Talk:Shudao

China Mid‑importance

	China portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject China, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of China related articles on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.ChinaWikipedia:WikiProject ChinaTemplate:WikiProject ChinaChina-related articles
Mid	This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.

History Mid‑importance

	History portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject History, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of the subject of History on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.HistoryWikipedia:WikiProject HistoryTemplate:WikiProject Historyhistory articles
Mid	This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.

On 6 December 2017, it was proposed that this article be moved from Shudao to Road to Shu. The result of the discussion was not moved.

Changes to Shu Roads

I have made changes to the Shu Road site and will post discussion on my user area tonight or tomorrow. At this point almost all are edits, fixing misprints and English expression.

Discussion on other possible additions or changes is welcome.

Jdw518 (talk) 01:25, 28 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion of Changes

I have put these discussions here as I think it is the right place! I believe the original article was the right level of detail and a very good article. These suggestions are all aimed to make it better and build on that very good base. The majority of changes have been edits, misprints, typos, English expression etc. However, the following areas of change may need more explanation:

1. Network of roads

The Shu Roads are not just the 7-10 roads commonly identified. It is a nework of roads stetching into Hubei and (more importantly) Gansu as well as Shaanxi and Sichuan. I have introduced this idea and identified the roads listed as simply commonly identified major roads.

o.k.--Ulamm (talk)

2. Li Zhiqin reference

Prof. Li Zhiqin's book is probably the best authority on Shu Roads in Chinese language until the new book series is finished in the future. It is in Chinese so maybe some western references are needed still.

It is good to cite optimal soureces and generally accessible sources.--Ulamm (talk) 14:20, 28 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

3. Interpretations of names

It is always difficult and risky to interpret Chinese names in imaginative English! Most Chinese, when asked what a name means simply say "just a name". But it is useful for western people and I like the attempts. I have suggested alternatives. They do not have to be accepted.

I consider it amazing that Chinese ideograms don't hide the original pictures as much as European languages do. What you mention about Chinese reactions on questions about original meanings reminds me to a constitutive source of Chinese wisdom. Under the conditions of Confucianism, Chinese intellectuals were traines for centuries, not to say "yes" or "no" if they had an own opinion.--Ulamm (talk) 14:20, 28 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

4. Baoxie vs Baoye

My findings after some time are that the most commonly used name of this road is Baoxie Road. The form Baoye comes from a commentary in the Shi Ji but there are uncertainties. My feeling that it is preferred by Western Academics more for academic reasons than neccessity and not used by many Chinese. So, if I had written this section I would say "Baoxie, sometimes called Baoye" rather than "Baoye, sometimes called Baoxie" and I would not say Baoxie is "erroneous". I have made the last change and invite discussion.

In German wikipedia, two very strict scholars of sinology are busy. Even one of them has admitted that most Chinese people pronounce "Baoxie". I don't object if you describe the pronounciation bias in a very moderate way.--Ulamm (talk)

5. Ziwu Road

I am not really happy with this part but have modified it a little. The Ziwu road was an ancient road that started from the Ziwu Gorge near Chang'an and went through (east) Jiangkou. From there at different times it went south or south-west. The southern routes went towards Chihe and present day Ankang (in the Han period at one time the site of the Hanzhong commandery) the later routes went via Ningshaan to Lianghe. This probably should be the best bet Ziwu Road. It is best to end it at the Ziwu River Gorge that runs from Lianghe to the Han. The way people went from Xixiang to Chang'an after bringing Lychee from Fuling was likely via this way. In my opinion, the road from Lianghe to Hanzhong is best looked at as a linking road. None of this is needed in the text but it is the background to the changes I tried to make.

Also in the Australian presentation which was my main sourcce, the road from Lianghe to Hanzhong is called a linking road.--Ulamm (talk)

6. Kugu Road

Some people would not include this among the main Shu Roads but I am happy to see it here. Again, I think its "end" could be at Xunyang or Ankang with linking roads to Hanzhong.

I think we should ess the roads from the whole way from Qin to the Yangtse basin. As I believe ot have understood, The oldes trails before the construction of the galleries were similar to the Kugu road.--Ulamm (talk)

7. AC to BC or BCE?

The typo "4th and 3rd Centuries AC" should (I think) be BC. But I prefer to use BCE (Before Common Era) instead of BC and CE (Common Era) instead of AD. Discussion welcome.

