Talk:Julian Assange

Embassy headings

I don't see the point of having so many headings in this portion of the article. Many of the headings are followed by a single short paragraph. It is also illogical to have a section headed "Ecuadorian embassy period" which doesn't actually cover the entire period.--Jack Upland (talk) 00:27, 27 May 2021 (UTC)

I don't have strong feelings about "Ecuadorian embassy period", though this was my change. I thought that what was there before was a little awkward and overly long for a header. As far as I am concerned, feel free to change it to something else. I am doing something else right now, but as I recall I also thought there might be too many headers. Elinruby (talk) 16:55, 29 May 2021 (UTC)

ah, are you talking about the "Early years" section? I kind of agree, but this is something I wanted to run by you guys. I felt the section was basically a timeline and sort of a salad of procreation and policy positions and immigration bureaucracy. It's the simplest basis of organization but not necessarily the best one for this topic. What do you guys think of grouping by theme rather than chronology? Those headers were really there to help me sort the paragraphs out, and I don't insist on this particular architecture, but wanted to post here before making major structural changes to an article that seems rather contentious. LMK Elinruby (talk) 17:26, 29 May 2021 (UTC)

for example, the early years header could go away right now, for a start Elinruby (talk) 17:27, 29 May 2021 (UTC)

The "Early years" heading was put there by me to parallel the "Later years" heading, which you seem to be ignoring. The reason to divide it into early years and later years (however entitled) is because of the 2016 US election section. We therefore have material before the election and then material after the election. Chronological order is recommended by the Manual of Style for Biographies (MOS:BIO), is basically the way the article has been constructed over time, and is easy to follow. The problem with "theme" is that it is largely arbitrary. You seem to have lumped various things together in order to make categories. Any other editor would probably come up with a different arrangement. I think abandoning chronological order will get confusing. If we are just listing "WikiLeaks publishing", I think that belongs on the page List of material published by WikiLeaks.--Jack Upland (talk) 23:24, 29 May 2021 (UTC)

Actually that might work. One question I have is to what extent Assange=Wikilinks. My impression is not always. I'd be ok with summarizing here and taking the detail there. I would have to look the MOS section up, but I've copy-edited a boatload of bios and I have yet to see one that intersperses affairs and personal status issues throughout a list of works. Thinking here of Marc Chagall and all the other painters who had to flee Paris when the Nazis arrived. For people with a well-defined career path chronology is probably the way to go, I agree, but putting procreation in the same section as an impact on a war or helping a whistleblower to flee kinda trivializes them both, no? It seems to me it turns narrative into a laundry list. Elinruby (talk) 02:11, 30 May 2021 (UTC)

Leave it for a day or two? I will come back to this Elinruby (talk) 02:12, 30 May 2021 (UTC)

By the way, in relation to procreation, there is a section on "Children" at the end of the article.--Jack Upland (talk) 05:39, 30 May 2021 (UTC)

So maybe move that bit there? I am thinking I should draftify a copy of this and work on it to the side for a minute, the better to demonstrate what I am suggesting. I am not ignoring the later years section; I stopped to discuss. Currently distracted by something but will get to this soon. I personally am fine with you putting all of the children together, if you want to do that. Elinruby (talk) 06:25, 30 May 2021 (UTC)

Can you explain what your editing is design to do and what problems you are trying to solve?--Jack Upland (talk) 20:23, 30 May 2021 (UTC)

Easier to just demo it elsewhere. I have found it a waste of time to argue with those determined to misunderstand. As far as I can tell you have been trying really hard to have an argument, here and on my talk page. But. Preoccupied right now with something else Elinruby (talk) 04:17, 31 May 2021 (UTC)

Agree with you to move the non-bio info and reorg a bit. Jtbobwaysf (talk) 21:37, 1 June 2021 (UTC)

I am past the couple days I asked for, so update on this: when I tried to edit a copy of the page in my sandbox, I got very very lagged and had to quit. It is tough to cut and paste in those circumstances. I had identified a couple of non-critical things in the lede, but I should probably start afresh in some other editor when I come back to this. Or, deleting old stuff from the sandbox might possibly work. However, in any case, I have gotten sucked into a breaking news story with a lot of upset new editors, and as an experienced editor who has already somewhat researched the topic (but not the article) I should probably prioritize that over this. I will also be tied up in real life for a couple of days. I will try to further what I started here with the sub-headings around all that, but welcome any other help or discussion meanwhile.

I think we may have consensus for moving the birth of the child from the early embassy section to the section on children, see @Jack Upland: comment above. In broad strokes, what I was wanting to suggest was a structure more along the lines of bio, WikiLeaks, importance (1st Amendment vs national security, etc), then a summary of the legal situation, then further down a more chronological account of events, possibly as a separate timeline. That's also over-simplified, but since I won't we working on this for several more days at least, that's the heart of it.

