Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/2010 December 23: Difference between revisions
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:''The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the template below. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's talk page or in a [[Wikipedia:Deletion review|deletion review]]). No further edits should be made to this section.'' |
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The result of the discussion was '''Keep''' on the condition that they are placed into use. [[User:Ruslik0|Ruslik]]_[[User Talk:Ruslik0|<span style="color:red">Zero</span>]] 17:46, 1 January 2011 (UTC) |
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****Are you aware we are discussing templates and not a category?--[[User:TonyTheTiger|TonyTheTiger]] <small>([[User talk:TonyTheTiger|T]]/[[Special:Contributions/TonyTheTiger|C]]/[[User:TonyTheTiger/Antonio Vernon|BIO]]/[[WP:CHICAGO]]/[[WP:FOUR]]) </small> 01:14, 27 December 2010 (UTC) |
****Are you aware we are discussing templates and not a category?--[[User:TonyTheTiger|TonyTheTiger]] <small>([[User talk:TonyTheTiger|T]]/[[Special:Contributions/TonyTheTiger|C]]/[[User:TonyTheTiger/Antonio Vernon|BIO]]/[[WP:CHICAGO]]/[[WP:FOUR]]) </small> 01:14, 27 December 2010 (UTC) |
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<small>Note:This was mentioned on [[WP:POKER]]---'''[[User:Balloonman|<font color="purple">Balloonman</font>]]''' ''[[User talk:Balloonman|<b><sup><small>NO! I'm Spartacus!</small></sup></b>]]'' 06:40, 26 December 2010 (UTC)</small> |
<small>Note:This was mentioned on [[WP:POKER]]---'''[[User:Balloonman|<font color="purple">Balloonman</font>]]''' ''[[User talk:Balloonman|<b><sup><small>NO! I'm Spartacus!</small></sup></b>]]'' 06:40, 26 December 2010 (UTC)</small> |
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:''The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's talk page or in a [[Wikipedia:Deletion review|deletion review]]). No further edits should be made to this section.''</div> |
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==== [[Template:2010 Tri Nations table]] ==== |
==== [[Template:2010 Tri Nations table]] ==== |
Revision as of 17:46, 1 January 2011
December 23
- Template:1996–97 Big 12 women's basketball standings (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
- Template:1997–98 Big 12 women's basketball standings (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
- Template:1998–99 Big 12 women's basketball standings (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
- Template:1999–00 Big 12 women's basketball standings (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
- Template:2000–01 Big 12 women's basketball standings (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
- Template:2001–02 Big 12 women's basketball standings (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
- Template:2002–03 Big 12 women's basketball standings (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
- Template:2003–04 Big 12 women's basketball standings (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
- Template:2004–05 Big 12 women's basketball standings (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
- Template:2005–06 Big 12 women's basketball standings (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
- Template:2006–07 Big 12 women's basketball standings (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
- Template:2007–08 Big 12 women's basketball standings (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
Unused. Mhiji (talk) 15:15, 15 December 2010 (UTC)
- Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Plastikspork ―Œ(talk) 04:29, 23 December 2010 (UTC) - Keep these templates should be kept and used on the pages of the teams who are in the standings.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 21:01, 29 December 2010 (UTC)
- You're saying we should add all 12 of these templates to this article (and the other teams)?! Mhiji (talk) 23:24, 29 December 2010 (UTC)
- No. team season articles like 2009–10 Oklahoma Sooners women's basketball team use these templates. General team articles do not.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 23:46, 30 December 2010 (UTC)
- OK, but there isn't an article at 1996–97 Oklahoma Sooners women's basketball team, 2003–04 Missouri Tigers women's basketball team etc etc. So these are unnecessary - there aren't pages to put them on. Mhiji (talk) 23:52, 30 December 2010 (UTC)
- Well. WP is slowly starting to fill in team season articles. There is likely to be at least one team on each template in the future that has an article in need of this template. It would be best if someone would stub out one article for each template now. However, if a template has no articles yet, we could delete these with a clear note that there is no prejudice against their recreation when the appropriate articles come into existence.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 00:12, 31 December 2010 (UTC)
- OK, but there isn't an article at 1996–97 Oklahoma Sooners women's basketball team, 2003–04 Missouri Tigers women's basketball team etc etc. So these are unnecessary - there aren't pages to put them on. Mhiji (talk) 23:52, 30 December 2010 (UTC)
- No. team season articles like 2009–10 Oklahoma Sooners women's basketball team use these templates. General team articles do not.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 23:46, 30 December 2010 (UTC)
- You're saying we should add all 12 of these templates to this article (and the other teams)?! Mhiji (talk) 23:24, 29 December 2010 (UTC)
Unused. Mhiji (talk) 11:53, 15 December 2010 (UTC)
- Keep Handy and encyclopedic, I could imagine a use for this in the future. ThemFromSpace 11:07, 21 December 2010 (UTC)
- Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Plastikspork ―Œ(talk) 04:22, 23 December 2010 (UTC)
- Template:Infobox reactor (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
This template largely contains fields of which its contents are, in most cases, very difficult to find. While the rest contains fields which largely duplicates the nuclear section of {{Infobox power station}}.
