|Synagogue has been listed as a level-4 vital article in Philosophy. If you can improve it, please do. This article has been rated as B-Class.|
|WikiProject Judaism||(Rated B-class, Top-importance)|
|WikiProject Religion||(Rated B-class, Top-importance)|
- 1 ALL RHYWUN GYFIETHU'R DUDALEN HON I GYMRAEG?
- 2 Karaite section
- 3 Etymology of "Synagogue"
- 4 1911 Encyclopedia Britannica version
- 5 Greek
- 6 Esnoga
- 7 Masada
- 8 Esnoga
- 9 Altneu shul in Prague
- 10 Divine Presence?
- 11 Where is the information about Synagogues?
- 12 Definition of need for expansion
- 13 A new synagogue and a new record holder?
- 14 Edit
- 15 List of synagogues
- 16 Formatting problem
- 17 Budapest Synagogue
- 18 Messianic synagogues
- 19 The Controversy
- 20 Is Wikipedia a Community or a Police State?
- 21 Synagogue/Συναγωγή
- 22 Blanking image gallery
- 23 Touro Synagogue and end of Revolutionary War
- 24 "Habura"?
- 25 Synagogue is not a replica of the Temple
- 26 Any spanish synagogue?
- 27 Description of "minyan" in the lead
- 28 Plum Street Temple
- 29 Perennial issues
- 30 What are the weekly services called?
- 31 "Jewish synagogue"
- 32 Samaritan Synagogues
- 33 Synagogue, Hekhal, D'bhir
- 34 Should there be mass AfDs of articles about Orthodox synagogues?
ALL RHYWUN GYFIETHU'R DUDALEN HON I GYMRAEG?
Could someone translate this page into Welsh?
The section on Karaite Synagogues only has a picture. If it is not expanded with text, I suggest we remove the section, and just leave the picture interspersed with the others. I've marked it as "expansion necessary." -- Avi 16:00, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
- I agree that there's no obvious need for this section. One could argue about whether Karaism has any place in this article at all. I genuinely don't know if it can still be considered a stream of Judaism, or if it is too 'heretical' because of its rejection of all of the Oral Torah. I'm removiing the section, until someone can both convince me that it has a place and that there is anything to say. Nomist 01:31, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
Well, some people say although they removed the TORAH, it also means that they new a lot about it! In others they say they do not need. It me seem horrible to us. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 18.104.22.168 (talk) 23:41, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
Etymology of "Synagogue"
According to the Online Eymology Dictionary: c.1175, from O.Fr. sinagoge (11c.), from L.L. synagoga "congregation of Jews," from Gk. synagoge "place of assembly, synagogue," lit. "meeting, assembly," from synagein "to gather, assemble," from syn- "together" + agein "bring, lead." Used by Gk. translators of the Old Testament as a loan-translation of late Heb. keneseth "assembly" (cf. beth keneseth "synagogue," lit. "house of assembly.")  Jayjg | (Talk) 16:54, 10 Jan 2005 (UTC)
- I love the Online Etymological Dictionary, but doesn't use diacritics. And it makes a difference. The LL synagoga should be syagōga, but no big deal, it usually wouldn't be written that way anyway - in the same way accents in Russian are only written for learners. But with the Greek it does make a difference. Whether y or u not so much, but since the o and e in this word are infact ω and η it should be transliterated synagōgḗ and he Greek has an accent on the end I believe, like: συναγωγή. I guess if you don't have unicode it could be a problem, but other languages should be given the same consideration we give the French cedilla or German umlaut in my opinion - and unicode is the way of the future (I'm as crazy for Unicode as Wikipedia though!). Also, why is there no Hebrew, like בית כנסת? I suppose I'm in the linguistically fanatical minority of Wikipedia that believes in putting the original language in parenthesis whenever appropriate though! Khirad 02:37, 27 September 2005 (UTC)
Thank you for your suggestion! When you feel an article needs improvement, please feel free to make whatever changes you feel are needed. Wikipedia is a wiki, so anyone can edit almost any article by simply following the Edit this page link at the top. You don't even need to log in! (Although there are some reasons why you might like to…) The Wikipedia community encourages you to be bold. Don't worry too much about making honest mistakes—they're likely to be found and corrected quickly. If you're not sure how editing works, check out how to edit a page, or use the sandbox to try out your editing skills. New contributors are always welcome. Jayjg (talk) 16:43, 27 September 2005 (UTC) Well, why exactly are we talking about parentheses! This is history! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 22.214.171.124 (talk) 23:45, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
