User talk:FactOrOpinion
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I just made an edit on a page and forgot to describe the edit before publishing it. I don't see how to add the description about what I did subsequent to publishing. Thanks. FactOrOpinion (talk) 18:23, 17 May 2020 (UTC)
- Hi there! Unfortunately, you cannot add or change the edit summary once you publish your changes - see Help:Edit summary#Fixing. To prevent that from happening again, you can go to your Preferences and check "Prompt me when entering a blank edit summary (or the default undo summary)". Happy editing! GoingBatty (talk) 19:05, 17 May 2020 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) You can't add an edit summary to a prior edit. There are two things you can do; you can make a "dummy edit", or in other words an inconsequential change(like removing a space) and add your edit summary to that edit, like this: "Dummy edit: fixed spelling on prior edit". Or, you can post to the article talk page to describe your edit. 331dot (talk) 19:07, 17 May 2020 (UTC)
- Thanks to both of you for taking time to answer my question! FactOrOpinion (talk) 23:03, 17 May 2020 (UTC)
Regarding your questions & comments to me
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Regarding your questions & comments to me[edit]To FactOrOpinion - I didn't want to clutter the WP article's talk page, so I decided to address your questions and comments on your talk page.
Regarding your comments: The 2/21/2018 Protective Order is a court order governing the "Discovery" process after Flynn pleaded guilty in December 2017. There are several ways we know that the 2/21/2018 Protective Order included the "FBI notes" (a.k.a. FBI 302s) and that Flynn, Flynn's lawyers and the court were in possession of them since 2018: Like I said on the talk page, "the content of the FBI notes have been in the general public since 2018, RS has been reporting about them via Flynn's case since 2018, and this WP article has been reporting on them since 2018 as well. On top of that, the 'trap' notion has also been discussed in RS and this WP article since 2018. So, there is literally nothing new about the FBI notes or the notion of 'trap.'While Bill Barr's release of the physical copies of the FBI notes are the only thing "new" to the general public, the content of them is not new to the general public, and the physical copies are not new to Flynn, Flynn's lawyers, or the Federal Court. So, on Mike Flynn, we have a guy who lied to the FBI about national security issues, who then pleaded guilty in court two times to lying to the FBI over national security issues, and who now says he (Flynn) lied, while under oath, to the court both times he pleaded guilty so he wants to withdraw his guilty plea. By the way, if Flynn is now admitting he lied to the court, two times, then does that mean Flynn is admitting he committed perjury? To quote Judge Sullivan on Flynn lying to the FBI about national security issues, "a high-ranking government official who had betrayed the government’s trust by lying. Mr. Flynn deceived not only F.B.I. agents, but also senior White House officials, who then repeated his lies to the American public. This is a very serious offense. This case is in a category by itself.” On Bill Barr: RS report that Bill Barr's actions in Flynn, Mueller, and Ukraine is Bill Barr trying to cast doubt on the FBI's legitimate investigation of Russia working with or coordinating with Trump's 2016 campaign to undermine 2016 US elections. [1] [2] [3] To quote another Judge, [4] "Barr’s handling of the report by the special counsel, Robert Mueller, saying that Mr. Barr put forward a “distorted” and “misleading” account of its findings and lacked credibility on the topic. Mr. Barr could not be trusted, Judge Reggie B. Walton said, citing “inconsistencies” between the attorney general’s statements about the report when it was secret and its actual contents that turned out to be more damaging to President Trump. Mr. Barr’s “lack of candor” called into question his “credibility and, in turn, the department’s” assurances to the court."
I wouldn't spend so much time worrying about this. I'll just put in the links, and we can drop the discussion. The permalink will not clutter the page--it's just a link, not the entire discussion.
I see a lot of intensity in the discussion between you two. Often, after you make your point the first time and the other person hasn't understood it, there is really no need to repeat it if you are not adding anything new, because they will just repeat their perspective again, and it will go on ad infinitum... If they don't hear you the first 3 times, saying it one more time won't make any difference to them or the people reading it, it will just create a wall of text no one will want to read. It's often better to walk away, because the original point made is still there for all to see and for you to refer back to in a diff if there is any question about your take on the matter. Sometimes, editors end up with interaction bans if things stay that intense. Walking away from the negativity will help avoid further drama. See if you can find common ground and work together. --David Tornheim (talk) 11:31, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
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Mike Flynn talk page
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Mike Flynn talk page[edit]To FactOrOpinion - Firstly: you unwittingly misrepresented a legal filing to the court in your comment here [23] so please scratch out your error and please be more careful in the future. To be specific: you gave a partial quote from a legal brief and then unwittingly misrepresented it. Your partial quote: "In the Motion to Dismiss, the government asserted that “[the] investigation … seems to have been undertaken only to elicit those very false statements and thereby criminalize Mr. Flynn" Not only did you completely misrepresent the quote itself and its meaning in that paragraph, you then incorrectly claim that "The DOJ did imply a "false statements trap"" That is not true -- not even close to being legally true 1) The context of that quote has zero (0) to do with any notion of perjury trap or false statement trap.
