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Comma or no comma

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Wikipedia's article is currently titled “You're Sleeping, Nicole” but other sources give the English title as “You're Sleeping Nicole”:

At other film festivals in English-language areas, only the French title was used: similarly to the Michael Haneke film Amour, which was almost always called Amour in English, not Love. In particular, the official programme book of TIFF 2014 referred to the film only as Tu dors Nicole[1], and major media reporting followed suit [2] [3] . The Calgary International Film Festival apparently did the same although it gives an English translation (comma-less) [4]. It remains to be seen whether, on a US or UK release (particularly at film festivals, possibly DVD, Netflix, iTunes Store), the film is referred to by its French title exclusively, or by an English title but if the latter, it is very likely to be “You're Sleeping Nicole” without a comma. Mathew5000 (talk) 18:16, 18 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

@Bearcat: who may be able to help with this. Lugnuts Dick Laurent is dead 18:40, 18 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
The source with which I confirmed the English title used the comma, though I can't remember offhand what it was and I certainly understand that other sources may not use it. I'd have no objection to moving it to the title without the comma if that's what the preponderance of sources are actually using.
The situation with French-titled films is always tricky. It's true that some films go into release in English markets under the same title they had in French — besides Amour, two other examples I can think of are Incendies and Monsieur Lazhar — while others have an anglicized title instead (which can be either a direct translation, e.g. Night Zoo, or something completely different, e.g. Blue Is the Warmest Colour). But Canadian media coverage isn't in and of itself definitive of what the film's "English" title is — because of the nature of Canadian language politics, Canadian media follow a convention of nearly always covering Quebec films under their original French titles regardless of whether the film has a different English title or not, even while using the English titles instead for films from France. And the Canadian Screen Awards do the same, virtually always listing nominations by the original French title instead of the English one. So when determining what title a Quebec film's article should be at, since we're optimized for an international English readership rather than a Canadian one sometimes we actually have to deprecate Canadian media coverage in favour of what title American or British media are using.
But I want to assure you both that we don't just do original research translations — we leave it at the original French title unless an official English title can be properly sourced. Ultimately, what the titling policy is really designed to avoid is editwarring over whether the article should be at Night Zoo or Un zoo la nuit, Decline of the American Empire or Le déclin de l'empire américain, etc. — personally speaking, I'd actually prefer a policy of "use the original French title" for Quebec films, but that's not where the consensus sits and we can't justify having a different rule for Quebec films than we do for French-from-France ones.
Again, though, I have no objection to moving this again to the commaless version if that's what the preponderance of sources for that title are actually using. But the comma was present in the source I got it from, that's the only reason I used it. Bearcat (talk) 19:00, 18 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
At three film festivals in the US, it was listed under the French title only [5][6][7]. In Toronto it is now playing theatrically under the French title.[8] In Australia and Western Canada, it played as You're Sleeping Nicole.[9][10] It has yet to play in the UK as far as I can tell. Mathew5000 (talk) 18:42, 20 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

As I noted above, at US film festivals in 2014 it played under the title Tu Dors Nicole. The New York Times review [11] refers to the film by that title, although it mentions in parentheses the English title "You're Sleeping Nicole" (no comma). At the Edinburgh IFF it is playing this month under the French title; the programme note [12] does not even mention the English translation of the title. This is enough, I think, to move the article. Mathew5000 (talk) 05:06, 3 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 21 October 2015

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The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: moved. Bearcat has now made plenty of edits since the ping, so presumably has no strong objection to the move. Jenks24 (talk) 07:14, 9 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

You're Sleeping, Nicole → Tu dors Nicole – This is the US title. The Canadian title is kind of... unclear. Film Fan 18:54, 21 October 2015 (UTC) --Relisted. George Ho (talk) 18:20, 30 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

