User talk:Ravpapa/Archive 6

Ronn Torossian

Please fix link for former Serbian President Boris Tadić: Thank you Juda S. Engelmayer (talk)

Done, thank you --Ravpapa (talk) 15:21, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

I didn't create the RFC, but you're right that I won't comment on it. Juda S. Engelmayer (talk) 11:29, 29 April 2014 (UTC)

My sincerest apologies. You were the last person to edit the page, so I thought it was you who called for the RFC. I should have checked back through previous edits. I have deleted my comment. --Ravpapa (talk) 13:24, 29 April 2014 (UTC)

-- Reaching Out --

I have to disagree strongly with you on your last comment the RT talk page. The very fact that the subject of a BLP reaches out rather than edits him/herself is indeed the right practice. Editing one's page can be a COI, but explaining his POV to editors, so they could have more than just what's written to fully appreciate the situation is proper. The whole notion of the precautions for BLP guidelines is to prevent Wiki from engaging in potentially harmful actions that can have broader implications. Who better than to make the case than the LP him/herself? Granted it is also a subjective POV, but that is no different than reading POVs from editors and media. A Wikipedia editor hearing the case brought by the individual can make what s/he wants of it, but there is value in listening. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia type resource, not an opinion medium for everyone but those it is written about. Juda S. Engelmayer (talk) 18:42, 2 May 2014 (UTC)

Juda, are you suggesting that Ronn has edited the talk page of the page about him? Beware WP:OUTING here. User:Babasalichai is banned from Wikipedia for very good reasons, by the way. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 21:03, 2 May 2014 (UTC)

Demiurge: Juda is not suggesting that Torossian has edited the page, but is referring to the fact that Torossian has been making direct contact with editors and trying to convince them to change the article to be more in line with his own vision of himself, or at least with the image of himself that he would like to project.

As for Juda's contention that contacting editors is better than editing the article oneself - yes, you are right in a banal sort of way. I have myself spoken on occasion with subjects of articles, but always to clear up questions of fact (what year were you really born in?). But Torossian is not trying to correct errors of fact, but errors of spin. Of course Torossian would like the article to say that he is the consummate scrappy publicist who goes all out for his clients. Of course he would like to keep is personal political opinions out of the article. Of course he would like the article to ignore criticisms of unethical and repugnant business practices and personal behavior. Of course he would like to delete (or at least bury) comments classifying his political views as "lunatic fringe".

So, no, lobbying editors to slant an article is not the right practice. And in Torossian's case, where he has exercised those same unethical and repugnant business practices in his campaign against Wikipedia, it is not, indeed. --Ravpapa (talk) 03:22, 3 May 2014 (UTC)

May 2014

Hello, I'm BracketBot. I have automatically detected that your edit to Große Fuge may have broken the syntax by modifying 1 "()"s and 1 "<>"s. If you have, don't worry: just edit the page again to fix it. If I misunderstood what happened, or if you have any questions, you can leave a message on my operator's talk page.

List of unpaired brackets remaining on the page:

• dismissed the work. [[Daniel Gregory Mason]] called it "repellent",<ref>Kerman (1979), p. 294)</ref> a reviewer writing for ''[[Allgemeine musikalische Zeitung]]'' in 1826 described the fugue
• me he would reflect on it, but already on the next day I received a letter giving his agreement>"<ref>Thayer' ''Ludwig van Beethovens Leben''. quoted in Solomon (1977), p 449</ref>

It's OK to remove this message. Also, to stop receiving these messages, follow these opt-out instructions. Thanks, BracketBot (talk) 16:32, 21 May 2014 (UTC)

June 2014

Hello, I'm BracketBot. I have automatically detected that your edit to Große Fuge may have broken the syntax by modifying 1 "()"s. If you have, don't worry: just edit the page again to fix it. If I misunderstood what happened, or if you have any questions, you can leave a message on my operator's talk page.

List of unpaired brackets remaining on the page:

• viola, Paul Watkins, cello), from their album "LUDWIG VAN BEETHOVEN: The Late String Quartets" (Deutche Gramaphon, 02 May 2003</ref>

It's OK to remove this message. Also, to stop receiving these messages, follow these opt-out instructions. Thanks, BracketBot (talk) 13:56, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

Steveies

I agree the notability is in question. As for that one article you asked for, though, [1]. There is no requirement (unfortunately) that the coverage be current.

You had concerns about the verifiability of a couple references, I'll check that and do what I can. More or less, if you search for the award on Google Books you should find the relevant snippets. When the only coverage in Google Books boils down to "you should totally apply for this to market yourself", I don't believe it's particularly synthetic to indicate that. I could replace it, arguably with no synthesis, with a reception section giving quotes from each of the three books, but I prefer the lower weight of the summary. --j⚛e decker^talk 15:25, 24 June 2014 (UTC)

Update on the verifiabiilty, the links were working for me fine on the first and third of the tree, the second one ... Google Books links are doing some magic, and I was being taken to a different page when I cut and pasted the URL than using the same link from within the article. In any case, it's fixed now, and on page 117. The first reference works for me, but may be hard to find, it's bottom right on the 2-page spread. In any case, let me know if you have further verifying those sources. And no, I don't claim they provide indications of notability. --j⚛e decker^talk 15:35, 24 June 2014 (UTC)

Birnbaum source

The AFD has been closed as keep, based on an inaccurate assessment of consensus, as far as I can tell, so I have queried the closing admin about his rationale and judgment.

