User talk:BabelStone/Archive 2015

DYK for Lenborough Hoard

Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 00:02, 11 January 2015 (UTC)

fifty DYKs!!!!

		The 50 DYK Creation and Expansion Medal
		This recognition of fifty DYKs belittles the contribution that you have made to Wikipedia. All those great articles about hoards that I believe started in the year that we collaborated with the British Museum. Lots of stuff about the History of the World in 100 objects including dozens of great photographs. Its a great pleasure to recognise this achievement and to thank you on behalf of the DYK project, myself and the wiki. Thanks. Victuallers (talk) 23:24, 12 January 2015 (UTC)

Thanks! I very much appreciate your kind words. These last couple of years I have not had much time for Wikipedia, and have only managed two DYKs since the start of 2014. Hope to do better this year! BabelStone (talk) 23:59, 12 January 2015 (UTC)

Go Seigen in japanese

Hi, you rolled back my edit in article on Go Seigen. I admit I dont speak/write Japanese, but right now in the article are same characters for Go Seigen′s name in Japanese and in Chinese, which looks suspicious even to me. I took the Japanese characters from the article on de.wiki. Wesalius (talk) 09:54, 20 January 2015 (UTC)

My bad, I didnt spot the difference in first character. Wesalius (talk) 09:54, 20 January 2015 (UTC)

Hi, the characters for the name are indeed the same in Chinese and Japanese (the difference in the first character is cosmetic), but the same characters are pronounced "Wei Qingyuan" in Mandarin Chinese, but "Go Seigen" in Japanese. Hope this explanation helps. Thanks. BabelStone (talk) 10:05, 20 January 2015 (UTC)

Duang

Any chance you could make the background of File:Duang simplified.png transparent? Prioryman (talk) 20:34, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

I'm embarrassed to say that I don't know how to make backgrounds transparent -- can you do it yourself? BTW I noticed you DYK'd the article. BabelStone (talk) 21:02, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

No worries, I've done it myself. Yes, I DYK'd it - no objections I hope? Prioryman (talk) 22:49, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

No, of course not -- I meant it was great to see it on DYK. BabelStone (talk) 22:59, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

Oracle bone image

Hi. Thanks for uploading File:Shang dynasty inscribed scapula.jpg and File:Shang dynasty inscribed tortoise plastron.jpg. I wonder if you have an image of the scapula that is immediately to the left of those two in the same display in the museum. I ask because Keightley has a detailed discussion of the inscription on that one, which we could cite. Cheers, Kanguole 18:27, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

This one? I took two pictures, and both were out of focus. This is the least worse, but not good enough to upload to Commons unless you really need it. BabelStone (talk) 19:51, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

Ah, that's a pity. The inscription is clear, but your photo of the other scapula is so much better. Thanks anyway. Kanguole 01:26, 8 March 2015 (UTC)

@Kanguole, in case it useful for you, 《甲骨金文拓本》 (Shanghai Daxue Chubanshe, 2010) by Ma Rusen 馬如森 (which I bought at the National Museum of China bookstore) gives the transcription of HJ 137r as:

• 癸卯卜，爭，貞：旬亡𡆥？甲辰大驟風之夕皿乙巳[疛]{⿱止幸}[羌]五人。五月在[敦]。
• 癸丑卜，爭，貞：旬亡祸？王{⿴囗占}曰：“有祟有夢”。甲寅允有來{⿰壴女}。左告曰：“有往芻自{⿱汄皿}十人又二。
• 癸丑卜，爭，貞：旬亡𡆥？三日乙卯有{⿰壴女}單丁人豊尿于彔丁巳㲋子豊尿鬼亦得疾。

BabelStone (talk) 20:37, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

Thanks, I'd looked it up in 《甲骨文合集释文》, but couldn't find all the characters. Kanguole 21:56, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

Theresa Rose Greaves

I have no idea how to use Wikipedia, but I saw you edited People who disappeared mysteriously, which I just read all of, and find very interesting, but thought you could add in Theresa Rose Greaves.. Nateewelling (talk) 00:53, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

