Talk:Grand Duchy of Lithuania

In 1380 a Lithuanian army allied with Russian forces to defeat the Golden Horde in the Battle of Kulikovo

What was the exact way of it? Not to attack forces of Moscow before they are defeated by Mamai? A typical ally behavior. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.127.26.74 (talk) 08:52, 25 February 2020 (UTC)

The battle of Kulikovo never took place, there is no archaeological evidence of that event ever taking place. Aleksandr Grigoryev (talk) 23:12, 3 October 2020 (UTC)

Ruthenians - sourced but removed

http://www.iesw.lublin.pl/projekty/pliki/IESW-121-02-07.pdf Xx236 (talk) 06:49, 6 June 2017 (UTC)

Lithuanian mythology/paganism

The link provided in the infobox with regards to paganism is to Lithuanian mythology, with an opening setence stating it is specifically a branch of Baltic mythology: "Lithuanian mythology is a type of Baltic mythology, developed by Lithuanians throughout the centuries."

Baltic mythology/paganism is what was practiced, as the Poles, Ruthenians (Ukranians/Belarusians), Germans and Rus of Novgorod were all Christianized. The Estonians were still pagan, but they worshipped non-Indo-European Finnic paganism, and were not part of the Grand Duchy in any case. 174.119.80.219 (talk) 02:25, 24 October 2017 (UTC)

@174.119.80.219: You fail to understand that it links to the same article. And the Estonian argument is totally out of place. – Sabbatino (talk) 07:20, 25 October 2017 (UTC)

Commons files used on this page or its Wikidata item have been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons files used on this page or its Wikidata item have been nominated for deletion:

• Lithuania in the map of Pietro Vesconte, 1321.png
• Lithuanian primer for kids, published in Vilnius, Grand Duchy of Lithuania, 1790 edition.jpg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 17:23, 22 April 2020 (UTC)

Belarusian, Lithuanian or General history?

I think, that GDL is Lithuanian - Belarusian state, but there are some people, that think it was only Lithuanian state. What do YOU think? Signevian DS (talk) 06:01, 23 April 2021 (UTC)

• GDL is Belarusian-Lithuanian state. The state language is Slavic, 90% of the territory and population are Slavic.--Лобачев Владимир (talk) 06:14, 26 June 2021 (UTC)

Kingdom, later Grand Duchy, of LITHUANIA was founded by Lithuanians according to Encyclopedia Brittanica, this research project, this research article and multitudes of other sources. A state can be of a certain ethnicity even if the state is multi-ethnic. e.g. Apartheid South Africa. The white minority was ruling over the black majority (Zulu people, Xhosa people, etc.). Does having a majority black population make South Africa a black state? No - the state belonged to the whites, not to the blacks. So, South Africa was founded and maintained by the white Afrikaners - it was a white state. What about GDL? Where there Slavs in it? Yes. Even if they were a majority, which is uncertain due to lack of statistical data and Polonization affecting many Lithuanians, that in no way makes GDL a Slavic State. GDL was founded by Lithuanians, maintained by a Lithuanian elite and is thus a LITHUANIAN STATE. --Itzhak Rosenberg (talk) 10:46, 26 June 2021 (UTC)

@Signevian DS: Easy question. Let's read some articles from Encyclopedia Britannica (the most reliable encyclopedia in the world). The early statehood of Lithuania was created by Lithuanians (same as the modern state), who expanded their territory into the Ruthenian territories and ruled them. According to Encyclopedia Britannica: "Lithuanians are an Indo-European people belonging to the Baltic group. They are the only branch within the group that managed to create a state entity in premodern times".(ref1) While Belarus according to Encyclopedia Britannica is: "While Belarusians share a distinct ethnic identity and language, they never previously enjoyed unity and political sovereignty, except during a brief period in 1918".(ref2). Also: "The Slavic peoples of what is now Belarus were in the past ruled by Prussia, Poland, Lithuania, and Russia. Consequently no distinctive national symbols were developed until the 20th century, when for the first time Belarus became independent".(ref3). By the way:

• 
  Manuscript of the Constitution of 3 May 1791 in Lithuanian language
• 
  Lithuanian language primer for kids, published in Vilnius, Grand Duchy of Lithuania

