biologist to Italian biologists, even though they were born in South Tyrol in the 18 century and studied, lived, published and died in Vienna before the 19th century had even begun!!! In short the "editor" did massive damage to wikipedia! and if an individual with such an agenda is ready to falsificate wiki articles and uses for that purpose a plethora of socks than I believe that also all discussion he participated in are a no longer valid. --noclador (talk) 00:09, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
and what would be the right procedure??? btw. although the census is 8 years old, every comune has always the up to date data about its population as every citizen moving to or away from a comune has to communicate that to authorities. In Meran the Italian population has massively decreased over the last 8 years, because of the reduction and disbandment of the last military units in the city. The last unit in Meran the 24° Reggimento Logistico di Manovra will soon leave too; which will reduce the Italians in town by another 400-600 people... so, if we wait another 2 years we will see that the Italians will have fallen by then under the 40% mark... (largely to the disbandment of the 5° Reggimento Artiglieria da Montagna and the 18° Reggimento Alpini), but because of the fact that the census defines the allotment of jobs for each language group in the provinces public sector for ten years, it is only published every ten years and in force for ten years; therefore no official data will be published until then... but the unofficial numbers we can get by placing a call to the city of Meran. --noclador (talk) 00:21, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
Predictions about future population are crystal-balling. ISTAT will have UTD info in two years, but until then... .--chaser (talk) 07:19, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
Anyway, the population ratio in Meran/o was quite stable over years, a sudden change of the majority (as mentioned by Septentrionalis) is not very likely... --Mai-Sachme (talk) 09:18, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
I am quite curious to know what would be the right procedure, too. And actually, I am not convinced that US law terms are applicable on Wikipedia as you suggest. Icsunonove and his mobster pushed for a special rule based on Google hits several years ago because at those times he was on the loose as you would say. And now we should keep it for procedural reasons? Absurd... --Mai-Sachme (talk) 05:31, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
I see the appeal of naming cities in this region based on majority usage, but it still seems odd that a city in Italy would have a German name on English Wikipedia where the languages are almost in parity. OTOH, the guideline makes sense for this border area, so an exception isn't compelling. I'd be happy with either, although I wouldn't implement this move on my own. Disclosure: I taught English for two years in Italy, in case anyone things that makes me part of some faction.--chaser (talk) 07:19, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

Septentrionalis, care to explain what the "right procedure" is? Please enlighten us. Gun Powder Ma (talk) 12:23, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

The right procedure offers two choices:
  • Establish consensus here to move - in which case NCGN will reflect that the customs it describes have changed; this will require either convincing the Italian faction, or convincing a large number of other people, not involved in the silly issue, that you are right and that it matters. This is where new evidence matters.
  • Leave it alone, as other trivialities (AD v. CE; color v. colour) are left alone. After all, there is a redirect; everyone can find it; and Merano is commonly used in English.
My judgment is that the first (which is admittedly quite difficult) has not been tried; therefore I strongly support the second. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 16:44, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

Hm, you are entitled to your opinion, but neither of your "right" procedures is anywhere to be found in the WP regulations, which, as you well know, should form the basis of any decision. So what is your argument, besides your opinion, for keeping "Merano"? Gun Powder Ma (talk) 19:44, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

What I have said is WP:Consensus. Any editor worth discussing with would know we don't have "regulations." Septentrionalis PMAnderson 20:38, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

First of all, I object to the rudeness of Septentrionalis/PManderson; the user's lack of civilty speaks volumes. I would appreciate if the user would remain from speculating about my nationality based on my edits. Not so much for the fact that his speculations are wrong as for the fact that the nationalities of contributors are irrelevant, it is factual argument that decide. I have left a warning on his/her userpage over this behaviour.

  • For every single community in Alto Adige, we use the name of the majority in the community. In Meran, that majority is German-speaking.
  • Unless it can be proven that the Italian name is established English usage in this case, unlike the case of all neighbouring communities, it logically follows that we should apply the same naming conventions for Meran as for all other communities.
  • The burden of proof thus is on Septentrionalis/PManderson to show that Merano, and not Meran, is the established English usage or provide reasons for why we should apply a different naming convention to this municipality than to all others in the province.JdeJ (talk) 21:54, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
    • The only reason we paid any attention to population statistics at all is that places like Moos in Passeier must go somewhere, and have two equal official names and limited coverage in English. Rather than place the article at Moos/Moso, and have the good patriots of the two contending nationalities argue over the order, as is their wont, we picked one. The real question is why we should treat Merano differently than we treat Cologne or Rome, where we use the French form without considering population. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:11, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
Dear Septentrionalis, whatever your opinion is, it is not WP:Consensus, because WP:Consensus makes it abundantly clear that "Consensus is not in numbers" and neither you nor anybody else who voted "strong oppose", "super strong oppose" or "super super strong oppose" have brought anything to the table in form of arguments against "Meran". How you personally interpret the names of "Cologne" or "Rome" has no bearing on the question on how the communities in South Tyrol are to be called for which we have an own established set of guidelines. As it currently stands, Meran is the logical and justified choice according to WP rules. Gun Powder Ma (talk) 22:15, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
Consensus is not in numbers; it is in agreement - which your faction do not possess. Cut and paste moves, like this one, are unlikely to produce such agreement; neither is Wikilawyering. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:44, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
Neither side can claim any universal agreement, that's why we're debating. What "our faction" can claim is firm support in similar articles and in factual arguments. Rome is established English usage thus we use Rome rather than Roma. As long as no proof has been put forward of Merano being the established English usage, the argument remains that we follow the majority language of the community. Up to this point, the arguments for naming the article Meran are extremely clear (in line with common usage, following the majority language in the community) while no valid argument has been put forward for Merano. To answer your question, why we should treat Meran different from Cologne and Rome, well, perhaps because Meran is a small local town in the Alps with little coverage in English while Rome and Cologne have both been capitals of countries with more than 50 million inhabitants. That places Meran firmly in the same situation as Moos in Passeier and countless of small towns in multilingual regions, not in the folder of capitals of major European countries.JdeJ (talk) 09:11, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

Hey guys, could the oppose faction (to use Septentrionalis' diction) please only try once to prove that Merano is significantly more used than Meran? Otherwise you're just ignoring the Naming Conventions and a further discussion is useless... For those who don't know the current rules: Therefore articles about locations in the province of Bolzano-Bozen are placed according to the language of the linguistic majority, except where the widely used English name is adequately substantiated and is different from that of the majority language group. Thank you --Mai-Sachme (talk) 12:58, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

