Talk:Scrapple

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to navigation Jump to search

Pennsylvania Dutch connection[edit]

Everybody knows that scrapple is associated with the Pennsylvania Dutch. However, Habbersett's website (see External Links) says that it was invented by "Dutch", adding "who sailed from Holland," apparently in emphasis that they were not "Pennsylvania Dutch", which is to say, "actually from Germany" (Deutsch). The Habbersett's article also says it was invented in Chester County, not Lancaster County, which is most associated with the PD. Can anyone point to a reference, and I mean a really authoritative one, that this was not the case? What I'm asking is: is it a sort of urban legend that the Pennsylvania Dutch invented scrapple?--BillFlis 10:32, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

See above (Scrapple vs haggis); terms like "pawn hoss" clearly point at a Rhineland/Westphalian connection; certainly not Holland (i.e. NW Netherlands). Dysmorodrepanis 13:33, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
Sorry, but I don't follow your logic here. Outside PD Country, it's almost universally called "scrapple", not "pawn hoss"; I buy scrapple all the time and I've never seen "pawn hoss" or whatever printed anywhere on the package, even from manufacturers in PD Country. So the PD call it by a German name--that doesn't mean they invented it. Also, the Balkenbrij article actually refers to scrapple as being from New England!--BillFlis 12:38, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
Actually, I very recently bought some scrapple, in Hamburg, PA, that was labeled "pon hass". Also, I have one of the Foxfire books (about Southern Appalachia, in Georgia) that uses a similar term for what is clearly scrapple.--BillFlis (talk) 19:52, 22 December 2008 (UTC)
The reference to Dutch colonist is incorrect, it should read Pennsylvania Dutch. Deutsch, pronounced like Dutch, is the German word for German--24.144.220.63
I know all about the ethnic history, but the true Dutch, from Holland, were in Pennsylvania long before the "Pennsylvania Dutch". Can you find a reference that you would agree is correct and authoritative?--BillFlis (talk) 19:52, 22 December 2008 (UTC)
Generally speaking, were not the "true Dutch" mainly in New York not Pennsylvania? If anything the first Europeans in numbers in the area were the Swedes, in the Philadelphia/Delaware region, supposedly. Historian932 (talk) 15:53, 16 January 2010 (UTC)

The webpage note 11 references is no longer available. Nitpyck (talk) 19:43, 25 February 2012 (UTC)

German or Dutch[edit]

I see my change of May 2009 has been reversed. You wanted a source indicating that scrapple is German. Here is a copy of a text from 1869 on the subject. http://www.archive.org/stream/pennsylvaniadutc00gibbiala/pennsylvaniadutc00gibbiala_djvu.txt Kevinm1984 (talk) 20:09, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

The 181 page book "Pennsylvania Dutch" (published in 1872) that you provided a link to is absolutely fascinating reading.  In my opinion it is required reading for anyone at all interested in a detailed, up close and personal insight and reference to Amish/Mennonite history, and their life in America up until the date the book was published.  On pages 45-46 the author provides us with a brief, ballpark description of the difference between 'scrapple' and 'pawn-haus'.  Panhas is certainly German in origin; the recipe and cooking instructions are in "Praktishes Kochbuch für die Deuteschen in Amerika" (Milwaukee, Wisconsin, 1879), pages 357 and 87 respectively.  However, it's entirely possible that the term "scrabble" is a derivative of the Dutch verb "schrappen", which means to scrape, cut, or chop. When used in the context of butchering, the cutting and scraping in the deboning operation would generate small pieces, or "scrapes"/"scraps", of meat. Keep in mind also that in Dutch 'sch__' is pronounced as 'sk__', as in "school" and "schedule". So "schrappen" would be pronounced as "skrappen", not "shroppen" as it might seemto anyone not familiar with the language.  And it's very clear from your reference that the Mennonites spent a considerable length of time in the relative safety of Holland after they fled Germany (and Switzerland) before Wm. Penn was able to start bringing them to America.  And they also passed through Dutch Delaware on their way to their lands in Lancaster County.  In my opinion, attributing the source of the word "scrapple" to the Pennsylvania Germans is incorrect; they use/used the word, but they didn't invent it.  Besides that, the word certainly isn't unique; the Oxford English Dictionary has a 1354 AD entry referencing the word "scrapple" to 'scraping', and an 1825 AD reference (and subsequent entries) referencing "scrapple" as meaning to rake or scrape.  And for another thing, scrapple-like cooked cereal with meat in a mush combinations were not 'invented' in Germany; that combination is commonly found in foods of many other countries.  Thanks again for your very fine link. K. Kellogg-Smith (talk) 06:58, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

