Talk:St. John's, Newfoundland and Labrador/Archive 1

Archive 1

Not to be confused with Disclaimer

Why do we need a page-top disclaimer "Not to be confused with Saint John, New Brunswick"? Is it really that much of a problem? The article title makes it clear you're talking about Newfoundland and Labrador. On the Saint John, New Brunswick page, similar information is relegated to a note at the bottom.--WPaulB 17:42, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Logo stjohns.png

Image:Logo stjohns.png is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot 05:19, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

"Most bars per square foot"

Per square foot of WHAT? This is a pseudo-statistic. What is the denominator used to calculate it? And where do other streets, in other cities, rank so that the originator of the statistic can conclude that "George Street has the most bars per square foot", whatever that means? Mathematically, it would seem to mean that George Street has small bars, and not much else.

Similarly, "most bars per capita". Which city has the SECOND MOST? How and when was this figure quantified? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.105.61.109 (talk) 00:38, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

Please see my post on Talk:George Street, St. John's, though I am certainly not the originator of the sentence in question. AshleyMorton 02:41, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Climate Graph

I added a climate graph. Numbers are rounded, readers can click the source link to see exact numbers; you can add that note if you like though I don't think it is entirely necessary.

If you think the graph is too distracting, simply change class="wikitable collapsible" to class="wikitable collapsible collapsed". That will reduce the graph to just the blue bar with the words "St. John's Climatological Data [show]", and it's pretty self explanatory on what the reader should do there. :)

The climate graph has been a little project of mine and I encourage feedback to continue to improve these graphs. :) Thanks.

More here.

vid 01:03, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

Miscellany

I've moved or removed most of the elements of the Miscellany section. I think the "lowest crime rate" reference belongs in the Demographics section - does anyone have a statistical reference for this? I have no idea where the "most bars per square foot" reference should go.Vulcan's Forge 01:15, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Section removed. I found a StatsCan reference for crime figures this week; hope to add some better text and some figures to support the Demographics Crime subsection soon.Vulcan's Forge 02:52, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

Radio

VOCM is still the official callsign of "K-Rock 97.5"; the reference to "VOCM (AM and FM)" needs to be maintained. Bearcat 03:23, 4 Mar 2005 (UTC)

The article states that the finder of new found land was the first to be "known to have reached mainland America." Isn't Newfoundland an island? see List of islands by area. Seabhcán 13:56, 16 May 2005 (UTC) yes of course it is, i love it too —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.138.151.220 (talk) 20:39, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

Article name should be St. John's, Newfoundland

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was No consensus to move page, per discussion below. -GTBacchus^(talk) 19:45, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

---

This article should be renamed to the format St. John's, Newfoundland. There is no need to add the full, verbose name of the province, when the city could be quite adequately disambiguated by using the name of the island on which it is located. (note 1.1 million ghits for "St. John's, Newfoundland" OR "St John's, Newfoundland", but only 400,000 ghits for "St. John's, Newfoundland and Labrador" OR "St John's, Newfoundland and Labrador")

WP:NAME says "Generally, article naming should prefer what the greatest number of English speakers would most easily recognize, with a reasonable minimum of ambiguity, while at the same time making linking to those articles easy and second nature", and that principle has not been applied here.

St. John's, Newfoundland and Labrador should of course be retained as a redirect.

See also discussion on renaming of related categories at Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2007_November_26#St._John.27s. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 12:07, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

• Oppose move First, the google hits survey is faulty as all the uses of "St. John's, Newfoundland and Labrador" will show up in the search for "St. Johns, Newfoundland". In other words, the 400,000 is included in the 1.1 million. But in any case, I disagree because the name of the province is Newfoundland and Labrador, and the trend it now towards using that name. It's similar to Trinidad and Tobago — we refer to San Fernando, Trinidad and Tobago, not "San Fernando, Trinidad", even though the second would be a shorter and completely satisfactory way of disambiguating the name. We do this because the common usage is to use the name of the political entity "Trinidad and Tobago", and we tend to use DAB terms for place names that are political entities. We use Honolulu, Hawaii and not "Honolulu, Oahu" (first is political, second is geographical). Similarly, it's common usage to use the political term "N&L" when referring to places in that province. "Newfoundland" is generally only used, as far as I can tell, in historical documents or in discussing the history of the province, and occasionally when discussing the place as a geographical island as opposed to a political entity. Finally, from WP:Naming conventions:

The canonical form for cities in Canada is City, Province/Territory (the "comma convention"). ... For the easternmost Canadian province, the canonical form is "City, Newfoundland and Labrador"; although they might be referred to as such in casual conversation, a city's proper legal designation is never just "City, Newfoundland" or "City, Labrador".

— Snocrates 12:29, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

• Oppose. The naming convention for Canadian cities, where it is determined that disambiguation is necessary, is City, Province. Not sure that I agree that the name of this province is "verbose" -- that's the name of the province. Skeezix1000 (talk) 15:47, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

• Oppose. St. John's, Newfoundland is already a redirect to the current article, so having to type "and Labrador" is unnecessary. St. John's is the capital of a province called "Newfoundland and Labrador". There is no province called "Newfoundland" anymore, and articles should reflect that. We don't have "Victoria, Vancouver Island" so there shouldn't be a "St. Johns, Newfoundland" (referring to the island) either. vıdıoman (talk • contribs) 16:36, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

• Oppose. The common usage may always remain, but not all English-speakers use or know the common usage "St. John's, Newfoundland". Web hits are also elusive - there are plenty of websites by people who were born on the Island of Newfoundland, and just call their birthplace the non-politically correct "Newfoundland", not "Newfoundland and Labrador" because it's a personal site and doesn't have to meet disambiguation standards. An encyclopedia is not a place to use relatively common usage. It's for everyone, so the more "verbose" correct name should be used. The searching problem won't really affect places in Newfoundland anyway.--WPaulB (talk) 17:23, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

• Oppose. We need to stick to the correct name here. The only way this move would be acceptable is if there were a consensus to move every community on the island to "City, Newfoundland" and every community on the mainland to "City, Labrador"; St. John's cannot be disambiguated differently from any other disambiguated community in the province. And that consensus simply isn't going to happen. Bearcat (talk) 04:36, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
• Comment Did anyone read the naming guideline? It doesn't say "use what's legally correct". And if people are using St John's Newfoundland on their own sites, that's a pretty good indication of where the common usage is. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 12:13, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment But it's not as clear-cut as you are making it out to be. You might be right if people hardly ever used the full name, but there are vast numbers of websites that use either. When both are used extensively, it just makes sense to use the legal name by default, especially when that conforms with naming conventions about places in Canada that were adopted by consensus AND it conforms to what is done with naming other articles with similar problems, as with cities in Trinidad and Tobago: to replicate your google search: "San Fernando, Trinidad" = 46,500 hits; "San Fernando, Trinidad and Tobago" = 13,500 hits. Subtracting the second from the first, we still have a more than 2:1 advantage for "San Fernando, Trinidad" being used, but the WP article is at San Fernando, Trinidad and Tobago. If you are adamant about a change such as this, we need to work on changing many more too. I know this is a type of WP:WAX argument, but sometimes it's worth seeing what the general pattern in is WP. Snocrates 12:17, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment St. John's, Newfoundland already re-directs to St. John's, Newfoundland and Labrador. I see absolutely no point in moving the article. If people use St. John's, Newfoundland it will wind up in the same place. It really doesn't matter. vıdıoman (talk • contribs) 11:57, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment The people who use it on their personal websites are not necessarily using it in enyclopedic fashion, and they don't adequately represent the entire English-speaking world who will read Wikipedia.--WPaulB (talk) 19:34, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
• Oppose. The standard is city, province. While it's quite true to say St. John's, Newfoundland, we need a standard for city naming. We are not about to have Sydney, Cape Breton or Victoria, Vancouver Island either. DoubleBlue (Talk) 07:37, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Date of Establishment

I have removed this section, partly because it is poorly written and badly supported, and partly because it may violate NPOV guidelines. I was able to find the referenced article in the Ottawa Citizen (reprinted in the National Post here) supporting the St. John's claim, but the cited article opposing it was entirely in French and no translation was provided. This may be vandalism related to a current debate in the Canadian media, resulting from a statement by a federal minister which basically ignores any claim St. John's may have as the oldest city in North America. Additionally this point has already been debated on this talk page (see sections above) and the article was reworded to indicate the oldest English-founded settlement in North America.Vulcan's Forge (talk) 00:26, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

The Battery

I did a quick start for The Battery" to start the ball rolling on this article.

