Talk:Norman Josiffe

Hon

On what basis could he be called "the Hon".--Jack Upland (talk) 20:50, 5 June 2018 (UTC)

None - he was pretending to be the son of an earl. Deb (talk) 20:54, 5 June 2018 (UTC)

I imagine solely on the basis that he thought it sounded rather nice. "The Hon Norman Van de Brecht de Vater" would make a suitably ridiculous Wikipedia User name, don't you think? Martinevans123 (talk) 20:55, 5 June 2018 (UTC)

Or even an article title! It would fit in awfully well with the COMMONNAME policy... Deb (talk) 21:12, 5 June 2018 (UTC)

Thanks for the information. In that case, I think the first line is misleading.--Jack Upland (talk) 08:01, 6 June 2018 (UTC)

I've amended the wording - does that help make it clearer that it's a false name? Deb (talk) 08:19, 6 June 2018 (UTC)

I think it's odd that this isn't mentioned in the body of the article...--Jack Upland (talk) 08:24, 6 June 2018 (UTC)

I agree it is odd. The lead shouldn't have anything unique. He used a lot of names (as that source shows), so why give prominence to this one? Martinevans123 (talk) 09:37, 6 June 2018 (UTC)

I only know of the three names. But we can easily include it in the body of the article as well. Deb (talk) 11:24, 6 June 2018 (UTC)

Actually, it is already there and is explained, with a reference! Deb (talk) 11:28, 6 June 2018 (UTC)

And just in case you misread the ref, it was his employer who called himself "The Hon Norman Van de Brecht de Vater", not Josiffe. Deb (talk) 11:30, 6 June 2018 (UTC)

Many thanks for the clarification, Deb. Martinevans123 (talk) 12:42, 6 June 2018 (UTC)

Did you know ... Norman van de Vater represented the Republic of Ireland in the equestrian eventing team at the 1976 Olympic Games in Montreal,[1] and also won a team bronze at the 1977 European Eventing Championships? 213.205.240.209 (talk) 14:44, 6 June 2018 (UTC)

Any relation to Brecht? Seems too much of a coincidence. Or was this yet another pseudonym? Martinevans123 (talk) 14:55, 6 June 2018 (UTC)

Possibly him, or a relation? I understand that "Brecht" married Helen Tompkinson in 1961, had a son, and moved to Ireland at some point in the late 1960s. The Olympic "Norman" is said to have been born in 1946 and moved to Ireland in the 1960s too: that is an amazing coincidence, but if 1946 is right, Olympic "Norman" can't be "Brecht"; too young. However, the books by Barrie Penrose and John Preston say they are the same person. There must be an archive photo or some TV footage somewhere. 213.205.240.209 (talk) 16:57, 6 June 2018 (UTC)

This source says he was the second youngest of six children and was "based in Bledington near Chipping Norton" - that's only a couple of miles from Kingham. So perhaps they were brothers. But "Brecht" doesn't sound much of a Welsh coal-mining name to me! Martinevans123 (talk) 17:18, 6 June 2018 (UTC)

That is an amazing find. So, if 1930 is the correct birthdate, not 1946, I am confident they are the same person.

As for the "Hon" and "Brecht", the Thorpe books say he was born "Norman Vivian Vater" in South Wales, the son of a coalminer, and assumed an increasingly ornate name ending with "the Honourable Normand Vivian Dudley Van de Brecht de Vater". 213.205.240.209 (talk) 17:38, 6 June 2018 (UTC)

Yes, seems that's him then. I wonder did our Norman go back to him, or near him, in Ireland? Martinevans123 (talk) 17:45, 6 June 2018 (UTC)

Dare I say it? For 1977 results we probably need one of those things called a book... Deb (talk) 18:26, 6 June 2018 (UTC)

Yes, you dare. Of course, all this may not lead anywhere in terms of improving this article. But you never know. Martinevans123 (talk) 18:59, 6 June 2018 (UTC)

To go back to the original point, "Hon" is only mentioned in the opening sentence and is not explained in the body of the text.--Jack Upland (talk) 20:17, 6 June 2018 (UTC)

Yes, I think it should be moved out of the lead and put in the chronology. It's hardly one of the most important facts about him. Martinevans123 (talk) 16:01, 9 June 2018 (UTC)

Terry-Thomas - brother-in-law? Wife's sister's brother-in-law?