1911 Encyclopedia Britannica version
The Spanish & Portuguese synagogue in Amsterdam is known as the Esnoga. Should a disambiguation page for the term "Esnoga" be created? and a page for the Amterdam Synagogue created? (right now "Esnoga" just redirects to the "Synagogue" page). -- Cardozo
- No, there are multiple synagogues referred to as "Esnoga". If you want to write about the Amsterdam Esnoga, please start Amsterdam Portugese Synagogue and redirect Amsterdam Esnoga there. JFW | T@lk 12:59, 27 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I changed the text that read "the small ruined synagogue at Masada is believed to be the world's oldest, and the only one known to date from the time of the Second Temple." This is untrue, as many synagogues have been found which predate the one at Masada, but that is the only one discussed by Josephus (to my knowledge) and so the best known. I think thre were others at Herodium and Gamla which date from the second temple period, but I am not sure. Also, is possible that those of Ostia, Dura Europus, and Stobi date from this period, but not certain. The lesbian 21:30, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)
the term Esnoga is mentioned in Zohar. From Hebrew "Esh Nogah" meaning "fire of splendor" (see Ezechiel) hence the term "synagogue" Moshe 08:07 04 Nov 2005
- The Zohar uses "esnoga" because Moses de Leon spoke Spanish, and that was the Spanish word for a synagogue. Jayjg (talk) 04:36, 7 November 2003 (UTC)
Altneu shul in Prague
The name has no connection to "oldnew" In hebrew "Al tneye" means"on condition". The synagogue was dedicated on condition, that it be a study-hall. So it will have less restrictions than a prayer-hall.Moshe 08:14 04 Nov 2005
- That's very inventive. Nevertheless, Alt-nue means "old-new" in Yiddish, the vernacular of the Jews of Prague. Jayjg (talk) 04:37, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
- Only if it can be tied to a source. The Jewish community in Prague's version is that it was originally called the neu shul when it was built, and got the name altneu after a later synagogue opened. --agr 18:31, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
The article says, "According to tradition, the Divine Presence can be found wherever there is a minyan (a quorum of ten—in Orthodox Judaism, defined as ten Jewish men aged 13 or over)." I'm not sure I like this wording, as it suggests the Divine Presence isn't there if there isn't a minyan. But the Mishnah Pirkei Avot 3:3 says "But when two sit together and words of Torah pass between them, the Divine Presence rests." And the Divine Presence is often referred to as Makom, meaning Omnipresent. It's my understanding that minyan is required to recite certain prayers, but is not required for the Divine Presence to be found. The minyan article quotes Maimonides that the Divine Presence is more likely to listen to a prayer from a community, but doesn't say the Divine Presence isn't there if there is no minyan.
Does anyone know more about this than me? Ferret-aaron 16:09, 18 August 2005 (UTC)
- It appears that when it comes to communal prayers, an edah (ceremonial group) is required. From textual inference, the Talmud defines an edah as consisting of >=10 adult males. I don't think the Divine Presence is a prerequisite, but rather a result. JFW | T@lk 02:25, 19 August 2005 (UTC)
- This isn't my point. The Shechinah (Divine Presence) is believed to be omnipresent, and as I pointed out in the quoted section of Pirkei Avot, the Shechinah is certainly thought to be present if only two people are together. The wording in the article "the Divine Presence can be found" suggests that this isn't the case- that The Shechinah is only present when a minyan gathers. This is a wrong inference, and Jews don't believe that the Shechinah is only present when a minyan gathers. Rather, they believe that God will be more inclined to hear a congregation's prayer if there is a minyan. Ferret-aaron 19:35, 24 October 2005 (UTC)
Where is the information about Synagogues?