Secondly: And this has nothing to do with your comment on the talk page. The only way Bill Barr would have a chance to drop charges against a defendant who had already pleaded guilty two time to a very serious crime is by pretending that the original case against Flynn had no merit. Bill Barr knew not to make a claim that Flynn was set-up in a perjury trap or false statement trap for several legal reasons so his best bet, his only bet really, was to claim that even though Flynn lied to the FBI the case against Flynn should be dismissed because he original case had no merit and that's because, "the lie" requires demonstrating that the "lie" is “material” to the underlying investigation. This is an encyclopedia where accuracy matters, so again, please scratch out your error and be more careful in the future. Thank you BetsyRMadison (talk) 18:26, 15 June 2020 (UTC)
As I said above. I'll just put in the links, and we can drop the discussion. The permalink will not clutter the page--it's just a link, not the entire discussion. --David Tornheim (talk) 11:32, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
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US v. Flynn
[edit]Exciting to be working on this with you! We can learn the ropes of Law Wikipedia together. JapanOfGreenGables (talk) 01:57, 30 June 2020 (UTC)
- JapanOfGreenGables - I, too, am glad to have others to work with and an interesting context for learning more about Wikipedia, both the law-specific elements and about WP editing and culture. FactOrOpinion (talk) 16:37, 30 June 2020 (UTC)
I've been working on expanding the pages for Legal realism and Public law. I'd love to work with you again if either of these are of interest to you! JapanOfGreenGables (talk) 11:21, 12 July 2020 (UTC)
Manual of Style -- Legal
[edit]Please read MOS:LEGAL. --David Tornheim (talk) 10:02, 30 June 2020 (UTC)
- David Tornheim - Thanks for this helpful link, which also introduced me to the more general MOS. FactOrOpinion (talk) 16:37, 30 June 2020 (UTC)
Draft U.S. v Flynn talk page
[edit]FYI. I responded to a number of your comments (and the other editor's) about the WP:RS list. I interspersed them so I provided the this diff so it's easy to read them all at once. --David Tornheim (talk) 21:00, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
FactOrOpinion I responded here also.--David Tornheim (talk) 01:27, 3 July 2020 (UTC)
Regarding this, I disagree that there is a problem. Already too much text and time has been expended on the part of multiple editors over something fairly minor. I thought it would be quickly be solved by my post of the links, and we could all move on to other more important things. I prefer not to continue to discuss it. If you feel there are unanswered questions regarding this or why you believe there were defects with my or your permalinks, can you please ask at the WP:TEAHOUSE? I'm happy to continue the discussion on the Draft Flynn page. --David Tornheim (talk) 01:50, 3 July 2020 (UTC)
I've read your comments. I have been discussing the issues on the Talk page. I appreciate your comments and suggestions. I've got a hell of a busy weekend before me, but I'll try to review the two articles thoroughly and get back to you. I expect you've put significant time on editing the case article over the past two months and am looking forward to reading it. Activist (talk) 15:20, 4 September 2020 (UTC)
- I've got to leave the computer for a day or two, probably, but thanks for the input. What, if anything, do you think needs to stay in the case section on Flynn's article, and what do you think might be usefully moved to the case page or should be duplicated on both pages? I suspect when someone gets around to writing a book about Flynn, this will get considerable coverage. Activist (talk) 17:16, 4 September 2020 (UTC)
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Where to post question re: intersection of WP:SPS, WP:BLP, legal cases, and legal fora as sources
[edit]@David Tornheim:, @Mathglot: I posted a question to the WikiProject Law talk page [26], but as I've continued to investigate on my own (e.g., looking up/reading some archives of related discussions), I've realized that that isn't really my question. Now that I'm getting a better handle on what my actual questions are, I'm uncertain where to post them.
I'll try to articulate the questions, which are about the intersection of a few different WP guidelines -- WP:RS, WP:BLP, and WP:SPS -- and legal cases/commentary. Quoting from a couple of WP pages and italicizing some of the text for emphasis: Wikipedia:Verifiability#Self-published_sources says “Self-published expert sources may be considered reliable when produced by an established subject-matter expert, whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable, independent publications. Exercise caution when using such sources: if the information in question is suitable for inclusion, someone else will probably have published it in independent reliable sources. Never use self-published sources as third-party sources about living people, even if the author is an expert, well-known professional researcher, or writer.” Legal cases like US v. Flynn aren't biographical pages, but the discussion sometimes involves living people (e.g., Flynn), and WP:BLP says "This policy applies to any living person mentioned in a BLP, whether or not that person is the subject of the article, and to material about living persons in other articles and on other pages, including talk pages." Since lots of legal cases involve living people, I assume that the SPS policy sometimes applies to text in articles about legal cases. Is that correct?
My questions focus on online legal fora written by experts, which can be WP:RS in certain circumstances. Some of these self-identify as blogs (e.g., SCOTUSblog); others don't (e.g., Just Security). Depending on whether the text is factual vs. legal commentary, they might be used as a reference for factual claims (in WP's voice) or as a reference for opinions (written in the voice of the author, not WP's voice). But since WP:SPS can't be used for WP:BLP, it's important to figure out (1) whether a given online legal forum is/isn't a WP:SPS and (2) whether the claim it would be a citation for on the case page is/isn't a claim that WP:BLP applies to. For example, commentary from the online legal forum Just Security can be used for US v. Flynn if (a) the author has expertise for the claim and (b) Just Security isn't considered self-published and/or if the claim isn't a BLP claim, but can't be used if (c) it's a BLP claim and Just Security is considered a SPS. The thing is: it's not always clear to me how to determine (1) and (2). This issue isn't limited to Just Security or US v. Flynn; it applies to material from varied online legal fora that might be used to support claims about legal cases involving living people. These fora aren't newspaper blogs (which aren't considered SPS); some of the fora are clearly SPS (e.g., emptywheel), but others aren't necessarily SPS (e.g., they have editorial boards).
I'd actually like to understand (1) how do you determine whether a given source is/isn't a WP:SPS when it's not clear-cut?, and (2) how do you determine when a claim about a legal case involving a living person crosses into WP:BLP vs. not? Do my questions make sense? I can add a bit more info about some related discussions that I found in the WP:RSN and WP:V archives if that's helpful. I've found more addressing issue (1) than issue (2) -- maybe just an artifact of my search terms, I don't know. But I'd first like help figuring out where's the best place to post the questions. I'd rather post both to the same place, since they're intertwined, but if it's really better to post them to different places, I can do that. I don't think it makes sense to post the discussion to the talk page of the draft for US v Flynn, as the issue isn't specific to that case, even though that's the context in which my questions arose. Do I post them to WP:RSN? (probably not, as I'm not worried about whether they're sometimes reliable), Wikipedia_talk:Verifiability? Wikipedia_talk:Biographies_of_living_persons? someplace else? Once I get an answer elsewhere, I'll report back to the US v Flynn talk page.
Three examples of why I'm sometimes having a hard time determining whether specific online legal fora are a SPS:
- “Just Security [27] is based at the Reiss Center on Law and Security [RCLS] at New York University School of Law,” is “editorially-independent” of RCLS, and has a large editorial board of experts (see the masthead: [28]). Some of the editors work at NYU and others of don't; some (maybe all) of the editors sometimes publish articles there. It also has an advisory board: [29].
