Talk:Triumph Bonneville T140

Special Category for British Motorcycles

As part of the Motorcycling WikProject I am working though all the missing articles and stubs for British Bikes. To make things easier to sort out there is a special Category:British motorcycles Please add to any British motorcycle pages you find or create. It will also help to keep things organised if you use the Template:Infobox Motorcycle or add it where it is missing. I've linked the Category to the Commons Motorcycles of Britain so you could help with matching pics to articles or adding the missing images to the Commons. The people behind the bikes also bring it all to life - I've created the Category:British motorcycle pioneers so please have a look and see if you can add or expand any? Thanks Thruxton (talk) 17:37, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

T140RV

I have seen some recent edits and reversions in this section and hope that I can help. I own and restored the T140E in the infobox and have also owned a T140V and T100 Daytona (500 unit twin), more importantly I have many reliable sources on the Meriden twins. The T140RV is not covered by most of them but probably the best one is:

Nelson, John (2001). Bonnie - The Development History of the Triumph Bonneville. Haynes Publishing. ISBN 0-85429-957-2.

John Nelson was Triumph's service manager for many years, what he recorded I think we should take as near to the facts as you can get. The T140RV section as it stands does not appear to be correct, there were varying engine displacements as I've seen added and removed recently. Produced for the 1974/75 model years they were apparently all built with right hand gear change (the first left hand change T140 engine was built by Triumph in July 1975 according to Nelson. There is no mention of engine modifications especially for the US market. There was also a home (UK) version of the T140RV, currently not mentioned.

I can revise the section (keeping it to an encyclopaedic level of detail) but would have to replace the current source used there. Cheers Nimbus (Cumulus nimbus floats by) 20:42, 27 March 2011 (UTC)

I have read the Nelson book (wish I still had it!). It definitely meets the reliable source criteria as far as I am concerned. --Biker Biker (talk) 21:07, 27 March 2011 (UTC)

Strangely, two very good American book sources that I have don't appear to mention it at all, one is a guide to restoring T140s to show standard (originality and all that). It won't be quick but I will get round to it soon. The whole article is a bit 'listy', needs some history prose added in places, might be able to help with that as well. Nimbus (Cumulus nimbus floats by) 21:25, 27 March 2011 (UTC)

Nice one. Look forward to it. --Biker Biker (talk) 22:39, 27 March 2011 (UTC)

I just had a glance through and notice the article is using templates for cites, I will struggle with that. Per WP:CITEVAR they should be left but the date format is American (this is clearly an article with strong British ties). The format can be changed if there is a good reason. I suspect that some of the sources would not be deemed 'reliable' by WP standards, I could replace all of them with book references. The 'Bonneville name' section has whole sentences taken verbatim from a source, should be removed or modified quickly to comply with WP:COPYVIO.

I'm wondering whether it is necessary to repeat the name 'Bonneville' in every section header? The bikes are listed chronologically which is good and logical, it would be nice to make that clearer somehow by using date or era headers to break the list up? Just some random thoughts on improving this article. Nimbus (Cumulus nimbus floats by) 19:48, 28 March 2011 (UTC)

Section headings - fixed. References, shout if you need help, but citing books is really easy - just put the book details in the references section at the bottom, and in the body of the text do something like <ref>Nelson, p.47</ref> or <ref>Nelson, pp.49-52</ref>. Copyvio - please fix asap if you can. --Biker Biker (talk) 00:00, 29 March 2011 (UTC)

Looks better, thanks. I'm away for a couple of days so won't be able to anything. I'm quite happy with the other form of referencing (see Rolls-Royce Merlin and Rolls-Royce R), just didn't want to change from the template format unless there was consensus, there have been ANIs raised on this subject recently in the aircraft project. I think the 'Bonneville name' section is too long with unnecessary detail, trimming it would remove the copyvios. While I remember, and just as a note really, the article assumes that we know all about the T120, that can be fixed. I have more photos and can take some more for Commons (different angles, close up of the engine etc.). There was a closely related economy 650 version produced in the 1980s, might have been a single carb 'Tiger' though, can't remember (just remembered it was a 'Thunderbird'!). Another thing I'd like to do is produce a navbox, possibly for all the Triumph bikes including the modern ones. Lots to do!! Cheers. Nimbus (Cumulus nimbus floats by) 08:17, 29 March 2011 (UTC)