Please contribute.

Mdavidbaird (talk) 00:34, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

LEAD-IN

Okay, based on the information/recommendations of the rejection for Featured Article status. I've rewritten the lead-in. I tried to give a brief intro to St. John's (1) geography and importance, (2) population, (3) history, (4) current state of affairs. Please rewrite or edit anything to improve the lead in, but we really need to keep everything well sourced (which I THINK i've done...). Theres no reason that we can't improve the quality of this article - it should be featured!

Does the lead-in sound good/better?

If this is good, can we remove the "lead-in requires expansion" tag on the page??

Mdavidbaird (talk) 14:20, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

Also, major re-write of Education section completed and sourced. Mdavidbaird (talk) 19:17, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

Check out Moncton and Thunder Bay, Ontario (And any other FA or GA or similar level article; I chose those two because they're similar sized cities) for ideas on how to improve this one. Generally, every statement should have a citation. That is, for each sentence, or at least each paragraph, there should be a citation. Wikipedia:Featured article criteria can also help.

The article is doing good in terms of pictures, but you have lots of lists that have to be converted to prose. vıdıoman 19:44, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

I agree with that, I was actually using the Moncton page as a more-or-less template for the information in this one. Another good page is Vancouver, while the size of the cities is significantly different, its still a featured page and using it as a model for sports, education, and other information will be helpful. Agree 100% on the lists. Mdavidbaird (talk) 19:48, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

St. John's, Antigua

Why should St. John's redirect here and not to the capital of the independent state of Antigua and Barbuda? Ethnocentrism? Gerry Lynch 14:38, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Population? 203.148.251.155 10:20, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

When searching for "St John's" in Wikipedia's search engine I am presented with several results including the capital of Antigua and Barbuda. I don't think this is a problem any longer. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mercerch (talk • contribs) 13:48, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Oldest city in Canada?

According to Paul O'Neill, (The Oldest City: The Story of St. John's, Newfoundland, 2003, ISBN 0-9730271-2-6.), the city was established by Royal Charter of Queen Elizabeth I on August 5, 1583 and the first permanent settlers arrived in 1605. If anyone is going to change the article, please quote a reliable source. 152.1.111.242 17:33, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

From http://www.stjohns.ca/cityservices/archives/history.jsp

The late sixteenth century saw the rise of Britain as a significant world naval power and with it, their dominant presence in the Newfoundland fishery, particularly in the area ranging from Cape Bonavista in the north to Cape Race in the south. St. John's recorded the first permanent settlers in this period with a family named Oxford establishing a plantation probably in the area west of Beck's Cove in the early 1600's.

The first permanent settlers arrived in the early 1600's. until someone can show that they arrived before 1608, then we shouldn't say that St. John's is the oldest city.

Also, if St. John's is the oldest city in Canada, can anyone give us the date? I mean the city is allegedly older than 400 years old. In that case, there should have been celebrations for its 400th anniversay. Can anyone clarify? Officialy, how old is this city?

St. John's is not the oldest city in North America. Mexico city is.

Clarify the definition of city used in these claims. St. John's had an anniversary celebration of 500 years in 1997, but technically, that's years of continuous yearly European settlement, permanent or otherwise. It certainly was not a city in 1497 by population standards or infrastructure. That's simply when Newfoundland, and possibly St. John's harbour was discovered by Europeans (technically the Vikings were first, around the year 1000 but that wasn't a permanent occupation). Because it was the most easterly port in the area and had an ice-free harbour, it was quickly turned into a place from which commerce flowed in the form of fish. It wasn't incorporated as a city until 1921, by the Newfoundland government. It's a '500 year old city', beacuse it's a city now which was founded or deemed in existence for 500 years in some form. The first pernament settlement attempt was in 1583, but I can't find any sources which state St John's was permanent until around 1610. It is one of the oldest permanent European settlements in North America.--WPaulB 15:11, 6 May 2007 (UTC) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by WPaulB (talk • contribs) 15:09, 6 May 2007 (UTC).

If you're gettting that specific, then wouldn't Tenhoctitlan, the predecessor of Mexico City on which it stands with an estimated population of 80,000, be the oldest city in North America? In fact there were more than a few Native American establishments which were home to 25,000 people or more, so they would technically be declared cities. Secondly, I'm from St.John's and have lived there my whole life. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.139.229.180 (talk) 18:00, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

The article was changed in mid-2007 to specify "oldest English-founded settlement in North America" and provided a reference. The history is interesting, but already accounted for in the article to support the usage we chose.--WPaulB (talk) 16:51, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

Most easterly

It says "the most easterly city in North America". But the North America article says Greenland is in North America, and that article calls the capital Nuuk a "city", and states the longitude, which is further east. Nuuk is just one example; Greenland has smaller towns further east that might be called "cities". Art LaPella (talk) 05:43, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Picture

If someone can get a picture of St. John's for the main display picture that is square instead of rectangle (like the one that is there now) it will be much better because now you can't really see the picture because of the shape, and you can't make it any bigger because it makes the box that it is in to wide. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jordo72 (talk • contribs) 02:10, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

Culture

There is no "Culture" section on this page and for a province and city that is known for having such a distinct culture it should be a necessity. If I new where to get articles on the culture of St. John's I'd create the section myslef but I'm not sure where to go to get the info so if someone one wants to look up this information or send me a link it would be great! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.116.120.203 (talk) 21:36, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

Merge tag

Please note that Wikipedia does not do, and does not want to start doing, "Demographics of individual city" spinouts. Bearcat (talk) 08:04, 13 February 2010 (UTC)

Get rid of the seperate page.--Jordo72 (talk) 03:36, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:St. John's, Newfoundland and Labrador/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Pyrotec (talk) 12:20, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

I will review. Pyrotec (talk) 12:20, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

Thank-you, can't wait! Newfoundlander&Labradorian (talk) 13:40, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

Well it will probably pass GA, but its quite a comprehensive/long article so it could take a couple of days to review; and I might make you do a bit of work before I pass it. But it is good to see your enthusiasm. Pyrotec (talk) 19:02, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

Initial comments

At this stage I'm going to work my way through the article section by section, but leaving the WP:Lead until last, and highlight any problems. The article appears to be at or about GA-level, so I anticipate that any problems that I find with be minor (I may fix some trivial problems without bothering to list them and wait for some else to fix them). So if it don't find any problems in a particular section/subsection, I may not say much about it here.

It helps me if questions/objections/comments, etc, in respect of a particular "problem" are made immediately below the listing of the problem; but generally comments can be blocked together on the page, if you wish. Pyrotec (talk) 13:00, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

• History -

• Ref 4 appears to be a book, it has an ISBN, so the relevant page number or numbers should be quoted.
• Ref 17 appears to be a book, it has an ISBN, so the relevant page number or numbers should be quoted.

• Geography -
  • Climate -

• "contrey" appears to be a typo, should it be "country"? - .... "The city is also one of the areas of the country most prone to tropical cyclone activity, as it is bordered by the Atlantic Ocean to the east, where tropical storms (and sometimes hurricanes) travel to this contrey.".
•  Done

• Cityscape -
  • Architecture -

• Y Pyrotec (talk) 16:23, 24 March 2011 (UTC) - Ref 29 appears to be a book, it has an ISBN, so the relevant page number or numbers should be quoted.