The most important MoS quibble about the lede is that the link to Collateral Damage on YouTube should be in External links, and replaced in the lede with a secondary reference. Also, someone should research the version -- it seems that there are several, some with more editorial comment than others. YouTube is of course usually discouraged, but imho this is a good case for including it; in External Links however. Later Elinruby (talk) 09:45, 3 June 2021 (UTC)

I think any discussion of the embassy period has to mention he had children at that time.--Jack Upland (talk) 21:45, 3 June 2021 (UTC)

Why? Elinruby (talk) 09:50, 12 June 2021 (UTC)

Because it is one of the most major events in the period.--Jack Upland (talk) 21:10, 21 June 2021 (UTC)

Asylum

Jack Upland has repeatedly objected to my use of the word "asylum" in the article headings, stating that the use of this word would not be neutral. However, the granting of Asylum is merely a fact. It is not neutral to omit the term from the article headings when this is one of the most momentous events of Assange's life, effectively defining his most recent decade.

If there's no consensus here on the talk page about using the term in the headings, I'd like to launch an RfC:

Should we change the article heading "Ecuadorian embassy period" to "Political asylum," and the subheading "Entering the embassy" to "Entering the Ecuadorian embassy" (Yes or No)?

If there's consensus here to make this change, we don't need an RfC. -Darouet (talk) 16:42, 3 June 2021 (UTC)

It is also a fact that he skipped bail. The question is what heading to use. (And please don't confuse this with the issue of the subheadings).--Jack Upland (talk) 21:42, 3 June 2021 (UTC)

I think Ecuadorian embassy period -> Asylum is an improvement. On the other hand, I dislike "entering the embassy" simply because it does not really convey that he not only entered, he stayed. Open to suggestions. Elinruby (talk) 09:49, 12 June 2021 (UTC)

Yes - Seems to me a good compromise would be keep the main heading title “Ecuadorian embassy period” but rename the first subsection “Asylum”. This gives due weight to a central issue without using the term “political asylum” which some here seem unhappy with. Prunesqualor billets_doux 14:49, 18 July 2021 (UTC)

Naming the first subsection "Asylum" would be confusing because he was under asylum the whole period. "Entering the embassy" describes exactly what the subject of the first subsection is, which is more than getting asylum. It is patently obvious he stayed in the embassy. "Entering the embassy" does not imply it was temporary.--Jack Upland (talk) 07:53, 21 July 2021 (UTC)

Omit "asylum" SPECIFICO talk 19:16, 18 July 2021 (UTC)

I agree.Slatersteven (talk) 19:35, 18 July 2021 (UTC)

Asylum is a central issue in this phase of Assange’s life and IMO deserves at least a sub heading. To dismiss the suggestion so curtly seems a little inappropriate. Prunesqualor billets_doux 21:14, 18 July 2021 (UTC)

Skipping bail is a central issue in this phase of his life. It is the reason he couldn't leave the embassy for fearing of being arrested. It is the reason that he served a year in prison and the reason he continues to be denied bail. Not every issue needs a heading. "Ecuadorian embassy period" sums up this phase perfectly well. It is neutral as it doesn't favour either the British or Ecuadorian governments' legal position.--Jack Upland (talk) 07:57, 21 July 2021 (UTC)

According to Assange he sought asylum, not because he wanted to avoid arrest for skipping bail (which usually involves a short sentence, if any) but to avoid extradition to Sweden and then on to the U.S. where there was talk of very long sentences or worse. Subsequent events tend to support Assange’s claim on this. Prunesqualor billets_doux 09:18, 21 July 2021 (UTC)

What? Of course, he didn't seek asylum to avoid arrest for skipping bail!!! It was his decision to avoid extradition to Sweden that led to him skipping bail!!! This is a seriously twisted take on events.--Jack Upland (talk) 09:32, 21 July 2021 (UTC)

Your wording ie: “Skipping bail is a central issue in this phase of his life. It is the reason he couldn't leave the embassy for fearing of being arrested” was perhaps a little vague – it seemed to imply you thought the act of skipping bail was the reason behind his asylum request. Anyway I’m not sure that two sets of rather angry looking three exclamation marks where warranted. Anyway we seem to have had a misunderstanding - back to the issue: “Skipping bail” was merely part of a complex set of events which resulted in Assange seeking asylum – as such I personally don’t see it demands a sub heading but would not object strongly if someone thought such an arrangement could be worded to clarify/focus the narrative. I think the case for an “Asylum” sub heading is stronger as Assange spent several years under the protection of a form of asylum – in that sense it defined this stage of his life in contrast to the preceding period where he was free but subject to the law – and the following phase where he has been/is not free and subject to law. Prunesqualor billets_doux 21:37, 21 July 2021 (UTC)

The exclamation marks were because it was such a bizarre proposition. The best term for that phase in his life is "Ecuadorian embassy period" (or something similar). "Asylum" implies that he was a refugee from political persecution. That is in the eye of the beholder. We now know there was no US indictment when he entered the embassy (that didn't happen till 2018). He was facing extradition to Sweden regarding allegations by two women. Political persecution? The Ecuadorian government may have thought he deserved asylum, but many more did not. The British government did not accept the grant of asylum, and therefore he was not able to travel to Ecuador and take up asylum there as he had intended. The "asylum" that he had was therefore not universally accepted — in fact, not accepted in the country where he was — and was of a very limited form. He could stay in the embassy as long as the British and Ecuadorian governments agreed to let him stay there. As I said earlier, he did not receive "territorial asylum" because he never never reached Ecuador. Staying in the embassy, he received "diplomatic asylum" which is controversial, unpredicatable, and not generally recognised by international law.[1][2] "Asylum" is not a neutral term and is potentially misleading. On the other hand, "Ecuadorian embassy period" captures exactly what happened and doesn't imply that Ecuador was wrong to offer him asylum or that the British government was wrong to try to arrest him. It is simply factual, and that's the way we ought to stay.--Jack Upland (talk) 08:29, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

