Template talk:Infobox UK place/Archive 17

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Cross-border places

The text of the article for the hamlet of Malmsmead, which straddles the Devon/Somerset border, has just been updated (principally by Rodw) to reflect its cross-border nature. I'm now attempting to update the infobox in line with this. I've used the x and x1 syntax to deal with the two civil parishes, two shire districts, two shire counties and two ceremonial counties involved. But the template is now automatically saying that the hamlet is in the Devon and Cornwall police area, which is only half correct as the Somerset side is in Avon and Somerset.

The parameter description says:

There are slightly more "esoteric" extras to handle some tricky situations of division splits, which, if needed, can be explained by contacting one of the users involved in this template's construction.

So can any of these "esoteric" extras be used to correct the auto-generation of police data, or manually over-ride it?. -- chris_j_wood (talk) 12:54, 16 February 2016 (UTC)

I think that you need to use |shire_county3=, |lieutenancy_england3= and |shire_district3=, for the second split of the place, and set |region1= which will give 2 entries for each of the services. Keith D (talk) 18:35, 16 February 2016 (UTC)

@Keith D: What second split? The boundary is Badgworthy Water, and most of the village is west of that, so is in North Devon (Brendon and Countisbury CP); only a small part is on the eastern side, and so in West Somerset (Oare CP). @Chris j wood and Rodw: Personally I would use

| civil_parish    = [[Brendon and Countisbury]]
| civil_parish1   = [[Oare, Somerset|Oare]]
| shire_district  = [[North Devon]]
| shire_district1 = [[West Somerset]]
| shire_county    = [[Devon]]
| shire_county1   = [[Somerset]]

and omit the |lieutenancy_england= params also |hide_services= so that the police, etc. are displayed for the larger portion. --Redrose64 (talk) 21:28, 16 February 2016 (UTC)

The second split is the part that you have placed in |shire_district1= and |shire_county1= Keith D (talk) 21:32, 16 February 2016 (UTC)

That's the first split - the boundaries are the same. --Redrose64 (talk) 22:05, 16 February 2016 (UTC)

Absolutely. There is only one boundary here; it is just that it has different civil_parishes, different shire_districts and different shire_counties on each side of it. So unless I'm terminally confused, there is no second split. My question was about how to persuade the template that there were also different police areas on each side, for which there doesn't seem to be any documented syntax. I had already spotted the no_services parameter and have (now) used it, but that is more of a work-around than a solution. -- chris_j_wood (talk) 12:40, 18 February 2016 (UTC)

A related problem here is the map. There only appears to be a facility to show the Devon or UK maps, the cross-border Exmoor map might be the most useful in this case.--Nilfanion (talk) 22:51, 16 February 2016 (UTC)

There is |map_type= but it appears not to apply to England. Keith D (talk) 00:53, 17 February 2016 (UTC)

Agreed. I've set it to map_type = UK, but it would be nicer to have something a bit larger scale. -- chris_j_wood (talk) 12:40, 18 February 2016 (UTC)

I already mentioned that most of the village is on the Devon side of the boundary, so why not use the Devon map? It shows much of Somerset, after all, and doesn't cut off the coastline at the boundary, so the context is there even if the background of Somerset on that map is #f6e1b9   instead of the #fefee9   used for Devon. --Redrose64 (talk) 12:51, 18 February 2016 (UTC)

My opinion is the hamlet is entirely within Devon, however if consensus is it is in both counties the map used should show that - the Devon map would suggest it is exclusively in Devon (so breaking NPOV).

In general, the ability to override the default maps is useful. Automatic selection of an appropriate map = great. Ability to manually override = even better.--Nilfanion (talk) 13:05, 18 February 2016 (UTC)

@Keith D: I don't understand your suggestion of using |region1=. Both Devon and Somerset are in South West England; I tried setting both |region= and |region1= to that value and it did nothing useful. So I guess you meant set them to different values, but what values?. -- chris_j_wood (talk) 12:47, 18 February 2016 (UTC)

The |region1= is needed to get the second set of services to show, it can be set to the same as |region=. The only down side is you get 2 entries under Region and EU Parliament, may be a tweak to the code could avoid this.

|shire_district=            [[North Devon]]
|shire_district3=           [[West Somerset]]
|lieutenancy_england=       [[Devon]]
|lieutenancy_england3=      [[Somerset]]
|shire_county=              [[Devon]]
|shire_county3=             [[Somerset]]
|region=                     South West England
|region1=                    South West England
|hide_services=

