Talk:Winter Palace

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I am very conscious writing this page that it is a very important subject to all those who lived and live in the former Russian Empire. I have been around Wikipedia long enough to know that those editors all have differing views on various events in Russian history. I have left off writing this page for that reason for a long time, in the hope one of the (here is the first problem - I was educated like many in the west to label them all "Russians" no matter where they come from) former citizens of the USSR would write it.

What I'm trying to say, very badly, is that the Winter Palace, architecturally, is very repetitive in its design, you can see that by looking at it - it is huge but there is not a lot one can say about it beyond a few hundred words. Thus, there is not enough to make this into the page it deserves to be, without it also being a political history - the treasures should all be covered at the Hermitage page - I sounded out views on a merge and it was not wanted [1]- so without immense details of the contents - we are left only with events and people, which is no problem if they are documented correctly. I've taken this into user space, so that if I make a huge mistake, one of you can pop up on the talk page and say "Giano, you are a daft bastard - what are you saying there?" also you may have ideas, knowledge of legends, stories, which I, and the rest of us in the west have never heard about, and hopefully lots of fotos - what I'm saying is, I don't want to tread on any toes, and if I make a mistake it is ignorance not an intent to offend, and this may happen because political events have to pertain directly to the palace, so it's always going to be a sketchy view, and I learnt my history from an American point of view - which may not co-incide with yours. Do you see what I'm trying to say? Basically. I need some help here! - to keep this page completely NPOV. For example: I always thought it was the sick son that caused the Empress to withdraw, from just researching this I see she had spurned St Pete's before even her first daughter was born. You're the guys with the knowledge. I'm not sure as a page if it will work, but there is only one way to find out - You can swear at me, and put me right, but let's not let this get into mainspace with any huge mistakes or POV that will be fought over later. Opinions please. Giano (talk) 19:54, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Notes for the page

• Image:Télipalota.jpg The image shows the palace after the attempte assasination of Alexander II by Stephan Khalturin.

[2] This site contains a lot of information at odds with the reference books, I'm using. (a) Nicholas II and family spent a lot of time at the WP, the ref books say they did not. (b) The creation of the wall, and the gardens within, the site says it was Alexandra keeping people back, the ref books say the wall and gardens were built in the 1880s - long before Alexandra arrived on the scene - any body know the truth?

Identify a room a win a prize!

The piano nobile of the Winter Palace: 3=White Drawing room of Alexandra Feodorvna 4 = Malachite Room; 5=Concert-Hall; 6-Nicholas Hall; 7=Avant-salle;8 = Jordan Staircase,watercolor;9-Field-Marshal Hall; 10 = Small Throne Room; 11 = Amorial Hall; 12 = Military Gallery; 13 = St. George's hall; 14 = The Small Hermitage; 15 = New Hermitage; 16 = The Grand Church; 17 = Alexander Hall; 20-White Hall; 21=Golden Drawing Room;22-Crimson cabinet; 23 = Boudoir of Empress Maria Alexandrovna; 24=Classroom; 25=Study-Bedroom; 26 = The Rotonda;28=Great (Arab) Dining Room; 31 = River Neva; 32 = Courtyard garden; 33 = Palace square; 34 = Staff of the CCorpus of Guards (currently Staff of Leningrad Military District; 35 = West Garden; 36=His Majesty Own Staircase, Now October Staircase; 37-Apollo Hall; 39 = Principal Entrance; 40? = Winter Garden; 41=Dark Corridor; 42? Dressing Room of Alexandra Feodorovna; 43=Pompei (Small) Dinner Room. Please only link to non-copyright Wikipedia images. No external links. Thanks Giano (talk) 09:53, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Help is needed Identifying rooms of the palace - all help welcome! Feel free to add any room you know! When it's completed this will be a "clicky map" hopefully leading to as many pictures of rooms as possible!

We especially need to locate because commons has images. (these are my identification so they may be wrong):

• The Amorial Hall (says here [3] it's next to S Throne Room) so could be 12. (damn we have two 12s)

• This room, possibly the private dining room
• foot of the Jordan staicase?? or a chapel?
• Image:CornersalonWinterpalace.jpg think this is room number 1, The private corner drawing room, it's on a corner, its the only unspoken corner in the private apartments and all windows and doors are in correct places - what do you think Alex. Giano (talk) 13:15, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

  It is certainly this corner of the building - we can see Neva and Admiralty but according to the [4] the Nicholas I suite was on the second floor. Thus, it should be just above our 1.

Alex, I'm concerned about the identifiation of the 3, the Aleaxandra's drawing room, it shows it with a bay window, there are no bay windows facing the Neva. Giano (talk) 07:33, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