I am leaving a complaint about "oka is so smart", the whole article is gone and this sentence is left throughout the article instead. I came to learn about synagogues not to know that some oka is smart! Restore the article.
- This was a case of vandalism, which I fixed. --agr 20:19, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
- I'm not amused as I can still see the article with the words "Oka is so smart".
- I have refreshed the browser and the article came up. Excellent.
- ok, I will be calling in here now and again to check on any form of vandalism. I hate vandalism and I don't find it funny. I shall be checking around.
- You can help by learning how to fix vandalism. Its really quite easy. Click on the history tab and then click on the previous version of the article. It will usually be intact. Then click edit this page. Ignore the warning that you are about to edit an older version of the article, explain what your are doing in the edit summary ("rvv" is a handy abbreviation for revert vandalism) and click save page. --agr 14:07, 9 October 2005 (UTC)
Definition of need for expansion
I identify the areas in which this article needs expansion as:
- History: There is a significant amount missing between the Exile and the development of the kloiz in Eastern Europe. Consider history of Sephardic synagogues in Israel, North Africa, Yemen, India as well.
- Function: This section is geared primarily to North American synagogues. The whole article needs a more international, multi-cultural tone.
- Design: Only the development of Reform temples is fleshed out. Again, information is missing from the period of time between the Exile and 19th century Germany. Yoninah 08:56, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
- Agree to most of this. Please keep in mind, though, the distinction between Sephardi and Mizrahi. (There are very few Sephardi synagogues in India, for instance.) -- Olve 22:34, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
A new synagogue and a new record holder?
I heard that a new synagogue was inaugurated, maybe in Costa Rica, which is presently the greatest synagogue of the world. It is an orthodox synagogue. I haven't found more data about it in Google. I wonder if anyone knows or can find more about it. Adam78 02:50, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
- I doubt this is true. How many Jews are there in Costa Rica? JFW | T@lk 04:05, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
- There is chabad there http://www.chabad.org/centers/default.asp?aid=117814 They also have a website Jabad Lubavitch de Costa Rica --PinchasC | £€åV€ m€ å m€§§åg€ 04:09, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
- The biggest synagogue in the world is probabaly the one recently completed by the Belzer Hasidim in Jerusalem, it seats six thousand people, and then some... photo IZAK 12:08, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
Where do you get the information about Bevis Marks being the oldest continuously functioning synagogue in the world? Amsterdam is older (or is the point that it did not function during the second world war?); and what about the synagogues in Venice? -- Sir Myles na Gopaleen (the da) 14:09, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
Plz remove the edit option.
It seems to me that the section on the Budapest Synagogue, added on May 31, 2006 would be better off in a seperate article. The level of detail on this one synagogue does not belong in the general article.