Keith D (talk) 14:53, 18 February 2016 (UTC)

Why |shire_district3= etc.? What is wrong with |shire_district1= etc. ? Also, why do you need the |lieutenancy_england= parameters at all? These are only used when the |shire_county= parameters are not used, such as in unitary authorities or Metropolitan boroughs. --Redrose64 (talk) 15:48, 18 February 2016 (UTC)

Because |shire_district3= etc. is the way to get the second services entry to display. The |lieutenancy england= entries are only needed if you want the Ceremonial county to show in the infobox. Keith D (talk) 18:55, 18 February 2016 (UTC)

@Keith D: Ok, I don't begin to understand why using |shire_district3= etc. instead of |shire_district1= does something different, but I can confirm that it does. The infobox now correctly shows both police areas. Not entirely happy about the downside of the repetition of Region and EU Parliament, but it does all work. I'll just write it down to magic. Thanks for your help. -- chris_j_wood (talk) 13:41, 19 February 2016 (UTC)

Settlement flags

Would it be worth adding some kind of settlement flag parameter --likely just an extra "static_image"-- to this template? Where we would want to display both the arms and the flag. There's a few (smallish) places with registered flags where using Template:Infobox settlement wouldn't be warranted. --Inops (talk) 01:27, 9 April 2016 (UTC)

London Borough

the London Borough title links to Districts of England, rather than London boroughs. Is there a reason for this? If not, can someone show me how to fix it? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Newystats (talk • contribs) 00:37, 13 April 2016 (UTC)

For London it's in Template:Infobox UK place/local but the link is the same whether it's in a London borough, area with a unitary authority, metropolitan borough, or non-metropolitan district or borough (the City of London is the exception), so maybe it's intentional to link to the page that explains the different types of district. Peter James (talk) 17:14, 24 April 2016 (UTC)

map_type

This allows "nomap" or "UK", but other options are only available for places in Scotland. It would also be useful for areas in a city, as in Clarawood or Finaghy it would be better than showing the whole of Northern Ireland - in the documentation, it mentions Greater Belfast as the only other option, not Scotland, so this may have been added to the template in the wrong place. As "map_type" would only be used if a particular map is wanted, could it just use the map specified by this parameter, only using the default for the area if left empty or unused? Peter James (talk) 18:33, 23 April 2016 (UTC)

It was removed in 2007 apparently (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Template:Infobox_UK_place&diff=142816870&oldid=142794324) - Scotland was added for Highland - but as mentioned recently in the discussion of cross-border places it would be better if this could be used for the whole of the UK. Peter James (talk) 17:03, 24 April 2016 (UTC)

+1 to enabling arbitrary map selection via map_type.

As for Northern Ireland - Apart from the obsolescent Greater Belfast map, there are no other maps for Northern Ireland currently available. I intend to fix that shortly (in next week or two). What subdivision is most suitable: Counties, districts or something else?--Nilfanion (talk) 18:53, 24 April 2016 (UTC)

police and fire

How do I add Avon Fire and Rescue Service and Avon and Somerset Constabulary to the infobox for the Unitary Authority South Gloucestershire? The documentation doesn't seem to tell me. Is it supposed to be picked up from some other data source? PamD 18:57, 12 May 2016 (UTC)

@PamD: See for example Badminton, Gloucestershire. The article must use {{infobox UK place}}, and the essential parameters are:

| country             = England
| region              = South West England
| lieutenancy_england = [[Gloucestershire]]
| unitary_england     = [[South Gloucestershire]]

Those four must be present, in any order; their values must be exactly as shown here, although some of the parameter names are not set in stone: the last two may be replaced by

| shire_county        = [[Gloucestershire]]
| shire_district      = [[South Gloucestershire]]

and it'll still work. The data is set in {{Infobox UK place/local}} --Redrose64 (talk) 20:32, 12 May 2016 (UTC)

@Redrose64: Thanks. Looks interesting, and works when I try it in my sandbox, but I think it'd be too big a job to try to convert the infobox from "Settlement" to "UK Place". What's the status of the two - is either officially preferred over the other? I can't see anything about it ... ah, just found the statement "all district articles should be using

Infobox UK place/Archive 17

" at Wikipedia:WikiProject_UK_geography/How_to_write_about_districts#Article_structure (and further up that same page there's "Other unitary authorities should be dealt with in a similar fashion to other districts.", so those two statements seem to make it impossible to show the emergency service links for a Unitary Authority! Sad. PamD 21:03, 12 May 2016 (UTC)