I'm having no success in trying to find any mention of a T140RV in any original period reference material, I'm sure I saw one on ebay once, but being sure and knowing are two different things. Could the whole T140RV thing be an urban myth? --TriumphTR7RV (talk) 22:25, 19 April 2011 (UTC)

No, the T140RV exists as it is documented by John Nelson. Probably had minor differences from the UK T140V, side reflectors in front of the fuel tank, push-pull throttle cable system and a right dip headlight (RV usually meant general export). If you are really curious I would recommend joining the Triumph Owners Motorcycle Club, I surrendered after some years through the weight of information coming through my letterbox, couldn't take it all in!! They have a club librarian who can tell you everything. Nimbus (Cumulus nimbus floats by) 22:58, 19 April 2011 (UTC)

Ah yes the side reflectors, I keep meaning to pick up a pair of those for my Tiger, just for the added safety aspect. The US export models also had the 3 gallon 'peanut' tank as opposed to the UK 4 gallon 'bread bin' tank. I know what you mean about joining the Triumph owners club, I may have to surrender to joining the club this year too. I'm not entirely sure about RV usually meaning general export and how that would sit with the TR7RV model. The search continues... --TriumphTR7RV (talk) 19:23, 20 April 2011 (UTC)

I've had a go at improving things, hope everything is agreeable so far. Will chip away at it this week. Nimbus (Cumulus nimbus floats by) 21:24, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

Done a little bit more, I've noticed a fairly large omission, reference to the Triumph TR7 Tiger (a single carb T140) is missing and we have no article on it (it could be covered here quite easily). Something else that strikes me as strange is that this bike is virtually always known in references as the 'Triumph T140 Bonneville' (not Triumph Bonneville T140), there is an apparent mixture in Category:Triumph motorcycles of how the articles are named.Nimbus (Cumulus nimbus floats by) 00:18, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

I've done a bit more researching and have got a lot of reference material which should hopefully help clear up the history of the T140RV, this quote from an article by Charles Deane in the March 1973 edition of motorcycle mechanics.

Part of this rationalisation in the range was the introduction of the 750 Bonneville twin, which, although originally intended for 'export only', caused so much interest among visitors to the two recent motorcycle shows, that Triumph decided to put the bike on the home market.

I've got scans of several pages from 1972 and 1973 regarding the 5 speed 650/750 triumphs should I just upload them? TiumphTR7RV (talk) 20:48, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

There was a T120R which was the roadster model code used for the US market and when it got five gears it became T120RV. This is all known recorded history. However, there never was nor was recorded anywhere a T140R just a T140V as it had five gears as standard from the outset. I agree that the Triumph TR7V Tiger derserves a page all of it's own as it was the main institutional export for Meriden and was available as the Tiger Trail TR7T, electric starting TR7VS and anti-vibration TR7AV models (mostly in police spec with one Executive spec). The Triumph Tiger TR6R would also need a section with the TR6C Trophy model which also came with 5 gears as the TR6RV and rarer TR6CV. 213.123.135.235 (talk) 21:44, 25 May 2011 (UTC)

Old Info Available

The 1972 advertisments for the 750 (export only) TR7/T140 are now on flickr, can someone else take a look at these and start to update the page here regarding the information contained in them as I don't really feel experienced enough with updating yet not to make a complete mess of it all:).

the links are

Triumph ad Dec 1972 http://www.flickr.com/photos/61574084@N07/5605090544/

for the introduction of the 5 speed gearbox there is this one although its only for the 650's Triumph ad Jul 1972 http://www.flickr.com/photos/61574084@N07/5605090618/

For the other articles from MCM i will post page numbers and references instead of posting scans as they are probably still under copyright, where as i feel these ads in the mag are fair use to use to help define the history of these triumphs. TriumphTR7RV (talk) 03:57, 10 April 2011 (UTC)

Posted some new old images, the t140v was being advertised in motorcycle mechanics as the T140V in april 1973 for the grand price of 679 uk pounds:) name=http://www.flickr.com/photos/61574084@N07/5617284541/in/photostream. I have started updating the wikipedia entry, will carry on digging for more info, it would be good if someone could fine any USA adverts for the T140 from this era. --TriumphTR7RV (talk) 00:28, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

We can not use images from Flickr or elsewhere as a reference citation, not my rules and I can very clearly see that they are original Triumph adverts and the information is good but see WP:RS.Nimbus (Cumulus nimbus floats by) 00:46, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

I asked on wikipedia commons forum about using these images and they said I should post them on flickr and that I could probabbly use them under the fair use clause.

