User talk:Barts1a/OldArchives/Archive 5

This is an archive of past discussions with User:Barts1a. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Archive 1

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Archive 3

Archive 4

Archive 5

Archive 6

Hi

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

That's quite enough now... Barts1a | Talk to me | Yell at me | Merry Christmas to all! 22:55, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

I would like to be your friend :) Feast on my Soul (talk) 08:35, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for the offer and welcome to Wikipedia! However you will have to wait until you have a bit more experience here, some of your edits don't exactly seem friendly. Barts1a | Talk to me | Yell at me | Merry Christmas to all! 09:17, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

Alas, his honeymoon here was short-lived, as he is now a blocked sock. :'( ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 21:41, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

Heh. There's an unspoken wisdom here, Barts, that when someone comes to your talk page unbidden and bearing aught but tidings of friendship, they're only stirring things up. Gwen Gale (talk) 21:56, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

I suspect that was not lost on Bart, and that he was just playing along with the troll. Sometimes you have to give a little sugar to the gnats before swatting them. 0:) ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 21:58, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

For some additional amusement, please check AfricaTruth (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), who admitted to being in the same city as a known banned user, while denying being that banned user.[1] Trouble is, no one had indicated what city he was in, nor what banned user he was suspected of being a sock of. A Southwest Airlines moment. :) ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 22:01, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

Oh Dylan... Gwen Gale (talk) 22:07, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

That would be the obvious jump-to-conclusion, except he's not blocked. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 22:09, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

Yeah but I topic banned him from Palin for two weeks and I recall him speaking of himself as banned in the aftermath. Gwen Gale (talk) 22:15, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

Meanwhile I've blocked him popping up as User:AfricanTruth. Gwen Gale (talk) 22:21, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

Oh, right, topic-banned. Forgot about that. I'm topic banned from writing about the game of Beanbag, due to a violent confrontation in which there were a number of fatalities. Luckily, I was able to find other topics to work on. 0:) ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 22:24, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

I thought that was WP:BEANS but never mind. You'll be happy to know, I bought two carrots today. Two! Gwen Gale (talk) 22:28, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

Is this really the place to discuss this. We're trying to keep Barts1a away from the noticeboards, but you two are here discussing the latest noticeboard drama in detail. AniMate 22:38, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

Yeah I know and it's cool of you to bring it up, but I think Barts1a understands. Gwen Gale (talk) 22:41, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

Maybe he does, but it's not really appropriate or helpful in the effort to get Barts1a working in a way that is beneficial to Wikipedia. Let's face it, the drama over there can be somewhat addictive, as both of you know, considering both you and Bugs are in the top ten contributors to the noticeboard, with Bugs having a whopping 1800 more edits than the archival bot and 3300 more than any other editor. It's not really fair or a good idea to dangle these little AN/I dramas in front of Barts1a while still expecting him to not involve himself in them. AniMate 22:51, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

I only brought it up because he was spammed by that since-indef'd user. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 22:52, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

(ec) Truth be told, I think that may be why we were both shifting into jokes before you got here, AniMate. Gwen Gale (talk) 22:53, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Your user page

Hi! Wouldn't it be worth restoring your old user page, as you are currently editing under editing restrictions and not blocked? Hey Mid (contribs) 14:36, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

Yes, it's now 4 days since you posted that, and keep in mind that wikipedia has rules against "crystal ball" stuff. :) ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 22:04, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

Heh... oops! Barts1a | Talk to me | Yell at me | Merry Christmas to all! 22:35, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

Corrected. Barts1a | Talk to me | Yell at me | Merry Christmas to all! 22:36, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

Good enough. To decorate, you could probably add some pictures of flowers and trees and chirping birds and such stuff as that. :) ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 22:51, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

Let's not get my userpage into the megabytes... Barts1a | Talk to me | Yell at me | Merry Christmas to all! 23:01, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

Answered your question on my talk page Barts. If the above thread didn't make it obvious, there are lots of people out there watching out for you and ready to help out. Keep up the good work! N419 BH 08:36, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

Dylan Flaherty

Hi Bart! Just a quick reminder - it is probably best if you don't post to Dylan Flaherty's page. You were asked not to post there, and the thread you were posting in is inappropriate, anyway. Once someone has been indef blocked, I think it is generally best if everyone just moves on quietly. (With the obvious exception being when the block itself is suspect). - Bilby (talk) 01:11, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

The whole "do not post list" thing is invalid anyway (IMHO), I was asked to remove a similar list I had and did so. Dylan was also asked but did not... Barts1a | Talk to me | Yell at me | Merry Christmas to all! 01:23, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

The list is a separate issue - editors can ask that other editors not post to their talk page, and generally that is accepted. In this case you'd also agreed not to post there. However, I guess of equal concern is that you didn't need to - there was an element of kicking him when he was down to that thread, and joining in won't help things, (although your post wasn't that bad, it was still not a wise move). He needs to be given room to consider where he goes now, and perhaps to ask to be unblocked when he is ready. The next move is really his, so we need to politely give him a chance to work it out. - Bilby (talk) 02:27, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

Didn't we give him enough room before this block? Barts1a | Talk to me | Yell at me | Merry Christmas to all! 02:49, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

Again, different issue. I guess the short version is you don't post to someone's talk page if they've asked you not to, unless it is a formal notification, and once someone is indef blocked you step away and leave them be, rather than risk antagonizing them further when no good can come of it. - Bilby (talk) 02:57, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

I see this is already being addressed, but this was a bad idea. When someone is blocked we revert, block, ignore. There's no need to make any further posts unless you're offering to help the person or you're an admin responding to an unblock request. And based on the "shit list" at the top of his page, I think that certainly qualifies as a "contentious page". I would ignore that user from this point forward. N419 BH 06:11, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

I was merely clarifying the meaning of the comic in the context to which it was referred. At any rate I will ignore them from now on. Barts1a | Talk to me | Yell at me | Merry Christmas to all! 07:42, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

Just got this on my complaints page...