I accept the “Ecuadorian embassy period” as a valid title, and said so earlier in this debate/section (fourth contribution I think). There I suggested “Asylum” as a sub-heading because of its sheer significance. Hopefully we can agree that the word “asylum” cannot be avoided when dealing with this period? Unless you are proposing to banish the term completely from the article then questions about what the word implies become somewhat moot ie it’s the significance not the validity of the term that is in question here. The use of the word “Asylum” as a sub-title is not an acknowledgment that Assange necessarily qualified for it – that it seems to me is a debate for elsewhere – it is about recognising the key significance of the concept in the Assange story at this time (be you for or against) which surly warrants at least a sub-heading. Prunesqualor billets_doux 09:37, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

"Asylum" appears 14 times in the article. I don't think there is any subsection in the article that is all about "asylum", but if there is I have no objection to it being described as such.--Jack Upland (talk) 09:46, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

Thanks, that seems a very reasonable approach. I, and hopefully others, can look into that as a way forward. Prunesqualor billets_doux 09:59, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

I oppose the use of "asylum". SPECIFICO talk 13:01, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

SPECIFICO Perhaps you could give your reasons? Prunesqualor billets_doux 16:26, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

The WP:ONUS is on you for inclusion of that word. Asylum is a political refuge. That's not what he was hiding out for, just ordinary crime. Pretty simple. SPECIFICO talk 18:44, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

SPECIFICO Just to be clear - that word [asylum] is already included several times in this article. I have already given good reasons why it deserves to be used as at least a sub-title - the onus, I would suggest, is now on you to refute those reasons or accept them. You said “Asylum is a political refuge.” This statement is not correct: asylum means refuge from harm – you may choose to say, in Assange’s case, that the most serious harms he faced where from politically motivated quarters, or otherwise – but there is no doubting there were plenty of people who wanted him punished – he sought a place of protection from harm ie “asylum”. Terms like “Political Asylum” or “Diplomatic Asylum” have their own specialist legal/technical meanings – the world “asylum” on it’s own does not. So when you say “[Political Asylum’s] not what he was hiding out for, just ordinary crime.” You are inadvertently using a straw man argument (just to be clear, if repetitive, I’m arguing for the sub-title “Asylum” not “Political Asylum”). Prunesqualor billets_doux 08:44, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

I would completely oppose using "asylum" in an ambiguous or vague sense. Clearly, we are talking about "political asylum" here. The implication is that Assange was a refugee from political persecution.--Jack Upland (talk) 09:32, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

Any application of "asylum" in this article presents an absurd and misleading narrative -- one that Assange himself has gone to great lengths and lies to promote. WP is not here to promote the false narratives of a fugitive. SPECIFICO talk 11:56, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

SPECIFICO Given that Assange has been, for years, locked in a maximum security facility (along with some of the most dangerous people in the country); that he faces the real possibility of spending the rest of his life in similar conditions; that this situation was initiated, and continued by US government agencies, I cannot see how the narrative, that he faced an extremely grim future at the hands of the US system, can be denied. I think we are beholden to give living people the benefit of any doubts in their Wiki articles – you perhaps should bare that in mind. Prunesqualor billets_doux 12:46, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

Jack Upland Some of the key themes in Assange’s life and the way it was debated during that period, where questions like: “Should he have sought asylum?”or “Should he have been granted asylum?” Assange and his supporters claimed that if he had not been given “asylum” he would eventually face extradition to the US and potentially very severe treatment at the hands of federal agencies. The actions of the US State since then seem to bear out this claim. The word Asylum has it’s own meaning which is quit specific enough to be used as a subject heading (or sub-heading) there is nothing to prevent further clarification within the article regarding what kinds of Asylum the various actors thought they were dealing with. Prunesqualor billets_doux 13:07, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

Criminals tend to be imprisoned. Not by Wikipedia, but by the appurtenant jurisdictions. Any conjecture you may have about the US and what might happen if he were to be tried in the US is irrelevant here. SPECIFICO talk 14:43, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

SPECIFICO I responded to your statement “Any application of "asylum" in this article presents an absurd and misleading narrative -- one that Assange himself has gone to great lengths and lies to promote. WP is not here to promote the false narratives of a fugitive.” Subsequent events clearly demonstrate the political appetite, in some parts of the US establishment, to make an example of Assange, so that when he sought asylum, he seems to have assessed and expressed his predicament accurately ie he correctly assessed that he was in danger of harsh treatment. He did not go to “lengths and lies to promote” a “misleading narrative.” I said earlier that Wiki is obliged to give some benefit of the doubt to living people in it’s articles – so far from that, your assessments seem to betray an utter contempt, bordering on hatred, for the man. Prunesqualor billets_doux 16:59, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

No, we don't take the POV of article subjects. I believe this thread has long since exhausted any constructive purpose. I suggest you turn to other areas for article improvement. Perhaps trim the lengthy and redundant text on the UN volunteer "rapporteur" about Assange's health. SPECIFICO talk 17:32, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

We have rather drifted from the issue. Perhaps I could put some questions followed by what I consider to be accurate or reasonable answers:

1/ Did Assange seek “asylum”?: Yes.