--TriumphTR7RV (talk) 00:56, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

licences on the images on flickr are ok for use according to the wikipedia commons guidelines, they should be ok I guess, meanwhile enjoy the nostaligia of looking at an original advertisment from 39 years ago. --TriumphTR7RV (talk) 01:09, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

You can upload the images but they can not be used as reference citations in the article.Nimbus (Cumulus nimbus floats by) 16:59, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

Maybe I should up load them to the fair use exemption rules to the english wiki site, it states the following

In general, non-free content uploaded under the Exemption Doctrine should be used only when the specific image itself is significant to the article, not merely what it depicts. The image must be not replaceable by a free content alternative that depicts the same thing.

I personally think the images in those ads are significant to this article and perhaps many other articles relating to Triumph Motorcylcles from this historically very important period in British Motorcyle history . What do you think? btw the magazine these were published in went bust many years ago--TriumphTR7RV (talk) 23:44, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

Break

I would think that they are copyright protected and may get deleted after upload unless they were licensed correctly. Can you tell us here (on this talk page) what the main differences between the T140V and T140RV were according to Motorcycle Mechanics? We can use the magazine as a citation reference, I just hope it doesn't conflict with the other references!! I have found a reference to a higher compression ratio for the 'RV' (8.6 instead of 7.9) and another minor difference of a doubled throttle cable (positive closing regulation?). Another little mystery is that the T140J 'Jubilee' model is described by John Nelson as the 'T140V Bonneville 140 Jubilee model', i.e. not a 'J'?!!

My Triumph mechanic confirmed to me today that it had the designation of T140J and not T140V or T140RJ, while not proof per definition, it does cast further doubt on John Nelson's use of the T140V id for the jubilee model. I'll keep my eyes open on ebay for any engine numbers the next time (if) a jubilee comes up for sale. TriumphTR7RV (talk) 22:44, 7 April 2011 (UTC)

Slightly worried that the level of detail in this article could become unencyclopaedic if much more is added but we should at least make sure that what is here is as accurate as possible and I've been working on that. Cheers Nimbus (Cumulus nimbus floats by) 21:14, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

There is no need to upload scans of magazine articles - if you have the magazine title, publication date (and/or volume & issue number), page number, author etc. then that is good enough for a citation. Citations don't need to be uploadable, just verifiable - so with those details anyone who has access to a magazine's back catalogue (perhaps through a public library) could easily verify the contents. --Biker Biker (talk) 00:45, 6 April 2011 (UTC)

I'll check with some people in the know about the Jubilee version, I saw one on ebay a while back, should have taken a copy of the engine/frame number. Calling it the T140VJ may have been a solution but then again VJ day has diferent meanings, especially when marketing your product against japaneese motorcycles. As regarding the difference between the 73 T140RV and the T140V, I can't find any reference to support the existence of a T140V in 1973. I need to do more research to find out, I have seen somewhere that the T140V was originally the same as the T120V but with a 727cc engine, I have a feeling it's on the '100 years of triumph dvd' which I'll have to get back from the triumph mechanic I lent it too. I've got a great scan from motorcycle mechanincs DEC 1972 showing Triumphs advertisment for the upcoming january 1973 earls court motor cycle show, I may try and place that under the fair usage doctrine. TiumphTR7RV (talk) 20:11, 6 April 2011 (UTC) I've created a new acount with the correct spelling of Triumph, did'nt want to have that Tiumph account kind of sounded like i had a jonathen ross R:) — Preceding unsigned comment added by TriumphTR7RV (talk • contribs) 21:20, 6 April 2011 (UTC)

I did spot a Washington USA based T140V AH (A = January, H= 1973) on ebay today so I'm not going mad I hope, I also asked my Triumph mechanic today about the early 750's and if there were any T140V's made or if they were all RV's, funnily enough he thought they only made the V version in '73, but I told him I'd seen one on ebay with the engine number T140RV DH (D = April, H= 1973), He was not entirly sure, but he did say that the early 73 T140's he'd worked on all had a capacity of 724cc. This is indeed a puzzle that is not going to be easy to solve, keep digging I guess. TriumphTR7RV (talk) 22:34, 7 April 2011 (UTC)