RE: Michael (album) Disruptive user User:Chelo61 is back and has re-instigated the edit war by editing the album as 'studio' again for the FOURTH time, having been blocked 3 times before. Please do something about it.218.186.8.235 (talk) 05:26, 25 December 2010 (UTC)

Alt account

Post something on the userpage there and here, to link the accounts together. --Elen of the Roads (talk) 11:07, 27 December 2010 (UTC)

Done Barts1a | Talk to me | Yell at me | Merry Christmas to all! 11:21, 27 December 2010 (UTC)

Ending the Michael Jackson edit War

Unfortunately the current edit war over the album type is rather sad but it is most certainly intolerable. Please visit Talk:Michael (album)#End the Edit War - Studio vs Compilation and part-take in the attempt to find a final resolution. -- Lil_℧niquℇ №1 ^[talk] 18:45, 27 December 2010 (UTC)

Looks like only one person so far has voted for studio... no prizes for guessing who (!) Barts1a | Talk to me | Yell at me | Merry Christmas to all!

And looking at the RFC I'd say that this user is NEVER going to back down from their evidently minority viewpoint... we've all had enough of this user, it's time to put them into the slammer and throw away the key. Barts1a | Talk to me | Yell at me | Merry Christmas to all! 22:35, 27 December 2010 (UTC)

Likewise. Hence there is a final discussion in black and white so that no one can (in the future) claim there's no consensus. *sighs* i hate when we have to go all formal on people but we need a conclusion to a 9-user strong edit war. -- Lil_℧niquℇ №1 ^[talk] 22:42, 27 December 2010 (UTC)

Where 8 of those users are on the same side... Barts1a | Talk to me | Yell at me | Merry Christmas to all! 22:44, 27 December 2010 (UTC)

Some of the utterly pointless squabbles on wikipedia remind me of this:[2] ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 23:11, 27 December 2010 (UTC)

@Baseball_Bugs... Too funny and too true. But unfortunately some people have to see things in writing before they agree.

No argument there! Barts1a | Talk to me | Yell at me | Merry Christmas to all! 23:23, 27 December 2010 (UTC)

@Barts1a - no problem i felt it fair to trawl through the talk page and let everyone who's had an opinion on the matter previous, get involved in the final discussion before we nail the lid shut on this coffin. Wouldn't want to be see to be bias. -- Lil_℧niquℇ №1 ^[talk] 23:18, 27 December 2010 (UTC)

Given the above the user will probably still think that this is bias... Barts1a | Talk to me | Yell at me | Merry Christmas to all! 23:23, 27 December 2010 (UTC)

EditorReviewArchiver: Automatic processing of your editor review

This is an automated message. Your editor review is scheduled to be closed on 13 January 2011 because it will have been open for more than 30 days and inactive for more than 7 days. You can keep it open longer by posting a comment to the review page requesting more input. Adding  to the review page will prevent further automated actions. AnomieBOT ⚡ 14:26, 10 January 2011 (UTC)

Response to Question

I'd just ignore it. If they revert you don't revert them back though. N419 BH 01:36, 24 January 2011 (UTC)

Alright. Thanks for that! Barts1a | Talk to me | Yell at me 01:40, 24 January 2011 (UTC)

Team Fortress 2 related vandalism...

I just noticed there is a vandalism spree occuring which involves changing various Hat descriptions to Team Fortress 2 related descriptions (Stout Shako: Often traded for 2 refined (A reference to the Team Fortress 2 internet meme "Demopan"), Ushanka: often worn whilst killing tiny cowards (Reference to Heavy Weapons Guy (Playable character in game) and so on...). I would like to request that the current page protection be extended to indefinate due to this.

Addition: I just caught and undid this Barts1a | Talk to me | Yell at me 23:57, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

I'm watching it. Remember, 1RR (That's three, technically a breach of your restrictions). N419 BH 00:51, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

It's from different IPs/users... and it's being bragged about here. I think that in this case as I was clearly removing deliberate attempts to compromise the integrity of the encyclopedia It'll be fine. Barts1a | Talk to me | Yell at me 00:56, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

Yes, hence "technically" and not of any ill intent. Just keep in mind you're on thin ice and some people might try to use these kinds of technicalities against you. N419 BH 00:59, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

I'll keep that in mind. Thanks! Barts1a | Talk to me | Yell at me 01:15, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

Block

Hi, I noticed you've blocked IP:71.0.215.177 before. He's up to his old tricks; vandalising pages because of some bizarre philosophical issue he has, but refuses to discuss. Any chance of a good, old-fashioned, perma-ban? Thanks for your time, Stalwart111 (talk) 04:19, 17 February 2011 (UTC).

Bart is not an admin and we don't permaban IP addresses unless it is absolutely necessary. Materialscientist dealt a month long block. Killiondude (talk) 07:15, 17 February 2011 (UTC)

Wow... This is the... 4th time I have been confused for an admin... There really should be a userbox for this. Barts1a | Talk to me | Yell at me 10:13, 18 February 2011 (UTC)

Request indefinate protection of Hat

The TF2 vandals are back... Barts1a | Talk to me | Yell at me 01:20, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

Done. You might want to next time drop word at Wikipedia:Administrator intervention against vandalism instead. Tabercil (talk) 01:32, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

Look up. I cannot edit noticeboards such as WP:AIV Barts1a | Talk to me | Yell at me 01:33, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

Oh... nevermind then. Tabercil (talk) 01:46, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

I just noticed that the protection expired, then was hastily put back on again. I see NO EXCUSES for not putting on PERMANENT semi-protection. Clearly the vandals will continue vandalizing the article unless they are PERMANENTLY unable to. Why are you mucking around with temporary protection where indefinite is clearly called for and there are no reasons not to indefinitely protect. Barts1a | Talk to me | Yell at me 00:29, 1 March 2011 (UTC)

We don't indefinitely protect the vast majority of articles. Generally speaking, indefinite semi-protection is only applied in cases of regular sockpuppet targets (ex. The Lion King), userspace requests (ex. User:N419BH), or articles with recurrent BLP issues. Run of the mill vandalism we try to use the minimum amount of semi. This is likely a coordinated vandalism spree from an external website. They'll eventually get bored and find a new target. N419 BH 02:11, 1 March 2011 (UTC)

The Ultimate Koopa is being uncivil again...