The onus is on those who want to make a change to make their case. Ian Spackman (talk) 13:50, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
Wikipedia doesn't follow the rule Who comes first, wins... --Mai-Sachme (talk) 14:20, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
It is a requested move: the case for a move needs to be made, and I am perfectly relaxed about your making it. But make it: if you search for Meran on http://www.britannica.com —a rather reliable guide to common English usage I would think—you get the result: ‘Did You Mean...Merano (Italy)’. (If you follow that up you get a rather feeble summary of the entry in 1960’s Everyman entry: ‘city, Trentino–Alto Adige regione, northern Italy. It lies at the foot of the central chain of the Alps, at the confluence of the Passirio and Adige rivers, northwest of the city of Bolzano.’Ian Spackman (talk) 14:35, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
Spackman, you've misundetstood this. The case for moving is exceptionally clear. Every community in the province of Alto Adige is named according to the majority language in that community, Meran is at this moment the only exception. As the move is in line with Wikipedia titles not only for this region but also for similar regions in multilingual countries (Belgium, Finland, Switzerland), the case for the move is very clear and has been spelt out countless of time. Regardless of on whom the onus is, the present case here is that the side requesting a move has pointed out in great details the case for that move. Your faction has only done what you just did: refused to even read our arguments and tried to avoid having to build your own case by calling on us to develop ours once again. We have made our case very clear: Meran is the majority name of the municipality and that is the guideline we follow for every single community in Alto Adige.JdeJ (talk) 07:15, 1 July 2009 (UTC)
As for Spackman's quotes from the 1960s, they stem from a time when the idea of "one country, one language" still held sway. And English language use also changes, we used to talk about Helsingfors, Lyons and Marseilles, we now talk about Helsinki, Lyon and Marseille. In more contemporary sources, we often find both Merano and Meran in English, bringing us back to the question of why 1 out of 116 communities in Alto-Adige should deviate from the principle of using the majority language of every community.JdeJ (talk) 07:20, 1 July 2009 (UTC)
The first rule is that where there is an established usage in English we use that. We rightly gnored Turin’s attempts to re-brand itself as ‘Torino’ (in English, mean) during the Winter Olympics, for instance. Only where there is no established usage do we apply the local language convention.Ian Spackman (talk) 07:48, 1 July 2009 (UTC)
Britannica? Ian Spackman (talk) 07:48, 1 July 2009 (UTC)
You're quite right, when there is an established usage in English, we use that name. I think everybody agrees on that. The call we have made, time and time again, is for anyone to show that Merano is, in fact, established English usage. Few places that size even have an established English usage. Septentrioanlis tried to compare it to capitals of major European countries. Let me point out that I am not saying that Merano could not be shown to be established English usage, I've merely pointed that the case has not been made, this far. That Merano is in use has been shown, just as it has been shown that Meran also is in use in English. The questions remains whether one is significantly more common that the other. If that is the case, we should use that name. If not, we should follow the majority language of the municipality.JdeJ (talk) 08:31, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

Major European capitals is bafflegab: Cologne was never a major capital, and hasn't been the capital of anything for two centuries; the only reason I chose Rome, rather than Florence or Venice or Nuremburg or Pilsen, was variety.

There is no advantage to the encyclopedia in this change. Anybody (and it's doubtless limited to the dozen people who have been involved in this discussion) who knows that other communes in the area follow the linguistic majority should know that this is an exception to our general rules, and that Merano should not reasonably be expected to follow it, especially on the basis of a 51.5% majority eight years ago. How do we know a few hundred Milanese workers (and their families) haven't followed the tourist trade?

There would be a marked success in ethnic point-scoring, however; it is that which I strongly oppose. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 15:50, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

Very very very unlikely: History of South Tyrol#Linguistic and demographic history and the fact that you usually have to prove German language skills to get a job should not be really attracting to Milanese workers. With other words: nothing else than a straw man argument... And let's state that cities like Rome or Florence or Venice or Nuremberg or Cologne can be considered quite important and famous in the English speaking world (Pilsen is by the way nothing else than the German spelling) while Meran is a little town in the mountains. --Mai-Sachme (talk) 18:59, 1 July 2009 (UTC)
"ethnic point-scoring" is a strong reason you oppose the move??? oh,... well, I am from Meran and I can tell you that the people that moved to city over the last years follwoing the tourist trade were mostly Croatian, Czech and Slovak. No Milanese in sight,... and each year there are less children in the Italian language elementary schools (especially in Untermais, where the Army personnel lived); so if you insist on better numbers - it's two years until the next census and then we will have to move it anyway.
I wish to move the page because Meran has been for centuries the name of the city, Meran is the name used by the cities majority, Meran is the most common name in English (just look at chess: Meran variation: 2,960 Merano variation: 9) and we all know that the move from Meran to Merano was the works of a sock-mob controlled by Icsunonove. So tell me: what speaks against a move? This is not an ethnic point-scoring match - it is about undoing an bad faith erroneous move. --noclador (talk) 19:05, 1 July 2009 (UTC)
The one thing we have asked for is proof that Merano is established English usage, but all Septentrionalis seems to be able to come up with is mindless ramblings about our nationalities, pointless comparisons with much larger cities and WP:CRYSTAL speculations about whether more Italians have moved to Merano. All of this is entirely irrelevant to the discussion. Is Merano established English usage or not? That is the question we try to address here. So far, no proof has been put forward.JdeJ (talk) 19:13, 1 July 2009 (UTC)
No case has been made that Meran is any improvement to the encyclopedia; so there is nothing to answer. Even were there any actual case, the answer is already on this page, in the section conveniently called #English use. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 19:40, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

Summary

Trying to sum up the discussion, and ignoring irrelevant outbursts about users' nationalities, ethnic-point scoring, Crystal-balling and other non-factual arguments, three things seem obvious.