Before that the Lithuanians used Lithuanian and Latin languages (e.g. Letters of Gediminas). The Ruthenian language was used so that the Ruthenians would also understand the texts of the state. The fact that the Grand Duchy of Lithuania never was an Orthodox state perfectly illustrate that the Ruthenians never gained the highest power in this state. -- Pofka (talk) 19:40, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

File:Royal banner of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania.svg

Allegedly the coat of arms of the principality in the 16th century

Pofka, could you provide a reliable source showing that a flag existed that looked the same this image, not a coat of arms? Coats of arms are not the same as flags throughout history, they are separate things and if this was historically never a flag then this user created graphic is a work of fiction. --Лобачев Владимир (talk) 17:36, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

This discussion is just a revenge because I nominated for deletion three illustrations at Wikimedia Commons which were inaccurate or with fake colors (see these nominations: 1, 2, 3). The only accurate, legitimate flags and coat of arms of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania are those which include the Double Cross of the Jagiellonian dynasty (with blue background) or the Columns of Gediminas as these are the symbols of the rulers of the state. Seeing that this flag include the Double Cross of the Jagiellonian dynasty (in blue background), it is historically accurate:

• 
  Authentic, accurate coloring of the CoA
• 
  Royal Banner of the Polish–Lithuanian Commonwealth
• 
  Coat of arms of the Polish–Lithuanian Commonwealth
• 
  Grand Grand of Lithuania and King of Poland John III Sobieski's coat of arms crowning the Royal Chapel in Gdańsk
• 
  CoA of Lithuania as depicted on one of the Wawel Castle's towers in Kraków, Poland (in which the Polish-Lithuanian rulers previously lived at)
• 
  CoA of Lithuania as depicted on the façade of the Collegium Novum of the Jagiellonian University in Kraków (the oldest university in Poland, founded by Grand Duke of Lithuania and King of Poland Władysław II Jagiełło)
• 
  CoA with Columns of Gediminas (would be accurate to illustrate the reign of Vytautas the Great and Sigismund Kęstutaitis)

In the article it is clearly written that it is: "Supposed appearance of the royal (military) banner with design derived from a 16th century coat of arms" based on an authentic illustration with authentic coloring. If you have an image of a flag with authentic coloring, based on Lithuanian sources, then go on and upload it, but your fake illustrations, based on non-Lithuanian sources, will certainly not be accepted here. It was rejected before already (1, 2). Knowing that user Лобачев Владимир systematically attack the Lithuanian identity (and other countries identity), based on Russian/Belarusian sources, and spread his hatred for other countries and nations (e.g. 1, 2, 3), I will not reply to his propaganda because he does not seek for the WP:NPOV and simply want to consolidate his WP:OP on a daily basis in Wikipedia. For his disruptive editing in Wikipedia, he is under the discretionary sanctions (warning by an admin in his talk page). He performed similar attack in article Moldavia (see two discussions initiated by him there; all his arguments were proved to be a propaganda and were rejected by other editors). Ping relevant users who might be interested in this: @Piotrus:, @Sabbatino:, @Itzhak Rosenberg: as I believe this question was discussed before already. -- Pofka (talk) 18:55, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

By the way, user Лобачев Владимир perform identical attack at the Italian Wikipedia (1, 2; rejected by an Italian editor: 3) and French Wikipedia (1, 2, 3) articles about the Grand Duchy of Lithuania as well. -- Pofka (talk) 19:25, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

Etymology

Hi!

I wanted to expand this section later, but it looks like all my edits were removed. Sources I had added so far include both fact of name use and confirmation on how to write them. In case editors don't mind I can for now transfer Russian and Ukrainian-backed sources from corresponding language Wiki's to confirm name use and it's official declaration in Statutes of Lithuania until we find English ones. I don't see any rule against that in Wikipedia:Reliable sources, but please correct me if I'm wrong.

Regarding "removing this source because it makes dubious claims - it mentions a "Western Russian Lithuania" in the preceding sentence":

That is correct. Due to the fact that official language, most of it's population, cultural influence were Ruthenian and it's competition with Moscow to reunite all Ruthenian lands, many historians and sources view and name it as Lithuanian-Russian (Ruthenian) or Western Russian (Ruthenian) state (1, 2, 3).

Korwinski (talk) 20:36, 14 October 2021 (UTC)

@Korwinski: Hi!