- Lawfare [30] is “Published by the Lawfare Institute in cooperation with Brookings.” The Lawfare Institute and Brookings are both 501(c)(3)s, and the former only exists to support the blog. It has multiple editors: [31]; some are at Lawfare/Brookings, some are faculty at law schools and/or associated with other non-profits such as the Hoover Institution and the Council on Foreign Relations. The editors sometimes publish their own articles; other times they publish work by others.
- SCOTUSblog [32] strikes me as self-published for the primary staff. But they also publish work by diverse other legal scholars (e.g,. in sponsored symposia), and I'm wondering if it becomes more like an outside publisher at that point.
Thanks. Apologies that I'm so wordy. It's hard for me to be more compact when I'm still getting hold of what my questions are, and as the quip goes, I haven't had time to make it shorter [33]. And David, after the exchange re: BetsyRMadison's and my exchanges belonging on the Flynn talk page, I do understand that this doesn't really belong on my talk page, but I just don't know where it does go; my intention is to condense it and post it somewhere appropriate. -- FactOrOpinion (talk) 00:21, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
- @FactOrOpinion: Might I suggest you reduce the length of your questions like this? When I see something this long, I feel overwhelmed and wonder if I have the patience to read the entire thing. Less is more. If you have more than one unique question, you can make a numbered list or separate post where we can respond directly under each unique post. The separate posts could all be in the same section. See for example, this question I asked: Wikipedia_talk:Splitting#Closing_a_split_discussion. That took a long time to write, because I focussed on making it as simple as possible for the facts that I wanted to show. Editors are more likely to respond if it is easy to read. The responses show even more brevity. --David Tornheim (talk) 00:36, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
- Yeah, I apologized for the length in the last paragraph, as it's hard for me to be compact when I'm still making sense of something. But I'll try.
- Where is a good place for me to ask more about this pair of questions:
- (1) how to determine whether an online legal forum is/isn't WP:SPS, and
- (2) how to determine whether WP:BLP applies to particular text on a legal case page (or is that judgment made at the page level and not the sentence level)?
- Why I'm asking: Wikipedia:Verifiability#Self-published_sources says “Self-published expert sources may be considered reliable when produced by an established subject-matter expert... Never use self-published sources as third-party sources about living people, even if the author is an expert, well-known professional researcher, or writer.” Legal cases like aren't biographical pages, but the discussion sometimes involves living people (e.g., the defendant), and WP:BLP says "This policy applies to any living person mentioned in a BLP, whether or not that person is the subject of the article, and to material about living persons in other articles and on other pages, including talk pages." Since lots of legal cases involve living people, I assume that the SPS policy sometimes applies to text in articles about legal cases. Is that correct?
- Some online legal fora (e.g., SCOTUSblog, Just Security, Lawfare, The Volokh Conspiracy) are written by experts and so might be RSs for some kinds of claims. But for some of them it's unclear whether they're WP:SPS. If they are, and if WP:BLP sometimes applies in the page for a legal case, then those online legal fora can't be used as citations for those claims.
- I gave 3 examples of specific online legal fora to give a sense of why the SPS question sometimes isn't clear, but I'll skip that for now. I did try looking up info in some of the archived discussions at Wikipedia_talk:Verifiability and WP:RSN, but it didn't really answer my questions.
- Hope this is short enough. Thanks. -- FactOrOpinion (talk) 01:10, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
(1) how to determine whether an online legal forum is/isn't WP:SPS
- If it were me, and I couldn't figure it out myself, I would ask at WP:RS/N.
- To determine if SPS, do things like this:
- (1) Google the entity -- see what you can learn about it.
- (2) If it has wiki article, it is likely to give you solid clues about whether it is SPS.
- (3) Click around the site. Look for pages like these:
- (a) Contact us
- (b) About
- (c) Mission Statement
- (d) Editorial board
- In my mind, what is key to the difference between an SPS is whether there is at least one editor--ideally someone with editorial, journalistic, or literary experience--who oversees the work with a dispassionate ability to delete biased and factually questionable proposed submissions. Someone who will reject and revise submissions rather than just publish whatever is sent to them. (contrast with Predatory publishing).
- Keep in mind, nearly everything published (including Internet), has some kind of "paper trail" leading back to the owner. From looking for the owner of the site, you learn a lot about how the owner manages the site.
- Sometimes, it's easy to tell, but there are often borderline cases, which is when you go to WP:RS/N.
- I usually presume that if the site makes it hard to find its editorial standards or editorial board, that it has none, and is SPS. But I'm sure there are counter-examples.
- --David Tornheim (talk) 03:37, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
- Thanks David. I'm already familiar with these fora. Lawfare and Just Security have sizeable editorial boards, but the editors also post articles, and the sites aren't clear re: whether/how the editor-written articles get approved and edited. SCOTUSblog has no identified editorial board and much of the content is published by the expert owners and assistants (and the site has a great track record for reliability and neutrality), but it also sponsors symposia with many outside scholars, and I suspect that the owners act as editors for that content. Each feels like a mix of SPS and not. They're all scholarly/careful. But so are some legal blogs that are more clearly self-published, like emptywheel and Volokh Conspiracy. I'll post my question to RSN. Thanks again for your time and patience. -- FactOrOpinion (talk) 04:17, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
- @FactOrOpinion: I've only skimmed, not read through, and will come back later (ping me if I forget). First,some housekeepking: please don't use
<br>
, it screws up syntax highlighting. Either use<br/>
, or even better,{{br}}
. However, in all the cases where you used it, a blank line is sufficient. If you want extra white space between paragraphs (not recommended), just add two blank lines. - Now, about SPS, RS, and all that (here's where I only skimmed): first, a caveat: my opinions are only my own. Having said that, use your best judgment, in the first instance. If you make a glaring mistake, someone will fix it (hopefully). As far as expert opinion, someone like Juan Cole, when talking about Middle East Issues at Informed Comment, is definitely an expert, for example. Medium.com, for example, is an anybody-can-publish site, but some people who publish there are experts in their subject matter, most are not. When it's not clear cut, you can always raise an issue about a specific source on the article Talk page, and it's always worth searching the archives at WP:RSN to see if someone asked your question before, or you can raise a new one to see what they think. Haven't read David's response, or your 2nd one, hope I idn't duplicate anything. That's it for now, Mathglot (talk) 01:30, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
- @Mathglot: Thanks. I think you misunderstood. I'm not asking about US v Flynn or RSs really, but about where to post a questions re: determining (1) whether legal blogs/fora are SPSs when this isn't clear, and (2) whether legal cases involving living people require WP:BLP standards; these two interact, as one can't use a SPS as a reference for a claim that falls under BLP. If that's now too cryptic, read my response to David, which adds a bit more. Don't bother with the long initial post unless you want to. I did already search some archives for answers but didn't find anything clear. -- FactOrOpinion (talk) 02:28, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
- Perhaps not. Before posting, you should check archives at RSN, and if you didn't find anything, then post your question about whether the blog is a RS at WP:RSN. Mathglot (talk) 03:11, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
- The issue isn't whether they're RSs (they are, as long as they're applied in contexts where the authors do have expertise, though text might need to be in the author's voice). The issue is whether they're self-published, because the rules say "Never use self-published sources as third-party sources about living people, even if the author is an expert, ...,” and WP:BLP says the BLP policy also "applies ... to material about living persons in other articles and on other pages," which implies that we may need to beware of using the blogs on the US v. Flynn page (and ditto with living people in other cases). I did already search the archives at RSN and found some related entries but no clear answer. But I see that David agrees with you about asking at RSN, so I'll do that. Based on the RSN description, I'd thought that the focus there is more on whether the source is reliable, but if they also help with SPS assessments, that's great. Thanks again, and sorry that I wasn't clear enough initially. -- FactOrOpinion (talk) 03:47, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
- Please see my answer in the section below.