No prizes for guessing where...

The edit history may need a few edit summaries removed... Barts1a | Talk to me | Yell at me 06:11, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

Also: I have left them a friendly warning about civility http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3AThe_Ultimate_Koopa&action=historysubmit&diff=422098739&oldid=420363175 Barts1a | Talk to me | Yell at me 06:12, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

Block notices

As far as I can recall, WP:BLANKING hasn't changed (for any length of time with consensus) in years. You can't remove declined unblock requests, but you can remove the block notice itself. The notice is there for the benefit of the person being blocked, and if they remove it, we can assume that they've seen it. --Onorem ♠Dil 00:17, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

It seems that WP:BLANKING needs to be updated as you clearly CANNOT remove active block notices as per this edit summary. Barts1a | Talk to me | Yell at me 01:19, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

I disagree. I think that some users (including admins) just need to be reminded of it more often. I can't say that I've been part of or watched every conversation on the topic, but every one I've seen over the last few years has come to the same consensus. It's not something I'd edit war over, but it is something that I'd argue for in any discussion I can find. Block notices aren't supposed to be a scarlet letter. --Onorem ♠Dil 01:29, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

This is true for when a block is NOT active. But when it IS active the notice needs to stay on the page to provide a reason as to why a user cannot edit to anyone who stumbles onto the user talk page. Barts1a | Talk to me | Yell at me 03:47, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

When you edit their talk page a notice that the user is blocked will appear. Checking their contributions will also reveal this. So from that perspective a talk page block notice is redundant. N419 BH 03:52, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

Block notices can be removed unless they are ArbCom imposed; WP:BLANKING was recently updated to clarify this. --Jezebel'sPonyo ^{bons mots} 14:38, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

Response to Question

Generally speaking, users have wide latitude over their own userspace. Deleting or otherwise removing a message is taken as evidence that said message has been received and read. As such, it's permissible for any editor to remove information from their userspace. Edit warring over it really isn't a good idea.

As for a RFC/U, it seems as though you are not the only one expressing concerns over the user's editing and civility. I would ignore the other editor and remove their talk page from your watchlist. Let others file a RFC/U should that be determined to be necessary. N419 BH 02:04, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for that advice! Barts1a | Talk to me | Yell at me 02:14, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

Quick message

Saw your feeling down in the dumps , i get like that sometimes. Whats up? Your a great editor and i hope you stick around :) User:Goldblooded ^{(Return Fire)} 20:37, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for the concern. But the damage has already been done. I was ignored when I was trying to report a SERIOUS problem involving a REPEAT VANDAL with THREE FINAL WARNINGS relating to the SAME PATTERN OF VANDALISM that got them the warnings in the first place. This has proved to me that Wikipedia is now nothing more than an anarchy and I have no desire to remain here at all anymore. Barts1a | Talk to me | Yell at me 11:42, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

Dont feel bitter mate , ive felt like that before on here but i came back to prove them wrong and that i am the compedent editor that i am today. Ive noticed youve been on here for a long time and some of your edits are great , and you also have some great ideas- i saw your complaints page and i "borrowed" some of the aspects from it; i think you have the potential to be a decent editor; what are your interests?

Also, you say you were trying to report the vandal, i dont see three warnings (unless of course they reverted them) but what was he doing, and were you banned instead or something? Hope you stick around. User:Goldblooded ^{(Return Fire)} 16:59, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

The user has TWO edit warring warnings from the SAME MONTH and one FINAL WARNING from the SAME MONTH AS THE EDIT WARRING WARNINGS And yet they somehow escaped being blocked despite BLATANTLY IGNORING THE WARNINGS and CONTINUING TO DISRUPT WIKIPEDIA even to this day they continue to vandalize by inserting false information into articles. I NEED an explanation as to why the rules DO NOT APPLY to this person before I even consider returning! Barts1a | Talk to me | Signing off for good. 08:12, 20 October 2011 (UTC)

Really they is no need to retire over this small matter, as i said i've had much worst and ive bounched back in the end- i guess we have to move on. At any rate i can sense your frustration so I have reported him[3] as a vandalism only account; and well see what the resutls are; although he hasnt been active for a couple of weeks. But if you can feel free to put a word against him on the boards. Perhaps you could post a longer disccusion on the AVI boards? User:Goldblooded ^{(Return Fire)} 13:15, 21 October 2011 (UTC)

Restriction one above: "I am under a few editing restrictions for the time being; namely: I am not editing any noticeboards" Barts1a | Talk to me | Signing off for good. 06:17, 22 October 2011 (UTC)

The way they brushed off the AIV report has just made my blood boil. It is going to take some SERIOUS convincing to get me back after how they dropped the ball by labelling the vandal as a "Good faith editor". I will now ONLY come back if a REASONABLE explanation is given as to how THIS VANDAL HAS A CLEAN BLOCK LOG! AND I will need to have ALL OF MY RESTRICTIONS LIFTED as an apology for how they have mishandled this BLATANTLY OBVIOUS VANDAL!

