Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2008 September 19

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September 19

Michigan History Magazine 8, no. 29 October 1924

Does anyone have access to Michigan History Magazine 8, no. 29 October 1924? I'm wanting to track down page 476 to get clarification of the domain in which sales of Ben King's verses exceeded any other single volumes of poetry for 25 years. As you do once you've been on wikipedia long enough. See talk --Tagishsimon (talk) 00:09, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

There are at least a half a dozen libraries within a 10 minute drive from where I live that have this issue. However, I'm lazy and cheap, and instead of hoofing it myself, I would suggest why don't you go to your own local library and request the page in question through their InterLibrary Loan service? It's free or very cheap, and they'll get the information for you. The other solution is to call a library that owns the issue and ask for their Serials or Reference Desk. Call early in the morning just after they open when they'll be less likely to be too busy to go out of their way for you. Ask if it is possible that the librarian could locate the information and tell you over the telephone. If you want to know which libraries own this, go to WorldCat and search for "Michigan History Magazine", and then after selecting the right record, click on the button that says "Libraries worldwide that own item", and you'll get a list of the libraries that own it. Saukkomies 01:14, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

Umm, yes, thanks. Good try. Appears there are 2 copies available in the UK, both in university libraries. IIRC, these will not interloan to public libraries. Perhaps you made the assumption that I was anywhere near Michigan? I'm neither lazy nor cheap, but am working on the assumption that someone on Humanities might well have very easy access. --Tagishsimon (talk) 01:23, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, I hate it when I act like a typical dumb Yank and assume everyone on the Internet lives in the US. I apologize for the oversight. However, you still have the option of calling a library that has a copy of this issue you're looking for, and asking whether the Reference Librarian could pretty-please go grab it off the shelf and take a look at the page in question and tell you what's on it. Actually, and to clarify things, I am an information professional, and would, for hire, hoof it over to the local library, copy, and fax the page in question to you. I charge $75 per hour for such services, plus costs of photocopying and faxing. To do this for free would be equivalent for you asking a barber to give you a free haircut in his home... I hope you understand... However, I did for free tell you how to obtain the information through a Reference Desk. Just keep in mind that many libraries have a policy against having their Reference staff doing precisely this sort of thing, especially for people who live outside their jurisdiction. However, as I pointed out, if you call during a not-so-busy time, and if you're nice about asking, the librarian may go out of his or her way to help you in this matter. Your other choice would be (of course) to hire an information professional to do this for you. Unless you can get someone here in the Humanities Desk to help, or to find it full-text online, but of course that would be the lazy and cheap way to do it... Saukkomies 14:52, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

The name of the author and the title of the article would help me locate it through JSTOR, if it's available that way.--Wetman (talk) 12:02, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

Thanks. Walter E. Banyan, "Ben King Memorial", Michigan History Magazine 8, no. 29 October 1924. --Tagishsimon (talk) 12:14, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

It's not in JSTOR. It should be in Google Books however per usual the "snippet view" is pretty much useless (I have yet to really understand what the point of this aspect of Google Books is). My university's copy is not available at the moment, otherwise I'd check it out for you. --98.217.8.46 (talk) 13:56, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

It's not in Google books as far as I can see. DuncanHill (talk) 19:23, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

Sure it is (twice), but you have to play with the advanced search to get it, for some reason. But in any case, there isn't anything to see other than the citation info and useless snippets. --98.217.8.46 (talk) 20:58, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for all the input to date. Keep searching, Humanities team. --Tagishsimon (talk) 16:16, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

You sure you can't get an interlibrary loan to your closest university/university college/school library? Of course, that might still be some place away from where you live, but it could be worth a try. Jørgen (talk) 17:29, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

He already said he was in the UK, where there are not many copies of it anyway, and he seemed to imply he was not a university. And I have never known a university to do interlibrary loan (in the US, anyway) for someone who was not a member of the university (it does cost money for the university, after all). --98.217.8.46 (talk) 20:59, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

Yes, and he's already been told what he'll probably have to do to get the information. However, I think he's hoping someone here will do the work for him so he doesn't have to do it himself. Saukkomies 10:30, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

I think he's hoping that someone here would combine 1) ready access to the text in question with 2) a helpful attitude. DuncanHill (talk) 22:38, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

I have fairly ready access to the information, and was as helpful as I desire to be, but I ain't about to be doing something in a professional capacity without remuneration for it. So, I hope that your comment about having a helpful attitude is not a jibe. Saukkomies 10:49, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