2/ Did the Ecuadorian government offer him “asylum”?: Yes.

3/ Was the word “asylum” commonly used in connection with Assange during his time in the embassy?: Yes.

4/ Are people to this day still arguing about whether he should have been granted “asylum”: Yes.

The word “Asylum” links all of these issues and is worthy of at least a sub-heading, I see no reason to step down from that perfectly reasonable position. Prunesqualor billets_doux 18:22, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

Some editors seem to treat "asylum" as a trump card to be played to advantage. I think it should be used when appropriate, but I don't think it is appropriate in the existing headings.--Jack Upland (talk) 01:50, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

The accuracy of Assange's narrative has been raised several times. Let's see. He called the Swedish allegations a radical feminist conspiracy and said the women were lesbians. Not many people have endorsed this view. He claimed he faced US prosecution in 2012, but there was no US indictment until 2018. He claimed the US government would find it easier to extradite him from Sweden than from Britain. There seems to be no evidence for that. He repeatedly claimed that because WikiLeaks was a media organisation he was protected from prosecution. This has never stood up in court. He expected to be allowed to travel to Ecuador from London. This never happened. I accept that Assange sincerely believed at least some of this, but to say that it was "accurate" is nonsensical.--Jack Upland (talk) 02:46, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

Jack Upland I will try to address some of your points: You said “Some editors seem to treat "asylum" as a trump card to be played to advantage.” I don’t think it helpful to repeatedly use accusations of bias. Points should be dealt with on merit unless someone is being grossly unreasonable. Regarding Assange’s “reliability” I don’t wish to hang my case on this, because I don’t know what information he had available at the time – maybe his notion that agencies of the US state wanted him severely punished was just a lucky guess. You said “I think [asylum] should be used when appropriate, but I don't think it is appropriate in the existing headings.” If the word is ok to use repeatedly in the article and in several contexts, I don’t see why it can’t be used in a sub heading that pulls some of those contexts together. Perhaps now I could return to previous post where I: “put some questions followed by what I consider to be accurate or reasonable answers”. You have not addressed any of my four points/questions which, I suggest, demonstrate the central role of “asylum” in tying together several stands of the Assange narrative – and hence the aptness of the word in a subtitle (if not full title). Prunesqualor billets_doux 08:26, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

Do you have a concrete proposal for improving the article?--Jack Upland (talk) 09:29, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

I would suggest just swapping the current sub-heading “Entering the embassy” with “Asylum”. This works because four of the six Paragraphs in the sub-section already directly talk about - and use the word - “asylum”. Regarding the remaining two paragraphs (2 & 4) they both refer to events directly related to Assange’s bid for asylum. The material in that sub-section fits more consistently and neatly with the sub-heading “Asylum” than it does with the current sub-heading “Entering the embassy”. Prunesqualor billets_doux 16:55, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

That's already been rejected. SPECIFICO talk 16:58, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

SPECIFICO I believe you are mistaken – the previous suggestion was “Political Asylum”. For reasons gone into elsewhere (and brushed on in this thread) that was considered unacceptable by some editors. I’m proposing simply “Asylum” and have dealt above with the issues for which “Political Asylum” was rejected and how and why the lone word “Asylum” is different and less problematic. As I said in my last contribution: ““The material in that sub-section fits more consistently and neatly with the sub-heading “Asylum” than it does with the current sub-heading “Entering the embassy.”” If you re-read the article sub-section I suspect you will agree, but if not, I’m happy to debate the issue further. Prunesqualor billets_doux 18:20, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

Nobody agrees with you. You are shouting at the wind here. The article is not going to reflect your POV when you have no consensus. That's about it. SPECIFICO talk 19:49, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

The material in that sub-section fits more consistently and neatly with the sub-heading “Asylum” than it does with the current sub-heading “Entering the embassy”. I think the opposite is true. Only paragraphs 1 and 6 deal with Assange's asylum application in any detail. Assange made the decision to apply for asylum instead of "surrendering to the court" in order to be extradited to Sweden, hence breaching his bail conditions. The asylum bid and the failure to surrender are two different sides of the same decision, but they are conceptually different. The actions taken by the British state against Assange described in paragraphs 3 and 4 relate to his failure to surrender, not to his asylum application. As discussed recently, it wasn't illegal for Assange to apply for asylum. Paragraphs 2 and 5 are explanations for Assange's decision. They can equally be seen as explanations why he failed to surrender, as to why he applied for asylum. In my view, the heading "Entering the embassy" "neatly" sums up the contents of this section, because that is what the section is all about, including various repercussions of this step. The heading "Asylum", on the other hand, would gloss over the issue of his failure to surrender to the court. It would misrepresent the contents of the section. It would lend weight to the misconception that the British state was penalising Assange for seeking asylum. It would also suggest that Assange had achieved what he wanted and that he intended to be holed up in the embassy indefinitely. The overarching fact here is that he entered the embassy.--Jack Upland (talk) 05:05, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

