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The Bugle: Issue LXIII, May 2011

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Ignatius Gregory Peter VI Shahbaddin

If you may be interested, I've written a short article about Ignatius Gregory Peter VI Shahbaddin with all the refs I know (all the story is however narrated in Italian in the Rabbath vol 2). I suppose that his name Gregory was due to the fact he was bishop of Jerusalem. A ntv (talk) 14:54, 16 July 2011 (UTC)

The Bugle: Issue LXIV, June 2011

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Barnstar!

ܫܠܡܐ Djwilms, I truly admire your work concerning Syriac Christianity. BTW why don't you nominate some of your article? They could easily pass as GA or even FA.--Rafy talk 00:31, 25 July 2011 (UTC)


Thanks very much for your kind words. I will get round to it one of these days, but right at present I am desperately busy trying to get my new book on the Church of the East (link: http://www.eastandwestpublishing.com/forthcoming/the-martyred-church/) out. It will be published in two weeks' time, and I am still making final amendments to the proofs. That's cut down my editing on Wikipedia drastically during the past few months. Any substantial revisions to my stuff will have to wait until the autumn, I'm afraid!

Djwilms (talk) 08:53, 4 August 2011 (UTC)

Hello, I'm very delighted that people like yourself are taking interest in "my" culture (if I may say that). Your book is, as it looks from the discription, one of the most comprehensive work in its field. I'm looking forward to reading it.
By the way, I'm still learning classical Syriac grammar and I might have some difficulties with word choices. the word ܚܠܥܬܐ is used in my native village to describe either something earned or the bride's dowry. Other words that might have the same meaning are ܟܠܝܠܐ, originally means crown but its use is extended to include other meanings.
I think that the Bar Hebraeus' translation will be very interesting for a friend of mine who is doing her PH.D. on a medieval Syriac Orthodox text. b'Shaina wb'Shlama.Rafy talk--12:46, 4 August 2011 (UTC)

New Book!

Hello, Congratulations and thank you for you new book! I'm really looking forward to reading it. Best regards.--Rafy talk 20:35, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

Dear Rafy,
You might have to wait a while! I've just been to amazon.co.uk and amazon.com to order half a dozen copies for friends of mine, and was suprised to discover that it is 'temporarily out of stock'. Considering it only went on sale yesterday, I was amazed. I've just emailed my publishers to find out what is going on. I may be reduced to ordering copies on amazon.fr, where it can still be found.
Now that I've finally got some time on my hands, I'm pressing ahead with a series of new Wikipedia articles on the dioceses of the Syriac Orthodox Church. I'm ploughing through Chabot's French translation of Michael the Syrian (which I need to read for the introduction to my English translation of Bar Hebraeus for Gorgias Press, just so I can estimate how much Bar Hebraeus plagiarised from Michael), and putting the bishops I come across on Wikipedia.
Djwilms (talk) 02:03, 21 September 2011 (UTC)

Augustine Hindi

Hi, a question has been raised concerning Augustine Hindi's year of death. Maybe you can have a look and help out with your expertise. Thanks in advance! --FordPrefect42 (talk) 16:50, 1 October 2011 (UTC)

Et pendant ce temps-là...

Fini, la Martyred Church ! Maintenant je passe à la fr:guerre franco-chinoise ! DW

... le book sur la 中法战争 n’avance pas… "I will shortly be publishing a full-length book…", qu’il disait ! Congratulations quand même. André de StCoeur (talk) 17:27, 30 September 2011 (UTC)

Too late for amazon.fr: "Temporairement en rupture de stock." André de StCoeur (talk) 17:31, 30 September 2011 (UTC)

Yo, Andre,

Thanks for the congratulations. It's also 'temporarily out of stock' on the Anglo-Saxon derivatives of amazon.fr, viz. amazon.co.uk and amazon.com. The publishers seem to have thought that supplying Amazon.co.uk with 10 copies would keep them quiet for a year or two, whereas I have already bought up their entire stock myself, just to give to friends and family. Either they or I don't understand the concept of marketing. For example, they haven't even put a product description on amazon.com yet, even though I have told them more than once that most copies of the book are likely to be bought by Assyrians living in the US and Europe. Perhaps they take the view that there is a limited market for the book, and that those who ARE going to buy it will do so anyway sooner or later and don't need encouragement. That is not a view that I share, but there we are. I don't suppose you want to write a review for me on amazon.fr, do you? I would happily supply you with a glowing tribute (in English).