Not meant as a jibe - by ready access I meant "not having to go out of their way for". Sorry for any, entirely unintended, slight to you. DuncanHill (talk) 00:16, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for coddling my ego, DuncanHill. I have a built-in resentment about how information professionals tend to be dismissed as being glorified clerks, which if you think about it, can also be said of most lawyers, too. However, if I did get this material for free I could write it off as "pro bono" work. Heh. We'll see... Saukkomies 13:15, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

Information professionals do far more good for society at large than lawyers ever did, and for much more reasonable rates! DuncanHill (talk) 18:41, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

Even if they are glorified clerks ;-) --98.217.8.46 (talk) 21:55, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

For what it's worth, I'll just say that here in Toronto, Canada, I have borrowed items from university libraries via interloan to my local public library. Typically there is a fee of $10 or so, and sometimes the university library insists on a "reference loan", which means I am not allowed to remove the item from the public library, but other times they don't. --Anonymous, 23:47 UTC, September 19, 2008.

I have worked for over 16 years as a professional librarian, and a goodly part of that time directly with InterLibrary Loans. So, with that said, I can say that the entire business of InterLibrary Loaning is very complex. Different libraries have different policies regarding what material they will loan out to other libraries, and how they'll do it, what material they will try to obtain for patrons, and what kind of agreements they might have with other libraries to do the InterLibrary Loan transactions. I am sure that Toronto's public library system is par excellent in regards to its InterLibrary Loan services - indeed, Toronto Public Library has an excellent reputation among libraries, even down here in the US. I am sure that if it is at all possible to obtain anything through InterLibrary Loan, that the librarians at Toronto Public Library would move heaven and earth to obtain the item. However, such is not the case universally. Every library is a little different in this regards. Some libraries get a bad reputation for borrowing material through InterLibrary Loan from other libraries and then never returning the material (usually due to their patrons just never returning the stuff). When this happens other libraries will be very reluctant to loan out items to these "bad reputation" libraries in the future. InterLibrary Loan offices are very often understaffed, too, and have a difficult time keeping up with the basic day-to-day requests for normal type materials. Having special requests places huge burdens on their time and patience. And the same goes with librarians staffing Reference Desks. However, librarians and library staff are typically very dedicated, and are willing to put in the extra effort to try to do everything that they can within reason to help patrons with their information needs. It's just that sometimes it is - believe it or not - basically impossible to obtain certain things through InterLibrary Loan, for one reason or another. It happens all the time. And if there are only two libraries - both Universities - in England that own this publication, it very well might be that those libraries will not loan or even photocopy the issue at question here. I totally trust Tagishsimon's memory that these materials will be unobtainable through InterLibrary Loan. Saukkomies 12:09, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

I notice that the Newberry Library in Chicago apparently has the magazine. They will take photocopy requests by email and mail the results to you once you send them payment. [1] It looks like most copies are inexpensive. Unfortunately, it will cost you at least $7 to have the copy mailed to the U.K. Crypticfirefly (talk) 01:31, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

Just as an aside, my reference librarian gave me a wonderful tip, when asked on the ILL form "maximum copy charge" say zero. Got the original and not a bad xerox. Saintrain (talk) 05:21, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

This is good advice, Saintrain. "Typically" libraries charge for photocopying only when it becomes absurdly expensive for them. By writing down "zero" where it asks how much you'd be willing to spend on photocopying charges, you're not necessarily telling them you don't want the article if it costs too much, but you're telling them that if it becomes too expensive for them, to tell you about it. You can always later come back and say to go ahead and order the ILL material and pay the photocopying fees. It isn't always up to the library you're working through as to how much these photocopying charges will be - the loaning library might have very different policies regarding how much to charge for photocopying, which is out of the realm of control of the library you're requesting the material through. Same goes with how long material will be allowed to be loaned, etc. The loaning library can dictate the terms, and the borrowing library pretty much has to go along with them, regardless of what their own policies allow. Saukkomies 13:11, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

But seriously, Saukkomies, asking if someone on here would get some info from their library to aid Wikipedia is not unusual and not out of line. If you don't want to do it, then don't. That's fine. I'd be happy to do it but as I said my university's copy of that issue is not available (it's in some sort of Google-Books-related scanning limbo). I and others have often used our resources to aid those for the purpose of the Wiki, and even to just assist with individuals. Sure, we're using valuable skills (I do get paid regularly to do research professionally), but we can stop whenever we want. And I don't think anyone confuses us with clerks—most of the people I have assisted are very grateful, and most are just dazzled by the fact that someone who knows how to do a little research can easily marshall together vast amounts of data pretty quickly, just because they know where it is. So don't get uptight when people ask for assistance on here—that's one of the many services we provide!! --98.217.8.46 (talk) 21:59, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