COIN and AfD notifications

Notice of Conflict of interest noticeboard discussion This message is being sent to inform you that there is currently a discussion at Wikipedia:Conflict of interest/Noticeboard regarding a possible conflict of interest incident in which you may be involved. Thank you. Shervinafshar (talk) 21:27, 4 April 2015 (UTC) Proposed deletion of Andrew West (linguist) The article Andrew West (linguist) has been proposed for deletion because of the following concern: The self-declared account of the subject of this article has said on several occasions that he would like this article deleted. Most recently: I would be even happier if the article disappeared but I cannot take it to AfD myself, and no-one else seems willing to do so. BabelStone (talk) 08:02, 7 April 2015 The article has attracted conflict, including Wikipedia:Conflict_of_interest/Noticeboard#Andrew_West_.28linguist.29. Although West may or may not be a notable academic on account of a significant contribution to his field, I believe that because he is a low profile individual, it would be prudent and polite to honor this request. --Hroðulf (or Hrothulf) (Talk) 15:21, 8 April 2015 (UTC) While all constructive contributions to Wikipedia are appreciated, content or articles may be deleted for any of several reasons. You may prevent the proposed deletion by removing the {{proposed deletion/dated}} notice, but please explain why in your edit summary or on the article's talk page. Please consider improving the article to address the issues raised. Removing {{proposed deletion/dated}} will stop the proposed deletion process, but other deletion processes exist. In particular, the speedy deletion process can result in deletion without discussion, and articles for deletion allows discussion to reach consensus for deletion. Hroðulf (or Hrothulf) (Talk) 15:25, 8 April 2015 (UTC) Nomination of Andrew West (linguist) for deletion A discussion is taking place as to whether the article Andrew West (linguist) is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted. The article will be discussed at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Andrew West (linguist) until a consensus is reached, and anyone is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines. Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion notice from the top of the article. – Fayenatic London 15:34, 14 April 2015 (UTC)

pm

Sorry. I disagree vehemently. As a disambiguation page it is imperative that the distinction between PM and pm is made. That's the very nature of such a page. As such it should be clear to all readers that there is a difference between PM and pm. I consider it an insult for you to say that what the OED has to contribute is not important. Please put it back as I left it. Thanks for your co-operation. Steven — Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.59.216.147 (talk) 15:45, 21 May 2015 (UTC)

Hi Steven, thanks for your message. Although I understand your point, I do not think that it is the job of a disambiguation page to tell the reader how to write this abbreviation, but should merely point the reader to the relevant article, in this case 12-hour clock which indicates that pm/p.m. and PM/P.M are both acceptable, depending upon the house style guide. BabelStone (talk) 18:32, 21 May 2015 (UTC)

Hi BabelStone. It is basic grammar that when we abbreviate anything we should respect the capitalisation of the original. Some house styles ignoring this basic requirement is no reason for abandoning the basic requirement. More than that, the disambiguation page should be distinguishing between genuine PM (as in, e.g., Prime Minister) and pm/p.m. (post meridiem). The ambiguity isn't cleared up with the mis-capitalisation of post meridiem. The "12 hour clock" page should also be corrected with the explanation that abbreviating "post meridiem" should preserve the capitalisation. I won't do that because you are likely to revert to the original, so please make the appropriate alteration. That way neither of us will get annoyed. I also note that the 12-hour clock page indicates that 12 noon is often indicated as "12 p.m." Since "p.m." means post meridiem, or AFTER noon, it might be handy to point out that 12p.m. is literally 12 o'clock after noon, which can only be 12 midnight. Can we please clear up the ambiguity caused by people incorrectly referring to 12 noon as 12p.m.? If people used "noon" and "midnight" instead of not thinking about the meaning of 12pm we would be far better off. Steven — Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.59.216.147 (talk) 03:41, 22 May 2015 (UTC)

• (talk page stalker) If people arrive from a search engine, they will probably arrive at PM capitalized. They can learn all about capitalization at 12-hour clock when they get there. I don't think your proposed changes are appropriate as they clutter the disambiguation page, which is meant to be a simple and quick to use signpost to whichever article the reader wanted.
• You wrote: If people used "noon" and "midnight" instead of not thinking about the meaning of 12pm we would be far better off. I totally agree, though Wikipedia can't cure it. 12pm is known to be ambiguous and confusing (despite your explanation of the literal meaning.) Read all the detail at 12-hour clock#Confusion at noon and midnight, especially the shocking entries for "U.S. Government Printing Office (1953)" and "Japanese legal convention"

--Hroðulf (or Hrothulf) (Talk) 10:39, 22 May 2015 (UTC)