  • Despite numerous calls for proof that Merano is established English usage, no such proof has been put forward. While it has been shown that Merano is used in English, it has also been shown that Meran is about as widely used.
  • There is no doubt at all about the situation on the ground, as we have firm evidence in the Italian census. German is the majority language in the municipality.
  • For 115 out of 116 municipalities in Alto-Adige, we use the name of the local majority language. Meran is the only exception. While established English usage would override looking at the majority language, more than a week of discussions has not produced any proof for such established usage. Lacking such usage, there is no reason why Meran should be treated differently than the other 115 communities in Alto Adige. The case for moving this article to Meran thus seems solid.JdeJ (talk) 19:22, 1 July 2009 (UTC)
Contrary to what Septentrionalis claims, there are obvious advantages to moving the article to Meran
  • It brings this Alto Adige article in line with the 115 other Alto Adige articles.
  • It follows the naming conventions (using the majority language of the municipality) employed on Wikipedia for many countries, including Belgium, Finland Switzerland and Italy.JdeJ (talk) 07:53, 3 July 2009 (UTC)
regarding the section called: #English use... pretty ridiculous as the time frame has been reduced to only include articles, news and papers published after 1957 and the word Italy has been added... google searches can be manipulated and as I said before at Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (geographic names) google searches should be dropped and not used at all! and just to give you an idea how the city of Meran thinks: if you go to the official homepage of the city http://www.merano.eu/ you are redirected to http://www.meran.eu/ !! nota-bene at www.Merano.eu there is only a redirect! --noclador (talk) 16:20, 3 July 2009 (UTC)
Sigh. As Noclador should know, both Meran and Merano are official names; the suggestion that the URL (which, like us, must have one form) makes one somehow more official is nonsense. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 18:40, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

Yes, and as Septentrionalis knows very well, we have decided to use only one name (Bolzano instead of Bolzano-Bosen and Brixen instead of Brixen-Bressanone. We have also decided to use the majority name of each community, be it Italian (Bolzano) or German (Brixen). In the case of Meran, both Meran and Merano are official names but Meran is the name of the majority in the municipality, according to the latest Italian census, and that is why the article should be moved to Meran.JdeJ (talk) 19:06, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

You've said that before, and it has convinced no one. That's not what the majority is used for, and Merano (and the above statistics) were part of the same compromise which used population majorities (when there is a 98% majority, not 51.5%) to decide cases in which there was no English evidence to speak of.
You misquote that compromise, and abuse our patience. This disruptive nationalism has gained no voices; this should be closed. There is no consensus on this, and no evidence that Meran would be an improvement. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 19:41, 3 July 2009 (UTC)
Septentrionalis, I would advice you to learn how to conduct a civil debate, you have already been warned about your behaviour. Previously, you have used false arguments about other users' nationalities and made other irrelevant but insulting claims. Now you do it again, calling every who doesn't agree with you "disruptive nationalists". By resorting once again to insults, you reveal not only your own lack of education but also your lack of factual arguments. Neither am I impressed by your attempt to try to elevate yourself to some kind of judge deciding whom my arguments convince or not. I fully accept that they haven't convinced you, and that is all you can say. The same goes for your talk about "abusing our patience". It is pathetic attempt to silence factual arguments that you do not agree with but lack the ability to answer in a factual way. There is no "compromise" related to Merano or even Alto Adige, it is a principle we use for many other countries as well. We go by the majority language of bilingual communities, regardless of whether that majority is 99.99% or 50.01% - there are plenty of examples of both. The only exception is in cases with an established English usage, and the discussion here has made it very clear that both Meran and Merano are common in English. You know that the factual arguments are against you, and I guess that is why you resort to insults and disruptive behaviour. I would like to point out that this goes only for Septentrionalis. Even though I don't agree with Ian Spackman on the issue currently under debate, he has remained civil and polite, just like every other user except Septentrionalis.JdeJ (talk) 20:25, 3 July 2009 (UTC)
And here we go again: JdeJ's position remains unsupported save by those few who came in supporting it; it remains without evidence; it remains contrary to the evidence which Markussep provided above.
He also continually misstates what our guidance is. The discussion on which this is based is at Talk:Communes_of_the_province_of_Bolzano-Bozen and its archives; this section is particularly clear. There are four towns for which "local majority" was never considered: Brixen, Bolzano, Merano, and Brenner; they were named on the basis of English usage - that this happens, in three and a half cases, to be the native language of the inhabitants helped a decision to use the linguistic majority as an expedient for the rest of the Autonomous Province. The opposition was "call them by Italian names - they're in Italy," which would have avoided this entire spurious argument.
Doubtless this will be called abuse as well; Harry Truman had an apt rejoinder, which I see is in Wikiquote.Septentrionalis PMAnderson 21:59, 3 July 2009 (UTC)
  • yawn* We are still expecting evidence that Merano is significantly more used than Meran (and please without using silly Google hits). But obviously Septentrionalis is thinking that his ramblings about nationialists, Florence and Venice, procedural questions and so on are more promising. And the next time you call me a "disruptive nationalist" you get an AN/I report for uncivilty... --Mai-Sachme (talk) 06:21, 4 July 2009 (UTC)
Mai-Sachme is of course perfectly right. Lacking the ability to provide any factual arguements supporting his case, Septentrionalis has had to resort to ramblings about other things, hoping that the real question will be forgotten. I am especially amused by his claim that what I say is unsupported save by a few. As we are four active contributors here, three of us supporting Meran and Septentrionalis being alone for Merano, having a few supporters is not that bad :-) The fact that remains is that we follow local majority languages in all communities unless there is an established English usage. In Meran, Meran is the local majority use and no evidence has been given for Merano being significantly more used in English than Meran.JdeJ (talk) 08:12, 4 July 2009 (UTC)


Examples

Here are just some examples of bilingual communities in many other European countries, in each case the language of the majority is used for Wikipedia. I give four examples from each country. In many of these cases, the margin is very small, failing Septentrionalis' claim that we only go by majority languages with large majorities.