For instance, at template:infobox reactor/doc, the first part could be found in the nuke infobox mentioned above. In the second section ("construction and upkeep"), five lines are dupes, while the other four are fields for rare info. In the third section ("technical info") nearly all of it are fields for rare info.
The infobox is used in only a handful of articles, and IMHO, could be well off in the nuke section of the power station infobox. Comments? Rehman 15:33, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
- Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Plastikspork ―Œ(talk) 03:40, 23 November 2010 (UTC)
- Delete unused and redundant. 119.235.2.141 (talk) 04:55, 28 November 2010 (UTC)
- Delete per nom. SchuminWeb (Talk) 22:41, 28 November 2010 (UTC)
- Merge into Template:Infobox power station. --Bsherr (talk) 22:44, 28 November 2010 (UTC)
- I don't think there is anything important to merge; the fields that are at
{{Infobox reactor}}
and not at{{Infobox power station}}
are fields for rare content, which may most of the time be unused; a bad thing for the already-large Power Station Infobox. Lets add the fields there only when the real need comes. Rehman 00:30, 29 November 2010 (UTC)- There is no visable consequence to unused fields in a the power station template. The consequence of deleting those fields is visable deletion of content from the encyclopedia. The latter seems far worse than the former, unless you can justify the deletion of that content. --Bsherr (talk) 01:40, 29 November 2010 (UTC)
- You have a point. But adding the "ever-unused" fields to the power station infobox doesn't make sense. Of course, if sufficient need is shown to have these fields, we could add it. But not just to "save the fields" of a template that's going to be deleted. Rehman 11:29, 29 November 2010 (UTC)
- It would be fine to only merge the populated fields. --Bsherr (talk) 16:13, 2 December 2010 (UTC)
- So, when you orphaned the template, were there any populated fields that you left out of the new infobox? --Bsherr (talk) 17:31, 3 December 2010 (UTC)
- You have a point. But adding the "ever-unused" fields to the power station infobox doesn't make sense. Of course, if sufficient need is shown to have these fields, we could add it. But not just to "save the fields" of a template that's going to be deleted. Rehman 11:29, 29 November 2010 (UTC)
- There is no visable consequence to unused fields in a the power station template. The consequence of deleting those fields is visable deletion of content from the encyclopedia. The latter seems far worse than the former, unless you can justify the deletion of that content. --Bsherr (talk) 01:40, 29 November 2010 (UTC)
- I don't think there is anything important to merge; the fields that are at
- Yes. They were a few which was removed, as they fit well in the main text instead, as such fields should per WP:IBT. Rehman 05:57, 4 December 2010 (UTC)
- Do you recall which parameters? Before orphaning, did you always integrate the material from those parameters into the article text? Could you give examples of which articles? Thanks. --Bsherr (talk) 05:59, 4 December 2010 (UTC)
- All except four already has the necessary contents mentioned in the main text. The remaining four lost a few lines that doesn't have direct inline citations (1, 2, 3, 4). Could you tell me what this has to do with the deletion of this template? If there was a copyediting or referencing issue, it should be dealt with at the article talkpage or my talkpage (as I made the edits). Rehman 06:14, 4 December 2010 (UTC)
- It's pertinent because, by orphaning the template out of process, you caused the deletion of content from the encyclopedia without consensus to do so. In determining whether the template should be merged or deleted, users here need to understand the significance of that deleted content. Personally, I find that parameters in Infobox reactor, such as cooling, moderator, control rods, shielding, are important and valuable, and should be merged, not deleted. If they're not sourced, they should be marked with a template, not deleted. Do you disagree? If so, why? --Bsherr (talk) 20:19, 5 December 2010 (UTC)
- What you're saying is, no doubt, correct. But, in this case, the 8-or-so infoboxes I boldly replaced, did very little change; have a look at the diffs provided by the IP. Yet again, per WP:IBT, those fields do not go in the infobox. And if you really would like to have those fields in, I suggest you take this to WT:ENERGY, or the template talk, to gain consensus to do so. But whether we add it there or not, IMVHO there is clearly no reason to keep this infobox. Rehman 09:01, 6 December 2010 (UTC)
