Talk:Adolf Hitler

Changes to the lead

I have reverted recent changes by Cwobeel to the last sentence of the lead. The figure of 11 million other victims does not appear elsewhere in the article, and thus does not belong in the lead. Also, the sentence was the subject of extensive discussion in the past, and I believe the wording should not be changed without consensus. Interested parties can find previous discussion regarding leaving out the 11 million figure at Wikipedia:Dispute resolution noticeboard/Archive 66#Adolf Hitler. -- Diannaa (talk) 03:35, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

Previous discussions notwithstanding, it is very surprising that The Holocaust is not mentioned in the lede. Therefore I ask that a discussion is entertained about this simple edit. If there is a de facto consensus, consensus can change. I will wait for comments, and start an RFC if needed. - Cwobeel (talk) 04:07, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

This wasn't a simple edit. Diannaa reverted the changes and then Cwobeel changed it back after adding more to the body without any discussion. Just because someone is "surprised" that something isn't there doesn't mean that it should be. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.24.193.20 (talk) 06:56, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

The holocaust is mentioned in the lead, it just isn't called the holocaust. Read the last sentence, just above the contents list. Britmax (talk) 09:53, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

Cwobeel, there has been long discussions about this both on this talk page and in mediation; it was more than a "de facto" consensus. The fact is, the Holocaust is already mentioned as Britmax states; it covers the subject. Kierzek (talk) 13:43, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

I've removed the content Cwobeel added to the body, which does not have adequate sourcing to meet Good Article standards. I've replaced it with some well-cited content from Nazi Germany. Feedback welcome. -- Diannaa (talk) 15:13, 15 December 2014 (UTC) For attribution sake, it's best to mention that Cwobeel copied the content from The Holocaust. -- Diannaa (talk) 15:22, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

Looks fine to me and the RS sourcing you added is better. Kierzek (talk) 15:23, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

Good edit, thanks Dianna. Now, how is it that the lede does not mention the total Genocide numbers? The lede now reads least 5.5 million Jews, and millions of other victims. Why to use a generic "millions", when we have sources that state the numbers? - Cwobeel (talk) 15:37, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

Because it's the lead, which is only a summary and not the article. Britmax (talk) 18:42, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

Before the mediation began, the sentence read "Hitler's supremacist and racially motivated policies resulted in the systematic murder of eleven million people, including an estimated six million Jews, and indirectly and directly caused the deaths of an estimated 50 million people during World War II." If I recall correctly, the gist of the mediation was that since Hitler could not directly be blamed for all these deaths, it should not go in the lead. There was a lot of discussion about the 6 million figure as well; stating "at least 5.5 million" was a compromise solution. -- Diannaa (talk) 19:46, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

I have not read through all the long mediation notes, but I find it quite puzzling that we include a figure for the genocide of Jews, but not for others. Why the difference? - Cwobeel (talk) 19:52, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

Is there a figure you can suggest be used in the article? My understanding is that there are quite wide variations in the credible figures due to differences in definitions, etc. Nick-D (talk) 07:25, 16 December 2014 (UTC)

The mention of the Jews in the lead is the use of the prime example to illustrate the point. Repeating the other examples would turn the lead into a list of these things, and a copy of the article, rather than a summary. The lead is supposed to be a summary and its length is limited. Britmax (talk) 10:10, 16 December 2014 (UTC)

I agree with Britmax. And Nick-D, FYI, we went through all this in long drawn out detail with cites at Wikipedia:Dispute resolution/mediation and it was discussed in a RFC yet again thereafter (see:Talk:Adolf Hitler/Archive 54). Currently the body of the article covers the numbers with RS cites. Kierzek (talk) 14:12, 16 December 2014 (UTC)

Fair enough (I had forgotten that - thanks for the reminder). My comment to Cwobeel was intended to ask them to make a constructive suggestion rather than imply some form of bias. Nick-D (talk) 07:34, 17 December 2014 (UTC)

No worries, Nick-D. Cheers, Kierzek (talk) 14:03, 17 December 2014 (UTC)

Hitler's Relationship with Mussolini

I would like to request the following text to be included in the Entry into politics section as a new paragraph after "Hitler designed the party's banner of a swastika in a white circle on a red background." I believe this connection between Hitler and Mussolini is of deep significance when attempting to understand the origins of German National Socialism.