Good stuff, according to Nelson the 724cc engines were from JH to XH, produced as both T140V and T140RV, I'm still not quite sure what the 'R' means but going back to 1961 the 'R' meant 'Road model' for the US T120 and later it stood for 'Road sports'. I've got all the factory manuals and parts catalogues on CD and original hard copies of the T140 owner's and workshop manual but I can't find any of them at the moment!! The Flickr images are useful but we can't use them to cite anything (strange but true), I've been down that road at WT:RS before. The T140V was produced and sold in England, again according to Nelson, from 1973 to 1978 when it was replaced by the 'E'. My T140V was a 1977 model with (presumably left over) Jubilee engine cases as they were chrome plated. Nimbus (Cumulus nimbus floats by) 20:11, 10 April 2011 (UTC)

The filckr image of the dec '72 triumph advertisment does establish one important fact, the 750's were originally intended for export only, a citation to the Triumph advertisment in motor cycle mechanics magazine for that issue is safe. I think Nelsons claim that 724cc engines were from JH to XH is extremely dubious given that the meridian workers went on strike from september 1973 onwards and thus the chance of there being triumphs with the stamps KH NH PH XH are practically impossible (J=Aug,K=sept,N=Oct,P=Nov,X=Dec). My march 73 tiger TR7RV is a 744cc so I'm thinking they must have switched to the larger bore for the t140s at the same time, i.e only T140V AH,T140V BH and perhaps some early T140V CH will exist for 1973, and the rest up until august 1973 will be T140RV's?. The search continues TriumphTR7RV (talk) 00:16, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

Just spotted a US based '73 bonnie on ebay with the engine number T140VXH, how can these exist while the meridian factory was on strike during this period? --TriumphTR7RV (talk) 19:43, 20 April 2011 (UTC)

The Meriden industrial action is described in sources as a 'sit-in' as opposed to a strike, it's not well covered on WP and I don't know an awful lot about it either but I think there is a subtle difference between the two terms. The workers apparently continued limited production during their occupation of the factory, possibly for something to do and to raise some money to live on as is mentioned here (see T120V section). It's information that should be covered better in the Triumph and Norton Villiers Triumph articles but it did directly affect T140 production so deserves a mention here as well. The factory site is now a housing estate (the roads are named after the bike models though in a nice touch), thousands of bikes rode through the estate during the centenary event with many residents waving flags. I was lucky enough to be part of it, my Bonneville (and many others) was not so happy as it was a very hot day and we were riding at walking pace, smoke was coming out of the T150/T160 Tridents and their clutches fried!!

Slightly OT but it demonstrates the marginal air-cooling, a Triumph employee (designer?), Norman Hyde, set up his own business selling after-market improved parts for the T140/T150/T160 which includes oil coolers, he is still in business (or I think his son is continuing it). He can't really be mentioned here and we can't provide an external link to his company website either because it is commercial.

The designation system defies logic at times to me! How do we know which T140Es were built in true US spec (reflectors and no fork gaiters etc) for instance?! I've seen the 'R' described as standing for 'Road' or 'Road Sports' on other contemporary models, and 'RV' described by Nelson as 'General export'. I'm now seeing photos in his book of the 'Home version of the T140RV' with side reflectors and it looks like all the T140Ds with small tanks had them! The only country difference for that model should then be the dip direction of the headlight. It's a quaint historical mystery and I don't think we should spend too much time trying to decipher it and record it here but we can certainly research it privately if we want to. I have to admit to covering it at Yamaha RD500LC#Models by country but hopefully kept it short and sweet, the number system that Yamaha used is much more specific (52X, 1GE etc) and leaves little room for confusion. Still haven't found my official T140 manuals!! Nimbus (Cumulus nimbus floats by) 10:20, 21 April 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for the extended explaination on the engine numbers from the period of the meridian sit in. I'm begining to understand the difference between being encyclopedic and over excessive on details. It's fun being part of this project. I was just checking an original triumph advert from april 1973 in motor cycle mechanincs, there it lists the t120V as a 5 speed bonnie (price 545 pounds) and a t120R as a 4 speed bonnie (price 519 pounds), so I think it's safe to assume the original distinction was purely based on the gearbox. I love those old ads:) --TriumphTR7RV (talk) 00:48, 22 April 2011 (UTC)

Article balance, The technical problems vs good bits!

I think we have a very factual article now but it is quite 'dry' perhaps. It doesn't say that it is good or that it is bad either (my T140 is both at the same time!). Excuse me for jotting some reminders but I can think of a lot of negative points, some have briefly been covered already, some might not be able to be referenced:

• Oil leaks
• Electrical problems (switchgear, complete failures, bulb failures caused by vibration).
• Vibration (it's the only bike I know that can move backwards on the centre stand!).
• Blowing exhaust downpipes (push-in type, later redesigned back to the earlier type).
• Lack of ground clearance (later bikes modified with raised footrests and exhausts).
• Sticking clutch (must be cleared by holding the clutch in and kicking over until free).
• Modern operation on unleaded fuel (pinking)
• Broken rear wheel spokes.