• Demographics -

• The prose looks to generally OK, but the article has two tables. The first one, "Ethnic origins", gives percentages the add up to about 136%. The source quoted gives the reason for this, but the table does not - I think it aught to.
• I'm not sure where to add that information, though I also think it's needed.Newfoundlander&Labradorian (talk) 11:01, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

• I don't I much experience of creating tables. Adding this after the line for "Germany" works, but not too well: |- style="text-align:center;" ! colspan= "3" | Note: Percentages add up to more than 100%.<br> Respondents reporting multiple ethnic origins <br> are counted more than once. The breaks <br> are need to stop the table being streched. Pyrotec (talk) 12:21, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

• I do have one comment on: "Many of the earliest settlers of St. John's came from the southwest of England, especially the West Country and Devon in particular, and southeast Ireland, primarily Waterford, Wexford and Kilkenny. These origins can still be detected in similarities between the original dialects of each of these regions and the traditional St. John's accent.". I think I understand what it is trying to say, but West Country (England) and southeast Ireland have different dialects, so I'm beginning to think that it might be the differences rather than similarities. There is no citation for this, so if it is likely to be contentious, then a citation(s) is/are needed.
•  Done

• Economy -

• Timescale seems to be entirely missing from this section, so there seems to be a series of problems in respect of WP:Vagueness.

• I'm just about willing to accept "The St. John's economy has been continuously connected both to its role as the provincial capital of Newfoundland and Labrador and to the ocean", but all the way back to say 1620? (Perhaps!).
•  Done
• "civil service ...... has been the key to the expansion of the city's labour force and to the stability of its economy, which supports a sizable retail, service and business sector". This does have a citation, but the figures only cover 2006 to 2010, so less there is more data to support it a caveat is needed: Since 2005, the civil service ........
• "With the collapse of the fishing industry in Newfoundland and Labrador ...". No time frame given, but the ref states 1992 for Cod fishing so that aught to be given.
•  Done
• "The economy is growing quickly,....". The referenced report is dated July 2010, so I suggest "As of 2010, the economy is growing quickly,...." or some similar device to add a time frame.
•  Done

• I seem to remember that Albright and Wilson, who I think had a office at St John's Newfoundland, built a phosphorus plant at Long Harbour/Harbor in the early 1970s and neglected to put in adequate effluent treatment plant and caused damage to the fishing industry (which cost them a lot of compensation), but that's not in this article.
• Never heard about it. Newfoundlander&Labradorian (talk) 11:12, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

• Possibly better known in Canada as ERCO - see "ERCO" - heritage.nf.ca. It's on a web site already used in this article. Pyrotec (talk) 12:50, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

I don't really see what this would have too do with the economy of St. John's though. The company may have been based here but Long Harbour is far away from the city. Newfoundlander&Labradorian (talk) 16:57, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

Well perhaps as it happened some 50 years ago and you had not heard of it, it is "unimportant". Sources I have suggest 80 kilometre separation between Long Harbour and St. John's, so I'm not suggesting that they are close by. The article originally stated: "The St. John's economy has been continuously connected both to its role as the provincial capital of Newfoundland and Labrador and to the ocean. .... With the collapse of the fishing industry in Newfoundland and Labrador the role of the ocean is now tied to what lies beneath it ...". Fishing was stopped in Placentia Bay for some six weeks in 1969 and the government had to compensate the fisherman, although ERCO later paid compensation. When the site closed jobs were lost as well as revenue. I've never been to St. John's so if you state that it was unaffected I will have accept that. Pyrotec (talk) 09:41, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

I guess I'll try and figure out how to write something up on it then. Newfoundlander&Labradorian (talk) 15:57, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

• Arts and culture -

Stopping for now. To be continued...... Pyrotec (talk) 16:00, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

• The first two paragraphs are unreferenced. I'm not too worried about the first one, but the second contains the (contentious) claim "The street is believed to have the most pubs and bars per square foot of any street in North America", so a citation is needed.

•  Done
• WP:Lead -

• This is intended to both introduce the article and summarise the main points. It does both, but it looks somewhat "thin" of an article of this length. Its probably just about acceptable, but ideally it could do with beefing up, by including just a bit more detail.

• Any tips on what detail I could add? Newfoundlander&Labradorian (talk) 19:20, 14 March 2011 (UTC)
• I would suggest that it needs to be about twice as long (and it also has to provide a summary of the main points). So my suggestions for possibly additions are: possibly oldest city in North America and may date back to early 17th century; the source of the name is contested it may come from John Cabot, Portugal or Spain (Basque Country); city was fortified the 18th & 19th centuries and was variously captured by the Dutch, the French and the British and was used as a base in the Second World War. Marconi radio and transatlantic flights. If culture, sports, museums are important mention them (I don't know whether are are or not from a Newfoundland and Labrador viewpoint). Pyrotec (talk) 10:13, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

At this point I'm putting the review On Hold for these points to be addressed. Pyrotec (talk) 09:12, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

Closing the review

• Reminder left at User talk:Newfoundlander&Labradorian#St. John's, Newfoundland and Labrador on 16:30, 24 March 2011 (UTC). User still active, but no further work in article. Pyrotec (talk) 16:35, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

I'm now closing this WP:GAN review. I wish the article well. The article is very close to being a GA. I would hope that someone is prepared to bring the article up to standard and renominate at WP:GAN at a future date. Pyrotec (talk) 16:35, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

Vandalism

Someone (?) at 142.162/163.?.? has been vandalizing this page a lot this month from an IP that changes within the IP group for nbnet.nb.ca. I can't prove it's one person, so I'm not sure what to do except revert.--WPaulB 18:06, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

On the third paragraphe of the intro there is obvious vandalism, except when I go to the edit option the vandalism doesn't appear in the text box, I'm not sure what to do there. 66.46.186.82 (talk) 19:58, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

File:Mile One Stadium.jpg Nominated for Deletion

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GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:St. John's, Newfoundland and Labrador/GA2. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Folklore1 (talk) 20:44, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

As I perform the review, I will be updating the following table. Please look for my questions, comments and recommendations below the table. Folklore1 (talk) 20:44, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

Rate	Attribute	Review Comment
	1. Well-written:
	1a. the prose is clear, concise, and understandable to an appropriately broad audience; spelling and grammar are correct.	See corrections applied to Crime, and Arts and culture.
	1b. it complies with the Manual of Style guidelines for lead sections, layout, words to watch, fiction, and list incorporation.	See corrections to Lead.
	2. Verifiable with no original research:
	2a. it contains a list of all references (sources of information), presented in accordance with the layout style guideline.	See corrections applied References.
	2b. reliable sources are cited inline. All content that could reasonably be challenged, except for plot summaries and that which summarizes cited content elsewhere in the article, must be cited no later than the end of the paragraph (or line if the content is not in prose).	See corrections applied to Geography.
	2c. it contains no original research.
	3. Broad in its coverage:
	3a. it addresses the main aspects of the topic.	Reasonably comprehensive.
	3b. it stays focused on the topic without going into unnecessary detail (see summary style).	Appropriate level of detail in various sections.
	4. Neutral: it represents viewpoints fairly and without editorial bias, giving due weight to each.	See corrections applied to Crime.
	5. Stable: it does not change significantly from day to day because of an ongoing edit war or content dispute.	no recent edit wars
	6. Illustrated, if possible, by media such as images, video, or audio:
	6a. media are tagged with their copyright statuses, and valid non-free use rationales are provided for non-free content.	12 share alike, 6 public domain, 1 official insignia
	6b. media are relevant to the topic, and have suitable captions.	relevant, high quality pix with suitable captions
	7. Overall assessment.

Second opinion

As I've been fairly liberal with suggestions for improving this article, especially the lead section, I feel a second opinion would be appropriate. I'm leaning toward GA approval, after one problem listed in my notes about References below (see "Important" box) has been corrected. Folklore1 (talk) 18:07, 12 August 2011 (UTC)

I will look through the article and provide feedback. – Quadell ^(talk) 13:04, 21 August 2011 (UTC)

In my opinion, the lede does not conform to the MoS. It's is fairly short for an article of this length, and it really only covers the history section. I would suggest a new paragraph or two in the lede, with roughly a sentence or two about each of the following sections: climate, architecture, arts and culture, attractions, sports, government, crime, transportation, and education.

