Talk:Rosalind Picard

Reworded sentence

Can we start with a version of PelleSmith's sentence:

"In February 2006, the New York Times reported that Picard was one of a small number of nationally prominent researchers whose names appeared on the Discovery Institute's controversial petition "A Scientific Dissent From Darwinism," which supports intelligent design."

and possibly expand it somewhat to find a consensus version? Or perhaps,

Picard has expressed support for intelligent design theory, and was one of a small number of nationally prominent researchers whose names appeared on the Discovery Institute's controversial petition "A Scientific Dissent From Darwinism."

I'm sure we can find a wording everyone agrees with. — Carl (CBM · talk) 17:01, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

I believe these versions "explain what might otherwise be a confusing statement," in extreme clairty without delving into what it "has been widely used by its sponsor, the Discovery Institute," for. We should not be forcing inferences about petition signers onto our readers based upon what other people or institutions are doing with their signed petition. If there are reliable sources reporting on such inferences, or making them in a critical capacity, then its fair game, but that appears not to be the case here.PelleSmith (talk) 17:05, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

The DI's petition is used to promote intelligent design, period. It is one of the centerpieces of the Discovery Institute's ID campaign. The article will need reflect this easily verifiable fact or else be under constant attack. Let's not gloss over the facts. Odd nature (talk) 19:44, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

Is there a reliable reference source that specifically identifies Picard as a supporter of intelligent design theory, or is that being extrapolated from her signing of the petition? Risker (talk) 17:18, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

The first suggested sentence makes no such inference, but you make a good point. The petition itself is not even explicitly in support of "intelligent design" but instead "skeptical" of Darwinism. Are you suggesting it should be reworded?PelleSmith (talk) 17:23, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

I would suggest that such nuance in a couple of words is impossible. We don't need the last sentence at all. "Picard was one of a small number of nationally prominent researchers whose names appeared on the Discovery Institute's controversial petition "A Scientific Dissent From Darwinism". should be enough for our purposes. --Relata refero (disp.) 17:26, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

See my above comments, re: whitewashing to remove the importance and notability of the statement. Raul654 (talk) 17:29, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

Please address the points raised. If by "above comments" you mean "Effectively cloaking the meaning, importance, and notability of that fact that she signed it" - so much more pleasant to hear than "whitewashing", by the way - those concerns have already been effectively answered by the fact that (a) we don't know the meaning of why she signed it (b) its neither particularly important in terms of her bio nor relevant to her reason for notability. --Relata refero (disp.) 17:46, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

(edit conflict) For the record I agree with Relata above, though am not opposed to a descriptor if there are those who think that "dissent from Darwinism" isn't enough of an explanation in and of itself. I have found this concerning her attitude towards intelligent design from a seemingly reliable source: "But Picard has some reservations about intelligent design, saying it isn't being sufficiently challenged by Christians and other people of faith."PelleSmith (talk) 17:32, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

The current wording is clear, and it doesn't go beyond the references. She signed the DI petition. We explain what the petition is. We don't assert that Picard is a supporter of ID; it seems likely that she is (read this history of this page), but we don't know.

At present the article states a notable fact about her, and adds context. Why is that a bad thing? Guettarda (talk) 17:31, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

Because it makes her look bad. And people are attempting to distort the meaning of BLP (which is designed to expiate the removal of libelous content, which this is not) to turn this article into a hagiography. Raul654 (talk) 17:33, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, we're all for hagiographies, us. --Relata refero (disp.) 17:47, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

The problem is that currently we do not "explain what the petition is." The disputed sentence discusses what the DI has used the petition for, and not what the petition states. That is not explaining "what the petition is" and it infers that the person who signed it supports this use without presenting any verification of this fact. With outside sourcing it would not be a problem, and the fact that a zealous editor here has tried to do his own primary research and infers X, Y and Z from Picard's lack of response to him does not cut it by our standards.PelleSmith (talk) 17:37, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

PelleSmith is exactly right here. The sentence in question is a broadside against the Discovery Institute and has nothing to do with Picard, nor even discusses the petition. Plus I don't see why people are conducting investigate journalism here by contacting Picard and the New York Times. Unless she files an OTRS ticket or makes her views known via a reliable source, we can assume nothing about what she thinks about this article. And again, it appears we've lost all sense of perspective here - the NYT article mentioned her name in passing, that's it. - Merzbow (talk) 18:03, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

Absolutely correct, as Merzbow has pointed out twice now, her name was only mentioned in passing. People here keep on discussing the NYT article as if it were primarily about Picard's signing of the petition which it is clearly not.PelleSmith (talk) 18:09, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

Re Raul: if Picard's actions make her look bad, so be it. We can't help that, and we should say she signed the petition. My impression of the current wording is that it discusses the actions of the Discovery Institute in order to cast a negative light on Picard - that's the BLP issue. The sentences above let the reader click the links and come to their own conclusion about Picard's actions, and that's exactly what we want for NPOV here. — Carl (CBM · talk) 17:54, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

When there's more about this evil petition than anything else in her entire career, there's something wrong with the biography. What the petition is used for, is not up to Picard. I agree with CBM - link people to the debate about the petition and let them decide. Anything else is undue weight and coatracking. I'm a strong opponent of so-called "intelligent design" and the Discovery Institute and their tactics, but to rub their tactics all over Picard's bio strikes me as unfair and unnecessary. If there's evidence that she's actively participated in the movement beyond signing this thing, provide it. Otherwise, just say she signed it and leave it at that. FCYTravis (talk) 18:05, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

The second sentence tells the reader about the petition, rather than stating uninformatively that she's signed some petition. The NYT describes her signing it in the context that "In the recent skirmishes over evolution, advocates who have pushed to dilute its teaching have regularly pointed to a petition signed by 514 scientists and engineers. The petition, they say, is proof that scientific doubt over evolution persists." That's what the second sentence explains. .. dave souza, talk 18:15, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

But we don't know if she's done any of these things. We certainly don't know that she has been pushing "to discredit evolution and to promote the teaching of intelligent design in public schools," which is what the sentence says about DI and "some of its supporters." The RS I found earlier even suggests that while she is a skeptic of Darwinism she is not sold on "intelligent design" herself making the inference that she wants to promote its teaching in public schools knowingly borderline libelous. Again, with sources attesting to such things this would not be an issue.PelleSmith (talk) 18:28, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

The way to fix this, if she is so notable for other things as others claim, is to include more material about her other activities. So, if you claim she is notable, then describe it. Fair enough?--Filll (talk) 18:21, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

We don't need a whole second sentence to tell us what the petition is. That can be folded into the existing sentence - the petition questions the modern evolutionary synthesis. All the rest is politicking. We also don't need to say that the "New York Times reported that she signed it" - that makes it sound like some striking act of investigative journalism. The fact that she signed it is self-evident. FCYTravis (talk) 18:28, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

Reply to Dave Souza: Well, again. That is what other people are saying the petition means; it doesn't actually explain Picard's position. The link above given by Pelle Smith includes direct quotes on her position, and is far more useful than someone else's interpretation of what that petition meant, and whether or not she agrees with how it has been used or interpreted by others. I would have no objection to the use of Pelle Smith's reference, and would suggest it should actually take primacy over the petition since the article includes her own words. Risker (talk) 18:24, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

We are not here to gloss over the facts. The petition is a centerpiece in the Discovery Institute's ID campaign. Any attempt to gloss over easily verifiable facts like this will only result in the article being under constant attempts to update it. Odd nature (talk) 19:47, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Your re-write is false. The petition may be part of a "campaign to promote intelligent design," the petition itself is only critical of Darwinism, which may be a prerequisite of belief in ID but it is itself not positive support of that specific theory. There is no whitewashing going on here. There was already ample explanation and wikilining before you rendered the sentence actually false. Ontop of this we have an RS that states that this individual is not in specific support of ID though her perspective may be similar, making the insinuation based on the falsehood a larger problem.PelleSmith (talk) 19:58, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

You appear to be clueless on the subject. Read the A Scientific Dissent From Darwinism and Discovery Institute intelligent design campaigns articles and try making that claim again. Odd nature (talk) 20:33, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

It appears you don't understand what I said or you're trying to be confusing. I have read both of those wikipedia entries. The petition is used in a larger campaign which promotes ID, but the petition itself which I've read several times, and amounts to two sentences, makes no positive claim. Its only claim is negative, or "critical." The sentence, as it stood, made the claim that the petition itself promoted ID. Do you understand the difference?PelleSmith (talk) 20:41, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

To quote from the entry you have linked yourself: "The Discovery Institute presents the list in an appeal to authority to support its anti-evolution viewpoint." The petition supports the negative claim, against Darwinism but not the positive claim, for ID. Now if other documents, programs, or what have you that the DI uses along with this petition in various ways promote ID then that is another matter, but that's not what I objected to.PelleSmith (talk) 20:44, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

Of course, Picard's only claim to notability is simply the fact that she is part of DI's campaign to discredit science. Otherwise, I doubt she'd rate an article. OrangeMarlin ^{Talk• Contributions} 19:52, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

You are mistaken. She has been the subject of at least two article-length profiles in reliable sources. The ID petition, judging by Google News, is a fractionally small proportion of her notability. --Relata refero (disp.) 20:18, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

I'm mistaken because ???? I don't know science? I'm not well educated in this area? Because I'm not a scientist? This article was mostly edited because of her ID position. There are thousands of other scientists who do not have articles on here, and the fact is they have done much more than this Creationist has done. Especially since her work isn't science, it's more applied engineering. OrangeMarlin ^{Talk• Contributions} 20:24, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

If the only claim for her to have an article is that she was one of 514 people who signed something, then she shouldn't have an article at all. Please stop reverting legitimate edits with the claim that it is "whitewashing." You are assuming bad faith and refusing to engage in good-faith consensus editing efforts. FCYTravis (talk) 20:27, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

Oh give me a break. I have made one edit in language and one edit in MOS today. Where do you get off making that attack??? OrangeMarlin ^{Talk• Contributions} 20:38, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

Because every time you revert someone's rewrite, you scream "whitewash" - which is neither true, nor helpful. It serves to entrench positions and fuel the flames. I could just as easily accuse you of single-mindedly attempting to portray this person in as bad a light as possible - something which policy and good practice frowns on. Are you here to stop the evil whitewashers, or are you here to work in good faith on this article? FCYTravis (talk) 20:51, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

WP:SPADE. Odd nature (talk) 22:51, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

OK then, if you want to go there. If I'm here to whitewash, you're here to smear, making this biography as negative as you can possibly make it, using her signing of the petition as a coatrack to hang all manner of inferences and speculation on her. So I guess between my whitewashing and your smearing, we'll find a balance. FCYTravis (talk) 23:00, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

That is a matter for us to determine by way of WP:ACADEMIC. The very context in which the NYT mentions her name is one of notability. As in she is one of a very few notable academics who signed this petition, so I doubt this assertion very much.PelleSmith (talk) 19:58, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

Last go round it was hard to find much to support her notability, but enough was found and added. Glad to see more being added. The petition is obscure in itself, her significance was that she continued to give it tacit support at a time when it was being used in campaigning, as shown in the news article. Her statement of November 2007 sort of distances her from ID, and it is appropriate to show that. .. dave souza, talk 20:08, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

The version as it stands here is acceptable to me. It's one sentence, accurately states that the petition is used to promote intelligent design, but doesn't make any allegations or conclusions about her thoughts on how the petition has been used. FCYTravis (talk) 20:35, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

Source

This is the source mentioned above, in case anyone is confused: http://news.therecord.com/article/264978. In this source she says she's not happy with Intelligent Design though her own perspective is certainly similar. Regards.PelleSmith (talk) 18:32, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

Thanks. I've incorporated it along with revisions to clarify the petition situation – the petition doesn't say anything about modern evolutionary theory, but makes a vague expression of skepticism about "Darwinism". Glad to see more sources and information being found, previously it was hard to find much to confirm notability. ... dave souza, talk 20:01, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

Well your rewrite brings us back to pretty much the same situation we were in before it was cleaned up. Again we have the actions of the DI reported here as if by inference she supports them through her signing, yet we have not verified that this is true, and in fact we have reason to believe that she does not support specifically the teaching of ID. So good job bringing the BLP problems back full swing.PelleSmith (talk) 20:04, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

You misrepresent the petition, and my edit does not say she supports ID. Read it carefully. .. dave souza, talk 20:30, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

Be clear. The report says what the petition was, she had opportunity to distance herself from the petition and chose to give it tacit support. What her reasoning was is unknown, we can only report the facts. Note well that the petition does not oppose modern evolutionary theory, but it was used to oppose evolution. .. dave souza, talk 20:34, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

We can't infer anything from her "opportunity to distance herself from the petition." We can't make any inferences. This is like the whole phony Obama/Rev. Wright debacle - just because you're associated with someone at one time, doesn't mean you automatically support everything they do or say. The fact that she has not necessarily chosen to speak out against any particular example of Discovery Institute's work, does not mean that she supports the Discovery Institute's goals and aims. She's signed the petition, which has been used to promote intelligent design. Those are facts. Anything beyond that, is speculation and inference, which obviously we cannot do, especially on a BLP. FCYTravis (talk) 20:46, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

And if she does support all of their goals we have to wait until such a time that we can provide verfiable proof of this, otherwise we're just courting BLP trouble. How hard is it to understand this?PelleSmith (talk) 20:50, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

Writings

http://mitpress.mit.edu/e-books/Hal/chap13/thirteen1.html

Something about this chapter might be useful in the article. --Kim Bruning (talk) 19:38, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

“ Imagine your robot entering the kitchen as you prepare breakfast for guests. The robot looks happy to see you and greets you with a cheery "Good morning." You mumble something it does not understand. It notices your face, vocal tone, smoke above the stove, and your slamming of a pot into the sink, and infers that you do not appear to be having a good morning. Immediately, it adjusts its internal state to "subdued," which has the effect of lowering its vocal pitch and amplitude settings, eliminating cheery behavioral displays, and suppressing unnecessary conversation. Suppose you exclaim, "Ow!!" yanking your hand from the hot stove, rushing to run your fingers under cold water, adding "I can't believe I ruined the sauce." While the robot's speech recognition may not have high confidence that it accurately recognized all of your words, its assessment of your affect and actions indicates a high probability that you are upset and maybe hurt. ”

Seems to be from Scholarpedia by R. Picard herself, and doesn't seem to be in the book at all. (I can see how you might get that wrong-ish). Can someone check where else it might occur? --Kim Bruning (talk) 19:50, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

Undue complaint

It is complained that for this biography, there are two parts:

• A, about Picard's career
• B, about Picard's signature of a petition

and that B is too large compared to A. The only reason that there is an article here is because of B. Others claim that A justifies the article, even if B was not true.

To make A larger than B, either B can be reduced, or A can be increased. For those who claim that there is plenty of A to justify an article, they should be able to expand A. Stop complaining about it over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over for months on end and just do it. Just do it. Is that so hard? Do it.

And so instead of attacking the two sentences of B, add to A. The reasonable way to increase the ratio of A/B is to increase A, not decrease B. If you claim there is not enough A to use to increase A/B, then lets just get rid of this waste of time. And set the size of A and B equal to zero.

This is not rocket science here. Just stop whining and work.--Filll (talk) 20:21, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for that straw man. It is complained here that the nature of B (in the version you prefer) makes inferences about the subject that are not correct. The way to fix an error is not to add more unproblematic text as if pilling on the roses makes the shit stink any less. No offense but this is getting a bit tiresome. Can you at least stick to the actual complaint, and stop telling people that things they consider important simply amount to "whining."PelleSmith (talk) 20:27, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

I am not even going to justify that with a response. Just be aware that the last person who tried to claim such nonsense was banned for their trouble. And I already warned you in detail about it. So...--Filll (talk) 20:37, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

Your repeated insults about "nonsense" and "whining" are not exactly understood as "warnings" of a legitimate nature. This latest "warning" amounts to nothing but a "threat." Please do try to report this somewhere, I'm fairly confident I'm not the one who would get banned as a result. Regards.PelleSmith (talk) 20:48, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

Please feel free to be productive instead of violating WP:CIVIL, WP:NPA, WP:AGF and a number of other principles. Cheers!--Filll (talk) 21:06, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

Baseless accusations, especially when mixed in with clear insults, are themselves text book violations of WP:NPA. Feel free to read the policies you are slinging around. Cheers.PelleSmith (talk) 21:16, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

WP:BAIT again huh? As I said, actually being helpful would be nice.--Filll (talk) 21:58, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

Forking the above discussion to divert attention to the fact that consensus was not going his way, I'd say. Odd nature (talk) 22:53, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

Wording

Dave's version

She is one of the signatories of the Discovery Institute's controversial petition "A Scientific Dissent From Darwinism which has been used in campaigns to discredit evolution and to promote the teaching of intelligent design in public schools.[19][20] In a 2007 interview she raised the idea of a "greater mind" making some intervention beyond random processes in the complexity of DNA, but expressed reservations about intelligent design, saying that people of faith should challenge it and be more skeptical.[21]

Current wording

Picard is one of 514 signatories of the Discovery Institute's "A Scientific Dissent From Darwinism," a controversial petition which has been used to promote intelligent design by questioning modern evolutionary theory.[21][22] In a 2007 interview she raised the idea of a "greater mind" making some intervention beyond random processes in the complexity of DNA, but expressed reservations about intelligent design, saying that people of faith should challenge it and be more skeptical.[23]

I think Dave's version is superior for a number of reasons

1. Single-sentence paragraphs are generally bad form
2. Discredit evolution vs. question the modern synthesis - the DI's campaigns are verifiably more abot discrediting evolution than question the modern synthesis. "Darwinism" is, after all, Darwin's theory, not the modern synthesis. And what is being questioned there is some odd caricature of evolution, not the modern synthesis.

I'm still not sure why one sentence is better than the original wording (The petition, a two-sentence statement, has been widely used by its sponsor, the Discovery Institute, and some of its supporters in a national campaign to discredit evolution and to promote the teaching of intelligent design in public schools), since that avoids the problem of having to characterise the situation at all. In addition, of course, the whole issue of notability is lost - Picard's being a signatory of the petition is notable because (a) she's relatively prominent, and (b) she's a non-biologist.

