Talk:Goths

Problem with lede

In the intro the Scandinavian connection cannot be reduced to a mention of Jordanes and his unrelibility. To honest with the readers we need to show that we are aware of other sources of information that point to a Scandinavian origin, or at least a Scandinavian origin tradition.

• Mausoleum of Theodoric, which appears to have been consciously decorated in a contemporary Scandinavian style so as to point to a living Gothic tradition of Scandinavian descent.
• Polish archaeology (e.g. Scandinavian burial customs)
• archaeogenetics (as recently published in Nature)
• linguistics (certain shared traits between Gothic and Old Norse in general and Old Gutnish in particular)
• Onamastics (Goths/Gutes/Geats, etc.)

This article is not restricted to historiography, and should not reduce the possible Scandinavian origin to a single source. This may look disengenuous to informed readers.-Berig (talk) 07:06, 25 March 2020 (UTC)

Hi Berig, I am open to learn new things. I can only report what I have read so far:

• Many scholars say that there never would have been efforts to find Scandinavian links in other types of evidence if it had not been for Jordanes. I have to take them seriously on that because I don't think I have found any source which disagrees with that. Do you know any?
• Polish archaeology has shown a cultural connection between the Goths and the south Baltic, but the connection to Scandinavia is more tenuous? There are of course shared traits between all the cultures around the Baltic, but I have not seen any consensus of any which show a direction which has to come from Scandinavia to the Vistula? Can you mention any sources?
• Genetics. I looked at the sources in our article and that is extremely tenuous evidence where our wording distorts the weaker wording in that report on very limited data. (There is also a bigger concern on WP about the use of individual reports of raw data like this.) Which source are you thinking of in Nature?
• Linguistics. The way I understand the field, this line of argument has not gained much consensus? Again, can you bring some new sourcing?
• Onomastics. This is now mentioned in the article. As noted in some of the authorities such as RGA this evidence does not give any indication of any specific direction of movement. Only Jordanes clearly mentions such a direction, and I keep seeing that pointed out.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 08:36, 25 March 2020 (UTC)

The Mausoleum of Theodoric was decorated in a Scandinavian style? How? It looks like a pretty standard late Roman/early Byzantine structure to me. What recent art historian makes such a claim? The UNESCO document says its construction may derive from Syrian influences [1]. New theory about the origin of the Goths?--Ermenrich (talk) 19:52, 2 April 2020 (UTC)

North Germanic (whence Old Norse) and Gothic do not form a single clade per current linguistic consensus. Old Norse is more closely related to West Germanic languages, with which it forms a single clade (Northwest Germanic). The only major shared innovation often mentioned when discussing possible links between Gothic and Old Norse is Verschärfung, but these processes are realized differently in both languages and likely arose independently. For the most part, similarities between the two languages not shared by West-Germanic represent shared retentions, not shared innovations. — Mnemosientje (t · c) 12:06, 3 April 2020 (UTC)

"consciously decorated in a contemporary Scandinavian style" - did they get it from Ikea or what? Where in Scandinavia is there anything at all like the Mausoleum of Theodoric, which has hardly any decoration at all? Why, if the Scandinavian origin claim is mainstream at all, does the 2018 Oxford Dictionary of Late Antiquity make not a mention of Scandinavia anywhere in its entry on the Goths, which describes them as Germanic people first attested in the Baltic area in the 2nd century AD? GPinkerton (talk) 04:21, 23 April 2020 (UTC)

Current scholarship has evolved quickly and this article is not in sync. Goths are not Germanic. Their homeland was no where near Germany nor did the Germanic language exist when the Goths are first attested to in the archaeological record. Their eastern most area was Ukraine/Crimea, and their westernmost portion was in Romania. Not Germany. Way before Teutonic languages are a significant group. They were called Scythians by Greek and Roman writers. These are the Goths who invaded Roman territory. QueenofRods (talk) 23:20, 3 September 2020 (UTC)

Well Germanic language did already exist, but more to the point some scholars still call Goths Germanic because they are Germanic-speaking, while others insist we should avoid that. Both points are respected in publications by experts. That is the challenge we face in getting the wording right on this article. Does that make sense? Do you have any concrete proposals?--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 10:23, 4 September 2020 (UTC)

minor edit requests on section headings and "See" templates

Any concerns with these minor house-keeping proposals? Can someone either do them or give a clear go ahead?

