Talk:Voyage of the James Caird

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Voyage of the James Caird article.
This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic.
New to Wikipedia? Welcome! Learn to edit; get help.

Article policies

Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL

Voyage of the James Caird is a featured article; it (or a previous version of it) has been identified as one of the best articles produced by the Wikipedia community. Even so, if you can update or improve it, please do so.

This article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page as Today's featured article on May 10, 2014.

Article milestones
Date	Process	Result
August 30, 2008	Featured article candidate	Promoted

Facts from this article were featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the "On this day..." column on May 10, 2013, May 10, 2018, May 10, 2019, May 10, 2020, May 10, 2021, May 10, 2023, and May 10, 2024.

British Overseas Territories

	United Kingdom portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject British Overseas Territories, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of British Overseas Territories on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.British Overseas TerritoriesWikipedia:WikiProject British Overseas TerritoriesTemplate:WikiProject British Overseas TerritoriesBritish Overseas Territories
???	This article has not yet received a rating on the project's importance scale.

Ships

This article is within the scope of WikiProject Ships, a project to improve all Ship-related articles. If you would like to help improve this and other articles, please join the project, or contribute to the project discussion. All interested editors are welcome. To use this banner, please see the full instructions.ShipsWikipedia:WikiProject ShipsTemplate:WikiProject ShipsShips

Antarctica High‑importance

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject Antarctica, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Antarctica on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.AntarcticaWikipedia:WikiProject AntarcticaTemplate:WikiProject AntarcticaAntarctica
High	This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale.

England Mid‑importance

	England portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject England, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of England on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.EnglandWikipedia:WikiProject EnglandTemplate:WikiProject EnglandEngland-related
Mid	This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.

Comments

This seems a good article, one that, with some work, could become GA / FA rated. Any thoughts on improvement? Sjcodysseus 21:40, 6 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I'm in. Currently trying to get Ernest Shackleton to FA, but would LOVE to work on this with you!Lazulilasher (talk) 00:24, 23 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Hurley's famous photo

Maybe a mention of this in the aticle - the one of the men waving the James Caird off, entitled The Departure of the James Caird from Elephant Island in Worsley's book Endurance, of which Hurley at some stage doctored the negative, removing one of the two boats in the image and then presented it as The Rescue, purporting to show the rescue boat arriving at Elephant Island? It's mentioned in Caroline Alexanders book, page 202. Great article BTW 86.147.162.92 (talk) 13:51, 30 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

An interesting point; it has been accepted for some time that Hurley doctored some of the Elephant Island photographs. I've been cautious in my selections, for that reason. Since I've not used any of the doubtful pics in the article, I don't think this warrants a mention in the text. But thank you for you comment, and for your kind words about the article, too. Brianboulton (talk) 08:56, 31 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Incorrect link

The link for Stromness links to Stromness, Scotland not Stromness, South Georgia —Preceding unsigned comment added by 141.158.50.243 (talk) 17:08, 19 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks - I've fixed it now. DuncanHill (talk) 17:14, 19 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

A note to User:Superanth

Hello. I have reverted your recent additions to the article for two reasons. First, it is not good manners to insert prose into articles without first raising the matter here, on the talkpage. Otherwise (as I said to you before in connection with a different page) an article can become cluttered with trivial facts which destroy its balance and its quality. Any suggestions for additional information will be welcome here, but please act within a consensus. Secondly, YouTube is not a reliable or scholarly source as is required for all of Wikipedia's featured articles. Brianboulton (talk) 18:26, 30 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

largest seas so far

Is there any reliable source speculation that the very large wave they encountered may have been a specimen of the recently identified phenomenon of a rouge wave?

This article "Unplanned epics - Bligh's and Shackleton's small-boat voyages" by Carol Fowle talks about a "freak wave bearing down on them – the worst [Shackleton had] seen in 26 years at sea", but is that specific enough to link it to the Wikipedia article? -- PBS (talk) 19:39, 25 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Moved from college in 1967

The article said that the boat was moved to the care of the National Maritime Museam after the war. While that is true, it was certainly at the College in the 60's (as was I), displayed in a niche in the Baths/music complex. The College's own website says it was removed in 1967. I changed the text; the note already there at the end of the next sentence is the source. David Brooks (talk) 18:50, 10 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Disputed statements

I don't have a lot of time to fully document my objections right now since I have literally minutes before I need to leave for work. However, off the top of my head:

The boat had a full life before Shackleton bought it.
It was returned to service after it.