Meanwhile, since I don't read Hebrew, would you mind translating the relevant passages that I have characterized as fringe (i.e., concubines of Abraham, etymology of "Brahmin") as inserted into the "Ancient history" section of the article? If so, please let me know and post that on the article talk page. As you have indicated that the material itself may be interesting by has been inserted in the article in a manner that contradicts Birnbaums's presentation, I would like to see what Birnbaum was trying to say. Thanks.--Ubikwit ^連絡 _{見学/迷惑} 04:07, 30 June 2014 (UTC)

Give it a rest. We fought the battle and we lost. One more idiotic and nonsensical article in Wikipedia. Not such a tragic thing. --Ravpapa (talk) 04:22, 30 June 2014 (UTC)

You may well be right that it's a waste of time and effort, so I'll simply deal with the closing admin's judgment call on the close for now. The thing is that I've encountered such advocacy across a swath of articles related to the Ten lost tribes.--Ubikwit ^連絡 _{見学/迷惑} 04:30, 30 June 2014 (UTC)

I understand your concern. But in the current case, at least, the truth or falsity of the 10-T theory is irrelevant. All the article really says about it is that it has nothing to do with Nepal. The article is a coathanger for the story of Chabad's 1500-man Passover Seder. Everything else in the article is about why there is no history of Jews in Nepal.

--Ravpapa (talk) 05:14, 30 June 2014 (UTC)

Your submission at AfC Amihai Grosz was accepted

Amihai Grosz, which you submitted to Articles for creation, has been created.
The article has been assessed as Start-Class, which is recorded on the article's talk page. You may like to take a look at the grading scheme to see how you can improve the article.

You are more than welcome to continue making quality contributions to Wikipedia. Note that because you are a logged-in user, you can create articles yourself, and don't have to post a request. However, you may continue submitting work to Articles for Creation if you prefer.

• If you have any questions, you are welcome to ask at the help desk.
• If you would like to help us improve this process, please consider .

Thank you for helping improve Wikipedia!

--gdfusion (talk|contrib) 17:10, 15 August 2014 (UTC)

ANB discussion

There is a discussion at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Archive265#Move War at History of the Jews in Nepal, and RFC review that concerns you because you were recently involved with one or more of the related Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/History of the Jews in Nepal, Wikipedia:Deletion review/Log/2014 June 30 (History of the Jews in Nepal), Talk:History of the Jews in Nepal#RfC: Should we change article name to 'Judaism in Nepal'?. Thank you, IZAK (talk) 07:51, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

Izak, thank you for alerting me to this discussion. While I think you acted improperly in making this move, contrary to the conclusion of the RFC on the matter, I do not plan to participate. You know my opinion about the article - it has no content, and should be deleted, regardless of what it is called. So name it what you will. --Ravpapa (talk) 08:17, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

Love Story theme

I know. Nonetheless the second movement of Mozart's 21st piano concerto is for many rather associated with that film than with the 1967 Swedish film. The content of my remark at the WikiProject talk page is about the relativity of these associations. And about finding proper ways to clarify them in Wikipedia. --Francis Schonken (talk) 09:03, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

Badke Quartet

Hmm, well I just looked at it again. I do accept that they are well-known, but there were no independent references, and the wording was about as promotional as it gets. If you're willing to work on it, I'll gladly transfer the content into your sandbox. Deb (talk) 17:54, 27 October 2014 (UTC)

Sorry, I made a bit of a pig's ear out of moving the content out of your sandbox. I don't think I'd ever done a history merge before. The end result is that I've removed all the old revisions from your sandbox history. Do you want them back or can you live without them? Deb (talk) 20:48, 28 October 2014 (UTC)

Think nothing of it. Here today gone tomorrow. --Ravpapa (talk) 03:21, 29 October 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for your understanding :-) Deb (talk) 10:51, 29 October 2014 (UTC)

WP:AE misrepresentation/exaggeration on Hebrew/Israeli quotes and comparison between Arab-Israeli matters and the holocaust

Though there was no direct reply on my querry,[2] two AE executives is enough input for me. See block-log update. According to this, it is appears preferable that future allusions and intentional misrepresentation of Israeli sources should be ignored. MarciulionisHOF (talk) 11:41, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

@MarciulionisHOF:, you completely misconstrue the decision of Sandstein in the AE case you brought. He was not saying that he preferred one thing or another. He said that the dispute you brought was over content, not over behavior, and was therefore not relevant for arbitration or enforcement. Moreover, the discussion in the case was on a user talk page, not in an article, and a user is certainly entitled to air his own views on his own talk page.

As to the substance of your complaint, from my own knowledge of Matan Vilnai's politics, I agree with you that it is highly unlikely that his use of the word "shoa" suggested a comparison to the Holocaust. On the other hand, Nishidani is correct that in Hebrew, any use of the word "shoa" automatically turns on an association with the Holocaust, which is why politicians are usually very wary of using it. So, again, it boils down to a dispute over content, and the charge you brought that Nishidani is distorting statements to suit an anti-Israeli or antisemitic viewpoint is out of line.

You are being hypersensitive. I suggest you read Peter Beinart's editorial on the editorial page of Haaretz today, where he addresses exactly this attitude. Regards, --Ravpapa (talk) 14:25, 24 October 2014 (UTC)--Ravpapa (talk) 14:25, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

If I am hypersensitive, it is either because I was blocked for less[3] or because Nishidani was disrespecting my family with his completely irrelevant holocaust comparison (on Rafah massacre). I approached Nishidani in civil manner asking he retract some of his exaggerations. He admits to know it is offensive, but only pursued the matter further. It boils down to whether or not

(a) it is "content related" to always compare Jews to Nazis and Palestinians to WWII Jews? (what is the purpose?)

(b) is it ok to repeatedly use fringe opinions (Gideon Levy, Rabbi Shalom Lewis) and misrepresentations (Ovadyah Yosef¹, Matan Vilnai²) to portray Israelis as threatening 'genocide'? (what is the purpose?)

¹ Nishidani ignored the source and exaggerated a cherry pick from a full quote of Yosef.