Hello again. I can agree with you about the capitalisation being available on the 12-hour page, but if you argue that comments about that should be kept to that page then we must remove any reference to such things as "also written as", on the disambugation page. I feel strongly that if the origin of the abbreviation is clear where there is information relating to how it is written then we can educate people on what is etymologically, and grammatically correct. Problems like this arise because of a lack of information, which allows people to do their own thing and when enough people do that language decends into chaos. So, can we agree to either include, on the disambiguation page, the reason why PM is not correct when talking about the time, or remove from that page any reference to other ways (correct or otherwise) of writing an abbreviation for post meridiem? As to the comment that "Wikipedia can't cure [the problem of people using 12am and 12pm instead of noon and midnight, or midnight and noon]" it can contribute to the disambiguation by being correct itself, since people looking at Wikipedia will see the correct notation and be educated. People learn from what they see and hear far more than they do in schools, so let's set a good example for others to follow. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.59.216.147 (talk) 12:54, 22 May 2015 (UTC) Steven — Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.59.216.147 (talk) 12:46, 22 May 2015 (UTC)

Unicode and ISO 15924

So Unicode v8 is about to appear. I see issues. Unicode announces:

"Six new scripts were added with accompanying new block descriptions: Ahom, Hatran" [1] (D).

But in the normative ISO 15924 file [2] Ahom does not have a Property Value Alias: Ahom;338;Ahom, Tai Ahom;âhom;;2012-11-01. And this is the normative file. (confusingly, ahom is announced in the non-normative 'changes' file [3]). Same for hatran: announced for v8, not a PVA in ISO 15924. btw, this one not even in the changes list?.

This ISO management is a troublesome discrepancy. Last time, as we know, it was fixed late and backhandedly, with a 'we all know what is meant' attitude. Next time, I will not allow Wikipedia to use unsourced statements. ping @Shervinafshar and Evertype:. -DePiep (talk) 22:56, 22 May 2015 (UTC)

I don't understand why you think there is a problem. As I have said several times before, Unicode and ISO 15924 are two different non-synchronized standards, and the Unicode Standard does not rely on ISO 15924 for script property values. That script aliases are provided by Unicode in the PropertyValueAliases.txt file is sufficient -- note that the documentation for this file does not mention ISO 15924 at all. (And please do not ping Shervinafshar in future as he is not welcome on my talk page.) BabelStone (talk) 23:13, 22 May 2015 (UTC)

Unicode defines PVA fore Ahum, and ISO 15924 is to publish that PVA formally. Unicode v8 is to use that PVA. For this connection, you can not claim that Unicode and ISO 15924 are "different non-synchronized standards" (statement may be correct in itself, and is wrong in context). Unicode says that they use exactly that PVA by definition. What you write is just an escape wording. What if you are a person maintaining a Unicode setup, and the this defining data file is outdated fort over a year?

You are shifting topic btw. I am pointing to the bad management of the defining ISO 15924 file. Last time it was 14 months late, and you were using backdoor-information to explain by non-sourced info. If needed I can provide diffs, but I assume you know what process I am talking about. (Some of those diffs would be from this talkpage. E. won't show great). -DePiep (talk) 23:31, 22 May 2015 (UTC)

DePiep. BE CIVIL. Every time you interact with us you are angry and demanding about it. That sure doesn't win you friends. The correct thing to do is to simply point out an error and, helpfully, to propose a fix. Not to malign busy people for not tracking everything in real time. The people responsible for the PVA did not contact the 15924 registrar to flag the change. Moreover, though the file is normative and includes PVA references, the PVA references are there informatively because PVA is not defined or mentioned in ISO 15924. -- Evertype·✆ 11:35, 23 May 2015 (UTC)

DePiep, PropertyValueAliases.txt does not appear to have been updated. -- Evertype·✆ 01:52, 24 May 2015 (UTC)

OK, I surely have some excuses to make. I've clicked & reread this whole story. While in this history (2014, 2013) there were some distractions, major faults are my own. First and foremost, I apologise to Evertype for interpreting this edit as: changing someone else's post (BS's) afterwards to look good. How careless, while it was a useful linkfix! To BabelStone I say: had I read more carefully and with patience, I'd have understood earlier, and so prevented loss of (y)our energy. (But there were distractions along the road, he kept crying). We might meet about practical or technical notes later on somewhere. I give four trump cards 🂡🂱🃁🃑 to throw against me in any future meeting, to say "read it again and add patience". Have a nice edit, DePiep (talk) 19:43, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