We're looking for the title most used in the English-speaking world, and since there's no UK or Aussie release to speak of, we look to the US and Canada. WP:NCF Film Fan 19:49, 22 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: I would support Tu dors Nicole, with a lower case "d" (but not with a capital "d"), as the above conversation seems to indicate that the original title, with its European title casing, is at least on a level par with the translation, if not more common; without a translation or alternative being more common than the original I see no reason to use anything but the original. GRAPPLE X 10:13, 22 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support Tu Dors Nicole or Tu dors Nicole. Support because it is a French language film with a French title, and per sources. "You're Sleeping, Nicole" is not the English title, it is an English translation of the French title. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 03:15, 29 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The first option is capitalized as a standard Wikipedia composition title per WP:MOSCT. The uncapitalized is as per the published title and sources.
The uncapitalized title is correct, per French film titles on WP. Lugnuts Dick Laurent is dead 08:35, 29 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
There's also plenty of precedent for us using Romance-language conventions for film titles here: just flicking through a few GA-reviewed articles, Ultime grida dalla savana, Nude per l'assassino and La tragedia del silencio all go with it. I'm sure there are plenty of others throughout the site as well, I know anything I've done in the field of Italian cinema has retained the national styling. GRAPPLE X 10:38, 29 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • In the section above I found: "As I noted above, at US film festivals in 2014 it played under the title Tu Dors Nicole. The New York Times review [11] refers to the film by that title, although it mentions in parentheses the English title "You're Sleeping Nicole" (no comma). At the Edinburgh IFF it is playing this month under the French title; the programme note [12] does not even mention the English translation of the title. This is enough, I think, to move the article. Mathew5000 (talk) 05:06, 3 June 2015 (UTC)"
Should the French be chosen, then I agree with those who mentioned that capitalization should also be French, so "dors" without a capital. Debresser (talk) 14:45, 29 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed. Lowercase d. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 22:25, 30 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion

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I note that this is reversing a previous move 22:37, 15 September 2014‎ Bearcat (talk | contribs | block)‎ . . (53 bytes) (+53)‎ . . (Bearcat moved page Tu dors Nicole to You're Sleeping, Nicole: WP:CANFRENCH: en: uses the title a film was released under in English with a redirect from the French), and that Bearcat is still an active editor but has not commented. But despite that and one oppose, I'd assess the above as a strong and valid consensus to move. Not doing so just to give Bearcat a brief chance to comment (a line call IMO and not worth a full relisting). Andrewa (talk) 15:49, 7 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Requested move 17 February 2021

[edit]
The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Moved (non-admin closure) (t · c) buidhe 00:34, 25 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]


Tu dors Nicole → You're Sleeping Nicole – Although I didn't fight the prior move from the English title back to the French title several years ago (mainly because I didn't know about it at all until after it was closed, and by the time I did find out it was clear that opinion was too mixed to get it reverted without a bigger fight than I was prepared to invest in at the time), I now feel it's time to revisit this.
Firstly, the idea that "You're Sleeping Nicole" was just an informational translation of the French title, and not an actual official English title per se, doesn't wash at all, as its own production company explicitly lists it as You're Sleeping Nicole on the English section of its own website — and lest anybody claim that that's still just a translation and not evidence of official title status, take a gander at how they fail to similarly "translate" Monsieur Lazhar and Incendies (both of which are films that very unequivocally went into English-language markets without altering their French-language original titles at all). Other than those two exceptions, right across the board the company's English directory of films uses the original language poster regardless of whether it's in English or French, but then invariably displays an English-language title when you hover over any particular poster and/or click on it to see the film's actual profile, and this film is no exception: the hover title is "You're Sleeping Nicole", not "Tu dors Nicole". And for every film in that list but this, our article about the film is at the hover title.
Secondly, while it's true that media and film festival usage was mixed and inconsistent when this film was new, we're now almost seven years removed from its status as a going theatrical concern — so home video services now have to be seen as a much more authoritative guide to what its expected title is for an anglophone audience than old film festival catalogues. And surveying those options, if you have your language defaults set to English then this film is You're Sleeping Nicole on AppleTV and iTunes, Kanopy, Google Play, the Cineplex Store, YouTube Movies and the Microsoft Store, and even Vudu goes with the double-barrelled Tu dors Nicole (You're Sleeping Nicole). It's also, for the record, listed as You're Sleeping Nicole on Rotten Tomatoes, and the five people left on the planet who still buy BluRay discs also get the double-barrelled You're Sleeping Nicole / Tu dors Nicole rather than just the French title alone. And while it's obviously true that you would see it as Tu dors Nicole on all of the same platforms if you set your language preference to French instead of English, that doesn't constitute evidence for what is or isn't the English title.
Finally, the idea that the original-language title should always take automatic precedence over any English alternative is not consistent with our rules for page titles — our rule is to look for the title most expected by an English language readership, not to privilege original titles as a first principle.
So for all of those reasons, I think it's quite clear that in a 2021 context, its English title is clearly You're Sleeping Nicole. That's the title that an English speaker is actually going to have to search for on streaming platforms if they expect to actually find it, so that's the title the article should have here. Bearcat (talk) 18:51, 17 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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