I am concerned too. [5] says that the most elegant were the apartments of Alexandra Feodorovna (Charlotte of Prussia) on the first floor faced to Neva and Admiralty. Only the Malachite Room (our 4) survived. За Малахитовой гостиной открывался ряд личных покоев Александры Федоровны: Столовая, расписанная по мотивам фресок, раскопанных в Помпеях, в Италии, изящные Гостиные, Спальня, уютный Будуар, романтический Зимний Садик с журчащим фонтаном и экзотическими растениями, изысканная и роскошная Ванная комната, оформленная в мавританском стиле, словно напоенная пряными ароматами Востока. Behind the Malachite room there was a row of the priviate rooms for Alexandra Feodorovna: Pompei Dining room (This is a small room left to 28, it is notable as the place of arrest of the Temporal Government), The elegant Drawing Rooms, Bedroom, Cosy Boudoir, romantic Winter Garden and the elegant and extensive Bathroom in Mauritian style. I have assumed that maybe, just maybe the author named them in order starting from Malachite Room. I guess I was wrong. Then I feel this is the limit of googling we have to ask somebody who knows Alex Bakharev (talk) 08:51, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Then if it's the floor above that is no problem we just say (floor above) Pompei Dining room, means neoclassical, so could well be our bombed room, as that is neoclasical and it was a dining room that was bombed. I bet Ghirlandajo knows, or can find out. The second floor is no problem, if you look at the photographs from the quai, there is a sunken ground floor, then the 1st floor, then the piano nobile (the floor we have illustrated) The bay window is a bigger problem, the Winter Palace just would not have bay windows, they would be all wrong on any of it's facades, looking at the view throught he window, I wonder if the window illustrated was trompe l'oeil? Giano (talk) 11:51, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Combining [6] and [7] it looks like the place is 42 on our plan (63. Exhibition: "The Decoration of the Russian Interior in the 19th Century: The Boudoir of the 1840s-1850s") on theirs. 3 is White Drawing Room in the North-West Risolites. No idea what 1 and 2 on the first floor are (some rooms of the Alex Feodor suite I guess. Maybe indicate 1 as Nicholas's Private Drawing Room and say it is the next floor Alex Bakharev (talk) 13:01, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Well done, have we solved the mystery of the bay window? I am pretty sure that the room immediatly north of 24 is the Imperial study, sorry I have been distracted I am reading the life of Alexander II, and became interested in some facts off subject - I am also reading a "Av lifelong passion" which tells refers to various rooms and meetings etc. I think by the 20th century the Arab dining Room had become a audience room. Giano (talk) 13:10, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Let me translate the plan [8] :

1. Иорданская галерея /первый этаж/ Jordan Gallery (ground floor) [9]

2. Парадная (Иорданская) лестница Jordan Staircase [10]

3. Фельдмаршальский зал Field Marshal Hall [11]

4. Петровский (Малый тронный) зал Peter (Small throne) Hall [12]

5. Георгиевский (Большой тронный) зал St. George (Large throne) Hall [13] eng

6. Военная галерея 1812 года Military Gallery [14] eng

7. Гербовый зал Armorial Hall [15] eng

8. Большая церковь The Grand Church [16] eng

9. Александровский зал Alexander Hall [17] [18]

10. Залы военных картин Hall of Military Painting [19] [20]

11. Большая гостиная Large Drawing Room [21] eng

12. Белый зал White Hall [22] [23]

13. Октябрьская лестница October Stair Case [24] [25]

14. Золотая гостиная Golden Drawing Room [26] eng

15. Малиновый кабинет Crimson Cabinet [27]

16. Будуар Boudoir [28] eng

17. Учебная комната Study [29] eng

18. Спальня Bedroom [30] eng

19. Ротонда Rotunda [31]

20. Библиотека Николая II Library of Nicholas II [32] eng

21. Малая (Белая) столовая Small (white) dining room [33] [34]

22. Малахитовая гостиная Malachite Room [35] eng

23. Большая Арапская столовая Large Arab dining room [36]

24. Концертный зал Concert Hall [37] eng

25. Портретная галерея дома Романовых portrait Gallery of Romanovs [38]

26. Большой (Николаевский) зал Large (Nicholas) Hall [39] eng

27. Аванзал Avant-Salle [40]

Another useful map with English references is [41] it includes Hermitage

Thanks Alex, that's brilliant, the plan is already very amended, I will make the next changes. Best to stick with the old plan, then there will be no copyright problems.Can also upoad the original for contrast to show changes over the centuries. Giano (talk) 10:43, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Hunting through Flickr

I have absolutely no idea how to upload photos from Flickr, but I've been hunting through there to see if there are useful interior images that already have appropriate copyright status. I'll stick links to anything I dig up here, with notations on the copyright statements.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/maggiew/2127226614/ - Creative commons/Attribution. Nice shot of (I think) the private park entrance.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/ndalls/525007825/ - old photos, CC-by-SA. This link might be useful for a lot of places, from the look of it.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/metalchris/1422659096/in/set-72157602102560785/ - CC-SA but noncommercial, some good shots, maybe worth twisting an arm.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/tims/485497547/in/photostream/ - All rights reserved, but again some good interior shots the photog might be persuaded to switch to CC-by-SA for.

I'll keep my eyes open for anything else. Risker (talk) 20:54, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, the throne one we already have (it was never Pete the Great's - he was dead long before it was built), I'm not sure if we can upload the others - the courtyard one, would be good because I'm currently ading a landscape plan, exactly from where that was taken, to the already uploaded plan, and working on a sub page for the palace gardens which can redirect, there are not many gardens, so it will only be a couple of hundred words and a couple of 19th century plans I have, thanks Risker - this has the makings of a half decent page. Giano (talk) 00:34, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Garden photo uploaded here: Image:Winter_Palace_Garden_Entrance.jpg. Another new talent for me. Let me know if you are interested in any of those old photos for this or any other project you're working on, they have to go directly to Commons, but it was a very straightforward upload. Risker (talk) 23:43, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Ref as requested

<ref name="massie">''Peter the Great: His Life and World'' (Knopf, 1980) by Robert K. Massie, ISBN 0-394-50032-6</ref> Taken from the St. Petersburg article, I assume it is valid. You can copy and paste it in. Doesn't have a page number, though; I'll see if I can get one. Risker (talk) 20:30, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Better reference: Teeple, John B., Timelines of World History (DK Publishing, New York, Revised 2006); page 319. ISBN 0-7566-1703-0.