- The purpose of this discussion is to form consensus on the relevant templates, including possibly for a merge, so there's no need to start a new discussion. Could you be more specific about why, per WP:IBT, these fields don't belong? I only want to reply with what's relevant to your assertion. (Also, I don't take issue with bold edits generally, but the instructions here at TfD provide that templates are rarely orphaned while under discussion. It's just an issue of sequence. Thanks.) --Bsherr (talk) 16:03, 7 December 2010 (UTC)
- What you're saying is, no doubt, correct. But, in this case, the 8-or-so infoboxes I boldly replaced, did very little change; have a look at the diffs provided by the IP. Yet again, per WP:IBT, those fields do not go in the infobox. And if you really would like to have those fields in, I suggest you take this to WT:ENERGY, or the template talk, to gain consensus to do so. But whether we add it there or not, IMVHO there is clearly no reason to keep this infobox. Rehman 09:01, 6 December 2010 (UTC)
- It's pertinent because, by orphaning the template out of process, you caused the deletion of content from the encyclopedia without consensus to do so. In determining whether the template should be merged or deleted, users here need to understand the significance of that deleted content. Personally, I find that parameters in Infobox reactor, such as cooling, moderator, control rods, shielding, are important and valuable, and should be merged, not deleted. If they're not sourced, they should be marked with a template, not deleted. Do you disagree? If so, why? --Bsherr (talk) 20:19, 5 December 2010 (UTC)
- All except four already has the necessary contents mentioned in the main text. The remaining four lost a few lines that doesn't have direct inline citations (1, 2, 3, 4). Could you tell me what this has to do with the deletion of this template? If there was a copyediting or referencing issue, it should be dealt with at the article talkpage or my talkpage (as I made the edits). Rehman 06:14, 4 December 2010 (UTC)
- Do you recall which parameters? Before orphaning, did you always integrate the material from those parameters into the article text? Could you give examples of which articles? Thanks. --Bsherr (talk) 05:59, 4 December 2010 (UTC)
- Per the bold edits; I guess you are right, I shouldn't have done that. But thanks to the IP below, the few such edits are now accessible for any review. Back to the topic, per IBT:
[...] keep in mind the purpose of an infobox: to summarize key facts about the article in which it appears. The less information it contains, the more effectively it serves that purpose, [...]. Of necessity, some infoboxes contain more than just a few fields; however, wherever possible, present information in short form, and exclude any unnecessary content.
Per above, I think we should proceed with the deletion of this template (as keeping this is now out of the question), and if you prefer, you may nominate new fields at template talk:infobox power station, linking to this (to-be archived) discussion. And if consensus is reached to add any of the fields, we add, or else simply get along with other stuff. Agree? If not, why? Rehman 02:46, 8 December 2010 (UTC)
- Like I said, the discussion here will suffice to form consensus to add fields to infobox power station, if the consensus here is merge. If the consensus is not merge, I would oppose deletion of infobox reactor. Ok, so you're pointing to the value criterion. To me, the information is valuable, and in appropriate short form for an infobox. Do you think the information on cooling and casing isn't valuable? --Bsherr (talk) 17:00, 8 December 2010 (UTC)
- I didn't say it isn't valuable; it just doesn't fit in the infobox per IBT. We currently have three deletes and two merges; I still don't support your argument. Rehman 03:16, 9 December 2010 (UTC)
- Ok, why doesn't it fit? It would be easier for me, I think, if you could explain, rather than quote the guideline. (I'm not sure 3-2 is a consensus, but if you wish to stop discussing, that's up to you.) --Bsherr (talk) 03:53, 9 December 2010 (UTC)
- I didn't say it isn't valuable; it just doesn't fit in the infobox per IBT. We currently have three deletes and two merges; I still don't support your argument. Rehman 03:16, 9 December 2010 (UTC)
- Like I said, the discussion here will suffice to form consensus to add fields to infobox power station, if the consensus here is merge. If the consensus is not merge, I would oppose deletion of infobox reactor. Ok, so you're pointing to the value criterion. To me, the information is valuable, and in appropriate short form for an infobox. Do you think the information on cooling and casing isn't valuable? --Bsherr (talk) 17:00, 8 December 2010 (UTC)
DeleteMerge It appears someone figured out a way to merge this, since it is now orphaned?In that case, I would say full speed ahead with deletion.134.253.26.9 (talk) 00:51, 3 December 2010 (UTC)
- It's unused becuase User:Rehman orphaned it out of process. --Bsherr (talk) 17:28, 3 December 2010 (UTC)