I am the one who removed your edits for reasons I stated in the edit sources. It is nice to see that you are presenting better sources, compared to those you gave previously. If it is OK with you, I would suggest that you first create/write the thing you want to include in your sandbox, so that it can be prepared in such a manner that it isn't later erased.

As for the second part. There was no official language back in the Middle Ages, and no single language was officially above another in those times. The writers, administration, nobles of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania wrote in many languages, including Latin and German, so there is no ground to elevate one of them to the official status. As for the population, an example would be that the Roman Empire definitely had a small Roman citizen population compared to the rest of the Empire's inhabitants, but no one states that the Roman Empire was a Gallo-Roman state, or anything similar. There definitely was Ruthenian influence, but that doesn't make a certain state Ruthenian. Just as Austria-Hungary was influenced by Ruthenians because of many Ruthenians in it, no one claims the state as even remotely Ruthenian. As for the reunification of Ruthenian lands, the Lithuanian rulers like Algirdas were not motivated by the idea of East Slavic unity, but instead Expansion of Lithuania. This "competition" should be better portrayed as Muscovite attempts to seize Slavic lands under Lithuanian rule, and Lithuanians, although frequently warring with Muscovy, did not take upon themselves the mantle of unifier of Ruthenian lands. I will also point out that in the sources you gave, most historians and sources that take the view of "Lithuanian-Russian"/"Western Russian"/etc./etc. are views of early-20th century Russians and Ukrainians, Belarusian nationalists like Ignatovskii / Ihnatouski. Finally, an Ukrainian encyclopedia. In conclusion, all of the people saying "Lithuanian-Russian"/"Western Russian"/etc. are Russian/Belarusian/Ukrainian. So, they should be qualified as such.--Cukrakalnis (talk) 12:57, 15 October 2021 (UTC)

That's not my opinion, but one of most if not all sources I've seen to this day. I'm well aware of Latin and Polish languages use, but Lithuanian one from what I saw was quiet limited in terms of official use. In any case language is not relevant in this discussion. So is a view of different historians on influence on Grand Duchy. Because in such case we would need to eliminate sources with just Lithuanian view on the subject as well. Also I don't see how their views on nature of/dominance in Grand Duchy can change/influence dates, original full name or the fact that Samogitia became part of Grand Duchy.

That said, lets go back to the topic of discussion. I was able to find text from that original Statute of Lithuania from 1529. It is in original Ruthenian, unfortunately no English translation. My rough translation of the introduction:

Written rights of an Old Statute and given to grand duchy of Lithuania, Ruthenia, Samogitia and other [lands] by illustrious highness Sigismund, by the grace of God the king of Poland, the grand duke of Lithuania, Ruthenia, Prussia, Samogitia, Mazovia, and other [lands]

— source

After that short and full versions were used there simultaneously. Also I was able to find few sources in English that mention not only use, but that fact that there was a full official title as well:

it's proper title was the Grand Duchy of Lithuania, Rus' and Samogitia

— source

It was also included in the full name of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania (the Grand Duchy of Lithuania, Rus and Samogitia)

— source

The proper title of Lithuania was in fact the Grand Duchy of Lithuania, Rus and Samogitia and its rulers styled themselves Lethewindorum et Ruthenorum rex ('King of the Lithuanians and Ruthenians').

— source

The Grand Duchy of Lithuania, Ruthenia and Samogitia (the full official name of the state, further the GDL)

— source

the official name of which was the Grand Duchy of Lithuania, Rus' and Samogitia.

— source

Korwinski (talk) 14:22, 15 October 2021 (UTC)

@Korwinski: No one said that there was a need to eliminate sources from certain countries, instead, it was said to qualify them, which means writing "These people said this, while these said this", for example. This is normal practice on Wikipedia and there are many sentences like "According to..., this is ...", or "Certain groups views this so" and many other variations. I found that someone indeed confirms your translation (the person is a Russian historian who speaks Lithuanian), which I included it in this edit. Also, I invite you to insert those sources you provided.--Cukrakalnis (talk) 21:35, 15 October 2021 (UTC)

@Cukrakalnis: Gotcha. I won't for now as I see @Sabbatino: objects translation of Rus as Russia.