So, um, why is this wording better again...? Guettarda (talk) 21:11, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

This article is not about the petition or its campaigns. There are entire other Wikipedia articles for those issues. The petition specifically says "We are skeptical of claims for the ability of random mutation and natural selection to account for the complexity of life. Careful examination of the evidence for Darwinian theory should be encouraged." That is "questioning modern evolutionary theory." That is what she signed on to. Whether or not she supports the teaching of intelligent design in public schools, is not known, and to attach that to her without evidence is guilt by association. FCYTravis (talk) 21:17, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

The first clause of that sentence pertains to the modern sythesis; the latter clause goes directly to Darwin's original formulation. And, given that the next sentence refers specifically to "Darwinism" and that the petition itself is called a "Dissent from Darwinism", it's pretty clear they mean all of evolution. Raul654 (talk) 21:20, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

Travis, can you explain how you are so certain about this? How is "random mutation and natural selection" the modern synthesis? If you equate "random mutation" with the cause of Darwin's "variation", you end up with something much closer to Darwin's formulation than modern evolutionary biology. It's beside the point whether Picard believes in teaching ID in schools - it's our job to say "this is the instrument she signed". It isn't about guilt by association, it's about providing coherent prose that is informative. Hiding the details of the petition behind a hyperlink changes nothing for a reader who clicks the link, but deprives the non-clicking reader of any clue what the "dissent from Darwinism" petition is about. Guettarda (talk) 21:30, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

The irony here is that the petition itself is not technically "used to promote ID," but to clear the ground for such a promotion. Other campaigns of the DI promote ID specifically, this petition simply attempts to lend scientific credibility to the criticism of ID's competition--theories of evolution. These campaigns may attempt to do what people are claiming here but the petition itself, on its own, does not do so. A reading of the relevant wiki entries will make this abundantly clear. The desire to keep the disputed language in the entry seems more and more like an attempt at "guilt by association" especially since the association is twice removed ... person X signs petition Y which it turns out is used along with claim Z. We should not be insinuating that person X believes claim Z without some evidence, period.PelleSmith (talk) 21:33, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

Yes, not to mention that the secondary source cited (NYT) does not support the text "which has been used in campaigns to discredit evolution and to promote the teaching of intelligent design in public schools". Nowhere does the NYT article say anything remotely like that. This is a disturbing lack of precision for a BLP on a minor figure, and we should be falling all over ourselves to be as careful as possible, not the opposite. - Merzbow (talk) 22:08, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

NYT – In the recent skirmishes over evolution, advocates who have pushed to dilute its teaching have regularly pointed to a petition signed by 514 scientists and engineers. The petition, they say, is proof that scientific doubt over evolution persists.... The petition was started in 2001 by the institute, which champions intelligent design as an alternative theory to evolution and supports a "teach the controversy" approach, like the one scuttled by the state Board of Education in Ohio last week. . . dave souza, talk 22:39, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

Note that the NYT says the petition is being used as "proof that scientific doubt over evolution persists" and not that it is being used to champion intelligent design. The NYT times then seperately says that it the Institute "champions intelligent design as an alternative theory to evolution and supports a 'teach the controversy' approach." Nowhere does the NYT state that the petition aims to promote ID or that the people who signed it support teaching it in schools. Those who support teaching ID in schools look to this petition for fodder. The relevant wiki entries on the campaigns and on the petition also make this pretty clear. I'm dumbfounded by the idea that not only are you misrepresenting the source yourselves but you have the gall to accuse others of violating policy when all they are doing is reading and comprehending the English language as it is meant to be understood.PelleSmith (talk) 00:16, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Just for the record, you seem to have lost track of my statements and become a little mixed up. The DI aimed the petition at supporting ID and its use in schools, and the signatures have been used to that ende, but the petition itself is ambiguous and the aims of those signing it are unknown. I've made no accusations about anyone violating policy, and the NYT article should be read as a whole to be properly comprehended. .. dave souza, talk 08:42, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Interestingly, I have been advised that purposely and repeatedly mispresenting the content of sources is grounds for administrative sanctions. Doing this just violates the basis on which the encyclopedia is built.--Filll (talk) 22:56, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

You've made this threat to a number of long-term and good-faith editors on this talk page. It's time to either make good on the threat or stop using it as a content-advantage tactic. - Merzbow (talk) 23:25, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

I will thank you not to violate WP:CIVIL, WP:AGF, WP:NPA and engage in WP:BAIT. I am trying to avoid any trouble here. Just relax. The source says what it says, ID is what it is, the DI is what it is, Picard signed the petition, and there is not much you can do about it, and Picard has now issued a statement partly distancing herself from ID and the DI agenda. So...that is how it goes. The more blustering and attacking you do, the more lying you do about the sources, the worse things will get. Just take it easy. You will edit longer.--Filll (talk) 23:36, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

I see the institute being accused of this. I see nothing about the institute using the petition in campaigns for this purpose. - Merzbow (talk) 23:25, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

You're a long time ID fan, I know you're not as clueless about this as you'd like us to think. Read Discovery Institute intelligent design campaigns‎ and A Scientific Dissent From Darwinism. Odd nature (talk) 23:38, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

You're accusing a stone-cold atheist of being an ID fan. That's the most hilarious thing I've read all day. Perhaps you'd like to check out my over 1000+ posts as "Merzbow42" over at the IIDB board (for example, [1])? - Merzbow (talk) 23:54, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

Why don't you read those entries Odd Nature. Nothing in those entries supports your crusade to tar this woman. No one arguing against you is a fan of ID either. What we are fans of is carefully reading and understanding sources, wikipedia entries and applicable guidelines. Some of us who think ID is a pretty ridiculous theory, also respect the rights of the human beings we write about here to actually commit the crimes we accuse them of before we do so accuse them or so insinuate about them.PelleSmith (talk) 00:24, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

I am amused that everyone who is taking a critical look at the way Picard is being portrayed here, is automatically tagged and tarred as an ID advocate. My father has a Ph.D in palaeontology from UC Berkeley. His research specialty was early primate evolution, and there's a long-extinct primate named after me. I am an avid reader of Pharyngula and think intelligent design is a pile of religious piffle intended to sneak fundamentalist Christianity in the back door of public schools. But that does not excuse us from our duty to treat Wikipedia articles about living persons with the utmost caution and consideration, so that we do not imply something which sources cannot support. If there's a source that says Picard is on the record as wanting ID in schools, fine, say it here. But if not, then removing that connotation is not "whitewashing" but simple fairness and accuracy. FCYTravis (talk) 00:31, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Please spare us the personal rants and offtopic nonsense. They are irrelevant for this article. I don't care if you are an atheist or who your father is. This is all a waste of time and frankly outrageous to shove on this talk page. What does it have to do with writing an encyclopedia? If this continues, we will have to start archiving it or userfying it because it does not belong here. Thanks.--Filll (talk) 00:36, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

It certainly is relevant, considering the accusations made. People are making false assertions about being "ID fans" and responding to that is neither off-topic nor a rant. One may not make an unfounded allegation and then cry "off-topic" when the people so tarred respond to refute the charges. FCYTravis (talk) 00:40, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Huh? why on earth are you trying to pick a fight? Please relax.--Filll (talk) 01:01, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Dave's wording is better and makes sense. The other is incoherent and bad grammar. And the hair splitting and nonsense is just serving to obfuscate the issues.--Filll (talk) 22:02, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

Um, I hate to point this out to you Travis, but you're arguing for a passage that promotes a particular point of view. That the petition questions evolution is happening to used to promote intelligent design is itself a view. One which plays the Discovery Institute's hide the ID in the appearance of a legitimate but ultimately contrived dispute, read Teach the Controversy. Reliable sources and the facts show that the the ID/creationist text book Of Pandas and People came up with the notion and term of ID which was then picked up by the Discovery Institute which then founded the ID movement. The Discovery Institute's Wedge strategy set forth the aims and governing principles of the movement, and A Scientific Dissent From Darwinism is simply one the invidual Discovery Institute campaigns which seek to misrepresnt evolution as "a theory in crisis" subject to sweep doubt in the scientific community: [2][3] Portraying A Scientific Dissent From Darwinism as anything other than what it is -a part of a campaign promoting ID- is to purpetuate the Discovery Institute's own PR rhetoric. Protraying it petition that questions evolution and just happens to be used by the DI (the source of both Dissent From Darwinism and the ID movement I remind you) demonstably violates NPOV's Undue Weight clause.

I've provided 2 sources above showing the Discovery Institute runs a cynical campaign of misinformation. I have literally dozens of sources showing the Dissent From Darwinism petition is an integral part of that campaign, and I'm more than happy to provide them all here over time and make it stick. Now we can spend a few days or weeks arguing over this or we can all acknowledge the verifiable fact that A Scientific Dissent From Darwinism promotes intelligent design by discounting evolution and move on to something more productive. It's your call Travis. FeloniousMonk (talk) 02:26, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

You have dozens of reliable sources showing that the petition is an integral part of the campaign yet you decide to provide us with two sources that don't even mention the petition? No one is disputing the DI's aims, or how they use their petition, but this entry is NOT ABOUT THE DISCOVERY INSTITUTE, nor is it about their campaigns, nor is it about the petition. This entry is about a living person who cannot be shown verifiably to share the POV of the DI regarding the teaching of ID in schools. You cannot either claim that a document which has no reference to ID whatsoever promotes it. It is clearer than day that it is the DI that promotes ID and that they use their petition has fodder for this by attempting to cast doubt on "science" of evolution. But that still doesn't make the petition say something it doesn't, and it certainly doesn't make this living person say something she HASN'T. Doing so is a violation of BLP. Please address the issues instead of continuing this crusade.PelleSmith (talk) 03:24, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

No, it isn't about the DI. It's about Picard. Who is notable because she is (a) one of the more scientifically notable signatories of the petition, and (b) not a biologist (so why is she signing the petition? It doesn't relate to her work.) So we need to mention the petition. The average reader wouldn't know what the petition is, or why that info is on this page. So we explain the significance of the petition.

Why is that contentious? Aren't we supposed to be writing informative articles? Guettarda (talk) 03:39, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

That point has been answered time and again. Let me try once more. The actions of the DI are not pertinent to the biography of one of the petition signers unless there is a verifiable connection between this person and those actions. There is not, unless you are all hiding the reliable sources on us. To go on about how the DI uses this petition in campaigns to promote the teaching of ID in schools in the biography of someone who is on record as not supporting ID, even suggesting that people of "faith" question the theory, is nothing more than an attempt to smear this individual. Isn't it enough to clearly state that the petition is against evolutionary theory? What is this obsession with connecting everyone who signs it with Intelligent Design? This is insane.PelleSmith (talk) 03:58, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

It has been answered? Can you please point to where it was answered? Thanks. Guettarda (talk) 05:35, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Right above you. if you squint sideways at the top of this page, and the light is good, you might get to see the title of this page. It says "Rosalind Picard". It does not say "Discovery Institute". This potty little signature is a tiny infinitesmal fraction of her notability except for those obsessed with this petty political debate. --Relata refero (disp.) 06:21, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Really? All I see is PelleSmith asserting that something is true, without any explanation. The only explanation that goes beyond an empty assertion is Travis' claim that his "plain reading" trumps sourced explanations. And that is patently ridiculous. Guettarda (talk) 07:16, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

What I have explained is that 1) the sources do not link Picard to the actions of the DI which means that 2) discussing those actions is guilt by association. How is that an empty assertion? You've heard the same thing from numerous other editors. Also Picard is not notable because she signed the petition ... that assertion is in fact totally narcissistic. The NYT piece establishes quite clearly by selecting her as an example in their piece that she is already notable. Now just because she only popped up on the radar of those fighting against ID publicity after the NYT so recognized her, does not mean that she was not already notable. The current entry should make it abundantly clear that your assertion is false. The fact that you continue to make it, even now after the entry has been built up with reliable sources, baffles all around.PelleSmith (talk) 12:14, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

The sources link Picard to a petition and the petition to the Discovery Institute campaigns. Which is why the petition is even interesting in the first place, and her signature on it is even interesting. Is that so hard to understand? My goodness. This is not "guilt by association". You are acting as though signing this statement is something bad or evil or wrong or something to be ashamed of. You think that the Discovery Institute believes that? You think that creationists would claim that signing this petition makes you "guilty by association"? You think that intelligent design supporters would agree with your choice of words? You are making outrageous assertions and trying to state that appearing on this petition is something negative. On the contrary, I think it is something many are proud of it. You do not think Dembski is proud of his petition? What baffles all around is that a careful NPOV description of the facts, something that no longer violates WP:UNDUE (the previous complaint) still draws your ire. Why is that? Aw, I guess the problem was never really WP:UNDUE at all, was it? Nope, just some standard ID nonsense and whitewashing going on here folks. ---Filll (talk) 12:47, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

PS likes to argue "by fiat and fatwa". He just makes gratuitous declarations with no facts to back them up and no sources, in what appears to be a desperate attempt to whitewash the situation and to try to make the Discovery Institute look reasonable, completely buying into their propaganda. I am not surprised he does things by fatwa, considering his other editing interests.--Filll (talk) 11:51, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

I find this remark slanderous and will ask that you retract it. I am a non-religious person who believes in evolutionary theory and who finds no merits in intelligent design or in the work of the DI. I have already explained this. As to your comments about "fatwa" and my other editing interests you are getting very close to crossing more than slanderous lines. If you can only resort to name calling and implying that those who don't agree with your egregious desire to violate BLP must of course be brainwashed propagandists then your usefulness in this discussion is more than done. The editors you are arguing against are not POV warriors who support ID. Quite the opposite I don't think any of us believe in ID. We are all here because this crosses lines of decency and violates BLP. Again I ask you to retract your latest personal attack. I find it offensive.PelleSmith (talk) 12:06, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Ok I struck part of it. But tell me how I engaged in "name calling". Did I call you a "fatwa". Did I write "Wow there is PS, a big fatwa"? And I could care less what you believe frankly, except you are arguing for bad writing and obfuscation as near as I can tell. And did you know that making oblique legal threats like calling what I said "slander" is sufficient to have an administrative sanction levelled against you? And I have yet to understand how describing what this petition is "violates BLP" somehow. That is a load of hooey. And your arguments have been singularly uncompelling, over and over and over and over. But you do mix it in with plenty of WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT to create variety I guess.--Filll (talk) 12:19, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

While I appreciate the striking of reference to my other editing interests you didn't strike out the part about my "desperate attempt to ... make the Discovery Institute look reasonable, completely buying into their propaganda." I've said it before, but please do take this to some official channel. I'd love to hear what outside observers make of your accusations.PelleSmith (talk) 13:51, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Ok I reworded it slightly. Maybe you are not buying into their propaganda and repeating their positions and those of Moulton. Maybe it only appears that you are doing so, or you are doing so inadvertantly. Maybe you are only effectively buying into their propaganda, but not literally doing so. Maybe some might call this being an "unwitting dupe". Ok fair enough. But nevertheless, this pattern of obfuscation and mispresentation is quite characteristic of some well-funded and well-organized entites involved in this discussion who are promoting certain views and engaging in propaganda. Ok?--Filll (talk) 15:21, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

PS, you are missing the point. This person signed a petition in 2000 or so. Maybe she was duped into it. Maybe she was confused. Maybe she was just really really stupid. Maybe she was delusional. It does not matter. She signed. Now, for the last 8 years or so, over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over this petition has been used again and again and again and again and again in a massive multimillion dollar campaign to declare that science is nonsense and scientists are evil and on and on and on and on and on and on. On radio and on television and in state legislatures and in congress and in books and in newspapers and in magazines and in movies and on the internet and in court rooms. This has been an immense attack with public relations firms involved. Did you miss it somehow? Well no one who has not been in a coma in the United States could have missed this. Several people who signed the petition and realized that they had been lied to had themselves removed from the list. Several people who had signed the petition and realized that the petition was being used in ways they disagreed with made public announcements when questioned about it that they thought the uses the petition was being put to were wrong and it was deceitful. Picard was questioned, repeatedly by the New York Times. Her answer? Nothing. We asked her over and over and over. Her answer? Nothing. Several others have asked her over the last few years. Her answer? Nothing. Finally last fall, in November, she has issued a statement half distancing herself from the goals of the petition. Ok, so we report that. And what exactly is your problem? We have things partly clarified now. What is wrong with that exactly?--Filll (talk) 04:19, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

One of the biggest mistakes that writers of hyperlinked documents make is assuming too much of the readers and letting them just click for clarification of all the unfamiliar terms and all the details. This is extremely poor writing. A reader who has to constantly click to understand a piece of text will quickly get lost in a series of links, and not be able to read the original document and absorb the material. Just because hyperlinks exist on Wikipedia does not excuse us from writing clearly and accurately in a self-contained, self-explanatory manner.

We do a terrible disservice to readers to demand that they have to look everything up. For one thing, many people's internet connections are not able to cope with these sorts of demands. Also, many people's attention spans are not able to deal with this sort of sloppy writing. Our articles should be readable and accessible.

This idea that we can bury all the material in links 2 or 3 or 4 levels deep, and to heck with the needs of the reader is just outrageous and abusive. And the impression I get here is that people want to adopt this incredibly sloppy bad style of writing on purpose, to obscure the nature of this petition. Perhaps they believe it is embarassing to Picard. Perhaps they have bought into the intelligent design movement's strategy of obfuscation, to obscure the fact that Intelligent Design is just a form of creationism, and is essentially an anti-science religious movement that aims to roll back science to its position before the scientific revolution.

It does not really matter why people want to write vague sloppy inaccessible documents with no explanation of the details, demanding that readers have to click and click and click and click over and over and over on all kinds of wikilinked terms to understand an article. The bottom line is, we should not be asking anyone to do this. It is lousy writing. It stinks. And we should not stand for it.--Filll (talk) 04:09, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Filll, this coat is getting very heavy on my shoulders. Do you have anything for me to hang it on? That's it for me. Adios.PelleSmith (talk) 04:17, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

So I guess you are in favor of lousy writing then and incomprehensibility and illiteracy? Ah ok fair enough. Well dont let the door hit you...--Filll (talk) 04:22, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Per the biographies of living persons policy, we have no evidence to suggest that Picard endorses or supports its use to promote the teaching of ID in schools. The fact is, the petition, in its plain language, states that the signatories "are skeptical of claims for the ability of random mutation and natural selection to account for the complexity of life. Careful examination of the evidence for Darwinian theory should be encouraged." It says nothing about intelligent design. What the Discovery Institute may or may not have used the petition to do, is irrelevant. There is no substantive "controversy" over evolution in the scientific community - which is why "Teach the Controversy" is bullshit. But there is no evidence that Picard supports this effort. She signed a statement saying she's skeptical of Darwinian evolution. I think she's flat wrong, but it's not a "crime against science" to say so. Nor may you use that fact as a coatrack to hang the DI's neo-Luddite ID-in-schools efforts on her, unless you have reliable sources saying that she endorses that. We may not make any inferences about her silence. That is prohibited original research and synthesis. It is a fact she has signed the statement. Anything beyond that is coatracking. This is not an article about the Discovery Institute and their campaign. This is an article about a living person who has done nothing more than affix her name to a two-line statement that says she questions evolution. Guilt by association is not acceptable in biographies of living persons. There are plenty of articles which make it clear what this is about. We are not going to turn every single biography of every single signatory into a rehash of the ID debate. That is right out. FCYTravis (talk) 05:33, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Do you deny that Teach the controversy exists? Why are you so frantic to deny readers any information about this "denialism" petition? One or two words describing what it is and what the Discovery Institute is are completely reasonable. And who said that Picard subscribed to all the Discovery Institute agenda? In fact, we now have sources that after 8 years, she has decided to distance herself, at least partly, from some of their agenda.--Filll (talk) 11:51, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

we have no evidence to suggest that Picard endorses or supports its use to promote the teaching of ID in schools

Irrelevant - it's our job to explain what the petition is. We can't just say "she signed X". Now go figure out for yourself what that is.

The fact is, the petition, in its plain language, states that the signatories "are skeptical of claims for the ability of random mutation and natural selection to account for the complexity of life. Careful examination of the evidence for Darwinian theory should be encouraged." It says nothing about intelligent design.

So you have taken it upon yourself to replace reliable sources with your own opinion? Your own reading of the document should supplant sources? Nope - we have a policy which precludes that sort of behaviour.

What the Discovery Institute may or may not have used the petition to do, is irrelevant.

Again, nope. We work from sources not from "plain reading" that ignores context and reality.

There is no substantive "controversy" over evolution in the scientific community - which is why "Teach the Controversy" is bullshit. But there is no evidence that Picard supports this effort.

Interesting, but irrelevant to this article. It doesn't say that she does, and I don't think it ever has.

She signed a statement saying she's skeptical of Darwinian evolution. I think she's flat wrong, but it's not a "crime against science" to say so.

Again, this isn't about your opinion.

Nor may you use that fact as a coatrack to hang the DI's neo-Luddite ID-in-schools efforts on her, unless you have reliable sources saying that she endorses that.

The statements in the article are sourced.

That is prohibited original research and synthesis. It is a fact she has signed the statement. Anything beyond that is coatracking

I'm really not sure what article you're talking about. Surely not this one?

This is not an article about the Discovery Institute and their campaign. This is an article about a living person who has done nothing more than affix her name to a two-line statement that says she questions evolution. Guilt by association is not acceptable in biographies of living persons. There are plenty of articles which make it clear what this is about. We are not going to turn every single biography of every single signatory into a rehash of the ID debate. That is right out.