What "the voyage" is there? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.93.176.210 (talk) 07:42, 11 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

You seem to be questioning the aptness of the title, rather than the accuracy of the content. 82.33.46.46 (talk) 20:31, 11 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The wording "The voyage of..." is very standard for books or articles about ships or boats which are particularly noted for one spectacular voyage, whatever their prior or post "life" (e.g. Scott's The Voyage of the Discovery). However, in this case the article describes the one and only voyage which this lifeboat made under the name of the James Caird, so the title is particularly apt. The assertion that the boat was "returned to service" is simply wrong. Please note that dispute banners should not be used as a way of advertising minor points of this nature, which have nothing to do with the accuracy of the article. Brianboulton (talk) 22:17, 7 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Brian, it wasn't the only voyage of the boat, as it was also dragged across the Antarctic ice and sailed from Antarctica to Elephant Island.Newzild (talk) 03:50, 10 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Identity of the whaling station at the end of the long hike

There are three whaling stations on the west side of Stromness Bay. In his hike across South Georgia, I assume Shackleton was heading for whichever one he could reach, not one in particular. On his hand-drawn "Rough Memory Map" on page 206 of South he indicates that his hike ended at the middle of the three stations, which he labels Husvik. However on modern maps the middle station is Stromness, and Husvik is the one to the south of there, which Shackleton labels as Stromness. When he got to the station, he knew to ask for Mr. Sorlle, the station manager, so he must have known which station he was in, but he doesn't name it in his narrative. So which one was it, Stromness or Husvik? They are separated by a mountainous peninsula, so it had to be one or the other, not both.

The middle one, Stromness on modern maps, looks like it would be the easiest to reach on foot from the west.

HowardMorland (talk) 07:23, 10 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Never mind. It had to be Stromness, according to other sources and the terrain features he identified (frozen lake and waterfall). Shackleton's "Rough Memory Map" is mis-labeled. HowardMorland (talk) 18:32, 10 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Confusing paragraph

"A better option was to head for Deception Island, at the western end of the South Sandwich chain... However, reaching it would also involve a journey against the prevailing winds—though in less open seas—with ultimately no certainty when or if rescue would arrive... This would mean a much longer boat journey, of 800 nautical miles (1,500 km; 920 mi) across the Southern Ocean, in conditions of rapidly approaching winter, but with the help of following winds it appeared feasible."

I'm confused, did they mainly follow the wind or sail against it? The paragraph above seems to suggest both. I don't know anything about sailing, so forgive me if this is a dumb question. Kaldari (talk) 02:52, 10 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Isn't it meaning that to get to Deception Island meant going against the prevailing (westerly) winds whereas to get to South Georgia allowed sailing with a following wind? Thincat (talk) 11:03, 10 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I can't lay my hands on Shackleton's book right now but Lansing confirms this and gives an additional consideration that the Antarctic Circumpolar Current through the Drake Passage flows towards the east. The first map in ocean current shows this also marking a South Atlantic Current. Thincat (talk) 11:33, 10 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

External links modified

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 2 external links on Voyage of the James Caird. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 5 June 2024).

If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 15:27, 24 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Erroneous citation?

Page 162 of Endurance: an epic of polar adventure - Worsley, Frank Arthur does not mention the 500 steamer sunk in the storm off of South Georgia Island.119.92.203.135 (talk) 09:43, 18 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Incorrect caption "Elephant Island party waving goodbye to sailors on the James Caird, 24 April 1916"

If you expand the photo you will see in the upper left the Yelcho. The photo is of the rescue. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.69.89.81 (talk) 15:48, 10 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Additionally, the boat in the photo is clearly not the James Caird and is being propelled by oars - the modified James Caird was fitted for sailing and could not have used oars in the way seen in the photo. I have re-captioned and repositioned this picture. ThoughtIdRetired (talk) 21:07, 16 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

As noted in an above discussion and by sources, such as author Alexander Caroline (who includes an image of the damaged negative in the book cited in the article), the image was doctored. It was originally of the James Caird leaving. Compare a different photo of the same scene. I'm going to restore the previous, especially since the image itself and various sources describe it as of the departure. (And, this is just me being pedantic, since it's already established Hurley altered the photo, but as I understand the sources, they did bring oars on the Caird, per Lansing i.e. p. 219 or 253, or Worsley Endurance i.e. p. 101 or 120-121, or Shackleton p. 206, and also just the lede photo.) ~Cheers, Ten Ton Parasol 23:04, 16 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