- Oh, I see. Check these edits to see what (if anything) was lost in the process: [1], [2], [3], [4], [5], [6], [7], and [8]. 134.253.26.6 (talk) 20:05, 3 December 2010 (UTC)
- Thanks. Hopefully Rehman will help by volunteering the information, so I don't have to dig. Meanwhile, would you consider revising your vote to merge (or at least neutral until we get this information)? --Bsherr (talk) 20:55, 3 December 2010 (UTC)
- Will do. 134.253.26.6 (talk) 22:47, 3 December 2010 (UTC)
- Thanks. Hopefully Rehman will help by volunteering the information, so I don't have to dig. Meanwhile, would you consider revising your vote to merge (or at least neutral until we get this information)? --Bsherr (talk) 20:55, 3 December 2010 (UTC)
- Oh, I see. Check these edits to see what (if anything) was lost in the process: [1], [2], [3], [4], [5], [6], [7], and [8]. 134.253.26.6 (talk) 20:05, 3 December 2010 (UTC)
- It's unused becuase User:Rehman orphaned it out of process. --Bsherr (talk) 17:28, 3 December 2010 (UTC)
- There is nothing necessary to merge. Per WP:IBT, this merge is useless. See my comment above; the information for the fields are so rare and hard to find. And the contents that could be found, is already at
{{Infobox power station}}
. If ever something "rare" is really needed in the infobox, use the|extra=
parameter instead; not create a whole new parameter. Rehman 01:11, 4 December 2010 (UTC)- Could you answer my question above, please? --Bsherr (talk) 05:10, 4 December 2010 (UTC)
- Sorry I didn't see that. See above. Rehman 05:57, 4 December 2010 (UTC)
- Could you answer my question above, please? --Bsherr (talk) 05:10, 4 December 2010 (UTC)
- Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, JPG-GR (talk) 06:43, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
- Keep. Not all reactors are used for power generation. It is reasonable to have a separate template for reactors. It would be confusing to use {{Infobox power station}} in them. Ruslik_Zero 18:24, 11 December 2010 (UTC)
- Okay, so what are the other uses of a reactor? Rehman 10:00, 18 December 2010 (UTC)
- I am indifferent to the merger, but see the list of reactors in Template:Nuclear technology. None are using an infobox right now? 68.35.24.151 (talk) 15:32, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
- You are deviating from the subject; the current nom ({{Infobox reactor}}) doesn't contain the fields that you say are better off in a separate reactor infobox. The current reactor infobox proposed for deletion is mostly used only for power generation. Not for medical, etc. And I also don't see how useful it would be to have an infobox like that either. Rehman 04:04, 20 December 2010 (UTC)
- Reactors may be used for many purposes: testing, research, production etc. You can see the full list here. In the future, please, acquaint yourself with the topic before nominating anything for deletion. Ruslik_Zero 18:46, 31 December 2010 (UTC)
- I am indifferent to the merger, but see the list of reactors in Template:Nuclear technology. None are using an infobox right now? 68.35.24.151 (talk) 15:32, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
- Okay, so what are the other uses of a reactor? Rehman 10:00, 18 December 2010 (UTC)
- Comment. I fully agree that power generation reactors are covered by {{Infobox power station}}. However, it seems that we probably need an infobox for the different reactor types and the name "Infobox reactor" seems perfect for this purpose. Of course, in this case this infobox should be redigned. Beagel (talk) 18:49, 21 December 2010 (UTC)
- Exactly what I am trying to say above. This current infobox is just a dupe of the current power station infobox, with the other fields falling redundant per WP:IBT. If for any reason the need for such a new "Infobox Reactor" is needed, it can by all means be created then; the current box is ok to be deleted. If someone wants to transform it now, by all means do so, else just delete this and recreate the title when the need comes. Rehman 11:14, 22 December 2010 (UTC)
- Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Plastikspork ―Œ(talk) 03:00, 23 December 2010 (UTC)
- Keep. The nuclear-specific portion of {{Infobox power station}} assumes a nuclear power plant with multiple reactors (as it should), and is not appropriate for research and experimental reactors which generally have no turbine, a single reactor, and no power generation. {{Infobox reactor}} is relevant to those reactors (specifically, the fast and thermal fluxes are directly relevant to the usual use of these reactors as neutron sources; this information can be found at [9]). Because research reactors don't generate power I don't think a merge is appropriate. Perhaps {{Infobox reactor}} should be renamed to "experimental reactor" (I would support that), but the two templates serve different purposes. Sho Uemura (talk) 22:11, 25 December 2010 (UTC)