--Risker (talk) 22:37, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

"the green-and-white palace"

It has not always been green-and-white. Colchicum (talk) 10:33, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

It has been green-and-white since 1946 only. Colchicum (talk) 10:46, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

The age is far from finished. It will al be in there eventually, it was red from 1837 to 1917 and has changed many times. Giano (talk) 11:40, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

Expansion

This page is far from finished, and much planned information is still not detailed here, but any comments on the talk page are welcome. Because it is a mammoth subject, it is going to have to have various sub-pages, all of which can be united under Category: The Hermitage. I think the Winter Palace page itself will end just after the Revolution, when it became part of the Hermitage Museum, as the Hermitage page can pick up after that. Then, the individual room pages can then detail not only their history, but also their contents etc., as they are seen under The Hermitage name today.

The other question I have, is for the sake of consistency on the page, I suggest using only "Tsar and Tsaritsa" or "Emperor and Empress" (I know different rulers liked different titles) but, I think, that would make the page too confusing - any thoughts on that?. please post on talk page anybthoughts. thanks. Giano (talk) 21:28, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

The article looks excellent already in my opinion and I like your proposal for creating subpages for the important individual rooms. I have a book called "Hermitage: A Biography of a Famous Museum" or something like that. I haven't read it in years, and don't know where it is exactly, but I remember thinking at the time that it was pretty good, and I could try to dig it out if you think that might help? I also have the Robert Massie book mentioned a few sections above, if you need someone to look up page numbers in that.

As for Emperor-Empress/Tsar-Tsaritsa(ina) I tend to think Emperor-Empress is preferable for this period of history. St. Petersburg was always intended to be a European capital, and the Winter Palace was very much a creature of Imperial Russia. (Although I don't feel strongly about this, and if your preference is toward tsar, I don't see this as a concern.) --JayHenry (talk) 04:20, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Thanks - I'm pleased too, the main Winter palace page is coming on quite nicely, two more big sections, some polishing and heaving cutting and editing and I thik it will be almost there.

I hope a Russian history expert is looking over my shoulder, as it is all research rather than studd I already knew, and some sources do contradict each other. All the books mentioned I actually have here on the desk beside me, including the Massie. I am going to have to be careful not to get too much on Nicholas and Alexandra, and make the page bottom heavy. I actually prefer Tsar and Tsaritsa - but I'm not that bothered so will go with opinion on the subject. I like the idea too of the room pages, as it means they can be of benefit to the State Hermitage Museum page too, don't be put off by the "user page" part please just dump any infomation and facts you have directly on the pages, and I can sort it out later, or even adopt a room if you like, I think we have images for most of them now, some of those water colours are better than the modern fotos. I'll probably keep it all in user-space untill the whole project is finished and the category created - so they can all stand together. Giano (talk) 06:27, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

This sounds like fun! I will dig up this old Hermitage book and as long as it's as good as I remember, dive in. I can look over the history, not at a professorial level, but certainly as someone who's studied it. It's not right, for example, that Peter II moved the capital from Moscow to Peter in 1728. Peter I made it the de facto capital in 1712 or so, but it was Anna who officially moved it in 1732. If you're interested, there's a wonderful and generally considered authoritative history of Russian Culture called The Icon and the Axe by James H. Billington. I have a copy and will plan to see if any of it's relevant. I'll see if I can't find my Hermitage book over the weekend as well. --JayHenry (talk) 00:07, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

I found the Hermitage Book and added a bit to this and the subpages. Do let me know if there are particular things you're looking to flesh out and I can look for those areas specifically as I read through. I'm not picky about any edits, so feel free to revise, move, or remove as you see fit. --JayHenry (talk) 05:42, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

No please add as much as you like to the sub-pages, I have been rather side-tracked of late, and hope to get back onto the palace later this week. Thanks a lot. Giano (talk) 07:15, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Ah yes, well, the pressures of being a famous Wikipedian...

I'll keep chipping away. Do you think hermitagemuseum.org is an okay site for the rooms? Also, do you think some sort of template linking the rooms would be good? Is the idea to have the clicky map link to all the room pages as well? --JayHenry (talk) 01:49, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

More infamous than famous! The hermitage site is OK, bit I don't want to rely too heavily on it, so that this series is subtly different, otherwaise people may as well go there rather than here - if you follow me. The template is a good idea. I hope we can find someone who can turn the plan that is practically finished now into a "clicky map" (like the one at Queluz) wich will link directly to the pages on the rooms, I am not very good at that sort of thing, but will have a go if no-one volunteers. The rooms themselves can have the clicky map too, but with their own room shaded red, as I have done here. Your help is appreciated here, I may have bitten off more than can chew here! There is no need to mention too much about the Hermotage, as that is going to have it's own page in the category, which can also include the Winter Palace contents today, as it is today part of the Hermitage. I think the modern dau Palace can be wrapped up in a few paras in the conclusion heavily referring to the Hermitage Museum. :-) Giano (talk) 06:57, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Turns out I have a photo editor that can make clicky maps pretty easily. Well, none of the links are right, but I think I have all the labels in the right spot, and it won't take long to make them link to the correct spot. I love this feature. --JayHenry (talk) 06:55, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

That is so clever, really clever, well done! I shall not touch it, in case it falls to pieces. I hope to beback here in a few days, just as son as things are sorted elsewhere, Giano (talk) 07:07, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

Okay, tinkered with it some more and moved it to {{Winter Palace}}. If you want to change any of the links, do let me know. Right now some of the rooms link to image pages, but were you thinking that ideally we'd have them all link to subpages? Now that I've measured the rooms, it only takes a second to change where they link. I'll get back to the books and do some actual research this weekend too. Cheers! --JayHenry (talk) 17:11, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

Unscaled plan of the 1st floor of the Winter Palace as it appears today, the fourth palace on the site. The numbers in this key are referred to throughout the article—click on numbers for images, pages and further details.