- If you post at WP:RS/N, make sure to present everything you found, and keep your own commentary about your read to a minimum. --David Tornheim (talk) 04:02, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
- The issue isn't whether they're RSs (they are, as long as they're applied in contexts where the authors do have expertise, though text might need to be in the author's voice). The issue is whether they're self-published, because the rules say "Never use self-published sources as third-party sources about living people, even if the author is an expert, ...,” and WP:BLP says the BLP policy also "applies ... to material about living persons in other articles and on other pages," which implies that we may need to beware of using the blogs on the US v. Flynn page (and ditto with living people in other cases). I did already search the archives at RSN and found some related entries but no clear answer. But I see that David agrees with you about asking at RSN, so I'll do that. Based on the RSN description, I'd thought that the focus there is more on whether the source is reliable, but if they also help with SPS assessments, that's great. Thanks again, and sorry that I wasn't clear enough initially. -- FactOrOpinion (talk) 03:47, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
- Perhaps not. Before posting, you should check archives at RSN, and if you didn't find anything, then post your question about whether the blog is a RS at WP:RSN. Mathglot (talk) 03:11, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
- @Mathglot: Thanks. I think you misunderstood. I'm not asking about US v Flynn or RSs really, but about where to post a questions re: determining (1) whether legal blogs/fora are SPSs when this isn't clear, and (2) whether legal cases involving living people require WP:BLP standards; these two interact, as one can't use a SPS as a reference for a claim that falls under BLP. If that's now too cryptic, read my response to David, which adds a bit more. Don't bother with the long initial post unless you want to. I did already search some archives for answers but didn't find anything clear. -- FactOrOpinion (talk) 02:28, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
@David Tornheim:, @Mathglot: Just a heads up that I revised and posted my questions to WP:RSN: [34]. It's still long, mostly to include all of the relevant background (links to the discussions here and at WikiProject Law, links to what I found in the archives, info about the 3 sites where I'm uncertain if they're SPS). One editor has responded already, and that response underscores for me that WP's SPS definition needs work. David, you suggested that I also post a note about the discussion at Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons/Noticeboard). I haven't done that yet, but will. I want to thank both of you again for the myriad kinds of support that you've provided as I'm learning about all of WP's norms, how/where to seek input, etc., and for your patience with my wordiness and periodic mistakes. There's a lot to learn, and I really appreciate your help. -- FactOrOpinion (talk) 13:02, 7 July 2020 (UTC)
- P.S. I ended up deciding to post the note on the BLP talk page (here: [35]) rather than the Noticeboard, as my question is more about the BLPSPS guideline than about a specific article. -- FactOrOpinion (talk) 14:25, 7 July 2020 (UTC)
- FactOrOpinion Glad you are getting the answers. Unfortunately, because of crowdsourcing for policy, for cases like these, sometimes Wikipedia has a gray area, double-standards, bizarre contradictions, etc., that are in places you might not have even considered. If you are seeking a clear and final way to understand these gray areas in a definitive interpretation by an editor or panel of authority, it can be nearly impossible.
- The purpose of the noticeboard discussions is to seek help from a wide group of experienced editors, who might be more familiar with the seeming contradictions. As you can see, even experienced editors may still disagree.
- I think one of the challenges you faced was that your instinct that ScotusBlog is WP:RS was correct all along, but you got big pushback that probably was unwarranted, and so you were cautious. The fact that it is called a "blog", probably gives some wiki editors the wrong idea that it is not WP:RS. Based on the posts at WP:RS/N, I think you can see your instincts were right. Working in the area of law, I think most laypeople don't realize just how carefully regulated attorney's published opinions are and that a J.D. means "doctor of jurisprudence". --David Tornheim (talk) 18:57, 7 July 2020 (UTC)
- The site that first got me thinking about all of this was actually Just Security, as I'd mentioned a Just Security article about US v. Flynn in my discussion with BetsyRMadison above, and she had dismissed the author (a Georgetown law prof. and former Deputy Assistant A.G. in the Office of Legal Counsel at the DOJ) as a "blogger" and later claimed on her talk page that "'Just Security' is a blog where anyone can write & it's certainly not a RS." It seems like the consensus is that for all three of the online legal fora I mentioned here, their material can be RSOPINION or RSFACT (depending on the particulars, consistent with my views about them), and none is considered SPS (which I was less certain about). I'll see about adding SCOTUSblog, at least, to the Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Perennial_sources. Thanks for the additional info about Noticeboards vs. talk pages. Re: attorneys' published opinions, rest assured that they can be very sloppy (Jonathan Turley's Wordpress blog comes to mind; despite being a GWU law prof. who has been an expert congressional witness -- for ex., for the GOP in the impeachment hearings -- his columns are riddled with typos, factual errors, ...; that's an example where I do consider it a personal blog and SPS). I'm OK with there being gray areas, but I now think that a couple of guideline pages can be improved a bit, and at some point I'll try to post a brief note to them with a link to the RS/N discussion. -- FactOrOpinion (talk) 20:11, 7 July 2020 (UTC)
- I agree with much of what you say in the above.
but I now think that a couple of guideline pages can be improved a bit...