In my personal preference, I would prefer Ruthenia. Most of the sources I stated above translate it as Rus', but in case you look it up both names come up. Like in one of my initial sources with translation of legislation acts from time of rule of Alexander Jagiellon. Also that latter source disproves Sabbatino's "the name was used in the 1st statute only" statement as he ruled more than 2 decades before first Statute was compiled.

And I want to point out that Russia is also a valid translation, hence the footnote I added in my original edit:

Lithuania-Russia 1 2, Lithuanian-Russian State 1, 2, Grand Duchy of Lithuania, Russia, Zhmudz Korwinski (talk) 11:17, 16 October 2021 (UTC)

• @Korwinski: Stop causing edit warring. Just because some modern authors made inaccurate statements, it does not mean that such name of a country really existed. The Grand Dukes of Lithuania actually held titles of Samogitia and of various Ruthenian duchies (e.g. Smolensk, Kyiv, etc.), however it does not mean that the state was called other than Grand Duchy of Lithuania or simply Lithuania. Provide at least one source from the GDL (e.g. Statute of Lithuania) which uses name Grand Duchy of Lithuania, Ruthenia and Samogitia. Otherwise, these modern authors books doesn't mean a thing because such reliable source as Encyclopedia Britannica does not include such original research about triple name.

• 
  Titles of Stanisław August Poniatowski, but it does not mean that a state which included all these titles in its name existed. Moreover, this document is a Reciprocal Guarantee of Two Nations (TWO NATIONS!)

This quote you provided from a Statute of Lithuania:

Written rights of an Old Statute and given to grand duchy of Lithuania, Ruthenia, Samogitia and other [lands] by illustrious highness Sigismund, by the grace of God the king of Poland, the grand duke of Lithuania, Ruthenia, Prussia, Samogitia, Mazovia, and other [lands]

— source

Illustrates exactly the same thing: these are ROYAL TITLES, NOT NAME OF A COUNTRY. So if you want to describe TITLES held by the Grand Duke of Lithuania at the time (like with Gediminas's case) - I have no arguments against that, however original research about STATE NAME will not be accepted. Some modern authors messed up by mixing these two things into one and that's completely false as there is a difference between a RULER (Grand Duke) and a STATE (Grand Duchy). According to your edits, this state should be called Grand Duchy of Lithuania-Ruthenia-Prussia-Samogitia-Mazovia (and more). Why you include Ruthenia and Samogitia, but exclude Prussia and Mazovia in the name you propose? As I already said before, the Polish–Lithuanian–Ruthenian Commonwealth was only proposed, but never actually existed, so do not attempt to rewrite history with original research. -- Pofka (talk) 15:03, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

a) @Pofka:, please drop that nonsense with accusations. None of my actions suggest I'm doing that. While Wikipedia:Edit warring says and I quote: "It is better to seek help in addressing the issue than to engage in edit warring. When disagreement becomes apparent, one, both, or all participants should cease warring and discuss the issue on the associated talk page or seek help at appropriate venues." Instead of discussion you went ahead and started to make implications, accusations and edits of the page itself. So if you're looking for someone seeking edit wars, do consider yourself.

b) You went from "Such state never existed and was only proposed later" to "according to text of a statute, not false interpretations" and then "Just because some modern authors made inaccurate statements,". Before making accusations don't you think you should get your facts straight? I do understand why it would be easy for pro-Lithuanian camp to accuse any Eastern Slavic authors with that. But if you check, I left our only one of them. And it won't be hard to replace that source as well. Feel free to select any of the ones I already found above. So unless you provide any sources that confirm your statements, "false" accusation part can be ignored. I don't mind putting full translation of our own, but as I was looking for sources I was unable to find such. Also should I remind you of Wikipedia:No original research?

c) "it does not mean that such name of a country really existed. The Grand Dukes of Lithuania actually held titles of Samogitia and of various Ruthenian duchies (e.g. Smolensk, Kyiv, etc.), however it does not mean that the state was called other than Grand Duchy of Lithuania or simply Lithuania. Provide at least one source from the GDL (e.g. Statute of Lithuania) which uses name Grand Duchy of Lithuania, Ruthenia and Samogitia."

Did that already above. Including First statute and Privilege of rights and freedoms of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania. Do read our prior discussion and check sources.

d) "Titles of Stanisław August Poniatowski, but it does not mean that a state which included all these titles in its name existed."