It's brilliant!!!! this is just what Wikipedia needs, eventually thay can al lead to individual pages, though several will be sections of User:Giano/The Private Rooms of the Winter Palace page. This is something the Hermitage Site does not have, and will make out article more user friendly and easier to understand. Thanks so much. Giano (talk) 22:09, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

Hi Jay Henry, do you have any idea how we can get this plan into the text, in the same place as the other image (underneath the older plan and the same size) complete with a caption and explanatin of how to use it?

Yep! The caption text can only be changed by editing {{Winter Palace}} directly, it seems. I went ahead and dropped it in. --JayHenry (talk) 01:56, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Questions

• The lead sentence: was the official residence of the Russian tsars. Between when and when?
• Again from the opening para: the late 1730s and 19th century ...when in the 19th c?
• Once the symbol of imperial power, it's storming in 1917 made it a symbol of the Russian Revolution. Have no idea what is meant here. What is storming (I know what the word means but no context is provided to this point), why was it once a great symbol, why did it loose that status (as 'once' implies), why did it regain that status.
• the palace was the backdrop for the Bloody Sunday massacre? Backdrop? or setting

I apologise if these seem intemperate, blunt or brief; I've been eating a lot of icecream and now have a tooth-ace. Ceoil ^sláinte 23:18, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

Serves you right! I've addresses some of your points. The lead is supposed to be a summary, you have to read on for it to be fully explained,eg: for the storming section see here [42]. Giano (talk) 06:54, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

Would Image:WinterPalaceNevaSide.jpg be a better lead image? You can see tourists in the current pic. Ceoil ^sláinte 06:57, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

I tried that (in preview) last night, it is the wrong shape, it could stand alone as a centre pic at the top of the page (see Blenheim Palace) but the MOS people would not like it, and I'm not sure I do either - all the images have to be played about with sooner rather than later, I love the St George's Hall painting and photo comparassion, but soon someone will say one has to be in the Duma section, and I ought to show another rooms, 2 of the same room when space is limited is daft. I'm away for the rest of today, but will play with the images tonight or when I have finished writing the final 2 sections, there will be more space then to play with. Giano (talk) 07:11, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

If I may butt in, the intro picture is really not that appropriate, as it shows a lot of sky, monumental column and Palace Square, but not really much palace. There must be a better one somewhere. Oh and my humblest compliments, it's an amazing article. Kosebamse (talk) 07:35, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

I agree, it is a horrible lead image, but as the curent fund to send Husond, with his secret camera, to St Petersburg stands at 0.5 Euros, it appears that is the best we are going to get. Giano (talk) 18:59, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

I had a look on Flickr - I couldn't find anything outstanding which was freely licensed, but is Image:Winter Palace, Hermitage Museum.jpg any use? Alas it still has some tourists getting in the way, but at least it shows more palace than sky, and it shows the style of the main facade in more detail. Iain99^{Balderdash and piffle} 19:39, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, nice try...but.....the problem is the place is just too bloody long for most people's cameras. It also has to be the world's most repetative buildings, I'm sure someone could computer generate the main facade and know one would know the difference - of course, i would never suggest or condone anyone doing that......... Giano (talk) 20:16, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

Hee hee. I did think of suggesting that someone do this to the annoying tourists, but it's beyond my meagre Photoshop skills, as is the computer generated facade thing alas. Cheers anyway, Iain99^{Balderdash and piffle} 20:28, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

Is it wishful thinking on my part, or is this [43] image free? Giano (talk) 21:19, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

Wow! This [44] rhis is the one! Giano (talk) 21:39, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

(Outdent) Tagged as All Rights reserved I'm afraid [45]. The photographer is reasonably active, so I could ask nicely and see if he's be willing to release it under a free license. Some more free ones to consider in the meantime are [46] and [47] (they can easily be cropped and straightened). Iain99^{Balderdash and piffle} 21:59, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

The last one is good - is that free to use? Giano (talk) 22:05, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

Yup - I'll upload it now, then have a play on Photoshop. Give me a few minutes. Iain99^{Balderdash and piffle} 22:09, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

OK - the original photo's here, there's a cropped version here, and there's one where I've had a quick play with the colour and lighting here (someone with more skill at such things might be able to do a better job of this than me). Hope this helps! Iain99^{Balderdash and piffle} 22:26, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

That is a terrific improvement - thnk you very much indeed. Giano (talk) 17:32, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

Source

Re: Brumfield, William Craft. (1993). A History of Russian Architecture. New York: Cambridge University Press. No answers.com is not acceptable; but have you seen this video lecture. An hour and 10 minutes, no less. I'm sure it could be used as a source. Ceoil ^sláinte 02:42, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

Where is I use nNo answers.com? remind me. I;m sre it wil be something i can check without sitting through 70 minutes of tedium. Giano (talk) 17:32, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

Here - all good stuff, but really needs a better source, not sure this is acceptable. If you can get through the tedioum of the fat guy with the wig in the opening 10 minutes all is fine. I watched it from start to finish, Giano II, I hope you are not pretending about liking this buildings stuff! Ceoil ^sláinte 17:57, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

Help

I've seen the colour versionof this Image:PtheGspalace.jpg floating about on one of the foreign Wikipedias now I can't find it , I thought it was somewhere on the Rusian, but now I can't find it, anyone know where it is? Giano (talk) 19:11, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

Hmmm... it doesn't seem to be on any of the foreign language articles linked from the current page. Looking at some old revisions of the Russian article, it looks like it used to contain quite a few images which are now deleted on that Wikipedia (see here for example, especially the gallery towards the bottom. As I don't know any Russian I can't tell why they were deleted, or whether one of them was likely to be the one you're looking for. Sorry. :-( Iain99^{Balderdash and piffle} 20:52, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