² Nishidani ignored the source (and the input of 3 editors) and chose his own interpretation to continue using 'genocide'.

p.s. he also exaggerated and took out of context what Dov Weissglass said for the same 'genocide' point. Call me "hypersensitive", but asking him to tone it down seems proper, not battleground and a reason to sanction me for his intentional lack of sensitivity.

MarciulionisHOF (talk) 15:06, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

Well, at least I am glad that you consider Rabbi Shalom Lewis's views to be fringe. Many people in Israel and America do not. --Ravpapa (talk) 15:37, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

To use him as source for 'genocide' is a wonderful example of what Nishidani does wrong. Best I am aware, Rabbi Shalom Lewis has never been published by Ynet (Israel's biggest online news provider) or Israel Hayom (Israel's biggest circulation daily). A Google search for his name in Hebrew brings ZERO results. This non-notable in Atlanta (US) says something offensive. Virulent anti-Israeli sources Iran's PressTV and Veteran's Today quote him. Nishidani uses him(?) to justify earlier use of 'genocide' on article talkpage. (what is the purpose?) MarciulionisHOF (talk) 16:01, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

You miss my point. The views expressed by Shalom Lewis as reported here are not substantially different from views expressed by leading Israeli politicians like Miri Regev, Ayelet Shaked, Orit Struck and others. I am glad you consider these views to be fringe. --Ravpapa (talk) 04:37, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

What is the point? MarciulionisHOF (talk) 13:11, 30 October 2014 (UTC)

Are you seriously asking that question? My point is that I am glad you consider the views of Shalom Lewis, and others who agree with him (like Israeli politicians Miri Regev, Ayelet Shaked, Orit Struck and others) to be a fringe view. Is that not clear enough? --Ravpapa (talk) 21:05, 30 October 2014 (UTC)

You're lumping people of different worldviews together and saying "I'm glad you think their worldview is not mainstream". What is the view you assign to all of these barely related people? MarciulionisHOF (talk) 09:35, 31 October 2014 (UTC)

Never mind. Forget it. --Ravpapa (talk) 09:39, 31 October 2014 (UTC)

Good show. MarciulionisHOF (talk) 14:19, 31 October 2014 (UTC)

Große Fuge video

Hi Ravpapa, yes, I made the Große Fuge video. Email me (stephen@musanim.com) if you'd like to talk about it. Musanim (talk) 19:01, 3 January 2015 (UTC)

Jewish art music

Hello, Ravpapa. You have new messages at Deborahjay's talk page.
Message added 19:50, 29 March 2015 (UTC). You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{Talkback}} or {{Tb}} template.

Ronn Torossian article

I have an absolute right to use and distribute that picture. It bewilders me that people find so much issue with Ronn that they even give trouble to a photo. Please advise and help. Regardless of what you might think of the subject of this article, rights to a picture that I have should not be part of the constant commotion on his page. Juda S. Engelmayer (talk) 19:30, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

added again and with the license, which i did have on before as well. thanks Juda S. Engelmayer (talk) 15:08, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

Done.--Ravpapa (talk) 03:03, 12 April 2015 (UTC) Thank you Juda S. Engelmayer (talk) 11:58, 13 April 2015 (UTC)

TWL Questia check-in

Hello!

You are receiving this message because The Wikipedia Library has record of you receiving a one-year subscription to Questia. This is a brief update to remind you about that access:

• Make sure that you can still log in to your Questia account; if you are having trouble feel free to get in touch.
• When your account expires you can reapply for access at WP:Questia.
• Remember, if you find this source useful for your Wikipedia work, make sure to include citations with links on Wikipedia: links to partner resources are one of the few ways we can demonstrate usage and demand for accounts to our partners. The greater the linkage, the greater the likelihood a useful partnership will be renewed.
• Write unusual articles using this partner's sources? Did access to this source create new opportunities for you in the Wikipedia community? If you have a unique story to share about your contributions, email us and we can set up an opportunity for you to write a blog post about your work with one of our partner's resources.

Finally, we would greatly appreciate if you filled out this short survey. The survey helps us not only better serve you with facilitating this particular partnership, but also helps us discover what other partnerships and services The Wikipedia Library can offer.

Thanks!
Delivered by MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 12:11, 28 April 2015 (UTC)

United Synagogue:

You are editing this page without providing references, or by directly presenting material that is known to be untrue. Please be aware of this — Preceding unsigned comment added by Internetwikier (talk • contribs) 13:15, 28 April 2015 (UTC)

Click and the self-description is:'An incredibly wonderful individual who harnesses her superior literacy and vocabulary skills to educate an biased public.'

I'm still trying to figure out why 'b' in 'biased' here morphs into a vowel that requires the euphonic 'an' form of the indefinite article. I bridle in my harness at this illustration of my inferior illiteracy.Nishidani (talk) 13:21, 28 April 2015 (UTC)

I think it's because of the elided "œ" ligature - pronounced "oy, biased". --Ravpapa (talk) 13:27, 28 April 2015 (UTC)

I hope that's not a misprint for 'goy, biased', too close to the Nishidani bone for comfort! Ay? Oy! Cheers. Nishidani (talk) 14:01, 28 April 2015 (UTC)

Excellent suggestion, added Internetwikier (talk) 13:33, 28 April 2015 (UTC)

TWL Questia check-in

Hello!

You are receiving this message because The Wikipedia Library has record of you receiving a one-year subscription to Questia. This is a brief update to remind you about that access:

• Make sure that you can still log in to your Questia account; if you are having trouble feel free to get in touch.
• When your account expires you can reapply for access at WP:Questia.
• Remember, if you find this source useful for your Wikipedia work, make sure to include citations with links on Wikipedia: links to partner resources are one of the few ways we can demonstrate usage and demand for accounts to our partners. The greater the linkage, the greater the likelihood a useful partnership will be renewed.
• Write unusual articles using this partner's sources? Did access to this source create new opportunities for you in the Wikipedia community? If you have a unique story to share about your contributions, email us and we can set up an opportunity for you to write a blog post about your work with one of our partner's resources.