Jack Upland . I’m not clear why you talk about the concept of “surrender” – I’ve not seen that proposed as an alternative title – If you wish to do so I’m happy to discuss it’s relative merits, but seems a poor contender. On other points: I don’t think that every single paragraph in a subsection has to deal “in detail” with what is in the subheading (I’d have to do a study, but suspect that would invalidate half the subheadings in Wiki). As for the existing subtitle: “entering the embassy”, only one sentence directly mentions “enter[ing] the embassy” and that’s talking about the police entering it, not Assange, none of the paragraphs deal with that activity “in any detail” so by you own reasoning “Entering the Embassy” is a dead loss. In other points you made, it seems to me you are conflating the terms “political asylum” and just “asylum”– every paragraph deals in some way with the latter (the suggested subtitle heading) and as I said four of the six use the word explicitly. Prunesqualor billets_doux 08:29, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

Firstly, you seem to be confused between the textual use of words and the content of the section. "Entering the embassy" describes the section. It is irrelevant that the prose of the section doesn't use the phrase. "Early life" never uses the terms "early" or "life"!!! As I said, you seem to think the word "asylum" is a trump card, and that the repetition of the word proves something. It doesn't. Secondly, no one has suggested "surrender" should be part of the heading. That is another red herring. Thirdly, if other headings are misleading, they should be fixed. Yet another red herring. Fourthly, it is clear in this context "asylum" means "political asylum".--Jack Upland (talk) 21:14, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

Your last point first. You said: “it is clear in this context "asylum" means "political asylum”. Yet, in comments made elsewhere on this page, you yourself talk about Assange’s status re. “Diplomatic Asylum” and “Territorial Asylum” as well as “Political Asylum”. On your: “confused between the textual use of words and the content of the section” – I think not: If a word is used repeatedly in a section of text then it is reasonable to assume there is significance to the subject being talked about (unless we are talking surreal poetry maybe) – there are whole branches of studies which analyse how frequently various words are used in various settings and draw conclusions from those stats. So yes, if the word Asylum is used repeatedly in the section I have no difficulty in claiming that adds to the case for it’s use as a title. However I have made a number of other cases in this thread (many of which you have not yet addressed). To those I would add that the phrase “Entering the Embassy”, in it’s most literal sense, describes just a moment in time – it is in no way an elegant description of a whole period/series of events. Asylum on the other hand describes a persistent state and relates to a raft of concepts related to Assange’s position at that time – I typed into Google “Asylum synonym” and in the first entry (dictionary.com) got:

“shelter, sanctuary, haven, refuge, mental hospital, preserve, hideaway, harbor, cover, port, safety, den, hole, hideout, security, retreat, institution, madhouse, sanatorium, ivory tower.”

Why it could be mistaken for a poem about Assange’s predicament at that time. Sorry but “Asylum” is just better. Prunesqualor billets_doux 23:38, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

Perhaps, "asylum" is not a trump card as I said, but a talismanic term to be sprinkled over the article while you conduct your druidic rituals and mutter your Icelandic surrealist poetry. It is clear there is no agreement about what "asylum" means in this context, no agreement about the function of headings in the article, no agreement what this article is actually about, and no agreement about the function of language in general. Given this, I can only hope you and the pixies live long and prosper and that the dolphins carry you to an affordable motel. All we have achieved in this conversation is that we both disagree with Darouet's original proposition.--Jack Upland (talk) 10:10, 26 July 2021 (UTC)

Jack Upland I don’t particularly “disagree with Darouet's original proposition”. My first contribution to this debate was an attempt at compromise. I remain open to input from other parties but it seems that you and I have reached an impasse for now. Prunesqualor billets_doux 07:12, 27 July 2021 (UTC)

You and Darouet have no consensus in favor of either "proposal." Quite the opposite. SPECIFICO talk 15:45, 27 July 2021 (UTC)

How about "Asylum in the Ecuadorian Embassy" (first heading); "Skipping bail" (second heading)? Without prejudice.--Jack Upland (talk) 22:36, 27 July 2021 (UTC)

No. Asylum in an embassy implies political asylum, which is just Assange's self-serving claim. SPECIFICO talk 01:42, 28 July 2021 (UTC)

SPECIFICO I accept that “Asylum”, in the context of this most recent suggestion, implies “Political Asylum” (though not exclusively). However the term “Political Asylum” already appears in the article and will almost certainly stay put. The question of whether a term happens to suit Assange’s interests is not the overriding concern; otherwise the terms like “sexual assault” would not appear in subheadings. Prunesqualor billets_doux 10:48, 29 July 2021 (UTC)

That is utterly unresponsive to the point I made above. "Asylum" is Assange's claim. Ecuador did not state it granted Assange political asylum. The article text does not say Ecuador granted political asylum. SPECIFICO talk 12:22, 29 July 2021 (UTC)