Well i suppose some of his edits could of been classed as good faith but i was rather peeved that the admin whinged at me for assuming bad faith. (Wtf?) Although i guess thats the name of the game , you dont give up and leave you have to prove yourself even more; for example Churchill during the 1930s desperately tried to warn everyone about hitler's intentions and noone really listened to him; even though he knew he was right but he came back and was the very symbol of british defiance and became one of the most admired men of the 20th century. In a lesser way this situation were in now is pretty simular. Besides who really cares about that guy anyway, hes obviously a lesser element so why get so worked up about it ? User:Goldblooded ^{(Return Fire)} 13:06, 22 October 2011 (UTC)

Before the AIV discussion was removed rather hastily there was a suggestion to report them to WP:ANI. Perhaps we could try that avenue and see what happens? Barts1a | Talk to me | Signing off for good. 22:42, 22 October 2011 (UTC)

I suppose you could raise it over there, but then again it would probably be the same result, especially considering the fact that it happened a month or so ago now , and some of his edits werent exactly vandalism; they werent constructive but they could of been interpreteted as good faith edits. Besides , as i said previously why does it really matter? User:Goldblooded ^{(Talk/Discuss)}^(Complain) 10:38, 23 October 2011 (UTC)

I can't raise it per editing restriction one and it matters to me because of the precedent set in regards to how vandalism by [airquotes]"new"[/airquotes] users will go unpunished and because somehow four months is NOT enough time to make oneself familiar with the rules. Thanks to this precedent I have seen that Wikipedia will only go downhill with regards to vandalism punishment rates. We may not be at anarchy now but this is an EXTREMELY slippery slope Wikipedia is sliding down and I do not want to be anywhere near this project when anarchy does arrive and it WILL it is not stopped soon by writing the wrongs and removing the precedent. Barts1a | Talk to me | Signing off for good. 13:00, 23 October 2011 (UTC)

Also: They continue to exhibit almost willful ignorance and WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT behavior in their editing Barts1a | Talk to me | Signing off for good. 13:01, 23 October 2011 (UTC) Well i dont think hes be on for a while , he may of got bored and quit anyway. While i do agree that from time to time admins make a mistake or misinterpret something etc; at the end of the day its what makes us human i guess. So are you banned from posting on the ANI? User:Goldblooded ^{(Talk/Discuss)}^(Complain) 13:35, 23 October 2011 (UTC)

Long story short: Yes. I am banned from editing ANY noticeboard. Can you at least try posting there about this guy? The message itself suggested that if it is taken to ANI a discussion will take place as to what to do with the guy and even aknowledges the edits were disruptive. Please at least try. You have to be in it to win it and I cannot be in it at all Barts1a | Talk to me | Signing off for good. 22:36, 23 October 2011 (UTC)

So you want me to post on there? Since im a nice guy i will, but what do you want me to say? Or you could state your arguement here (or request an unblock) and ill post it on there for you. User:Goldblooded ^{(Talk/Discuss)}^(Complain) 17:38, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

"ADKIc3mAnX's contributions seem to indicate that there is no intent of contributing positively to the encyclopedia and repeated cases of WP:IDHT in regards to edit warring notices and final warnings show that this user does not intend to have positive interactions with the Wikipedia community, however despite heavily disrupting the encyclopedia in September, ignoring multiple warnings and indirectly causing the retirement of barts1a they somehow have a clean block log. I am not seeking a punative block, I just want administrators to acknowledge they handled this case very poorly and keep a close eye on this user as they were able to vandalize and edit war without consequence before and as such are extremely likely to do it again. Barts1a | Talk to me | Signing off for good. 23:03, 24 October 2011 (UTC)"

Also: Thank you for doing this for me. Barts1a | Talk to me | Signing off for good. 23:03, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

Hey there mate , im sorry to say but it was advised for me not to raise that issue (afterall i already have posted on the avv boards previously) perhaps you could let your mentor know or even User:Worm That Turned he is reknown for being a great adminstrator and in my opinion among the best on here , i had a conversation with him on my talk page here User_talk:Goldblooded#Suggestion and also on his page here User_talk:Worm_That_Turned#Reporting_on_behalf_of_another_editor hope this helps :) User:Goldblooded ^{(Talk/Discuss)}^(Complain) 15:51, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

Are you still quitting bart? User:Goldblooded ^{(Talk/Discuss)}^(Complain) 11:53, 6 November 2011 (UTC)

Yes. Barts1a | Talk to me | Signing off for good. 01:26, 11 November 2011 (UTC)

Why though who really cares about that guy anyway? He hasnt been on lately anyway so it wouldnt of mattered whether he was banned or not. User:Goldblooded ^{(Talk/Discuss)}^(Complain) 15:20, 11 November 2011 (UTC)

I have two reasons for quitting: 1. NOBODY is willing to take me seriously when I try to report a legitimate threat to the encyclopedia and 2. I know that wikipedia's rules are not consistently enforced and as such I may be blocked for doing the right thing due to selective enforcement of a non-rule at any time. Barts1a | Talk to me | Signing off for good. 23:26, 11 November 2011 (UTC)

Well buddy sometimes we gotta pick ourselves up, ive been in your shoes both in real life on wikipedia; why dont you SHOW those people how well your wikipedia skills are? Prove yourself to them , theres no good running away mate. As i said a historical example would be that noone listened to Churchill or took him seriously but he was later put into a paramount position and is today one of the worlds most admired men and a british legend. And concerning your blocking fears, ive been blocked on wikipedia in the past for things that (personally) i dont feel were totally fair but theres no point feeling bitter, as i said show them you know better than they do. heard of the slogan, keep calm and carry on? User:Goldblooded ^{(Talk/Discuss)}^(Complain) 23:33, 11 November 2011 (UTC)

Thank you...

...for assuming good faith on this. I redid what I meant to do after your cleanup. -- Blanchardb -^{Me•MyEars•MyMouth}- timed 13:53, 22 October 2011 (UTC)

You're welcome. I usually AGF unless the person's vandalism spree calls for a reality check. Barts1a | Talk to me | Signing off for good. 22:39, 22 October 2011 (UTC)

OI!