Can we pin down the relationship (if any) between the actor Terry-Thomas and Norman Josiffe (aka Scott)? There appears to be some disagreement between the sources.

They are said in some sources to be brothers-in-law, eg [2] I think the wives at the time were Belinda Cunningham and Susan Myers. I doubt they were sisters: were they half-sisters?

Belinda Cunningham (born 1941) was the daughter of Lieutenant Colonel Geoffrey Percy Cunningham, Royal Artillery, from Lincolnshire (Sandhurst in 1927; promoted to Lt Col in 1950). I've found one source naming her mother as Nell Elizabeth (née Thompson).

Now, Susan Myers was daughter of Philip Edmund Leo Augustine Myers and Nell Elizabeth Myers. It seems Nell was Australian. Philip served for a short time in the RAF in the 1930s, and was a captain in the Gordon Highlanders until 1949. They lived at Partney Grange, Spilsby, Lincolnshire. (Partney is nearby too.) [3] She died in 2010.

So there is clearly a potential Lincolnshire link, and Nell Elizabeth Thompson/Cunningham/Myers appears twice.

The 1996 Telegraph source says that Terry-Thomas was the brother-in-law of Norman's wife's sister. So does that mean that Susan's sister was married to the brother of Terry-Thomas? I suppose the precise relationship depends on how flexibly you define a brother-in-law. 213.205.240.209 (talk) 12:02, 6 June 2018 (UTC)

Yes, that was the only way I could make sense of it and that is what the reference suggests (although I believe the TV series implied that her sister was married to Terry-Thomas, which appears to be incorrect). I looked for further sources but couldn't find any. You're thinking Susan and Belinda could have been half-sisters? That would make sense, and in fact that was my first thought but I was not sharp enough to find the evidence. Deb (talk) 12:50, 6 June 2018 (UTC)

Yes, I have a suspicion that they are in fact both daughters of the same woman, Nell Elizabeth, and so half-sisters. Sources on the men are thin - they were officers in the military, so there are references in the London Gazette - but for their wives, almost non-existent. Something more must be known about Nell, but I've not found it. The potential link is interesting, but not essenital to the story of either Norman or Terry-Thomas. 213.205.240.209 (talk) 14:16, 6 June 2018 (UTC)

Could be relevant to Norman, because he had pretensions and might have been attracted to her by the showbiz connection, don't you think? Deb (talk) 14:22, 6 June 2018 (UTC)

I suspect some might consider this entire section to be too OR-ish for a BLP, but my comments are all based on sources that are out there. There may be something in what you say, but I do not intend to start speculating about the possible motivations of a living person without some sources to back that up. 213.205.240.209 (talk) 14:31, 6 June 2018 (UTC)

You may be right, but what do we think about the fact that a referenced statement has been removed on the grounds that "they can't have been sisters because they have different surnames, therefore she can't have been Terry-Thomas's sister-in-law"? I would argue that the removal of the sentence is also OR. Deb (talk) 14:59, 6 June 2018 (UTC)

In the absence of a clear answer, the correct approach, of course, is to report what the different sources say ("TT is said by some sources to have been NJ's brother-in-law,[1] but other sources say TT was the brother-in-law of NJ's wife's sister[2]") . 213.205.240.209 (talk) 16:57, 6 June 2018 (UTC)

The sources for Terry-Thomas being an in-law of Norman Scott are unsatisfactory. It is reported here that the Telegraph says T-T was the brother-in-law of Scott’s sister-in-law. Other sources, such as John Preston’s book ‘A Very English Scandal’ (2016) clearly state that Scott’s wife Sue and TT-T’s wife Belinda were sisters. These are incompatible accounts.

To dispose of the Telegraph’s version, T-T’s brothers married as follows: Jack in 1933 to Sylvie Camile Baker; Richard also in 1933 to Celestine V. Baker (presumably Sylvie’s sister) and William first to Emily Manning in 1941, and second to Margaret Tarr in 1948.