There's a difference between asking for someone to help Wikipedia and helping themselves in research that they are working on as part of their job or personal interest... I think the issue is not whether you can "easily" come up with the answer, but that when coming up with the information requires expenditures of personal resources that cost money and more than just a small amount of time, then the issue of cost-benefit analysis enters into the equation. Saukkomies 13:55, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

Tagishsimon's original request was, as I understand it, to tidy a reference cite on a WP article, and thus entirely appropriate. Not that I have a problem with people asking at the ref desks for their own interest/projects. We each can choose whether we wish to invest time in a reply. I have at times gone out of my way to find information for ref deskers, if something has captured my interest. Other questions I pass over. I don't think we need to apologise for that, or explain our reasons, anymore than we need to justify which WP articles we choose to work on. Gwinva (talk) 23:56, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, I missed that part about Tagishsimon working on a Wiki page... Indeed, I also want to apologize to Tagishsimon for overreacting so imbecilically over this issue. Apparently I had some juice about information professionals being taken advantage of that was just waiting to be released at the first opportunity. Sorry you were the target of that uncalled-for rant. Saukkomies 23:48, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

That's quite okay, Saukkomies; I have enjoyed both the light & the heat. And yes, I confirm that the whole request is solely in order to illuminate the most obscure wikipedia fact: did Ben King's verses outsell all other single volume poetry books in the 25 years after his death, and if so is the market in which this phenomenon occurred defined? One or more nations hang with bated breath upon the answer... --Tagishsimon (talk) 07:21, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

Gender, race and class in the Cthulhu Mythos

Hi there, members of WP:RD/H, my boyfriend is in English Lit. and has been given an assignment to do a reading of any book he wants with a strong reading of class, race or gender. A friend suggested the Hitchhiker's Guide, but he is really rapt with the idea of doing a reading from the Cthulhu Mythos and so I was wondering what books there might be which we can use for this. Thanks in advance. Avnas Ishtaroth _{drop me a line} 01:10, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

I don't know the Mythos at all but I would caution that in an assignment like this, proper choice of text is absolutely necessary. Trying to do this kind of analysis on a text which doesn't have a lot going on in those particular areas is either an exercise in futility or bullshit. ;-) There is a lot of other turn-of-the-century "horror" literature that would work better for this sort of thing (e.g. Dracula, Sherlock Holmes, etc.). --98.217.8.46 (talk) 13:53, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

I read probably almost all of the Lovecraft stories, and a fair proportion of the Derleth ones, in my youth, but can't remember which ones would be most suitable for your purpose (though I can remember some, such as "Color out of Space", which would not be particularly useful). Why not try Clark Ashton Smith? He has a lot of fun-to-read short stories which would probably be of interest to your project (only a few of them set in the Cthulhu mythos, however). AnonMoos (talk) 16:13, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

Robert E. Howard (creator of Conan) was also in Lovecraft's circle & wrote some stories in the Cthulhu mythos.Crypticfirefly (talk) 01:42, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

HP Lovecraft's work actually has a lot of references to the above issues, particularly race but also class and to a lesser extent gender, simply by the absence of him ever writing about female protagonists. The Horror at Red Hook, The Shadow Over Innsmouth, and He would all be good choices. Not all of those are specifically from the mythos, but lots of what he wrote has racial/class prejudices in it, if your boyfriend is intent on choosing something from the mythos. Hope this helps.69.244.5.221 (talk) 03:53, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

I note the "or" in the class assignment. If you want to look at how class anxieties can be extrapolated via the eugenics debate to racial fears as well, I would suggest H. G. Wells's depiction of the untermenschen Morlocks in The Time Machine (1895). BrainyBabe (talk) 13:57, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

Grade level for Twilight Book Series

I am interested in finding out the appropriate grade level for the book series Twilight. Might anyone please be able to help me? Thank you, Brett Bstephens0726 (talk) 04:29, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

Hi. They seem to be targeted at junior high schoolers and high schoolers. If it helps, I found this description in a Chicago Tribune article: "Yes, the ingredients seem ripe for steaminess a la 'Gossip Girl' -- Bella, the central character, a typical high school prom-going girl; Edward, the gorgeous hunk who turns out to be a vampire; and Bella's close friend, Jacob, a strikingly handsome werewolf in cutoffs. But Meyer, 35, is a devout Mormon. So there's no smoking and no drinking in the books. And no sex either." (Patrick T. Reardon. "'Twilight' series successfully walks fine line". July 31, 2008. 1.) Zagalejo^^^ 04:55, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

Well, there is plenty of implied sex, but only after they have the requisite teenage wedding. Man, only a Mormon could come up with the concept of abstinent vampires! Adam Bishop (talk) 11:00, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

Barack Obama terrorist links?