3.1 Jordanes and Scandza -> Add "See" (or See also) template linking to Scandza

3.2 Vistula region evidence [No proposal yet, but I hope to make a Gutones article soon.]

3.3 Movement towards the Black Sea -> Move "See also" for Oium here from Co-existence with the Roman Empire.

4.1 Early raids on the Roman Empire -> Add (3rd century) to section title or similar to show chronological logic.

Also consider whether the See "Gothic Wars" template should be refined to one of the sub-articles, or moved to the History section heading.

4.2 Co-existence with the Roman Empire -> Add (300-375) or similar to show chronological logic.

4.3 Arrival of the Huns -> Add (about 375).

4.4 The Gothic War -> Add (376–382).--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 13:59, 7 May 2020 (UTC)

Can I assume no opposition to these minor and logical proposals?--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 08:00, 10 May 2020 (UTC)

Done. Hopefully no concerns with that.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 09:05, 12 May 2020 (UTC)

New article Gutones

After suggesting it several times here I have finally made it. It is clearly justified as Germanic peoples with much less notability have articles, including the Gutes and Gauts. The article implies some tweaking to links etc on this article which I can not do. It also should eventually help reduce the size or detail of those introductory sections more.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 15:25, 7 May 2020 (UTC)

Disputed link to Scandinavia, the imperative of major publishing houses concerning "History"

The Cernjachov culture of the later 3rd and 4th cents. AD beside the Black Sea, and the Polish and Byelorussian Wielbark cultures of the 1st–3rd. cents. ad, provide evidence of a Gothic migration down the Vistula to the Black Sea, but no clear trail leads to Scandinavia.":

What a bunch of nonsense. In the current year, we can now see the spread of the DNA matching the Sámi people from Scandinavia to essentially everywhere the tribes that became known as the Germanics went; but I guess none of that matters when the noble Peter Heather " reliable source" enlightened one speaks on behalf of the major publishing houses that pay him to say whatever it is that Peter Heather has himself determined to be "true" (after hearing the same thing from the spokespeople for truth before him, sponsored by the same major publishing houses). It's hilarious how careful he is to check all the right boxes, though, even calling the cultures in modern-day Poland (and Belarus) "Polish" (and Bylorussian"). Anyone with a grasp of history knows that the people in the vicinity of that region never would have considered themselves Poles by any means at that time in history, nor did Poland even exist. But of course that is just a "part 2" to the sort of things a "reliable" source historian is paid to say (lest he forfeit his check from his mainstream publisher and risk being on the street without a job in academia). Why is the golden rule of history 'thou must say whatever it is that happens to buck a narrative that the National Socialists championed'? It's so predictable. "What? The Nazis were interested in the link between Scandinavia and the Germanics and glamorized Northern symbols? We must deny any link!" "What? The Nazis took an interest what Europe might have looked like before the Great Migrations and emphasized that Germanic people settled as far as the Black Sea and linguistic and civilizational borders were indefinite and uncertain? We must say Europe never looked like that, otherwise we concede to one of the arguments as to what Hitler was doing and that would weaken our position that he wanted to conquer and dominate everything everywhere and every word from his mouth was a lie, especially that about the Jews and their control over things!" You people are psychotic. And yet you are the descendants of the same people who laughed when the Nazis went with pick and shovel to the Far East, fully aware that the Northern peoples may have originally come from there, too. You people who hawk Wikipedia are not historians for truth, you are negationists who parrot whatever the major publishing houses and your self-proclaimed "reliable sources" tell you. SHAME ON YOU.--Stopyourwhitewash (talk) 20:09, 20 September 2020 (UTC)