Could any of these women have been Sue Myers’ sister? Sue was born as Angela M. Myers, mother's maiden surname O'Callaghan, in Saint Albans, in 1945. The only matching marriage for her parents is of Henry J. Myers & Myra O'Callaghan (aka Mary A. Callaghan) in Battersea, in 1939. They had at least one other daughter Julia L. Myers in 1952, possibly another daughter Elizabeth F. Myers in 1961. So for the telegraph’s version to be correct, Julia or Elizabeth would have had to be married under the name of Sylvie, Celestine, Emily or Margaret, at least 20 years before they were born. This reveals one of the patent unlikelihood’s of the story, T-T’s father-in-law was against the marriage to his daughter, because T-T was so much older, virtually a whole generation, so it makes it unlikely that another of the Stevens brothers (they were all older that T-T) also married a girl young enough to be his daughter.

Could Sue and Belinda have been half-sisters? Sue’s parents were most likely Henry J. Myers & Myra O'Callaghan; Belinda’s seem to have been Geoffrey Percy Cunningham and Nell Elizabeth Thompson. The other information here, that Sue’s mother may also have been called Nell Elizabeth doesn’t come with any supporting evidence. A further suggestion that Sue’s father was Philip Edmund Leo Augustine Myers, seems to originate on a family tree on Ancestry, but is incorrect, Philip Meyers married Elizabeth Grant, and in 1945 instead of a daughter Sue, or Angela, they had a son George.

There is a possibility that there is some as yet undiscovered link between the two families, but for now, the notion that T-T, born 1911 and Norman Scott, born 1940, were more-or-less brothers-in-law, is extremely unlikely, and supported only by rather nebulous claims. The story does have some traction, appearing in Graham McCann’s 2008 biography of Terry –Thomas ‘Bounder’ (here Susan and Belinda are sisters) where it is noted that during the 1979 trial of Jeremy Thorpe ‘Scott’s connection with his famous former brother-in-law was largely overlooked’.

There are no records of Sue Myers having a sister Belinda, or of Belinda Cunningham having a sister Sue. Despite the obvious attraction of the idea, the only reasonable conclusion to draw is that this is a myth, which was fertilised by the many bizarre elements of the Thorpe trial. As for the Wikipedia article, it shouldn’t contain any original research, but nor should it include obviously dubious information. The statement that Sue Myers was T-T’s brother-in-law, if left in, would simply give further credence to the myth. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Saint Michael 2010 (talk • contribs) 12:10, 7 June 2018 (UTC)

This is all probably correct, but it's still original research. We have a reliable reference that says they were brothers-in-law and nothing that says they weren't. It's a problem. Deb (talk) 15:25, 9 June 2018 (UTC)

How Did Norman Josiffe Earn His Living?

The article mentions that Josiffe was working in a stable when he met Northam. Years later he met a wealthy widow during a period when he was doing "casual work." No other mention is made of definite employment. Yet Josiffe is now something like seventy eight years old, and during this long life he would have needed to earn money for essentials. What did he do? What was his job, career, or profession? Younggoldchip (talk) 20:46, 20 July 2018 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure, from what I've read in the press, that he certainly never had anything close to a "career, or profession", but rather a series of low-paid jobs. Casual work could certainly include being a stable hand or indeed "modelling" work. If you had believed the case for the defence back in 1978, Josiffe was principally "a worthless sponging scrounger". In the UK, certainly since 1948, the Welfare State has helped ensure that no-one has to earn "money for essentials", especially not if one finds well-to-do political friends. Martinevans123 (talk) 20:56, 20 July 2018 (UTC)

It's not really our business how he earned a living. Maybe he did have some ability at working with horses and other animals, and for some of his life obtained employment that way. PatGallacher (talk) 17:56, 18 November 2018 (UTC)

If we're writing an article about him, it is our business to know. It is odd that the lead describes him as a "former stable hand".--Jack Upland (talk) 07:28, 19 November 2018 (UTC)

Title

As he is definitely better known as Norman Scott surely this article should be moved there? PatGallacher (talk) 15:45, 18 November 2018 (UTC)