This is just plain uncalled for and is EXTREMELY UNPROFESSIONAL behavior, especially from an arbcom member! As you know I cannot do a damn thing about it but I can still point out that it may come across as A little bit uncivil. You might want to try focusing more on content and less on contributors! I understand that this outburst may be stress related due to the arbcom position but just try to be a bit more restrained in the future K? Barts1a | Talk to me | Signing off for good. 23:22, 23 October 2011 (UTC)

Hi - please don't post this sort of stuff on my talkpage - thanks - Off2riorob (talk) 23:28, 23 October 2011 (UTC)

Alright. I will refrain from posting friendly reminders on your talk-page in the future. But at least try to listen to what people are saying. Arbcom =/= invincible, try to remember that! Barts1a | Talk to me | Signing off for good. 23:34, 23 October 2011 (UTC)

Barts1a, what on earth makes you think Rob's a member of Arbcom? Elen of the Roads (talk) 23:40, 23 October 2011 (UTC)
- I can remember Off2riorob being directly involved with arbcom elections... Now that my memory is a bit clearer I can remember he is the guy who almost forced me to un-volenteer as an election helper and as a result of that and the behavour that triggered this, he went down in flames. Sorry about the confusion, my memory is a bit hazy after how long I have been away. That still doesn't make his behavour acceptable by any stretch of the imagination. Barts1a | Talk to me | Signing off for good. 04:29, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

Keep Calm and Carry On

You should focus on your behavior and not that of other editors. There are plenty of editors who can deal with vandalism on Wikipedia, and considering your history with the more administrative side of wikipedia (I.e. notice boards), it's probably best if you focused on the other things that you are good at. The kind of outbursts on this page are pretty unacceptable as they demonstrate a preoccupation with other editor's editing habits. You should have good faith that the administrator who rejected blocking this user had a good reason to do so, rather than assume that you know better. We generally do not block accounts for vandalism unless the vandalism is current and we have reason to believe it will continue. This is because blocks are preventative, not punitive. N^oformation ^Talk 05:38, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

Well how come the vandal didn't get blocked while they were vandalizing when I was trying to report it but NOBODY listened? When I tried to report that vandal on IRC (Due to the noticeboard ban) I got a response that amounted to "LOL, UMAD" and nothing else, they dismissed my legitimate concerns out of a blatant bias against me, not ONE person bothered to even LOOK at the vandal's contributions. I NEED some form of apology for this BLATANT disregard for the rules before I can resume to work within them. If you are unhappy with my response you should have thought of this before you started bashing me for no reason when I was trying to report a legitimate concern about an editor who was BLATANTLY vandalizing the encyclopedia and to this day shows NO INTENTION WHATSOEVER of contributing positively to the encyclopedia! Barts1a | Talk to me | Signing off for good. 06:08, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

And I'm telling you that you need to calm down and not worry about other editors. Your complaining about other editors on this page may be considered WP:DISRUPTIVE and is not constructive to the encyclopedia. Please stop. N^oformation ^Talk 06:30, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

If this is disruptive then why was an obviously more disruptive activity not classed as such? Are we being biased against existing editors in favor of the [airquotes] "newbies" [/airquotes] now? Barts1a | Talk to me | Signing off for good. 06:46, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

Quick Message...

Well buddy sometimes we gotta pick ourselves up, ive been in your shoes both in real life on wikipedia; why dont you SHOW those people how well your wikipedia skills are? Prove yourself to them , theres no good running away mate. As i said a historical example would be that noone listened to Churchill or took him seriously but he was later put into a paramount position and is today one of the worlds most admired men and a british legend. And concerning your blocking fears, ive been blocked on wikipedia in the past for things that (personally) i dont feel were totally fair but theres no point feeling bitter, as i said show them you know better than they do. heard of the slogan, keep calm and carry on? User:Goldblooded ^{(Talk/Discuss)}^(Complain) 23:33, 11 November 2011 (UTC)

Alright... you've convinced me to come back. Barts1a | Talk to me | Yell at me 23:54, 11 November 2011 (UTC)

Its what i do best :P Glad you decided to stay perhaps i should be your mentor if you'd like? User:Goldblooded ^{(Talk/Discuss)}^(Complain) 23:57, 11 November 2011 (UTC)

I already have a mentor so it would be best to talk it over with them first Barts1a | Talk to me | Yell at me 00:04, 12 November 2011 (UTC)

Hmm well provided hes still around and willing to help you out i guess i could be a sub mentor, Like for instance my mentor is officially User:Lionelt but sometimes i ask User:Worm that turned for help depending on the situation and sometimes i ask a wikifreind on here or whatever. At any rate, what kind of edits do you specialise in? User:Goldblooded ^{(Talk/Discuss)}^(Complain) 00:12, 12 November 2011 (UTC)

My main edits are stuff like this Barts1a | Talk to me | Yell at me 00:25, 12 November 2011 (UTC)

So i guess tech related edits? With me as you probably guessed its things such as politics and history, but yeah as i said before good to have you back on the wikipedia team, and feel free to let me know if you need any help or support or merely just a WP:Third Opinion im on here regulary :) User:Goldblooded ^{(Talk/Discuss)}^(Complain) 00:29, 12 November 2011 (UTC)

November 2011

Good work on the Ipad 2 edit, although I had to undo your following edit there -- the Ipad 2 release date of eight months ago was correct (and referenced in the article) -- you'd tagged it as speculation that had to be cleaned up. If you'd like any further help, contact me on my user talk page or put a {{help me}} template up on your own user talk page and someone will be along to help you. :) Banaticus (talk) 11:48, 16 November 2011 (UTC)

re User:M1$CR3ANT

FYI, I have reported this editor to AN/I. See Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#User:M1$CR3ANT --220 of ^Borg 03:51, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

Fisting talk page removal

If it had just been your request and there had been no response, you could have withdrawn it, but after you made the request, one admin commented on it, and another admin responded to it. Those comments must be preserved.--Bbb23 (talk) 01:13, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

The response was very clear. No discussion merit existed in that section at all. It had served it's purpose and was no longer needed. I will NOT apologize for removing it as I feel the removal of a useless talk page section was justified. Barts1a | Talk to me | Yell at me 01:40, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

I wasn't asking you to apologize. I was just taking the trouble to explain my reversion to you. Oh, well, no good deed goes unpunished.--Bbb23 (talk) 01:44, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

Not on wikipedia it doesn't. Punishing good deeds seems to be a specialty here... especially among admins. Barts1a | Talk to me | Yell at me 01:47, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

Please note that the comment above this is intended as a joke and should not be taken seriously. Barts1a | Talk to me | Yell at me 01:47, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

ANI notice

Hello. This message is being sent to inform you that there is currently a discussion at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. Thank you.