We need to provide context. She signed this petition. The average reader would say "what's that?" If we want to write a good article, it's our job to explain what things are. You seem rather worked up against ID. Perhaps your dislike for them has clouded your judgment. The article you are describing isn't the one we have written. Please calm down, and take a second look at the article. The one you seem so upset about doesn't resemble the one we have here. Guettarda (talk) 05:44, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

It's not about your opinion either. She signed a petition saying that she is "skeptical of claims for the ability of random mutation and natural selection to account for the complexity of life. Careful examination of the evidence for Darwinian theory should be encouraged." You may not use that statement to make any further inferences about her beliefs and her opinion of intelligent design. This article is about her, not the so-called petition. If you want to go on and on about the petition, there's a perfectly good article you can use to explain the different views of what the petition means. We do not need to create guilt by association by explaining it in detail here. FCYTravis (talk) 05:51, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Look - you can't replace sourced content with your "plain reading". More importantly, why are you removing sourced opinion from the article? Do stop. Guettarda (talk) 06:00, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

I understand that you are dead set against using any description of the petition other than your own. That's OR, but I suppose you are too worked up to see that. But I really can't figure out why you have chosen to replace Petricevic's take on Picard's opinion with your own. Really, when you find yourself in the position where your own opinion trumps those of articles about Picard, you really need to take a deep breath, stop, have a drink - something to step away from the computer for at least a few minutes. Guettarda (talk) 06:06, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Descriptions of what the DI does with the petition are not "descriptions of the petition." Can you please explain why you keep on making this claim about providing an explanation of what the "petition is" when you are actually providing an explanation of "what the petition is ... used for." Also I challenge you to show where in the NYT article or any other that actually connects Picard to the petition it is implied that she has anything to do with "what the petition is used for."PelleSmith (talk) 11:44, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

There are many ways to describe the petition. I could describe it as a file on a computer, which would be completely accurate, but not useful. I could describe it as a list of words, which would be completely accurate, but not useful. I could describe it as a list of names, which again is completely accurate, but not useful. None of these sorts of "descriptions" are wrong, but they are worthless to the reader. You are arguing in favor of a completely worthless but accurate description that serves the needs of those who use this petition for propaganda, which is its most accurate description. Why are you so anxious to buy into the agenda of those who created the propaganda? Do you really think that describes the petition best? --Filll (talk) 11:58, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

You haven't yet explained why we need to explain what the petition is. So far I have heard no explanation for that except Raul's "what if someone prints the article out?" which is argument on par with all his others on this page, viz. pretty useless. I have reworded it, and unless in the next 12 hours a good reason is provided, I shall remove it. --Relata refero (disp.) 06:17, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Really?[4], [5], [6], [7]. For someone who seems to prefer condescending remarks to actually addressing the underlying question[8], you seem pretty unwilling to take your own advice and, you know, actually read what people said. Guettarda (talk) 07:23, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

I made it quite clear that all those were pretty poor arguments. I addressed (1) specifically, (2) has been answered already in that explanation is problematic when it becomes caricature, (3) and (4) are based on the demonstrably false premise that Picard's notability rests on this petty petition. Next time take your own advice on taking my advice and don't just read what you have written, read the replies.

Our job isn't to provide "context" that is a coatrack for "look at this horrible creationist." Our job is to say "she signed this petition, which some people, most of whom are apparently on Wikipedia, think is a big deal." --Relata refero (disp.) 07:48, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

So are you saying that our job isn't to provide context, or it isn't to provide context to people who you think are horrible? No matter how much you dislike her, you need to set your opinions aside. In the last year or so, I can't recall anyone saying "look at this horrible creationist". Quite frankly, I don't think anyone has even called her a creationist. Read what the article says, not what you imagine it saying. Guettarda (talk) 08:40, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Funny.

To clarify: Our job isn't to provide additional material to articles that is purportedly for context but works instead to coatrack in negative opinion not directly addressed at the bio subject in reliable sources. (And as for the rest, as far as I am concerned ID=creationist. I imagine thats true for you as well.) --Relata refero (disp.) 08:57, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Our job is not to explain the information in our articles clearly? My that is new to me. I thought we were writing an encyclopedia here. And I could care less about what you believe about ID and creationism. Me thinketh you do protesteth too much, especially as I have seen the kind of weak cases here and elsewhere you have tried to make over and over and over and over against all reason and consensus.--Filll (talk) 12:27, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Oh dear, someone's upset and sputtering. Never mind. What you need to focus on is whether this supposed context is directly linked to Picard. If not, it doesn't belong, since this petition is not relevant to her notability, except I suppose to the sort of person who uses Wikipedia for political activism, of which sort I am sure we have none round here.

Thanks for the lack of caring about my opinion, btw. That doesn't affect how I edit. You might want to give that approach a try, its what we expect from our good editors. --Relata refero (disp.) 13:35, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Don't pat yourself on the back too much. This is all your own fantasy. I am not upset. And I guess you just have a problem with reading sources. That undercuts the entire point of an encyclopedia, to misrepresent what a source says. And I am not the one engaged in activism and broadcasting my personal beliefs over and over and over. I am not the person making the outrageous claims over and over and over against policy and consensus. And I would not take anything from you as definitive about what a "good" editor should do; you are not the arbiter of what is "good editing" here, or had you not noticed that?--Filll (talk) 14:01, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

My dear fellow, I wasn't patting myself on the back, I was making excuses for you by saying that you must be upset. Still, if you wish to make those excuses redundant...

I agree misrepresenting sources is a major problem. Can you point to which sources are being misrepresented?

Sorry, which personal beliefs am I broadcasting over and over? I only ever have made two claims to personal belief in my time here, and both were to you, weeks apart. Oh, except for the bit where I confess to a CoI because I've written a creationist textbook and my children will starve if the article on Picard doesn't recommend that schools in Georgia use it to teach biology. (Now that is an outrageous claim.) --Relata refero (disp.) 14:06, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

<ri>So, apart from (a) good writing style, and (b) not requiring people on slow connections to click through every time they come across an unfamiliar concept...apart from, you know, trying to write something that someone could actually read and understand, yes, there's the added point that if someone printed off the article they'd have no clue what was going on...apart from trying to write something that's useful to the reader, I can't see any reason to include that sentence. Nor can I, of course, see any reason to produce an encyclopaedia at all. So after you discard "usefulness" from the list of reasons for producing an encyclopaedia, what's left? The MMORPG aspect of Wikipedia? I'll pass on that one, and stick to the idea of trying to produce articles that are useful to readers. Since without readers, we really do have no reason to be here. Guettarda (talk) 07:30, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

If they don't have a clue, that means the petition perhaps isn't notable at all... are you suggesting we delete it? --Relata refero (disp.) 07:48, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Is that seriously what you take away from what I had to say? You really think that we should delete content from articles that the average user would be unaware of? Guettarda (talk) 08:40, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

It's an argument that has parity with yours in nuance, which is why I made it. WP is supposed to be both useful and not indiscriminate. --Relata refero (disp.) 08:54, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

The page is certainly more balanced than it was a few days ago, with the addition of her own, actual, views on the subject. Technically, it still needs another source that specifically says DI is using the petition for its campaign, like this one, which should be copied over. We can disagree on whether the NYT cite says this, but I can't see an objection to making it clear by adding another source. - Merzbow (talk) 07:50, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

The interesting thing is that I don't think any of us ever questioned how the DI was using the petition. The problem is that editors here are falsely suggesting that the NYT not only named Picard as a signer, but also implicated her in some larger scheme, like the one practiced by the DI. That is simply false. Either those making this argument are so inundated by the larger literature that they cannot divorce it from the NYT article or what is known about Picard, or they are being consciously disingenuous with the "that's what the sources say" argument. That is not what the only source listing Picard says ... not one iota. I think an explanation is in order. I've answered this claim several times above, when text from the NYT has been quoted, and not surprisingly the trail ends with my answer, then hours later miles down the discussion it pops up again with accusations that we want to twist the sources around. Hogwash. The source says nothing of the sort. It only says the woman signed a petition.PelleSmith (talk) 11:38, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Hogwash yourself. The source sets out the implications and use of the petition, and notes that Picard signed it. Five years after signing it, she was still giving it de facto suppoort, almost two years later she issued the disclaimer. We note the essential facts, concisely letting the reader know what it's all about without having to follow links and without drawing any conclusions beyond the sources. ..dave souza, talk 12:16, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

That's OR and you know it. You don't have a source that claims that "five years after signing it, she was still giving it de facto support." The inferences you draw from the fact that, as far as you know, she has never distanced herself from the petition are, however reasonable they may seem, not relevant here. I don't doubt that this woman believes something very akin to ID, and the interview with her clearly articulates this, but again, the issue here is that we DO NOT attribute beliefs to living persons that we cannot source. Please explain to me what is so evil about trying to keep an entry inline with that idea.PelleSmith (talk) 13:38, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

The OR part is only relevant in the article. Was that in the article? Somehow I missed that. We know much more than is in the article of course. Including other published statements of Picard that I alluded to that support ID. What you seem to forget is that she signed the petition about 2000. Several years later the NYT contacted her for comment. Over and over and over and over. She refused to clarify her comment. We have the emails from the NYT reporter describing this. We had numerous conversations with Picard and her associates asking for a statement to clarify the position since her associates were frantic to reword this article. Although statements were promised, nothing was forthcoming. So I think we can take that as evidence of something. I would not suggest it go in the article, but it is something we know. As always happens in writing these articles; the editors know far more than appears in the article. Is that a problem for you?--Filll (talk) 13:47, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

If these facts relating to your own research activities and inferences do not relate to the entry then I suggest you stop bringing them up. They have been brought in to justify what is in the entry, which is no better. Nice try to confuse the issue, but your independent research and conclusions about someone's beliefs and motivations does not justify the "guilt by association" approach you take anymore than they belong literally in the entry.PelleSmith (talk) 13:54, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Our job here is to provide information in a succinct and accessible form. The sources say a woman signed a petition. The reason she appeared in the NYT is she signed a very unusual petition for someone in her position. A singularly unusual petition. What makes it so interesting that the NYT would even write about it? Well that is what makes it newsworthy. And that is what makes it notable for Wikipedia, isnt it?

Look on the front page there are lists of awards she has won. About 90 percent of those are meaningless and should probably be removed, because they are not interesting and not notable and we have no context for understanding them in the article. It reads like a CV, and that is not what Wikipedia is supposed to be.

You would have us state that this woman appeared in the NYT for something that she did that was surprising given who she is, but we cannot tell you why it was surprising and why the NYT wrote about her and what it was that she did, aside from putting her name on a list. We cannot tell you more about the list or why the list is interesting to the NYT.

People who wanted to make your sorts of arguments months ago tried to argue that the NYT was not a good source, or that we should include a paragraph or two about what a piece of incompetent disreputable $#%^& the NYT is. They wanted to call this "good online journalistic ethics". You want to call what we are doing "twisting the sources". Amounts to about the same. Nonsense.--Filll (talk) 12:35, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Yep. So aside from Relato's string of rude and insulting comments, and Travis' declaration that his OR trumps sourced statements, is there any reason that we should not explain the petition? Quite simply, if there's a BLP problem with explaining the statement, there's a BLP problem with including the fact that she signed the statement. But we have have a rock solid source that discusses her signing the statement. So obviously - we include the fact that she signed the statement. Which means that, unless we have abandoned the idea that we are supposed to supply information to readers, we explain what the heck we're talking about. I have yet to see someone come up with a coherent reason why we don't explain things we refer to in articles. Guettarda (talk) 15:04, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

My string of... wha-? Examples?

I'll let FCYT defend himself.

We don't "explain" things in the way you mean, ever. We provide context and link an article. That's it. We particularly try and avoid little caricatures of political hot-button issues. Well, when I say "we".... --Relata refero (disp.) 15:14, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

I agree with Guettarda -- while I've disagreed with other users here (like Travis) I think their participation has been, on the whole, a good thing. The same is not true of Relata, whose participation here has consisted mostly of insulting other editors and divorced-from-reality claims about both the merits of the petition and its effects. Raul654 (talk) 15:20, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Unlike your participation, which first claimed that this person was not notable for anything except the petition and then said we regularly keep articles on people notable only for one thing? (Oh, and asking for a citation for the statement that the NYT focuses more on politics than science.) Right.

If you have specific diffs to cite about my involvement do so, otherwise discuss the article, please. Or answer any of the many questions. --Relata refero (disp.) 15:24, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

I stand by all my above statements - she is notable for one thing (signing the petition), we do have articles on people notable for just one thing (and I named two classes of those articles - one-hit-wonder musicians and internet memes), and yes, I did ask for a citation for your ludicrious claim that "The bar for inclusion in the NYT in terms of participation in a hot-button dispute is considerably lower than otherwise". I notice you still haven't provided one.

As for you, you have been rude and insulting since the moment you got here, and I for one have just about had my fill:

• "You have a point here, perhaps? "
• "If you feel like stating four irrelevant things before breakfast who am I to stop you?"
• "Sad that you haven't moved on from that...."
• "Right above you. if you squint sideways at the top of this page, and the light is good, you might get to see the title of this page."
• "which is argument on par with all his others on this page, viz. pretty useless."
• "Next time take your own advice on taking my advice and don't just read what you have written, read the replies."
• "Right, does any of that impact the article? Otherwise this isn't a forum, so perhaps you could just remove it, unless its meant to be light comic relief."
• "Oh dear, someone's upset and sputtering."
• "You might want to give that approach a try, its what we expect from our good editors."
• "My dear fellow, I wasn't patting myself on the back, I was making excuses for you by saying that you must be upset. Still, if you wish to make those excuses redundant"
• "It is unfortunate that Picard has not spoken to you, but I begin to see a glimmering of what might have warned her not to."

You will be civil on this page, or I will block you myself. Is this clear? Raul654 (talk) 16:14, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Boy, are you completely and utterly out of line with this. You have, to start off with, no business threatening to block someone with whom you are involved in a disagreement, as per plenty of recent discussion. More on that later.

• "You have a point here, perhaps?" is neither rude nor insulting when quoted completely: "Are you unaware that the political pages of the NYT are largely irrelevant to an academic's career?", which is a direct response to the pseudo-statistic you quoted.
• "If you feel like stating four irrelevant things before breakfast who am I to stop you?" follows a description of why the four things are irrelevant, and in response to a statement that said "wants to edit war and generally march around in high dudgeon here". It is also humourous, and an attempt to defuse tension with reference to a children's classic.
• "Sad that you haven't moved on from that...." is a direct response to (a) "Better educate yourself before you commit another faux pas" and (b) a claim that I haven't moved on from "that". Yet I am uncivil?
• "Right above you. if you squint sideways at the top of this page, and the light is good, you might get to see the title of this page." Again, the entire statement reads ".. this page. It says "Rosalind Picard". It does not say "Discovery Institute". This potty little signature is a tiny infinitesmal fraction of her notability except for those obsessed with this petty political debate." Explain to me how you think that is rude rather than just something you disagree with.
• "which is argument on par with all his others on this page, viz. pretty useless." Sorry, this one was directed at you. Yet I understand that current interpretation of incivility regulations do not mean that we extend our respect for editors to respect for their arguments. Has this changed?
• "Right, does any of that impact the article? Otherwise this isn't a forum, so perhaps you could just remove it, unless its meant to be light comic relief" is a pretty mild response to being accused of being disingenous or an "intellectual cousin" of Ben Stein, wouldn't you say?
• "Upset and sputtering" - wow. That was actually the mildest possible response to a claim that I was a creationist POV-pusher: "Me thinketh you do protesteth too much, especially as I have seen the kind of weak cases here and elsewhere you have tried to make over and over and over and over against all reason and consensus." especially as I continues "... Never mind. What you need to focus on.." and resume discussing the article, something which the other person wasn't doing.
• "You might want to give that approach a try, its what we expect from our good editors." I have nothing to say. I don't have to assume every editor is a good editor, only that they edit in good faith. I definitely don't have to assume that when invective is being hurled at me.
• "My dear fellow, I wasn't patting myself on the back, I was making excuses for you by saying that you must be upset. Still, if you wish to make those excuses redundant" - you're not even trying now. What on earth is rude about that?
• "It is unfortunate that Picard has not spoken to you, but I begin to see a glimmering of what might have warned her not to" is again, remarkably mild.

To sum up: you have little or no case that any one of those above statements meets the standards set out in Wikipedia:Civility#Engaging in incivility.

You also seem to have forgotten that you aren't supposed to block someone with whom you are disagreeing over content; and the recent responses to blocks of MONGO and Giano should have amply demonstrated that the community has no tolerance for those who block people for incivility in response to perceived incivility directed at them - or in response to a direct request from an admin who has been the target of that perceived incivility.

Please don't repeat this threat, or I will escalate this to AN/I, something I never do. --Relata refero (disp.) 18:28, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Raul, your enjoinder to be civil would carry a little more weight if you applied such requests more evenly. While I wish Relata had done a little less wise-cracking in the middle of a heated debate, there was certainly an abundance of incivility on the other side of the argument. We all have our biases, so please consider how yours might be affecting you in this case. Sχeptomaniac^{χαιρετε} 23:19, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Yes - that was at the heart of the BLP issue to begin with. This is not an article about the petition, it is an article about Picard. We should say Picard signed the petition, but there's no need to go into the long history of the petition here rather than on the article that is devoted to it. The version of the article yesterday morning was a textbook example of WP:COATRACK. The present version is significantly improved in my opinion. — Carl (CBM · talk) 15:09, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

I am totally mystified about why people want to continue to fight about this. About 10 months ago, we removed a copyright violation. People claimed we had an WP:UNDUE problem. Ok now that is fixed. People claimed Picard did not mean to sign the petition so we had a WP:BLP problem. So we asked for clarification and we now have it. So what is the problem? Why are people so frantic to continue to fight unless there really is something else driving this? --Filll (talk) 15:14, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Ottava Rima

Ottava Rima works her magic

And yet the meaning is obscured

In a way that truly is so tragic

but by many is ignored

The truth she hides in a whitewash attic

Where other myths are stored

None of which’s held in high regard

When the alleg’d victim is Rose Picard. &#0149;Jim62sch&#0149;^dissera! 00:10, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

To dance a dance, one must follow in turn
Iambic form, or will their partner go;
Stay with the beat or be you forced to yearn,
And crave after meaning! Will you say no?
Your form is brute, your words do only burn
Paltry readers, whose delicate minds so
Desiring beauty and all they will get
Is unpolished words saying only
- :) Ottava Rima (talk) 01:20, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

To dance a dance without stepping 'pon feet

To hear the song in their ears with a hum

That gathers long the imperial beat

That peasants hear as funereal drums

And yet as I in th'Imperial seat

Care not a whit for the bleating of bums

For they whine in tune to the sounds of night

Mistaking joy for their incessive plight.  :) &#0149;Jim62sch&#0149;^dissera! 01:52, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

To wash some whites, to bleach the rest,

Quietly now, or they shall hear;

The topic long past, that awful pest

Why ever would one keep it near?

A quicker pace, a turn thats best

And words that shall confuse a seer:

The topic we can soon ignore,

Because wasn't it just a bore?

- :) Ottava Rima (talk)

That topic past, today it burns,

That topic passed, in olden days

As truth t'all to whom hea'n yearned

The Primal dream of the godly gaze

Still they flock, hist'ry unlearned

to learn is naught but to be amased

By fairy tales and other dreams

Virtue engender'd is all it seems.  :) &#0149;Jim62sch&#0149;^dissera! 02:20, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Is that whisper heard I come near

Messenger of that coming night?

Sweet death's little brother none fear

And few of him would ever fright,

But he of course can make it clear

To silence words with his soft might.

And as the moon beckons me so

I'm 'fraid that I must stop and go.

- Ottava Rima (talk) 03:40, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

I must quit drinking the bong water. OrangeMarlin ^{Talk• Contributions} 02:55, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

A new day rises from the bong

Of life and its secrets beheld

'Til sweet death's brother comes along;

Was not by fear many were felled

But 'pon hearing the dirgy song

They curl up and die, bloodless wells

Nay I must stop, ‘tis misery

To speak of death on wiki-P. &#0149;Jim62sch&#0149;^dissera! 18:33, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia Unbound

Of editors, partisans, and those

Of themselves only they care that I sing,

In times when issues not import, I suppose,

Take precedence over those who can bring

Great changes, just helpful; though we once chose

To make Verify and Civil our king,

But these great monarchs now apparent slain,

Leaving only Mischief and Discord reign.

And when editors continue their way,

Constant bicker and controversy stale,

I will tell things not attempted today:

The fight is pointless, the matter is pale,

(In compare with other pages I say)

So why join Frenzy, Whine, Complain and Rail?

By poor talents sufficient for the task

I will before all the matter unmask.

Most generous people (and those of less),

I beseech you to listen to my plea

And stop this redundant editing mess;

Thats all I want, all that ever can be,

Since circular fighting is all I see.

Does she matter, really? To you or me?

I think not. But she is a person, now,

And then why all of this struggle allow?

Simply I put, and simply it is now

To see that she is just a scientist,

But not, it seems, of research's sacred cow

A worshiper, of "fact" in its purest.

Instead she of faith and cynic allow

Doubt to exist; Really? Is this the gist?

A simple signature proves anything not

But causes problems, and thats what we got.

Stop your fighting, please go along your way!

One line, two lines, does it even matter?

What do you hope to prove now if you stay?

But of course, the attacks are to flatter

Opinions, this is clear as night and day.

Why not think of others, stop the clatter,

And go edit pages that dire need work

Instead of staying here to fight and lurk.

I tell you this (and I beseech you all!)

She doesn't matter, her import too low,

She can't harm to you bring, her power small,

Nor does she care of which way that you go

But only of her self and of how you call

Negative 'tention upon her page so;

Tis said, tis hurts, to be part of dispute

That seeks only to ruin one's repute.

Many are details left and details right

Fly around the page like mock angels warre,

Heavenly knights that are of Milton's sight,

And want to take this epic challenge more.

But does this prove your editing might

When in this page trapp'd by Drama's lure?