There are no doubt good reasons to be careful and you'll see that editors of this article have not lacked energy in criticizing each other. On the other hand quite often the true difficulty is simply in finding a good wording that is both readable and realistic. Whatever the case is here, perhaps you can offer wording change suggestions? To be honest I can't fully understand you. There seems to be a lot between the lines in your post. But trying to keep it straightforward:

• In historical articles we sometimes use the term Poland in a geographical sense: "what is now called Poland". If we are not making it clear that this is what was intended in some place, we should tweak it. (I presume Heather would say something similar but we are not answering for him, and this article is not only based on him.) Can you specify any such case?
• Perhaps you will be surprised to know that not everything the Nazis believed about history was correct. Clearly they might have been right about some things though. I guess. But anyway indeed Wikipedia just summarizes what the currently accepted experts say. It is a simple and doable mission for a massive "anyone can edit" wiki. I believe there have been many attempts to make wikis which go beyond such goals and have articles that try to be ahead of the curve, written only by experts. They always fail, and I'm confident they'll continue to, but if that is your preferred model please go pursue it. It is, quite honestly, very unlikely you'll get this whole wiki to change direction 180 degrees based on posts like the above. Indeed, I suppose you will have trouble convincing anyone of anything with that particular style of writing. --Andrew Lancaster (talk) 22:10, 20 September 2020 (UTC)

Andrew is too polite. This hateful screed reeks of a conspiracy theory-driven racist agenda and is not the sort of commentary that will change anyone's mind, nor do I believe it is intended to. It's bad enough that the single-purpose account sarcastically fabricates quotes to place in the mouths of WP contributors, but the bit he makes up concerning Hitler really gives away the game: "We must say Europe never looked like that, otherwise we concede to one of the arguments as to what Hitler was doing and that would weaken our position that he wanted to conquer and dominate everything everywhere and every word from his mouth was a lie, especially that about the Jews and their control over things!" This rant is clearly anti-Semitic hate speech and has no place in civilized discussion. Carlstak (talk)

Intro

I sincerely hope that this article isn't about American politics, per above. What I react mostly to is the idea that the Scandinavian origin hinges only on the credibility of Jordanes in the intro. I think it should be more in line with this more scholarly and neutral approach:

Nevertheless, that these explanations cannot be used to confirm the historicity of the origin myth does not mean that the Goths and many others did not originate from Scandinavia. Several independent, unrelated, pieces of evidence, both philogical and archaeological,⁴⁵ indicate that there might be a grain of historical truth in these stories. If Scandza is a literary motif, it might also reflect some long-gone historical reality,⁴⁶ at least for the Goths, the Lombards, and the Anglo-Saxons, and perhaps even for groups like the Heruli, the Vandals and the Burgundians too. Several of the groups were tied up with the Nordic regions.⁴⁷ Over the generations, the origin myths would have been handed down and recreated in a multitude of ritual contexts, associated with the social reproduction of the people and the warrior kings' sacred position. (in Hedeager, Lotte. 2003:27-28. Rituals of Power From Late Antiquity to the Early Middle Ages Series: Transformation of the Roman World, Volume: 8 Editors: Frans Theuws and Janet Nelson)

If RS don't consider it to hinge solely on Jordanes' credibility, neither can we as WP editors, and I really really hope that this article is not considered to be a tool in American identity politics, because then all hope is probably lost for this article and the POV tag may have to stay in place as long as that debate lasts.--Berig (talk) 07:02, 21 March 2021 (UTC)

Much of this article, including the lead, has been written by me, and there is certainly room for improvement. Thanks for making this clear, Berig. I have made a proposal for fixing these issues at User:Krakkos/sandbox/Goths (see this diff for exact changes). The proposal seeks to make the structure of the article more encyclopedic, to remove duplication, and to present a more balanced and coherent account of Gothic origins. Please let me know if your consider it an improvement. Krakkos (talk) 16:16, 21 March 2021 (UTC)