Ah yes, the book on the Sino-French War. Believe it or not, that is now next on my agenda. When I have recovered my faith in British book marketing, I might offer it to East and West, since they did a good production job on The Martyred Church. If they are not interested, Hong Kong University Press is, so it won't lack for a publisher. The book is very nearly finished (Francois replaced with Oscar throughout), and might even see the light of day next summer. I need to get it done by then anyway, as I have a contract with Gorgias Press to publish an English translation of the Ecclesiastical History of Bar Hebraeus by December 2012.

I was introduced in Hong Kong to a Scottish fellow the other day, who had lived in Taiwan for several years and is very interested in the island's history. By the most extraordinary of coincidences, one of the first topics of conversation he raised was the forts at Tamsui, and their connection with the Sino-French War. The mutual friend who had introduced us said, 'As a matter of fact, David is writing THE book on the Sino-French War.' Such moments happen rarely to me, and I confess that I made the most of it.

Djwilms (talk) 05:53, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

Dioceses of the Syriac Orthodox Church

"The West Syrians envisaged their church as the legitimate patriarchate of Antioch, and appear to have tried to duplicate the hierarchy already existing."

Can you please provide a reference for the above. This will be seriously contested by Syrian Orthodox, who belive theirs is the Orginal Patriarchate.

Also, can you please guide me to books with deatails about the same. 125.22.97.34 (talk) 02:44, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

The Bugle: Issue LXVII, September 2011

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The Bugle: Issue LXVIII, October 2011

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File source problem with File:Capitaine de fregate.jpg

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Isho`yahb II

You did actually spend some time comparing the two versions of the Ishoyahb II article, yes? --Zimriel (talk) 03:11, 5 December 2011 (UTC)

Dear Zimriel (talk),

Sorry if I was hasty. I seem to have done the same thing as you, and inadvertently taken out stuff that could usefully have stayed in (especially the material from Guidi's Chronicle). Let me revisit your earlier edit, and take another look at it. I don't agree with all you say, and I don't think we need to labour the point at such length, but I do agree with you that we need to cast doubt on the authenticity of these so-called 'treaties' between the Christians and the Muslims. I am familiar with Chase Robinson's book, and although he is not always right, he is right on that point.

Give me a couple of days, and I will try to come up with a suitable form of words.

Djwilms (talk) 05:56, 5 December 2011 (UTC)

Syriac vs. Syrian dilemma

Hello, I've been facing some difficulties regarding the usage of Syrian vs. Syriac. In one article a user argued that Syrian should be used instead of Syriac because the latest is a religious name unfit to be used to describe a group of people. Another case, a user argues that Syrian and Syriac are different concepts that shouldn't be wikilinked. Similar problems show up in categories such as Category:Syrian Christians and Category:Syrian saints, that include both historical Eastern and Western Syrians and citizens of the Syrian Arab republic. to remedy this I suggested moving modern Christians of Syria to another category with a more obvious name. Another solution would be to move all archaic Syrian Christian categories to a more distinguishable Syriac ones. Do you have any thoughts on this?--Rafy talk 10:47, 14 December 2011 (UTC)