OK, you have sources to support the original caption. However the boat does not appear to be the James Caird - the raised topsides would alter the proportions of the hull and no masts are visible, though the oars can be seen in the level of resolution of the photograph. Reading Worsley's account again, there is a possible third explanation. The Stancomb Wills (one of the other boats) was launched to assist with getting the James Caird off safely. They stayed with them for a little while, giving encouragement and were there to provide practical assistance if needed. The men on the beach remained waving and cheering for as long as one could believe that those on James Caird could see or hear them. In this situation, the photo might well show the Stancomb Wills returning, whilst the James Caird is actually out of sight. (I don't think Hurley's cameras had any significantly telephoto lenses.) That would fit with the number of men on the beach - surely Hurley was going to try to include as many as he could and the lack of all them is explained by some being in the returning boat that we see (6 to 8 men in the boat and one behind the camera?). I would be interested to know exactly how the image is thought to be doctored. Unless that material is convincing, I would put this down to an otherwise RS providing questionable material - something that we all know happens. And at what level has a possible error occurred - very easy for the the photographer to correctly say it was the beach party cheering the departing boat, but others inferring that the visible boat is the James Caird. (Having briefly made a living out of other people's mistakes, this sounds familiar.) The default position is to go with the refs, but in rare cases an editor needs to make up their own mind if the refs are correct. I'm not going to argue on this one, but I wanted to make clear my reservations. ThoughtIdRetired (talk) 23:57, 16 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Had an edit conflict there - yes James Caird had oars - you can see them in the undisputed photo and they did have to down sail and use oars to dodge the ice - but the account suggests that was a little further offshore. The outline of the boat you see in the picture is not one whose rowing positions have been disrupted by modifications. Anyway, that's enough from me. ThoughtIdRetired (talk) 23:57, 16 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Caroline states the Caird is scratched out on the negative, leaving the Willis assisting the Caird out, and provides a print stated to be direct from the negative showing an irregularly shaped hole dead center, to the right of the Willis. I do think, per all this, we should add a footnote remarking that the photo is held to be doctored, and some such as Worsley dispute Hurley's caption. ~Cheers, Ten Ton Parasol 00:15, 17 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I think the footnote does the trick. At a guess, Hurley doctored out the wrong boat when he tampered with the photo, but that thought does nothing for the article. ThoughtIdRetired (talk) 08:28, 17 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Lifeboat versus ship's boat

The three boats carried by Endurance were primarily ship's boats. Endurance was going to a place with no harbour and needed boats to ferry men and supplies ashore. This is the classic work of a ship's boat of the era. The boats may have been legally lifeboats, as to keep the Board of Trade happy, they were fitted with the requisite buoyancy tanks. But for the article to describe them as such is highly misleading.

Shackleton and Worsley in their own accounts of events simply talk about them as "boats". When the boats were put on the ice as Endurance started to sink, the buoyancy tanks were removed to give more room for everything that had to be carried - so legally they ceased to be lifeboats at that point anyway. Typical of ship's boats (as opposed to lifeboats) they were not of uniform size, with the James Caird being larger.

It is wrong to describe the James Caird as being a stronger boat. She was deliberately built more lightly than the other two boats on the orders of Worsley. That may be why she had her keel strengthened with a mast from one of the other boats.

All of the above can be confirmed from the accounts of both Shackleton and Worsley. See:
Railing, Christopher, ed. (1983). Shackleton, His Antarctic Writings. London: BBC. ISBN 0 563 20084 7
and:
Worsley, Frank Arthur (1999). Endurance : an epic of polar adventure. New York: Norton. ISBN 978-0393319941
ThoughtIdRetired (talk) 22:30, 16 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

James Caird Society

The James Caird was displayed at the London Boat Show in January 1994 whilst the "In the Wake of Shackleton expedition" was taking place. The James Caird Society was formed after the successful completion of this expedition by Trevor Potts and 3 others who successfully sailed a James Caird replica (same size, hull shape and similar sailing rig) from Elephant Island to South Georgia. This expedition was not supported by an escort ship like subsequent re-sailings of the boat journey. They made first land fall on 5th January 1994 (the anniversary of Shackleton's death) at Elsehull and eventually sailed along the South Georgia coast into Stromness where they re-traced some of Shackleton's mountain crossing. 87.115.6.28 (talk) 21:11, 28 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]