It's a disambiguation page, otherwise I would have put it there. Deb (talk) 16:13, 18 November 2018 (UTC)

I'm not sure that justifies abandoning the common name, although I am not sure what would be a suitable qualifier. PatGallacher (talk) 17:53, 18 November 2018 (UTC)

I tend to agree. Martinevans123 (talk) 17:57, 18 November 2018 (UTC)

Yes, but who do you tend to agree with? PatGallacher (talk) 17:58, 18 November 2018 (UTC)

Yourself. That's why I indented under you? I see that he is already listed at the DAB page Norman Scott, which has four others. Would "Norman Scott (Thorpe affair)" be a possibility? Martinevans123 (talk) 18:00, 18 November 2018 (UTC)

I suggest "Norman Scott (stable hand)", it seems the least problematic way of referring to him. PatGallacher (talk) 18:02, 18 November 2018 (UTC)

No strong objection. But he certainly wasn't notable for being a stable hand, was he. Martinevans123 (talk) 18:11, 18 November 2018 (UTC)

Requested move 18 November 2018

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: no consensus to move the page to the proposed title at this time, per the discussion below. Dekimasuよ! 07:27, 5 December 2018 (UTC)

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Norman Josiffe → Norman Scott (Thorpe affair) – There is no doubt that this person is considerably better known as Norman Scott. It has been suggested that it could be awkward to move him since Norman Scott is a dab page. However, I suggest that the move should be made providing we can find a suitable disambiguator, this could be the best one. PatGallacher (talk) 18:18, 18 November 2018 (UTC)--Relisting. B dash (talk) 13:58, 1 December 2018 (UTC)

Support. I guess "Norman Scott (Rinka owner)" wouldn't really wash. Martinevans123 (talk) 18:20, 18 November 2018 (UTC)

Oppose. Sorry, but I don't see how this is a better solution; if there was a decent option involving brackets, I believe I would have thought of it sooner. If you wanted to get to the article, you would type in "Norman Scott" and would go to the disambiguation page, where you would find the Norman Scott you wanted. I don't think a longer title would help. Deb (talk) 21:57, 18 November 2018 (UTC)

At least he would appear in the search list with that name+descriptor? But are you making the case for just "Norman Scott", as none of the others at the DAB page have that exact name? Martinevans123 (talk) 22:02, 18 November 2018 (UTC)

I'm not making a case for anything really. I was very surprised when I found out there was more than one, and equally surprised that there wasn't already an article about him. Deb (talk) 22:15, 18 November 2018 (UTC)

No worries. Well there is an article about him, of course, this one! It's just that it currently uses his "real name". Martinevans123 (talk) 22:41, 18 November 2018 (UTC)

I meant, when I created it there wasn't. (Obviously.) :-) Deb (talk) 22:50, 18 November 2018 (UTC)

It was obvious to you. And now it's also obvious to me! Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 22:54, 18 November 2018 (UTC)

• Support only notability In ictu oculi (talk) 22:13, 18 November 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose. Yes, he was better known at the time as Norman Scott. However, the name Norman Josiffe is one that has been used in the media and it avoids having to come up with a convoluted disambiguator. -- Necrothesp (talk) 14:43, 28 November 2018 (UTC)

• Are you sure about that? As one single example (the first newspaper ref in the article), this source has 11 Scotts but only 3 Josiffes? Sure, it's been "used in the media", because that was his birth name? But not used as much as Scott, surely? Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 14:55, 28 November 2018 (UTC)

• I agree Norman Scott is more common. I said that. -- Necrothesp (talk) 15:12, 28 November 2018 (UTC)

• Thanks. I guess there comes a point where the balance of usage in the media would tend to preclude names that are used only very infrequently. Of course we still have very many articles such as Shirley Crabtree, Lulu (singer) etc., etc. Martinevans123 (talk) 15:15, 28 November 2018 (UTC)

• Normally, I would agree that the commonest name should be used. However, given the problems of finding a decent disambiguator here and given that his real name is known and used, I think on balance it's best to stick with it. -- Necrothesp (talk) 15:39, 28 November 2018 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Requested move 11 March 2019