The section "Traditional and Orthodox synagogues" has all its items bulleted, but I do not see the bullet for the first one of the list (the Ark). Is the picture interfering somehow? Is it just my browswer, or do others see this too? Please fix! Thanx --Keeves 11:32, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
- Okay, I fixed that by moving the picture to the right side. --Keeves 23:37, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
I think the Budapest Synagogue section is long enough to get spun off as a separate article. Anyone agree or disagree? (Also, if we decide to do it, is there are way to keep its history intact, rather than just looking like a brand new article?) --Keeves 23:35, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
Just what I thought, reading the article :) --Serinde 15:14, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
A section on "Messianic synagogues" was added today. I'd love to delete it on the grounds that Messianic Judaism is not a form of Judaism but of Christianity, but it is clear from that article that their members would disagree. So here's my question: Has an official Wikipedia policy been formed on this? Have there been precendents set that we can cite? For example, has someone tried to add a section about Messianic practices to the Passover article? Can anyone offer suggestions? --Keeves 01:53, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
- See WP:NPOV#Undue weight and Messianic Judaism#Jewish objections. Despite the name, "Messianic Judaism is a Christian movement that began in the 1970s combining a mixture of Jewish ritual and Christianity." . ←Humus sapiens ну? 08:01, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
- Thanks. I saw Messianic Judaism#Jewish objections, but I felt that it is pretty much balanced out by Messianic Judaism#Christian objections, which says that they're not Christian. That simple solution is that they are neither Jewish nor Christian. Thanks also for the reference to WP:NPOV#Undue weight, which would strongly support the suggestion which I will now make: This information about Messianic synagogues should not appear in this article, but it can appear in its own article, and have a link from here to it. In other words, those who want this information to appear in Wikipedia are free to start a new article titled Messianic synagogues, and then to come back to this article (which is about Jewish synagogues only) and add a link to it in the "See Also" section. --Keeves 13:24, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
- The past 30 edits have consisted of nothing but the insertion and deletion of This listing does not include those synagogues of alternative movements in Judaism., with (as far as I can tell) absolutely no substantive eplanation of what the objection is to including it. To me, it sure sounds very similar to the suggestion I made above. I've been patiently sitting here on the sidelines watching the others go back and forth, and I really do not understand what is going on. I am tempted to edit the article myself, but I fear that whatever I do will get undone. Is anyone interested in a mature discussion of the pros and cons? --Keeves 12:45, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
- It seems that the link (and earlier, a picture) is being inserted here to promote a fringe movement that, according to Judaic tradition and authorities, is outside of Judaism and therefore the definition does not apply. See WP:NPOV#Undue weight and Messianic Judaism#Jewish objections. ←Humus sapiens ну? 22:00, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
- Yes, indeed, we definitely should see what it says at WP:NPOV#Undue weight. Here's an excerpt:
Articles that compare views need not give minority views as much or as detailed a description as more popular views, and may not include tiny-minority views at all (by example, the article on the Earth only very briefly refers to the Flat Earth theory, a view of a distinct minority).
- Yes, indeed, we definitely should see what it says at WP:NPOV#Undue weight. Here's an excerpt:
- Please note that were are not advised to ignore the Flat Earth Society entirely. Rather, it suffices that they are given less attention than the mainstream views. I believe that this is exactly what we currently have here, by giving a mere one-sentence reference and a link to where more information is available. To deny inclusion of even that one line would go against the very source that Humus refers to.--Keeves 01:01, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
- Wrong quote. Here is a relevant one:
If a viewpoint is held by an extremely small (or vastly limited) minority, it does not belong in Wikipedia (except perhaps in some ancillary article) regardless of whether it is true or not; and regardless of whether you can prove it or not.
In other words, views held only by a tiny minority of people should not be represented as though they are significant minority views, and perhaps should not be represented at all.
- Except that it is your opinion that the Messianics are outside of Judaism. Actually, it is my opinion too, except that I also place reform and conservative outside of Judiasm. If we were in some explicitly Jewish forum, we could continue discussing that point, but in an NPOV place such as Wikipedia, I really can't see any legitimate reason to exclude a tiny one-line reference to another article. I really think the time has come to get other Wikipedia administrators involved in this dispute, to get some kind of official ruling on it. --Keeves 13:29, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
- Yes, and it is also not to you to define Judaism. But by refusing to allow this reference, which is explicitly about non-mainstream views, aren't you trying to define Judaism for all Wikipedians? --Keeves 20:18, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
I will re-list the Messianic Synogogues for the time being and attach a Note that says the validity of this section of the article being displayed is under debate, until we have it solved whether or not it belongs. Messianic Judaism is Torah-based religion and has a majority of ethnically Jewish practitioners, thus there is no reason to have it removed (at least, not without a conclusive debate). With over 200 synagogues, the movement is just too big to treat as if it were non-existant. Thank you.
Also, before my edits Reconstructionist Judaism synagogues only had one sentence! I expanded it to a paragraph, so hopefully that can even begin to give readers an idea.