Besides the lede, everything looks great. It's well-written and well-sourced. The remaining sourcing issue should be easy to fix, since that one sentence adds very little to the article anyway, and might as well be removed. Once that is fixed, and the lede is adequately expanded, I would pass this as a GA. All the best, – Quadell ^(talk) 14:49, 21 August 2011 (UTC)

Personally I don't feel the lead needs to be further expanded. The intro focuses on the geography, history and economy, I think adding a sentence about each section in a few paragraphs would make it very choppy. The lead's length is consistent with other GA articles; Edmonton, Winnipeg, London, Ontario, and much longer then Coquitlam. Newfoundlander&Labradorian (talk) 16:26, 21 August 2011 (UTC)

Well, Wikipedia:Manual of Style (lead section) states that "The lead section should briefly summarize the most important points covered in an article in such a way that it can stand on its own as a concise version of the article." The geography, history, and economy sections account for less than half the article's text. I think it's clearly an inadequate lede... but it's really up to the reviewer, I suppose. – Quadell ^(talk) 19:06, 21 August 2011 (UTC)

Thanks to Quade11 for the second opinion, and to Moriori for improvements to the lead section. I think the lead now "flows" nicely, with Moriori's help, and satisfies MOS criteria:

• able to stand alone--If space was limited, as often the case with a hard copy periodical, the lead section could serve as a stand alone stub.
• summarize the most important points--History, demography, geography and economy are more important than some of the other information. I have not used the length of their text to measure their significance. Instead, I have considered the impact on the article if those sections were omitted.

I don't think it's necessary to mention something from every section of the article in the lead; that would make it too long and cluttered.

I'm going to put the article On Hold briefly until the sourcing issue mentioned in my last "important" box is resolved. This can be done by removing the unsourced sentence, or providing a reference with sufficient detail for verification. When that last detail has been taken care of, the article will be ready for GA status. Folklore1 (talk) 19:53, 21 August 2011 (UTC)

Lead section

The lead section should serve as an introduction and summary of more detailed material to be found within the body of the article. When I read the History section, I should not be re-reading the same text, such as the sentence, "In the Basque Country..." Folklore1 (talk) 00:59, 27 July 2011 (UTC)

"A series of expeditions..." Folklore1 (talk) 01:05, 27 July 2011 (UTC)

I've had trouble with the introduction. It had been shorter but the first person who reviewed this page said it was too short, they eventually helped me edit and expand it and this is how it turned out. I don't really know what to do with it. Newfoundlander&Labradorian (talk) 01:06, 27 July 2011 (UTC)

I suggest the sentence starting "The name is believed..." in the first paragraph could be trimmed to "The name is believed to commemorate the feast day of Saint John the Baptist, when John Cabot sailed into its harbour on June 24, 1497." Then remove the subsequent sentences from that paragraph; these details belong in the History section, not the lead. Folklore1 (talk) 01:42, 27 July 2011 (UTC)

Maybe the entire second paragraph should be removed from the lead section. Any material from this paragraph that isn't already in History should be added to History. Folklore1 (talk) 01:46, 27 July 2011 (UTC)

The third paragraph looks okay. It gives us a suitable introduction to the Economy section, without going into too much detail or using text repeated later. Folklore1 (talk) 01:49, 27 July 2011 (UTC)

Took out the second paragraph. Newfoundlander&Labradorian (talk) 01:53, 27 July 2011 (UTC)

My suggestion might have been a bit hasty. The first transatlantic flight and the first transatlantic wireless transmission were quite notable, so they might be something to mention in the lead. Briefly, of course, so the article doesn't repeat itself later. Folklore1 (talk) 02:03, 27 July 2011 (UTC)

1st paragraph of lead

Disregard my previous suggesions about the Lead. I'm going to discuss each paragraph of the lead separately. For the first paragraph, I recommend the following:

• The first two sentences are okay. No changes.
• The third sentence begins "The name is believed". This needs to be revised a bit, because too much of it is repeated in History.  Done
• All of the fourth sentence, "A series of expeditions", is repeated in History. It doesn't need to be in the Lead. Remove it.  Done
• All of the fifth sentence, "In the Basque Country", is repeated in History. We don't want all of this information here, so remove the fifth sentence. Due to its significance, some of this info needs to be part of the lead. I suggest adding a brief mention of the Basque fishing town to third sentence. Perhaps like this: Its name has been attributed to the feast day of John the Baptist, when John Cabot was believed to have sailed into the harbour in 1497, and also to a Basque fishing town with the same name. Folklore1 (talk) 18:57, 2 August 2011 (UTC)  Done

2nd paragraph of lead

• The first two sentences of this paragraph are okay. No changes.
• The third and fourth sentences look awkward. I think this can be fixed by joining them with a colon where the third sentence currently ends at "19th centuries." Folklore1 (talk) 19:22, 2 August 2011 (UTC)  Done

I don't care for the way the third sencence, "It remained fortified...", gets repeated in History. We could eliminate that problem and tighten up the second paragraph, possibly as follows:

• Remove "the first plans being prepared in 1689" from the second sentence.  Done
• Remove the third sentence. ("It remained fortified...")  Done
• Revise the fourth sentence (currently starting "The British making use") with: British forces made use of St. John's fortifications during the Seven Years' War in North America, the American Revolutionary War and the War of 1812. Folklore1 (talk) 19:50, 2 August 2011 (UTC)  Done

The text of the seventh sentence, starting with "During the Second World War", is duplicated in History. Perhaps it could be revised as: St. John's served allied needs in the Second World War by providing an air base for the U.S. Army Air Corps and a harbour for antisubmarine warfare ships. It should be moved up to follow my previous suggested sentence which starts with "British forces made use". Folklore1 (talk) 20:13, 2 August 2011 (UTC)  Done

Sentence 5, "Guglielmo Marconi received...", and sentence 6, "In June 1919...", are repeated in History. Although these are notable points of history, maybe they should be omitted from the Lead. Folklore1 (talk) 20:19, 2 August 2011 (UTC)  Done

3rd paragraph of lead

This paragraph looks okay. No changes recommended. Folklore1 (talk) 00:10, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

History

Early History - I think the presence of any First Nations prior to the European conquest should be mentioned, also if the area had been uninhabited at the time. No excavations, no nothing? --Poco4 (talk) 18:54, 16 August 2020 (UTC)

In the first paragraph of the History section, "(in Spanish, San Juan" needs a right parenthesis. Folklore1 (talk) 16:44, 28 July 2011 (UTC)  Done

"oldest street in North America" in the second paragraph would be alright if the Water Street (St. John's) article contained a citation to the source of that claim. It doesn't. Please correct this problem. Folklore1 (talk) 16:51, 28 July 2011 (UTC)  Done

What is the source of the quote: "the principal prime and chief lot in all the whole country"? Folklore1 (talk) 16:59, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

William Payne needs to be credited, in the article's text, with making that statement in 1627. Folklore1 (talk) 20:01, 1 August 2011 (UTC)  Done

In the 5th paragraph, see: "in 1705, and captured it in 1708" The "and" after the comma is unnecessary. This is just a minor nitpick. If you forgot about the "and" while fixing everything else in the article, I'd give it the nod for GA status. Folklore1 (talk) 17:15, 28 July 2011 (UTC)  Done

"18th and 19th century" in the 6th paragraph should probably be plural. Folklore1 (talk) 17:16, 28 July 2011 (UTC)  Done

Modern history - second paragraph has "St. John's served as a naval base during the American Revolutionary War and the War of 1812." The source given (No 20) does not mention anything later than 1790, other sources are needed. So what troops were stationed here, what was the city's role in both wars? --Poco4 (talk) 18:54, 16 August 2020 (UTC)

The last sentence of the History section begins with "99". I suggest recasting the sentence so it doesn't start with "99" or "ninety-nine". You'll find this preference mentioned in the Numbers section of the Manual of Style. Folklore1 (talk) 17:44, 28 July 2011 (UTC)  Done

In the fourth paragraph, "had excluded other nations from most of the east coast" is unclear. I think "of Newfoundland" would be a helpful addition to the sentence. Folklore1 (talk) 19:54, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