Given your noticeboard restriction, you may wish to either request explicit permission to post on ANI in this instance, or else to post your replies here and have someone copy them over. A fluffernutter is a sandwich! (talk) 18:30, 3 March 2012 (UTC)

Need some copyvio/CC-BY-SA untangling

Moved from WP:ANI Nobody Ent 19:16, 3 March 2012 (UTC)

Currently at AfD, we have Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/March 7 Apple Media Event. The article, March 7 Apple Media Event, was created on 1st March, 2012, by Hghyux (talk · contribs), by copying content over from Wikipedia talk:Articles for creation/March 7 2012 Apple media event, created a day earlier by Barts1a (talk · contribs), and slightly re-wording it (no mention of where he obtained the content). The (copied) article is now at AfD based on its merits as an article, but in the meantime, Barts1a was told repeatedly on his talk page that he is in the wrong to say that his copyright was violated, including by his mentor, N419BH (talk · contribs), who has threatened to have him blocked if he continues to argue that that is the case. Now, my inexpert understanding of copyright is that this is very much untrue, and that attribution is required in some form, but again, I'm not an expert. I'd appreciate if someone with a bit more expertise than me could examine:

Whether Hghyux's unattributed copying of another editor's work was a violation of copyright
Whether Barts1a has been given correct information regarding his rights as the originator of the content, especially by his mentor
How to fix the histories of the two pages to fix this apparent copyvio (on my urging, Hghyux has requested a histmerge of the two articles, but I'd prefer to have some more expert eyes checking it and carrying it out)
Whether Hghyux or Barts1a has violated our behavioral guidelines in their subsequent clash. A fluffernutter is a sandwich! (talk) 18:24, 3 March 2012 (UTC)

Side note: Barts1a is currently restricted from posting on ANI. I've advised him to either request an exemption from that for this thread, or to post his replies on his talk page and have them copied over. Are there any objections to him being allowed to participate directly in this thread by editing ANI? A fluffernutter is a sandwich! (talk) 18:32, 3 March 2012 (UTC)

Technically, the copy-paste page move is a copyvio, as the article history has not been carried over. However, such moves are not uncommon as the "move" function is rather infrequently used by the majority of users. The proper course of action was for Barts1a to politely educate the other user regarding the move function for his next page move, and to request an administrator perform a history merge. My strongly-worded comments and blocking threat are a direct response to his immediate assumption of bad faith, his lack of civility in dealing with the matter, and his shouting at the other editor accusing him of copyright violation. Such a response violates WP:AGF, WP:CIVIL, WP:NPA, and accusing another of copyright violation could be perceived as a legal threat. N419 BH 18:48, 3 March 2012 (UTC)

Re-read what you just wrote - you agreed that it is a copyvio, but you also said that calling it a copyvio is a legal threat. No, that's not the case. If it's a copyvio, identifying it as one is appropriate. Doing it nicely is ideal, but doing it curtly is not surprising for someone who's just been told that our copyright policies aren't true and he has no right to expect attribution for his work. Could Barts1a have spoken more nicely? Yes. Could everyone else in this entire situation have tried to fact-check their assertions before claiming them to be true? Yes. Would many users react in horror to being told they didn't hold the rights to their work they thought they did and they should drop the stick right now or be disciplined? Yep. A fluffernutter is a sandwich! (talk) 18:59, 3 March 2012 (UTC)

Yes, technically it is a copyvio, but for a user who has been on wiki for barely a month they likely don't know about the move button. They saw writing they thought should be an article and moved it the only way they knew how, with copy and paste. The proper response was for Barts to say "here's how you do a page move for next time" and to request a history merge. To assume bad faith and start shouting is wholly inappropriate. N419 BH 19:20, 3 March 2012 (UTC)

I really think ANI is not a great place to bring this. Rather than try to work out a way for Barts1a to comment here, a much better idea, IMHO, is to nip this thread in the bud, and continue the discussion on Barts1a's talk page. --Floquenbeam (talk) 18:51, 3 March 2012 (UTC)
If this posting brings more expert commentary to Barts1a's talk page to sort the issue out, that would be great and I would be happy to see this thread closed at that point. A fluffernutter is a sandwich! (talk) 18:59, 3 March 2012 (UTC)
Second that. Creating a derivative from Bartsa1's contribution without crediting him is clearly a breach of Bartsa1's copyright, which he retains under the Creative Commons license, and he is entitled to say that if he wants. NLT does not cover advising another editor that they have breached someone's copyright. Yes, he could probably have said it nicer, but if the other editor developed a habit of doing it (hopefully they won't, it was a genuine misunderstanding), they'd get blocked for it. Elen of the Roads (talk) 19:10, 3 March 2012 (UTC)

So Bartsa1,

you are quite right, the Creative Commons license means that you retain copyright, but release most of the controls provided certain conditions are met. The licensee (in this case, anyone on the internet who wishes to use the content) may copy, distribute, display and perform the work and make derivative works based on it - but only if they give the author or licensor attribution to "the best of [one's] ability using the information available." On Wikipedia, this is normally managed by the edit history, so one way would be to use the move tool, which takes the edit history with the article. Another way might be to copy/paste and credit the original author in the edit summary.