Hello Wikipedia, i read on a blog (i now can't remember which one -it might even have been a post on YouTube) which said that Obama had 'questionable' links with terrorist organisations.. Is this just racist BS because his middle name is Hussein or is there some grain of truth? Where did the 'story' come from?217.169.40.194 (talk) 08:53, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

Insofar as there's anything to it at all, see Bill Ayers... AnonMoos (talk) 09:00, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

Obama–Ayers controversy has more details. DAVID ŠENEK 12:35, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

And it's pretty much bullshit—guilt by association nonsense. --98.217.8.46 (talk) 13:46, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

CliffsNotes

What is the legal relationship between the condensed books CliffsNotes produces and the original works? Does CliffsNotes have to pay fees to publishers of original works for the rights to produce summaries, or are CliffsNotes publications treated as original works which do not require fees to be payed to other publishers? I understand that many works covered by CliffsNotes are in the public domain, but certainly not all. --Shaggorama (talk) 09:08, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

I wouldn't call CliffsNotes "condensed books." They summarize plots, highlight themes, and provide other kids of analysis. As you say, for works in the public domain, they can write whatever they want. I imagine that John Wiley & Sons relies on fair use protection. Although CliffsNotes are clearly commercial (you have to buy the notes), they're also educational -- I doubt that 5% of their sales are to people other than students. Also, their effect on the potential market of the copyrighted work is probably low -- the kind of student who uses only CliffsNotes and doesn't buy a copy of the work wouldn't have bought the work anyway. So the CliffsNotes defense is most likely "it's criticism and scholarly work." --- OtherDave (talk)

And since they are designed to help kids avoid reading their homework, the works they concentrate on are those that are assigned in high school and college, which are quite often in the public domain anyway. - Nunh-huh 22:09, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

Former Yugoslavia: Agreement on succession issues and PD

Hi, what is the relationship between public domain and the Agreement on succession issues cited at {{PD-Yugoslavia}}. Is this template valid, i.e. does the agreement really put some works into public domain? If it does, which ones? --Eleassar ^{my talk} 12:29, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

I am not a lawyer; this is not a legal opinion; your mileage may vary. The text does not seem to put any works in the public domain, though I am not a lawyer and I do know know anything about copyright in the republics that formerly made up Yugoslavia.

THAT SAID, this wording seems clear:

All rights and interests which belonged to the Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia and which are not otherwise covered by this Agreement (including, but not limited to, patents, trade marks, copyrights, royalties, and claims of and debts due to the SFRY) shall be shared among the successor States...

Which I read as saying "unless they're covered elsewhere, rights formerly held by Yugoslavia will be be shared among us new countries as follows..."

You can't share public domain, at least in the U.S. The Sonny Bono law has prevented any works from automatically entering the public domain for several years; the only way they get there is for the holder of the copyright to release it. It's like pregnancy: a work is in the public domain, without reservation, or it's not. --- OtherDave (talk) 01:30, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

William Donaldson

William Donaldson makes very entertaining reading but I am not sure how much of it to believe. There are no sources and much of the article seems to be lifted directly from the linked Guardian obituary. I suspect that not every word of it is true, which may all be part of some in-joke since this guy was a media insider and satirist. Any ideas on how the article might be improved? --Richardrj ^{talk email} 14:23, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

I've added a link to the Indie obit too. He seems to be the sort of charming rascal we produce far too few of nowadays. DuncanHill (talk) 14:31, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

Knowing quite a lot about Beyond the Fringe, one thing I would like to point out is that the cast were on a fixed fee plus a percentage of takings, and they initially made about £114 a week each. It was still a lousy deal (and on a per-performance basis it was less than they got for the original Edinburgh show), but not quite as bad as the article suggests. (Also, Donaldson produced the show in 1961, not 1960. The producer in 1960 was Johnny Bassett.) --89.168.154.234 (talk) 13:19, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

Atomic Energy Act of 1954

What's up with this? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Haptic (talk • contribs) 21:11, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