Finally, we would greatly appreciate if you filled out this short survey. The survey helps us not only better serve you with facilitating this particular partnership, but also helps us discover what other partnerships and services The Wikipedia Library can offer.

Thanks! Delivered by MediaWiki message delivery (talk), on behalf of National Names 2000 10:41, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

Elance editing

I think WP:PE is the relevant policy here. He's free to edit on behalf of someone else, but he's not disclosing the arrangement and engaging in discussions pretending to be a disinterested party. I'm away from my home computer for most of the day but I can start a report on WP:COI, possibly tonight. Not exactly sure what the sanctions are, though. Mosmof (talk) 14:49, 30 May 2015 (UTC)

I leave the matter in your capable hands. If you need anything from me, drop me a line. --Ravpapa (talk) 15:04, 30 May 2015 (UTC)

United Synagogue

I have added a response to your rant on the admins discussion page. I'd suggest that you find the time to find some new quotes / sources as the altering of direct quotes does not fall within purview as a wiki contributor.

I have no issue with information ADDED to the page - but you don't do this. All you do is remove / reverse changes. Please add new sources and stop your racist denigrating of Iranian news organizations which have just as much right to exist as FOX news.Internetwikier (talk) 13:18, 5 June 2015 (UTC)

Criticism of the US

Hi. I'm confused. Neither of the two references you've given seem to mention the United Synagogue. --Dweller (talk) 09:39, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

You are right. You will find specific references to United Synagogue on their websites. But I thought that it would be a bit over the edge to cite their websites. But, in fact, the whole thing is kind of iffy. Maybe you were right the first time, we should just delete it. --Ravpapa (talk) 10:17, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

<post moving to Talk:United Synagogue. --Dweller (talk) 10:50, 17 June 2015 (UTC)>

The Wikipedia Library needs you!

We hope The Wikipedia Library has been a useful resource for your work. TWL is expanding rapidly and we need your help!

With only a couple hours per week, you can make a big difference for sharing knowledge. Please sign up and help us in one of these ways:

• Account coordinators: help distribute free research access
• Partner coordinators: seek new donations from partners
• Communications coordinators: share updates in blogs, social media, newsletters and notices
• Technical coordinators: advise on building tools to support the library's work
• Outreach coordinators: connect to university libraries, archives, and other GLAMs
• Research coordinators: run reference services

Sign up now

Send on behalf of The Wikipedia Library using MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 04:31, 7 July 2015 (UTC)

Re:GoldMoney

The article at the time of the afd and the article as it appears here were enough alike that G4 applied, so I exercised that right to delete the article on grounds that the recreated version and the deleted version were essentially the same. TomStar81 (Talk) 06:00, 18 July 2015 (UTC)

Tibet at List of Military Occupations

Hi, I don't know if you're active anymore but I'm trying to resurrect the Tibet discussion at the List of Military Occupation if you want to chime in. Sir Joseph ^(talk) 05:12, 20 November 2015 (UTC)

ArbCom elections are now open!

Hi,
You appear to be eligible to vote in the current Arbitration Committee election. The Arbitration Committee is the panel of editors responsible for conducting the Wikipedia arbitration process. It has the authority to enact binding solutions for disputes between editors, primarily related to serious behavioural issues that the community has been unable to resolve. This includes the ability to impose site bans, topic bans, editing restrictions, and other measures needed to maintain our editing environment. The arbitration policy describes the Committee's roles and responsibilities in greater detail. If you wish to participate, you are welcome to review the candidates' statements and submit your choices on the voting page. For the Election committee, MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 12:58, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

Invitation to a virtual editathon on Women in Music

Women in Music
	10 to 31 January 2016 Please join us in the worldwide virtual edit-a-thon hosted by Women in Red.

--Ipigott (talk) 16:26, 5 January 2016 (UTC)

Amalia Carneri

Hi, I have much more original source material to support her inclusion. How do I forward PDF files? And photos?

Before I began I found her name in Wikipedia, a listing of Austrian opera singers under "C."

Also have the Shoah Directory listing of her death at Treblinka found on Ancestry.com and JewishGen. How do I post that information?

Thank you for your interest. Nancy Nancypolk1 (talk) 05:24, 27 January 2016 (UTC)

Help me!

I have nominated the article Javier Pérez Garrido for deletion and made a complete mess of it. Usually I can figure these things out by myself, but, alas, I need for someone else to pull the deletion discussion out of the morass.

Thanks, Ravpapa (talk) 14:48, 21 March 2016 (UTC)

Hey there, I fixed it as of this edit. —Skyllfully ^(talk | _contribs) 15:52, 21 March 2016 (UTC)

thanks to you, --Ravpapa (talk) 17:04, 21 March 2016 (UTC)

The distinction between ethnic and religious

Re: "What I am saying is that the distinction between "ethnic" and "religious" is not clear at all; that people who say "I am a Jew" are not making this distinction, and that your rejection of such a statement as verification of a person's religious identification is unjustified..."':[4]

