Talk:Visarion Puiu

Page contents not supported in other languages.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

External links modified[edit]

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified one external link on Visarion Puiu. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 18 January 2022).

  • If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
  • If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 16:29, 9 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

"War criminal"[edit]

This man is very clearly not a war criminal. He preached his faith in a region that belonged to Romania and was STOLEN by the Soviet Union. He just preached his faith there and re-opened churches. That is clearly not an illegal thing and especially not a war crime. Stop calling him a war criminal, he is clearly a victim of communism. 2003:E6:5F25:20A8:988B:4E3D:4283:2AD7 (talk) 14:48, 24 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

This appears to be your opinion. --ZimZalaBim talk 15:08, 24 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

That is not just my opinion, that are facts. But if we want to play that game, it’s only your opinion that he was a war criminal, yet you have zero proof for that. 030.jtm (talk) 15:14, 24 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The article notes (with a reference): "a People's Tribunal, the Romanian counterpart of the Nuremberg military tribunals, sentenced him to death in absentia for war crimes on 21 February 1946". --ZimZalaBim talk 15:19, 24 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Properly sourced information based on recent Holocaust scholarship regarding Puiu's actions is available in these articles: Relationship between the Romanian Orthodox Church and the Iron Guard and Romanian Orthodox Church. This information and the references should, indeed, be included in the article, which in its present state is far too favorable to Puiu and the Orthodox Church. Plinul cel tanar (talk) 16:18, 24 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

"Behaving as feudal lords exploiting their Jewish and Ukrainian serfs, Metropolitan Puiu and the priests around Archimandrite Antim Nica developed into a virtual First Estate, intent on expanding their wealth and influence over Transnistria. The priest Fr. Andrei Nicov, who became with Nica’s support dean of Odessa, worked with a clique that included his brother Antim Nica and their friends hieromonk Varlaam Chirita (abbot of Ber ̧sad Monastery) and hieromonk Antim Tabacu (abbot of Osipovca Monastery and spiritual superior of all Romanian Orthodox monasteries in Transnistria). Archimandrite Nica accumulated considerable wealth by trafficking gold watches and other readily fenced valuables stolen from the Jews; precious icons lifted from Ukrainian Orthodox churches (Romanian carpetbaggers “presumed” that the priests of any Ukrainian or Russian Orthodox churches still standing must have been collaborators with the “Bolsheviks”); and from the large mass of the majority-Ukrainian population. Members of all these groups “voluntarily” handed property to the ecclesiastical and other authorities as “gifts” in return for favors and dispensations. Some of the Orthodox clerics’ occasional female counterparts engaged in the same extortion, as the nun Pahomia Marinescu, serving as a nurse in the Queen Mary military hospital, trafficked in icons, tapestries, and other precious objects received from the local population." Biliuță, Ionuț (2020). ""Christianizing" Transnistria: Romanian Orthodox Clergy as Beneficiaries, Perpetrators, and Rescuers during the Holocaust". Holocaust and Genocide Studies. 34 (1). doi:10.1093/hgs/dcaa003 Plinul cel tanar (talk) 16:30, 24 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

"He was condemned to death in absentia in February 1946, but the reasons for the sentencing, which will be address immediately, were not very clear. He claimed to have received a copy of the sentence only on 20 January 1947, but the secret services’ cables show that he had been aware of the sentence since April 1946. According to the first paragraph of the sentence, Puiu’s main guilt resided in the fact that “he placed himself in the service of Hitlerism and left the national territory, fleeing on enemy’s territory and from there attacked the country.” This seems to be the most important charge against him. When the sentence goes into more detail, the first aspect mentioned was his attitude in Transnistria: “The defendant, former Metropolitan of Bukovina from 1 December 1942 to 1 December 1943 encouraged [patronized], from his position, the terror actions in Bessarabia and Transnistria”. This charge was based on a report Puiu had written to the Romanian Patriarchy one month after his appointment as Metropolitan of Transnistria." Popa, Ion (2013). "Visarion Puiu, the Former Romanian Orthodox Metropolitan (Archbishop) of Transnistria — A Historical Study on His Life and Activity". Holocaust. Study and Research (6): 182–203. Plinul cel tanar (talk) 16:39, 24 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Do you have a suggestion on how to best incorporate these sources? --ZimZalaBim talk 18:00, 24 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Immediate action: leave - "war criminal" in the lead. Many Nazis and Nazi collaborators were tried in Eastern-bloc countries and even in the Soviet Union, that doesn't make them less criminal. Puiu is a convicted war criminal and modern historiography confirms the verdict; furthermore, to my knowledge, no judicial rehabilitation was ever attempted. Short term action: the information available in Relationship between the Romanian Orthodox Church and the Iron Guard can practically be copy-pasted here with the references. Long term action: this article is on my to-do list. Unfortunately, I simply do not have the time to do a the job anytime in the foreseeable future. Plinul cel tanar (talk) 18:48, 24 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I agree. --ZimZalaBim talk 18:53, 24 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