OK, on reflection I accept that the suggestion "Asylum in the Ecuadorian Embassy" is a poor option. I’ll stick with my short and simple “Asylum” as my nomination (I’ve explained why it’s less problematic above). If nobody else likes it/agrees I’ll just have to live with that (for now). Prunesqualor billets_doux 16:49, 29 July 2021 (UTC)

Good. You already know that nobody agrees with you. How about "refuge" "hideout" "avoiding arrest" -- much more descriptive. SPECIFICO talk 17:34, 29 July 2021 (UTC)

Re: 'Asylum' is Assange's claim. Ecuador did not state it granted Assange political asylum. The Ecuadorian government granted Assange asylum. In its official statement explaining why it granted Assange asylum, the Ecuadorian government repeatedly referred to political persecution. For example,

Thus, the Government of Ecuador believes that these arguments lend support to the fears of Julian Assange, and it believes that he may become a victim of political persecution, as a result of his dedicated defense of freedom of expression and freedom of press as well as his repudiation of the abuses of power in certain countries, and that these facts suggest that Mr. Assange could at any moment find himself in a situation likely to endanger life, safety or personal integrity. This fear has driven him to exercise the right to seek and receive asylum in the Embassy of Ecuador in the UK. (emphasis added)

Here's how the AP described this decision:

Aug. 16, 2012: Assange is granted political asylum by Ecuador.

I have no idea where SPECIFICO got the idea that Ecuador did not grant Assange asylum, or that it did not do so because of possible political persecution, but SPECIFICO is simply wrong here. The Ecuadorian government and countless news articles (just a few: BBC, NPR, WaPo) refer to Assange's asylum in the Ecuadorian embassy, so that's obviously how we should refer to it. -Thucydides411 (talk) 19:18, 29 July 2021 (UTC)

Thucydides411 I wonder if we might consider one of the suggestions SPECIFICO has just made? Namely: "refuge". Seems to me it has many of the advantages of “Asylum” regarding Assange’s predicament at that time. Hopefully, since it came from one of the main opponents of using “asylum” we might make progress – just a thought. Prunesqualor billets_doux 20:57, 29 July 2021 (UTC)

I would oppose that wording. It is simply a fact that Assange was granted political asylum in the embassy, and news articles consistently refer to Assange's "asylum" in the embassy. The argument being put forward above, that we should avoid using the word "asylum" because that might reflect positively on Assange, is just not grounded in any way in Wikipedia policy. -Thucydides411 (talk) 21:13, 29 July 2021 (UTC)

I too would rather use “Asylum” in the subheading and I dislike the current "Entering the embassy” but was getting nowhere with consensus. Prunesqualor billets_doux 21:26, 29 July 2021 (UTC)

"Asylum" is obviously the correct word, and those arguing otherwise have to provide a legitimate reason for not using the word. Saying it reflects positively on Assange is not a legitimate reason not to use the word, and outright denying that Assange received asylum is frankly bizarre. So unless some new, compelling argument is brought up, I think we should all agree to title the section something like "Asylum in the Ecuadorian Embassy". -Thucydides411 (talk) 22:06, 29 July 2021 (UTC)

Thucydides411 Yes, that works for me Prunesqualor billets_doux 22:29, 29 July 2021 (UTC)

Saying it reflects positively on Assange... Of course, nobody except Thuc has said such a thing. Since when is a rape indictment a political persecution? The weight of RS discussions of his refuge in the embassy do not describe it as political asylum. Refuge is descriptive and NPOV. Asylum is the narrative of interested parties. WP goes with NPOV. SPECIFICO talk 23:04, 29 July 2021 (UTC)

Asylum is factually what happened. If you have an issue with Ecuador's decision to grant Assange political asylum, take it up with Ecuador, but we can't change what happened because you disagree with Ecuador's reasoning. Ecuador granted political asylum, the media widely referred to it a such, and that's the word we should use. -Thucydides411 (talk) 07:39, 30 July 2021 (UTC)

I think "refuge" is a sensible compromise (for the first heading in question).--Jack Upland (talk) 08:11, 30 July 2021 (UTC)

Actually factually: Our job here is to inform readers with all degrees of prior knowledge or understanding. Asylum is a loaded word that will mislead a substantial proportion of readers among all the people of Earth. Refuge is NPOV and does not adopt the dubious and/or false POV that Assange is a political prisoner -- contrary to the beliefs of some editors here (see recently added film link on article page). SPECIFICO talk 11:26, 30 July 2021 (UTC)

@Jack Upland: Compromise between what two positions? Assange was granted political asylum in the Ecuadorian embassy. That's simply a fact. Neither you nor anyone else has yet given a reasonable argument as to why we should avoid the word "asylum". If I've understood your argument, you're saying that the word reflects positively on Assange, and should therefore be avoided. Since when is it our job to censor facts that might reflect positively on the subject of a BLP? SPECIFICO, meanwhile, has denied that Assange even was granted asylum, despite the fact that - you know - he was granted asylum. I'm sorry, but "asylum" is the correct word, and the one that's used widely in the press and by the Ecuadorian government itself. -Thucydides411 (talk) 12:38, 30 July 2021 (UTC)

Bitcoin

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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An interesting article has just been published on Forbes. It covers a topic that is not mentioned in the current version of Assange's bio. Here are some quotes:

Assange once commenting that “bitcoin is the real Occupy Wall Street”.