Good bits:

• Fairly sure that it was voted 1978 or 79 Motor Cycle News 'Machine of the year', must be able to find a cite for that somewhere.

Nimbus (Cumulus nimbus floats by) 23:26, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

It's so good to have passionate and knowledgable people working on Wikipedia:WikiProject Motorcycling. Perhaps you and TiumphTR7RV should join the project and take a look at some of our other articles. --Biker Biker (talk) 23:40, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

Cheers, I am a member of the project but I've been concentrating on aircraft and their engines for the last couple of years. I can certainly help with the Meriden Triumph articles. There is one photo of a TR7 Tiger on Commons, I'm not sure if the type can have its own article as it really was just a single carburettor T140 but we do have the Triumph Tiger Trail. The navbox would be really useful, perhaps we should discuss how to build it on the project talk page. I've created many navboxes so I'm happy with the formatting. Nimbus (Cumulus nimbus floats by) 09:56, 6 April 2011 (UTC)

The Triumph Tiger TR7 should have it's own page I guess, the reason being that the TR range of triumphs have different origins, perhaps they came together in the end with the T120/TR6 but essentially they have different roots. TriumphTR7RV (talk) 21:24, 6 April 2011 (UTC)

Regarding the The technical problems vs good bits, the march 73 article in motor cycle mechanincs (MCM) talks about the pro's and con's of the 750 twin and i quote...

Handeling and breaking are its best feature and must earn an excellent nine out of 10!

One of the marvellous things about our test machine was that as far as I can remember it is the first time we've had a British bike on test which didn't show a trace of oil on the outside of the engine at the end of the test!

TriumphTR7RV (talk) 21:59, 6 April 2011 (UTC)

1979 T140EDA ?

Just spotted this on ebay

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1979-Triumph-Bonneville-750-/220768715045?pt=US_motorcycles&hash=item3366d74125

The VIN number is stated as T140EDA nnnnn

an electric start special perhaps? any ideas— Preceding unsigned comment added by TriumphTR7RV (talk • contribs) 01:28, 14 April 2011 (UTC) I've sent the seller a message if he could post a picture of the engine number. --TriumphTR7RV (talk) 01:41, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

Just realised it's a T140E and the DAnnnnn is the stamp for the model month/year I guess, but that makes no sense for triumphs previous dating system.--TriumphTR7RV (talk) 06:01, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

The frame numbering system changed about that time, mine is 'KDA'. This site helps explain, frame and engine numbers would be too much info for the article I think, bordering on WP:NOTGUIDE. Nimbus (Cumulus nimbus floats by) 17:08, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

I should have checked my triumph parts manual, it explains it in there to :) Perhaps one small thumbnail picture of an original triumph stamp next to each different model type would be a nice addition, it would enable visitors to see what an original stamp looks like. I was amazed at how many fake stamps there are out there on ebay triumphs (stolen bikes perhaps). The guy on ebay replied to my request for him to post a close up image of the engine number on his ebay auction page. Your thoughts on this idea are much appreciated. --TriumphTR7RV (talk) 00:17, 15 April 2011 (UTC)

I don't know of any WP motorcycle article that goes into detail on frame and engine numbers, I think it would be considered excessive detail and unencylopedic. The model sections are quite short at the moment and they are struggling to carry just one image. If any photos are added in the future they should be of the 'visible from a distance' differences, an example would be the different carburettors and side panels of the T140E compared to the 'V'. The difference in the engine number stamp is just the 'E' and 'V' with the addition of many small 'Triumph' stamps to discourage tampering on later bikes.