- To the vast majority of Jews, "Messianic Judaism is Torah-based religion" the same way that Christianity and Islam are Torah-based religions. That is, they do place a certain amount of value in the Torah, but then they add and detract in such a manner as to make a new religion of it. How about this idea: At the top of the article, we'll have a disambiguate section: This article is about synagogues in mainstream Judaism. For synagogues in Messianic Judaism, see Synagogue (Messianic). --Keeves 13:24, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
- That will be relatively suffiecient if you add a disambiguate section saying that this article is about mainstream synogogues, thanks Keeves. And no, it isn't "Torah-based as Christianity and Islam are". Chrsitianity explicitly denies Torah and Hebrew traditions as a relic of the past, and Islam is Quran-based (a book that states the Bible has been changed by men past recognition, despite the fact that the Torah codes and Dead Sea Scrolls completely show otherwise). Messianic Judaism, on the other hand, is majority ethnic Jewish, with most members: keeping Kosher, observing Jewish holidays such as Yom Kippur, Chanukkah, and Rosh HaShannah, use the Talmud, and hold Torah readings mainly in Hebrew. How many Reform and Reconstructionist Jews can even say these things of themselves? Calling Messianic Judaism non-Judaism or Christianity isn't a satisfactory explanation for it; I consider it "running for the hills".
Is Wikipedia a Community or a Police State?
Tell me why you reverse my edits before actually doing it, and that includes any other Joe as much as it includes PinchasC. That will let me AT LEAST know that that you know what I changed before removing it. Of course, you'll probably never respond to this message, because that may require actually changing your mind about something.
Zorkfan 00:32, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
- See WP:NOT and please reread what I wrote about WP:NPOV#Undue weight above. ←Humus sapiens ну? 01:16, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
When and if an article on Messianic synagogues is created, the edit Keeves suggested up should suffice. To expand on what Humus mentioned, there's no reason we would put a statement like "the list below doesn't include Baptist Churches" either. And you threw in Jewish Renewal, but since it's more of a movement that isn't even always separate from the mainline denominations it doesn't make sense to say "the synagogues below don't include Jewish Renewal". --MPerel ( talk | contrib) 01:42, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
Since Hebrew is an ancient language, I'm guessing as old as if not older than Greek, why use a greek word and not a hebrew one? I've always wondered that and was hoping to find a paragraph in this article explaining how a greek word was adopted. Does it have anything to do with the large population of Jews in Alexandria where Greek was the predominant language? --Kimonandreou 13:42, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
- I think that quite possibly synagogues may have developed initially to a significant extent among Greek-speaking Jews, of whom there were enough even in Jerusalem that the inscription of the synagogue in Jerusalem that (very likely) predates the destruction of the second temple is in Greek. All of the oldest written references to synagogues are in Greek. However, I have not found any explanation regarding why this might be the case this in reliable (scholarly) sources, so I think your question cannot be answered in the Wikipedia article. Jjgw (talk) 17:30, 19 June 2012 (UTC)
Blanking image gallery
I am questioning this blanking. The edit summary says: "Wikipedia is not an image gallery with no text to accompany them; upload your pictures to Wikimedia Commons)". Why was this done without any discussion? What's wrong with illustrating history and architecture of famous synagogues, including "text to accompany"? Compare with Moscow and many other articles that have image galleries. ←Humus sapiens ну? 01:25, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
Touro Synagogue and end of Revolutionary War
I am questioning the statement that Washington ended the war in 1787 at this site. The war ended in 1783. Washington took the surrender of British forces in Yorktown in 1781. Mfletcher1 03:07, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
On what grounds is חבורה transliterated chabura instead of chavura? I've never heard the former pronunciation, nor can I think of any grammatical justification for it. Flourdustedhazzn 18:54, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
- Egyptian Jews as well as a few other communities don't differentiate between beth and veth. It's possible that it was transliterated by someone from such a tradition...or it's possible that it was transliterated by someone who is insufficiently familiar with spoken Hebrew to have realized their mistake. Tomertalk 23:26, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
Synagogue is not a replica of the Temple
I have replaced this section.