Thanks - don't worry I have found it - now in place. Giano (talk) 21:39, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

Aurora

Aurora's shot was most probably blank, so I don't think that the Aurora began her bombardment of the great Neva facade is a fair description of the situation. The damage caused by live shells would certainly be much more lasting. Furthermore, the 1917 events have been mythologized to such an extent that more sources are needed, not only Explorations in St. Petersburg and Guardian (which are certainly not the best references we could have). I am not entirely happy with In truth, the storming of the Winter palace was... (was there any?). Per WP:NPOV and WP:NOR, Wikipedians are not in a position to decide where the thruth lies. We should fairly represent all significant views found in reliable sources. Colchicum (talk) 13:07, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

The ref used [48] says quite clearly that shots were fired, but actually I thought I had written that the guns were trained not fired, I see I was not concentrating and wrote fired. so we will leave it as trained to allow for the benefit of the doubt. I would noyt worry too much about "in truth" the page is going through its 100th re-write, and will probably have a 100 more before it foes into mainspace. Giano (talk) 14:03, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

Copy editing notes

• Second image in "The last Tsars (1855–1905)": Suggest determining exactly who "watshername" is, and adding it to the caption. I note the article on Alexis I identifies two consorts, so I'll leave you to figure out which one is depicted.  Done
• Peter the Great's Winter Palace (1711–1753): A diplomat of the time who described the city as "a heap of villages linked together"... - you note that you were looking for a reference for these quotes.  Done
• Peter the Great's Winter Palace (1711–1753): Clarify where Trezzini fits in the order of the building of different WPs.  Done
• Anna (1730–1740): Clarify where Rastrelli fits in the order of the building of different WPs (he is said to be building the fourth WP). Done

More to come tomorrow. Risker (talk) 05:55, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

Possibly a subpage

• Egyptian Collection of the Hermitage Museum. Colchicum (talk) 21:38, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Yep and no! That page belongs, I think, as a sub page of the Hermitage Museum, which all the pages I am writing are also, including the big Winter Palace page. My idea is that the big Winter Palace page has the history up until it ceased to be the Imperial Winter Palace, once it ceased to be Imperial, the Hermitage page takes over - as it did in real life. However, all the Winter Palace little sub pages concerning rooms can be brought right up to date and their present use and contents listed. Does that make sense? Giano (talk) 21:47, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Yes. As a side note, to avoid confusion, could you please clarify in the articles you create that the rooms in question are located on the first floor? There are many interesting things on the ground and 2nd floor as well. Colchicum (talk) 16:11, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

More copy editing notes

A few more points.

Lead

• ..."the greatest hangover in history"... - quote, needs a reference. I remember you had it referenced at an earlier point, so it's somewhere in the history.

It is referenced 'number 108'. Giano (talk) 07:20, 13 November 2008 (UTC)  Done

The palace 1725–1855

• Trezzini, who had designed the Summer Palace in 1711, was one of the greatest exponents of the Petrine Baroque style, new new design incorporated Mattarnovy's existing palace, making it one of the two terminating pavilions of the new, and third, Winter Palace.

Not sure I have the right context here, so I am hesitant to rebuild this sentence.

• Trezzini, who had designed the Summer Palace in 1711, was one of the greatest exponents of the Petrine Baroque style, now completly redeigned and expanded Mattarnovy's existing Winter Palace to such an extent that Mattarnovy's entire palace became just one of the two terminating pavilions of the new, and third, Winter Palace. Giano (talk) 07:50, 13 November 2008 (UTC)  Done

The fire of 1837

• ...a fire broke out, possibly because Montferrand had left pieces of wood too close to the chimney (of an apothecary stove and several smaller fireplaces) hidden in the wall between the two rooms, where the fire originated.

It's not clear what the chimney was attached to, based on this; some clarification perhaps?

The term "possibly because" probably means this sentence requires a reference  Done

Imperial Hermitage Museum

• ....what the public saw was a huge array of art, while only a fraction of the Imperial collection, at the Winter Palace and other Imperial palaces, remained closed to the viewing public.

Am I correct in understanding that most of the collection was on public display in the Hermitage? It was my assumption that most of it would have been at the WP and other palaces. :::typos had altered the meaning - fixed Giano (talk) 08:28, 13 November 2008 (UTC) Done

I've gone through everything now, except the Peter the Great section, though another pair of eyes wouldn't hurt, and one of those folks with a dash-bot would always be helpful. A very enjoyable page, Giano. Risker (talk) 03:42, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Note from Giano

I want to thank both Bishonen and Risker for their really long and laborious copyedits - I know how boring a job it can be. Could an Admin now phase this into mainspace? I think the history has to be blended somehow - God know's how. I think it needs to be there now, so that others can spot any remaining errors etc. One plan needs to be redrawn sometime, but it's not urgent. Perhaps this talk page can be archived too, so we can start afresh. If anyone moans about the two pages I am still working on in userspace linking to the page, I will put them into mainspace too as "underconstruction.". Thanks to you all Alex for helping to identify the rooms and his additions, Ian, and especially JayHenry for animating (or whatever its called) the plan, and all the many others who helped out. Thanks a bunch. Right, we need this show on the road, so do we have an Admin with the patience to do it Giano (talk) 08:39, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

dinner was held?