The engine number would have the model name and date code on different levels. For example, T140E

                                                                                           DA12345

That way, the reader can ditinguish between the two codes. Electric start models would be T140ES: E still stood for emissions compliant and S for the starter motor. TR7VS and TR65S were similarly suffixed.213.123.135.235 (talk) 21:44, 25 May 2011 (UTC)

SAINT 750

There is another model missing, the '750 Saint', a police spec T140. I don't have much on it but it appears to be a T140V with a fairing and all the usual police gear. Nimbus (Cumulus nimbus floats by) 06:58, 15 April 2011 (UTC)

I've not heard of the '750 Saint', but one interesting thing I heard about british police bikes is that they had to use analogue speedometers, i.e real clocks with gears, as opposed to the magnetic types being manufactured by smiths, something about a judicial process regarding them issuing speeding fines based on their spedometer reading, I'll see if i can get some more info on the 'saint'. I also seem to remember reading somewhere that the british Automobile Association used t140 triumphs kitted out in bright yellow fairing, but I'm not 100% sure on that. The research continues.... --TriumphTR7RV (talk) 22:35, 15 April 2011 (UTC)

I don't doubt that the AA used them, probably with sidecars as well. A reliable book reference says that the 'Saint' name came from 'Stops Anything In No Time', named by a Triumph designer apparently but sounds like mythology to me! The equivalent version of the T160 Trident was called the 'Cardinal' if I remember correctly. Nimbus (Cumulus nimbus floats by) 19:25, 16 April 2011 (UTC)

The 750 SAINT was based on a TR7V (see Roy Bacon's Triumph T140 Bonneville & Derivatives (1973-88) book) not a Bonnie. The TR7V was also the bike used by the AA. The later Bonneville police bikes were T140AV and were all, with the exception of one, T140ES engines. TR7V police models were exported to Nigeria and TR7VS to Ghana (see John Rosamond's book Save the Triumph Bonneville !) 213.123.135.235 (talk) 21:44, 25 May 2011 (UTC)

Media section needs to go

See WP:TRIVIA and Wikipedia:"In popular culture" content . Sections of miscellaneous media cameos or "pop culture" content are discouraged, and the contents should be reorganized in a meaningful way. They tend to collect uncited cruft with no indication of its importance, as is the case with the current article.

Media appearances which are well cited in third party sources, and which give some indication as to why they mattered should be moved up into the body of the article, or otherwise placed in an appropriate section. Uncited material should be deleted. Third party cited material which merely tells us the bike made a media appearance but doesn't tell us that it was important in some way should be deleted too.

WP:WPACT says "mention of pop-culture references should be strictly limited to cases where the fact of that reference influenced the sales, design or other tangible aspect of the vehicle," though actual policies and guidelines are not quite so strict. But some kind influence or significance is needed. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 16:42, 21 April 2012 (UTC)

We had a similar problem in the aircraft project which resulted in a single article (Aircraft in fiction) being created where the cruft, notability and referencing could be watched closely. 'Pop culture' sections were largely removed from individual aircraft type articles with a main article link being left behind (like this). It works very well. Cheers. Nimbus (Cumulus nimbus floats by) 18:56, 21 April 2012 (UTC)

I guess I don't see much difference between uncited cruft spread among many articles or concentrated in one article. If it's original research, it belongs nowhere. If good third party sources exist, then finding which article to put it in is relatively easy. If third party sources consider a media appearance to be significant, then it really belongs in the article about the vehicle. Just not in a catch-all section. The main issue is when a title is read as an invitation for drive-by additions of each and every media cameo, without regard for sources. If the title of the article or section is well-defined, then the contents under that title are finite, not open-ended. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 19:19, 21 April 2012 (UTC)

I wasn't involved in creating that article or even watch it but I do know that the opportunity was taken to either remove uncited cruft or assess its notability and add a reliable source, with almost 390 cites there I think it's working. It was a very necessary agreed step for the aircraft project as the sections were getting out of hand, may be not so for motorcycles yet. Agree that the section in this article needs fixing. Nimbus (Cumulus nimbus floats by) 20:13, 21 April 2012 (UTC)

T140E

The T140E did not use a new cylinder head as stated in the article. It just jused the Tiger head, thereby standardisizing this casting for both models in production. The head was fitted with separate pressed in inlet stubs to accomodate the rubber-fit Amal MkII carburettors rather than the screw-on Mk1s previously used. This was detrimental to the power of the engine, which was stated as 43HP rather than 48 or 49 HP as before with the splayed port head. The T140E also had new and extremely restrictive exhaust silencers which robbed it of much of its low-down power. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.178.138.199 (talk) 17:57, 5 May 2013 (UTC)

The wording from the cited source (Bacon 1990) is To meet the emission levels a new cylinder head with parallel inlet ports was introduced. I would read it as new to the T140 range as the previous heads were splayed port as we know. If we can find a source that says it is a TR7 Tiger head then that could be added I suppose, depends if other editors think it is encyclopedic or not. Nimbus (Cumulus nimbus floats by) 20:19, 5 May 2013 (UTC)