There is no reason found during this age

To claim such things ever increase a page.

But fight on ye will, oh how you care not!

So far, now, you continue on and on,

And, by you, shall this be poor Wiki's lot

To be cast aside for your egos fawn.

Are there none out there dismayed and distraught?

Oh Fate! Oh Fortune! Whichever you don,

Please free the abused from your horrid clutch.

How can my words really implore too much?

False warriors fight and rage upon the field,

Editing whatever they want and care

Without ever wanting to stop or yield

An inch of this ground that we all should share.

But Truth, though battered, away not yet sealed

Still guides us; sweet Beauty tries to prepare

A time and place when the fighting will stop,

When we will all be willing to co-op.

The time is now here, the time has not past,

Now, lay down your arms and look at it clear

And witness the destruction that comes fast

From petty fighting. Don't you see? I fear

That few will realize, or come to at last,

There lacks a point. Wiki to us is dear,

So why don't we treat her well and show care

By stopping this fighting over split hair?

- Ottava Rima (talk) 13:40, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

OK, that was good - very good in fact. I don't necessarily mean that as an endorsement of the gist, but I'm quite impressed -- and I'm not easily impressed. In fact, it reminds me a bit of Byron's Don Juan. Very cool. &#0149;Jim62sch&#0149;^dissera! 21:39, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Link to Affective computing?

Maybe link the top Affective Computing to the relevant article? Although Fill, Jim and OrangeMarlin seem to have done what is best described as "revenge editing" there...

/sigh 195.216.82.210 (talk) 11:08, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Please AGF. They're all mature individuals, I'm sure they wouldn't do anything so painfully juvenile. --Relata refero (disp.) 11:19, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Hmm its been done jumped the gun. 195.216.82.210 (talk) 11:09, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

What on earth is your problem? Have you seen what a lousy article that is?--Filll (talk) 11:44, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, its lousy, especially after being torn apart :) however that is most likely going to be discussed over there. 195.216.82.210 (talk) 13:59, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

So get yourself an account and fix it. Make sure you include a more accurate history about how the Japanese were doing affective computing years and years and years before Picard.--Filll (talk) 14:39, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

The article is crap and needs fixing, or rather, major reconstruction. The English is poor, numerous claims are unsubstantiated and uncited, much of it is vague, etc. In essense, in reading the article one learns nothing. &#0149;Jim62sch&#0149;^dissera! 17:47, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Actually I did, I went through all the sources after my interest had been sparked ;) The article described (past tense) the field rather well, now its a pain to read. I just wonder that you went over there after being rebuffed here, to tear it to pieces, and then expect others to fix the shambles. ALSO: YOU are the only one claiming the japanese did research, so why should I bother to find the sources? I claim the sky is green, now you find me the sources for that kk tx bye. (oh, and I have an account, I just don't use it cause hiding behind a screen name when editing an "Encyclopedia" is... odd 195.216.82.210 (talk) 07:00, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Question

Being WP:BOLD with perhaps a touch of WP:IAR, I've archived this thread speedily with no action.

'Twould drama generate

and mountains of hate

consuming the kilobytes endless,

all indexed by Google

to boggle your noodle.

So this is one time when more is less.

- Original doggerel by Durova; GDFL licensed (if anybody cares)

Let's give this a month's breather and reopen if anyone still sees a need. Durova^Charge! 00:42, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Archived without action?

Will that gain traction?

So far it's hard to tell;

But archived now it is

All part of the Wiki biz

Though the author may wish us to go to hell.  :) &#0149;Jim62sch&#0149;^dissera! 05:09, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Hilarious

Every time there is some complaint about this article, and it finally gets answered, then some new complaint "magically" appears. Makes me think that we have some who are being disingenuous, or who are only here to fight. For example:

• At first it was claimed there was a problem with WP:UNDUE after we removed violations of copyright. That is no longer a problem but people continue to fight even after there is a lot more material about the main part of her career in the article. I guess that really was not a concern after all, was it?

• It was claimed over and over that Picard did not really subscribe to the statement on the petition, because she had been tricked into signing a blank petition, or a new header was used to frame it, or it was used for purposes she did not agree with. We were bullied because we did not write material attacking the New York Times for bad reporting or incompetence or lousy investigation or being dishonest etc. It was claimed that Wikipedia was therefore violating "journalistic ethical standards". Surprisingly, one dufus after another bought into this ridiculous argument. The proponents of this view were offered the opportunity to find us another source correcting this and balancing things for months and months, by at least 3 Wikipedia editors. There were at least 10 emails and several phone calls exchanged trying to encourage some information that corrected this. Nothing was forthcoming for months and months. All we had were complaints and whining. Now finally we have a partial statement satisfying our request, many months later. And so we include it. Does that satisfy those who are complaining? No, of course not. I guess that really was not a concern after all, was it?

• It was claimed that intelligent design was a completely reasonable approach and therefore Picard should not be vilified for subscribing to it. But if it is reasonable, and there is no shame associated with it, why fight so hard to keep all mention of it out of the article? Makes ZERO sense. Now again we have hordes of editors who claim that they do not believe in ID and ID is crap, but why is ID crap? Why is it a bad thing to subscribe to? We have only a minimal statement from Picard to go on that she disagrees with some of it. Ok fair enough, we report that. But somehow people want to have it both ways; that ID is reasonable and one should be proud of supporting it but arguing at the same time that ID is not reasonable and it is embarassing to be associated with it. Sorry people, you cannot argue both at the same time. It really makes no sense. Why not just report it as it is, and leave the value judgements about whether ID is good or not to someone else, like our sources?

• We have people misinterpreting sources like the New York Times, over and over and over for months. It was claimed that tne New York Times never reported that Picard signed, but it did. It was claimed that the New York Times never described what the petition is or what it is used for, but it did. It is claimed that no sources describe the petition as being part of the Discovery Institute campaigns against evolution, but we of course have hundreds if not thousands of such sources. It is claimed that the petition is not used as an attack on evolution, when of course when it was first announced it was titled as a Dissent from Darwinism, where Darwinism is the Discovery Institute (and creationist) name for evolution, and even, thanks to Phillip E. Johnson, all of science and engineering since the Scientific Revolution (that is, methodological naturalism and materialism). This is the same game your ideological cousins who made Expelled:No Intelligence Allowed want to play. Make one sort of statement to the base, and then deny it was said. Well that won't fly here. We are trying to write an encyclopedia. And buying into propaganda and obfuscation does not serve our readers well. We will not be just quoting the Discovery Institute or Premise Media or the Swift Boat Public Relations firm for our sources. Sorry.--Filll (talk) 13:09, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Right, does any of that impact the article? Otherwise this isn't a forum, so perhaps you could just remove it, unless its meant to be light comic relief. (I don't get paid by the Discovery Institute unless I get results both on the article page and on the talkpage.)--Relata refero (disp.) 13:30, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Of course it impacts the article. It describes the viscious fighting that is going on to obscure the truth and whitewash the situation. And puts a spotlight on some of the activities of editors here who should know better than to engage in this sort of behavior.--Filll (talk) 13:52, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Filll past arguments are not apropos to the current discussion. Please attribute the accusations that so unattributed only function to erect a straw man.

1. Who has argued that Picard "had been tricked into signing a blank petition?"
2. Who has argued that "ID is reasonable and one should be proud of supporting it?"
3. Who has argued that the "New York times never reported that she signed?"
4. Who has argued that "no sources describe the petition as being part of the Discovery Institute campaigns against evolution?"
5. Who has argued that "the petition is not used as an attack on evolution?"

Who are your interlocutors here Filll? A phantom army of the ghosts of editors past? I see none of these arguments made by any of the editors arguing here. Please attribute these accusations, or admit that they are not actually directed towards anyone presently arguing against you. Thanks.PelleSmith (talk) 13:33, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

You know, you are not editing this article in a vaccuum. There is a history. You might want to read it and see why it was created and how it evolved over the months and what the arguments were about and why it was written the way it was written. Since you want to fight and fight and fight, maybe you should know some background, don't you think? And actually when some editors here make the exact same edits as departed editors and banned editors, appearing to engage in proxy editing for banned editors (which is grounds for immediate banning), and we have substantial evidence of recruiting of meat puppets (which again is grounds for banning of the puppets), then this is a matter of concern for the writing of this article. So this is relevant. Quite.--Filll (talk) 13:52, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the answer: NONE CURRENTLY HERE IS MAKING ANY OF THOSE CLAIMS. Are you accusing anyone currently here of editing by proxy or as a meat puppet btw? I'm truly sorry if you had editors here making the claims that you have highlighted, but if those editors have now departed and those issues have now been dealt with then your history lesson is not apropos, and it is disingenuous since it suggests that your current interlocutors are making these claims. Of course, given what you want to keep in the entry, I don't find it particularly surprising that you would employ such tactics. Anyone who signs the petition is a pawn of the DI, and anyone who opposes your edits must also subscribe to the above ludicrous claims. Please take Relata's advice and remove the history lesson unless it has some relevance to the current discussion.PelleSmith (talk) 14:01, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Well, there have undoubtedly been problems in the past. However, there have been great improvements to the article generally in the last couple of days. I think everyone's agreed that the petition issue has to be covered properly, and at least there's no longer any question of it taking up a dispropotionately large part of the article. .. dave souza, talk 13:57, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Why are you calling it a "whitewash" was the signing a bad thing? I just see an article about a LIVING human being that centered around ONE EVENT in her life and practicly ridiculed that, changed into an article that shows the accomplishments of this LIVING human being and highlights her achievements (the article on which you have shredded but hey alls fair it seems) and mentions the part about her signing (which seems oh so important to you) in passing, where it should be. The Wikipedia BLP's would be a WHOLE LOT better off if people remembered that they are writing about LIVING PEOPLE. Just because you disagree with someones statements doesn't mean you have to go to war against them o.O 195.216.82.210 (talk) 14:07, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

I have argued over and over and over and over and over for months on end that the signing was not a bad thing. And for people who want to hide it, they seem to be doing it because they believe it is somehow shameful or embarassing. So they are trying to whitewash this. That is just nonsense. As I said before, you cannot have it both ways; it is something to be proud of and something to be ashamed of, at the same time. She is not being ridiculed. As I said before, who is to say this is a shameful thing or a bad thing? Who is to say she is wrong? You are assuming I and others disagree with Picard. Why do you think that? I am not the one broadcasting my beliefs on this page over and over and over and over and over and over and over ad nauseum, even though my personal beliefs are irrelevant here. That is just nonsense. We are not going to war with Picard. We are trying to summarize an article in the New York Times that mentioned her. And many others want to use every means at their disposal to distort the record in the media, or to misrepresent it. And I am trying to prevent that distortion. Is that so hard to understand? I am also the one who has asked for months and months and months for more content about her career that is not plagiarized or cut and pasted from something protected by copyright. If this was so all fired important to people, they would have actually written something about her in the interening 9 or 10 months, don't you think? Instead, we get fighting. And as I pointed out, the complaints have been answered. And still we get fighting. Because clearly, the complaints were not the issue. There is something else going on here. Hmm....I wonder what?--Filll (talk) 14:19, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Well, apparently, sockpuppetry, meatpuppetry, CoI, and proxying for a banned editor. Have I left anything out? You're the expert. --Relata refero (disp.) 14:22, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Look WP:UNDUE has been answered, but you still fight. A personal statement from Picard has been included, but you still fight. There is continued misrepresentation of sources. And yes, we have reason to believe there is at least one here who is proxy editing for a banned user. And we have plenty of evidence of recruiting of meat puppets. We have some evidence of sock puppetry as well. So, if you fall in any of these categories, it is just a word to the wise. Watch your Ps and Qs. --Filll (talk) 14:10, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Answered where? Misrepresentation where? -- from the well-known meatpuppet and proxy for a banned editor Relata refero (disp.) 14:14, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Would you care to substantiate those claims: Which editor do you believe is proxy editing? Which editor do you believe is a sockpuppet (apart from the IP editors)? — Carl (CBM · talk) 14:16, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

All in good time. There is no rush, is there? And perhaps by this simple friendly caution, people will come to their senses and start to act sensibly instead.--Filll (talk) 14:21, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

I would like to invite you to consider taking part in the AGF Challenge which has been proposed for use in the RfA process [9] by User: Kim Bruning. You can answer in multiple choice format, or using essay answers, or anonymously. You can of course skip any parts of the Challenge you find objectionable or inadvisable. (Someone needs a refresher.) Kyaa the Catlord (talk) 14:23, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

ROFL. --Relata refero (disp.) 14:24, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

You believe that is following WP:AGF? Well I can see where your heads are at. Go ahead, you are characterizing yourself in a very interesting light. Don't let me stop you.--Filll (talk) 14:28, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Mr. Filll, I'd suggest walking away for a while. Maybe having some tea. I'm not involved with your dispute here, I'm just watching the page and don't think that being here is healthy for you right now. Kyaa the Catlord (talk) 14:32, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

KTC, don't think you are anonymous. And you should be ashamed of yourself.--Filll (talk) 14:37, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

And now you're issuing threats. Keep escalating, Mr. Filll. Kyaa the Catlord (talk) 14:41, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Please stop the veiled threats; nobody has mentioned KTC's anonymity, so it's very strange to see you bring it up out of the blue. Unless you have evidence to present about sockpuppetry of meatpuppetry, or proxying for banned eidtors, let's focus on the article. — Carl (CBM · talk) 14:42, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

And what threat is that? KTC parades himself around making outrageous statements on the internet. It is pretty much public knowledge. And yes the statements he makes are about this article and relevant to this article. A little investigation reveals a lot.--Filll (talk) 14:44, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

You have commented several times about proxying for banned editors, sockpuppeting, etc. and how this could result in banning. These things are irrelevant to this talk page; if you have evidence about them, please take it to ANI or Arbcom. Similarly, KTC's anonymity is not relevant here, nor are arguments made on other forums. We all need to focus on the content here, and on the arguments being made here, not on the people making them or on people who have contributed here before. — Carl (CBM · talk) 14:54, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

All in good time. I just believe that we should give people plenty of warning and lots of second and third and fourth chances, but if they continue, then we give them the rope to hang themselves. Do you not think we should try very hard to keep our fellow editors out of trouble?--Filll (talk) 14:57, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

If you wish to caution them, it would be preferable to use their individual talk pages rather than making generic warnings. In the meantime, please either present evidence or change the subject. We all need to focus on the article, not the editors. — Carl (CBM · talk) 15:02, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

With all due respect, I reserve the right to defend myself from repeated personal attacks. If it escalates further, I will move it to their talk pages, and to assorted noticeboards etc.--Filll (talk) 15:07, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

I welcome your efforts, sir. Please take this to ANI, please. Kyaa the Catlord (talk) 15:57, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

The method recommended by 4 out 5 dramamongers. Odd nature (talk) 17:26, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Filll am I to understand this statement to mean that the mounting evidence of proxy editing that you will deal with in due time refers to me personally? Please put up or shut up. You've accused everyone who doesn't agree with you of violating basic policy directed towards etiquette and now you're insinuating left and right that these people may in fact be violating some more serious policies by editing for banned editors. Please do consider this a personal attack, the one that took you over the line, and bring this to AN/I already. We will all benefit from some administrative scrutiny of your edits here. Cheers.PelleSmith (talk) 16:22, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

In case you have not noticed, there is already plenty of administrative scrutiny of this situation. And guess what? They do not appear to agree with your arguments. Oh well. And in addition, I will decline to accept the WP:BAIT.--Filll (talk) 16:26, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Now that's laughable. I see no administrative scrutiny here regarding anyone's behavior. Editors arguing points of content who happen to be administrators ... that's an entirely different matter. If you are not planning to take any of this AN/I I suggest you stop with the accusations and the insinuations. You're running yourself in a very obvious circle. Regards.PelleSmith (talk) 16:29, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Whatever.--Filll (talk) 16:54, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Article writing basics

The article lead says:

Picard is the author of Affective Computing, a text-book that describes the importance of recognizing human emotions to the relationships between people and the possible effects this recognition would have on robots

First we make a statement

Picard is the author of Affective Computing

Then we explain what it is

a text-book that describes the importance of recognizing human emotions to the relationships between people and the possible effects this recognition would have on robots

We would do that even if we had an article about the book. That's because we explain statements after we make them. According to Relato, we should delete this because people don't know about it. According to Travis, we should delete this because is isn't it based on third-party sources and it's attributing all sorts of crazy beliefs to the poor woman. Oh, and Travis and Relato would see this as a coatrack upon which we are using to try to create and attack on the woman's beliefs about robots.

Yes, this is all ridiculous. As is the venom with which a hundred new editors have descended on this article to fight for this person that they keep making horrible statements about. If you hate Picard with the fury you keep expressing, maybe you're too personally invested in this article. Guettarda (talk) 15:18, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

The fatal flaw in this argument is that we can source that statement about the book from the book itself. Attempts to do this with the petition have been overrided by you and others. In order to "explain" the petition, you claim, we must explain how the DI uses the petition. That is not akin to describing the contents of a book, but akin to explaining how the book is used by others. A description of the petition's contents would only amount to the statement about it being critical of Darwinism. Regards.PelleSmith (talk) 18:09, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

According to Relato, we should delete this because people don't know about it.

Relata. And that is not what I have said. Please do read the section you're misquoting again. (Also, where did either I or FCYT or anyone else say you were misquoting her beliefs about robots? This is getting surreal.)

What I and FCYT both claim is that discussion of the petition in this article is inappropriate. That's all. Others have claimed variously that it provides essential context or it provides information and thus cannot be removed (!!). Those are the only sets of arguments here that are at all relevant.

About your particular example above, may I point out that any summary of the book in a reliable source would directly link the subject of the book to the author? And the difference between that and the use of the petition should be obvious? --Relata refero (disp.) 16:06, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Guettarda appears to make a very compelling argument. Ok Relata refero, since no one knows about Picard, lets just AfD this mess. Seems like the same sort of reasoning. --Filll (talk) 16:28, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Another key difference is that there is another article on the petition, but not another article on the textbook. — Carl (CBM · talk) 16:30, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

So are you saying that if there were an article on the textbook that sentence should just read

Picard is the author of Affective Computing

Guettarda (talk) 16:52, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Strikes me as a singularly poor writing style. Nevertheless, that is what is being argued for.--Filll (talk) 16:56, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Re Guetarda, yes, that's the general idea; perhaps a one-clause description of the book could be included :But we are not that sparse with the description of the petition. The article currently says:

"Picard was one of 514 scientists and engineers who signed[21] "A Scientific Dissent from Darwinism", a controversial petition circulated by the Discovery Institute that questions evolution and is used by the institute to promote intelligent design."

So we do have a description of the petition in the article at the moment. Do you think that more description is needed, given that there is an entire article on the petition? If so, what would you like to see added? — Carl (CBM · talk) 17:05, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Obviously we have a brief description, although I think it could be better. But the dispute began with Krimpet's deletion of the entire description, and most of the voluminous comments by the anti- side above appear to be saying that we shouldn't have any description (Relata), or that we should not have any description beyond what can be gleaned from a "plain reading" of the petition (Travis; of course that's nonsense, since replacing the description provided by a secondary source with your own reading of a primary source is OR). So what I am trying to do is to establish that we should have a description of the document. We need to establish that baseline first. Once that's established, then we can move on to the second problem of what the description should say. Guettarda (talk) 17:16, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Obviously we have to have a brief description. The only question is whether we have one that repeats the DI's own rhetoric (obviously not) or one that simply states the aim of the petition. Currently the article repeats the DI's rhetoric. Odd nature (talk) 18:03, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

In what way does it do this? The current language is

"Picard was one of 514 scientists and engineers who signed "A Scientific Dissent from Darwinism", a controversial petition circulated by the Discovery Institute that questions evolution and is used by the institute to promote intelligent design."

In contrast, the previous language was

In February 2006, the New York Times reported that Picard was one of a small number of nationally prominent researchers, out of 514 scientists and engineers, whose names appeared on the Discovery Institute's controversial petition, "A Scientific Dissent From Darwinism". The petition, a two-sentence statement, has been widely used by its sponsor, the Discovery Institute, and some of its supporters in a national campaign to discredit evolution and to promote the teaching of intelligent design in public schools.