Historic county

It would surely be a good idea to have the option of adding the historic counties to the template. This would show a places context historically. England, Ireland, Scotland and Wales all had counties far back into the past and many of the boundaries have since changed and therefore are different from the Shire county they are currently in. Lookesmiley (talk) 16:34, 13 May 2016 (UTC)

The problem is this adds significant complications to the template. For instance, do we include Cumberland or Avon or both? How about when there have been multiple moves? Dates are important to understanding history too, but to say a place was in Cumberland until 1974, implies Cumberland is no longer extant (which goes against POV it still exists).

This sort of information is best explained in the body of the article, where such complications can be given better treatment.--Nilfanion (talk) 21:33, 13 May 2016 (UTC)

The historic counties do not reffer to the previous administrations that a place may have had but instead is specifically talking about the ancient divisions used for all purposes. These began to differ from the administrative council areas in 1888. I am talking about the historic counties as they were previous to this. There are full atricles about this for each country are linked in the original message. __Looke__ (talk) 09:37, 14 May 2016 (UTC)

Yes, and if you are referring to the historic counties of England (and their equivalents), defining their boundaries is not trivial. Those historic counties saw plenty of changes throughout history - both before and after to the more dramatic changes of 1889. For instance Kingsand was in Devon historically - and the date of transfer is significant. Your proposal is one of the ones that will have been discussed several times (likely in the archives here, at UKGEO etc).--Nilfanion (talk) 10:01, 14 May 2016 (UTC)

Northern Ireland maps

Dromore

Dromore (County Down)

I'm currently in the process of creating more detailed maps for Ireland. I've uploaded a location map for County Down to the right, in the same style as existing maps for GB.

I will upload the other 5 counties in near future, unless someone indicates a different breakdown of Northern Ireland is preferable.

Please get the back-end of the template ready to accept the maps.--Nilfanion (talk) 13:05, 15 May 2016 (UTC)

All done. See Ballela for example. -- WOSlinker (talk) 20:09, 28 May 2016 (UTC)

I oppose this map style. Northern Ireland is administratively divided up into unitary districts not counties. All location articles show the File:Northern_Ireland_location_map.svg because of this. I only came across this I was to seek the changing of this map to the more accurate [1] map, which takes into account the reduction in council number to 11. Counties serve no administrative purpose in Northern Ireland. Mabuska ^(talk) 13:25, 12 June 2016 (UTC)

Your maps do look nice, so if it is possible your proposed map style could be amended to depict the districts instead I'm all up for it. Mabuska ^(talk) 13:29, 12 June 2016 (UTC)

I have not yet created the main map series, and the main reason I've held off is I'm fully aware of this concern, and wanted to see some sort of positive consensus from those affected.

I went for the counties as although they have no admin function, they are definitely the primary method used to clarify where a location is in Northern Ireland when "Northern Ireland" is not enough. eg Maghera is described as being in Co Londonderry, not Mid-Ulster. IMO it seems odd to use the admin area, when its not actually how locations are described.

There are 3 options here - use the counties, use the districts or use Northern Ireland as a whole. I can easily produce a full series, once I know what consensus wants. (I also intend to produce comparable maps for the Republic, but that's outside scope of this template).

I've also fixed Template:Location map UK Northern Ireland to use the 2015 admin areas (the relief map will have to wait).--Nilfanion (talk) 16:44, 12 June 2016 (UTC)

Many thanks for updating the map for the time being. Counties are used colloquially, though officially they have been defunct since 1972 or thereabouts when they were replaced with unitary districts. They are still commonly used unofficially but maps as far as I am aware unless they are meant to be about historic counties are suppossed to use the modern administrative unit?

If you wish for more input from possibly interested editors notifying Wikipedia:WikiProject_Ireland should help. Mabuska ^(talk) 22:46, 12 June 2016 (UTC)

I am not aware of any standard (global to WP or local to UK/Ireland) which mandates what maps should show. My opinion is the maps should reflect the prose of the article, as if the map shows an area not referenced in the text its not helpful.