- What you can do is post a proposed change to the page, and see what people say. Sometimes or often WP:RfCs are used to make substantial changes or additions to policy. Also, sometimes, policies get separate little fiefdoms. For example, I believe originally WP:GNG was the main guideline for notability; consider this version from 2005. Now, it has been broken down into things like WP:NSPORTS, WP:NACTOR, and the most amazing of all notability rules WP:NOLYMPICS that says anyone who competed in the Olympics is notable. I find that ridiculous, and so we have so many articles on people who were part of some sports team that competed in the Olympics years ago and did nothing else in their lives mentioned in WP:RS.
- My point with that is that the issues you are bringing up are very focused on WP:RS in law. You probably weren't aware of WP:MUSIC/SOURCES a separate fiefdom of rules about sources related to music. There is also WP:MEDRS. I think legal sources deserve such a list, rather than putting it in WP:RSP. Maybe there is one already.
I'll see about adding SCOTUSblog, at least, to the Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Perennial_sources.
- Please keep in mind: (1) this list is very recent dating only to 2018 (2) that there has been a movement as sources are rapidly added to WP:RS/P (3) there is also significant opposition that goes back to Wikipedia's inception. I believe such a list was proposed long ago, and for reasons that have become only too clear now, there are significant problems with having this list. Hopefully, someone will (or has written) an essay that explains the serious problems with this list. Wikipedia_talk:Reliable_sources/Perennial_sources/Archive_1#This_seems_a_bad_idea is the first one I found.
- Lately, new entries to the list have been started by WP:RfCs. These RfC's can be incredibly superficial. I have objected to several of them, and others have joined me. An obvious problem of declaring a particular publication "generally reliable" or "generally unreliable" is that the reliability of any particular published article depends significantly on the author(s) and subject of the article, whether it is opinion or carefully researched material, whether it is repetition of political propaganda and talking points or other "political purposes", whether it is advocacy, or the author has a conflict of interest on the particular subject. Noam Chomsky has has researched into the serious problems of bias and pro-government material with some of the most reputable publications such as the New York Times. (see Media_bias_in_the_United_States#Corporate_bias_and_power_bias) --David Tornheim (talk) 21:15, 7 July 2020 (UTC)
- P.S. the plural of forum in English is forums, not fora. See [36]. I have a book that gives a list of the many latin terms that use the non-latin plural or where either is okay (e.g. indexes or indices). Although we often talk about "data", we rarely use the latin singular "datum" and instead say something like a "data point".[37]. (See also Data (word)) --David Tornheim (talk) 21:23, 7 July 2020 (UTC)
- The site that first got me thinking about all of this was actually Just Security, as I'd mentioned a Just Security article about US v. Flynn in my discussion with BetsyRMadison above, and she had dismissed the author (a Georgetown law prof. and former Deputy Assistant A.G. in the Office of Legal Counsel at the DOJ) as a "blogger" and later claimed on her talk page that "'Just Security' is a blog where anyone can write & it's certainly not a RS." It seems like the consensus is that for all three of the online legal fora I mentioned here, their material can be RSOPINION or RSFACT (depending on the particulars, consistent with my views about them), and none is considered SPS (which I was less certain about). I'll see about adding SCOTUSblog, at least, to the Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Perennial_sources. Thanks for the additional info about Noticeboards vs. talk pages. Re: attorneys' published opinions, rest assured that they can be very sloppy (Jonathan Turley's Wordpress blog comes to mind; despite being a GWU law prof. who has been an expert congressional witness -- for ex., for the GOP in the impeachment hearings -- his columns are riddled with typos, factual errors, ...; that's an example where I do consider it a personal blog and SPS). I'm OK with there being gray areas, but I now think that a couple of guideline pages can be improved a bit, and at some point I'll try to post a brief note to them with a link to the RS/N discussion. -- FactOrOpinion (talk) 20:11, 7 July 2020 (UTC)
Q2 Re "Never use self-published sources as third-party sources about living people, even if the author is an expert, well-known professional researcher, or writer."
[edit]To be honest, I was surprised to read that. I'm pretty sure I could find a number of violations of this rule on Wikipedia. I believe the purpose of this line it to prevent the inclusion of defamatory (or promotional WP:PROMO) material that might be unrelated to the author's expertise in the field, which might be motivated by friendship, solidarity or antipathy for the subject. For example, a Supreme Court justice might say, "I worked with X many ago at a law firm. S/he is a great attorney with integrity, who will make a fine president." This kind of endorsement would really need to be published in a non-SPS to be worthy of inclusion in Wikipedia IMHO. For your case commentary about the case is quite different than opinions about the person.