• "For Orthodox Jews like Rabbi Tubul, the solution is simple and ancient: you are a Jew if your mother is Jewish, or if your conversion to Judaism accorded with the Halacha, Jewish religious law. Gentiles might be surprised that for Jews by birth this traditional test makes no reference to faith or behaviour. Jews may be atheist (many are: apostasy is a venerable Jewish tradition) and still Jews."[5]
• "It is important to note that being a Jew has nothing to do with what you believe or what you do. A person born to non-Jewish parents who has not undergone the formal process of conversion but who believes everything that Orthodox Jews believe and observes every law and custom of Judaism is still a non-Jew, even in the eyes of the most liberal movements of Judaism, and a person born to a Jewish mother who is an atheist and never practices the Jewish religion is still a Jew, even in the eyes of the ultra-Orthodox. In this sense, Judaism is more like a nationality than like other religions, and being Jewish is like a citizenship."[6][7]
• "The practices and beliefs held by Jews range from those who openly identify as Orthodox and strictly observe ancient precepts to those that have nothing to do with the religion or culture."[8]
• " Clearly, there is a religion called Judaism, a set of ideas about the world and the way we should live our lives that is called "Judaism." It is studied in Religious Studies courses and taught to Jewish children in Hebrew schools. See What do Jews Believe? for details. There is a lot of flexibility about certain aspects of those beliefs, and a lot of disagreement about specifics, but that flexibility is built into the organized system of belief that is Judaism. However, many people who call themselves Jews do not believe in that religion at all! More than half of all Jews in Israel today call themselves "secular," and don't believe in G-d or any of the religious beliefs of Judaism. Half of all Jews in the United States don't belong to any synagogue. They may practice some of the rituals of Judaism and celebrate some of the holidays, but they don't think of these actions as religious activities. The most traditional Jews and the most liberal Jews and everyone in between would agree that these secular people are still Jews, regardless of their disbelief. See Who is a Jew? Clearly, then, there is more to being Jewish than just a religion."[9]
• "In 1983, the Reform Jewish Movement decided that it would accept as Jewish anybody who has one Jewish parent (i.e. mother or father) and who was raised Jewishly. This policy of "patrilineality," as it is called, is one of the points of disagreement between traditional and Reform Judaism since some people can now be considered Jewish by one movement but not the other. ... If you consider yourself a Christian, say, and act accordingly, then you would be considered a Christian by Reform, but as a bad Jew by the Orthodox!"[10]
• "I want to simply explain the Orthodox stance, and demonstrate that it is and was the original Jewish definition. ... The original and current Jewish definition of a born Jew is someone whose mother is Jewish."[11]
• "On the one hand, being Jewish is a matter of religion – the traditional, matrilineal definition of Jewish identity is founded on halakha (Jewish religious law). On the other hand, being Jewish also may be a matter of ancestry, ethnicity and cultural background."[12]
• "Historically, Judaism has held that a Jew is anyone born to a Jewish mother or converted to Judaism in a halakhic manner (that is, according to Jewish law). A halakhic conversion usually means that one is converting out of personal conviction–he or she believes the Torah to be the absolute truth–and has studied Jewish laws and traditions."[13]
• "A Jew is any person whose mother was a Jew or any person who has gone through the formal process of conversion in full compliance with Jewish law. It is important to note that being a Jew has nothing to do with what you believe or what you do. "[14]
• "Back when he was Israel’s Minister of Justice, the irrepressible and ever-creative Yossi Beilin put forward a proposal for secular conversion to Judaism. As he explained, 'It is simply unimaginable that in the 21st century, a time in which most of world Jewry is not religious, we should continue to grant certain religious establishments the right to define "who is a Jew." ' "[15]
• "The parents of 7-year-old Lihi Goldstein weren't thinking about their daughter's future wedding when they adopted her as a toddler. Israelis Amit and Regina Goldstein picked the blue-eyed girl from a crowd of children at an orphanage in Ukraine. They didn't know her family's religious background, but it didn't matter to them, says father Amit Goldstein. They are Jewish — so she would be, too. 'She lives in a Jewish house, in a Jewish family,' Goldstein says, describing their life as largely secular but observing 'the basics' of Jewish practice. That includes saying a prayer on Friday night, going to synagogue on Yom Kippur and not working on Saturday, the Jewish Sabbath. 'That's what she knows,' Goldstein says. But that's not enough for Israel's chief rabbinate to consider Lihi Goldstein Jewish."[16]
• "Each Israeli must carry an identity card, which has a line indicating 'nationality.' One would think that an Israeli citizen would have the word 'Israeli' on that line. Not so. The nationality of any Jew is 'Jew.'"[17]
• "The 1950 Law of Return said that every Jew had the right to immigrate to Israel. In 1970, a Jew was defined as:'[a] person who was born of a Jewish mother or has become converted to Judaism and who is not a member of another religion.' These Jews, their spouses, children, grandchildren, and the spouses of their children and grandchildren were all allowed to make aliyah [move to Israel] provided they did not join a different religion after identifying as a Jew."[18]
• "The question of 'Who is a Jew?' has been answered many ways throughout history. In biblical history, Jewish identity was determined through the father. Numerous Israelites and Kings married non-Jewish women and their children together were considered to be Jewish. These women “converted” through marriage because they joined the clan, the people, and the religion. This practice was altered during the advent of the Rabbinic Period and continues today, where according to Halacha, traditional Jewish law, a Jew is a person who is born to a Jewish mother, regardless of faith or religious practice.1 A more liberal interpretation of the law was accepted by the Reform Movement in America in 1983; it also includes a person born to a Jewish father, if he or she is raised in Jewish home.2 Confronted by the growing realities of intermarriage in America, this inclusion of patrilineal descent was adopted in an understanding that only one parent who chooses to raise a child in a Jewish home is needed for that child to be considered Jewish."[19]
• "In the most comprehensive study of American Jews in 12 years, a strong majority said being Jewish is mostly about ancestry or culture, not the religious practice of Judaism."[20]
• "It may sound powerful rhetorically, but the definition of a Jew does not depend on your beliefs, the way the definition of a Muslim or a Christian does. A Muslim, by definition, believes that Mohammed is a prophet, and a Christian that Jesus is the Christ. However, a Jew is defined simply as the child of a Jew, or as someone who has converted to Judaism. So whilst Jewishness includes a religious definition, it is not limited by this."[21]
• "Who is a Jew? I have always been under the assumption that being Jewish meant being of the Jewish faith, and/or being of the Jewish race. Please let me know if this is correct." The Aish Rabbi Replies: " 'Being Jewish' is a technical status that requires citizenship in the Jewish nation, like being a U.S. citizen. Citizenship acquired in one of two ways: (1) Born Jew: Jewishness is passed on via the mother. If the mother is Jewish, the child is 100% Jewish. If only the father is Jewish (but not the mother), then the child is 100% not Jewish. Jewish identity passed on through the mother has been universally accepted by Jews for 3,300 years, and was decided by God, as recorded in the Five Books of Moses in Deut. 7:3-4. The Talmud (Kiddushin 68b) explains how this law is evident from those passages. According to Jewish law, this will remain the person's status forever. There is no way one can lose his status as a Jew even if he does not formally practice Judaism, and even if he has gone so far as to convert to another religion. (2) Conversion: If a non-Jew wants to become a Jew he can do so by converting. Because of this, Judaism is clearly not a "blood-race." There are Chinese Jews, African Jews, Eskimo Jews, etc."[22]