I did leave a message at WikiProject Ireland a month ago (and got no response), I will do so again. I have a feeling an RFC will be required to get a broad consensus on this. I'll try to get a basic framework there, so if its needed we can just slap an RFC label on the section.--Nilfanion (talk) 09:45, 13 June 2016 (UTC)

Electoral ward

Is there already a way to put electoral wards in the infobox that I can't see? If not not how do I go about adding, or suggest to an admin about adding it to the the infobox. Other systems that cover much or all of the UK like civil parishes, and post code districts, among other things, are included in what can be shown in the infobox, but I have never seen wards included. Wards are often similar size to post codes areas and parishes, some a bit bigger some a bit smaller, wards have an official boundary and official existence, and some have their own article too. I would really like the option to add this to UK place articles infoboxes, I don't think it excessive, it's exactly the kind of information I would expect to find in an infobox, and would fit nicely with the things already included in it. There is a possible issue of some places existing over boundaries in more than one ward, but that issue is already present as some places already cross other boundaries like district and postcode anyway, and it's not really caused big problems with those, it just means more than one has to be listed. Parishes do not exist in all the country, such as in most of Greater London among other places, I believe electoral wards cover the whole country, it would be especially useful to areas that don't use parishes, to allow wards to be listed instead, although I see no problem listing both where the are used.  Carlwev  19:25, 18 June 2016 (UTC)

I don't think that we should go that deep in the detail. We have district councils, parish councils, town councils; but not ward councils. Councillors elected to represent a ward do so at the parish or town council level. --Redrose64 (talk) 20:15, 18 June 2016 (UTC)

Possibly wrong infobox setting - help desk

Hello, an IP editor just posted a concern about the infobox values for "police" and "fire" in Stockton-on-Tees at the help desk (see this diff for more details). It would be great, if someone knowledgeable could look into this question, and double-check the infobox settings. GermanJoe (talk) 18:54, 30 July 2016 (UTC)

Replied at Wikipedia:Help desk/Archives/2016 July 30#Editing Police & Fire information for Stockton-on-Tees. --Redrose64 (talk) 21:03, 30 July 2016 (UTC)

Order of administrative divisions

The administrative divisions are listed upside down compared to Template:Infobox Settlement and other infoboxes. Would be better if they were the same, with largest to smallest going from top down; which also makes more sense I think. Rob984 (talk) 11:30, 11 October 2016 (UTC)

The order of small to large is much more logical and the order you normally read it in - from the place you are talking about to the country. Keith D (talk) 22:45, 11 October 2016 (UTC)

Scotland again

Moved from Template talk:Infobox UK place/doc/examples § Scotland again

 – Redrose64 (talk) 18:01, 10 November 2016 (UTC)

Two points: (1) I have removed the civil parish parameter – I think consensus is that it isn't really appropriate to use it for non-English locations, given that only in England are they presently used for any level of local government, and because the infobox automatically links to the article on English CPs; and (2) we probably shouldn't be using Aberdeen for our example, given that as per the WP:UKGEO guidelines, the Aberdeen article doesn't even use this type of infobox! Jellyman (talk) 17:42, 10 November 2016 (UTC)

converting to use Template:infobox

Hello all. I am in the process of converting this template to use Template:Infobox. This is obviously a VERY complex template. I must also admit that as an american there are many aspects of this template that don't make complete sense to me. I am try my very best to not change any functionality of the template. Once the conversion is 100% complete there shouldn't be any noticeable difference in how the template is displayed. That being said, it is not only possible but probable that I will make some mistakes. I would LOVE some help checking my work. At this point I am a little more than halfway there. The testcases look pretty good and should def help but any additional assistance looking things over would be great. Once the conversion is "done" in my eyes, I will post here again and ask for a peer review before updating the base template. Thanks in advance! --Zackmann08 (^{Talk to me}/_{What I been doing}) 19:19, 10 January 2017 (UTC)

Well it is "done"... @Pigsonthewing, Xaosflux, Primefac, Redrose64, Sardanaphalus, John of Reading, Frietjes, and Plastikspork: as some of the major contributors over the years, would love any peer review you are willing to give. --Zackmann08 (^{Talk to me}/_{What I been doing}) 21:01, 10 January 2017 (UTC)

@Zackmann08: If you refer to the version in the sandbox, it looks good on a first glance, except that |region= is missing from the example there. Good work! Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 21:06, 10 January 2017 (UTC)

@Pigsonthewing: that is what I'm refering to and thanks! Region is missing because of the subtemplates that don't have a default for their switch statements and the region I'm currently supplying is {{{region="region"}}}. --Zackmann08 (^{Talk to me}/_{What I been doing}) 21:08, 10 January 2017 (UTC)