If a legal expert comments on the case, I think that would be acceptable even from an SPS. --David Tornheim (talk) 03:58, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
- @David Tornheim: Thanks. If it weren't for that line, there wouldn't be a problem, as these particular legal fora all have sufficiently expert contributors to be RSs (sometimes only in the author's voice, sometimes in WP's voice, depending on the specifics of an article). -- FactOrOpinion (talk) 04:28, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
- SPS is out, because of how strict WP:BLP is. Whereas for example, unsourced assertions are littered over millions of articles at Wikipedia, some tagged with {{citation needed}}, some not, and there's no urgency about rectifying them, that is not at all the case with articles about, or touching upon, living persons. Unsourced material can be removed immediately As WP:BLP says near the top, any contentious material (even positive), "should be removed immediately and without waiting for discussion." When in doubt in a BLP article, if you see something you don't agree with, then by definition it's contentious; remove it, ask your question about whether it should be removed later. If you place "..per WP:BLPREMOVE" in the edit summary, even if it turns out in the end that you were mistaken, and the material was true but simply not sourced, you're still in the right to remove it, and you will never get criticized for it by an admin or an experienced user. The thing about an SPS is, by definition it is unreliable--there are no fact-checkers, the blog owner can post content themself with no other eyes ever editing or checking it. That is an unreliable source. Note that, "unreliable source" does not mean "inaccurate", "inexpert", "unusable at Wikipedia", or "biased". But it does mean you can't use it in a BLP. Mathglot (talk) 08:06, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
- @Mathglot:Thanks, in this case "
the blog owner can post content themself with no other eyes ever editing or checking it
" is part of what I'm questioning. In an online legal forum like Just Security, which doesn't self-identify as a blog and which has a bunch of editors, it's not clear to me whether an editor can post without the article first being reviewed by another editor; also, many of the articles aren't written by editors, but are instead submitted and either rejected or accepted/revised via editorial review. FWIW, SCOTUSblog is cited hundreds of times on WP for SCOTUS cases. If a legal case page is considered BLP whenever the plaintiff or defendant is a living individual, then "Blogs are SPS and are out per BLPSPS" (quoting your edit summary) would make those unacceptable. I'll work on figuring out how to post my questions clearly and succinctly at RSN, hopefully later today, and will add some of what I found in the archives. Thanks again, the exchange with you and David has been very helpful. -- FactOrOpinion (talk) 12:22, 6 July 2020 (UTC)- @FactOrOpinion:, I see, yes, that doesn't sound like your typical "blog" and may have editors, fact-checkers, and so on. Sounds legit (especially if all the other cases rely on it) but if you still have doubts, no harm in raising it at WP:RSN. For one thing, a thumbs-up opinion there would give it an imprimatur covering not only your use of it, but all the other articles that use it already, which would be a service. Thanks for being so diligent about upholding WP:Verifiability; that a very good thing for the encyclopedia. Mathglot (talk) 18:49, 7 July 2020 (UTC)
- @Mathglot:Thanks, in this case "
- SPS is out, because of how strict WP:BLP is. Whereas for example, unsourced assertions are littered over millions of articles at Wikipedia, some tagged with {{citation needed}}, some not, and there's no urgency about rectifying them, that is not at all the case with articles about, or touching upon, living persons. Unsourced material can be removed immediately As WP:BLP says near the top, any contentious material (even positive), "should be removed immediately and without waiting for discussion." When in doubt in a BLP article, if you see something you don't agree with, then by definition it's contentious; remove it, ask your question about whether it should be removed later. If you place "..per WP:BLPREMOVE" in the edit summary, even if it turns out in the end that you were mistaken, and the material was true but simply not sourced, you're still in the right to remove it, and you will never get criticized for it by an admin or an experienced user. The thing about an SPS is, by definition it is unreliable--there are no fact-checkers, the blog owner can post content themself with no other eyes ever editing or checking it. That is an unreliable source. Note that, "unreliable source" does not mean "inaccurate", "inexpert", "unusable at Wikipedia", or "biased". But it does mean you can't use it in a BLP. Mathglot (talk) 08:06, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
When bringing over French text, what about the refs?
[edit]Hi, FactOrOpinion, I decided to respond here to the question about foreign references that you posed at the discussion on my TP about the French history topic, because it's a more general question that you might like to refer to again at some point, so here is a better venue for that. You said,
- "Am I correct in assuming that if I copy/translate some French text, I'd need to find English substitutes for the French references?"
The quick answer, is "no". It's more important for the article to have some source, than no source; if equivalent sources in English can be found, they can always be added later. So, you don't have to find an English one. Policy page WP:Verifiability#Non-English sources says "Citations to non-English reliable sources are allowed on the English Wikipedia. However, because this project is in English, English-language sources are preferred." This actually flows naturally from core requirement of Verifiability policy, which is that all assertions are verifiable, but not that it necessarily be easy to do so (i.e., in English, on the web). So, you can bring the references over in French, at least for starters. (If they use the any of the series of {{Citation}} templates, like {{cite book}}, {{cite web}}, and so on, they you should add |lang=fr
to the template, if the source was in French. If the reference is plain text, then add "(in French)" in parentheses after copying it over.) If the reference contains a citation in French in quotation marks (French uses guillemets), don't translate it, unless you're confident about your language ability; in no case use online translators; let someone else do it in that case.
P.S. I just noticed you had a couple of conversations above that got kind of long, and out of hand in some places. Per WP:OWNTALK, you can do pretty much what you want with this page, and if you want to collapse material, archive it, or even remove it, you can. I archive my page manually, when I feel like, but automatic archiving is also available. Manual archiving is easy: just create a user sub-page called User talk:FactOrOpinion/Archive 1, move whatever discussions you want over there, stick {{tan}}
at the top of the page (or use one of the other Archive templates), and save. If you add {{Talk header}}
to the top of *this* page, it will create a box with links to all your archive pages, and a search box. Mathglot (talk) 19:05, 10 July 2020 (UTC)
- @Mathglot: Thanks for the info about both the citations and collapsing / archiving. I'd left the conversations above because David Tornheim had linked to them from the Flynn talk page, as they contain some content relevant to that, and even though he also posted permalinks along with the live links, I figured I'd just leave them. But it's good to learn that I can collapse them, and maybe I'll archive anyway since David included the permalinks. -- FactOrOpinion (talk) 19:40, 10 July 2020 (UTC)
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Multiple infoboxes
[edit]Hi, FactOrOpinion, somewhere you asked me about multiple infoboxes on a page, and I believe I said that it wasn't recommended or usual or something, I don't remember (if you know where the discussion is, can you link it here?). If I said that in a way that sounded black-and-white, I wanted to revise that. First of all, guidelines are just that, and if using multiple Infoboxes would uphold Wikipedia policies better than not using them, or if it somehow otherwise improves the article for the user, then I would say, go ahead and use them. I had your question in the back of my mind, while working on Draft:Government of Vichy France, and in fact, added multiple Infoboxes there, where I think the parallel structure, and short vertical height of the boxes add, rather than detract, from the article. In the end, it will be up to other editors to see whether the boxes remain, or not; so in a sense, consensus is the ultimate arbiter on questions like this. Anyway, if I said in my previous response anything categorical, like "never do this", then I wanted to amend that to something more like, "this is not usually done", but I just went against the usual pattern, and did it. HTH, Mathglot (talk) 09:47, 26 July 2020 (UTC)
- Hi Mathglot, here's the link to my question about infoboxes and your response: [38]. I apologize that I still haven't contributed to the Liberation of France draft. It just seemed that Elinruby and Rjensen were doing a lot of editing initially, and they are knowledgeable about this content and experienced editors, whereas I'm not, and I thought it would be wiser for me to wait and then pitch in later. -- FactOrOpinion (talk) 14:26, 26 July 2020 (UTC)
- Hi, and thanks. You never have to apologize for not doing something here, it's a volunteer project. I'm happy for whatever you do do to improve the encyclopedia, in whatever corner of it that interests you. Mathglot (talk) 05:47, 27 July 2020 (UTC)
Watchlists
[edit]Watchlisting a section
[edit]At Talk:United States v. Flynn#Closing the split discussion @13:43, 8 July, you wrote,
one other question re: watchlists. I don't see any way to watchlist only a section of a page rather than the entire page (what I mentioned earlier re: "whether I can limit notifications to edits of a specific section of the Talk page"). Is this possible?