I revised the sentence for clarity, and so that the text doesn't just copy the source material. Folklore1 (talk) 15:23, 8 August 2011 (UTC)  Done

Geography

See "and on the Atlantic Ocean" in the first paragraph of this section. I'm sure this phrase actually means the city is located along the coast of the Atlantic Ocean rather than on the ocean itself. If you really want a link to the Atlantic Ocean here, you might want to recast the sentence. Otherwise, I suggest removing the phrase. Folklore1 (talk) 17:57, 28 July 2011 (UTC)  Done

I ran into three consecutive sentences starting with "The" in the first paragraph of this section. Technically, that's not bad grammar, but it is boring. A possible fix: Replace "The downtown area" with "Its downtown area" to give the paragraph a little variety and to be more specific about which downtown area. Folklore1 (talk) 18:15, 28 July 2011 (UTC)  Done

It's not quite clear to me where we're starting from when "the rest of the city expands". If downtown is the starting point, adding "from downtown" would help. I'm guessing that "to the north, south, east and west" means the city expands in all directions from that point. Folklore1 (talk) 18:15, 28 July 2011 (UTC)  Done

How about recasting the first sentence of the second paragraph to start as: "Coniferous trees such as black spruce, white spruce, and balsam fir dominate the native vegetation." Moving "the" to the inside and replacing "is" with another verb makes reading the sentence so much more pleasant. This is an optional change, not required for GA status, but do consider it. I like to see variety in sentence structure. Folklore1 (talk) 18:26, 28 July 2011 (UTC)  Done

Should "littleleaf linden" have a hyphen? Littleleaf and little-leaf linden both point to the article about small-leaf linden. Does Linden need an uppercase "L"? Folklore1 (talk) 18:35, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

The reference titled "Statistics Canada Population and Dwelling Count" does not seem to have any information supporting the sentence: "The city is the largest in the province and the second largest in the Atlantic Provinces after Halifax, Nova Scotia." Folklore1 (talk) 20:27, 1 August 2011 (UTC)}}

I found the census table that should have been used to support this text and replaced the erroneous reference. Folklore1 (talk) 22:47, 11 August 2011 (UTC)  Done

Architecture

In the third paragraph of this section, "The city council have" should be singular. Folklore1 (talk) 19:07, 28 July 2011 (UTC)  Done

In the fourth paragraph, "beyond 15 metres, in area of land" looks like it should be "beyond 15 metres in the area of land". Folklore1 (talk) 19:12, 28 July 2011 (UTC)  Done

"greater height, the first" doesn't look quite right. It needs to either be broken into two sentences or divided with something other than a comma. Folklore1 (talk) 19:16, 28 July 2011 (UTC)  Done

What is the source for the "10 Tallest Buildings in St. John's" ? Folklore1 (talk) 19:20, 28 July 2011 (UTC)  Done

In the third paragraph of this section, see "typically painted in bright colours, unlike most other parts of Canada". The cited reference supports the claim of houses with bright colours, but does not mention whether "most other parts of Canada" lack this characteristic. I suggest removing the unsupported phrase. Also, the article by Jeff Schlegel originated in The New York Times, not The Boston Globe, and the Times as well as its columnist should be given credit. Folklore1 (talk) 13:25, 2 August 2011 (UTC)  Done

"Microsoft Word - 1832-01 LUAR FINAL_Proposed Office and Parking Bldg., 351 Water St. 2010 May 28.docx" is not a suitable label for this reference. This citation needs more detail to protect the source from the risk of loss to link rot. Folklore1 (talk) 13:52, 2 August 2011 (UTC)  Done

Demographics

A colon would be more appropriate for "12 other communities,". Folklore1 (talk) 19:26, 28 July 2011 (UTC)  Done

The ethnic background of European settlers are displayed in detail. I think it would only be fair at least to mention the name(-s?) of the First Nation(s) residing in the city! --Poco4 (talk) 19:10, 16 August 2020 (UTC)

Religion

The religion table might need reviewing. The referred source is no longer available (Found this page which seem to be the referred to 2001 census, although with slightly different numbers). It might furthermore not be clear to everyone that some table entries overlap each other, so it might be a good idea to implement a design that takes such a thing into account. Ozmonatov (talk) 17:41, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

Picture: Text says "Catholicism is the largest religion in the city." Catholicism is no religion. It is a branch/denomination of the Christian religion.--Poco4 (talk) 19:10, 16 August 2020 (UTC)

Last paragraph: "All major Christian sects showed a decline from 2001 to 2011 with a large increase in those with no religion from 3.9% to 11.1%" "Churches" would be a better term than "sects" as the latter usually refers to splinter groups. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sect) --Poco4 (talk) 19:10, 16 August 2020 (UTC)

Economy

"connected to both to" should be "connected to both". "as oppose to what" should be "as opposed to what". "5.8 per cent, the highest amount" should be "5.8 per cent, the highest rate". Folklore1 (talk) 12:42, 29 July 2011 (UTC)  Done

The sentence starting "St. John's is also becoming" looks like it would be a good starting point for a new paragraph. Folklore1 (talk) 12:45, 29 July 2011 (UTC)  Done

See "as an entrepreneurial city, in a 2009 report". I recommend replacing the comma with a period and starting a new sentence with "In a 2009 report". Folklore1 (talk) 12:47, 29 July 2011 (UTC)  Done

In the first paragraph, see "a fourth development, Hebron, is expected to be producing oil by 2017". This is not supported by the reference titled, "NL Profile". Folklore1 (talk) 14:37, 2 August 2011 (UTC)  Done

The citation titled "2010 - 2013 Corporate Strategic Plan" would be more helpful if it identified the relevant page or pages. It could also be improved with the full title, "2010-2013 Corporate Strategic Plan, City of St. John's" and the date, June 2010. Folklore1 (talk) 14:46, 2 August 2011 (UTC)  Done

opens fine for me. Newfoundlander&Labradorian (talk) 02:32, 12 August 2011 (UTC)

After I corrected the security level of my anti-virus software, I was able to open the file and verify the GDP. Folklore1 (talk) 12:12, 12 August 2011 (UTC) Y

The citation to "Communities in Boom: Canada’s Top Entrepreneurial Cities in 2009" should include the author's name, Queenie Wong, and the date, October 2009. Folklore1 (talk) 14:52, 2 August 2011 (UTC)  Done

Arts and culture

The sentence beginning "St. John's has a vibrant nightlife," is unclear, because the rest of the sentence and paragraph seem to be about the nightlife of a specific street rather than all of St. John's. Folklore1 (talk) 13:02, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

That's where it's concentrated. Newfoundlander&Labradorian (talk) 00:26, 10 August 2011 (UTC)

Suggested revision: "George Street, a downtown side-street above the western end of Water Street, is the predominant home of the city's nightlife." The second sentence should then be revised so that we don't have two consecutive sentences starting with "George Street". Folklore1 (talk) 13:10, 29 July 2011 (UTC)  Done

The paragraph beginning with "The LSPU Hall is home" would look more pleasing if its first two sentences were recast to start with something other than "The". Perhaps a portion of the second sentence can be combined with the first. (Just a suggestion, not something I'd absolutely insist upon for GA status.) Folklore1 (talk) 13:19, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

Museum

"The Provincial Museum of Newfoundland and Labrador" starts an awkward paragraph. I'm not sure whether the primary subject of the paragraph is the Provincial Museum or the Rooms. A rearrangement of the text would be helpful. Folklore1 (talk) 13:32, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

Corrections have clarified the significance of the Rooms. However, the first sentence remains a bit awkward. It could be corrected by replacing the period with a semicolon. Alternatively, I suggest removing the comma and replacing the phase that followed it with: "in a building listed on the Canadian Register of Historic Places." Folklore1 (talk) 13:17, 1 August 2011 (UTC)  Done

Urban parks

"Bowring Park is located in the Waterford Valley and is one of the most scenic parks in St. John's." contains too much "is", making it tedius to read. I suggest: "Bowring Park, located in the Waterford Valley, is one of the most scenic parks in St. John's." Folklore1 (talk) 13:54, 29 July 2011 (UTC)  Done