SignWriting in Unicode detailed character sequences

For SignWriting, there are character sequences that use a base character with an optional fill character and an optional rotation character. Not all sequences are valid. For each base characters there is a 6 by 16 grid that shows all of the possible character sequences available. I have put together an example charts for U+1D800. I used a simple script to automate the creation of the table data with the input of a base character. Do you think this would be useful? Do you have any formatting suggestions? In theory, each base character in the main Unicode Chart for Sutton SignWriting could link to the associated character sequences page. Slevinski (talk) 19:26, 22 June 2015 (UTC)

• Template:Unicode chart Sutton SignWriting 1D800

Hi Slevinski, thank you for showing me the chart. In principle I think it is a good idea to have supplementary charts for SignWriting showing the valid sequences for each base character, and these could be linked to from the main SignWriting chart. It is a shame that the two fonts you linked to at Help:Multilingual_support#Sutton_SignWriting do not have glyphs for the base characters, so these fonts are not very useful for the main SignWriting table. BabelStone (talk) 21:48, 25 June 2015 (UTC)

There are only 5 base characters that do not have glyphs. The rest of the base characters will display the associated glyphs when the fonts are installed. It might be a good idea to include Fill-2 for the 5 base characters and update the 3rd note for the main chart to indicate the oddity.

NOTE - Previously, FireFox was the only browser that would show the symbol glyphs in the chart. This is because FireFox has ligatures enabled by default. I added some CSS to the chart table that enables ligatures in the various browsers. Now all of the browsers display the symbol glyphs in the chart when the fonts are installed. For those without the fonts installed, there is custom CSS that includes CDN font support. I'm not sure if this is useful for Wikipedia or not. Slevinski (talk) 18:51, 26 June 2015 (UTC)

I think I will clean up the sub charts a little and then create the pages. Is there any benefit of making the supplementary charts as templates inside of pages like the main chart, or can I just insert the table data inside the page and skip the templates? I think it would also be interesting to have the supplementary charts link to each other so that a viewer can scroll through the charts. Slevinski (talk) 22:14, 25 June 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for the update, but I'm afraid the charts are still not displaying for me with either IE or Chrome, even though I have the fonts installed. Does the css need additional tweaking? BabelStone (talk) 19:09, 26 June 2015 (UTC)

Ok, I have updated the style after testing on Windows. It now works for Chrome and FireFox on Windows. Unfortunately, Internet Explorer 11 is still not displaying the characters. I think it is due to ligature support. I will try again later.

Unfortunately, Internet Explorer is not able to access the ligatures in the SignWriting 2010 fonts. The ligature glyphs are defined on plane 16 and be accessed directly, but IE fails to substitute the ligature glyph for the defined sequences. The ligature substitutions are defined in 3 feature files using sub-tables with over 100,000 individual rules. I will make a note on the Unicode block chart that IE is unable to use the ligatures to display the glyphs. Slevinski (talk) 16:47, 27 June 2015 (UTC)

I have also created User:Slevinski/common.css for the font-face with the CDN font links. This enables users to see the symbols when the fonts haven't been installed on their system. The main font is 9MB, so the first view has a delay, but subsequent views use the browser cached fonts. Slevinski (talk) 20:22, 26 June 2015 (UTC)

I have some unsolicited suggestions about the new articles, like Sutton SignWriting Unicode Sequences for 1D800 for @Slevinski:

1) I would combine table header line 1 (Sutton SignWriting) and line 4 (Valid character sequences) into a single title: Valid character sequences in Sutton SignWriting

2) Maybe the codepoint name shouldn't wrap. Try that with the longest codepoint name to see if the table looks OK. If it's weird, let it wrap.

3) Please, please replace Note 1 (As of Unicode version 8.0) with Note 3 (link to List of valid Sutton SignWriting Unicode character sequences). The current Unicode version isn't relevant to these combo tables and would create hundreds of new pages to be updated for each and every release of Unicode.

4) Only show Note 2 (Grey areas indicate invalid character sequences) on tables that actually have grey areas.

5) I'd add some broiler plate text to the new articles to say what the table is for. It's possible someone could land on the page directly and there is no explanatory text.

6) Lastly, I'd add a new note to the main Template:Unicode chart Sutton SignWriting table that says something like "Click on an individual character to see a table of valid sequences." DRMcCreedy (talk) 14:09, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

Thanks @Drmccreedy:. I appreciate the suggestions. I will update the script for page creation.

1) I combined line 1 and line 4.

2) Added nowrap template and it looks fine.

3) I will replaced note 1 with note 3.

4) I will only include note 2 (grey areas) if they exist in the chart.

5) I've included Template:Sutton SignWriting Unicode Sequences Preamble for each page.