This is clearly, and I mean very clearly, propaganda by the Communists. Anyone can say "this priest did that and this" without any proof, like a woman/man claiming person x raped them. The communists did often lie and spread propaganda about church people (doesn’t matter if in Romania, also in other countries of course, and not just about Orthodox people, as they did this to Catholics too.) Nazis did lie about many Jews committing crimes, and so did the Communists with anyone who did not agree with them and their ideology, this is undeniable. As someone from a former Communist country, they (the communists) did persecute many many many innocent priests and bishops, so again, Puiu is most likely innocent too, of course, only God knows, but it’s not fair to call someone a war criminal based on what communists say without them having any proof on this. God bless. 030.jtm (talk) 21:40, 24 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, and I forgot, the "Peoples Tribunal" has absolutely no legitimacy. It did not judge people based on their actions but based on their ideology and their beliefs. You were an orthodox priest? Ok go die or go to prison. You weren’t a communist? Ok go die or go to prison. I forgot to say, prison in those times is almost like a death sentence anyways. I genuinely do not understand why you people do believe everything that communists do and say, yet condemn absolutely everything the Nazis / fascist said or did. Either judge them both fair and squire, or don’t judge at all. It’s always very notable how communists and Jews are favourited against the fascists/nationalists and there is no neutral opinion. We could also argue now if the Iron Guard was truly evil or not, but again, we should be neutral (as you said) but this is very non-neutral since all sources are based on Communism propaganda. 030.jtm (talk) 21:55, 24 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

A lot of what I'm seeing here is your viewpoint on the matter, and seems you are quite passionate about your position. That said, we need to go by verifiable information that reliable sources say about a topic. --ZimZalaBim talk 22:10, 24 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

"A document found on the Texas Military Forces Museum’s Website speaks about an encounter between Chaplain (Colonel) Herbert E. MacCombie of the 36th Infantry Division and Visarion Puiu in the Kitzbuhel camp. According to this account, “He (i.e., Puiu) told me that the Germans had been paying him several hundred marks a month, plus food and lodgings to support their cause. He asked what I thought the Americans would pay him to switch sides. Since he had not been much help to the Germans, I did not think the Americans would pay him anything. I arranged quarters and rations for him. He had his ‘niece’ with him. I arranged separate quarters for her.”" Popa, Ion (2013) "Visarion Puiu, the Former Romanian Orthodox Metropolitan (Archbishop) of Transnistria — A Historical Study on His Life and Activity". Holocaust. Study and Research (6): 182–203. And a bit more on the Romanian Orthodox mission to Transnistria, from yet another academic source. "Accusations of corruption, abuse of power, and embezzlement abounded and tarnished the mission’s reputation. Tellingly, the Romanian gendarmerie also frequently reported such practices. For example, on March 6, 1942, Gendarmerie Legion Golta reported that “Priests on mission in Transnistria discredit the purpose of their mission by their unbecoming behavior.” On October 29, 1943, Gendarmerie Legion Oceacov reported to the higher-ups in Odessa that “priests on the mission from the country [Romania] manage to destroy what the Bolsheviks had failed to destroy, concerning faith in God. This is due to their engaging in illicit business transactions and committing actions which compromise the dignity of their office.” Solonari, Vladimir, "A satellite empire : Romanian rule in southwestern Ukraine, 1941–1944.", Cornell University Press, 2019, p. 134-135 Plinul cel tanar (talk) 04:22, 25 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Putting aside Puiu's actual actions let's look at some recent scholarship on the People's Tribunals of 1946. Here's what Roland Clark, an accomplished scholar of Romanian history and specialist of the Iron Guard writes: "Romanian investigations into responsibility for the Holocaust began in 1946 when the short-lived People’s Tribunals tried 2700 individuals suspected of war crimes. Only 668 were condemned while the others were released due to lack of evidence. Defendants included not only perpetrators of the Holocaust but also members of Antonescu’s government and prominent members of the Fascist Legion of the Archangel Michael, which had ruled together with Antonescu from September 1940 to January 1941. Unfortunately, the purpose of these trials had more to do with condemning the old regime than with investigating the genocide, and many Romanians understood them as a product of the Soviet occupation instead of as an attempt to punish mass murderers. Many of those condemned in 1946 received an amnesty in 1950, being released from prison for good behaviour. Another series of trials took place during the 1950s, this time focused on lower-level perpetrators and making use of survivor testimonies, but still with little recognition that the victims suffered because of their ethnicity and not because of their political or social positions. These trials did not receive the same publicity as the highlevel trials of 1946 and involved significantly fewer defendants." (Clark, Roland, "New models, new questions: historiographical approaches to the Romanian Holocaust", European Review of History: Revue europeenne d'histoire, 19 (2), pp. 303–320, ISSN 1350-7486). So, contrary to popular belief in contemporary Romania, the People's Tribunal actually acquitted the vast majority of defendants and, of those convicted, a lot were released after only four years in prison. The main difference from trials organized in the West is that the prosecution had very little regard for the actual victims and the investigation focused almost exclusively on establishing connections with either the Iron Guard or the Antonescu regime. Puiu's case, despite being tried in absentia, fits the pattern as Ion Popa noted (see above). The main charge against Puiu was that he had taken refuge in Nazi Germany and had become involved with Horia Sima's pro-Nazi government in exile (while disputed, there is evidence that he was, at least for a short time, a member of that government). The atrocities committed in Transnitria by the clergymen of the Romanian Orthodox Mission were only a secondary charge. That being said, no possible argument can clear Puiu of his status as war criminal. In fact, as I already said, the present article is very much biased in Puiu's favor and fails to incorporate recent scholarship. Plinul cel tanar (talk) 07:07, 25 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