"and is also the finishing location for the annual Tely 10 road race." should be broken into a separate sentence. Too much "and". Folklore1 (talk) 13:54, 29 July 2011 (UTC)  Done

"BPMPMain Report" is a dead link and needs to be replaced. Folklore1 (talk) 15:01, 2 August 2011 (UTC)  Done

Sports

Should "starting in the 2011-2012" be changed to "starting in the 2011-2012 season"? Folklore1 (talk) 14:22, 29 July 2011 (UTC)  Done

In the paragraph about the Tely, see "both male and female, it began in 1922". The sentence should be broken into two at the comma, or its structure needs to be recast. Folklore1 (talk) 14:22, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

I broke the sentence into two. Folklore1 (talk) 18:40, 12 August 2011 (UTC)  Done

The citation to "St. John’s scores an AHL team" should include the name of the author, Brendan McCarthy. Folklore1 (talk) 15:11, 2 August 2011 (UTC)  Done

"http://www.winnipegsun.com/2011/06/01/agreement-in-place-to-move-moose-to-st-johns" is just a url. It is not a proper reference. Folklore1 (talk) 15:16, 2 August 2011 (UTC)  Done

"1972 MacDonald Brier Coverage on CurlingZone - Everything Curling" is a dead link and should be replaced. Folklore1 (talk) 15:26, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

Alternatively, the information supported by this reference could be removed. Folklore1 (talk) 14:38, 8 August 2011 (UTC)  Done

Law and government

All five of the sentences in the first paragraph start with "The". Some restructuring would make this paragraph more comfortable to read. Folklore1 (talk) 14:50, 29 July 2011 (UTC)  Done

In the second paragraph, see "in September, the current city". Perhaps the sentence should be broken into two where the comma is currently located.  Done With that change, I would also recommend recasting the sentence about the mayor. Suggestion: "Dennis O'Keefe has served as mayor of St. John's since 2008." Folklore1 (talk) 14:50, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

The sentence about City Hall overuses "and". My suggestion for improving it: "The St. John's City Hall, located on New Gower Street, has housed municipal offices and Council Chambers since being officially opened in 1970."  Done Or maybe reorganize it completely so it doesn't start with "The". Folklore1 (talk) 14:50, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

I changed 4 to four to be consistent with the Wikipedia Manual of Style. Folklore1 (talk) 14:56, 29 July 2011 (UTC) Y

In the third paragraph, the sentence beginning "The city is represented" runs on excessively, making it difficult to read. It should be broken into two sentences or reorganized. Folklore1 (talk) 15:06, 29 July 2011 (UTC)  Done

See "Federal Government Departments and Agencies" in the last paragraph. Is this a title? Or should some of these words start with lower case letters? Folklore1 (talk) 15:06, 29 July 2011 (UTC)  Done

The citation to "Getting to know the premier" should include the name of the author, Steve Bartlett. Folklore1 (talk) 15:45, 2 August 2011 (UTC)  Done

The meaning of "is one of six Progressive Conservatives who represents a district in the capital city" is unclear. Should this phrase be: one of six Progressive Conservatives, represents a district in the capital city or is one of six Progressive Conservatives who represent a district in the capital city? Folklore1 (talk) 13:58, 3 August 2011 (UTC)  Done

"New Democrat Lorraine Michael represents..." starts an awkward, run-on sentence. I suggest rearranging it as: "Lorraine Michael, leader of the New Democratic Party since 2006, represents the district of Signal Hill-Quidi Vidi and is the only member of her party elected to the House of Assembly." Folklore1 (talk) 14:03, 3 August 2011 (UTC)  Done

Crime

The phrase, "was one of the safest cities in Canada", in the first paragraph is too vague and seems to lack neutrality. Who said it? When? Where was this opinion published? Folklore1 (talk) 15:22, 29 July 2011 (UTC)  Done

In the second paragraph, see "has increased, in 2009". The sentence looks awkward. Perhaps it should break into two sentences at the comma. The next sentence in this paragraph has a similar problem and should also be revised. Folklore1 (talk) 15:30, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

See "St. John's has the seventh-highest metropolitan crime index and twelfth-highest metropolitan violent crime index in the country." The time period (year) of these indexes should be included and "has" should be changed to "had". Folklore1 (talk) 15:43, 29 July 2011 (UTC)  Done

Transportation

In the second paragraph, "providing access to the neighbourhoods of those streets relatively easy" seems a bit awkward. I suggest "providing relatively easy access to neighbourhoods served by those streets." Folklore1 (talk) 15:55, 29 July 2011 (UTC)  Done

"Pitts Memorial Drive has been criticised" needs reference to a source. Folklore1 (talk) 15:55, 29 July 2011 (UTC) As this unnecessary sentence has been removed, the problem has been resolved. Folklore1 (talk) 12:44, 1 August 2011 (UTC)  Done

The Transportation section currently states that the Trans Canada Highway is "the third longest national highway in the world". However, the reference, "TransCanadaHighway.com Highway Overview", claims it is the longest, not the third longest. Has there been a change in the highway's status since 2008, when the reference was previously accessed? Folklore1 (talk) 16:05, 2 August 2011 (UTC)  Done

"Metrobus Ridership Statistics" did not provide verification for the 778 bus stops and 68 shelters mentioned in Transporation. An additional reference should be given in support of the bus stops and shelters. Alternatively, the counts of bus stops and shelters could be omitted from the article. Folklore1 (talk) 17:15, 2 August 2011 (UTC)  Done

"Metrobus Dot Com — Routes" is a dead link and should be replaced. Folklore1 (talk) 17:21, 2 August 2011 (UTC)  Done

Education

This section mentions "a post-secondary ocean and marine polytechnic". Is a Canadian polytechnic the same as a Polytechnic (United Kingdom)? I live in Baltimore and am unfamiliar with the term. Folklore1 (talk) 17:56, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

There are citations to two references for the Eastern School District. Both identify Geoff J. Taylor as the author, but I found no mention of this name on the referenced web pages. Is this person actually the author of the text on these pages? Folklore1 (talk) 17:34, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

I removed the name of Geoff J. Taylor from the reference citations, because the sources do not have bylines. Folklore1 (talk) 01:24, 12 August 2011 (UTC)  Done

Local media

"as most independent stations do" needs a reference citation so that I can verify it. Folklore1 (talk) 18:20, 29 July 2011 (UTC) Removing the phrase also solves the problem, so we can consider this correction  Done. Folklore1 (talk) 12:37, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

Should the titles for "Out of the Fog and One Chef One Critic" be italicized? Folklore1 (talk) 18:20, 29 July 2011 (UTC)  Done

References

"The St. John's Metropolitan Area CMA ..." does not need to be listed in this section as a solitary note above the other reference notes. Most of the information from this note is already part of the Demographics section, which is where the rest of it belongs. After moving this information to Demographics, the "Notes" subheader can be removed. Folklore1 (talk) 18:44, 29 July 2011 (UTC)  Done

"Population of census metropolitan areas (2006 Census boundaries)" does not seem an appropriate reference title. Its source is a table labeled, "Population by sex at July 1: Annual population estimates by census metropolitan area, Canada". It comes from the work, "Annual Demographic Estimates: Subprovincial Areas 2005 to 2010". Folklore1 (talk) 14:06, 1 August 2011 (UTC)  Done

The source referred to by "John Cabot: Newfoundland and Labrador Heritage" does not actually support the date given in the lead paragraph, or any specific date for Cabot's landfall in 1497. Folklore1 (talk) 14:24, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

"John Cabot's Voyage of 1497", another page from the Newfoundland and Labrador Heritage Web Site Project, mentions the belief "that Cabot entered the St. John's harbour on June 24", but does not speculate on the connection between that date and the city's name. Folklore1 (talk) 17:39, 1 August 2011 (UTC)  Done

"History of St. John's" from St. John's Kiosk supports all of the info in the Lead paragraph about origin of the city's name. However, it's a weak source; it doesn't credit an author or give a hint about where this information came from. Better than no reference at all, but I'd prefer a more scholarly source. Folklore1 (talk) 17:51, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