6) Any improvements for either Template:Unicode chart Sutton SignWriting or Template:Sutton SignWriting Unicode Sequences Preamble would be appreciated.

I've updated the first 16 charts accordingly, like Sutton SignWriting Unicode Sequences for 1D800. If you have any additional suggestions, I'd appreciate hearing them before I create the remaining 600 plus. Thanks. Slevinski (talk) 14:47, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

I suggest using the format Sutton SignWriting Unicode sequences for U+1D800: “sequences” isn’t a proper noun, and code points should have the “U+” prefix. I am not sure “Sutton” is necessary: the article on the script is simply at SignWriting. I am not sure “Unicode” is necessary either: mentioning a Unicode code point in the title makes it clear that it is about Unicode. Gorobay (talk) 14:58, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

The script is called SignWriting, but the Unicode block is Sutton SignWriting, so I think it is a good idea to use Sutton in the title. Initially I had the "U+" prefix, but my automated posting script posted the "+" as a space. The solution would be to use %2B instead of + so the title would look like sequences for U%2B1D800, but I think that it less clear in the URL. "sequences" should probably be lower case, but that involve quite a few page moves and mass edit to the main template. Only a few minutes work, but messy. Thoughts and opinions? Slevinski (talk) 15:13, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

Plenty of article titles contain plus signs. Code points mentioned in prose always have the “U+” prefix. It may be ugly in the URL but it is clearer in the title, which is the main concern. Gorobay (talk) 13:04, 30 June 2015 (UTC)

The revisions look good to me. DRMcCreedy (talk) 21:37, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

Preliminary thoughts

Hi. Tx for your review. Just some preliminary thoughts. The facebook page is a "verified" page. Of the government -- the Israel Ministry of Foreign Affairs. As stated at WP:FACEBOOK, an official page may be used as an RS primary source, "but only if it can be authenticated". Here, the page has the blue "verified" badge notation, verifying that it has been authenticated. And this fact is consistent with the (now-added; not indicated in the article at the time of your review) fact, supported by other RS refs, that his father is Christian. As to the spelling of his name -- the subject is variously spelled (transliterated into English from the spelling in his native language) as "Marc" and "Mark", and the rest of the entry leaves zero doubt that the reference is to the same swimmer ... it discusses him winning the same races. It's quite common for transliterated names to have multiple spellings. Tx. --Epeefleche (talk) 21:45, 28 June 2015 (UTC)

Hi, thanks for your response. I prefer to keep the discussion of DYK issues on the DYK page so will reply there, linking to this discussion. BabelStone (talk) 18:51, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

The reason I posted my preliminary thoughts here was that, as indicated, they were preliminary thoughts. I intended to open discussion at DYK on my thoughts when I had more time to address this, but thought it premature to post there now -- but wanted you to know my preliminary thinking. You also -- there -- discussed my preliminary thoughts, but did not address our back-and-forth as to your comments re transliterated names, and the fact that this clearly refers to the same person. Epeefleche (talk) 20:34, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

DYK nomination of Wansong Xingxiu

Hello! Your submission of Wansong Xingxiu at the Did You Know nominations page has been reviewed, and some issues with it may need to be clarified. Please review the comment(s) underneath your nomination's entry and respond there as soon as possible. Thank you for contributing to Did You Know! Yoninah (talk) 10:27, 6 July 2015 (UTC)

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Send on behalf of The Wikipedia Library using MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 04:31, 7 July 2015 (UTC)

DYK for Wansong Xingxiu

Gatoclass (talk) 13:06, 8 July 2015 (UTC)

Nomination for merging of Template:British English Oxford spelling

Template:British English Oxford spelling has been nominated for merging with Template:British English Oxford spelling editnotice. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the template's entry on the Templates for discussion page. Thank you. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 13:46, 9 August 2015 (UTC)

Yu Min (linguist)

Dear Babelstone, I thought I would mention that a new article of mine has been marked as not sufficiently important. I thought you might be interested, and maybe can help me. thanks Tibetologist (talk) 06:18, 4 October 2015 (UTC) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yu_Min_%28linguist%29

Nice work

...on the conductor. Got a view on Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Southgate Symphony Orchestra? --Dweller (talk) 20:47, 4 November 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for withdrawing the AfD, I will try to improve that article some more. I hadn't heard of Southgate Symphony Orchestra before today, and without any references indicating notability I would be a weak delete for the article. BabelStone (talk) 20:55, 4 November 2015 (UTC)

ArbCom elections are now open!

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