It looks fine, but I am curious about why Jordanes has to be attributed here as an inventor in what looks like he proclaimed it "said". Encyclopedia Britannica calls it their own legend and often information from a medieval scholars are called "legends" and "traditions". I don't think it is very controversial to call it their own tradition. Maybe you know that Theodoric's mausoleum was decorated with a frieze in a pattern that otherwise is only found on ornaments from 5th and 6th century Scandinavia, possibly as a reference to their traditional origins in Scandinavia. I added it not long ago with a reference in the article Theodoric the Great[2]. Adding that it was their own tradition, or may have been their own tradition, doesn't hurt anyone here. You should be able to find references for it. I also wonder if it is WP:DUE to cite only dissimilarities between East and North Germanic. There are words that Gothic had in common with the Gotlandic dialect of Old Norse (lamb, as the word for "sheep", and lukarn, IIRC). Also it could be worth mentioning new theories such as the Goths having originated in a trading network across the Baltic Sea, such as the one that the Gotlanders kept maintaing until they were replaced by the Hansa, or the theory of charismatic clans.--Berig (talk) 17:37, 21 March 2021 (UTC)

Thanks for the feedback. I have now made an attempt at adding the suggested improvements to the article. Regarding Jordanes, there are several historians who disagree very intensely with the idea that his account on Gothic origins was based on any Gothic material. Though this appears to be a minority viewpoint, i think we have to include these views in the article. Appropriately balancing these opposing viewpoints while simultaneously making the article readable is not an easy task, but i have made an attempt. Details on the views of various historians, such as Peter Heather, Herwig Wolfram, Walter Goffart and Wolf Liebeschuetz, are included in the footnotes. Feel free to let me know what you think. Krakkos (talk) 19:13, 21 March 2021 (UTC)

I have now made another attempt at addressing your concerns, particularly your suggestions on how we should approach Jordanes. Feel free to let me know what you think about the changes. Krakkos (talk) 23:37, 21 March 2021 (UTC)

It is considerably better now. I will read it more closely later today, but I doubt that there will be any major concerns from my side.--Berig (talk) 10:30, 22 March 2021 (UTC)

I would like to bring up the "classification" section. This section should deal with how modern scholars classify the Goths. How Romans vaguely generalized, missidentified and categorized distant and exotic nations is more anecdotal and belongs in a historiography section. Otherwise, I think it looks fine now, and considerably more balanced.--Berig (talk) 14:49, 22 March 2021 (UTC)

PS, or, it should at least give prominence to modern scholarship and tell the reader about that first. Then, the classification of classical authors can be added as a curiosity.--Berig (talk) 15:01, 22 March 2021 (UTC)

Thanks for the feedback. I have made an attempt at modifying the "classification" in accordance with your suggestions. The classification by classical authors of the Goths as Getae or Scythians isn't taken seriously by any scholars, so i guess you are right that that we should not be giving that too much weight. Feel free to let me know what you think about the modification. Krakkos (talk) 16:10, 22 March 2021 (UTC)

I won't bother you with minor quibbles. I have removed the tag. Thanks for your great work!--Berig (talk) 16:16, 22 March 2021 (UTC)

Hi Berig. Coming late to the discussion, but some small remarks:

• Encyclopedia Brittanica is not really a strong source given how hard we worked to looked for the best sourcing on this article in the past. To cut a long story short, the Scandinavia story of Jordanes is not seen as a reliable source by the experts on Jordanes. Peter Heather is a key source on this point. Of course that does not mean the Jordanes narrative should not be mentioned or anything like that. Indeed, obviously some scholars (mainly Scandinavians according to one published remark) still see it as reflecting some reality, but I just want to say that I agree with the need for some caution about balance. We don't want to be treating Heather as "fringe". I think Krakkos and you have also agreed.
• One practical suggestion: we should be careful about telling our readers Jordanes was simply a "Gothic" writer. He identified as Gothic, but he was writing as a Romanized person, long after the Goths had mainly dispersed far from their original concentrated settlements in Roman territory. We should make sure that we don't give the wrong impression - for example that he was a near contemporary of events.
• I noticed your remark about the frieze. I noticed you posted one source so far (Näsman). Is that the source which first made the proposal, or does this position have a bigger literature which can show us the "field" accepting/rejecting/debating it? It is clearly interesting, but we should work out what sources exist in order to balance anything we write about that.
• FWIW, Walter Pohl who is clearly one of the main scholarly experts on Germanic peoples today, does not include Goths as a Germanic people in his writing. His reference work on the Germanic Peoples, for example, does not cover them. He covers them elsewhere, and argues pro-actively for this categorization. He is clearly not a member of Goffart's school, but rather the senior active representative of Wolfram's more conservative school (in as far as we may speak of "schools"). I just say this to make sure you realize that not classifying the Goths as Germanic (except in the linguistic sense) is not a fringe position. More generally, modern academics no longer accept the straightforward equation of linguistic classifications and ethnic classifications, as I'm sure you realize, and so Pohl's decision is quite consistent with that.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 09:30, 23 March 2021 (UTC)