Now, be honest, could you have explained this better to the other guy? If he's new, he needs to know, because if he keeps copying without attribution he'll end up blocked. Did what you say help him to understand why that is the case. Elen of the Roads (talk) 19:22, 3 March 2012 (UTC)

Note: leaving aside the CIVIL and related questions for the time being, note that the pages can't be history merged because Bartsa1 continued to work on his draft after the copying took place. As such, the appropriate way to document the copying is through a {{copied}} tag, which I will now apply. This should take care of the copyright issues. --ThaddeusB (talk) 19:27, 3 March 2012 (UTC)

I am glad that this was eventually sorted out. In the meantime I would like to request a new mentor. One that does NOT threaten me with blocks because I call a spade a spade and a copyvio a copyvio. Barts1a / What did I actually do right? / What did I do wrong this time? 22:58, 3 March 2012 (UTC)

Furthermore, I have given an apology and an explanation on Hghyux's talk page. Both of which have been accepted, they have also offered an apology for their actions which was also accepted. Barts1a / What did I actually do right? / What did I do wrong this time? 23:35, 3 March 2012 (UTC)

I just noticed on ANI. It says that this discussion was moved to the talk page of a currently blocked editor. You might want to reword that... Barts1a / What did I actually do right? / What did I do wrong this time? 23:11, 3 March 2012 (UTC)

Sorry, misunderstood an earlier statement, fixed. Nobody Ent 00:47, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

Thanks. Barts1a / What did I actually do right? / What did I do wrong this time? 22:07, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

Mentoring

If you're still in the market for a new mentor you might want to talk to User:Worm_That_Turned. He's an active mentor and I've seen him give great advice and help a lot of Wikipedians. N^oformation ^Talk 07:11, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

I'll look into that. Thanks! Barts1a / What did I actually do right? / What did I do wrong this time? 07:57, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

Talkback

Hello, Barts1a. You have new messages at Worm That Turned's talk page.
Message added 08:57, 5 March 2012 (UTC). You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{Talkback}} or {{Tb}} template.

Worm^TT · (talk) 08:57, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

Hi Barts1a! Looks like you've got yourself a new mentor! I've created you a mentorship page at User:Worm That Turned/Adopt/Barts1a, which already has the first lesson there. I've also left you a couple of questions at User talk:Worm That Turned/Adopt/Barts1a, which would be great if you could answer at some point. Glad to have you aboard! Worm^TT · (talk) 10:38, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

That was fast. Hopefully Worm's active approach can help you more than my passive approach did. Good luck. N419 BH 06:07, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

Thanks. The fact that it was so fast gives me confidence that a few people still see hope in me becoming a productive editor. Barts1a / What did I actually do right? / What did I do wrong this time? 06:22, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

You're already a productive editor and under Worm's guidance you're only going to get better. Don't be so hard on yourself. One of the hardest things to learn in life is how to graciously accept criticism - while you still have some to learn you're already off to a good start. N^oformation ^Talk 09:11, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

Shouting?

There's never ever any need to SHOUT IN ALL CAPS. I'd advise you revert that edit, post haste. Worm^TT · (talk) 11:45, 30 March 2012 (UTC)

I've removed most of the allcaps. I won't be removing the comment though. AFAIK an AfD can be withdrawn by the person that started it regardless of how many votes in either direction were cast. Barts1a / Talk to me / Help me improve 11:49, 30 March 2012 (UTC)

Thanks, that's fine for me. The relevant policy is WP:WITHDRAWN - which says that after substansive discussion it doesn't work and it shouldn't be used as a shortcut to stifle discussion. Other people have voted delete, so it's ineligible for a speedy keep. Either way, withdrawing and closing is inappropriate too, someone else should have assessed it and closed it. Worm^TT · (talk) 11:52, 30 March 2012 (UTC)

User_talk:Courcelles recall

Hello. User:BarkingFish has backed out of the recall as the initiator and asked that someone else fill his position. Could you please consider taking the role as the initiator rather than a certifier? I am not even sure a new initiator is needed at the moment, but if a recall were to progress it would probably be less controversial if there were someone in that role.--v/r - T P 20:40, 9 April 2012 (UTC)

I noticed that Silverseren has taken the role. Barts1a / Talk to me / Help me improve 22:59, 9 April 2012 (UTC)

Could you also check your email on this matter? Worm^TT · (talk) 20:43, 9 April 2012 (UTC)

I've read the email. Food for thought... Barts1a / Talk to me / Help me improve 22:59, 9 April 2012 (UTC)

Whack!!!

Whack!

You've been whacked with a wet trout.

Don't take this too seriously. Someone just wants to let you know that you did something silly.

For this, after this. Doc talk 05:02, 11 April 2012 (UTC)

Whack!

You've been whacked with a wet trout.

Don't take this too seriously. Someone just wants to let you know that you did something silly.

Doc, you beat me to it. Incredible. 28bytes (talk) 05:06, 11 April 2012 (UTC)

I think what they're trying to say is that after pushing hard for a recall, which in essence is saying to someone that you no longer think them qualified to hold their advanced permissions, a sincere note would be more appropriate than a simpering cute kitten message. AniMate 05:39, 11 April 2012 (UTC)

It seems to have been received well enough though. Barts1a / Talk to me / Help me improve 06:43, 11 April 2012 (UTC)

Just because Courcelles has good grace doesn't mean it wasn't inappropriate. As has been quite a lot of your behaviour over the past few days. I have some things we need to discuss - would you prefer by email, or at your adoption page? Worm^TT · (talk) 07:21, 11 April 2012 (UTC)

Adoption page please. While you are there do you mind grading the test I did a few weeks back? Barts1a / Talk to me / Help me improve 08:13, 11 April 2012 (UTC)

(edit conflict) One of my very favorite expressions I picked up when living in central Massachusetts was, "I wouldn't piss on him if he was on fire." Seriously, just think about what that expression means! Now, if you ever happen to come across me somewhere on the wiki and I happen to be ablaze: at least I know you might pee on me to help put the fire out! And not just watch me burn! Doc talk 07:29, 11 April 2012 (UTC)

Gravedancing

While I appreciate the endorsement of my block, gravedancing on that user's talk page is not cool. Toddst1 (talk) 03:42, 13 April 2012 (UTC)

OK; I may have gravedanced a LITTLE but then I gave some helpful advice in this edit. Could you please correct my judgement if it was not helpful. Barts1a / Talk to me / Help me improve 04:14, 13 April 2012 (UTC)

Also: I think they may have actually taken my advice. The permanent 1RR restriction and harshest WP:CIVIL restriction were readily agreed to. Barts1a / Talk to me / Help me improve 04:18, 13 April 2012 (UTC)

*

Thanks! - filelake shoe 13:24, 13 April 2012 (UTC)

Hello, Barts1a. You have new messages at Fry1989's talk page.
You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{Talkback}} or {{Tb}} template.