Section "The last Tsars (1855–1905)" says: "Fortunately for the Romanovs, a guest arriving from Berlin was delayed, and for the first time in years dinner was held." What does "held" mean here, dinner was delayed? It is confusing, as held has many meanings. My first impression was "dinner was served" / "dinner was conducted" / "dinner took place". Jay (talk) 12:49, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

It means dinner was delayed, I'll change it, but "held" is a common enough term when talking of delaying a meal I would have thought. I assume the term comes from "withheld" or "held up" Giano (talk) 17:07, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

"Held" for "delayed" may not be appropriate for a meal, probably. Got some responses at the Language ref desk. Jay (talk) 07:57, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

Yes, and you have one from me too [49]. Giano (talk) 12:56, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

"Tsar" after 1721

Excuse me for my terrible English at first). Great article. Only thing that seems disturbing to me as russian speaking person (and maybe so in many western sourses) is constant use of word Tsar/Tsarina for russian monarchs after Peter the Great. I understand it may be common practice in English, but in Russian it's relatively rare form in this particular case - something patriarchal and "for home use only". Anyway such formula as "Tsar and autocrate of all the Russias" is by all means an historical nonsense (after 1721), for in this case word Emperor was always in place of Ts. With all due respect, --Sartorio (talk) 22:58, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

I'm not at all certain that is the case in English; do you have any sources which would give this information, or is this from your personal experience (which unfortunately may not hold true for English speaking countries)? KillerChihuahua^?!?Advice 23:15, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

As I said, I can speak only as russian (but believe me in this case my expirience is enough)). With the idiom "Emperor and autocrate" the thing is quite simple: after Treaty of Nystad (1721) Russian Senate gave Peter the Great this title (of Emperor) and so it remained with all the concequences. And official style of russian monarchs since: NNN by the Grace of God Emperor and autocrate of all the Russias etc. Tsar in this case is minor title (for Kazan of Siberya tsardoms for example) - as Lord of Man for English Kings. You can see in this article http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsar. So "Tsar and autocrate" suits only for monarchs before 1721. --Sartorio (talk) 23:48, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

the article you link states "replaced in 1721 by imperator, but remained in common usage until 1917" which would tend to support you for the official, but not the vulgar, title used. We tend to use the most common term, per our Manual of Style, so Tsar would still be preferred for this article. I'm going to defer this to Giano - thank you again for your input. KillerChihuahua^?!?Advice 23:57, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

Understand you). As for the word itself (Tsar) it may be wright - in English espetially. But I must say (excuse me for this nothings) form "Tsar and autocrate" was quite extravagant for this period in Russian even in common talking (and so today). Anyway thank you too for the article. --Sartorio (talk) 00:29, 9 April 2010 (UTC)

According to all the reference books used various Tsars, Emperors and their consorts alternated their titles at whim depending on personal preference. Tsar was certainly the well referenced preference of Nicholas II. As far as I am aware the Tsar was also Autocrat of all the Russias. I am prepeared to be corrected, but from the various reference books used for writig this page, that is my understanding. I went with the use of Tsar overall as that is the most commonly used term in English, and to chop and change with each reign would confuse the less well versed reader.  Giano  18:02, 9 April 2010 (UTC)

Both Hughes and Massie give Peter I his full official title once or twice, but if I recall correctly, almost exclusively refer to him as simply "Tsar" in their normal writing and very rarely mention "Autocrat", even after they get to the post-1721 years. I think we should simply refer to the Russian leader as just "Tsar". NW (Talk) 23:06, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

Architectural question

Many excuses. It's me again. Just read about Naryshkin Baroque being "traditional Byzantine-influenced Russian architecture", which is not true someway - via link in the article and my own little architectural diploma. The truth is that modernisation - in many ways, not only in architecture or costumes - have started in Russia half century before Peter I, this interesting man just giving it new speed. --Sartorio (talk) 01:21, 9 April 2010 (UTC)

You are welcome to expand our coverage of the topic. The radicality of Naryshkin Baroque is a matter of definition. Some would include even Galitzine churches under this heading. I beg to differ. --Ghirla

I don't mean at all Naryshkin Baroque beeing some radical style. Only that fairly obvious fact: it's not "traditional Byzantine... etc". Indeed in many ways it's some pre-petrine conservative structures with rich baroque decoration, but anyway it is style "per se". And yes, all this era in russian art (1650-1700), provides some mess (very complex mixture of ideas and genres), so definitions, at least in russian sourses, tends to be quite careful. --Sartorio (talk) 00:02, 13 April 2010 (UTC)

^-трёп- 19:06, 9 April 2010 (UTC)

I suggest you consult User:Ghirlandajo on that question. I only have references for the information as it is in the article.  Giano  18:04, 9 April 2010 (UTC)

This line, indeed, sounds odd. May I recommend Cracraft's The Petrine revolution in Russian architecture. He provides a lengthy review of competing theories on pre-petrine art, early Muscovite and Ukrainian baroque etc. The whole subject is one big mess (and did not improve a bit since Cracraft's 1988 book). But singling out Byzantine influence as the only one must be removed (unless it's a quote from an antique source like de Custine or Ruskin). NVO (talk) 19:11, 9 April 2010 (UTC)

On the subject of Russian architecture, its origins and influences, I will always defer to Ghirla. In this field, I only repeat what I have references for.  Giano  20:39, 9 April 2010 (UTC)

Infobox.