The idea that we somehow have to choose or balance between the so-called Vienna and Toronto schools of historians are a false dilemma. There are plenty of prominent historians, such as Peter Heather and Wolf Liebeschuetz, who disagree with those schools on fundamental points. The views of philologists and archaeologists are perhaps even more relevant for the question of Gothic origins than those of historians, and must also be taken into account. In a 2018 work summarizing the historical, archaeological and linguistic evidence on Gothic origins, Robert D. Fulk notes that "the considerable majority of scholars" consider Jordanes' account on Gothic origins in Scandinavia and Poland to be "trustworthy at least in general outline". Wikipedia articles should prioritize and be structured around the majority views. We should of course include prominent minority viewpoints as well (which this article already does), but there is a limit to how much weight we can give them without the early part of this article degenerating into an exegesis on the Getica. Such an exegesis is better suited at Jordanes, Getica and Origin stories of the Goths. Krakkos (talk) 12:48, 23 March 2021 (UTC)

I did not say that we are balancing only those two schools, did I? I only mentioned Goffart in order to point out that this article is not much influenced by him or his school at the moment. But clearly, according to numerous comments by you, Heather and Wolfram are two of the most respected sources on the the topic of Gothic origins. Neither believes that Jordanes is literally correct about a physical migration from Scandinavia. In any case, what edit are we arguing about? I was explaining what the best-known recent historians and philologists say, because it seemed Berig might not be aware of it. I did not propose any specific edit, unless you could being careful not to simply call Jordanes a Goth in any way which implies he was actually a near-contemporary of their migrations.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 13:12, 23 March 2021 (UTC)

Berig I just noticed that the topic of this frieze was brought up by you before (March and April 2020, above) and Ermenrich and GPinkerton had doubts also. It seems important to get some sourcing rationales on record because in essence you are arguing this is a "game changer" piece of evidence, but it does not seem to be well-known among in the international community yet?--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 15:32, 23 March 2021 (UTC)

It was certainly my impression from grad school here in the last ten years that Scandinavian origins are highly poo-pooed at least in certain circles. If you are mostly around scholars who doubt Scandinavian origins, as I seem to have been, it's definitely intimated to you that it's the majority opinion among historians nowadays. My specialty, however, is High and Late medieval German literature, so I wouldn't claim to known the lay of the land as far scholarly consensus. Genetics research seems to be revising a lot of the early skepticism about large migrations being something possible at least. I wouldn't say this article has been effected by American politics, but like everything Germanic it's very much in the shadow of the Nazis and white supremacy. It's not surprising that people would want to reject a central narrative that they latched onto to, namely migrating Germans conquering Europe.--Ermenrich (talk) 15:56, 23 March 2021 (UTC)

Ermenrich, also remember that the Cold War era was dominated by Immobilism. Andrew, you have to write your posts in a much more concise way. I think we all need time to process what you write above, before we can answer you properly, so I will have to put my answer on hold, for now. May I ask you a personal question? Why you really find a possible the connection between the Goths and Scandinavia problematic? Is it ideological? You seem to be so very passionate about it that there must be something deeper than the mere intellectual stimulation of it.--Berig (talk) 15:59, 23 March 2021 (UTC)