By the way, if you have some time, could you take a look at Talk:John of Damascus. The conflict in short is that many sources describe him as a "Semite" and "Syrian or Aramean rather than Arab" but Tiamut insists that this is still too ambiguous to have a wikilink to Syriacs.--Rafy talk 10:48, 14 December 2011 (UTC)
Personally, I prefer the term Syrian Orthodox Church, because it has a history of over a millennium. Following the publication of my book on the Nestorians and Chaldeans, I am now working on a book on the history of the Syrian Orthodox and Syrian Catholic Churches. I will call them Jacobites, Syrian Orthodox and Syrian Catholics throughout the book, until we get to the politically correct 21st century. The Jacobite Church has recently officially renamed itself the Syriac Orthdox Church, so out of respect for its wishes, and for the sake of a quiet life, we should probably follow this usage; though I fervently hope that it will eventually change its mind and revert to its old, time-honoured, name. Occasionally I forget and use 'Syrian Orthodox' in my Wikipedia edits, and sometimes get round to changing Syrian to Syriac if I'm feeling politically correct, which isn't often. To tell the truth, I'm not really bothered by these arguments over nomenclature, as they generally generate more heat than light.
I'll have a look at John of Damascus.
Djwilms (talk) 01:36, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

The 3%

Hello,
On 26 September 2008, you quoted Thomazi in Tonkin Affair as writing that, "On the stock exchange on 30 March the 3% fell by three and a half francs; it had only fallen by two and a half francs on the day that war was declared in 1870." Now, I can't quite figure what "the 3%" is. Could you elaborate on that for me, please? Thanks in advance. Best. Président (talk) 04:36, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

I've been puzzled about that too, and I'm afraid I can't help you very much. I've just checked the relevant paragraph of Thomazi (p. 260), and the French text reads as follows:
A la Bourse, le 30 mars, le 3 % baisse de 3 fr. 50 ; il n’avait baissé que de 2 fr. 50 le jour de la déclaration de guerre en 1870.
I'm pretty sure my translation is correct, but what 'the 3%' might be, I have no idea, I'm afraid.
Djwilms (talk) 06:26, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

The Bugle: Issue LXIX, November 2011

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Dioceses' maps

I have just created two maps showing historical dioceses of the Church of the East and the Syrian Orthodox Church.

I'm not quite sure about the accuracy of the area of missionary activities in the first one. I read somewhere about supposed activities in the Philipines, Korea and Japan but the reliability of those sources is questionable. The second map needs some polishing. I also couldn't locate some names such as ʿArqa, Arzun, Gargar... By the way I would be glad to help out in case you have any requests or suggestion about other maps or diagrams.--Rafy talk 22:13, 11 January 2012 (UTC)

Hi Rafi,
That's a great start! I'm delighted to find that someone else is interested in mapping Nestorian and Jacobite dioceses. I have produced several detailed maps of the dioceses of the Church of the East in my recent book The Martyred Church, which will give you the information you need for the Nestorian map. If you don't yet have access to that book, I would be happy to email you the pdf. files of the maps. Email me at davidwilmshurst@yahoo.com and I'll get back to you in a day or so.
I am also putting together a detailed map showing the dioceses of the Syrian Orthodox Church, to go in what I hope will be a companion volume on the Jacobites (perhaps to be called The Church of Severus), which I can let you have when it's ready. I too have not yet been able to localise ʿArqa, though I know where Arzun and Gargar are. I have no doubt I'll get there in the end.
By the way, I like your ain in ʿArqa. I shall now go through all my Wikipedia edits replacing the character I presently use for ain.
I'm trying compile a list of the locations mentioned in the Jacobite dioceses articles in order to pinpoint on a map. I will let you know of my progress.
I think I simply copied the ʿayin symbol directly from your article as it was rendered on wikipedia. Alternatively, I regularly use symbols found in the ISO 259 standard for transliterating Hebrew.--Rafy talk 11:33, 12 January 2012 (UTC)

Military Historian of the Year

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The Bugle: Issue LXXI, February 2012

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Two articles for the same Church!