See Also Section[edit]

Unless the food contains at least some of the two main ingredients (cornmeal and pork scraps)it probably shouldn't be included. Nitpyck (talk) 19:08, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

Or at least meat and grain. Boudin is just sausage, isn't it? No grain?
Cajun boudin is a mixture of pork and rice stuffed into sausage casings so it seems appropriate. Flingonberry (talk) 20:13, 20 February 2021 (UTC)

Why is hakarl included on this list? As far as I know it has no connection to scrapple at all. Flingonberry (talk) 20:13, 20 February 2021 (UTC)

Canned Scrapple[edit]

When I was young Scrapple was available in canned form, though I haven't seen it on the shelf in years and can't find any current makers. It tasted OK (for Scrapple) but looked uncomfortably like canned dog food. Saxophobia (talk) 14:21, 3 April 2013 (UTC)

Moving hidden note here[edit]

"the Habbersett's page says "Dutch ... from Holland". Please do not change to "German"... user-added note: the Pennsylvania Dutch were mostly from Germany and Switzerland but also from "the Low Countries" which does include modern Holland. Added-added note: not "Pennsylvania Dutch", they were real Dutch from HOLLAND; see article on New Netherland; the Pennsylvania Dutch came much later; added-added-added note: the Habbersett link is no longer there; I believe it was wrong to refer to the "Dutch ... from Holland," as scrapple has always been a German "Pennsylvania Deutsch" recipe and the Germans who settled in PA were mostly from the southwest of Germany and/or Switzerland"

Why are we using the Habbersett page as a source in any case? Not only does it not work, it doesn't meet our criteria at WP:RS. We should be using sources such as [1] (The Oxford Companion to American Food and Drink), [2] Dougweller (talk) 21:44, 23 March 2014 (UTC)

A "meat-and-grain sausage" or "meat-and-grain mush"?[edit]

I'm wondering if the lede needs to be clearer, and if saying Scrapple is a type of meat-and-grain sausage or meat-and-grain mush would be more clear than describing it simply as a mush? It's like goetta and haggis -- unique in that they're all ground- or scrap-meat and grain combinations that are deliberate dish-of-poverty substitutes for sausage. I think this should be maybe the first step in describing it to people who don't know what it is? valereee (talk) 10:44, 15 July 2015 (UTC)

Name origin[edit]

I had long assumed that the name was based on it being composed largely of pork scraps. However, this New York Times article seems to say differently: "WHEN the future Edward VII, then the Prince of Wales, visited this staid old city in 1860, he had a little trouble getting his bearings. During his stay, he reported later, 'I met a very large and interesting family named Scrapple, and I discovered a rather delicious native food that they call biddle.'"

While I shudder at anything calling scrapple "delicious", the source is otherwise reliable and adds "biddle" to the list of alternate names and implies that the name came from the family. However, the story is reminiscent of a guy I met, named "_______ Broccoli", who claimed that his great grandfather was the first person to sell broccoli in his town and the locals began calling it broccoli based on his name. (Broccolo means "cabbage flower", a rather unlikely coincidence.)