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: No consensus for any move. There is consensus against making him the primary topic for Norman Scott, and no consensus that he should be moved from the present name to any particular disambiguator. If someone wants to try again for anotehr version, per Deb's and PatGallacher discussion below, then they can try it although I'm a little sceptical whether any consensus will emerge given this and the above discussion.  — Amakuru (talk) 13:27, 20 March 2019 (UTC)

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• Norman Josiffe → Norman Scott
• Norman Scott → Norman Scott (disambiguation)

– I do not believe the previous discussion was sufficiently thorough to warrant closure, or adhered well to the naming conventions - particularly WP:COMMONNAME. Per the above and the article, media around the time of the Thorpe affair used Scott, as did A Very English Scandal on TV (I'm not familiar with the book, any knowledge on that welcome). I further suggest that he is by far the most notable Norman Scott, and it is justified to place this article as the primary topic for that name (not to mention that this solves the issue of a decent disambiguation descriptor for this Norman Scott). U-Mos (talk) 07:25, 11 March 2019 (UTC)

• Oppose. I would have done this myself, long ago, but it seems obvious to me that Admiral Norman Scott is better known internationally than a minor figure known only for his part in a political scandal that happened in th 1970s.Deb (talk) 08:01, 11 March 2019 (UTC)
• Rename to Norman Scott (something) It's clear the subject is best known as Scott, not as Josiffe, given all the coverage of Rinkagate over the years (and there was a massive resurgence of interest last year due to the dramatisation) but I'm not sure he's the primary subject for the undisambiguated name. However this shouldn't be a reason to keep the article at a plainly confusing title. Timrollpickering (Talk) 13:16, 11 March 2019 (UTC)

• Ooh, I'm sure someone suggested something like that a while back. Martinevans123 (talk) 13:35, 11 March 2019 (UTC)
  • I wonder why they haven't suggested it this time... :-) Deb (talk) 14:24, 11 March 2019 (UTC)

• I think they got such a fright last time, they were probably worried for the safety of their dog. Martinevans123 (talk) 15:00, 11 March 2019 (UTC)

• I'd favour Norman Scott (model) if a disambiguation descriptor is preferred. U-Mos (talk) 17:27, 11 March 2019 (UTC)

• Comment. Norman Scott was known as such in the Thorpe affair, in British media he was never known as Norman Josiffe. To give an alluision, Peter Cook refers to him in what [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kyos-M48B8U YouTube titles the "biased judge sketch" as "Mrs Norma St. John Scott" ("a self-confessed player of the pink oboe"). Perhaps after forty-five years this rather misleading case is not in the worldwide memory, so I think it may be a rather British thing, but certainly the WP:COMMONNAME would be Scott, not Josiffe. 94.21.234.169 (talk) 11:22, 12 March 2019 (UTC)
  • With all due respect, I don't think there is anything new in what you've said. The proposal is to move the article to Norman Scott and to move the disambiguation page. If you agree with this, please say so. If not, please feel free to put an alternative proposal. Deb (talk) 11:46, 12 March 2019 (UTC)

• Support moving Norman Josiffe, preferably to "Norman Scott (Thorpe affair)", although "Norman Scott (model)" is a serious possibility. The previous discussion was brief and confused, and as can happen sometimes some people seemed to be questioning well-established Wikipedia conventions. None of the arguments people used seemed adequate to override WP:COMMONNAME. I recognise that he may not be the primary topic, given the important US admiral of this name. PatGallacher (talk) 19:08, 12 March 2019 (UTC)
  • I agree, the previous discussion was brief, but you are now making this even more confused by bringing up a different proposal from the one under discussion. If you want to make that proposal again, feel free, but at the moment that's not what we are supposed to be discussing. Deb (talk) 19:38, 12 March 2019 (UTC)
    • If you put it that way, I would have to oppose this proposal, although I may re-open the discussion about his name once we get this one out of they way. PatGallacher (talk) 20:50, 12 March 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose per previous discussion. -- Necrothesp (talk) 13:59, 13 March 2019 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

GRO sources

Are entries in the UK General Register Office indexes permitted? I thought they were classed as WP:PRIMARY. Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 10:34, 11 December 2023 (UTC)