Hi, don't you think that we should merge Church of the East and Assyrian Church of the East? They obviously refer to the same eastern Church. An option would be to rename the first article to History of the Church of the East, since it is after all strictly concerned with history.--Rafy talk 12:49, 17 March 2012 (UTC)

Hi Rafy.
Actually, this has been discussed before. The Assyrian Church of the East is defined as the one of the two successor churches (with the Chaldean Church) since the schism of 1552. They both claim descent from the old COE, so that was the only logical way to prevent permanent edit wars.
Djwilms (talk) 09:33, 19 March 2012 (UTC)
I'm aware of the long history of schisms and counter-schisms in the Church of the East. However generally speaking those who joined the Catholic Church were required to profess the canons of faith provided by the Catholic Pope, thus braking the dogmatic continuity with their predecessors. The first leader and the "founder" of the Chaldean Church is always mentioned as John Sulaqa, while the Assyrian Church's official list goes back to St. Thomas.
By the way the LOC has proposed an ALA-LC romanization of Syriac. I thought you might find this interesting for eventual implementations in Wikipedia.--Rafy talk 19:27, 19 March 2012 (UTC)

I would like to bring this stub to you attention. I believe that it should be an obvious redirect to the Church of the East rather than a poorly written stub.--Rafy talk 15:04, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

Hi Rafi,
I would delete the stub entirely. It contains so many errors that I don't know where to start. The Persian Church is simply a geographical name for the Church of the East. I have used it in numerous occasions in my recent book The Martyred Church, simply for variety when I got fed up of calling it the Nestorian Church. It is true that not all Persian Christians went along with the decisions of the synod of Babai, but we have very little idea of what happened to the dissidents. Some of them may have rejoined the Church of the East later, others will have become Chalcedonians or Jacobites. But there is no evidence that a distinct 'Persian Church' was formed in opposition to the Church of the East, at least no evidence that I am aware of. Neither of the sources cited can be trusted on this kind of thing, I'm afraid.
Djwilms (talk) 06:39, 3 May 2012 (UTC)
Thanks for your reply. I will redirect the page since consensus has been reached.--Rafy talk 11:41, 4 May 2012 (UTC)

GOCE July 2012 Copy Edit Drive

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The Bugle: Issue LXXVI, July 2012

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Talkback

Hello, Djwilms. You have new messages at Talk:List of Patriarchs of the Church of the East.
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Rafy talk 12:25, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

Notification of proposal to ban Spanish articles from Did You Know?

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The Bugle: Issue LXXXIII, February 2013

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The Bugle: Issue LXXXIV, March 2013

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The Bugle: Issue LXXXV, April 2013

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The Bugle: Issue LXXXVI, May 2013

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The Bugle: Issue LXXXVII, June 2013

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The Bugle: Issue LXXXVIII, July 2013

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The Bugle: Issue LXXXIX, August 2013

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3-4 year old question on Islamic burning, but here it goes..

Hi, there! I noticed that on the talk page of Death by burning from 2010, you wondered about judicial burning to death in Islamic countries. In the 17th century Ottoman Empire (Turkey and dominions), several sources say that Turks who apostasized from Islam might face burning to death. Furthermore, from 18th century Morooco and Algiers, it is said in several sources that Christian slaves or Jews meriting death penalty would be burned (while Arabs would be impaled or meet other types of nastinesses.) I might cough up some links if you absolutely need'em. Cheers.Arildnordby (talk) 21:27, 9 January 2014 (UTC)

I've coughed up a few refs in the relevant article.Arildnordby (talk) 23:53, 9 January 2014 (UTC)
Thanks very much. I am gradually building up evidence that this punishment was taken over by the Muslims from the Christians after the Arab Conquest. I have come across several references to early examples of burning to death as (a) a pagan Roman punishment for Christians, notably in the persecution of Diocletian (c.305), (b) a Christian punishment for heretics (4th to 6th centuries AD), and finally (c) a Muslim punishment for rebels, deviants and apostates, including Christians (7th century onwards). One of these days I will document them for this article.
Djwilms (talk) 06:26, 10 January 2014 (UTC)
Sounds interesting! From the accounts I know of, typically 16th-19th century accounts, death by burning within regions of Islam was particularly associated with grave breaches of religion (typically, apostasy of Muslims (most commonly reported), or derogation of Islam by non-Muslims). There existed, however, particularly in Mameluke Egypt, a torture/punishment called shamyal, in which wounds were cut into the person's arms, filled by pitch or resin, and set fire to. In this flaming condition, the person was led to the execution site on a camel. (That's more of a pre-executional torture by burning, though, rather than the execution mode itself, so it might be peripheral to the article elements you wish to include)Arildnordby (talk) 13:08, 10 January 2014 (UTC)
In case you think the shamyal torture might be of relevance for your research, the following snippet is from Leonhard Rauwolf, travelling 1573-75, describing a variant of the ritual as observed in Tripoli: "So I have seen them often to ride along, but chiefly at one time with a poor Malefacior condemned to die, who was carried on a Camel's back, tied with his Back to a Cross; with his Arms extended, to the place of Execution, and between the Cross and his Shoulders were put two burning Torches prepared with Bacon, so that the Grease ran all over his Body, and burnt it severely"