Assange sits in Balmarsh Prison for the third year without an official sentence. This is the harshest prison in the United Kingdom, usually reserved for violent repeat offenders, many of whom have committed rape or murder — it is hard to justify why a non-violent activist would be here aside from sadistic extension of state power.

The threat model for Wikileaks was simple and yet devastatingly powerful: the most powerful state collective in the world was likely to go after them eventually, if not now, then sometime in the future. ... One of the first things he commented on was Assange’s continued belief in bitcoin, his love for a tool that made it possible to do his work. The way he thought about cryptography fighting the inevitable centralization of repression made his thought process a natural complement and extension of bitcoin’s fight to remake classical economic and financial systems.

People who support bitcoin should be concerned about Assange’s imprisonment not only because it reflects the betrayal of bitcoin’s ideals in the specific case of Assange — states tying themselves into pretzel knots in order to undermine a non-violent disseminator of information — it also makes vulnerable the principles of true transaction neutrality that underpin bitcoin, creating the most pressing version of the “wrench attack”. If you cannot go after the system, you must go after the person.

As the Internet’s gatekeepers get more and more actively involved in the Internet itself, often forced by nation-states (such as the United States leaning on payment processors to cut off payments to Wikileaks), the Internet itself becomes a shadow of itself.

The hope remains, as Assange himself noted, that new technologies will be able to mediate the unblunted power of many states — rather than consolidating their ability to control the discussion and their citizenry at scale.

Gabriel Shipton and his father John (who is Julian Assange’s father) are now engaged in a tour of the United States to help unite many different groups dedicated to the freedom of Julian Assange — and as a way to counter the consolidation of analog power online. As a concrete way to support the cause, people are asked to donate money in bitcoin ...

Burrobert (talk) 13:28, 22 June 2021 (UTC)

That's not an article, that's a blog posting (see WP:FORBES) pimping cryptocurrency by latching onto Assange's name. Completely useless and irrelevant here. --Calton | Talk 13:37, 22 June 2021 (UTC)

References

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Ad hominem and bad faith arguments?

Seems to me remarks like the following should be avoided on this page:

“The problem is that it's part of a pattern of minimising information unfavourable to Assange”

“Nor should editors try to soften the wording to make Assange look better”

“You seem to be editing the article based on your opinion, rather than sources”

“It shouldn't be removed simply because it is unfavourable to Assange.”

Whilst it is undoubtedly true that there are editors who take sides re. Julian Assange pointing the fact out during debates merely makes matters personal. Let’s, wherever possible, stick to the issues not the personalities. Prunesqualor billets_doux 10:33, 18 July 2021 (UTC)

It would depend on context.Slatersteven (talk) 10:41, 18 July 2021 (UTC)

Hopefully my qualifying “wherever possible” allows for that. The context for the quotes I provided can be seen on this page and IMO would have been better unsaid ie sticking to the issues Prunesqualor billets_doux 12:31, 18 July 2021 (UTC)

Those sound like valid issues to me. SPECIFICO talk 12:37, 18 July 2021 (UTC)

SPECIFICO That’s a little ambiguous – are you saying that you think my points are valid or that you believe the remarks I quoted are valid? Prunesqualor billets_doux 14:54, 18 July 2021 (UTC)

The latter. SPECIFICO talk 16:08, 18 July 2021 (UTC)

SPECIFICO The matter of bias in the article is very much a matter of opinion – some will consider the article to be very hard on Assange – and one could just as easily reword those quotes thus:

“The problem is that it's part of a pattern of maximising information unfavourable to Assange”

“Nor should editors try to harden the wording to make Assange look worse”

“It shouldn't be removed simply because it is favourable to Assange.”

A significant number of contributors would say “Those sound like valid issues to me”. That would still though be less helpful than sticking to the issue in hand. Prunesqualor billets_doux 17:15, 18 July 2021 (UTC)

If you have issues with users conduct report then at wp:ani or ask them to defend themselves on their talk page. We comment on content not users.Slatersteven (talk) 18:10, 18 July 2021 (UTC)

My point is about the way we “comment on issues” on this page, but if other editors have no problem with what I’m seeing as Ad hominem insinuations, or don’t think this is the correct forum, then I guess I’ll have to drop the issue. Prunesqualor billets_doux 21:08, 18 July 2021 (UTC)

I am saying if you see issues ANI is where you take it, not here.Slatersteven (talk) 09:23, 19 July 2021 (UTC)

I don’t enjoy Wiki’s complaints and appeals processes - so won’t be going there unless forced at gunpoint. I’ve said my piece – seems that editors think it ok to cry bias in order to push their arguments - so at least I know one of the ground-rules now. Prunesqualor billets_doux 09:35, 19 July 2021 (UTC)

Well, the account of the hearings into extradition to the US covers the defence arguments, but very little of the prosecution arguments. The substance of the Swedish allegations is glossed over here, and in the main article. And we have 16 sentences dealing with Assange's health since he was arresting in the embassy. So, yes, the article does seem biased to Assange. Of course, you could make it more biased...--Jack Upland (talk) 02:37, 20 July 2021 (UTC)