"Economic Impacts of the Cod Moratorium" is a good reference, but the citation can be improved with the author's name, year of publication (2008), and the publisher's name. This information could be helpful in tracking down the reference in an archive or at another site after the publisher discontinues the current web page. Folklore1 (talk) 18:03, 1 August 2011 (UTC)  Done

"Microsoft Word - NL oil 7-25-1.doc" tells us nothing useful about the source and is not a suitable title. A properly detailed reference should give the title actually used by the term paper it connects to: "Offshore Oil: An Overview of Development in Newfoundland and Labrador". It should also provide the author's name, its date, the work it comes from (hint: Oil, Power and Dependency) and the publisher. Folklore1 (talk) 18:18, 1 August 2011 (UTC)  Done

Footnotes 4 and 10 are the same reference. Please combine them with a reference name. Folklore1 (talk) 19:19, 1 August 2011 (UTC)  Done

The citation to "GILBERT (Gylberte, Jilbert), SIR HUMPHREY" should include the author's name. Folklore1 (talk) 19:36, 1 August 2011 (UTC)  Done

Alternatively, the sentence beginning "At the time, he found" could be removed from the article, along with the incomplete reference citation. Folklore1 (talk) 01:32, 12 August 2011 (UTC)  Done

"Electrical Engineering Milestone" is an awfully sketchy reference. How about a little more information? Folklore1 (talk) 20:12, 1 August 2011 (UTC)  Done

There are two footnotes citing "Canadian Climate Normals 1971–2000". Please combine them with a reference name. Folklore1 (talk) 13:05, 2 August 2011 (UTC)  Done

"St. John's Heritage Areas, Heritage Buildings and Public Views" links to a good reference, but the citation doesn't provide enough details about this source. It should state the actual title of the report, "St. John’s Heritage Areas, Heritage Buildings and Public Views Study", its author, PHB Group Inc., and the publication date of 21 March 2003. As the report is long, a page number where the relevant information can be found would also be helpful. In this instance, perhaps the citation should direct the reader to "2.1.2 Existing Regulations" on page 7. Folklore1 (talk) 13:45, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

The edit applied to this reference damaged its link to the source. Folklore1 (talk) 01:20, 8 August 2011 (UTC)  Done

There are two footnotes citing: "Statistics Canada". 2.statcan.ca. 2010-12-06. Please combine them with a reference name. Folklore1 (talk) 13:57, 2 August 2011 (UTC)  Done

The citation titled, "Netcentrics Corporation - www.netcentrics.net (1997-08-04)" looks like something that got scrambled by an edit. It needs to be corrected and given proper reference details. Folklore1 (talk) 14:15, 2 August 2011 (UTC)  Done

The label, "Statistical Profile", does not provide sufficient information about this reference. It should be corrected to protect it from link rot. Folklore1 (talk) 14:19, 2 August 2011 (UTC)  Done

"ExxonMobil Canada moving to St. John's" is a dead link. It needs to be repaired or replaced. Folklore1 (talk) 14:26, 2 August 2011 (UTC)  Done

The citation titled "St. John’s topped GDP list in 2010" should also include the author's name. Folklore1 (talk) 14:40, 2 August 2011 (UTC)  Done

There are two footnotes citing "Downtown St. John's Attractions". Please combine them with a reference name. Folklore1 (talk) 15:37, 2 August 2011 (UTC)  Done

Infobox

The infobox lists 24 June 1497 as the city's founding date. Its founding date should probably be "c. 1620". Folklore1 (talk) 18:34, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

Or maybe 1610, year of the first colonisation attempt. See the refernce "Newfoundland: Brief History". Folklore1 (talk) 15:20, 8 August 2011 (UTC)

Urban and metro land areas were not given elsewhere in the article, so a source needs to be cited. A reference is also needed for dwellings and median income. The asterisk beside the "median income" label does not seem to have any purpose. Folklore1 (talk) 18:57, 1 August 2011 (UTC)  Done

Climate

"The Climate of Newfoundland" sent me to a site labeled, "The Wayback Machine". It was not helpful. This reference needs to be replaced with an updated source of climate information. Folklore1 (talk) 12:52, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

That site brings you to the link after a few seconds. Newfoundlander&Labradorian (talk) 20:54, 8 August 2011 (UTC)

Yes. I found that, with patience, it eventually works. Folklore1 (talk) 12:47, 9 August 2011 (UTC)Y

Merger proposal

It has been already proposed in February 2010 to merge Demographics of St. John's into this article. There was support for the merger at the time, and I support it as well as no need for separate article for a city of such moderate size. --Elekhh (talk) 07:00, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

saint john's name

saint john is traditionally the preferred saint and festival amongst fishermen from this region in northern portugal, fishermen here visit newfoundland since very early periods and tales about newfoundland are common part of fisher mythology. it would be quit acceptable or predictable they named a new land saint john, if that was the case. the relation with Norman and Breton fishermen also makes historical and cultural sense. - pedropvz 17:24, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

so the full name is Saint John's? Jackzhp (talk) 00:42, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

No. Newfoundlander&Labradorian (talk) 01:14, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

I think pedopvz is implying/asking if the name comes from fishermen from Portugal, and the answer is no, it did not have its association with Saint John until after British settlement; I don't know the details, do you N&L?Skookum1 (talk) 07:24, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

Importance

This article does not have the requirements to be a High-importance article. It barely meets the requirements of a Mid-importance article. Njaohnt (talk) 00:56, 17 March 2014 (UTC)

It doesn't? It's a provincial and former colonial capital and was of major strategic importance in WWII. Re WPCANADA being a provincial capital is more than enough to quality it for high importance, even "top".Skookum1 (talk) 03:36, 17 March 2014 (UTC)

"Oldest English-founded" or just "oldest"?

I'm in St. John's right now....on various shops and on the harbourfront history displays it consistently says "oldest city in North America"....a music shop on water is "the oldest shop on the oldest block of the oldest street in North America". Was Quebec founded earlier?Skookum1 (talk) 17:45, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

San Agustín in Florida, founded in the 1560s. Now Saint Augustine. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.85.2.56 (talk) 15:46, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

San Agustín was founded in September 1565, St. John was founded on 24 June 1497 70.71.172.54 (talk) 07:18, 25 October 2013 (UTC)

Quebec City was founded and officially inhabited in 1608, so it is definitely older than St. John's. 192.226.181.116 (talk) 15:41, 3 June 2015 (UTC)

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Oldest settlement?

Usually, historians say that the oldest settlement in north america is St.Augustine in Florida (around 1521 if I'm not mistaken). I'm not saying St.John's is not the oldest settlement in North America but it needs to be verified.

The confusion might be due to the fact that the criterion used usually is continous occupation of the settlement, something that would need to be verified in the case of st.johns. 5 december 2005

I would argue the above statement. Usally, American historians say that oldest settlement in north america is St.Augustine in Florida. However, St. Augustine wasnt founded until 1561, 64 years after St. John's. The St. Augustine wikipage, states that it is the oldest settlement in the USA, not North America. Bmpower 13:36, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

While I don't doubt that Americans and Canadians make these claims, both are wrong. Mexico City (Tenochtitlan) is in North America and is far older than either St. John's or St. Augustine. It was founded in 1325 and has been continuously inhabited since that date. Correction made. 76.195.223.230 (talk) 19:51, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

"24, 1497. His precise landing-place is a matter of much controversy, either Bonavista or St. John's. He went ashore to take possession of the land, and explored the coast for some time, probably departing on July 20. On the homeward voyage his sailors thought they were going too far north, so Cabot sailed a more southerly course, reaching Brittany instead of England. On August 6 he arrived back in Bristol.

The exact location of Cabot's first landfall is still unknown, because of lack of evidence. Many experts think it was on Cape Bonavista, Newfoundland, but others look for it in Cape Breton Island, Nova Scotia, Labrador or Maine. We might never know the truth. His men may have been the first Europeans on either American continent since the Vikings: Christopher Columbus did not find the mainland until his third voyage, in 1498, and letters referring to a voyage by Amerigo Vespucci in 1497 are generally believed to have been forgeries or fabrications."

from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Cabot

If St.Johns was founded in 1497, then it should be clear that John Cabot landed there. However in the article, it's not stated as a fact. Therefore we should reconsider the date St.John's was founded. We should find when the first permanent settlers came to St.John's.