Darn, you beat me to it re: regions! But yeah, it looks good. Fantastic work! Primefac (talk) 21:14, 10 January 2017 (UTC)

@Primefac: thanks!! Really appreciate it. :-) --Zackmann08 (^{Talk to me}/_{What I been doing}) 21:15, 10 January 2017 (UTC)

Good to go, from my PoV, then. I have the temaplte-editor flag, if you need me to make the switch and no-one else objects. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 21:22, 10 January 2017 (UTC)

I changed the bullet indentation for density to match the other bullets. in {{infobox settlement}} we are using  • , here we are using just • , in {{infobox country}} I used <div style="text-indent:-0.9em;margin-left:1.2em;font-weight:normal;">•&nbsp; ...</div> which allows for the labels to wrap and still be indented away from the bullet. I don't have a strong opinion on which method is used, so long as they are all the same within the infobox. Frietjes (talk) 21:52, 10 January 2017 (UTC)

Incorrectly named parameter

The parameter |manx_shedding= appears to be incorrectly named as the description for this is Sheading. Keith D (talk) 22:44, 2 February 2017 (UTC)

The template now recognises both spellings, but I've not altered the documentation because somebody thought that it would be a great idea to build it up from myriad subpages. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 00:55, 3 February 2017 (UTC)

Thanks. I will try and switch over some of the obvious ones. Keith D (talk) 01:46, 3 February 2017 (UTC)

Documentation needs updating

The template documentation needs updating for |population_density= which refers to {{pop density mi2 to km2}} and {{pop density km2 to mi2}} both of which have been deleted. May be we should be using {{pop density}} or {{convert}} or is there a better one knowing the density rather than the area? Keith D (talk) 22:47, 5 February 2017 (UTC)

The documentation says: population_density – will be calculated automatically if area and population are present. What would you suggest that we change that explanation to?

It looks like you might be referring to the TemplateData, which is not really documentation. It is used by the Visual Editor as programming code and can be ignored. – Jonesey95 (talk) 05:28, 6 February 2017 (UTC)

No I was referring to the comments under the full syntax against the |population_density= parameter which is a couple of lines below that which you quoted which is against the |population= parameter. Keith D (talk) 13:07, 6 February 2017 (UTC)

Category:Pages using infobox UK place with unknown parameters (Wales)

I have started clearing out the errors which Category:Pages using infobox UK place with unknown parameters is showing. It is showing a few hundred places from Wales. A quick look suggests that they all include |english_name. The only permitted parameters are |official_name, |welsh_name, and |local_name. I have raised this with JJMC89 who says I need consent for him to run a BOT.

@Twiceuponatime: I would be willing to do this; however, since |english_name= doesn't do anything currently, it would be considered a cosmetic edit. WP:AWBRULES #4 prevents the use of AWB and WP:COSMETICBOT applies, so consensus for removal would be needed. Usually a discussion for this would occur on the template's talk page with discussion notifications being placed at the relevant WikiProjects. — JJMC89 19:30, 12 February 2017 (UTC)

How do I go about this? Twiceuponatime (talk) 10:25, 13 February 2017 (UTC)

I have removed a couple of these, but a BOT would be much more efficient as there were 291 of these at the start of the month. Though you could also incorporate other changes such as the relocation of the See also section before the References which appears to be a problem with most of these pages. Keith D (talk) 13:11, 13 February 2017 (UTC)

Distance from capitals - precision

Could I suggest that the documentation should point out that whole miles, rather than decimal fractions of miles, is the appropriate level of precision for distances from capitals?

An editor (@Springchickensoup:) is adding distances from London and Edinburgh to infoboxes in many Scottish location articles, such as Cairndow being "382.33 miles" from London. I'm sure this is an inappropriate level of precision, but can't find chapter and verse anywhere to cite. Any thoughts? PamD 11:41, 19 February 2017 (UTC)

Over exaggeration, less than 10, is now many! {Springchickensoup (talk) 11:43, 19 February 2017 (UTC)}

MOS:LARGENUM is the relevant guidance: "Where explicit uncertainty is unavailable (or is unimportant for the article's purposes) round to an appropriate number of significant digits; the precision presented should usually be conservative. Precise values ... should be used only where stable and appropriate to the context, or significant in themselves for some special reason."

I'd suggest two significant figures is the appropriate level for this use.--Nilfanion (talk) 17:04, 19 February 2017 (UTC)

I agree. --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 20:47, 19 February 2017 (UTC)