- My comment immediately above applies here. If someone wishes to change the template, they are most welcome to do so. But if no one is willing to do it sooner (which means such a need for the infobox hasn't come yet), then delete for now and recreate later. As a side note, I would support the current title, as opposed to "experimental reactor". Do you agree? If not, why? Rehman 02:59, 27 December 2010 (UTC)
- I honestly don't have a problem with the infobox as it is now. It is not redundant with the power station infobox. I've attempted to address your concern about the technical info being rare; 7 of the 8 articles using this template now have meaningful amounts of information. As far as it being useless, that's a matter of opinion. As a former operator at the MITR I think the fields add valuable information to an article. Sho Uemura (talk) 15:09, 27 December 2010 (UTC)
- Sorry, I didn't respond to your question. I would prefer a rename, just to set this template apart from {{Infobox power station}}. This template is not relevant for power reactors. If people want power station articles to have information about their cores, they can add that to the power station template. I would prefer "Infobox research reactor" as the name, since research reactor is the corresponding Wikipedia article name. Sho Uemura (talk) 15:17, 27 December 2010 (UTC)
- If you think this template should be used only for research reactors (and not for reactors for commercial power generation), then I support you in keeping this. My personal opinion though, it to use the current title, and mention its purpose in the template documentation. But that could be discussed separately; template talk maybe? Rehman 15:29, 27 December 2010 (UTC)
- Yes, that's fine. Sho Uemura (talk) 17:38, 27 December 2010 (UTC)
- Template:Governor box (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
An interesting idea, to create a succession box for governors which will automatically create the link to [[List of governors of STATE|governor of STATE]] based on some pagesize logic. However, in the end, I don't think it saves much over using {{succession box}}. It was only being used on two articles, George W. Bush and Ann Richards, where I replaced it with the more generic box. Plastikspork ―Œ(talk) 21:54, 5 December 2010 (UTC)
- Thanks. I initially had patterned it after Template:U.S. Senator box, Template:USRepSuccessionBox. ―cobaltcigs 22:03, 5 December 2010 (UTC)
- Comment if kept, it should be renamed to {{US governor box}} per the US Senator box, as there are governors outside the US as well. 65.94.47.218 (talk) 06:42, 6 December 2010 (UTC)
- The latter concern is correct, but the {{{state}}} parameter need not be the name of a U.S. state necessarily. In fact one could generalize it for any at-large “Foo of Bar” position where Foo of Bar or List of Foos of Bar, but not necessarily both, are likely to exist as proper articles.
- Actually I think a more streamlined long-term approach to succession templates would be to store the succession data for the role or distinction in question within one central template for each, creatable by pasting a manipulated version of the wiki-table markup from which it is derived. Such a template could choose which node to display by combining {{PAGENAME}} with a {{#switch:}} statement and perhaps other available technologies. Keeping the information in one easily inspected place would help avoid factual/continuity errors, formatting idiosyncrasies, etc, and may be of particular interest in cases where we know the intervals but not enough other details to write a stub that won’t be deleted on sight. That’s another matter altogether I know, though not unworth saving for a rainy night. ―cobaltcigs 01:29, 7 December 2010 (UTC)
- Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, JPG-GR (talk) 06:58, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
- Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Plastikspork ―Œ(talk) 01:23, 23 December 2010 (UTC)
- Keep I agree we need to do something to improve the presentation of succession boxes, which --however useful -- seem too prominent in the articles and might be made both less glaring in color and more compact in organization. However, the approach in the present templates seems an interesting step forward, and should not be deleted until we have a chance to think out something better. Cobaltcigs' suggestion might be a good approach to increased standardization & functionality. ( the rename suggestion is of course correct. ) DGG ( talk ) 18:02, 26 December 2010 (UTC)
- Delete Multiplely redundant. It is redundant with general succession box templates. In addition, most states have templates listing all governors in sequential order. E.g., {{Governors of Texas}}.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 16:49, 1 January 2011 (UTC)