In almost these cases, and cases (like Cologne, Nuremburg, Pilsen, Florence) where there is only a negligible population of the language from which English takes the name, we use what English normally uses, per WP:UE. What proportion of the Viennese have Latin as their mother tongue? This includes Brixen and Bolzano.
We will do the same for Urtijëi, if the evidence exists; the evidence does exist on Merano.
As a mere matter of fact, the census JdeJ so airily cites has the linguistic majorities for Brixen, Bolzano and Urtijëi: 73%, 73% and 82%. I'd call those "large" myself; what definition is JdeJ using? Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:15, 3 July 2009 (UTC)
What about the original question of this move request? Is there evidence that Merano is significantly more used than Meran? And is it prossible to show this evidence without Goggle hits? --Mai-Sachme (talk) 06:24, 4 July 2009 (UTC)
I agree with Mai-Sachme above. I also wonder if Septentrionalis is serious when he suggests that small places like Nykarleby, Murten or Büllingen even have an established English name. That is of course plain nonsense; you can look at how small municipalities as you want and we always follow local majority usage. And all the talk about English usage in moot, as no evidence has been put forward for Merano being more common English usage than Meran, as Mai-Sachme, Noclador and myself have pointed out time and time again now. It looks more and more as if Septentrionalis is being disruptive, trying to prolong the debate for the sake of prolonging it, without offering anything new to it, in an attempt to delay the move that would put Meran in line not only with the 115 other communities in the province, but also in line with Wikipedia usage for similar places all over Europe. As for local majorities, you find communities with 55% or 57% majorities among the examples I gave, very close to the case of Meran.JdeJ (talk) 08:23, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

The case for Meran

Hoping to bring the discussion back to focusing on factual arguments, I have some straightforward questions that I hope will settle the situation. Septentrionalis, the only user still actively argumenting against a move to Meran, says that the arguments Noclador, Mai-Sachme and I make convince "noone". As our claims are rather straightforward and factual, I do not know what it is that he doesn't find convincing. Here are the questions:

  • Does Septentrionalis deny that for 115 out of 116 communities in Alto Adige, we currently use the municipality's name in the majority language as the title of the Wikipedia article? And that Meran currently is the only exception?
  • Does Septentrionalis deny that the majority language, based on the last Italian census, in Meran is German?
  • Does Septentrionalis deny that Meran is widely used in English to describe this community?

I hope that Septentrionalis could try to answer these simple questions rather than guessing what our nationalities might be (I'm Swedish-French, by the way), what our ethnicites might be (still Swedish-French), what our motives might be (consistency with other articles, respect for minority languages) and just plain personal abuse.JdeJ (talk) 12:50, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Requested move to Merano (5 July 2009)

Meran → Merano — Meran was the name of this city, as used in English, before the First World War. Ian Spackman (talk) 14:10, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

Perhaps this is uncontroversial, but let me give one example:

We now proceed to the Etschtal, better known, probably, in this country as the valley of the Adige…. Meran, the old capital of the Counts of Tyrol […] is still called the town, as Rome was of yore called Urbs. <Theodore Foster, in the The Foreign Quarterly Review (1837) [5]>

Clearly the American author needed to explain to his readers what the Etsch referered to, but as to ‘Meran’: that was then its name when writing in English.

This usage, however, has become unusual and generally archaic. It is still quite commonly used to refer to the place in an historical context, but in such cases it is typically glossed, so that (like Foster’s Etsch) readers will know what is being referred to:

In 1213 the king’s German wife, Gertrude of Meran (now Merano, Italy) was killed by rebellious Magyar nobles. <Avner Falk, A psychoanalytic history of the Jews (Associated University Presses, 1996), p.436>

Less scholarly writers follow the same pattern, The rough guide to Austria [Yes that is Austria] has

‘…the Tyrol began life as a medieval dukedom centred on Meran (now Merano in Italy)’

The Encyclopedia of the Stateless Nations: S-Z, in its interesting article on Tyrol, also identifies the English language usage as Merano:

‘Merano, locally called Meran, the region’s historical capital’.<James Minahan, Encyclopedia of the Stateless Nations: S-Z (Greenwood Publishing Group, 2002)>

In general (rather than purely historical) use we should beware of departing from the following authorities, all of which treat Merano as the standard name in contemporary English, because if we do depart from the standard most intelligent readers will conclude that we are trying to make a political point:

The best I can find to counteract that in modern useage is Frommer's Northern Italy which gives the article title as ‘Meran’, but uses ‘Merano’ throughout the article itself.

In conclusion Use English is the baseline when naming articles. It should not be abused—clearly we should not move Piz Badile to Shovel Peak, or Mont Blanc to White Mountain; probably we shouldn’t move Mumbai to Bombay or Beijing to Peking; it’s arguable (although I would be in favour of it) that we shouldn’t even move Livorno to Leghorn or Trento to Trent. But like Piz Badile, Mont Blanc, Beijing and Mumbai, the proper English language name for this article in an English language ecyclopedia is Merano. Ian Spackman (talk) 14:10, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

Merano is used in English??? that is not correct - all of the follwoing writers use Meran in their English books published after 1990:
so much for Ian Spackmans claim… --noclador (talk) 15:38, 5 July 2009 (UTC)
This list is even worse than I expected; please note that I have commented on those books I have looked at. Silence does not imply consent. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 19:35, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

Ian Spackman has showed that Merano is often used in English and Noclador has showed that Meran is often used in English. This is nothing new, the long discussion during the last request move made it very clear that both forms are in common use in English. In other words, neither Merano nor Meran is established English usage, the usage varies. As there is no established English form, we follow local usage and Wikipedia naming policies, and that is the reason that the page has been moved to Meran. A new move request, following more than ten days of discussion, is perhaps not necessary as no new evidence is brought to the case.JdeJ (talk) 17:26, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