I said that it remained only as a part of the title. I didn't say that it was used anymore as a name of the state after Union of Lublin.

e)"these are ROYAL TITLES, NOT NAME OF A COUNTRY"

Which part of the "given to grand duchy of Lithuania, Ruthenia, Samogitia and other [lands] by" you did not understand? And again, I had sources above selected specifically to confirm that was the name of the state because prior editor did not accept just name usage.

d) The rest I'm just going to ignore for now. These are not arguments, but accusations and nonsense without single source. Korwinski (talk) 17:06, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

Actually I just checked your edit and I have few questions:

1. "The 1529 edition". Alexander Jagiellon died in 1506, which is 23 years before first statute. May I know why you ignored this source?

2. "We need link to an authentic version of a Statute of Lithuania, not 1854 book" Should we change all references in this article to include only original versions of documents? I don't mind adding/changing it, but I do want to hear on what grounds did you decide that this source cannot be valid? Can you find more recent publication with full text included?

3. On what grounds did you remove this source?

4. "When southern and western Ruthenian lands were transferred to the Crown after the Union of Lublin, the titles of the Grand Duke of Lithuania were transferred to the titles" May I have a source that they were transferred only after Union of Lublin and not before that? Korwinski (talk) 17:30, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

@Korwinski: a) Your edits for proposition of a false name was rejected by 1-2 other editors (so including me a total of 3), but you still want to insert that false information.

b) If they write about a state which never existed, all of them are false and should be removed. Once again: THESE ARE ROYAL TITLES, NOT NAME OF A STATE. Read quote from the Statute you provided again. There is no such country as Grand Duchy of Lithuania, Ruthenia, Prussia, Samogitia, Mazovia. Only Grand Duchy of Lithuania, Kingdom of Poland existed as states and they had various vassal states (duchies like Prussia, Livonia, Smolensk, Kyiv, etc.).

c) You provided a quote which rejected your own arguments. Let's read that again: "Written rights of an Old Statute and given to grand duchy of Lithuania, Ruthenia, Samogitia and other [lands] by illustrious highness Sigismund, by the grace of God the king of Poland, the grand duke of Lithuania, Ruthenia, Prussia, Samogitia, Mazovia, and other [lands]". THESE ARE ROYAL TITLES. NOT A STATE NAME.

d) "grand duchy of Lithuania, Ruthenia, Samogitia and other [lands]", so it was Grand Duchy of Lithuania, Ruthenia, Samogitia, Prussia, Mazovia according to your logic. A complete non-sense. Plus it is not a reference from a Statute itself but some kind of book from the 1850s, thus it is not a reliable source to identify the real text, especially knowing the Russification#Lithuania and Poland topic. Here is authentic coin from period before the Union of Lublin: PICTURE which uses only one name: LITVA. You will not find text Ruthenia/Samogitia on any coin of the GDL/Commonwealth.

Here is Ukrainian Encyclopedia which provides a reliable Ukrainian point of view of the name of the state: Grand Duchy of Lithuania (Велике князівство литовське; Velyke kniazivstvo lytovske). I only have time to analyze reliable, authentic sources, not various interpretations by unknown modern authors. Modern authors are okay if there is no dispute, but in this case: all modern authors and their interpretations does not mean a thing. I can also quote many, many authors which will use only one name: Grand Duchy of Lithuania, so it is not helpful for this discussion. You can scroll through this list yourself HERE in Google books. Here is book (page 374) which provides an authentic quote which describes Samogitia, Ruthenia, Prussia as separate entities from Poland and Lithuania (but King Sigismund the Old is the ruler of all of them).

These are royal titles and it should stay described as it is. Let's save each others time. -- Pofka (talk) 20:04, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

@Pofka:

a) "Your edits for proposition of a false name was rejected by 1-2 other editors (so including me a total of 3), but you still want to insert that false information.”

1) That is a lie. Cukrakalnis did not object me adding sources after I was able to provide sources that say that name was actual full name. He stated that himself above. Sabbatino did provide any arguments, sources etc. And he himself refrained from discussion and I quote "I don't have time to argue", in no way can that be considered as “objection”.