Often asked for on en-wiki, but so far, no. But some Wikipedias (fr-wiki) and sister projects (Wikimedia) have it. Here are some resources to check out about that:
- MediaWiki:Topic on User talk:Levivich#Section watchlisting
- MediaWiki:Topic on Talk:Watchlist wishlist/Archive 1#watching a specific section
- mw:Talk pages consultation 2019/Phase 1 report#Watchlist
- Phabricator: T2738 Ability to watch section levels of pages
And this page: mw:Talk pages project – it doesn't talk about it, but is probably the place to raise your question, if you want to take it up with them. The software is run by Wikimedia Foundation (WMF), which hosts Wikipedia, so watchlisting sections is probably a software change; the website of Wikimedia, is MediaWiki(.org). The linked article is the place to go to ask about watchlisting sections, or at least the place to ask where to go. Mathglot (talk) 09:37, 30 July 2020 (UTC)
- @Mathglot: Thanks for the info about existing discussions re: watchlisting a section. (Peripherally related re: WMF, I went to an edit-a-thon last year that was led by someone who works for WMF, and I had a brief exchange with her this year when I was trying to learn whether anyone had set up a wiki for sharing COVID-19 info that doesn't belong on WP, as there had been a lot of discussion on a local listserv about food resources, mask-making, etc., and I was interested in making it easier for people in my county to share info. She referred me to a site that an experienced editor had set up as an experiment, [39], but at that point, I was too inexperienced an editor to even know that I was supposed to sign the comment I'd left on his talk page, and it looks like he ultimately decided to use a different platform for his plan. I should actually go back to that site and drop him a note now that I understand a bit more about editing.) -- FactOrOpinion (talk) 17:41, 30 July 2020 (UTC)
Watching fast-moving pages
[edit]You also asked,
I'm asking because I'd like to be able to add something to my watchlist from the RS/N discussion that I started, but the RS/N page gets so much discussion that if I watchlist the entire page, the list of edits from that page overwhelms the rest of my watchlist. How do you manage your own watchlist so that you're able to see what's helpful but not have it feel overwhelming?
I'm not sure what you mean. Doesn't it bunch all the edits from RS/N into a single entry? For example, I get WP:ANI near the top of my Watchlist, but right now there are 33 edits from 12 editors and it wraps onto 3 lines, but that's it. That's only a tiny, tiny percentage of the vertical height of the page, which is 18 pages (screensful) in my browser, with my settings requesting the last 800 changes in the past 14 days. So, what do you mean, it "overwhelms the rest" of your watchlist? Mathglot (talk) 09:37, 30 July 2020 (UTC)
- @Mathglot: No, my watchlist doesn't bunch edits together. Each edit is on a separate line, listed in reverse chronological order. For example, here's what it looks like for a subset of 5 comments, including your comments here today (but on my actual watchlist, much of this text is hyperlinked):
- (diff | hist)..Wikipedia talk:Verifiability; 10:45..(+261)..North8000 (talk | contribs)..(→Let's define self-published sources: +cmt)
- (diff | hist)..User talk:FactOrOpinion; 09:37..(+1,009)..Mathglot (talk | contribs)..(→Watchlisting a section: About fastmoving pages like RSN ovewhelming your list.)
- (diff | hist)..User talk:FactOrOpinion; 09:26..(+63)..Mathglot (talk | contribs)..(→Watchlisting a section: Add one)
- (diff | hist)..User talk:FactOrOpinion; 09:23..(+1,419)..Mathglot (talk | contribs)..(→Watchlisting a section: Some sister projects have it, but en-wiki doesn't.)