In other words, I suggest that the request be speedy closed. Filing a request for a new move the same day as the decision has been taken and without bringing new evidence to the table is not in line with the policies for moves on Wikipedia.JdeJ (talk) 17:30, 5 July 2009 (UTC)
The move was improper; in substance because there was no consensus; in form because it was done by so inexperienced a user that he left this talk page behind. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 21:00, 5 July 2009 (UTC)
Which form does the Alpine Club use? Gun Powder Ma (talk) 18:05, 5 July 2009 (UTC)
I presume the Austrian Club conducts itself in German and uses Meran; similarly the Italian Alpine club uses Merano. In the English-speaking world, as here, from an Alpine Club Journal, we normally use Merano. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 21:08, 5 July 2009 (UTC)
I mean the British Alpine Club, the one I linked, too, and which happens to be the oldest Alpine clubs of all. They should be sufficiently sensitive to the issue, so that their opinions count. But please no isolated snippet views to page 578, footnote 25b. I am talking of titles of publications, of a sringent naming policy which could serve us as yardstick. Gun Powder Ma (talk) 22:21, 5 July 2009 (UTC)
Since Merano is not a mountain, why should they have a policy on it? Come up with one that says Meran, if you think it relevant. In the meantime, Canadians do speak English and climb the Alps. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:37, 5 July 2009 (UTC)
Are you kidding me? I can't believe the community entrusted you so long with running the naming convention page. I had thought your messing around over there a few weeks ago was a one-off, but no. Has it occurred to you that the Alpine Club has maps, route description, hiker reports, GEO data, weather information, everything, on the Alpes. And last time I checked Meran/Merano is still in the Alpes... Gun Powder Ma (talk) 01:01, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
In short, you can't find any such citation, and are arguing from silence. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 16:58, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
A google search on their website sadly comes up with only one hit for +Meran OR +Merano: ‘Also in October, I attended the first meeting of the UN Global Mountain Partnership in Merano, Italy on behalf of the UIAA’. Ian Spackman (talk) 12:29, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
  • Strong and immediate restore to the old stable name Merano. There was never consensus to move, as the discussion above shows. The list of books cited above as published since 1980 is largely a collection of books about Victorians, translations from the German, and above all reprints of several Victorians, including George Meredith and Sabine Baring-Gould; I am willing to assume the publication dates are correct, but few of them constitute current usage. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 20:32, 5 July 2009 (UTC)
  • Strong oppose as per reasons given in discussion above. Gun Powder Ma (talk) 01:01, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
  • Strong and immediate restore per Ian Spackman and Septentrionalis. --Checco (talk) 16:57, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
  • Strong oppose. First of all, why file a new move request the same day the decision has been taken? This is an issue that two sides disagree about, should the "losing" side always file a new request after every decision? As to the actual question, this request for a move brings nothing new to the table, except for calling in a few new friends of the nominator. Yes, it shows that Merano is often used in English. However, Meran is also often used in English, as the debate going on here for two weeks have shown, so neither name can be considered established English uage. That is no surprise, given that Meran is not a major city such as Rome, Vienna or Cologne but rather a small bilingual alpine town. The naming conventions at WP:PLACE state we should follow the local majority language in the absence of an established English name.JdeJ (talk) 17:12, 6 July 2009 (UTC) Support Move to Merano, please see my reasoning below under the section Merano would be more proper.JdeJ (talk) 20:13, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
    • The answer to all of these is clear: The last move was closed improperly. Therefore, before this non-consensus and POV imposition can claim the advantage of establishment, the previous situation should be restored; and the most usual name in English, which is Merano (see #Use English above) should bwe immediately restored. JdeJ miscites WP:PLACE; what it actually says is:
      When a widely accepted English name, in a modern context, exists for a place, we should use it. This often will be a local name, or one of them; but not always. If the place does not exist anymore, or the article deals only with a place in a period when it held a different name, the widely accepted historical English name should be used. If neither of these English names exist, the modern official name, in articles dealing with the present, or the modern local historical name, in articles dealing with a specific period, should be used.
    Merano does exist; if it had a single official name (and no widely accepted English name) we would use it. But neither of these is true. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 17:38, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
To continue quoting from the same source:
  • In the Province of Bolzano-Bozen (South Tyrol), the local authority recognizes equally two or more names from different languages, and English discussion is often so limited that none of the above tests indicate which of them is widely used in English. However there is an official linguistic survey of the area, by commune, which has the following advantages:
  • It is available on-line, and officially published.
  • The proportions of the various language groups are fairly stable.
  • Most communes have a large majority, often a 90% majority, of one language group.
  • In the few cases where there is a widely used English name, it is usually that of the majority language group.
Therefore articles about locations in the province of Bolzano-Bozen are placed according to the language of the linguistic majority, except where the widely used English name is adequately substantiated and is different from that of the majority language group.
Meran, being a small town, is not widely talked about in English and both Merano and Meran are used. In accordance with the above policy, we follow the majority language of the official linguistic survey, which would give Meran unless Merano is indeed by far the more widely used in English. If that is the case, I look forward to somebody making that argument and backing it up with firm evidence.JdeJ (talk) 18:03, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
  • False on both counts; Merano is not a great city, but neither is it a small town, and is quite often discussed in English. Its population is listed in the article; and usage in English is (again) under #use English above. JdeJ has persistently ignored this section - and his opinion should be given exactly as much weight as he gives the facts. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 18:14, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
Well, Meran has about 37.000 inhabitants. I call that a relatively small town but please feel free to disagree. It is no small village, that is true. Pmanderson may feel I ignore WP:UE but I don't agree. As such, neither Merano nor Meran is an English name. Ian Spackman has presented a lot of evidence for the use of Merano in English while Noclador has presented a lot of evidence for the use of Meran in English. I have read through both and not been able to find that one is significantly more common. Pmanderson will no doubt attribute that view as well to my lack of intelligence.JdeJ (talk) 18:23, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
In short, JdeJ disagrees with the relevant policy and is willing to associate himself with Noclador's list of dated quotations; no, I do not attribute that to a lack of intelligence. His opinion should be given weight accordingly. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 18:53, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
No, I do not disagree with WP:UE, I am just not (yet) convinced that Merano is established English usage. I had a look of Noclador's list and found several new books, primarily travel guides, using Meran.JdeJ (talk) 18:58, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
"When considering a source in determining English usage, remember the purpose of the source. When a guidebook or roadmap written in English shows an autobahn between München and Nürnberg, it is attesting to local usage, because that is what the signs on the autobahn will say; Munich and Nuremberg are still the English names." Septentrionalis PMAnderson 19:19, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
  • Support the move to Merano. WP:UE Here's a tiny bit of English usage: mine, as a native English speaker. I never heard of Meran (other than in chess), but I recognise Merano as a place, and I think I've even driven through it. I should say that's not a convincing argument. However, I can see that the case is made that there is a clear preference in English usage: the evidence of the google hits (and if you want to disallow then, please find a better reason than 'silly'); and the evidence of its usage in other contemporary English encyclopedias. --RexxS (talk) 03:31, 7 July 2009 (UTC)


Closing administrator's remarks

First of all, all of you need to stop getting so worked up over what to name a Wikipedia article.