Could you be more specific, please? Your link neatly sums up one provision of the Act, "No patent shall hereafter be granted for any invention or discovery which is useful solely in the utilization of special nuclear material or atomic energy in an atomic weapon." In a nutshell, you can't patent atomic technology in the US. Surely sensible? No doubt there's more to the Act than that. Strawless (talk) 22:17, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

but why not? can't you patent bombs and guns and things? you can patent living organisms but not this? seems odd —Preceding unsigned comment added by Haptic (talk • contribs) 23:34, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

There are many things you cannot patent. The list of things you cannot patent continues to grow. Hopefully web design and computer programs will be added to the list soon. As for why... consider why there is such a thing as a patent. The patent protects the inventor's investment by ensuring that there will be no competition at first. Without the patent process, inventors may choose not to invest in a new invention because the profit will be made by someone able to compete in the market better as soon as the invention hits the market. Medications are a good example. It takes millions of dollars to come up with a new medication. Why invest that money if as soon as you are capable of making a pill for a dollar, someone else with a larger factory in a cheaper country makes it for a quarter and steals all the profits? So, understanding the why of patents... Why would the government want to protect someone's profits for nuclear or atomic bombs? -- kainaw™ 03:34, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

I think it is more to do with the government wanting to ensure that they can use atomic weapons technology without any pesky "inventor with a conscience" getting in the way by exerting his patent rights. DuncanHill (talk) 13:21, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

Mysterious stone object

Photo of object

While cataloging the Macartney Collection at Geneva College under the direction of the head librarian, I came upon the object pictured to the side. My supervisor (who has given permission to post this question and photo here) tells me that he's never seen it, and the archivist who placed it in this box tells me that she has no special remembrance of it. It suggests somewhat of a stylized compass rose (a major point at top, right, bottom, and left, with three smaller points between each of the four major points, totalling sixteen in all), with a face in the middle — the closest thing to which I can compare it is the "Sun of May" on the flags of Uruguay and Argentina! The object (diameter about 7 inches/18.5 cm) has a hook attached near the top, apparently placed to allow it to be hung on a wall. One of the librarians to whom I showed it thinks it to be some sort of plastic, although it feels more like stone to me: quite heavy, denser than any plastic that I can remember holding. While it's gray and black on the front (by the way, the light spot in the middle is really black; it's light due to reflection from the flash used in taking the picture), the back is almost entirely black, similar in smoothness and in color to the smooth black areas (including the reflective middle area) on the front. Gray areas on the front, on the other hand, are rough. Some small damage on the back and side (not visible in this photo) reveal the object under the mostly-black surface to be tan or brown, similar to the small damaged areas on the right and bottom right visible in this picture. Yet another librarian, who has examined these areas, notes that they exhibit a thin sheet-like structure like that of slate. Macartney I know was an amateur historian of the American Civil War (aside from this object, the only contents of the box were various portraits of Abraham Lincoln), but I can't imagine what this would have to do with the Civil War or anything else that we've found in the collection. Any ideas on what it could be, or its origins? I can provide more specific details if necessary. Nyttend (talk) 21:23, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

isn't it an Aztec calendar? - Nunh-huh 21:51, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

It's an Aztec calendar image, yes. You'd have to get an expert to know if its actually an artifact of any value or if it is just some trinket someone got on their visit to Mexico. There's a lot of that kind of stuff made there for the tourist crowd. --98.217.8.46 (talk) 21:57, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

And from your description (sort of like plastic, but not, and heavier) it sounds rather like it might be cast stone, which would make "trinket" more likely. But it has to be seen in person by someone who would know. - Nunh-huh 22:06, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

I would be willing to bet money that it's a small-scale replica of the famous (and very large and very heavy) sun-disk or Aztec calendar stone found in 1790 under the central plaza in Mexico city (which is a unique artefact and now a national symbol of Mexico, and so would be well deserving of an article to itself). For the connection between Mexican history and the mid-19th-century United States, see William H. Prescott.. AnonMoos (talk) 01:55, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

Luckily...Matt Deres (talk) 14:55, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

There was no actual link from article Aztec calendar to article Aztec calendar stone until I added one just now... AnonMoos (talk) 00:18, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

Entrance to the Public Park in Arles

Is van gogh's painting "Entrance to the Public Park in Arles" on public display anywhere; and if so, where? thank you. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.16.148.143 (talk) 21:33, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

It is in The Phillips Collection in Washington D. C. in the United States of America. See [2]. DuncanHill (talk) 22:11, 19 September 2008 (UTC)