Note: I can find no source that supports the notion that the only meaning is the religious meaning. --Guy Macon (talk) 17:48, 23 April 2016 (UTC)

For the life of me I cannot see how all these quotes support your making a clear distinction between ethnic and religious Judaism. No one says that being Jewish does not include both ethnic and religious elements. But what in these quotes suggests that when someone says "I am a Jew" they mean one or the other? Almost universally, as these quotes all suggest, they do not make this distinction; that you cannot decide that when people declare that they are Jewish, they mean they eat gefilte fish but don't say the morning prayer. And even if they don't say the morning prayer, they might still be deeply religious. Your insistence on separating these two elements of Jewish identity is completely unfounded in these citations. Ravpapa (talk) 03:13, 24 April 2016 (UTC)

Words have meaning. When you write "...your rejection of such a statement ["I am a Jew"] as verification of a person's religious identification is unjustified..." you are claiming that the statement is verification of a person's religious identification. All of the references above say that sometimes it is and sometimes it isn't, and thus my rejection of such a statement as verification of a person's religious identification is completely justified. --Guy Macon (talk) 10:50, 24 April 2016 (UTC)

Stanley Milgram and Judaism

Hi Ravpapa—what is the source for information regarding Stanley Milgram and Judaism, such as temple membership, Bar mitzvah, Jewish wedding etc.? Or could you just post that source or those sources at the Threaded Discussion[23]? Thanks. Bus stop (talk) 04:53, 5 May 2016 (UTC)

I posted the sources in the previous discussion: "he was married in a Jewish religious ceremony at the Brotherhood Synagogue in New York in 1961 (Blass, p. 74), his daughter was confirmed in the Riverdale Temple in 1979 and his son was Bar Mitzvahed in the same temple in 1980 (Blass, p. 244)". Membership in the Riverdale Temple would be a prerequisite for registering his children in the religious school. Regards, Ravpapa (talk) 05:40, 5 May 2016 (UTC)

Would that be the same Marc Milgram of https://www.facebook.com/marc.milgram who graduated from Riverdale Country School ( http://www.riverdale.edu/ ) at 5250 Fieldston Road Bronx, NY 10471 in 1984?

Do you have a citation showing that Marc Milgram attended Riverdale Temple Religious School [ http://riverdaletemple.org/study/religious-school ] at 4545 Independence Avenue Bronx, NY 10471?

Note that attendance at Riverdale Temple Religious School is not necessarily a requirement for bar mitzvah. As it says at [ http://www.riverdaletemple.org/worship-rd/life-cycle-events ], Unaffiliated families who find themselves desiring a bar or bat mitzvah celebration for their children are encouraged to contact Rabbi Lewis to discuss the options.

More importantly, do you have a citation showing that Stanley Milgram, as opposed to his son, was a member of Riverdale Temple or any other temple?

You are correct that some synagogues and temples do not require membership for bar mitzva, but they all require membership for enrollment in religious school, which is a a requirement for confirmation (his daughter was confirmed) (from the website: "Tuition for grades 4-7 (Sunday and Thursday) is $650, membership in the temple is required,"). The son could not be a member - children alone cannot be members of temples or synagogues. The entire family are members.

However, you are correct in insisting on more substantial evidence beyond this deduction that he was a member of the temple. I am looking for it now, If I find it, I will post on the RFC.

In any case, I am glad you are now accepting documentation other than "direct speech" as you demanded earlier in these discussions. That was my main point in the discussion, and we seem now to be in agreement on the matter. I consider this an important step toward consensus. Ravpapa (talk) 08:37, 5 May 2016 (UTC)

References: Page74:[24] Page 244:[25] --Guy Macon (talk) 06:44, 5 May 2016 (UTC)

ArbCom Elections 2016: Voting now open!

Hello, Ravpapa. Voting in the 2016 Arbitration Committee elections is open from Monday, 00:00, 21 November through Sunday, 23:59, 4 December to all unblocked users who have registered an account before Wednesday, 00:00, 28 October 2016 and have made at least 150 mainspace edits before Sunday, 00:00, 1 November 2016.

The Arbitration Committee is the panel of editors responsible for conducting the Wikipedia arbitration process. It has the authority to impose binding solutions to disputes between editors, primarily for serious conduct disputes the community has been unable to resolve. This includes the authority to impose site bans, topic bans, editing restrictions, and other measures needed to maintain our editing environment. The arbitration policy describes the Committee's roles and responsibilities in greater detail.

If you wish to participate in the 2016 election, please review the candidates' statements and submit your choices on the voting page. MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 22:08, 21 November 2016 (UTC)

Help with MEMRI's "Projects" section?

Hello, Ravpapa.