2) You did not provide any sources that in any way object sources I provided above. So no, it’s no a “false information”, but your own opion and original research.

b and c) This source actually includes excerpt from First Lithuanian Statute. And just for you it says explicitly “Laws Given to the State, the Grand Principality of Lithuania, Rus' Samogitia and Other [Lands].”. Now original text (that you consider “falsified”) does not include that “to the state” part. But anyone who knows English (or any of the Eastern Slavic languages and can read original) can confirm that in no way my word by word translation can be summarised as just “title”. Also I just had to scroll to the second page to see "lands of Grand Duchy of Lithuania, Ruthenia, Samogitia and other [lands]" without any mention of the king/duke. Anyhow, since you don’t want to consider that close to original text from 19th century, this one should do. On top of that there’re 5 sources above that say explicitly that full name is Grand Duchy of Lithuania, Rus' and Samogitia. So yet again, these arguments are nothing but your own opinion and original research. As for title reference, you forget that starting from Casimir IV Jagiellon all grand dukes were also kings of Poland. Their title was obviously a combination of the two. Translation of "other [lands]" as Mazovia etc. is nothing else but your original research that had confirmed below.

d) "so it was Grand Duchy of Lithuania, Ruthenia, Samogitia, Prussia, Mazovia according to your logic. A complete non-sense. Plus it is not a reference from a Statute itself but some kind of book from the 1850s, thus it is not a reliable source to identify the real text"

Unlike you I don't use my own opinion, but sources. I actually found English translation of the statute. And it does have commentary about that "other lands" part. Of course nothing about Mazovia, Prussia and other nonsense you stated above:

The "other lands" mentioned in the heading of the statute as well as in the introduction to the section one are those territories and independent prinicpalities which, joined to the Grand Principality of Lithuania in its narrow sense (the lands of Vilna and Troki), comprised the political federation of the Grand Principality of Lithunia. [...] Politically, the state comprised three parts: "Lithuania" i.e. Vilna and Troki, "Samogitia" and "Rus'".

— source

You do understand that link to Internet encyclopedia of Ukraine is a shortcut there? Article itself is called Lithuanian-Ruthenian state. But I will note that you confirmed it as a reliable source.

In conclusion and regarding “all modern authors and their interpretations does not mean a thing”: That is again original research. Its standard practice for historians to give historiography name and yes, it is allowed and not considered as “falsification”. Countries like Weimar Republic, Byzantine Empire, Novgorod Republic or Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth were never called that during their existence. You can open Polish–Lithuanian_Commonwealth#Name and see for yourself official name changes and that surprise, since 17th century it was often referred to only by its short name - Poland. Does it mean that there wasn’t a full one that included Lithuania or that full name is a “falsification”? Of course not. Same goes for Grand Duchy. In this case it's not a historiography term, but actual full one. For which I presented numerous sources and at the same time excluded Eastern Slavic historians/publications as much as possible in order to avoid any possible accusation. And I even found original legislative acts that state that. As for your links, they are pointless in this case. I checked and they don't cover name this topic. Grand Duchy of Lithuania is the most common name? Yes, no doubt about that. I'm not changing name of the article or renaming it in any other section. Grand Duchy underwent few major territorial and political changes which also reflected in its full name, coat of arms etc. And so far I see no objective reason for them not to be included in the article. Korwinski (talk) 23:15, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

@Korwinski: So now it is a Lithuanian-Ruthenian state? But... You said that the "correct" name is Grand Duchy of Lithuania, Ruthenia, and Samogitia. So where is Samogitia? Plus Grand Duchy of Lithuania links to Lithuania, not the article you provided (THIS) and even the article you provided (THIS) does not include name "Grand Duchy of Lithuania, Ruthenia, and Samogitia". It is evident that you are trying to prove that white is black instead of admitting that white is white, so I will not continue repeating the same thing again and again. I already told you that: 1) according to your logic the name of the state should be Grand Duchy of Lithuania, Ruthenia, Samogitia, Prussia, Mazovia (that's completely false), but you completely ignore the fact that these are royal titles; 2) Your provided source is a Imperial Russian source from the 1850s, so it has nothing to do with the Grand Duchy of Lithuania itself which ceased to exist in 1795; 3) You did not provided ANY source (e.g. book, coin, document) published before 1795 which includes name of the state as Grand Duchy of Lithuania, Ruthenia, and Samogitia. On the contrary, I provided two sources which were published before 1795 to support my valid statements (1, 2). So provide at least one authentic source published before 1795 to support your statements about a different name of this state or there is nothing else to discuss. Name of a state is the most basic thing, so it shouldn't be hard if you are correct. I will be forced to notify the administrators if baseless edit warring will continue in this article with made up interpretations. -- Pofka (talk) 15:30, 27 October 2021 (UTC)