This excerpt can be found on p.36 in John Ray's 1693 translation, A Collection of Curious Travels and Voyages, in Two Tomes, volume 1. Good luck with your work.Arildnordby (talk) 15:28, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

I have added a few 13th century burning accounts from Morocco and Tunis of martyred Catholic monks. In one explicit case, and presumably in others as well, the specific charge would have been that of proselytizing among the Muslim population.Arildnordby (talk) 16:17, 10 January 2014 (UTC)
Highly relevent to you research? I see from what you write that you are particularly interested in the early history of judicial burning within Islam. I assume you know about, but post anyway, an entry from the Encyclopedia of Islam, on the early ridda apostate and rebel Tulaiah b. Khuwailid, several of whose followers were burnt to death in the 630s Ce. E.J. Brill's First Encyclopaedia of Islam 1913-1936Arildnordby (talk) 16:51, 10 January 2014 (UTC)
Fascinating! Thanks very much for all this stuff, gentlemen. I am reminded that one of the procedures during the execution of Damiens in Paris (18th century) was to rip open the flesh of his arms and legs and pour boiling lead into the wounds, before all four limbs were pulled off by teams of horses. Possibly we need to distinguish, as has been suggested, between the application of fire (a) as a mode of torture, and (b) as a mode of execution. Let me give further thought to a possible spin-off article ...
Djwilms (talk) 09:29, 20 January 2014 (UTC)

Chronicle of Arbela

Hi, You probably used this chronicle more than once in your books. What are your thoughts regarding claims of it being a modern forgery?--Kathovo talk 14:02, 16 January 2014 (UTC)