AfD and speedy deletion

Actually, an article at AfD can be speedy deleted. I've done it a few times. "When the nominated page unambiguously falls under at least one of the criteria for speedy deletion. Speedy deletion criteria criterion G10 (attack page) or criterion G12 (copyright violation) often result on early closes under the criteria for speedy deletion, but all other speedy deletion criteria - if they unambiguously apply - can result in an early closure as "Speedy delete". That an article has reached the step of a deletion discussion is irrelevant - it is not necessary to wait until the end of the discussion period to delete content that would have been otherwise speedily deleted." From WP:Deletion process#Early closure. Peridon (talk) 19:13, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

Wow... you learn something new everyday. Thanks! Barts1a / Talk to me / Help me improve 03:33, 21 April 2012 (UTC)

I wholeheartidly accept...

this...

I would like to apologize for labelling you as a ... "R word".

I think you are on your way to being a real superstar editor. Thanks for being so grown-up about this whole "R word" incident. Luke 19 Verse 27 (talk) 05:09, 23 April 2012 (UTC)

Thank you. It's nice to get closure on these things! :D Barts1a / Talk to me / Help me improve 08:20, 23 April 2012 (UTC)

Notability of C-SPAN Bus program

Hello - I posted on the talk page of this article about the notability tag; Any comments, please feel free to make them... KConWiki (talk) 11:38, 23 April 2012 (UTC)

Hi - COuld you check the article and talk page again when you have a minute? Thanks KConWiki (talk) 01:28, 24 April 2012 (UTC)

Looks good. Tag removed. Barts1a / Talk to me / Help me improve 02:26, 24 April 2012 (UTC)

Welcome to WikiProject Flight Simulation

Welcome to the WikiProject. You can help by promoting the group (templates can be found on the project page) and helping to complete our targets which can also be found on the project page. Oddbodz (talk) 20:03, 3 May 2012 (UTC)

Barnstar!

The Worm That Turned Adoption Course Barnstar

Congratulations on completing the course Barts1a! You clearly have a great knowledge of wikipedia and have the ability to be a great wikipedian. You know where I am if you need any help, and hopefully you won't get yourself stuck in situations again! Worm^TT · (talk) 12:11, 10 May 2012 (UTC)

Sorry it took so long! Worm^TT · (talk) 12:11, 10 May 2012 (UTC)

It's OK! I just went "Colon Capital-O'. :P Barts1a / Talk to me / Help me improve 01:05, 11 May 2012 (UTC)

Lugnuts

I reverted your change to his user page. I agree that putting a blank orange bar up isn't the best decision he's ever made, but it isn't against any guideline or policy. If he feels like putting up a little show of defiance, let it be.—Kww(talk) 02:44, 22 May 2012 (UTC)

Fair enough. I just feel that with the orange bar they will slowly work their way towards a full imitation new messages bar two words at a time. Barts1a / Talk to me / Help me improve 04:57, 22 May 2012 (UTC)

Quite likely. I'll keep an eye on it, and block if it seems appropriate.—Kww(talk) 10:54, 22 May 2012 (UTC)

So nothing to hide then?! Diffs are still there for the ANI. Thanks. Lugnuts (talk) 08:52, 22 May 2012 (UTC)

I would STRONGLY recommend AGAINST going anywhere NEAR ANI for at least the next year or so because of what you did on your userpage. You were made aware of the rule about that bar several times and you continued to blatantly break it. As such if you DO open any discussion about this there is a 95% chance that it will come back and bite you on the ass resulting in you being indef blocked. Barts1a / Talk to me / Help me improve 12:31, 22 May 2012 (UTC)

Microsoft Flight

Hey Barts; giving you a heads up that I've undone your removal of information that Microsoft Flight is a successor to Microsoft Flight Simulator. The FAQ for Microsoft Flight states as the answer to the first question that Flight "brings a fresh perspective to Microsoft’s long-standing Flight Simulator franchise." N419 BH 07:28, 2 June 2012 (UTC)

Article rating

Hi. Please can you link me the policy that states that the article creator CANNOT rate an article? I've created several thousand biography articles, and this has never come up before. I look forward to hearing from you. Lugnuts (talk) 06:50, 7 June 2012 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure Lugnuts is right, the only levels that require peer review is GA and FA (not A, interestingly). As such, any editor, including the author can rate it. Individual wikiprojects may have different ways of doing things, but in general that's my take. Worm^TT(talk) 07:23, 7 June 2012 (UTC)

ANI

You have been blocked from editing for violating Wikipedia policy. If you believe this block is unjustified, you may contest this block by replying here on your talk page by adding the text {{unblock|your reason here}}. You may also email the blocking administrator or any administrator from this list instead, or submit a request for unblock to the Unblock Ticket Request System. Worm^TT(talk) 07:44, 11 June 2012 (UTC)

And so the relentless current of time flows on.... Barts1a / Talk to me / Help me improve 01:41, 12 June 2012 (UTC)

Happy Birthday!!!

Just a happy Birthday message to you, Barts1a, from the Wikipedia Birthday Committee!
Have a great day! //

Happy Birthday, Barts1a! Have a nice day!

--Wikigold96 (talk) 21:56, 17 June 2012 (UTC)

Thanks! Barts1a / Talk to me / Help me improve 22:29, 17 June 2012 (UTC)