You are right. "AC" is like "ante Christum natum". I also think that "before Christ" is not aprropriate for Chines chronology. CE instead of AD is o.k., but BC is a decent acronyme. It has to be avoided that people understand "before present" instead of "before -1/+1".--Ulamm (talk)

8. Postal Road

I do not think the discussion is complete without mention of the Great Road or main Post Road. I have added what I feel is minimal.

That's good. I think it is a deficiancy of all wikpedias that a comprehensive information about the ancient system of Chinese post roads is missing. Eventually I've found the Shu roads looking for informations on those post roads:). Obviously you understand Chinese texts. I think more than one Wikipedian will be grateful, if you write an article on them.--Ulamm (talk) 14:20, 28 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Ulamm, I am afraid I am busy but there is quite a lot of information about Postal Roads in Herold Wiens Thesis. His Chinese source can still be found in libraries but there are better modern one (usually in Chinese). Jdw518 (talk) 06:49, 29 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

9. Li Bai

I believe Li Bai was responsible for both the quotes in the original text. Whether he is referring to the Baoye Road or Tangluo Road is a vigorous discussion! But most people think it is one of these as he mentions Tai Bai mountain.

His text gives an impression what travelling on these roads was like. Which of the roads he had gone, is of lesser iimportance.--Ulamm (talk)

10. Marco Polo

People also vigorously debate Marco Polo's contribution. But I think he provides a very accurate account of the great road. It was important to have mentioned the Great Road for this reason.

I approve that you emphasize the quality of his description, as time to time some people doubt if his had been in China at all.--Ulamm (talk)

Marco Polo is very Polo-rising! I am one who thinks this is as relevant as who really wrote Shakespeare's plays? The content matters most. Maybe this is interesting: de Rachewiltz, Igor (2002). F. Wood’s did Marco Polo go to China? A Critical Appraisal. Book Review, Technical Paper. http://hdl.handle.net/1885/41883, http://digitalcollections.anu.edu.au/handle/1885/41883. [Description: In her book “Did Marco Polo Go To China?” (first published by Secker & Warburg, London, in 1995), Dr Frances Wood claims that Marco did not go to China and that he ‘probably never travelled much further than the family’s trading post on the Black Sea and in Constantinople’. F.W.’s thesis, leading to the above conclusion, is based on a number of principal arguments and a few secondary ones as props. It should be mentioned that most of these arguments have been ‘aired’ by various writers since the beginning of the 19th century, but were never taken seriously by Polan scholars.]Jdw518 (talk) 06:59, 29 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

11. New Web Space

The change of the web space for the first web reference is (to me) the most important! The contents have not changed - but will in the future. Thank you for this link.

12. Stone Cattle Road

I added this as well as Jinniu as it has a nice link in Wikipedia that helps enrich the page. It is also often used.

Do really exist both names, 金牛道 and 石牛道, exist in Chinese texts? In http://cppcc.people.com.cn/GB/34961/229404/229405/15554713.html 人民网>>中国政协新闻网>>政协专题>>综述评论: 蜀道简介] I hav eonly seen 金牛道.--Ulamm (talk)

The are both used. If you go for a museum crawl between Chengdu and Hanzhong you will see it. There is a 石牛镇 (Shiniu Zhen) in Sichuan and a 金牛驿 (Jinniu Yi) in Shaanxi so it is even handed! But Shiniu makes sense as the old legend was that there were 5 stone cattle that excreted gold and not 5 golden cattle. Doubtful learned professors can be directed to: http://www.zuowen.com/e/20110913/4e6f220064d1f.shtml, cheers and thanks for all the good feedback. Maybe we should be more Chinese and believe appropriation is the highest praise! 203.217.61.199 (talk) 02:09, 29 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

13. New section

I would like to replace the paragraph starting with "During two conflicts...." with new text. I am uncomfortable with the suggestion that Liu Bei burned the Plank Roads. He was rarely in Hanzhong for a start. But these ideas are also at the heart of Plank Road history and legends. So I am putting it here to see if there is some discussion. I have testd it in the text under Edit (as should anyone interested to see how it looks) and I am happy with is. It awaits any discussion:

<text>

During times of conflict, sections of the plank roads were sometimes burned as a military stratagem. One such conflict was after the overthrow of the Qin Dynasty in 206 BC, when the successful leader of the revolt, Xiang Yu, banished his strongest rival Liu Bang to be ruler of the remote kingdoms of Han, Shu and Ba. Retreating with his army to Hanzhong, at the suggestion of his advisor Zhang Liang, Liu destroyed the plank roads immediately after his passage in order to stop any pursuers.^[1] Then, to deceive Xiang Yu of his intentions to attack the three kings of Qin, some say he pretended to repair the Plank Roads as his Generalissimo Han Xin took what is now called the Chencang Road to attack Chencang. Even today, Chinese say “openly repair the plank roads, secretly march on Chencang” (明修栈道，暗渡陈仓) to describe this stratagem. Later Liu Bang founded the Han Dynasty and in peacetime, the mountain roads were rebuilt. Another example occurred four hundred years later, in the age of the Three Kingdoms. The founder of the state of Shu Han, Liu Bei, had a famous advisor and Prime Minister Zhuge Liang (also called Kongming) who made constant use of the Shu Roads to attack the Kingdom of Wei. Following Kongming's death, Plank Roads were burned on at least two occasions to defend Hanzhong; once by the traitor Wei Yan and once by the patriot Jiang Wei, but nothing could save Shu Han. Afterwards the Plank Roads were restored and the traffic continued to flow.

</text> (unofficial xml!)

Just I have transferred your text into the article. I hope you won't accuse me for copyright violation:)--Ulamm (talk) 14:20, 28 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, when I saw it I thought I must have hit the wrong button but no problems! I will be quiet for a while now. Good luck.Jdw518 (talk) 06:53, 29 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

That is enough from me! Happy discussions

Jdw518 (talk) 12:49, 28 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

References

^ Sima Qian (120 BCE). Records of the Grand Historian. Translated by Burton Watson, Three Volumes (Revised 1993), Columbia University Press. Han Dynasty I. Book 8, The Basic Annals of the Emperor Gaozu.
[汉]司马迁，史记，传8，高祖本纪。

Requested move 6 December 2017

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: not moved. Consensus has formed below in "weak" opposition to renaming this article as proposed; however, if informal discussion garners a new consensus in the future to erect a better title, then the new arguments can be used in a new request for a page move. Happy Holidays to All! (closed by page mover) Paine Ellsworth ^put'r there 12:34, 25 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Shudao → Road to Shu – More descriptive in English and more common: [1]. Timmyshin (talk) 08:23, 6 December 2017 (UTC) --Relisting. Brad v 13:37, 13 December 2017 (UTC) --Relisted. Paine Ellsworth ^put'r there 02:56, 24 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Relist comment: members of WikiProject China and WikiProject History have been notified. Paine Ellsworth ^put'r there 02:56, 24 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Weakest possible oppose. The Google Books NGRAM shows that previously the proposed article name Road to Shu was more common, but usage of the current name Shudao is increasing and they're now equally common. Both names are well attested and each will be more helpful to some readers depending on their background etc., but that's all covered by the existing redirect. So no problem to solve, but no damage either way. Andrewa (talk) 19:00, 13 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Weak oppose - while English names are generally preferable to non-English ones, in this case the common English term "Road to Shu" is inaccurate, but the more proper "Roads to Shu" is rarely used. Shudao avoids the singular/plural issue, and as Andrewa has pointed out, its usage has been increasing and is now almost equal to "Road to Shu". -Zanhe (talk) 02:26, 14 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Weak oppose: Common usage aside, my understanding of the term is that it reflects beyond the roads; but also with the connotations about the advantageous terrain and the difficulty of passing through, immortalized by Li Bai's poetry. I think Shudao would reflect the essence of the term better in my opinion. Alex Shih (talk) 16:08, 24 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

Shudao.png

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 14:32, 23 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

[1] Sima Qian (120 BCE). Records of the Grand Historian. Translated by Burton Watson, Three Volumes (Revised 1993), Columbia University Press. Han Dynasty I. Book 8, The Basic Annals of the Emperor Gaozu.
[汉]司马迁，史记，传8，高祖本纪。

[1]