I work for the Middle East Media Research Institute. The organization would like help updating our article as we know we should not make changes ourselves.

I see from the edit and Talk page history that you have worked on the article in the past, and helped other editors make constructive changes. Would you be willing to look at some new changes I’ve proposed for the Projects section? I posted a message on the Talk page last month. There's been one response to it, but I'd like some other points of view. If you have time, I'd be interested in your feedback.

If you are unable to help, would you be willing to share any thoughts on others I might reach out to? Thank you. R at MEMRI (talk) 00:35, 21 January 2017 (UTC)

Noticed your comment

Hi Ravpapa, I noticed your comment on the Nissan_Caravan talkpage. Firstly, thanks for endorsing what to me seems like goodwilled common sense. Secondly, yeah, that edit summary Dicklyon left kinda' astounded me. I'm curious though as to how it came to your attention? Was it flagged somewhere for having used an ad hominem expletive or ...? Trying to get a better idea of how the wiki is functioning that such on a personal userspace talkpage might catch another's notice. I guess my page might be on your watchlist ... but my wiki activity has been so sparse and infrequent over the last year or so I'm inclined to assume not many folks would generally find it of interest ... Anyway, thanks in advance for any feedback to help satisfy my curiosity. --Kevjonesin (talk) 07:05, 2 February 2017 (UTC)

Your page is on my watchlist because I wrote to you about United Synagogue a year or so ago. Scroll back through your talkpage and you will find my post. Regards, Ravpapa (talk) 17:12, 2 February 2017 (UTC)

Ah, tnx. Sorry that it seems to have been heavy on the drama recently. Hopefully just a passing phase. --Kevjonesin (talk) 13:27, 3 February 2017 (UTC)

Yorim ve Bokhim

I have just noticed that several years ago, when you rewrote Music of Israel, you introduced an error which seems to have lasted, and been cited elsewhere, for more than ten years. Shalom Hanoch did not write Yorim ve Bokhim; Si Heiman wrote it herself. You may have been misled by the Hebrew Wikipedia article, which says "בשנת 1988 יצא אלבומה השני שבו נכללו חידושים לשירים "כמו צמח בר" של רחל שפירא שהולחן על ידי אביה, "שחק אותה" שלשלום חנוך ו"יורים ובוכים", שנפסל לשידור בראשית ימי האינתיפאדה בגלל תוכנו הפוליטי-תקשורתי" = ie, Sachek Ota was written by Hanoch. When I first translated the lyrics, in 1988, I correctly attributed them to Heiman. It's astonishing that an error can last this long unnoticed! RolandR (talk) 13:32, 10 November 2017 (UTC)

Thank you. I don't have any recollection where I got that from, but it was certainly wrong! Ravpapa (talk) 14:14, 10 November 2017 (UTC)

ArbCom 2017 election voter message

Hello, Ravpapa. Voting in the 2017 Arbitration Committee elections is now open until 23.59 on Sunday, 10 December. All users who registered an account before Saturday, 28 October 2017, made at least 150 mainspace edits before Wednesday, 1 November 2017 and are not currently blocked are eligible to vote. Users with alternate accounts may only vote once.

The Arbitration Committee is the panel of editors responsible for conducting the Wikipedia arbitration process. It has the authority to impose binding solutions to disputes between editors, primarily for serious conduct disputes the community has been unable to resolve. This includes the authority to impose site bans, topic bans, editing restrictions, and other measures needed to maintain our editing environment. The arbitration policy describes the Committee's roles and responsibilities in greater detail.

If you wish to participate in the 2017 election, please review the candidates and submit your choices on the voting page. MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 18:42, 3 December 2017 (UTC)

Additional help with MEMRI?

Hello, Ravpapa.

I'm representing the Middle East Media Research Institute on Wikipedia and need help making updates since I know I'm not supposed to edit the article myself.

I recall your constructive changes to the article in the past and therefore wanted to ask if you would be willing to take a look at a recent proposed edit that I've posted on the Talk page? The first thread links to new suggestions for the "Reception" section. There has not been any feedback yet, and I would like to get your input on whether the draft is an improvement over the current article.

Many thanks. R at MEMRI (talk) 17:49, 16 March 2018 (UTC)

ArbCom 2018 election voter message

Hello, Ravpapa. Voting in the 2018 Arbitration Committee elections is now open until 23.59 on Sunday, 3 December. All users who registered an account before Sunday, 28 October 2018, made at least 150 mainspace edits before Thursday, 1 November 2018 and are not currently blocked are eligible to vote. Users with alternate accounts may only vote once.

The Arbitration Committee is the panel of editors responsible for conducting the Wikipedia arbitration process. It has the authority to impose binding solutions to disputes between editors, primarily for serious conduct disputes the community has been unable to resolve. This includes the authority to impose site bans, topic bans, editing restrictions, and other measures needed to maintain our editing environment. The arbitration policy describes the Committee's roles and responsibilities in greater detail.