It must be noted that still many Priests and Bishops (and I mean Romanian ones) do remember and praise Puiu. Just a year ago they had a memorial liturgy and other stuff in Bălți for him. And now the more important stuff. "One of the most cultured Romanian Orthodox clerics from the interwar period". These were the words of Nicolae Iorga with which he described Visarion Puiu, and it must be noted that Iorga was shot by the Iron Guard, which wouldn’t make sense for Puiu to support an organisation who shot someone who greatly praised him. Puiu would like many other scholars of the nation, suffer for his beliefs after the establishment of the communist regime. He would be sentenced to death in absentia in 1946 by the Bucharest People's Court, excommunicated by the Holy Synod of the BOR in 1950 and (!)rehabilitated(!)post mortem on September 25, 1990. The "evil" things that Puiu did was condemn Joseph Stalin and writing a letter about him comparing him to Herod. He said this: ""Comrade Stalin, sent millions of people to their death to save his throne. For the diabolical rule of Stalin, as much blood flowed as was not even in the 100-year wars recorded in history. Because of Stalin's cruelty, wives remained widows, orphaned children and old women waiting in vain for their sons. Fate will decide. Stalin will drown in his own cruelty and the leadership of the country will be taken by another worthy." It sounds critical and it is critical but criticising a communist leader who killed even more people than Hitler is not wrong at all, including killing romanian people. You can actually find a lot of things about Puiu on YouTube and google where Romanian clergy and others greatly praise him even today. And as you doubted, he was indeed rehabilitated in 1990, which can also be googled, but is in romanian Language due to him being more or less unknown in the non-Romanian world. 

030.jtm (talk) 16:52, 25 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The so called rehabilitation was a decision of the Holy Synod of the Romanian Orthodox Church. I already included the information in the article on Relationship between the Romanian Orthodox Church and the Iron Guard so I was very much aware of it. It simply nullifies the Synod's decision to defrock Puiu, it is by no mean a court ruling providing judicial rehabilitation. As for the priests and bishops who praise Puiu (but also Crainic, Staniloae and others) this is well documented in academic literature. Ion Popa has two chapters in his book "The Romanian Orthodox Church and the Holocaust" dedicated to whitewashing and rewriting history. Information on this is also included in the article on the Relationship between the Romanian Orthodox Church and the Iron Guard. Plinul cel tanar (talk) 17:05, 25 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Why would Ion Papa (the only guy who is against those people) be more reliable than tons of Priests and Bishops? Besides who even is Ion Popa, there is absolutely nothing you can find about this "person". Besides, you not acknowledging his rehabilitation due to it being from the Church, is just … YOUR OPINION (ironic I know!). It is very clear to see that you are in no way an orthodox Romanian, you are most likely a Jewish romanian or a communist romanian, or… not even an actual romanian. It’s not whitewashing history, it’s the truth, which all sources confirm except communist and anti nationalist sources (definitely not biased, lol.) 030.jtm (talk) 17:09, 25 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

On this talk page I provided references from four 4 academics, all Holocaust scholars with an international reputation. I can easily bring up 3 more if needed. It's the kind of independent reliable source wikipedia accepts. Tons of bishops and priests don't matter, nor do youtube videos. Plinul cel tanar (talk) 17:19, 25 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
"Independent" all from Jews & communists and Freemasons, wow so independent and non-biased. They definitely do not hate Orthodox people… 030.jtm (talk) 18:04, 25 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Uh oh. I sense trouble ahead. EEng 19:17, 25 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Major article overhaul[edit]

Following the vivid exchange above I've decided to take the time and rewrite the article completely using academic sources. While Visarion Puiu's biography may seem like a minor topic it is particularly problematic because of his role in the Holocaust. Under the circumstances I intend to use WP:CHOPSY in a rather strict manner and I will begin by removing information based on the blatantly unreliable "activenews.ro" - a far right website, but also information based on bittv.info which is certainly not a reliable sources on such matters. I will then add the properly sourced information already present in the Relationship between the Romanian Orthodox Church and the Iron Guard Plinul cel tanar (talk) 14:38, 25 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Review[edit]

User:Plinul cel tanar I've noticed your request for review at WP:BIO. This is C-class easily, possibly B-class or even GA. I suggest you nominate it for a WP:GAN review which should take less than the year+ you spend waiting for someone to notice your request at the clearly backlogged BIO review requests section. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 02:19, 19 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I agree. I have marked it as B-class in the meantime. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 11:15, 27 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Visarion_Puiu&oldid=1199570680"