Thoughts, comments, sources, hints and allegations are welcome. - SummerPhDv2.0 14:41, 28 March 2016 (UTC)

I resemble your attack on scrapple! It is indeed delicious, especially when served with grape jelly or maple syrup. Seriously. And I'm usually not fond of this sort of thing. Maybe you've had bad scrapple. Back to biddle though. It's discussed in this university press book which calls it the hoariest of Philadelphia jokes. The point is that it is "Biddle" that is the family name, not scrapple. See also[3] which confirms this. And here is a 1907 memoir by Ellen Biddle[4] where she tells the cook how to make scrapple.[5] Doug Weller talk 15:04, 28 March 2016 (UTC)
Looking a bit more closely at the source I cited, it does clarify this in the next paragraph, albeit in high-falutin' New York City talk that a simple Philadelphian, such as myself, can scarcely be expected to understand on a Monday morning. (That said: Butcher a hog. Sell what you can to city folk. Grind the rest with some corn, feed it to your family and hope for higher pork prices next week. No one grinds bacon and pork loin with corn to hide what it is.) - SummerPhDv2.0 15:23, 28 March 2016 (UTC)
I've had it twice here. Lucky you being able to go to the Reading Terminal Market regularly. Doug Weller talk 15:33, 28 March 2016 (UTC)
I've had it throughout the area. Traveling the area and having scrapple is a lot like traveling through Mexico and having dysentery, but not as pleasant.
I've thought of expanding this article a bit with some of the closely related "foods": pan pudding, liver sausage, blood sausage and such, but I'm not really seeing many reliable sources delving into the waste-not-want-not foods of the region. I think we've got a big intersection between those and starvation foods. Basically because some of these foods really must have had some motivation other than flavor behind their popularity. - SummerPhDv2.0 16:26, 28 March 2016 (UTC)

hog's head?[edit]

If the entire head is used, then can one contract CJD from eating it? 66.82.144.144 (talk) 10:27, 7 September 2016 (UTC)

Use of DeDikkeVanDam:van aardappel tot zwezerik[edit]

User:Heteren added this text:"The dish is very similar to the Dutch dish Balkenbrij and the German dish Panhas, from where the Pennsylvania Dutch word 'Pannhaas' (literally meaning 'pan hare') is derived. 'Panhas' most likely is derived from 'pfann' (pan) and Harst, meaning 'fried meat'. Local variations have pigs blood added as thickener, turning the dish more towards black pudding<ref>'De Dikke Van Dam, Nijgh & Ditmar, Amsterdam 2006, ISBN 90 388 1435 6, Pages 67 - 68</ref>." (Note the author is Johannes van Dam}.

I'm pretty sure that this source doesn't discuss scrapple. I've asked Heteren for a quote from it to show it does. Meanwhile, see this source[6] which is based on the same book and discusses balkenbrij, saying it is also known as karboet, tuet or pannas and that "It is similar to American scrapple and closely related to German panhas (or pannas) and möppkenbrot." So this agrees with Heteren but although I very much love the website I'm not convinced it's a reliable source by our criteria.

So perhaps we can find a better source asserting this similarity. Meanwhile I'd still like Heteren's comments about the source added. @SummerPhDv2.0: what do you think? Doug Weller talk 10:22, 22 January 2019 (UTC)

I use Spruce Eats often and consider it a trusted recipe source, but I'm not sure it rises to the level of 'reliable source.' Scrapple may very well have much in common with balkenbrij, but it's also got a lot in common with multiple other similar European mush-sausages and other similar US mush-sausages that were developed independently such as livermush and goetta. Goetta was almost certainly based on a similar German dish. valereee (talk) 13:44, 22 January 2019 (UTC)

De Dikke Van Dam[edit]

Johannes van Dam was the foremost food writer in the Netherlands until his death. He further was a much feared critic of restaurants. He has collected the largest know library of Dutch cook books. In 2005 he publish the Dikke van Dam, which is seen a 'the definitive' cook book on Dutch cuisine. The subject of Balkenbrij is discussed on Page 67 and 68 of the sixth edition, and scrapple is mentioned as simply being balkenbrij with the wheat is replaced by corn flour. I do not see how a source can be more reliable than this. Also I think this is a useless discussion, as balkenbrij is about 800 years old, eaten in just about the entire Europe, and scrapple is exactly the same but only with corn flower. Heteren (talk) 10:43, 22 January 2019 (UTC)