Here's what I say in The Martyred Church (pages 89-90): Around 550 an unknown author from Adiabene wrote a Syriac history of the Church of Erbil and its bishops and martyrs. This history, the Chronicle of Erbil, took the development of the Addai legend a decisive stage further by transporting him to Persia and claiming him as the apostle of Adiabene. The Chronicle, which ignores the identical role claimed by the monks of Dorqoni for Mari, is structured around the careers of twenty bishops of Erbil who sat between the second and sixth centuries, from Paqida, said to have been consecrated by Addai at the beginning of the second century, to Hnana, who became metropolitan of Adiabene in 511. All of the early bishops in this sequence were invented by the author, who bolstered his fiction by assigning improbably precise reign-dates to each of them. The Chronicle of Erbil, first edited at the beginning of the twentieth century by Alphonse Mingana, who published the Syriac text of the Chronicle with a French translation in 1907, has become a battleground for scholars of the Church of the East, because it has been alleged to be a modern forgery. According to Mingana, the Chronicle was the work of Mshiha-zkha, an obscure historian mentioned by 'Abdisho' of Nisibis in his famous list of Nestorian authors, and survived in a single manuscript. It has since been shown beyond reasonable doubt that Mingana doctored his text in order to support this unlikely ascription, and to provide the manuscript with a convincing provenance. Hardly surprisingly, some scholars have suspected that he went further, and also wrote the text itself. Mingana was as brilliant as he was unscrupulous, but it is unlikely that he was capable of deception on so massive a scale. It is far more likely that the text itself is a genuine product of the sixth century, and that Mingana merely forged its provenance in a misguided attempt to win it scholarly acceptance. This appears to be the view of the German scholar Peter Kawerau, who has recently published a new edition of the Chronicle’s text. Kawerau has stubbornly defended the Chronicle’s authenticity and historical value, even to the point of impugning the integrity of the ‘Roman Catholic theologians’ with whom he disagrees, and is very probably right to maintain that the Chronicle is an authentic text from the sixth century. But that does not mean that its evidence can be trusted. The Chronicle of Erbil was doubtless written by a monk in one of the Erbil monasteries. Its author was a conscious inventor of tradition, who cheerfully mingled truth with fiction for the greater glory of the diocese of Erbil. Like other historical fictions from this period, the Chronicle may conceivably contain information of great value on pagan customs and other aspects of life in Parthian and Sasanian Persia; but it is rarely possible to separate the gold from the dross.
I wrote that 4 years ago and I have not changed my mind since.
Djwilms (talk) 09:35, 20 January 2014 (UTC)
I get the picture now. Thank you so much for your reply. Do you know whether Mingana left the Dominican seminary in Mosul because of this issue?--Kathovo talk 01:18, 21 January 2014 (UTC)
Hah! A good question, and one to which I don't know the answer. While I was doing my PhD thesis on the Church of the East in the 1990s, it was considered impolite (at least at Oxford), to ask prurient questions about Mingana and the Chronicle of Erbil. Clearly there had been some sort of scandal, but there was a 'see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil' sort of mood, and our supervisors focused instead on Mingana's more positive contributions to scholarship. It would be nice if someone could work over the Wikipedia article on him and bring it all out into the open at last ...
Djwilms (talk) 02:57, 21 January 2014 (UTC)
I have found an article in Arabic by Assad Sauma regarding this controversy. Apparently the conflict started when Mingana claimed that the Addai tradition was a mere legend and that Christianity in Mesopotamia is of Antiochian origin. Once in England Mingana cut off all his relations with all his Middle Eastern acquaintances except for his lifelong friend patriarch Ephrem Barsom. Interestingly, Mingana's daughter recounted that her father and the patriarch would converse in French during their private meetings.--Kathovo talk 18:47, 21 January 2014 (UTC)

Nomination for deletion of Template:Patriarchs of the Syriac Orthodox Church

Template:Patriarchs of the Syriac Orthodox Church has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the template's entry on the Templates for discussion page. Mugsalot (talk) 22:07, 6 March 2014 (UTC)

Hello, I am a French artist and I am living in Taipei for over one and half year. I am currently working on a comic about the sino-french war. Your numerous wikipedia pages about this topic are a great help and I also read most of the French sources from Gallica.bnf.fr but I still don't find anywhere the book of the Commandant Paul Thirion. A notice about this book is readable from Academia Sinica but I don't find the book in their library at Nangang, although you have there 2 linear meters of books there mostly in Chinese about the sino-french war.

Emmanuel — Preceding unsigned comment added by 111.243.7.9 (talk) 08:16, 29 March 2014 (UTC)

By chance, I have recently acquired a pdf file of Thirion's book. Send me an email (davidwilmshurst@yahoo.com), and I would be happy to let you have a copy.
Djwilms (talk) 08:49, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

Nomination of Locust (mainland Chinese tourist) for deletion

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WikiProject Military history coordinator election

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The Military history Wikiproject has opened nominations for the Military historian of the year and Military history newcomer of the year. Nominations will be accepted until 13 December at 23:59 GMT, with voting to begin at 0:00 GMT 14 December. The voting will conclude on 21 December. MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 08:41, 7 December 2014 (UTC)

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WikiProject Military history coordinator election

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Creating a new Wiki Page

Can you create a page called List of Syriac poets and Authors that is modeled on the existing List of Persian poets and authors? (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Persian_poets_and_authors) You have a lot of knowledge on this topic. I think you would a great job. 97.94.154.244 (talk) 03:42, 30 June 2016 (UTC)

Military history WikiProject coordinator election

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