This is the text to be inserted, (the quote is taken from http://www.greatwar.nl/books/meinkampf/meinkampf.pdf ):

Hitler was profoundly influenced by Mussolini, who had become Prime Minister of Italy in 1922, and openly admits this influence in "Mein Kampf":

At that time--I admit it openly--I conceived a profound admiration for the great man beyond the Alps, whose ardent love for his people inspired him not to bargain with Italy's internal enemies but to use all possible ways and means in an effort to wipe them out. What places Mussolini in the ranks of the world's great men is his decision not to share Italy with the Marxists but to redeem his country from Marxism by destroying internationalism. - Adolph Hitler, Mein Kampf

References

Historicat (talk) 10:55, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

-Response to edit request:

Not done: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit semi-protected}} template.  ^B E _C K ^Y _S A ^{Y L} E _S  19:12, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

Sorry, I am new to editing Wikipedia. I shall investigate getting a consensus. Historicat (talk) 20:19, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

I am opposed to including the content, for several reasons. First, Mussolini's influence on Hitler and the NSDAP is already briefly covered (in the opening paragraph of the "Beer Hall Putsch" section). Second, it's not appropriate to quote extensively from the writings of the subject of a biography, as our articles need to rely for their content on secondary sources such as reputable historians and reliable web content. Please see WP:Primary for more information on selecting sources. Third, content on Mussolini's influence would be better added to the sub-article Political views of Adolf Hitler. This article has to be kept as an overview, and it is already too large, so we have to be extremely selective about additions. -- Diannaa (talk) 20:26, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

I agree with Diannaa's points on the matter. Kierzek (talk) 21:28, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

I also think this addition would be better in the Political views article. Britmax (talk) 11:07, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

It was added there and I did copy edit work to it; retaining the points made above. Kierzek (talk) 13:33, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

Should we have an article on Day of Potsdam?

I just wanted to suggest to regular editors of this article (who are better versed in this topic) that we should have an article on Day of Potsdam. Any volunteers to write it? A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 18:46, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

I don't know if a full sub-article is needed. Some could be added as to its "meaning" in several other articles to state: On 21 March 1933, Hitler used the inaugural celebrations of the newly elected Reichstag for propaganda purposes, etc. He used the occasion to show symbolic deference to Paul von Hindenburg and the military which helped lead to the Enabling Act of 1933; something along those lines. Anyone else have any thoughts on this? Kierzek (talk) 19:25, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

As an idea, this might be covered in a more interesting way as part of a broader article covering the Nazis' accession to power. Nick-D (talk) 06:51, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

Well, we do already have an article known as Adolf Hitler's rise to power; so it could be added therein. Kierzek (talk) 13:40, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

I agree with Kierzek. Seems most relevant. Jonas Vinther (speak to me!) 15:02, 10 January 2015 (UTC)

In popular culture

We don't actually have content in this article regarding pop culture mentions or appearances of Hitler. There's simply too much material, and it was all moved to the sub-article Adolf Hitler in popular culture at the time the article passed GA. I have re-named the section as "In propaganda films", as that best reflects what content the section actually contains. Feedback and discussion is welcome. -- Diannaa (talk) 23:08, 10 January 2015 (UTC)

How about ... "Propaganda appearances"? Jonas Vinther (speak to me!) 23:31, 10 January 2015 (UTC)

Most public appearances by political figures are, in some form or another, propaganda. It might be best to discuss how Hitler was portrayed by the German media and Nazi propaganda machine (until they became one and the same thing) rather than highlight particular instances. Nick-D (talk) 23:35, 10 January 2015 (UTC)

You make a compelling point. I will write a suggestion for implementation tomorrow. Jonas Vinther (speak to me!) 01:08, 11 January 2015 (UTC)

Since we are only listing propaganda films appearances, I agree with Diannaa here. Kierzek (talk) 15:19, 11 January 2015 (UTC)

I also agree with the section title, "In propaganda films." A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 16:52, 11 January 2015 (UTC)

Sorry for the looooong delay! How about replacing the current content with this:

Hitler exploited documentary films and newsreels to inspire a cult of personality and give the impression of a strongman. He was involved and appeared in a series of micromanaged propaganda films throughout his political career—like Der Sieg des Glaubens and Triumph des Willens—made by Leni Riefenstahl, regarded as a pioneer of modern filmmaking.

References

What's your thoughts on this? Jonas Vinther (speak to me!) 21:22, 18 January 2015 (UTC)

I like it, except for the phrase "give the impression of a strongman." I would like to omit that part. -- Diannaa (talk) 01:35, 19 January 2015 (UTC)

I'm no grammar Nazi (haha!) but I think it should be "such as", not "like". A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 01:40, 19 January 2015 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 10 January 2015

Adolf hitler spoke spanish to his mistress Lupita sema delores, in 1938. sources from his great great granddaughter samantha cortez who is lupitas niece.

Lexxzilla (talk) 23:53, 10 January 2015 (UTC)

Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. — {{U|Technical 13}} ^{(e • t • c)} 00:14, 11 January 2015 (UTC)