I think the newer language does a better job of not implicitly associating Picard with the DI merely by virtue of her signing the petition. For example, the original version leaves the question whether Picard is one of the "supporters" open. Also, Picard is not responsible for how the petition is used, the Discovery Institute is; but the older language seems to implicitly tie her to its use. The other quotes by Picard in the newer version also help to convey Picard's position in her own words. — Carl (CBM · talk) 18:17, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

I think that issue is a bit less important now that we have the language from the Windsor Record in which she distances herself from the ID movement even while expressing opinions which are similar to theirs. (Which makes sense - it's one thing to believe that "some things are too complex to have evolved", it's quite another to say "we can prove that scientifically". The first is an entirely reasonable belief. The second is at odds with reality.) Guettarda (talk) 18:29, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Yes, having a good source for her opinion (like her own words) makes a tremendous difference. — Carl (CBM · talk) 20:53, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

As much controversy that has been generated by this article...

I do congratulate those who have expanded the article greatly using reliable sources. Kudos to all. At least something positive is happening here. spryde | talk 15:55, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Thanks. Although many are extremely angry about the progress, clearly. Oh well.--Filll (talk) 16:29, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

I try. :) Ottava Rima (talk) 17:41, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Really? I didn't notice. Odd nature (talk) 18:01, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Decorum

Things have been very heated for a few days at this article. Google does index talk pages, unfortunately, and I'm concerned that some of the commentary here is indecorous. Let's remember that this is a living person's biography. Suggest a judicious early archiving of some of these threads, and/or implementing expandable box format. Durova^Charge! 17:25, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

If it wasn't for those walking in the footsteps of the banned user Moulton, we wouldn't be enjoying this fine conversation. Moulton's been recruiting meat puppets for this article for months at WikipediaReview culminating in several large threads over the last 2 weeks and I have the diffs to prove it. Now in 24 hours we've had a wave of disruption from editors totally new to this article. Any of these who are active in the discussions at WR are simply acting on the behalf of a banned user, IOW, meat puppetry. I wonder if I'll see any names there I recognize from here? Odd nature (talk) 17:37, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

I may be wrong, but I think Durova is talking about the comments about Picard. Some of the comments about her (whether serious or sarcastic) are pretty indecorous. Guettarda (talk) 17:40, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Of course, I agree with you on your assessment of the situation. Guettarda (talk) 17:40, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Oddly enough, increased scrutiny on a living person's biography from established editors and admins is not considered "disruption." Your repeated references to WR are nothing more than a red herring. This biography is broken, in the opinion of many established editors and admins. That this happens to coincide with the views of some WR members is neither here nor there. FCYTravis (talk) 19:37, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Interestingly, there were two big complaints (1) WP:UNDUE after we removed the material that violated copyright. and (2) WP:BLP because we did not have a direct statement from Picard on intelligent design. We have remedied both of these two problems. BOTH OF THEM. And yet, there is still vicious fighting and claims "it is broken" and so on, instead of realizing that we have addressed the two major problems. Very unfortunate. And creates an awful impression.--Filll (talk) 22:25, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

As someone who has had contact with Moulton, both before and after his block, I consider the meatpuppet allegations absolutely false. While he has consistently been upset with the past status of Picard's and Tour's articles (I do not know what he thinks of the current versions), he has not stooped to suggesting specific edits to me, and I find it unlikely that he would. Asking for others to look at problems with an article is perfectly legitimate, just as it is legitimate for them to make edits based on their own judgment after being asked.

Moulton is not Amorrow. His behavior was the major issue behind his block, not the content of his edits. Sχeptomaniac^{χαιρετε} 22:15, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

I'm not trying to assign blame, just pointing out the effect of Google indexing. We're all human and when things get heated few of us are at our best. Suggest the editors at this talk page prioritize the early archving of threads by this metric: put yourselves in Professor Picard's shoes, and if you suppose she would be unsettled by a thread - and the thread isn't contributing to encyclopedic progress - then move toward swift archiving by mutual agreement. Durova^Charge! 18:00, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

If she's going to be dancing with a controversial and polemic PR campaign like the Discovery Institute's, she's going to need better shoes. And to expect controversy. Odd nature (talk) 18:08, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Unfortunately there seems to be a sense of self-righteousness amongst those producing the possibly unsettling language. No matter what you believe this type of attitude is a problem.PelleSmith (talk) 18:13, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

I think most of this should be archived. It is essentially pointless and I do not know what people are still arguing about, given that the WP:BLP problem has been addressed by including her statement and the WP:UNDUE problem has been addressed by including more material on her career. In other words, the main sources of complaint for 10 months or so have been resolved. This is over people. Nothing to see here.--Filll (talk) 18:12, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

I can actually agree with this. Time for us all to declare both victory and defeat and go home. - Merzbow (talk) 18:17, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

In response to Durova: as I have said recently on wp-en-l, I am an aggressive courtesy blanker, and will like to do so here unless someone views that as whitewashing something. --Relata refero (disp.) 19:47, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Agree. FCYTravis (talk) 19:50, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

A what? aggressive courtesy blanker. What in the world does that mean? &#0149;Jim62sch&#0149;^dissera! 05:13, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

In response to Jimbo [10] and to Morven [11]. --Relata refero (disp.) 06:03, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Where are we?

Trying to stay on track, there are two issues here as I see it

1. Should the article explain the "Scientific Dissent from Darwinism" (or do we just leave bald statements and expect people to click through), and
2. If we can agree to 1, how should be describe the petition.

There are other issues, but these are the two main ones. So - does anyone still maintain that we should include a bald statement that she signed the petition with no explanation of what the petition says? Guettarda (talk) 18:22, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

My impression is that there is general agreement on the following points:

• The article should say that Picard signed the petition, and reference the NYTimes article.
• The article should include at least one clause describing the petition, and link to the main article on the petition.

Areas of disagreement include the amount of depth and detail in the discussion of the petition, and how the petition is characterized. I agree it's better to start with areas of agreement and work from there. — Carl (CBM · talk) 18:24, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Agree with CBM's statement. Also with Guettarda in so much as I believe the "explanation" should only consist of one very succinct descriptor of the actual petition.PelleSmith (talk) 18:32, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

So do I. This was my most recent edit. --Relata refero (disp.) 18:52, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Yep to both Guettarda and CBM. Odd nature (talk) 18:49, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

OK, this is very encouraging. Now we can starting thinking about actual phrasing. Guettarda (talk) 19:17, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Next question - does anyone have a problem with my renaming the section "Religion and science"? I thought "Faith" was too nebulous, and missed the point that this was about the interaction between her religious beliefs (I don't like "faith", it's too ambiguous), her research and her views of science. "Religion and science"? "Faith"? "Hair colour"? Guettarda (talk) 19:21, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Religion and science is OK with me - that's an accurate descriptor. FCYTravis (talk) 19:30, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Ditto, religion and science is the best one I've heard yet but I remain open.PelleSmith (talk) 19:40, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Much better than Faith. Works for me. 64.237.4.140 (talk) 20:23, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

• I think Guettarda has it about right.--Filll (talk) 20:31, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

very short

We could just link or add a box that says "signed Dissent from Darwinism", and then have a mile long article there. Oh, we already do. Right. So to save duplication of effort, link once and leave it at that. --Kim Bruning (talk) 20:14, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Not quite as short, but still a one-liner - "Picard is one of the signatories of the Discovery Institute's "A Scientific Dissent From Darwinism," a controversial petition which promotes intelligent design by attempting to cast doubt on evolution." KillerChihuahua^?!? 20:21, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

I support KillerChihuahua's version and point. Odd nature (talk) 20:39, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

The petition's facial wording says it questions the veracity of the theory of evolution. Thus the article's wording, as is, reflects that. It questions evolution and has been used to promote intelligent design. There is a subtle but important semantic point here. We don't know that Picard intended to promote intelligent design. We know that she signed a petition which says, in plain, uninterpreted wording, that, We are skeptical of claims for the ability of random mutation and natural selection to account for the complexity of life. Careful examination of the evidence for Darwinian theory should be encouraged. That is not, on its face, a promotion of intelligent design. What the Discovery Institute has used the petition for, is beyond the scope of Picard's biography. FCYTravis (talk) 20:41, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

So you're asking us to ignore the Discovery Institute petition's context (promotion of ID) and repeat the same rhetorical shell game the institute uses in this article? Er, no, I don't think so. Odd nature (talk) 20:46, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but you're the one using a rhetorical shell game. The plain wording of the petition is clear. It does not mention intelligent design. Anywhere. If it does, show me. Now, you and I agree that it has been used by the DI to promote intelligent design. But that is not the same. The petition, in and of itself, is not a promotion of intelligent design. FCYTravis (talk) 20:48, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Are you serious? Obviously you can promote something without ever mentioning it. Present Z, an alternative to X, then harp on the failings of X. Z is the beneficiary. By going on about whatever is wrong about Ding Dongs I can promote Twinkies if I've presented Twinkies as an alternative elsewhere. A classic left hand/right hand PR tactic. Read A Scientific Dissent From Darwinism and Discovery Institute intelligent design campaigns. Stop wasting your time and ours. Odd nature (talk) 20:59, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Harping on the failings of X can be used to lend authority to alternative Z but harping on the failings of X is quite clearly not the same as alternative Z. We've all read those entries, entries which clearly differentiate between the campaigns of the DI and what the petition itself promotes. Regards.PelleSmith (talk) 00:04, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

KC's point stands as valid: we must explain, not simply connect. &#0149;Jim62sch&#0149;^dissera! 20:32, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Absolutely. Wikipedia articles are not just a list of links.--Filll (talk) 21:10, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

KC's suggestion is an accurate NPOV summary based on what is at A Scientific Dissent From Darwinism. JoshuaZ (talk) 20:51, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Still don't agree with that being the choice here. Hypothetically, if we cannot summarise a nuanced situation without violating NPOV, why should we try? --Relata refero (disp.) 20:38, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

"Nuanced"? Oh come on. &#0149;Jim62sch&#0149;^dissera! 21:00, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

To explain it to most readers, who don't have your knowledge of ID. it's certainly a concise way of covering the essentials, explaining without going into detail. .. dave souza, talk 20:43, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Who says we haven't summarised a nuanced situation without violating NPOV? "(T)he Discovery Institute's A Scientific Dissent From Darwinism, a controversial petition which promotes intelligent design by attempting to cast doubt on evolution" does just that. Show us specifically were it doesn't. Odd nature (talk) 20:42, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Something like "...which has been used by the Discovery Institute to promote intelligent design..." would be better, if it is necessary to mention ID at all. The petition itself doesn't promote or even mention ID. — Carl (CBM · talk) 20:45, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

I would argue that line is backward, too. The plain wording of the petition does not, in and of itself, promote intelligent design. If the petition said "We believe intelligent design to be true, and Darwinism to be false," you would have a point. But it doesn't. It is a statement of skepticism and request for further inquiry. Of course, the petition has been used to promote intelligent design by its creator, but that is not the same. FCYTravis (talk) 20:46, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Your ignoring the context of the petition; it was created to promote ID, period. Just because you chose to ignore the petition's context you shouldn't expect others here will as well. Read the article. Odd nature (talk) 20:50, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

In response to whoever called me out: please don't, I'm already terrified. I would merely like to point out that the petition is used to promote ID and expresses "skepticism" about evolution. If we can't agree on wording, I don't see the need to put an explanation in there at all. The "we need to be printable" reason is still a pretty poor argument, and I don't care if I get blocked for saying that. --Relata refero (disp.) 20:53, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

By saying "used to promote" you imply that the petition was created for some other purpose, which it was not. The petition's creator has been conducting a long PR campaign to lead the public to believe evolution is the subject of widespread doubt in the scientific community, which it is not. We need to be precise here and avoid weasely terms like "used to promote" in order to not repeat their message through Wikipedia. Odd nature (talk) 21:04, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Please see my comment below and please have a closer look at A Scientific Dissent From Darwinism.PelleSmith (talk) 21:08, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

As I stated above, it is good writing style to make our articles self-contained, so something like what KC is suggesting is probably better.--Filll (talk) 21:01, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Terrified of or by what? The petition was crafted by IDiots: saying it is used to support IDiotism is like saying that the Communist Manifesto was used to support Communism. &#0149;Jim62sch&#0149;^dissera! 21:05, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

The current wording, as suggested by Travis, is in fact the most faithful to the entry A Scientific Dissent From Darwinism, which states:

• This list is published in a document together with an introductory statement claiming that its signatories dispute assertions that evolution fully explains the complexity of life and that all known scientific evidence supports evolution. Dissent From Darwinism is one of the Discovery Institute intelligent design campaigns to discredit evolution and bolster claims that intelligent design is scientifically valid by creating the impression that evolution lacks broad scientific support. The Discovery Institute presents the list in an appeal to authority to support its anti-evolution viewpoint.

This entry also makes the nuanced distinction which is essential, between what the petition states and what the Discovery institute is doing with the signed petition. Those who think the other wording stating that the petition "promotes ID" is more faithful please have a look at the full entry.PelleSmith (talk) 21:06, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

The issue I am concerned with is that, if we say the petition supports ID, we imply that Picard supports ID, something that is contradicted by Picard's own words quotes lower in the paragraph. Her quotes imply to me that she is skeptical of both evolution and ID. On the other hand, saying she signed a petition which someone else uses to promote ID doesn't imply she supports that use of it. — Carl (CBM · talk) 21:07, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Agree completely. To respond to Jim's point as well, a hypothetical Intelligent Design Manifesto would obviously promote ID in and of itself, and anyone who would sign such a document could be said to support such without reservation. In contrast, the petition here says nothing about ID, and we have to be careful to not imply that its signatories necessarily supported ID. That is why "used to promote" is more appropriate. Maybe they were idiots for not realizing how it would be used. Certainly many who signed appeared to be aware of how it would be used. But for some, like here, we have no information either way, and shouldn't imply things we can't prove. - Merzbow (talk) 21:13, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

No need for a hypothetical example, there is a real ID manifesto, the Wedge Document. I would think, and I'm sure the community expects, anyone who edits ID-related articles to already know this. Ahem. Odd nature (talk) 21:50, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Well the first 100 or so signatories might have been idiots. But then some realized the problem and removed themselves from the petition or distanced themselves from ID and the petition. Everyone after the first 100 has no such excuses. And everyone after the first 100 who has stayed for a few years also has no such excuses. But in any case, we now have a clarifying statement we can rely on. So what is the problem?--Filll (talk) 21:20, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

I explained above exactly the issue I am concerned about. I believe you are reading more into the fact that she hasn't denounced the petition than our article should. — Carl (CBM · talk) 21:25, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

I do not think you quite get it. I am not advocating stating any of that in the article. That is just talk page discussion. The basic facts are (1) she signed (2) she was asked for clarification several times and refused (but we will not mention that) (3) she remained on the list for years (for whatever reason, but we will not speculate why) (4) She issued a statement partly clarifying her position. So what is the problem?--Filll (talk) 21:55, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

KillerChihuahua's brief statement avoids going into the speculation about the timing and implications of her signing, makes a simple statement of fact, and as suggested below can be followed immediately by her statement about her position. .. dave souza, talk 21:42, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

I'm willing to agree to that as long as we add another source that specifically says the petition promotes ID, because I still don't think the NYT article says that (as opposed to saying DI promotes ID, which it does). I've been told there are many sources for this, I'm just asking for one. I looked through the first three at the SDFD article, but got lost. - Merzbow (talk) 21:48, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Um, wait. Are you saying that the Discovery Insitute source of ID, hub of the movement, and author of the petition did not create the petition to promote ID? Odd nature (talk) 22:07, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

We need to go on more than "no duh" common sense here. Since the petition's language does not promote ID we don't have a way to verify this through the primary source. Do we have another source?PelleSmith (talk) 22:14, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

I am sure they did. But whether or not this is obvious from the petition itself is a key BLP point; by saying the "petition promotes ID", we're also very strongly implying its signers knew this too. And given Picard's subsequent statement skeptical of ID, this is far from clear. I'd like to see a reliable source make that specific point; otherwise I think "used to promote ID" is the wiser choice. - Merzbow (talk) 22:44, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Suppose we move the "Though some of her beliefs are similar, Picard has expressed reservations about the intelligent design movement, ..." sentence to immediately after the one about the Dissent petition, and move the DNA sentence further down the paragraph. The juxtaposition will clarify her position. KillerChihuahua^?!? 21:17, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

She signed a petition promoting ID, that's a verifiable fact. It's also a verifiable fact that she said she doesn't support ID. The article needs to present both facts and let the reader decide. Odd nature (talk) 21:35, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

We should portray her as a confused person. "I only signed it becauase I was clueless, but it sounded good, or maybe it was bad, I dunno". &#0149;Jim62sch&#0149;^dissera! 21:45, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Verification Needed

Can we please have a source that verifies the "fact" that the petition itself "promotes ID?" It seems that the only hitch here now is between two propositions: 1) That the language should say that the petition itself promotes ID and 2) that the language should clarify that the DI uses the petition to promote ID. The factuality of the second proposition is not disputed, so I think those who support the first as more accurate or otherwise preferable to the undisputed fact that the DI does so use the petition should come up with some verification.PelleSmith (talk) 22:06, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

What is this, another hoop for us to jump through, shifting goal posts or just raising the bar for us again? Read the A Scientific Dissent from Darwinism article, it's covered there in depth. Your doubts here are a non-issue again. Odd nature (talk) 22:38, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

No, it's simply an attempt to make sure the article doesn't insinuate something that isn't true. I strongly believe the second option is the better wording. The petition itself does not support ID, but has been used to do so. As I stated over at James Tour, we know that Tour and Picard were not intending to promote ID by signing the petition, based on their own statements. Using the first wording implies that they were, which is clearly false. Sχeptomaniac^{χαιρετε}

No, the people who created the petition and promote the petition and maintain the petition are doing so. And they have created an instrument to try to confuse and mislead the unwary into signing, even if they disagree. And this is covered in depth at A Scientific Dissent from Darwinism, including some interesting links in which it is explored even further. Interestingly, we have had a variety of intelligent design supporters and other creationists who have edit warred to try to remove that part of the article, since they do not like the insinuation that the petition is vague on purpose and many people have been tricked into signing it, or when surveyed later renounced intelligent design. They want to believe that there are secretly huge numbers of scientists that secretly agree with THEM. Maybe a majority...yeah right...--Filll (talk) 23:15, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

All I'm asking for is one source or reference. As it stands the primary source does not support the specific wording in proposition 1 but has no conflict with proposition 2. One reference. With something that is covered in this amount of depth it should be no problem to get one source for. Regards.PelleSmith (talk) 23:38, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Filll, I'm not completely sure what you are saying "No" to, as it appears we are in agreement. The petition itself does not support ID, though it has been used for that cause. Correct? Sχeptomaniac^{χαιρετε} 23:43, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

My personal view, which disagrees with some sources, is that the petition is written so vaguely that every single scientifically literate person, would agree with it. Even people vilified as the Devil incarnate like PZ Myers and Richard Dawkins. It says there is a problem with something it calls "Darwinism". And this petition has been used for many purposes, including attacking evolution and promoting ID.--Filll (talk) 00:55, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Just relax. We have them. They will be presented when we are good and ready. There is no rush here. The article is locked. And you have any doubt that such sources exist? Please....--Filll (talk) 23:41, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

We are trying to iron this out now so the time to present them (or at the very least one of them) is now. Are you just teasing us or is there some reason not to present one source at the very least?PelleSmith (talk) 23:44, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Nope lots of sources exist of course. You can easily find them yourself if you want. I will not present any until it is time however.--Filll (talk) 23:45, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Do you want us to assume that there is no source that supports the statement that "the petition supports ID?" Again, we all know that the petition was created by an institution that supports ID and that this institution uses this petition in campaigns to promote ID ... neither of those ideas are contested. We are trying to move on here and to determine how it is appropriate to mention ID, if at all. With all of the bickering that has taken place here over the last two days, please, for the sake of collegiality either give a source or tell is there is none so that we can move on. Thanks.PelleSmith (talk) 23:50, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Of course they exist. How many times do I have to say this? Do you doubt this is true? Do you not think you could find sources yourself? There is no rush.--Filll (talk) 23:53, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

You've convinced me that it is improbable that such a source exists. I think the best course of action at this point is to say that until a source appears we need to not use language that claims that the petition itself promotes ID. Innocent until proven guilty. Of course when a source arrives this may change. Best.PelleSmith (talk) 23:58, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

If editors know it is true then it is common knowledge. QuackGuru 23:55, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

I hope that was meant in jest.PelleSmith (talk) 00:00, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

I think this argument may be over a misunderstanding. Filll, didn't you just comment that the petition is vague, possibly intentionally so? Wouldn't that make us all in agreement, that the petition itself does not support ID, even if it has been used to do so by DI? That would mean that the argument isn't over what the facts support, but what is the best wording. Sχeptomaniac^{χαιρετε} 00:07, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

One would think so, but my understanding is that Filll and others want to claim that the petition itself promotes ID. He has also many times now said he has sources. These sources remain a mystery to us all.PelleSmith (talk) 00:10, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Here's your source, straight from the horse's mouth, Bruce Chapman President of the Discovery Institute writing to the New York Times:}}

"Contrary to "Intelligent Design Might Be Meeting Its Maker", more scientists than ever support intelligent design and criticize Darwinism. ... the number of scientists who have signed Discovery Institute's "Dissent From Darwin" list has now passed 470."