I judged the debate based on the arguments presented and which ones appeared to generate the most consensus. It was not necessarily easy to follow the discussion, as a lot of it was bickering over agendas and what not. Since closing the discussion, I have read it a second time (yes, I did read it a first time). The dominant rule for naming foreign places is going by their predominant English name. Ultimately, there is an equal usage in the English language, leading this argument to essentially cancel itself out (for every awesome guy who says Merano, there's another saying Meran). Then there are the other issues raised: consistency with the naming pattern in the same region, and how we treat articles who have a language contingency that does not match up with the rest of the country. Those reasons produced a much more convincing argument to have the article at "Meran"; as for "Merano", less arguments exist. Any arguments about users being nationalists were thrown out the window.

I appreciate when procedural objections to my actions are raised (even if I do get frustrated over them). For that reason, I asked the administrators' noticeboard to see if I am crazy or if I did a fair job of evaluating the discussion. —harej (talk) 22:32, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

Oh this is nothing. See the entry under Bozen-Bolzano, under WP:LAME. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:37, 5 July 2009 (UTC)
There is no consensus to change here; there never has been. There is an uneasy stasis between two factions of nationalists, both of whom will say and do almost anything for their National Truths. There was a long-established compromise, that common usage should prevail where it can be ascertained, which is at least on Merano, Bolzano, Brixen, and Brenner [as in the Pass]; there is a section on this very page showing that Merano is now more common. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:48, 5 July 2009 (UTC)
If there was no clear case to move, this should have been left alone. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 23:19, 5 July 2009 (UTC)
Would you please read Wikipedia:Tendentious editing before further accusing other editors to be "nationalists". --noclador (talk) 22:54, 5 July 2009 (UTC)
I invite anyone who questions this to read the discussions linked to above. There are more at Talk:Bolzano/Archive 1. If it quacks like a duck... Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:57, 5 July 2009 (UTC)
That does not make it anymore inappropriate in a place where you're expected to not alienate the editors. —harej (talk) 23:22, 5 July 2009 (UTC)


I am not interested in devoting the rest of my life to this. I used my logical reasoning in an attempt to get to the bottom of what is obviously a contentious topic, and I don't think I will try to devote anymore time unless I truly have to. PMAnderson, I will not have you alienating editors; that is much worse than closing a page move discussion with faulty logic. —harej (talk) 23:22, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

You are free to withdraw; please move the article back, and get someone else to close the original request. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 23:32, 5 July 2009 (UTC)
There was clearly no consensus for a move: the votes to move were equal to those opposing. You say that you ‘judged the debate based on the arguments presented and which ones appeared to generate the most consensus’, but not a single argument on either side generated any consensus: nobody showed the slightest sign of being convinced by an opposing point of view. If you don’t want to ‘devote the rest of your life to this’ then revoke your decision, move the article back and move on. Otherwise justify your decision. You say that ‘ultimately, there is an equal usage in the English language’. Exactly what evidence did you use to come to that conclusion? I saw none on this page. Ian Spackman (talk) 00:42, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
Did Ian Spackman really miss the whole point of us following local majority use? It was clearly stated in Harej's response.JdeJ (talk) 07:02, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
See, again, Talk:Communes of the province of Bolzano-Bozen. Local majority use is a stopgap, intended for cases, like Moos in Passeier, which has a genuinely limited discussion in English; since it has two official names, it seemed harmless to go with 99.09% of the inhabitants and call it by the German name. (If English usage demonstrated one or the other, we would still go with it.) If I had realized that this would have been made an occasion for sophistry, I would have supported the Italian faction, as less intransigent and marginally more honest. That harej did not realize that he was being gulled is unfortunate. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 16:52, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
As Pmanderson is repeatedly using terms like "gulled", "marginally more honest", "nationalist faction" etc. , I have to ask him whether he thinks it is at all possible to disagree with him and be honest? I have no problem whatsoever with the fact that Pmanderson and I do not share the same view, but I find his constant complaints about the motives of everybody who doesn't share his view to be strange. Since this issue seems to be so personal for him, perhaps he should let it rest for a few days? As for the actual question, the discussion has made it very clear that both Merano and Meran are used in English, that is why those of us in support of Meran think that local majority use should apply, as is stated in WP:PLACE. If Pmanderson wants to disagree with this, I welcome him to do so. Perhaps he can find a way to challenge our views without insulting the motives of those who supported the move and the intelligence of the administrator who took the decision?JdeJ (talk) 17:03, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
It is certainly possible to disagree with me and remain honest - Wikipedia is far more pleasant when everybody concerned has done so - indeed, honest argument has often convinced me. However, inventing guidance that does not exist, and citing a column of books that are using an archaism because they are about (and often written in) the nineteenth century, are not honesty, and should not be treated as such. Harej's inexperience is equally clear; he forgot to move this talk-page with the article.
It is characteristic of Wikipedia's warriors for causes: "When the facts and the guidance are against you, charge incivility". JdeJ has already tried this, most recently at ANI. Nobody believed him there either. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 17:24, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
Why do you have to lie so often, Pmanderson? You constantly try to belittle your opponents by claiming that "nobody" believes them. You did this yesterday, and it was not true in that case, and now you do it again. As anyone can see for themselves, some who commented on ANI did not agree that you were uncivil but others did, so when you say "nobody believed him there either", you once again reveal your dishonesty and your readiness to lie to try to strengthen your arguments. As for the record, I very seldom resort to reporting people for violations, for the simple reason that most people are civil and honest even when they don't agree. In the current debate, I disagree with Ian Spackman but I have no reason to complain about him.JdeJ (talk) 17:56, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
Projection. I am grateful to the people at ANI for so almost unanimously saying that I may be assertive, but I have never "employed deception" or argued in bad faith; whereas, as they do point out, JdeJ's complaints misquote this page at some length. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 18:08, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
I quote from the discussion at ANI "Reviewing the evidence I think Jdej is correct in his assesment of incivil and disruptive behaviour frm Pmanderson." It should be enough to show how truthful Pmanderson is when he claims he received unanimous support.JdeJ (talk) 18:17, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
Struck. I did miss that isolated sentence; Maunus' general point that this charge of incivility should have nothing to do with what Merano is called is of course true. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 18:22, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
Very true, the name of the article is one issue and your behaviour is another. And if you should have missed Maunus' evaluation as well, let me remind you "Pmanderson should have accepted that or followed the proper venue for rediscussing the topic not by singlehandedly impose his view on the article. This is editwarring.". And I fully acknowledge that some users supported your behaviour, I only cite these as you said that "nobody" belived me. Having said that, I recognise that you are no longer edit warring and although I do not at present share your views, I fully respect your effort to change the name back to Merano by using the talk page.JdeJ (talk) 18:30, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
The further quote by Maunus ignores that my effort was to indicate that this text, and this name, are disputed, as of course they are. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 18:46, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
Quite true. I guess, then, that you would be just as willing to add a tag that the name is disputed even if the page would be moved back to Merano?JdeJ (talk) 18:58, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
Provided it was still significantly disputed after the parties engaged in intellectual fraud were banned. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 19:06, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
Do you consider anyone involved in the discussion to be engaged in intellectual fraud? Isn't this just another example of you saying that all those who disagree with you are dishonest? If you think anyone here is trying to use intellectual fraud and should be banned for it, I suggest that you report that user. If not, I suggest that you remove such insulting insinuations.JdeJ (talk) 19:22, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
Yes, I think Noclador did not look at the list of books he has cited (although he provides links to the pages cited) and that he should be banned for fraud. An admin should be looking at this page in less than a week; that will be soon enough. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 19:26, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
It would be dishonest of me to deny that you have a point here. I don't doubt Noclador's good intentions, but the result is not satisfying. I have looked at some of the books in his list myself and many of them should not be in the list.JdeJ (talk) 19:59, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