Heteren can you give us the exact quote that includes Scrapple? I'm willing to accept this source, although I can show you others that assert Scrapple likely traces back to Germany, but we'd need to present both possible places of origin if there are reliable sources that disagree. I'd like to know exactly what he was saying. valereee (talk) 13:47, 22 January 2019 (UTC)
Yes, quotes from the source would be useful in terms of adding the material.
As there are other reliable sources making a different claim, this would be an addition to the material that is currently there, not a replacement.
Heteren: Please see WP:EW and the warning on your talk page. You are in danger of being blocked from editing. (A helpful rule of thumb is the bold - revert - discuss cycle: when you boldly make a change and it is reverted, discuss the issue before continuing. - SummerPhDv2.0 15:03, 22 January 2019 (UTC)

Origin of Balkenbrij/panhas/scrapple[edit]

The source Johannes van Dam, and basically any other source, states that scrapple is SIMILAR to the Dutch Balkenbrij and SIMILAR to the German panhas and SIMILAR to (even though a bit more distant) the Scottish/British haggis and black pudding. The origins of scrapple lie is the eastern boarder region of The Netherlands (the old Saxony, which is now Groningen, Drenthe, Gelderland, Limburg) and the western boarder of Germany, which is also the old Saxony and now Nordrhein-Westfahlen, Lower-Saxony and Bremen. But, Sweden, Denmark and Finland know versions of it as well, This rural area is for over 5000 years farming area where crops are harvested and animals where being kept. When animals are slaughtered before the winter all bits where used. The Dutch 'Balkenbrij' (balk = stomach, brij = porridge) is originally an animal's stomach filled with offal and then cooked, but it can also be a pigs head being cooked in water. The offal or pigs head is removed from the broth and made into products liverwurst and 'zure zult' or 'hoofdkaas', which translates to 'head cheese' or 'brawn', and with vinegar added 'souse'. The remaining broth is thickened with wheat and poured into a bowl. Slices of this are than fried in a pan and eaten with bread. The more rich a farmer was the more meat was left in the balkenbrij/panhas. The northern part of the Dutch/German boarder added raisins or plum (white balkenbrij/panhas), the southern region added blood (dark balkenbrij/panhas). In the end, all these products from different countries are the same: a meat jelly, with more or less meat left in, that is either eaten straight (brawn), or fried. Scrapple is exactly the same as balkenbrij/panhas, but mostly with the wheat replaced by corn. This makes scrapple a bit less firm when fried. Dutch sources for this are the aforementioned 'Dikke van Dam', 'Eten door de eeuwen' by renowned author Wina Born (1989, ISBN 9789024645473), 'Het ultieme recept' by Torgny Lindgren (2005, ISBN 90-234-1770-4). Google Balkenbrij or panhas and you get 100's of links. Ps Balkenbrij is hardly eaten anymore in the Netherlands, and also not available anymore from Dutch butchers. There is one restaurant in Amsterdam 'Rijssel' that serves it during winter season, and they have uploaded clip on how to make it on Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ltYq9CFC1LQ . Heteren (talk) 09:19, 23 January 2019 (UTC)

Heteren I think what you are trying to argue is that Balkenbrij is the forerunner to all such similar dishes? valereee (talk) 15:17, 24 January 2019 (UTC)

Country of origin[edit]

Yes, panhas is originally European.

This article, however, is about scrapple, which is a variety of panhas originating in the United States. The sources cited make this clear. If you disagree, I invite you to consider where Europeans would have gotten cornmeal. No cornmeal, no scrapple. - SummerPhDv2.0 17:30, 17 June 2019 (UTC)

"everything but the oink"[edit]

"everything but the oink" is mentioned two times in the Wiki page. Maybe someone should decide which instance to remove and keep only one.

My grandpa used to say they used every part of the pig - "everything but the squeal" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 44mm16cm (talkcontribs) 06:20, 23 July 2020 (UTC)

I say it should stay under Composition but not the intro. I grew up in southern Delaware but never heard the phrase. Penguinmlle (talk) 16:48, 19 September 2020 (UTC)