You are of course entitled to your opinion – it happens to be my sincere opinion that the article, overall, is strongly biased against Assange - however this may not be the time and place to deal with that Prunesqualor billets_doux 16:17, 20 July 2021 (UTC)

If you're done with this, please hat the thread before any more time is devoted to it. SPECIFICO talk 18:30, 20 July 2021 (UTC)

What does hat the thread mean? And how do I do it? Prunesqualor billets_doux 23:07, 20 July 2021 (UTC)

I would actually like to see some examples of where this article is strongly biased against Assange.--Jack Upland (talk) 07:45, 21 July 2021 (UTC)

Hat generally means in Wikipedia parlance that you pull your woolly beanie over your encrusted eyelashes, make like the boyos in the hood, pull down the white cone of silence, and shelter in your anorak in the nearest mud igloo. Or you could be Black Hat the Spy and hoodwink the Ravenmaster. I prefer to follow the Cross.--Jack Upland (talk) 10:52, 29 July 2021 (UTC)

Or to put it another way, hide off-topic posts.Slatersteven (talk) 11:09, 29 July 2021 (UTC)

I don't think the issue of WP:BIAS is not "off-topic".--Jack Upland (talk) 08:15, 30 July 2021 (UTC)

Actually they are policy is clear, you comment on the content not users.Slatersteven (talk) 09:39, 30 July 2021 (UTC)

Amnesty international reaction to US assurances

I have been asked by SPECIFICO to seek consensus for the inclusion of a sentence noting that Amnesty international are not satisfied with US “assurances” re. Assange’s prison conditions, should he be extradited. Here’s the whole paragraph (from section: “Appeal and other developments” third paragraph):

Following the decision by Judge Vanessa Baraitser to deny extradition on the grounds that it would be "oppressive to extradite [Assange] to the United States," in July 2021 The Biden administration provided assurances to the UK Crown Prosecution services that: "Mr Assange will not be subject to SAMs or imprisoned at ADX (unless he were to do something subsequent to the offering of these assurances that meets the tests for the imposition of SAMs or designation to ADX)". The United States has also provided an assurance that "the United States will consent to Mr Assange being transferred to Australia to serve any custodial sentence imposed on him." However, an Amnesty International expert responded saying “Those are not assurances at all” because US government reserves the right to break their promise.

Since the first two sentences have been left in place by SPECIFICO in his last (second) intervention I must assume them to be acceptable. So the question is do we keep the Amnesty international sentence? I would say yes because the get-out clause included by the US in their assurances is significant – people need to know that Assange could, after all, be subject to SAMs or imprisoned at ADX if he breaches some, so far poorly defined, conditions. People outside of Amnesty have also criticised the get-out clause in the US “assurances”, however I felt Amnesty international are the go-to organisation for matters of this sort – there opinion is respected and noteworthy. Hence my short sentence on the subject. Prunesqualor billets_doux 19:35, 31 July 2021 (UTC)

Thanks for coming to talk. Really, you should self-revert the challenged content until you have consensus. Repeated additions after your edit has been reverted for cause are not constructive. SPECIFICO talk 23:00, 31 July 2021 (UTC)

Thanks for the reply. Just to be clear, I completely rewrote the sentence in question, and replaced the reference, following both the occasions you deleted them. On both occasions I responded, as best I could, to the very short edit summaries you provided. As I explained to you on my talk page I want to leave the sentence in the article for now so people can clearly see what’s being talked about in context – If anyone had put forward a serious problem with the current edit eg that it is factually wrong, infringes copyright etc I would of course have removed it immediately. If you have an objection of that nature, please let me know. Otherwise just for now I’d like to leave it until you have at least fully explained you objections (after all this paragraph has so far caused me quite a bit of work and carefully attempting to meet your needs, whereas you have so far simply erased chunks of work and given two 4 word edit summaries) Prunesqualor billets_doux 09:47, 1 August 2021 (UTC)

US Case Falling Apart as Key Witness Recants

Let's discuss this text which has appeared in our hero's bio:

On 26 June 2021, Stundin, an Icelandic newspaper, reported a key witness in the United States’ Department of Justice case against Assange had admitted to making up accusations in the U.S. indictment. The witness, Sigurdur Thordarson, told the paper he fabricated accusations that Assange had instructed him to hack into the computers of members of Iceland's parliament and other accusations. Thordarson confessed to working with the Department of Justice and FBI in return for a promise the U.S. agencies would not share with Icelandic authorities information that could lead to Iceland prosecuting him for threatening the "security interests" of Iceland. According to his own admission, Thordarson continued his crime spree while working with the FBI and having the promise of immunity from prosecution.

The text was reverted a while ago with a reason of "Not RS - later corrected by Washington Post. Pertained to Manning, not Assange. Please use RS for BLP". Most of this is incoherent to me but may mean something to other editors. I know nothing about Stundin so can't comment on its reliability. The Stundin report has appeared in other sources. Should this text, or an alternative version of it, appear in Julian's bio? Burrobert (talk) 18:10, 5 August 2021 (UTC)

References