Here we have the president of the Discovery Institute stating using the petition to promote ID in the New York Times. Time to move along now folks. FeloniousMonk (talk) 03:50, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Nice ellipses. This source does not say that the petition promotes ID at all. Here is the entire letter to editor Felonious is quoting selectively from:

"Contrary to "Intelligent Design Might Be Meeting Its Maker" (Week in Review, Dec. 4), more scientists than ever support intelligent design and criticize Darwinism. A recent European conference on intelligent design - held in Prague and ignored by The Times - attracted 700 attendees, and featured leading scientists from Britain, the Netherlands, the Czech Republic and Slovakia, as well as the United States.

At home, recent articles in The Wall Street Journal and Knight Ridder papers have described intelligent-design scientists at major universities (including Iowa State, the University of Minnesota and the University of Georgia). One National Public Radio story alone featured 18 intelligent-design scientists, though most "would not speak on the record for fear of losing their jobs." There is far more support, indeed, than appears on the surface.

Meanwhile, the number of scientists who have signed Discovery Institute's "Dissent From Darwin" list has now passed 470.

Yes, there is strong, organized opposition to intelligent design, but that is nothing new. To my knowledge, none of the critics quoted in your article supported the theory in the past. So their opposition now is hardly a surprise."

This letter does not claim the petition promotes ID. Please explain to what you meant to show us here.PelleSmith (talk) 03:57, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Oh really? How does your claim Chapman is not using the list to support ID stack up against this source then? Here in it's FAQ on ID, "Top Questions", the Discovery Institute says "Challenges to Darwinian evolution are not the same as proposed solutions, such as the scientific theory of intelligent design" followed in the very next paragraph by "Are there established scholars in the scientific community who challenge Darwinian evolution on a scientific basis? Yes. Various tenets of Darwinian evolution, and the evidence put forth to support it, has been scientifically challenged by doctoral scientists, researchers and theorists at a number of universities, colleges, and research institutes around the world. Over 300 scientists have signed the Scientific Dissent from Darwin statement since it originated in 2001." It then goes on to say "Since Discovery Institute first published its Statement of Dissent from Darwin in 2001, more than 600 scientists have courageously stepped forward and signed onto a growing list of scientists of all disciplines voicing their skepticism over the central tenets of Darwin's theory of evolution."

BTW, I'm not going to be playing the "does not say exactly promotes" game here. I can see where some may want to, but there's no requirement in WP:V, [{WP:RS]] or WP:NPOV that says articles must cite sources verbatim, while there are several guidelines that encourage summarizing sources. FeloniousMonk (talk) 04:28, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Correct me if I'm wrong but you just quoted the following (emphasis added): "Challenges to Darwinian evolution are not the same as proposed solutions, such as the scientific theory of intelligent design." So in what you quote we have two different things here 1) Challenges to Darwinian evolution and 2) Intelligent design. You go on to show how the petition clearly promotes the first aspect, which again, you have established as being "not the same" as the second. How does that prove your point?PelleSmith (talk) 04:37, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

In case you were unaware the major point of contention left here revolves around insinuating that those who signed the petition must support ID. We all agree that those who signed the petition support "challenges to Darwinian evolution," yet many of us don't like the language that makes claims that the "petition promotes intelligent design," since this would imply that those who signed it did. The petition says nothing about ID, and we are still waiting for an external source that says it does. The source you have provided makes a strong case against the claim that the petition promotes ID.PelleSmith (talk) 04:43, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

I've already provided here two primary sources showing the institute using the list to promote ID. Here's a third: Here Discovery Institute founder and president Bruce Chapman writes "The public hasn't been told most of what I have just described. Many in the media typically define ID as a proposition that "life is so complex it must have been the product of a supernatural power." But that mixes a scientific proposition with its philosophical implications. ID scientists don't do that. Media also typically greet reports of evolutionary success with uncritical acclaim,while growing scientific dissent from Darwinism (more than 700 scientists have signed a "Dissent from Darwin" statement16) and production of peer-reviewed science publications by pro-ID scientists are ignored. Even a federal judge in Pennsylvania copied a false American Civil Liberties Union and Darwinist canard that there are no such peer-reviewed publications friendly to ID." Thje only question here is whether the "petition promotes intelligent design", and Chapman, DI founder and president certainly thinks it does. Whether the signatorees think it does is a non sequitur. And provision has already been made for including Picard's view on that, so let's stick to the issue. To that end, time to move along. This is all starting to smack of POV obstructionism. FeloniousMonk (talk) 05:06, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Wait a minute - you just argued that the DI isn't an acceptable source for the statement that the petition does not equal an endorsement of intelligent design. And yet now you are asking us to accept the DI as a source when it fits your agenda? The logic is tortured at best, fatally flawed at worst. If it's an impossibly POV source for one thing, then it's still going to be an impossibly POV source for another. FCYTravis (talk) 06:13, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Did you read what FM said? "[T]wo primary sources showing the institute using the list". Like any political organisation, the DI is an unreliable source, but they are a useful corroborating source. Primary sources are useful for corroboration, but they shouldn't be taken as reliable, especially when the contradict reliable sources. Guettarda (talk) 06:32, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

If we are trying to say that the DI is "using the list" to this aim then there is no disagreement. The verification asked for above was for the other claim that the list itself supports ID. Perhaps there is some confusion here. Cheers.PelleSmith (talk) 12:36, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

KC's version: Putting it all together...

Doing something like KC proposes would look roughly like this:

Placard is one of the signatories of the Discovery Institute's "A Scientific Dissent From Darwinism", a controversial petition which promotes intelligent design by attempting to cast doubt on evolution. More recently, Picard has expressed reservations about the intelligent design movement, saying that it deserves "much more" skepticism, and hasn't been adequately challenged by Christians and other people of faith. She argues that the media has created a false dilemma by dividing everyone into two groups, supporters of intelligent design or evolution. "To simply put most of us in one camp or the other does the whole state of knowledge a huge disservice," she said. Picard sees DNA as too complex to have originated through "purely random processes" and believes that it shows "the mark of intervention," and "a much greater mind, a much greater scientist, a much greater engineer behind who we are."

I think this is fair enough. Putting it all in context, we can honestly say what the petition is about, but still provide proper balance about her position. PS et al, please consider now the entire paragraph again, is it really that unfair? I think it's balanced and accurate wrt most reliable sources on this topic. Merzul (talk) 23:29, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

The para above seems to me to imply that Picard had some sort of change of mind about ID, at one time supporting it and then distancing herself. But I don't think it's clear that she supported ID when she signed the petition, only that she supported what the petition says, which is that people should evaluate evolution skeptically. Maybe I am overlooking the reference where she says that she intended to support ID when she signed the petition? — Carl (CBM · talk) 23:40, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

We need to source the idea that the petition promotes intelligent design. The primary source does not support this, and the main entry itself differentiates between what the petition promotes and what the DI promotes. Please see my post above. Thanks.PelleSmith (talk) 23:42, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

"...a controversial petition which questions evolution and has been used by the institute to promote intelligent design." That wording says what Picard endorsed - the wording of the petition which questions evolution and never mentions ID - and says how it has been used, which is by the institute in its ID campaigns. We can allow readers to draw their own conclusions as to what that means, and we can Wikilink Discovery Institute intelligent design campaigns to "promote intelligent design." Readers can click on that link and decide for themselves how to interpret her signature. FCYTravis (talk) 02:34, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

You should have some source for claiming the petition "has been used by DI to promote ID" TheRedPenOfDoom (talk) 02:47, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

I am willing to stipulate that as a fact. The petition pretty clearly has been used by the DI to promote ID. I'm sure there are sources for that. What there aren't sources for is connecting Picard to support of ID. FCYTravis (talk) 02:53, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Actually, Travis, don't be so sure about that. I'm having the shocking revelation presently that finding a source even for what we have all taken for granted, that the DI uses this petition to push its ID agenda (as one would obviously assume it would) is extremely difficult. No such source exists, for instance, on the entry for the petition. I had to tag the one sentence that makes this claim emphatically with a ((cn)) tag just now. I mean don't get me wrong, I truly believe this to be the case, but it amazes me that the people who keep on claiming to have hundreds of sources for everything haven't even added a source for this on the relevant pages. I'll keep looking.PelleSmith (talk) 03:29, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

I'm at a loss. It seems obvious that this is part of their larger strategy, as laid out in their "wedge document" but I can't find a good source. Hopefully someone will get the source into the other entry at which point we would have it here as well.PelleSmith (talk) 03:50, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

What are you panicking about? This article might stay locked for weeks, or months, the way things look. Why are you in such a rush?--Filll (talk) 15:22, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

New Source emerges - case closed?

Thanks to FeloniusMonk we have a new source from the Discovery Institute which explicitly differentiates between "challenges to Darwinian evolution" and "proposed solutions, such as the scientific theory of intelligent design." Here is what the Discovery Institute has to say in answer to the question, "What is the difference between a scientific challenge to Darwinian evolution and the theory of intelligent design?":

Challenges to Darwinian evolution are not the same as proposed solutions, such as the scientific theory of intelligent design.

Scientific challenges to Darwinian evolution include unresolved debates amongst scientists over issues such as the peppered moth, the myth of human gill slits, Haeackel's embryos, and the Miller-Urey experiment. Scientific challenges to Darwinian evolution address problems for which adequate solutions have not been presented.

The scientific theory of intelligent design holds that certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause, not an undirected process such as natural selection. Intelligent design theory then is an alternative solution to answer problems with Darwinian evolution.

The institute then goes on to answer the question "What is the 'Dissent from Darwin' list?"

Since Discovery Institute first published its Statement of Dissent from Darwin in 2001, more than 600 scientists have courageously stepped forward and signed onto a growing list of scientists of all disciplines voicing their skepticism over the central tenets of Darwin's theory of evolution.

Now whatever their usage of this list may be in other campaigns, this source makes a pretty incontrovertible point that the list itself does not "promote intelligent design," but instead promotes "challenges to Darwinian evolution." Right from the horses mouth. Can it get any clearer? Can we drop this language now and stick with the current version?PelleSmith (talk) 05:00, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Wow, this is deja vu. These so called "arguments" (and pseudoscience is based on arguing rather than anything like scientific method). These so called 600 scientists have few, if any, natural scientists of even minor note amongst the signees. It's anti-science, it's pseudoscience, and your wordsmithing is just trying to keep the POV as if these non-scientists really do something scientific. They don't. They promote ID, that's the only reason they exist. So, your tendentious editing notwithstanding, the case is clear as crystal to me. OrangeMarlin ^{Talk• Contributions} 05:33, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

We're not going to be relying on the strategic statements of a partisan group conducting the PR campaign as the definitive source of whether their list supports their claim. Maybe you find their promotional rhetoric conclusive, but we've been dealing with ID for a long time and am more circumspect than that. Particularly since the ruling of a federal court in Kitzmiller found that ID proponents support their assertion by misrepresentation [12] the DI remains a reliable source only as a primary source of what the DI says, never of what something is. For that we rely upon secondary sources and any primary sources which happen to support the secondary ones.

What you propose is for this article to present a view based upon a highly partisan and biased source as outlined at Wikipedia:Verifiability#Questionable_sources. Your suggestion turns Wikipedia verifiablity policy on it's head and will never fly. I should be surprised you thought it would, but your suggestion fits the allegation made elsewhere that you're promoting a particular view. FeloniousMonk (talk) 05:34, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Felonius you brought this source here to prove a point. When the source didn't support your point you now claim that the person who has pointed this out has an agenda. Spare me. My only agenda is not implying things about a living person that are not supported by sources, including this one, quite clearly. Thanks again for bringing the source in, but lets be clear that you in fact brought this source to this talk page. Thanks.PelleSmith (talk) 11:31, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Then stop asking us to accept the DI as a source elsewhere. This is the height of disingenuity - citing the DI when the source agrees with your agenda and dismissing it when it doesn't. Hilarious. Or at least it would be if this wasn't a biography of a living person. FCYTravis (talk) 06:14, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

They are not a reliable source, except for their own opinion. And when that opinion corroborates what everyone else says, then they are a useful corroborating source. But on one of the central fictions of their campaign, when they contradict reliable sources, then they really aren't. It's like any other talking point - just because they are talking points doesn't mean they are false. But neither are they reliable unless they are supported by other sources. Guettarda (talk) 06:24, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

No, I get it. You all are willing to do anything it takes to make it look like Rosalind Picard endorses intelligent design, when we have no source saying that she does. That includes selective use of sources when they fit your agenda and dismissal of the same source when it does not. It also includes willful dismissal and denial of the plain language of the petition in favor of subjective interpretations of what the language may or may not mean to different people and groups.

We have the undisputed fact that Picard signed a petition saying We are skeptical of claims for the ability of random mutation and natural selection to account for the complexity of life. Careful examination of the evidence for Darwinian theory should be encouraged. There is no language anywhere in that petition which makes reference to intelligent design. Subjective interpretations of that language do not belong in the biography of the person who signed it. We do not and cannot (absent a statement from her) know what her position is on intelligent design. We know that others have used the petition to promote intelligent design - therefore I have no objection to saying that the DI has used the petition for such. We do not have any sources that say she has done so. Thus, to imply in her biography that by signing the petition, she "promotes intelligent design" is unfair, unsupported and untenable. FCYTravis (talk) 06:45, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

You mean like using Mein Kampf to expose the thoughts of Hitler without giving them credence? (Yeah, Godwin's law, blah, blah). The DI is a good source for explaining what the DI wants to spew, but not a good source for what is science. It's really no more complicated than that. &#0149;Jim62sch&#0149;^dissera! 06:47, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Guy said it better than I ever could: I would remind people that our legal counsel is now Mike Godwin, so violating Godwin's Law in the context of debate on talk pages is now self-referential as well as unbelievably lame. Good grief. FCYTravis (talk) 06:55, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Uh, right. Whatever you say. Really. &#0149;Jim62sch&#0149;^dissera! 07:01, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Oh, Sparky, who created the list and for what purpose? (Not like we all haven't been through this conversation before). &#0149;Jim62sch&#0149;^dissera! 06:53, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Irrelevant. You're talking about speculating as to her motives and inferring them based on the motives of the petition's creators. That's impermissible original research. FCYTravis (talk) 07:02, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

(after ec)BTW, your argument is like saying Ben Franklin really didn't support separating from England, he just signed the Declaration of Independence on a whim and then wrote more copies of Poor Richard's Almanack in real life. &#0149;Jim62sch&#0149;^dissera! 06:59, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Something tells me that we have sources which verify that the esteemed Mr. Franklin did a little bit more for the Revolutionary War effort than simply signing a piece of paper. Just a hunch.

Furthermore, your analogy is quite broken, because the Declaration of Independence is a clear-cut statement of... well, declaring independence. By contrast, the petition says absolutely nothing about intelligent design and hence does not in any way link Picard with support for intelligent design. It links her with being a skeptic of evolution. Those are not synonyms. FCYTravis (talk) 07:02, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Odi stultos. &#0149;Jim62sch&#0149;^dissera! 07:07, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Just because its in Latin doesn't mean its not rude. Dura lex sed lex. --Relata refero (disp.) 07:16, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Depends on one's definition of rude I s'pose -- I don't see a statement of fact as bering rude. But, that's just me. &#0149;Jim62sch&#0149;^dissera! 11:14, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Well, a plain statement of fact isn't rude, its the implication that its applicable here that is.... :) --Relata refero (disp.) 11:25, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

And I think well-meaning people are so hell-bent on taking down the Discovery Institute's crackpottery that they can't see the glaring signs in the road that say "Stop, you're taking this way too far. Enough already." Sorry I couldn't fit that into a cute little two-word Latin phrase, but oh well. FCYTravis (talk) 07:32, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Agreed one hundred percent. Discovery Institute = crackpottery, but this is taking it too far.PelleSmith (talk) 12:05, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

This entire discussion has veered into irrelevancy. We all agree that the DI is using the petition to promote intelligent design. As FM said, "I've already provided here two primary sources showing the institute using the list to promote ID". If that's agreed upon, then why the objection to saying in the article "petition is used by the DI to promote ID" instead of "petition promotes ID"? In almost any context but that of a BLP, this semantic difference would not really be that important. But the BLP issue is that "she signed a petition which promotes ID" very strongly implies that Picard knew she was promoting ID when she signed it. From her future, sourced, statements, we know she is skeptical of ID. If we can just agree on "petition is used to promote" instead of "petition promotes", then the issue goes away. - Merzbow (talk) 07:14, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Yup. --Relata refero (disp.) 07:20, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

So we change reality to suit one person? Uh, no. If what Merzbow says is true, use that, don't try to change the scope of the petition. &#0149;Jim62sch&#0149;^dissera! 11:18, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Change reality? The reason why I reproduced this source after Felonius brought it in is because it very clearly shows that even from the DI's perspective equating 1) the dissent from Darwin with 2) the positive support for ID is not a given forgone conclusion. I don't see how the source is unreliable for the statement of this opinion. I also don't see how this opinion is irrelevant here when people are hellbent on claiming the opposite ... that declaring "dissent from Darwin" amounts to support for ID ... and are hellbent on justifying this claim through the intentions of the DI. Now again we all agree, even without sources, that the DI is using the petition to promote ID. Why are some still fighting tooth and nail to state that the petition itself supports ID? I have yet to understand how that amounts to "reality."PelleSmith (talk) 11:28, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

OK. So you'll change it cross-WP? Good luck, given that it either supports ID or creationism. You decide. &#0149;Jim62sch&#0149;^dissera! 11:38, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Nothing like dishonestly cherry picking sources is there? Well what else would you expect from those who like to quote mine?--Filll (talk) 11:53, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Filll, I did not bring the source here, FeloniusMonk did. I don't really appreciate the various inferences drawn about me from the false notion that I brought this source into the discussion. How about from now on when you make a statement about me you provide evidence of what you are saying. Please either provide diffs that support my "quote mining" or retract your statement. The same goes for any such statements in the future. Cheers.PelleSmith (talk) 12:26, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

You can try to spin it however you like. I think the evidence is clear.--Filll (talk) 12:46, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Scylla and Charybdis &#0149;Jim62sch&#0149;^dissera! 12:06, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

No one needs to change anything across WP. In most cases there is no explanation at all of the petition, only a link saying someone signed it. The fact that the main entry opens with the statement that it "is a petition promoting intelligent design" is perhaps not ideal given what we know, but at least the text of the entry explains the situation in more detail and subtlety. Why is it that no one supporting this claim can source it? We've been told repeatedly that it is sourceable clearly but no one wants to provide a source. Please consider Travis' advice. The Discovery Institute promotes an untenable theory and engages in crackpottery, but this takes it too far. We are talking about the Biography of a Living Person and not the Discovery Institute.PelleSmith (talk) 12:05, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

In most cases ... So where is the dissent from most cases? &#0149;Jim62sch&#0149;^dissera! 12:08, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

"In most cases" means in all cases where this list is linked in the text of a BLP ... Go to Category:Signatories of "A Scientific Dissent From Darwinism" and start clicking. I will copy here the wording used for the BLPs in which the petition is mentioned in the entry itself so you get an idea (Note that a vast majority only provide a category at the bottom and make no mention in the main entry):

1. D'Abrera is listed as a signatory on the petition known as "A Scientific Dissent from Darwinism", a campaign begun in 2001 by the Discovery Institute.
2. Robinson is also a signatory to A Scientific Dissent From Darwinism, a petition produced by the Discovery Institute that expresses skepticism about the ability of natural selection to account for the complexity of life, and encouraging careful examination of the evidence for "Darwinian theory".
3. [Henry F. Schaefer] is a Fellow of the Discovery Institute's Center for Science and Culture, the hub of the intelligent design movement, and the International Society for Complexity, Information and Design, and a signer of the Discovery Institute's anti-evolution letter, A Scientific Dissent From Darwinism.
4. Sewell is signatory to the Discovery Institute's A Scientific Dissent from Darwinism.
5. Philip S. Skell is a signatory of A Scientific Dissent From Darwinism.
6. [Richard Sternberg] is also a signatory to the Discovery Institute's Scientific Dissent from Darwinism petition.
7. Tour is one of the signatories of the Discovery Institute's "A Scientific Dissent From Darwinism," a controversial petition that has been used to promote intelligent design by questioning evolution.