Disruptive revert warring

If the revert war on the text of this article continues, as here, I will tag appropriately. There was no consensus for this move, and the article text should not follow. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 21:43, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

a) the move was done in accordance with wiki protocol
b) there was 0 "nationalist renaming" as you claim - the order of Italian/German was reversed and the use of the cities name in the article brought into accordance with the articles name
c) a neutrality tag for that is widely overblown!
d) to speak of "revert war" after you were had reverted two editors that brought the article in line with all 115 other articles about locations in this province and then got revert yourself, smacks of an attempt to intimidate other editors.
please refrain from any further edits. if the article would be moved backed to Merano, then we would reverse the order again; but as the article is now under Meran don't edit - please discuss instead. --noclador (talk) 21:59, 5 July 2009 (UTC)
You have made four exact reverts, two of them to suppress the fact that the use of Meran, like the validity of the move request, is under dispute. You may explain this elsewhere. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:08, 5 July 2009 (UTC)
The move was ok, PMAnderson. The order follows the article title, this is established practice in all 116 municipality articles relating to South Tyrol, including those where the naming scheme follows Italian and Ladin place names. Gun Powder Ma (talk) 22:24, 5 July 2009 (UTC)
The move was appalling; there was no consensus for it, and is not now. All consequences from it are disputed. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:28, 5 July 2009 (UTC)
The move was not OK. The general rule for naming geographic entities in Wikipedia is what they are most commonly called in English. If the correct rule agrees with a different rule for all 116 municipalities in South Tyrol other than Merano, this doesn't make the other rule correct. It just means that the other rule is a good approximation for the correct rule in the case of lots of little villages that are rarely mentioned in English. This is not an unusual situation. In all regions with this kind of naming conflict the little villages are typically named in English as they are named locally, while there are all sorts of special situations for the more significant towns and cities. Hans Adler 00:23, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
Sigh, you guys are missing the subject and confusing the topic. Again, the move to rearrange names and links within the article was absolutely ok, as this is established practice in all 116 municipality articles relating to South Tyrol, including those where the naming scheme follows Italian and Ladin place names. This section can be closed. Gun Powder Ma (talk) 00:52, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
You are missing the fact that this revert war was, at least in part, about a hatnote stating that the current name of the article is controversial. Hans Adler 08:38, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

I don't think readers need to have it thrust in their faces that WP editors are in disagreement about the optimum name for the article. However we must avoid allowing the decision about how to name the article (where we can only choose one name, whatever the outcome may be) to cause the first sentence to be written in a way that implies that the name we've chosen has suddenly become the English name on account of that decision. I therefore propose giving equal status to both names in the lead sentence (i.e. not having one in italics and marked as foreign), and dealing with the names issue in a separate section of the article, as is often done when the naming situation is complex. My edit represents a start with that (I would hope that those more knowledgeable will expand on the Names section).--Kotniski (talk) 10:15, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

I think that is a useful and welcome step towards a compromise. Perhaps a similar paragraph could also be employed for similar communities in the province, such as Bolzano and Brixen?JdeJ (talk) 11:11, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
I also found Kotniski’s contribution sensible. Though I’d like to have a date for the Latin ‘Meranus’: I suspect it’s medieval (which many of our readers won’t think of as a possibility), as the only local Roman-era settlement I have come across is Maia/Maja (hence Obermais/Maia Alta). But I may be quite wrong. As to the bolding of both German and Italian forms, yes I agree that should be extended: Passer (river)/Passirio springs to mind. Ian Spackman (talk) 12:44, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
Excellent, we are finally moving forward :)JdeJ (talk) 14:22, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
Well, I agree to that; so does WP:NCGN. The rest of the article should however, use Merano, as English usually does (in speaking of the twenty-first century; if we were to split off a separate article dealing with the time before the First World War, we would use Meran - as we use Byzantium for the 5th century BC, but not for the present city of Istanbul). Septentrionalis PMAnderson
Upon reconsideration, this does not apply to the historical section; Noclador has inadvertently made a reasonable case for (now the name has been explained) using Meran for the city when part of Austria or Tyrol. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 23:53, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

Variation

In 1981, the World Chess Championship match between Anatoly Karpov and Victor Korchnoi was held in Meran. A chess opening, the Meran Variation of the Semi-Slav Defense, was named after the town.
I've reordered the wording of that section to avoid the misleading impression. Does anyone know when or why the chess variation was named the Meran?--Kotniski (talk) 13:39, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
Our article on the Semi-Slav associates the Variation with a Russian who stopped playing after WWI; but I haven't done any real research. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 14:18, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
According to a chess column in the New York Times (Robert Byrne, ‘An Opening Created in 1924 Still Leads to Complex Battles’, New York Times , 29 January 2006) the Meran Variation of the Slav Defense was first used by Akiba Rubinstein against Ernst Grünfeld in the Meran Tournament of 1924. According to the unsourced it:Difesa di Merano, the variation was first used in Ostend in 1906 but became popular after Rubinstein managed to defeat Grünfeld in that 1924 game. (Grünfeld went on to win the tournament, however, according to en:Grünfeld and one of its sources). Anyway it clearly has nothing to do with the Anatoly Karpov-Victor Korchnoi match. Ian Spackman (talk) 19:58, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
Nice one - I think that source deserves mention in the article (I've just added it to here and to Semi-Slav Defense).--Kotniski (talk) 10:40, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

Where do we go from here?