- (diff | hist)..Wikipedia talk:Verifiability; 08:19..(+334)..Newslinger (talk | contribs)..(→Let's define self-published sources: Prefer Masem's)
- So you can see that the 2 edits to the WP:V talk page are separated because your edits here came in between time-wise. I looked to see whether this is a matter of how I have my preferences set up, but didn't see any option that allows me to group edits by watched page. So what I meant earlier is that if I add RS/N to my watchlist, the plurality and perhaps majority of the edits listed on my watchlist will come from that one page (I'm not watching that many pages, and the rest get many fewer edits), all interspersed in reverse chronological order, making it harder for me to keep track of edits on other pages in my list. It's OK, I dealt with that by simply visiting the RS/N periodically to see whether there was anything new posted to the section I'd started. But if there are other preferences available for watchlists that would be good for me to know about, I'd appreciate your letting me know. And thanks again for your general willingness to take time to my answer questions. You're always patient and encouraging. -- FactOrOpinion (talk) 17:41, 30 July 2020 (UTC)
- hmm... I get them all nicely bunched, with a little, right-facing triangle, that if I click, expands the list into all the edits on that page:
- Here's how it looks, in default, collapsed state:
excerpt from my default watchlist
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August 2, 2020
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- And here's how it changes, if I click the first triangle:
excerpt from watchlist, with one item expanded
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- If you click the third one, it expands into a really long list. It looks like this format is the one you want; but I don't remember what I did to get it this way. Is there anything at WP:WATCHLIST? Mathglot (talk) 21:06, 2 August 2020 (UTC)
- @Mathglot: Thanks, it's interesting to learn that a different display is possible. I looked at WP:WATCHLIST and don't see anything about it there, but that page then refers to more into at WP:CUSTOMWATCH, which in turn links to Wikipedia:User_scripts/List#Watchlist, so I'll explore some more. -- FactOrOpinion (talk) 21:38, 2 August 2020 (UTC)
- Hmm, I started thinking about whether I had a script enabled, too; but I don't see anything in my common.js; I'll have to look around. Mathglot (talk) 21:45, 2 August 2020 (UTC)
- Or just go to the Tea House, and ask there; a link back here might help them. If they don't know, WP:VPT definitely will; but try TEA first. Mathglot (talk) 21:52, 2 August 2020 (UTC)
- @Mathglot: Thanks, it's interesting to learn that a different display is possible. I looked at WP:WATCHLIST and don't see anything about it there, but that page then refers to more into at WP:CUSTOMWATCH, which in turn links to Wikipedia:User_scripts/List#Watchlist, so I'll explore some more. -- FactOrOpinion (talk) 21:38, 2 August 2020 (UTC)
- If you click the third one, it expands into a really long list. It looks like this format is the one you want; but I don't remember what I did to get it this way. Is there anything at WP:WATCHLIST? Mathglot (talk) 21:06, 2 August 2020 (UTC)
Try this: go to: Preferences - Watchlist - Advanced Options - Expand watchlist to show all changes, not just the most recent, and see if that fixes it. Mathglot (talk) 05:33, 3 August 2020 (UTC)
- @Mathglot: That didn't work, but it prompted me to explore the Preferences more, and I found it under Recent changes - Advanced options - Group changes by page in recent changes and watchlist. -- FactOrOpinion (talk) 11:49, 3 August 2020 (UTC)
- Oh, great, glad you found it! Mathglot (talk) 17:25, 3 August 2020 (UTC)
Culling after a split, when the OP has moved on
[edit]Hi, this is kind of an addendum to the comments at MF about the housekeeping after the split to USvF. In general, after a split copying material from A to B, one goes back to A to cut the material out of A, leaving only a summary (see WP:SS). That could be a 90% reduction in the section in A that was copied (depends of course on circumstances). If A remains stable after the copy, while not simple, at least it's straightforward. If the A section moves on, especially with expansion, it becomes more difficult. Here's one way to approach that.
I don't know if this will help make the next cull easier, but here's a technique I use, involving three windows. Because the MF article has moved on since the copy to USvF with a lot of new material added, including in the section you copied earlier, there are three diffs or permalinks of interest, now: 1. MF currently, i.e., the version you will be shortening; 2. USvF Diff at the time you added the material (the link in the summary), and 3. MF rev (permalink) at the time #2 happened. The cull now needs to come out of #1, but the addition at 2 happened when MF looked like 3, not 1. It might help you, to reminds yourself of how it looked then and what you did; you can do that by opening 2 and 3 in two side-by-side, tall, skinny windows, and scroll them independently to the same section, to line them up and see what you happened back then. It will make it easier to see what should be culled from 1 now, even though 1 has moved on.
Here's where the third window comes in. You can add a diff of 1 and 3 there, to see how the cull would have to happen now. If there isn't a lot of room for a third window, instead of a 1-3 diff, you can use a permalink to 1 and do a visual diff. Do you know the principle of a blink microscope? If you carefully line up two windows with almost the same text over each other, and then use the keyboard shortcut for alternating window focus between the last two windows (on my setup, it's ALT+Tab) very rapidly, it will swap the images of the two windows, and the changed text will jump out at you because of the way human perception works. To do this, place a permalink to 1 in the window, and lay it over #3 at the identical window height and width, scrolling 1 and 3 until the unchanged text matches. Now you can use your kb shortcut to swap, which will simultaneously show you what changed between 1 & 3, as well as comparing each of them to 2 in turn. Does this make sense? This works best for small changes; the slightly different position of Pluto against the identical fields of fixed stars on two plates, jumped out at Clyde Tombaugh when a blink microscope showed him both plates in rapid succession. If there had been hundreds of planets, it wouldn't have worked so well.
If you want to try this, the effect is startling. Open these two links in two windows: Special:permalink/967515794 and Special:permalink/967536392. Make sure the window sizes are identical. Scroll each one until the section header "Background" is right at the top border. Now, drag them so they are superimposed, exactly. Use your window swap shorcut (Alt+Tab on windows) to flip between them. You'll probably have to adjust one of the windows slightly; they have to be superimposed exactly, pixel for pixel, for this to work properly. Watch the "Background" section header, adjusting one of the windows, until the section title doesn't move at all when you swap between windows, it just flickers. Now, you're ready. Hit the shortcut key as fast as you can, so that the image you're looking at rapidly switches from one window to the other. Now let your eye focus go limp, sort of, and expand, so you're seeing the whole image. As the image flickers back and forth before you, your eye should be drawn to exactly what has changed on the page. That is the "blink microscope" effect.
I don't know if this will help in the MF - USvF split housekeeping case, because it depends on how far MF has moved on since the original copy to USvF, but it might. HTH, Mathglot (talk) 20:30, 2 August 2020 (UTC)
- Based on your comments at Talk:MF, I might've misread why the diff appeared to show added material; this whole section may be moot, wrt the MF->USvF case; but hopefully will help you some other time. Mathglot (talk) 21:34, 2 August 2020 (UTC)
- Thanks, I appreciate your willingness to spend time explaining things that may be helpful, and I wasn't familiar with a blink microscope, and it was interesting to learn about that. I looked up the images for Pluto: [40] Unrelated, this bit of science reminded me that I was curious about your name. Do you have an interest in math? -- FactOrOpinion (talk) 22:05, 2 August 2020 (UTC)
Your thread has been archived
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Hi FactOrOpinion! The thread you created at the Wikipedia:Teahouse,
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University of California, Berkeley
[edit]FactOrOpinion, thank you for your recent thoughtful comments at Talk:University of California, Berkeley, such as this one: [41]. Attic Salt (talk) 16:53, 26 August 2020 (UTC)
- @Attic Salt: I'm glad that it came across that way, and I appreciate your taking the time to drop me a note. I sometimes struggle with how to respond in a productive way, but that's certainly my goal. -- FactOrOpinion (talk) 17:19, 26 August 2020 (UTC)
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