As you can see in no other BLP do we claim that the "petition promotes intelligent design." The closest to this entry is that of James Tour, and even there it says that the petition "has been used to promote intelligent design." So where exactly do I have to run around changing things?PelleSmith (talk) 12:57, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

We do NOT source Wikipedia with Wikipedia. Or didn't you know that?--Filll (talk) 13:44, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

And where did I suggest doing that? The above only goes to disprove the notion put forth above it that if we use the current language as opposed to the "petition promotes intelligent design" there is no need to go around all of WP making similar changes, because in fact all other BLPs already do this. You know very well what this was answering and that I'm not suggesting it as a source for anything.PelleSmith (talk) 13:48, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Then of course you know that by WP:OTHERCRAPEXISTS we do not care and this is irrelevant.--Filll (talk) 15:25, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

As you can see in no other BLP do we claim that the "petition promotes intelligent design." That's easy enough to fix. Guettarda (talk) 16:29, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Duh of course we can source it. And we can source it in an honest NPOV way. And if we do as PS suggests, we will take all the creationism and intelligent design articles in Wikipedia, about 500 of them, and turn them into religious tracts. Somehow I think that does not serve our readers or NPOV well. However, there is this place called Conservapedia I have heard about that you might be interested in... --Filll (talk) 12:21, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

That is the most disingenuous argument I've ever heard. What about WP:V don't you understand? This whole discussion has gotten completely out of hand. This entry is not a "creationism and intelligent design article", it is the BLP who signed a petition. Get some perspective please. If my school district was trying to teach ID or was telling my kids that evolution is "just some theory" I would be fighting tooth and nail with anyone I could to get such hogwash obliterated. But that's not the case here. We're talking about a woman who signed a petition. Can we recognize the basic human right to be judged by one's own actions and not by the nefarious aims of some institute? This really is taking it too far.PelleSmith (talk) 12:32, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

And we are talking about a petition produced by an institute. And that petition and its associated programs are viewed and characterized in a certain way by well over 99 percent of the experts in the relevant field. And you would prefer to present the institute's version, not the mainstream version. And we think that NPOV is the way to go, and the mainstream description is more reasonable, not the institute's version. You are the one arguing frantically to present the view of this institute.--Filll (talk) 12:46, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

What mainstream version? You have yet to produce any sources. Now one of your fellow agenda pushers brings in sources that are primary from the DI and/or its president and you conveniently dismiss them once it is clear that these sources don't promote what you want them to. I don't prefer taking the Discovery Institute's word for anything, but we lack any verification of the idea that the petition itself promotes Intelligent design, outside of your opinion of course. Please see WP:V and come up with some sources to support this "mainstream version."PelleSmith (talk) 13:24, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Are you in some kind of rush? Did you not notice the page is locked? Is this a matter of life and death? You think that such sources do not exist? Well if you believe that, you do not know this field very well I would say. By the way did you realize that " agenda pushers" probably violates WP:CIVIL, an offense for which you can be summarily sanctioned? Possibly blocked or banned? So just a word to the wise to clean up your language. --Filll (talk) 13:48, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Ah yes, the Civility Patrol strikes again. According to you, it's a-OK for Jim62sch to call us fools, but if we call you agenda pushers, we'll get blocked. Well, no, sorry, as Jim62sch put it, "I don't see a statement of fact as bering rude." You're pushing your agenda here. That's a statement of fact. FCYTravis (talk) 16:51, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Agenda? If that's what you call "trying to get an accurate article that conforms to policy". Sure. Are you saying that you have a problem with that agenda? Guettarda (talk) 17:07, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

My quick take

From what I have read about this petition and the users who signed it, it was not presented to them as it currently is to the public. I t was presented in a straight forward manner saying "Do you agree with this statement?" and either sign it or not. The way it has been used after the fact is the problem for many of the people who signed it (or they are backpedaling, who knows...). This is the crux of the current debate. Do we present the petition to the readers as it was presented to the person who signed it or as it is currently being presented? I would support the former. I know I have done things in the past that have been twisted to support someone else's agenda/cause even though the intent was not to be that. spryde | talk 11:35, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Clearly, like everything else in intelligent design, there are different ways to view it. We can describe the intelligent design petition as:

• intelligent design supporters view it
• as the Discovery Institute presents it
• as the scientific mainstream presents it
• as competing creationists describe it
• as the NCSE describes it
• as those who have announced they were "duped" into signing it describe it

and so on. If you disagree with WP:NPOV, then of course you will argue for weeks and months on end with how NPOV dictates how it is described. I suggest that we use NPOV, since, oh my gosh, this is Wikipedia! Or did we all forget that?--Filll (talk) 11:51, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

That leaves the question of what the NPOV description would be. It looks to me that: the plain language of the text doesn't mention ID; that everyone here agrees ID supporters have used the petition as part of their argument in support of ID; and it is not clear that Picard intended to support ID by signing the petition. Do other people agree with those statements? — Carl (CBM · talk) 11:57, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

You and I have no idea why Picard signed the petition. All we have is a statement later in which she says she is skeptical of intelligent design, and her idea is X, where X is almost identical to intelligent design. But since you have joined in fighting world war III to promote the idea that we not assume why Picard signed, then why have you decided to change your mind? You cannot have it both ways; demanding that we assume what Picard meant when it suits you and a certain agenda, and then not assuming what Picard meant when that appears unsuitable. --Filll (talk) 12:03, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

I don't follow - I didn't say I know why she signed it either. My viewpoint is that we shouldn't imply that she signed the petition to support ID unless we actually have a source that indicates her reasoning. — Carl (CBM · talk) 12:09, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

If you want to follow the plain language standard here, you will state that ID is science. If you follow the plain language standard here, you will state that ID has nothing to do with religion. If you follow the plain language standard here, you will state that intelligent design is not part of creationism. However, it turns out that the mainstream of the relevant field states that ID is not science, that ID is meant to promote religion and in fact is a strategy to try to trick the US judicial system by hiding sort of the existence of God in the language of the "theory" (nudge hudge wink wink), that intelligent design is just warmed over creationism and is essentially indistinguishable from creationism as presented in private to its "base" of fundamentalist biblical literalists when they are trying to raise money. We do not follow the "plain language" standard here. We follow the NPOV standard. Perhaps you have heard of it?--Filll (talk) 12:18, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

You know, the Discovery Institute is founded on the idea that they can redefine what science is, redefine what biology is, redefine what religion is, redefine a huge range of things. To them, ID is science, and evolution is not. To them, magic must be included as a cause in science. To them, ID is not creationism. And so on.

If we blindly and slavishly just take the Discovery Institute's word for it, we would be producing religious tracts here. But we are Wikipedia, and we do not do that. If you want religious tracts, you can go to Conservapedia or any number of other wikis with that orientation. We are different. Deal with it.--Filll (talk) 12:00, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

How is the DI relevant here? This article is about Picard, not the DI. — Carl (CBM · talk) 12:09, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

How is the DI relevant here? Well you want to follow the "plain language" standard. Who do you think wrote that "plain language" that you want to use? The DI of course. So if you follow the "plain language" standard, you are just using the DI's interpretation and version and hermeneutics. But that is not NPOV, is it?--Filll (talk) 12:26, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

I still don't follow. I don't see that it matters how the DI interprets the petition; what matters is how Picard interpreted it, which we don't know. The petition itself doesn't say it is about ID, it just talks about evolution. What exac tly is the motivation for using the DI's interpretation here? Picard isn't a spokesperson for the DI or responsible for what they say. — Carl (CBM · talk) 14:08, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Well of course we can remove all explanatory material from this article, as Guettarda suggested. But then it would not be much of an article. Wikipedia is not a list of links. And if you go with the "plain language" you are going with the DI's interpretation, aren't you? And of course Picard is not a spokesperson for them. Who said she was?--Filll (talk) 14:19, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

My concern, as before, is only that we don't imply that Picard takes the positions that the DI takes without evidence. In particular, I don't believe we know that she signed the petition in order to promote ID, and so I don't think the article should make statements which imply that was her purpose. If we say she "signed a petition which promotes ID", that does imply that she promotes (promoted) ID at that time, which we do not know to be accurate. — Carl (CBM · talk) 14:31, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Duh.

Anyway, no one can know why anyone signed the petition, but, to be honest, it wasn't so abstrusely worded that ther could be any question what is was about. The choice I suggested above is really the only choice. &#0149;Jim62sch&#0149;^dissera! 12:16, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Indeed, it was very clearly worded to refer to evolution, but didn't mention intelligent design. The natural conclusion is that it is possible for a person to sign the petition because they think more examination of evolution is worthwhile, without necessarily also supporting intelligent design. If the DI dupes people into misinterpreting what the petition actually says, the article on the petition can discuss that in depth. — Carl (CBM · talk) 14:14, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

So one asks what the NPOV description of the petition is? Well I think that should be pretty obvious to anyone who understands what Wikipedia is. What field is the petition purporting to be in? Well it purports to be a petition about scientific ideas and science, not about religion. It purports to be a petition about biology and evolution. So when there is a range of views about something, we present the views in proportion to their prominence in that field. Which field in this case? Evolutionary biology. What do evolutionary biologists feel about intelligent design and this petition? Over 99.9 percent of evolutionary biologists and every major scientific organization, covering literally millions of scientists reject intelligent design. So in NPOV, what is the view that is presented most prominently? It is the view of mainstream science and in particular mainstream evolutionary biology. And what is that view? It is that this petition is vague, but is an attack on evolution and a promotion of intelligent design. And are there sources? You bet. We presented some. And we will present more. Of course if you insist on taking a source that is presenting the minority position, like the Discovery Institute, you will be violating NPOV. So...--Filll (talk) 12:12, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Where are the sources that say that the petition promotes intelligent design? A vast majority of scientists do think ID is bunk, and a vast majority of scientists also think that evolution is pretty right on. Where is the source that says that a majority of scientists think this petition promotes ID as opposed to simply criticizing evolution?PelleSmith (talk) 13:53, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

What are you so desperate for? Is this some crisis that needs to resolved to save the world right this instant? What is your problem? Do you have ants in your pants?--Filll (talk) 13:56, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

We'd like to work with you to reach a consensus compromise on this matter so that the article can be reopened for editing as soon as possible. It's obvious, however, that your group of agenda-pushers (statement of fact, as per Jim62sch) have no interest in doing so - your intent is to simply stonewall until we give up. Well, that's not going to happen. I propose to fight it out on this line, if it takes all summer. FCYTravis (talk) 16:55, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

You know, it would be far more constructive if your plan was to talk and consider evidence rather than fight to replace sourced material with your OR like you insisted on doing earlier. Guettarda (talk) 17:06, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

When you stop twisting sources around upside down and backward to implicitly depict Picard as an ID supporter, we can come to some sort of an agreement. Until then, we've nothing to debate. FCYTravis (talk) 17:09, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Well...I can't stop doing what I've never done. But thanks for your willingness to admit that you are replacing sourced material with your own opinion. At least your willingness to admit that you are violating policy is a start. Admitting you have a problem is the first step. Next step - work to change your behaviour. Guettarda (talk) 17:17, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

What source supports the wording that claims the petition itself "promotes intelligent design?" No such source exists. Please provide this source. we are all in favor of " ... and has been used to promote intelligent design." If the latter version is not being debated then lets stop this, if the former wording is sourced, then by all means give us the source. Thanks.PelleSmith (talk) 17:29, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Do you have some sort of problem? What are you so anxious about? Do you not think such sources exist? How many times do you have to be told, over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over that these sources exist and will be forthcoming? Just relax. You might live longer. You will definitely edit longer.--Filll (talk) 17:34, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Oh yeah, we can work together - I'll stop violating WP:OR just as soon as you stop violating WP:BLP and smearing a living person. What say you, good sir? Shall we join hands and sing Kumbaya? FCYTravis (talk) 17:25, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Imagine if newspapers and the rest of the "media" had our goofy BLP system -- the news would be pretty dull, yes? @@ &#0149;Jim62sch&#0149;^dissera! 21:04, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Yes this is a direct admission of violating WP:NOR. We do not know if Picard is or was an ID supporter. We do not know if Picard is not or was not an ID supporter. We have a statement from her, in November 2007 where she sort of half denies ID, and then states that she believes in X, where X is almost identical to ID. And that is what we quote. We do not state that Picard is an ID proponent. We do not state that Picard is an ID supporter. And you do not know if Picard is or is not an ID supporter. And we are not proposing that Picard be described as an ID supporter. All we know is that Picard signed a petition and remained on a petition produced by the organization that promotes ID, and invented ID, along with many other ID supporters. The petition is of course vague, and since you do not want to have too much detail in this article, we leave that discussion of its vagueness to the linked article. I am sure if we proposed putting that in this article, many would throw terrible tantrums about WP:UNDUE etc. But instead of just stating "This woman signed a petition you probably have never heard of created by a group you have never heard of and have no idea why it is relevant or why the New York Times wrote about it in a story but we wont tell you but you can click on these 5 links, and then 5 links more after that, and another 3 links after that, to find out maybe if you want but we wont tell you because we are Wikipedia the encyclopedia that anyone can edit and we dont want to be unfair nyah nyah so there", what we are proposing is just a few words from secondary sources describing what this petition was and why anyone cares.--Filll (talk) 17:30, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

She signed a petition that questioned evolution and has been used to promote ID. That's all we know. The rest is speculation, guilt by association and vagueries. You admit that the petition is vague. In the face of this vagueness, we cannot insert your favored interpretation into the biography of a living person. FCYTravis (talk) 17:37, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Please point me to the place in Wikipedia policy which dictates I must produce these sources for you within some set period of time. Thanks.--Filll (talk) 13:57, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

We have no way of knowing what it was that people signed or why they signed it. That's very true. In Chang's article he mentions someone who signed it but says "a pox on both your houses" to both evolution and ID. (I don't understand what he really means, but that's beside the point). Anyone who signed it after it was published in 2001 should be assumed to know that what they were signing, although even there, some people did not understand the DI and it's mission until the Dover trial.

That said, if you read Picard's comments in The Record interview, she endorses what Sober called "mini-ID" (the idea that some aspects of the natural world are too complicated to have originated through natural processes). Despite this, she is distancing herself from ID and calling on Christians to offer more scrutiny. Since this was November 2007, it should be taken as a direct response to what went on here. She never mentioned the petition, she made no attempt to distance herself from the DI, never said "I don't approve of the way my signature was used", never said "I didn't know what I was signing". Of course this was an interview, not a press release, so there's the added filter of Petricevic, but in general we trust journalists not to screw things up too badly.

So - the way the original petition was presented to the first signers is unknowable. The language has some red flags that should have jumped out at anyone with a solid background in biology, but a lot of the people who signed it aren't biologists. So for most signatories it could not have been seen as a petition aimed at their peers - it was a political statement aimed at an "other". If I signed a petition about the problems I have with string theory, it would be as a lay person, my PhD in biology notwithstanding. It would be a political statement, not a statement from a peer or to a peer.

The NCSE approached signers for clarification. So did Chang and others. After the fact, when it was clear how the DI intended to use the petition (initially to attack the PBS series on Evolution, later to argue for Teach the Controversy, etc.), some people distanced themselves from what they had signed. Picard did not. She was approached by several people during and after Moulton's disruption here. Her only response appears to be what she said to The Record.

We have the facts. Picard signed an obviously political petition. The petition has been used by the DI in its campaigns. Picard has been asked to respond to the use of her name in that way, and her response was "we need to be more skeptical about ID". She has said she belongs to neither camp. But she did not say anything about the way her name is being used by the DI. The fact that she said nothing about the petition despite being asked about it strongly suggests that she has no problem with it. So regardless of what she knew beforehand, Picard has made no attempt to distance herself from the way the petition is being used. Guettarda (talk) 16:27, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Yes. We might not know all the details, but there are facts which we know. And not all of these facts will find their way to the article, but they certainly inform our thinking about the situation.--Filll (talk) 16:32, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Exactly. We do not know what her response to the petition is. Silence is not an admission of guilt, nor a defense. It's just silence. Therefore, we should avoid implying what her position regarding the petition is. She signed it, then it was used to promote ID.

I find it really odd that Filll and FM have both used the very wording that PS, Travis, and others are arguing for, yet still fight on for their version. This isn't a contest, is it really so hard to admit someone else might have the right idea? Sχeptomaniac^{χαιρετε} 17:17, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

She signed it. It was used to attack evolution and promote Teach the Controversy (and other DI campaigns). She made no attempt to distance herself from it. Silence isn't consent, but in response to the question "do you support the way your name is being used" she replied "I don't want to be placed in either the ID or the evolution camp". She does not say "I don't like my name being used to support ID". There is a difference.

I'm not certain what PS is saying, but Travis is saying that we need to work from a "plain reading" of the petition, instead of what secondary sources say about it. I think that's what PS is arguing as well, but I'm not sure. To replace a secondary source with your own reading of a primary source is a violation of NOR. Guettarda (talk) 17:43, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

From WP:NOR: "To the extent that part of an article relies on a primary source, it should: only make descriptive claims about the information found in the primary source, the accuracy and applicability of which is easily verifiable by any reasonable, educated person without specialist knowledge, and make no analytic, synthetic, interpretive, explanatory, or evaluative claims about the information found in the primary source." AND "All interpretive claims, analyses, or synthetic claims about primary sources must be referenced to a secondary source, rather than original analysis of the primary-source material by Wikipedia editors."

What I am saying is simple. We can "only make descriptive claims about the information found in the primary source," (e.g. the petition) unless we have a secondary source (which of course is preferable). With only a primary source, stating that the petition "questions evolution" is entirely fine since it is descriptive of the actual petition. It is also fine to state that the DI has "used the petition to promote intelligent design" since we have independent sources attesting to this. However, stating that the "petition promotes intelligent design" is not fine unless we have a secondary source that states this. If we don't this amounts to "original analysis of the primary-source material by Wikipedia editors." It is this secondary source that I keep on asking for and Filll keeps on teasing me about, claiming that of course it exists but he's gonna take his time to bring it into the discussion. Thanks.PelleSmith (talk) 18:27, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Some secondary sources have been produced. And more are to come, if people will not get so upset. My goodness. No rush here.--Filll (talk) 19:19, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

"I don't want to be placed in either the ID or the evolution camp." Good job, Guettarda. That is, right there, all we need. She had a chance to make an overt statement in favor of ID, and she did not. This closes the case. You cannot use this petition to make it look like she supports ID. The fact that she did not say what you think she should have said, is irrelevant. The direct quotation from the article subject refutes any claim that she intended to endorse ID. FCYTravis (talk) 17:46, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

No one is trying to state that Picard supports ID. This is a complete strawman and just being used as an opportunity to continue this pointless fight.--Filll (talk) 18:12, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Exactly. We aren't trying to use the petition to make it look like she supports ID. All I am interested in at this point is accurately describing the petition. Guettarda (talk) 18:56, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Guettarda, you say that "It was used to attack evolution and promote Teach the Controversy (and other DI campaigns)". This is very similar to the language FM and others here have use to describe the petition, and is trivially clear from the sources presented, but as I pointed out above, this is not the same as the language you appear to be advocating for the text. What's wrong with "petition is used to promote"? - Merzbow (talk) 18:10, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Actually at this point I am not advocating any language. I am trying to hash out broad ideas that underly the issue. I was working toward language when Kim, in his usual style, threw a spanner in the works. If we can hash out the underlying issues, then wording becomes just an issue of style. If the underlying issues aren't addressed, then we end up, inevitably, with another round of edit wars and arguments. Guettarda (talk) 18:55, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

I believe things have gotten quite muddied, but it basically comes down to how to describe the petition. As has been said before, describing it as supporting ID suggests that Picard signed it intending to do so. I do not believe we have evidence to suggest that. However, we all agree that it has been used to support ID. Phrasing it that way does not make any implications as to what Picard may or may not have intended by signing the petition. Whether the petition "promotes ID" or "is used to promote ID" is the issue. I actually feel that Filll and FM have both stated the latter multiple times, so I haven't quite figured out what they are fighting for. Sχeptomaniac^{χαιρετε} 19:24, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

I have said this over and over and over on this page. But somehow, no one listens. Interesting. 10 months ago, there were two major complaints about this page. WP:UNDUE because a large volume of copyright-violating material had been removed. This has now been corrected. WP:BLP because we did not have a direct statement from Picard to include, although the New York Times had asked for one over and over and over, and we had asked for one over and over and over. This has now been corrected. So the two major complaints have been answered. However, the fighting continues. And why? Well as I said before, obviously something else is going on here. People have what they wanted, supposedly, but they still want to fight. Hmm...--Filll (talk) 18:18, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Actually, Filll, you have already agreed with "them" on this page multiple times. Why do you continue to fight? Sχeptomaniac^{χαιρετε} 19:24, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

The only "them" I am agreeing with are those who want to have an NPOV article that follows the sources and does not violate copyright. I have been involved since I volunteered to fix this article at Moulton's request back in August and told him exactly what we needed (1) more content on her career that is not plagiarized and (2) a statement from Picard on her position. We have (1) and (2) now, and we also have a huge volume of people who have appeared out of noplace (I wonder why?...hmmm....) and for who (1) and (2) are not enough and in fact there is plenty of sabre rattling for far far far more. Well I will just try to make sure this article follows Wikipedia principles, following up on the task I have been doing since last August. Is that a problem?--Filll (talk) 19:47, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Odd for you to say that Moulton is your reason for being here, since you edited this article before he did. As for the other editors, I know a couple focus heavily on BLP issues, so were probably brought in by the BLP noticeboard posting. I've had the page watchlisted myself, though I was busy previously and didn't see the conflict until yesterday. Really, your unfounded insinuations are getting a bit silly. If you feel something untoward is going on, have some actual evidence and do something about it. Otherwise, quit the attempts to poison the well, as it's increasingly apparent to me that's all you are trying to do, as you just make excuses when asked for actual evidence. Logical fallacies do not become you.