Plus I found this http://www.stjohns.ca/cityservices/archives/history.jsp

"The late sixteenth century saw the rise of Britain as a significant world naval power and with it, their dominant presence in the Newfoundland fishery, particularly in the area ranging from Cape Bonavista in the north to Cape Race in the south. St. John's recorded the first permanent settlers in this period with a family named Oxford establishing a plantation probably in the area west of Beck's Cove in the early 1600's. "

Therefore I think we should remove the line that says that St.Johns is the oldest settlement in North America.

I agree that the line should be reworded, it sounds like it was written by a middle school student. There were settlements in North America many thousands of years before either Newfoundland or St Augustine. It should be changed into the oldest British settlement in North America. St Augustine was officially established, and claimed by Spain in 1565. If Newfoundland was not chartered until 1583 then it was not an official city until after St Augustine. Just because ships were in ports in the area does not make it a city, there was not even a population there until the 17th century.:Chuggy 08:53, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

St. John's became the oldest British colony in North America as, on August 5, 1583, Sir Humphrey Gilbert took possession of the region for England. The region was contested for many years - exactly how many is unknown - by French, Portugues, and Spanish fleets prior to this date. Permanent settlement did take place before this but because England banned permanent residents many people lived further inland and exact dates were not kept. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mercerch (talk • contribs) 13:03, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

In the USA, it is usually Jamestown, Virginia that is claimed as the first permanent English settlement in the New World - this assuming that St. John's was not an officially established town, nor permanently settled prior to Jamestown's 1607 establishment, and that other, failed, attempts, such as the Lost Colony of Roanoke, cannot be reasonably described as permanent. Of course, Jamestown, itself, disappeared after the removal of the capital of Virginia to Williamsburg in 1699. Only below-ground, or excavated, archaeological remains exist today. Bermuda, settled accidently and unofficially (but no less permanently) by the Virginia Company in 1609, is the location of what is claimed to be the oldest continuously-inhabited English settlement in the New World, St. George's, founded in 1612. It may be splitting hairs to distinguish an unincorporated settlement from some sort of officially established municipilaty, but that may be part of what creates the confusion. St. George's is actually claimed, also, to be the first permanent town established by the English in the New World, and not simply the oldest surviving and continuously inhabited. This larger claim is based on the assumption that Jamestown was actually only James Fort, and the proper town did not develop from it until 1619, seven years after the founding of St. George's. Either way, the dates at which Jamestown and Bermuda were settled, and the periods for which their occupation could be said to be continuous are well documented, whereas when an actual town was established at St. John's, when it was officially established or incorporated, and when it's population became permanent are, based on the evidence (that the area of Newfoundland was claimed by or for England in 1583, that the Bay may have been called St. John's in the 1500s, that English fishermen fished off Newfoundland seasonally, and that what was presumably a single-family farm may have been located there, prior to 1607) provided in this article, completely unclear. Given that the majority of external publications that refer to the settlement of the Americas by the English mention Newfoundland as only seasonally inhabited by English fishermen, who made no permanent settlements there, prior to the founding of Jamestown (and make no mention of the town/city of St. John's at all, prior to that date), the assertion that St. John's is the oldest English-founded city in North America seems dubious, unless city is meant to disclude towns, or any other incorporated settlements not officially described as cities (St. George's, Bermuda, is officially a town). If this is the argument being made - that it is the oldest English New World city, rather than incorporated or unincorporated, permanent, continuously-inhabited...shall we say municipality, then that should be made clear by fixing the date of its founding after those of Jamestown and St. George's. Aodhdubh (talk) 22:30, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

Please see the additional discussion under 'Oldest City in Canada', below. The oldest settlement argument is fairly well covered under O'Neil's book, citing both the 1583 and 1607 dates. In the interests of avoiding another edit war on the subject, please provide accurate references to conflicting date arguments. You might also wish to limit the edits to indicating alternative locations for the oldest settlement, and allow the Wikipedia articles for those locations to provide substance for their respective claims.Vulcan's Forge (talk) 21:49, 19 October 2009 (UTC)

There are still claims made in this article about St. John's being the oldest city in North America and having the oldest street in North America that are dubious given that there were Spanish and Native American settlements and cities in North America long before St. John's was even been visited seasonally by European fishermen, let alone permanently settled. These statements should be qualified or removed. Arturoramos (talk) 12:49, 5 January 2012 (UTC)

Having lived in St. Augustine since 2001, my note would be to add that the tour guides here state it this way: We were 'discovered' by Juan Ponce de Leon in 1513. But the city was not actually 'founded' until September 8, 1565 by Pedro Menéndez de Avilés on behalf of King Philip. Locals also 'claim' America's oldest street to be our Calle Aviles (Aviles Street). (See http://www.staugustinegovernment.com/sites/450th%20Main%20Site/450thMain.cfm) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.168.151.27 (talk) 01:17, 25 March 2012 (UTC)

Please do not implicitly or explicitly limit North America to Canada and the United States of North America. Mexico and the caribbean islands are part of North America too, and have significantly older permanent European settlements and streets than Canada and the USA do. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.85.4.178 (talk) 19:52, 16 October 2015 (UTC)

Are the statements not sourced? Newfoundlander&Labradorian (talk)

The claim for St. Augustine as the oldest continuous European settlement in North America is not well-sourced, no. The link is currently broken, but finding it on the Wayback Machine at https://web.archive.org/web/20120112035128/http://tps.cr.nps.gov/nhl/detail.cfm?ResourceId=1028&ResourceType=District shows that it does not say what is claimed. It (correctly) says that St. Augustine "is the oldest continuously occupied European settlement in the continental United States." Santo Dominigo, Dominican Republic was founded in c.1496 and is generally cited as being the oldest continuously settled European city in North America. See, for instance, http://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/santo-domingo and http://latinamericanhistory.about.com/od/historyofthecaribbean/p/santodomingo.htm SumnerH (talk) 19:10, 2 November 2015 (UTC)

Hatnote

@Air.light: nobody would confuse a city in Newfoundland and Labrador with a city in New Brunswick, especially since the title of this article mentions which province this city is in. SSTflyer 05:10, 17 June 2016 (UTC)

With names so similar to each other, there certainly is potential for confusion, even if they're in different provinces. If we remove it won't be without clear consensus from other editors. Air.light (talk) 16:12, 19 June 2016 (UTC)

It is actually something that is confused very often. -DJSasso (talk) 11:30, 29 June 2016 (UTC)

Climate of St. Johns

Vaselineeeeee, St. Johns does have a Sub-Arctic Climate, but it is very mild. I even spoke with the Weather Channel and they said it is a Sub-Arctic climate! AcelaHiker44 (talk) 20:49, 9 December 2016 (UTC)

@AcelaHiker44: Where's the physical source? Vaselineeeeeeee^★★★ 21:05, 9 December 2016 (UTC)

History of Adherence to Canada

I've been told by locals about an election where Newfoundland had to decide between be a nation, be absorved by Canada or USA.

What is that history, and why is not in this article?

In any case, how is that this province become canadian? That should be told in this article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jgomo3 (talk • contribs) 20:49, 19 June 2017 (UTC)

No pictures with snow

I always find it interesting the lack of city pictures with snow. Is it the chamber of commerce who tries to tell the world that its always summer? The article states " 335 centimetres per winter season" so how about swapping out a picture of the city with snow as well for a bit of reality? Just a thought 2620:0:1000:5E01:CCF4:6631:9C69:CEA9 (talk) 17:02, 1 November 2017 (UTC)

I'm not really against this, but pictures of structures and streets that are buried in snow dont offer much encyclopedic value in my opinion. Winter is coming, if I see an opportunity to take a photo of value to this article, worthy of inclusion in a gallery or other feature, I will add it. Shhewitt (talk) 00:23, 2 November 2017 (UTC)

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