@Pofka:

"So now it is a Lithuanian-Ruthenian state? But... You said that the "correct" name is Grand Duchy of Lithuania, Ruthenia, and Samogitia. So where is Samogitia? Plus Grand Duchy of Lithuania links to Lithuania, not the article you provided (THIS) and even the article you provided (THIS) does not include name "Grand Duchy of Lithuania, Ruthenia, and Samogitia". It is evident that you are trying to prove that white is black instead of admitting that white is white, so I will not continue repeating the same thing again and again."

a) Are you done twisting my words? I don't mind adding modern historiography name, but then again its YOUR SOURCE and its YOUR WORDS that state that this source is valid.

b) It does link to Lithuania article. MODERN Lithuania, not historical one. But in any case check its history part to see how it names Grand Duchy. 

c) Samogitia part was added when it joined Grand duchy in XVth century. I mentioned that in my initial edit. At the moment I didn't add yet as I wanted to exclude all Eastern slavic sources for reason mentioned above.

1) "I already told you that: 1) according to your logic the name of the state should be Grand Duchy of Lithuania, Ruthenia, Samogitia, Prussia, Mazovia (that's completely false), but you completely ignore the fact that these are royal titles;"

I request any admin that can read basic English. This is just preposterous.

2) "Your provided source is a Imperial Russian source from the 1850s, so it has nothing to do with the Grand Duchy of Lithuania itself which ceased to exist in 1795;"

a) Any rule on Wikipedia that we can't use it? Any source that confirms that it "falsified" in any way? Should we remove all post 1795 sources?

b) This source that includes introduction of the statute was published in 2016 and this one was published in 1976 and includes full translation. In no way they are affiliated with Russian empire, russification etc.

3) "You did not provided ANY source (e.g. book, coin, document) published before 1795 which includes name of the state as Grand Duchy of Lithuania, Ruthenia, and Samogitia. On the contrary, I provided two sources which were published before 1795 to support my valid statements (1, 2). So provide at least one authentic source published before 1795 to support your statements about a different name of this state or there is nothing else to discuss. Name of a state is the most basic thing, so it shouldn't be hard if you are correct. I will be forced to notify the administrators if baseless edit warring will continue in this article with made up interpretations."

a) Lets start with I don't have to. It's a made up rule and a violation of Wikipedia:Reliable_sources: Wikipedia articles should be based mainly on reliable secondary sources. I don't need to have sources from Ancient Greece (another historiography term. No country existed under that name. It wasn't even a country) written in Ancient Greek to write about it.

b) Full name was dropped back in mid 16th century. Shouldn't I look for sources from before 1566 in such case? You do understand how that sounds?

c) That last part is a violation of Wikipedia:Harassment#Threats. You can start you request to administrators with that and the fact that you falsely accuse me of edit warring, while you're the one who ignored discussion and made new edits. Korwinski (talk) 17:36, 27 October 2021 (UTC)

Okey, no sources provided before 1795, so this will not be included into article as part of the WP:NPOV as it is not supported by any authentic sources from before 1795, Lithuanian sources or such top-class sources as Encyclopedia Britannica. By the way, there is no such thing as old and modern Lithuania as it is the same country created by the same nation (European Comission), so if you want to try to prove that Lithuania is not Lithuania - I warn you that it was rejected many times here already. Save your and others time. I have every right to report users who attempt to rewrite Wikipedia with false information/interpretations. -- Pofka (talk) 18:06, 27 October 2021 (UTC)

@Pofka:

Which part of the that is self made rule and a violation of Wikipedia:Reliable_sources you don't get?

As for the rest, you can leave your demagogy to yourself. Switching subjects won't help you. I'm waiting for you to submit request to Wikipedia:Dispute resolution noticeboard. Otherwise I will just have to revert your changes for reasons stated above.

P.S. In the mean time do learn some English. In case you don't understand what "Modern Lithuania" means, giving sources that state that it has "Modern history" is not a good idea, don't you think? Korwinski (talk) 18:23, 27 October 2021 (UTC)