I do not understand why people are against an infobox in this article. I have joined the discussion on this issue at Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#Infoboxes.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 13:50, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

In this case, the lead image needs to be quite large to give architectural and contextual (size) details. Placing it in an infobox does not allow for this. Nikkimaria (talk) 15:00, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

It has always been a wise and unwritten rule that info boxes are left to the discretion of the primary authors (in this case, me). I don't like them, they add nothing and distract much. If something is that important it can/should be in the lead. If other people want them on pages of which they are primary editors, then that is fine by me too. traditionally, they tend not to beused on achitectural pages, and many bios. I agree that they do lend themselves to mathmatical and scientific pages.Giacomo Returned 16:04, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

Sorry, I can't let that stand: Infoboxes are almost unknown on mathematics pages. At some point someone created an infobox for a class of mathematics articles, but WikiProject Mathematics had a consensus against that. See also Logarithm, which is currently at FAC without an infobox. Hans Adler 16:13, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

Surely you don't imagine that I have ever looked at a mathematics page, I was merely thinking of the dull tables in my school text books which save me the bother of reading the page properly. Giacomo Returned 16:20, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

I think its great that a nuclear physicist appreciates fine art and architecture. Not just me then who always got a headache from maths books.♦ Dr. Blofeld 11:22, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

Sources

Great article, exquisite, in the middle of preparing for GA nomination. A few things, in particular the State museum source. Do you mean the website or information actually obtained from the museum? If website it should be filled out with url, title and publisher. If they are indeed from the same source then all of the separate State Museum reference need to be united in a single a,b,c,d etc notes to the same source. Ah I see, many of sources are obtained from the sub pages of this site. We'll need to find the exact pages and urls and link sources to difference pages in difference references with titles. I'll look into this later.♦ Dr. Blofeld 11:19, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

OK found and filled out the state heritage museums refs which I could find. Remaining refs needing the urls are 36, 45, 63, 81, 82. If you could find the urls of the page which contain the information and paste them here I'll fill them out for you. Ref 78 is also odd, The Great Hall, what does this refer to?♦ Dr. Blofeld 12:36, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

As I have told you; I have no interest in raising this to GA or anything else. Giacomo Returned 12:39, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

Fine, then I'll do it myself.♦ Dr. Blofeld 12:44, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

You appear to be already doing so. Giacomo Returned 12:45, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

No worries, they are replaceable. I won't touch the article structure or images. I've condensed the post 1900 info a bit, retaining the vast majority... Right then I'll nominate this for GA now and will continue to add new sources and fill in bits of info over the next few weeks.♦ Dr. Blofeld 13:04, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

Please take out the google book links, use of them is highly controversial. Please also format the notes and references the same way that the remainder of the article has been formatted (basic MOS rule is that references/notes should continue to be formatted in the way initially started). Risker (talk) 14:28, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

If the books have ISBNs, those are sufficient for looking up the books online -- you don't need to link to Google Books directly. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 18:43, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

I have around 66 GAs which are formatted in exactly the same way this article currently is with link to the relative books in google books. Books which use multiple pages are listed in the bibliography and mere author name and page above. All other sources which use simply one page in a book or are single references can usually be linked in the above. However, I agree that all book sources should probably be placed underneath and the page names and author given even if only one ref link. Since when has linking to books been highly controversial? First I've heard of it, I'll ask Material Scientist. ♦ Dr. Blofeld 18:20, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

Since years ago; I remember being corrected on it before I had any Good/Featured credits. This being a free and open source project, there is a definite predilection to avoiding unnecessary links to commercial entities. (Indeed, I'm still kind of surprised that all the people worried about accidentally revealing their IP addresses will gladly click on all the google links at AfD, where their activities are harvested and used to develop a personal profile.) Risker (talk) 18:50, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

The matter of linking to Google Books was discussed at length a few months ago at Wikipedia talk:Citing sources/Archive 29#Google books and Wikipedia talk:Citing sources/Archive 29#Linking to Google Books pages. It appears to me that the consensus of the discussion (second link) was in favor of allowing links. Also see User:Uncle G/On common Google Books mistakes. --Orlady (talk) 19:00, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

Also discussed at Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates/archive47#Question about inline citations which was a bit earlier than the RfC and Uncle G's page, fwiw. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 19:27, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

Of course allowing Google Books links is not the same as allowing random editors to take over a well-kept article that intentionally doesn't have them and introduce them there. It's the same principle as with infoboxes and basically the same idea as with WP:ENGVAR. Hans Adler 19:38, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

Then in that case they can be simply delinked if that is the feeling. Risker has a point about the book sources which I had intended addressing immediately and moving all to the bibliography and adding book pages only and removing the google book links for consistency, I'm fine with that. Now sadly we have hours of constructive work, referencing unsourced paragraphs with wider reliable sources, ref fills for all of the Heritage Museum sources which I could find giving precise page and full refs rather than simply "State Heritage Museum" (it was not a book source, its web so should be accesible), minor copyedits. I barely removed any text, but in fact added some very important details if you care to examine the page history comparison. I believe I removd a little from the 1900- present section, removing some of the historical info which seemed to drift away from the actual palace. Some sentences seemd like OR like the architect squabbling which I sought out a sources to support which was completely unreferenced. If it was really essential it could easily be restored strong claims like that need sources. I find is very unusual that Giano did not revert me this morning but since he learned I've nominated it for GA has grown angry and I feel he did this in spite. If you restore the clearly improved version with improved sourcing I will most certainly address Risker's request for all books at the bottom and no google book links if that is the consenus here. Not many people commenting here think much of me, sadly, but I do know what I'm doing in regards to improving articles and believe this revert is a grave sporadic error. You may all support Giano here, but my edits were mostly all legitimate and necessary for this to pass GA. If nobody wants this to pass GA then keep the article as it is and let Giano have his way. As it stands now it will not pass GA and hours of work on it this morning will have been reverted out of spite. Any referencing issues would be easily fixed in the earlier version. This is very sad what has happened here I think. If it had been me telling somebody to piss off and reverting their hours of GA preperation work I'd probably be instantly reverted by an blocked, Giano does not get a single warning.♦ Dr. Blofeld 20:08, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