- Orthodox Judaism has considered synagogue construction over the last two thousand years as following the outlines of the original Tabernacle, which was also the outline for the temples in Jerusalem.
Synagogues are not replicas of the temple or tabernacle. There is no source for this and it does not happen in practice. It is a myth. 126.96.36.199 05:59, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
Any spanish synagogue?
Why there is not in the article any spanish synagogue? Samuel ha Levi's synagogue was built in 1356; synagogue of Santa María la Blanca was built in 1180 and modified in XIII century; Cordoba's synagogue was built in 1315. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.8.131.52 (talk) 07:16, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
Description of "minyan" in the lead
The lead describes a minyan as simply "ten jews". I know the subtleties are covered in the article for minyan, but based on what I read there, is this a case of oversimplifying something to the point where it's a bit misleading? How about something like:
"Jewish worshop can take place anywhere, although a 'minyan' of ten Jews (traditionally but not always adult men) is required for some rituals."
Plum Street Temple
Perhaps the Plum Street Temple in Cincinnati would be a good addition to the Reform Synagogue section. It is both a very historical and beautiful Synagogue. Maybe just a picture would do. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.108.40.206 (talk) 17:31, 14 June 2009 (UTC)
I just did a major clean-up of the page, which suffers from the impulse to clutter usually caused by those adding true but trial=vial facts, or disquisitions on some aspect of synagogue life such as detailed explications of customs of chasidim, reform, Sephardim, etc. , or material about theology, development of the reform movement, etc., which would be better added to articles on specific topics that can be linked here.
- I also tried to select photos that will show the antiquity of the synagogue, the range of synagogue styles, and the way the interior of the synagogue looks to those who are unfamiliar. What wikipedia really needs are many good photo os synagogues added to articles such as Bimah and to articles on individual synagogues or to Jewish ceremonial art, or to particular styles of synagogue art and architecture. We could use, for example, articles on Synagogue wall paintings, Synagogue menorahs. And on the synagogues of particular styles or regions in the manner of the article on Wooden synagogues. Not everything we know about synagogues needs to find a spot on this page. Better to have more information on a wode net of articles.Historicist (talk) 19:00, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
What are the weekly services called?
- In English, one might say "I'm going to services" or "I'm going to Shul" (equivalent to "I'm going to Church.") For the names of the different services see Jewish prayer.--agr (talk) 19:30, 19 June 2012 (UTC)
This may seem a bit trivial, but if the Delos Synagogue is a Samaritan one surely it should not be listed in the list of 'oldest synagogues' as Samritanism is clearly not Judaism - just as Messianic Judaism isn't Judaism, but it is a related religion sharing many features.--Grammarbishop8 (talk) 12:31, 23 July 2012 (UTC) Nah... forget what I said. --Grammarbishop8 (talk) 13:55, 3 November 2012 (UTC)
Synagogue, Hekhal, D'bhir
I erased the following from the lead: [Synagogues have a large hall for prayer (the main sanctuary)] "called "Hekhal" from which is derived the term 'Hykala'. Beyond this is the D'bhir or holy of holies (from which is derived the term "M'dbha")" attributed to Stinespring W. F. (1962) 'Temple, Jerusalem' in 'The interpreters Dictionary of the Bible' vol 4 p 536. For one, this distinction is unclear. It seems to claim these are two separate rooms, which they are not. Actually the sanctuary has an Ark which is a sort of cabinet, not a room. Second, this sentence was unsuited to the lead (what is a Hykala or a M'dbha?).Third, the body of the article (->Interior Elements) was much better and more accurate on this point and quite sufficient. Yabti (talk) 15:25, 8 November 2012 (UTC)
Should there be mass AfDs of articles about Orthodox synagogues?
- Request for Comment: An RfC that concerns this article has been opened. Please see Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Judaism#RfC: Should there be mass AfDs of articles about Orthodox synagogues?. Thank you, IZAK (talk) 04:32, 13 July 2014 (UTC)