If you wish to participate in the 2018 election, please review the candidates and submit your choices on the voting page. MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 18:42, 19 November 2018 (UTC)

ArbCom 2019 election voter message

Hello! Voting in the 2019 Arbitration Committee elections is now open until 23:59 on Monday, 2 December 2019. All eligible users are allowed to vote. Users with alternate accounts may only vote once. The Arbitration Committee is the panel of editors responsible for conducting the Wikipedia arbitration process. It has the authority to impose binding solutions to disputes between editors, primarily for serious conduct disputes the community has been unable to resolve. This includes the authority to impose site bans, topic bans, editing restrictions, and other measures needed to maintain our editing environment. The arbitration policy describes the Committee's roles and responsibilities in greater detail. If you wish to participate in the 2019 election, please review the candidates and submit your choices on the voting page. If you no longer wish to receive these messages, you may add {{NoACEMM}} to your user talk page. MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 00:04, 19 November 2019 (UTC)

Commas in Grosse Fuge

Hi, thanks for your message. Actually I am a Commonwealther and thus believe that commas do sometimes belong outside quotation marks, but not in the situation here. I came here confidently expecting to say there was some kind of misunderstanding, as obviously Wikipedia would never advocate something so obviously and unambiguously incorrect, but I am staggered - staggered - to discover that you are absolutely right. Although I am all in favour of logical quotation, this is an application of it I have literally never seen applied in any publication, although I suppose it must be somewhere. Sadly this is all too common an experience with the MOS. Frickeg (talk) 21:25, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

ArbCom 2020 Elections voter message

Hello! Voting in the 2020 Arbitration Committee elections is now open until 23:59 (UTC) on Monday, 7 December 2020. All eligible users are allowed to vote. Users with alternate accounts may only vote once. The Arbitration Committee is the panel of editors responsible for conducting the Wikipedia arbitration process. It has the authority to impose binding solutions to disputes between editors, primarily for serious conduct disputes the community has been unable to resolve. This includes the authority to impose site bans, topic bans, editing restrictions, and other measures needed to maintain our editing environment. The arbitration policy describes the Committee's roles and responsibilities in greater detail. If you wish to participate in the 2020 election, please review the candidates and submit your choices on the voting page. If you no longer wish to receive these messages, you may add {{NoACEMM}} to your user talk page. MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 01:21, 24 November 2020 (UTC)

Help in uploading an article about Tuvya Ruebner - a leading Israeli poet

Hello Ravpapa, Can you help me? You may know who Tuvya Ruebenr was - an Israeli poet who received the Israel Prize of Poetry in 2008. He died in July 2019 aged 95. You can easily see that there are already Wikipedia articles about him in Hebrew and in German. However, in English there is only what someone called a "stub". I agree with that label, and the comment made - that a full article will help. I believe that many English speaking people - certainly within the Jewish community, will be interested in a full article.

I have now prepared such a full article. As is customary when writing about such persons - that article includes Biography, Literary career, Literary and other works, Awards and honours, Critical acclaim, external links and References. Now I need to upload that article unto the Wikipedia, which I am finding extremely demanding. Put frankly, I am at a life stage when it is not really viable for me to try and memorise all these terms and acronyms needed to do the uploading. Therefore, I am looking for someone who can take over and upload the whole article while I help in whatever way I can.

Please can you let me know whether you are able to offer such help. If not, do you know someone who can? I can offer some fees.

I am looking forward to hearing from you.

PS I was glad you are involved in chamber music. As it is, each year I write the concerts notes for the International Chamber Music Festival at Swanage, Dorset, UK - also as a volunteer. Merchav1 (talk) 18:17, 19 December 2020 (UTC)

Your submission at Articles for creation: Tuvia Ruebner (December 25)

Your recent article submission to Articles for Creation has been reviewed! Unfortunately, it has not been accepted at this time. The reason left by Pahunkat was: Please check the submission for any additional comments left by the reviewer. You are encouraged to edit the submission to address the issues raised and resubmit when they have been resolved.

• If you would like to continue working on the submission, go to Draft:Tuvia Ruebner and click on the "Edit" tab at the top of the window.
• If you now believe the draft cannot meet Wikipedia's standards or do not wish to progress it further, you may request deletion. Please go to Draft:Tuvia Ruebner, click on the "Edit" tab at the top of the window, add "{{Db-g7}}" at the top of the draft text and click the blue "publish changes" button to save this edit.
• If you do not make any further changes to your draft, in 6 months, it will be considered abandoned and may be deleted.
• If you need any assistance, or have experienced any untoward behavior associated with this submission, you can ask for help at the Articles for creation help desk, on the reviewer's talk page or use Wikipedia's real-time chat help from experienced editors.

Pahunkat (talk) 15:34, 25 December 2020 (UTC)

Hello, Ravpapa! Having an article declined at Articles for Creation can be disappointing. If you are wondering why your article submission was declined, please post a question at the Articles for creation help desk. If you have any other questions about your editing experience, we'd love to help you at the Teahouse, a friendly space on Wikipedia where experienced editors lend a hand to help new editors like yourself! See you there! Pahunkat (talk) 15:34, 25 December 2020 (UTC)

Impersonation - help request

Dear Ravpapa,

I have not used this site as a member before, so please forgive any mistakes I may make. I have recently been alerted to the fact that an acquaintance of mine has used my real name (Max Ruisi) to setup one of a number of memberships and edit the page on Haydn's Op.20 quartets. I think this may have been intended as a joke, but as a professional musician, I am not happy about having my real name attributed to remarks that I didn't make. I wondered therefore whether you might be so kind as to remove any mention of the username 'Max Ruisi' in your comments on the talk page in question? I would be very grateful. I will also be asking wikipedia to close down the account. Many thanks in advance. Cello 12 (talk) 21:14, 24 February 2021 (UTC)

ArbCom 2021 Elections voter message

Hello! Voting in the 2021 Arbitration Committee elections is now open until 23:59 (UTC) on Monday, 6 December 2021. All eligible users are allowed to vote. Users with alternate accounts may only vote once. The Arbitration Committee is the panel of editors responsible for conducting the Wikipedia arbitration process. It has the authority to impose binding solutions to disputes between editors, primarily for serious conduct disputes the community has been unable to resolve. This includes the authority to impose site bans, topic bans, editing restrictions, and other measures needed to maintain our editing environment. The arbitration policy describes the Committee's roles and responsibilities in greater detail. If you wish to participate in the 2021 election, please review the candidates and submit your choices on the voting page. If you no longer wish to receive these messages, you may add {{NoACEMM}} to your user talk page. MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 00:07, 23 November 2021 (UTC)