You need to understand that writing a great article involves far more than just following a formula that ticks certain boxes. You also need to understand that this is a great article – it is insightful, engaging, and endlessly informative. It matters not a jot whether it has GA or FA markers at the top of it; most people who read it can appreciate the skill that has gone into creating the article as it is. If you cannot appreciate that, then I feel pity for you, because a lack of aesthetic appreciation is a terrible affliction. Modifying this article to meet some perception of what makes a "good article" is not a improvement – it's a desecration, and that's why you're receiving so much negative commentary from other editors. Please stop and think about it: it's really not about you; it's all about preserving the quality of this article. I'm sorry to hear that you feel you've lost several hours of work. Just consider the hundreds of hours of work that Giano put into bringing it to its current form – researching the background, checking with other editors, finding just the right word and turn of phrase. Then ask yourself how pleased you would be if it was your labour of love that was being hacked at, turning bright imagery into leaden prose. I'd strongly recommend you apply your undoubted talents of referencing to clearing our unsourced BLP backlog, or expanding the hundreds of thousands of stubs that are crying out for sourcing, but please, please, please, don't turn this into a time-sink and fight. We could all be engaged in doing far more productive things with our time. --RexxS (talk) 00:17, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

Rubbish, have you even looked at the OR sentences I added sources too, the empty web refs to State Hermitage museum I filled in and the additional info I added from a wider range of sources? Quality improved not decreased. And you think my edits didn't preserve its quality?? Until one administrator can stand up for what is right here and is prepared to deal with this fairly and see my improved version and let me address the references as Risker identified then you've lost me as an editor of wikipedia. Risker herself knows that Giano's complete reversion was not appropriate (although she'll obviously claim otherwise for the sake of supporting Giano), even if she disagreed with the references, which as I said could easily be sorted and we could move forward together on this. Wikipedia IS free to edit and any editor should be free to develop an articles, clean it up and wish to promote. Nobody has the right to "preserve" their own work and resist development. This is an EXTREME violation of Wikipedia:Ownership of articles. Every fucking administrator here knows this but are so into Giano and against me that they wouldn't do a thing about it. If it had been virtually anybody else it would have been restored and the editor concerned blocked for disruption. Please open your eyes at what has been done here. Increasing our GA and FA content is far more important than bowing down to some editor people revere here as a sort of wiki god. Content is most important here not people. My version stood a very good chance of being promoted to GA. We are here to build an encyclopedia not bow down to revered editors they think getitng on the good books of will make them more powerful. Anybody who stands in the way of progress is contrary to the principle of wikipedia and this is exactly what has been done here. Please people forget about personal pride and think about how we can get articles to GA and beyond in collaboration. ♦ Dr. Blofeld 09:20, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

Content

It seems to me that you fairly haphazardly removed a lot of well-sourced content from Winter Palace that was added by the WP:GAC nominator. This article is outside of my expertise, but please reconsider reverting much of this edit.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 18:53, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

I think reverting is probably not correct. Parts of both version have encyclopedic content not in the other. An involved editor needs to integrate the content.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 19:19, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

Discussion needs to happen first, if this is disputed. Ser Amantio's re-revert - and any that may follow - are edit-warring per WP:BRD. Blofeld acted, Giacomo reverted - now talk first, don't re-revert. Nikkimaria (talk) 19:26, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

I'm in agreement with Tony, in that integration needs to happen. Forgive the revert - I admit it was a bit pointy, but I didn't see anything in there that appeared not to belong, and I didn't feel the initial revert was warranted. I still don't, but I'm not going to continue a war, now that discussion has been opened.

(Not that I'd continue a war otherwise, but...oh, you understand.)

_{I'll shut up now.}--Ser Amantio di Nicolao^{Che dicono a Signa?}_{Lo dicono a Signa.} 19:37, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

Regardless of whether or not some of the edits improved the article (some might have, others maybe not), the references were improperly formatted and the style was not in keeping with the rest of the article. In those situations, it is common practice to revert back to the last good version, particularly when the content itself is being questioned. Take it step by step, and ensure that any additions are not only appropriate but properly formatted in keeping with the article's style. Risker (talk) 19:58, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

See above please.♦ Dr. Blofeld 20:09, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

Looking at the editors here and Blofelds' last few edits on their talk pages, I think we can make our own assumptions. Giacomo Returned 20:10, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

GA nomination

Blofeld, if you stopped your ranting a bothered to look at the page, you would see that your “version” has been in situ for over 12 hours [50]. I originally reverted you because you were not consistent and I did not agree with your “condensing.” However, you version is still there – do you see me ranting? Until your fiddling with the references yesterday you had not edited the page ever. I have written it from next to nothing and it took nearly a year and 1000s of edits in userspace and mainspace. If you look at this talk page above, to the top and downwards, you will see the immense help and support I received from other editors, it was a collegiate effort and certainly none of them acused me of WP-OWN. This is not just a page, but part of a category on the subject – all written by me and not yet finished – there is one large page, possibly to be a section here, still in user space and two or three more to write. That I say, I don't want my work assessed before completion (I realised that immediately after the short-lived FAC nom) is not WP-OWN; it is something that most people would find perfectly reasonable and understandable. That I do not want to work with you (somebody who drove by and plonked even by info-box standards a hideous example on the page and then accused those not liking it of being homosexuals and illiterate Spaniards and then nominated a perfectly food page for deletion out of pure spite and malice) is a very understandable reaction on my part. You know I did not want the page GAd and yet to persevere. Looking at this talk page which was such a happy collegiate place; it has been completely despoiled by you and your trolling. I don't want to hear any more of this from you. Giacomo Returned 12:26, 14 April 2011 (UTC)