Would it perhaps be a good idea for PManderson and myself to take a break from this page? Both of us have made our views very clear in far too many posts and I do not think that our continuous argument will convince anyone to support either him or me. It is obvious to everybody where we stand, we have both explained why we hold the views we hold and we have both expressed our opinions in the latest discussion about a possible move. Looking at this very long discussion, I am not sure either one of us is doing the good of the article any service by continuing to argue for what we have already said, even though I am sure Pmanderson's convictions and beliefs are as genuine as mine. I suggest that both us step back for a few days and let other users express their views without those views drowning in the sheer volume of text that Pmanderson and myself have been filling this discussion with.JdeJ (talk) 19:11, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

Quite true. However, I don't think you are the user to do it. I am sure Ian Spackman, who shares your views, is fully capable of going through Noclador's list.JdeJ (talk) 19:26, 6 July 2009 (UTC)


Merano would be more proper

Having spent the last hour looking into a wide number of sources, I can no longer uphold my previous view. Although Meran is used in English, as I had argued. Merano is so much more common than Meran in contemporary English usage that I cannot but agree that Merano should be considered established English usage. Having spent so much time on this discussion page, it is an enormous and extremely humbling embarassment for me that I did not perform this thorough check long ago. It would have spared me and other users a lot of time and I have no doubt in calling this the biggest embarassment during me years at Wikipedia. Remaining in denial, however, would be worse than embarassment, it would be dishonest. I don't call any of those who support Meran dishonest, their motives are no doubt good, but mine would not be as I cannot deny that Merano is the established form. My personal view is that we should always follow local usage and that Meran should be the name of the article for that reason. That is just a personal view, though, and I fully recognise that it is not in line with Wikipedia policies. These policies are what we follow, not personal views, and I thereby change my voice to support a move to Merano. I hope those who share my previous support of Meran will understand my reasoning.JdeJ (talk) 20:13, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

Moved back to Merano

Uninvolved editor here. I have moved this article back to Merano, where it was before the original move request. The fact that the move was disputed as heavily as it was indicates that there wasn't a clear consensus to move. Furthermore, the post-move discussion is leaning more and more towards the original name, especially now that JdeJ above has changed his view. This 200 kilobyte talk page consists almost solely of debate whether the town should be called Meran or Merano. Please try not to start another move proposal right after this one closes. Making people repeat the same arguments over and over again serves only to annoy them. However, if you feel my moving the page back was a mistake, you're welcome to let me know on my talk page. Thanks, Jafeluv (talk) 12:26, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

Very good - I for one heartily endorse all of that.--Kotniski (talk) 12:57, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

Languages in the infobox

The decision to move the article back to Merano is one I support. I believe the discussions over the past week have made it clear that both languages are used in English, but that Merano is significantly more common. It logically follows that we also use "Merano" in the text rather than "Meran". However, the German name, "Stadtgemeinde Meran", should still appear before the Italian "Comune di Merano" in the infobox. This name in the infobox has nothing to do with English usage: the infobox for Rome uses Roma, the infobox for Florence uses Firenze, the infobox for Munich uses München and so on. So in this instance, we follow local use, but for the title of the article and for the text of the same article, Merano should be used. I hope this is uncontroversial enough.JdeJ (talk) 13:41, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

Seems reasonable. Jafeluv (talk) 13:55, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
Yep, seems logical.--Kotniski (talk) 14:06, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
Actually both languages are used locally, and the town government goes out of its way to use both officially; but this is a harmless reminder (and, in any case, in alphabetical order). Septentrionalis PMAnderson 14:40, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
Since the name Merano has been chosen, Italian should appear first in the infobox - for reasons of consistency with the other 115 articles on municipalities. Gun Powder Ma (talk) 08:32, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
I disagree. There is no rule or principle of the language of the title appearing first, it's just that the local majority language is also the one we use in English for all the other 115 municipalities. If we look beyond just this province, the language(s) in the infobox should tell the reader what the local name(s) is/are, not what the place is called in English. See Rome.JdeJ (talk) 08:36, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
I disagree with your disagreement. There needs to be consistency so that we all spare us endless, superfluous discussion. There is only one way to be fair, to do it the same way in all municipality articles. This is admittedly no rule, just as much as your proposal is not one, either, but this is the established inofffial standard and the most important thing is it worked so far. I know emotions are still running high here, but I fail to see why it should be in Meran/Merano any different than in other articles. Gun Powder Ma (talk) 08:42, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
Two things. 1. You still look only at Alto Adige. This has nothing to do with that province, it is a more general principle connected with infoboxes all around the world. 2. Even if you disagree with that, please don't revert. The consensus in this discussion is against you. If you want to avoid the "emotions running high war", please don't start edit warring.JdeJ (talk) 08:53, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
Yes, it ought to hardly matter, but if a need for consistency bothers you, putting the German name first is consistent with the other municipalities, in that the majority language name comes first (which seems to me a slightly more logical rule than putting the more Anglophone-familiar name first, since these official names are decidedly foreign anyway). --Kotniski (talk) 10:36, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

Some thoughts

- Although it doesn't seem to be Wikipedia's policy, I can't see the benefit in limiting this naming discussion to one single city/town. All of South Tyrol should present itself to the world the same way.
- As far as I know (I strongly encourage anyone to correct me if he/she knows better) the german South Tyrolean place and field names are not 100% official.
- This discussion is so endless not because of the colourful history of hundreds or thousands of years ago, but due to the friction energy generated by the coexistence of two ethnic groups (german and italian). --Townsman77 (talk) 22:04, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

What exactly is it you're proposing? Changing all the article titles to the Italian names? Since this one already has the Italian name, it's probably not the place to make such a proposal (you could try WP:NCGN, which is where the current convention is recorded).--Kotniski (talk) 06:27, 27 July 2009 (UTC)
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