The current issue is very specific. I just explained it quite simply above, I believe. The issue is whether or not we are going to use wording that implies something we don't seem to have any knowledge, much less proof, of. Is there something you don't understand? Sχeptomaniac^{χαιρετε} 20:41, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

The second epsilon (χαιρετε) should be an eta I think. Still, very cool. &#0149;Jim62sch&#0149;^dissera! 21:06, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Thanks. I'll admit my Greek needs a lot of work, but I believe in this context the epsilon is correct. Ending in an eta might be necessary in the context of some sentences, but it's spelled that way when used as a salutation. Sχeptomaniac^{χαιρετε} 21:17, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

You may be right, I'm not real sure on this one. I know that when pronounced it's got an eta sound, but ... Of course, I'm too lazy to get my Liddel-Scott out right now.  :) &#0149;Jim62sch&#0149;^dissera! 22:15, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Nothing like making negative insinuations and taking a few liberties with the facts, is there? Let me try to address this latest unfounded attack:

• Odd for you to say that Moulton is your reason for being here, since you edited this article before he did.

Is that so? Well Moulton first edited this talk page [13] 3:07 August 23, 2007. Filll first edited this talk page [14] 4:08 August 23, 2007, 1 hour 1 minute later.

I called Moulton and spoke to him for several hours on the phone because of his pleading for assistance on that day. I still have the phone records for this. You should know this from reviewing the materials associated with the RfC, if you were being at all diligent before making such outrageous accusations.

I did clean up the main page considerably on August 8, 2007 [15]. But I have generally paid very little attention to this article's mainpage, and have edited it 7 times to date. Four of those edits were on August 8, 2007.

Moulton first edited the main page on August 22 at 00:52 [16].

I would never have paid more attention to this article except that Moulton asked for assistance. Even still, I have hardly edited the main page of the article at all. I have put huge efforts into trying to teach Moulton how to operate on Wikipedia, which he steadfastly rejected over and over and over.

• As for the other editors, I know a couple focus heavily on BLP issues, so were probably brought in by the BLP noticeboard posting. I've had the page watchlisted myself, though I was busy previously and didn't see the conflict until yesterday.

Who knows why they were brought in? There is evidence of all kinds of canvassing offwiki, but who knows?

• Really, your unfounded insinuations are getting a bit silly. If you feel something untoward is going on, have some actual evidence and do something about it.

As I said before, is there some sort of world crisis going on that depends on me acting faster? Please give it a rest. What is it to you?

• Otherwise, quit the attempts to poison the well, as it's increasingly apparent to me that's all you are trying to do, as you just make excuses when asked for actual evidence.

That is a vile offensive crock of nonsense. I am trying to get people to stop fighting frantically to engage in OR and make all kinds of assumptions that are at odds with our sources. I also have been bending over backwards to keep my fellow editors out of trouble. Is that a problem for you? Is it against policy? Then if I have violated policy, why not file an Arbcomm case against me?

• Logical fallacies do not become you.

Mind your own.

• The current issue is very specific. I just explained it quite simply above, I believe.

I see the tendentious twisting of logic. Yeah, real simple.

• The issue is whether or not we are going to use wording that implies something we don't seem to have any knowledge, much less proof, of.

We have a few facts and a few sources. And that is what we propose to base the article on. What is wrong with that? Does that offend you somehow? It must I guess.

• Is there something you don't understand?

I do not understand what you hope to gain by continually gaming the system like this.

Have a nice day.--Filll (talk) 21:39, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Sourcing, etc.

Wow. A lot of activity on this page in a brief span of time. I'll add just one comment to the mix right now: we cannot use the DI, or any highly partisan source, for anything other than what they say. Guettarda stated it clearly: "Like any political organisation, the DI is an unreliable source, but they are a useful corroborating source. Primary sources are useful for corroboration, but they shouldn't be taken as reliable, especially when the contradict reliable sources.". We have tons of sourcing which makes it clear the document was created and used for promotion of ID. No one is arguing that Picard did not sign it. Are we all in agreement on those points? If not, please provide your (concise) reasoning below, thanks much. KillerChihuahua^?!? 12:40, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Incorrectly framed, in my opinion. Perhaps a response to Merzbow's of 07:14, 7 May 2008 might be more helpful. --Relata refero (disp.) 12:51, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Yes I think we all agree about the fact that she signed and about the intentions and actions of the Discovery Institute. That said ... "was created for," and "is used to promote" do not equate to "the petition promotes." In both of those former cases we have human agents (at the Discovery institute) about whom we can impute first intent ("was created for") and second action ("is used to promote"). In the controversial language I and others don't agree with it is wished that we impute the intent and actions of these human agents onto the petition itself--the petition "promotes intelligent design." But the petition does not clearly show any such intent on its own, nor can it act by itself to promote anything other than what it says. Then we have a situation in which other human agents who agree with this petition are implicated not in the language of the petition but in the intentions and actions of these original human agents (the Discover Institute). We simply cannot do this without some verification that the human who signed the petition agrees with the intent and actions of the people who created a petition, the language of which does not make either those original intentions or those subsequent actions self-evident.PelleSmith (talk) 13:12, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Pellesmith's failure to understand policy

I've created this subheading for transparency.PelleSmith (talk) 13:57, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

It might be nice for you to actually review and understand WP:PSTS instead of just blindly repeating errors and misrepresentations. This is Wikipedia, and we follow certain policies. If you do not like those policies, there are many places that have different policies that you can consider. For example, have you considered:

This discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
CreationWiki Research ID Wiki Conservapedia Iron Chariots Conservapedia Wikinfo

None of these have pesky problems like WP:NPOV and WP:NOR and they have different standards for WP:RS and so on. Not every wiki is going to be to everyone's taste.--Filll (talk) 13:24, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Where is the original research exactly? Diffs or quotes would be nice as I mentioned above. And please do refactor your commentary so as to remove the irrelevant link spam you have posted here.PelleSmith (talk) 13:30, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

I think you should learn our policies first. I am not going to spoon feed you. And I think rather than removing links meant to suggest some helpful alternative to those of you that do not want to follow Wikipedia policies, the time is quickly approaching when we will have to userfy these repetitive WP:TE and WP:DE objections.--Filll (talk) 13:35, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Fill making baseless accusations is entirely unhelpful and entirely against Wikipedia policy. Hiding behind ... "i'm not going to spoon feed you" is a cheap ploy that is disingenuous. I am aware of what the policy says, and do see the immense irony in someone who refuses to produce any sources for his claims linking to a policy about sourcing. For the last time, I didn't bring this source here, FeloniusMonk did. Cheers.PelleSmith (talk) 13:43, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps one of you should open a case with one of the mediation pathways. This is getting circular. And please, dear god, think of the windmills! Kyaa the Catlord (talk) 13:43, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Tilting at windmills is a time honored tradition. Oh Sancho! When will you learn to just accept. :) Ottava Rima (talk) 15:09, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

So you did not know that WP:PSTS is part of WP:NOR policy? Well now you do.--Filll (talk) 13:49, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Right when I asked "where is the original research" I did so on a whim ... PelleSmith (talk) 13:50, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

So why abuse Wikipedia procedures on a "whim"? You know that violates WP:POINT, a sanctionable offense.--Filll (talk) 13:54, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Again, may I suggest bringing your case to one of the mediation pathways, medcab perhaps? Kyaa the Catlord (talk) 13:56, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Whatever. I think the policy is clear. We just have some people that want to ignore policy or invent their own.--Filll (talk) 14:02, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

I am confused here. Could you summarise what the PSTS error that is being made is? I'm usually so good at spotting it... --Relata refero (disp.) 15:04, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

We favor secondary and tertiary sources over primary sources. Primary sources are used, but sparingly and we use secondary and tertiary sources to interpret them.--Filll (talk) 15:19, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, I'm aware of the policy, I enforce it almost daily in various contentious situations. I was asking how, specifically, it is being violated here. Relata refero (disp.) 15:29, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Relata I think I know what he's referring to. Please allow me to try my best to interpret PSTS since he is not willing to do so publicly. Here are some possibly relevant passages from PSTS with suggestions as to what they probably mean in this context:

1. "Drawing conclusions not evident in the reference is original research regardless of the type of source." -- Perhaps he wants us to know that it is original research to claim that the source promotes something (intelligent design) that is not mentioned therein.
2. "Any interpretation of primary source material requires a reliable secondary source for that interpretation." -- Here maybe he wants to bolster the above point by insisting that interpreting the primary source to mean something it does not explicitly state (e.g. that the source promotes intelligent design) requires a secondary source.
3. "To the extent that part of an article relies on a primary source, it should: only make descriptive claims about the information found in the primary source, the accuracy and applicability of which is easily verifiable by any reasonable, educated person without specialist knowledge, and make no analytic, synthetic, interpretive, explanatory, or evaluative claims about the information found in the primary source." -- I think this is more of the same. I believe he must feel strongly about those who claim that their secret and "specialist knowledge" enables them to see the source for more than its stated purpose.
4. "Wikipedia articles should rely on reliable, published secondary sources. All interpretive claims, analyses, or synthetic claims about primary sources must be referenced to a secondary source, rather than original analysis of the primary-source material by Wikipedia editors." -- OK so he must feel very strongly about this. No way are we to make claims about what the petition promotes without a secondary source to back it up! Maybe this is a call for a secondary source to verify the claim "the petition promotes intelligent design." I mean it must be.

Relata that is the best I can do. I hope this helps. Cheers.PelleSmith (talk) 17:19, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Completely false and in fact tendentious interpretation of WP policy. Nice but not the smartest thing to try.--Filll (talk) 17:46, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Well then it should be obvious if you just read the talk page. Obviously we have some arguing that we should go with "plain reading" of primary sources. And it should be obvious what that means in terms of policy.--Filll (talk) 16:36, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

PSTS and OR

• Drawing conclusions not evident in the reference is original research regardless of the type of source. What conclusions are "evident" in the source, and what conclusions aren't?

We are skeptical of claims for the ability of random mutation and natural selection to account for the complexity of life. Careful examination of the evidence for Darwinian theory should be encouraged.

What conclusions are evident from the source? That depends on your underlying knowledge base. To a child starting school it would probably be evident that there are two sentences, thirty-two words. To someone who had something less than an high school-level understanding of evolution (assuming that evolution was actually covered in their class) it would seem to be saying "we are skeptical of claims that {evolution, Darwinism, Darwinian evolution} can account for the complexity of life, and that the evidence for {evolution, Darwinism, Darwinian evolution} should be carefully examined".

To someone with a slightly more complete understanding of evolution, it would be evident that the petition is saying "we are skeptical that two elements of evolutionary theory can explain the diversity of life, and that the evidence for evolution should be carefully examined". Someone familiar with the creationist movement would read it as "we are skeptical of claims that [a common creationist caricature of evolution] can account for the complexity of life (duh), and that the evidence for [a common creationist caricature of evolution] should be carefully examined (standard creationist talking points which are meant to sow disinformation)".

All conclusions beyond the first are "not evident". This is a case where secondary and tertiary sources are especially important.

• Any interpretation of primary source material requires a reliable secondary source for that interpretation. And these have been provided. The Skip Evans article is a good starting point.

• To the extent that part of an article relies on a primary source, it should: only make descriptive claims about the information found in the primary source, the accuracy and applicability of which is easily verifiable by any reasonable, educated person without specialist knowledge, and make no analytic, synthetic, interpretive, explanatory, or evaluative claims about the information found in the primary source.

With an intentionally ambiguous document like this, there isn't a single standard for what an "educated person without specialist knowledge" would make of it...It is designed to feed off of misunderstandings. Someone with a basic understanding of biology would see through this document, someone with major misconceptions would fall for its disinformation. So the question is - did their education help the "educated person", or did their prior misconceptions prevent them from learning? From the studies I have read, a substantial proportion of American students emerge from intro biology courses with their misconceptions firmly in place (and I'm not just talking about creationist ideas, but a broader misunderstanding of what evolution is.) I haven't seen comparable data for Europeans, Canadians or Australians (where creationist ideas are held by a much smaller minority), let alone data for people elsewhere in the world.

• Wikipedia articles should rely on reliable, published secondary sources. All interpretive claims, analyses, or synthetic claims about primary sources must be referenced to a secondary source, rather than original analysis of the primary-source material by Wikipedia editors.

The problem we have had here is that several editors (Travis most notably) want to replace secondary sources with their own interpretation of this primary source material. The document is intentionally ambiguous - there is no such thing as a "plain reading". There is an informed reading, an uninformed reading and a misinformed reading. All of these are interpretations of the text. The misinformed reading (which Travis called a "plain reading") is, in fact, the most problematic.

The fact that the petition is part of the DI's campaign to undermine evolution and promote ID is well established. The fact that the petition has been used as part of the DI's campaigns to undermine the teaching of science in schools is well supported. (Chang, for example, opens with that statement.) Guettarda (talk) 18:48, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

The reference to the Skip Evans piece (this one?) confuses me quite a bit. Evans basically says that we can't be sure if signatories of the petition even, in our words, "question evolution," and that there is a vast range of beliefs represented in no small part because of how deceitful the language in the petition is. His argument makes a very strong case for Relata's original suggestion to simply link the DI and to link the petition ... drawing no conclusions as to what it promotes, or how it has been used. I'm confused as to how you suggest we read Skip Evans here. Particularly I'm confused as to how we are to use his article to promote more definitive and leading language about the petition like ... "the petition promotes intelligent design." Please help me understand.PelleSmith (talk) 19:45, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Evans: Under close examination, the text of both the leading paragraphs and the statement attested to appear to be very artfully phrased. He explains how ambiguous the statement is, and how meaningless a "plain reading" of the text would be. Which is why we can't rely on it as a primary source that can be reliably interpreted by the average "educated person". Guettarda (talk) 20:20, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

One problem arises with this view in that it becomes hard to claim that anyone can interpret this document then, especially given that the source claims that there are clearly various interpretations floating around amongst those who signed it. Without knowing what Picard's particular interpretation was, to say that the document means X or promotes Y becomes even more difficult, again given what this source tells us. I prefer at least being able to say that the petition "challenges evolution."PelleSmith (talk) 21:35, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps you can quote Travis here, or at least paraphrase the interpretation that you think he is taking from the document. I see no objection on his part, or anyone else's to the idea you have outlined here that "the petition is used as part of the DI's campaigns to undermine evolution and promote ID." We are all comfortable with the language that is presently in the entry stating that the petition "is used by the institute to promote intelligent design." In fact I believe Travis authored this very language, or something very similar at least. The fact that the secondary sources state this is obvious and acknowledged by all. What we don't understand is where the secondary sources state that the "petition promotes intelligent design." So please tell us what the faulty interpretation is so we can take it from there. Thanks.PelleSmith (talk) 19:11, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

[17], for example. Guettarda (talk) 20:23, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Ok the example states that a plain reading, according to Travis, allows us to write that the petition "challenges evolution," but nothing else. Are you saying that we should not include this? So the primary source is entirely useless and we cannot use it to say that the petition challanges evolution?PelleSmith (talk) 21:31, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Yes. Guettarda (talk) 21:45, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

In other words it would help if you state clearly what his "misinformed reading" is so that we can at least understand what the debate is about.PelleSmith (talk) 19:14, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

I agree that phrases like "plain reading" are unhelpful. I think a useful mental exercise here, for all participants, is to treat the petition as opaque. We should make no reference to its language at all in our discussions here, and simply point to what secondary sources claim about the petition. Given that, my issue is still that I haven't seen a secondary source claim the petition inherently promotes ID, only that the DI uses it for such purposes. - Merzbow (talk) 19:18, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Its all a matter of interpretation, as Guettarda points out. And different sources interpret it differently. The DI interprets things differently than the NCSE for example. And the NAS and the AAAS interpret this differently than Focus on the Family. And what is your rush? No one yet has told me what their rush is.--Filll (talk) 19:52, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

It's not that artfully posed, nor is it all that vague. The use of "random" in the first sentence, and the entire second sentence itself leaves no doubt as to the purpose of the petition. If the signatories didn't catch the drift of that purpose, it just means that they are idiots who should not enoble themselves by claiming to be scientists. &#0149;Jim62sch&#0149;^dissera! 20:52, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

So it is clearly anti-evolution?PelleSmith (talk) 21:27, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Clever.  ;) &#0149;Jim62sch&#0149;^dissera! 21:29, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

There is indeed no rush; in fact I was going to suggest that we slow down the discussion a bit so that everyone has more of a opportunity to respond to points before they get buried too deeply. - Merzbow (talk) 22:32, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Sorry - I just spent the last hour or so putting this together - I didn't notice your suggestion to slow down. Guettarda (talk) 01:10, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

Proposing some language

I think the comment Merzbow made pretty much describes what I was trying to get at - we will have a hard time trying to describe the petition. Taking the article by Skip Evans into account (and the Chang article), I think we can't really describe the petition - all we can do is describe how is it used.

Yesterday, before Kim disrupted the proceedings, I had written (but hadn't posted) this:

OK, now for the difficult bit: how do we phrase the statement about the petition (variable areas are in italic and bold italic

Current wording:

Picard was one of 514 scientists and engineers who signed "A Scientific Dissent from Darwinism", a controversial petition circulated by the Discovery Institute that questions evolution and is used by the institute to promote intelligent design

KC's proposal:

Picard is one of the signatories of the Discovery Institute's "A Scientific Dissent From Darwinism," a controversial petition which promotes intelligent design by attempting to cast doubt on evolution.

My wording

Picard was one of 514 scientists and engineers who signed "A Scientific Dissent from Darwinism", a controversial petition which was circulated by the Discovery Institute and used in their campaigns to discredit evolution and to promote the teaching of intelligent design in public schools

Dave's wording

She is one of the signatories of the Discovery Institute's controversial petition "A Scientific Dissent From Darwinism which has been used in campaigns to discredit evolution and to promote the teaching of intelligent design in public schools

RR's wording

Picard was one of 514 scientists and engineers who signed "A Scientific Dissent from Darwinism", a controversial petition circulated by the Discovery Institute. The petition has subsequently been used by the institute to promote intelligent design

Ignoring the first part (which really isn't a substantive difference, IMO), we have

1. that questions evolution and is used by the institute to promote intelligent design. (current)
2. which promotes intelligent design by attempting to cast doubt on evolution. (KC)
3. and used in their campaigns to discredit evolution and to promote the teaching of intelligent design in public schools. (me)
4. which has been used in campaigns to discredit evolution and to promote the teaching of intelligent design in public schools. (Dave)
5. The petition has subsequently been used by the institute to promote intelligent design. (RR)

Since then, we've generated a few hundred k of text.

Working with those five versions, I decided to modify them to reflect the conversations we've been having. If we follow Evans and treat the petition as difficult to interpret, we need to strike the whole "questions evolution" bit. It may. Or it may not. We don't really know what people thought they were signing. We also don't know how the petition was presented by the DI, so I don't think we should make any strong statement on timeline. So I think we need to strike "subsequently". That adds a level of precision that we just don't have. While the DI is the driving force behind ID, the petition has been used more broadly by ID supporters (try googling the phrase). So rather than saying it was used by the DI, I think we should say that it was used by the ID movement. Finally, the issue of casting doubt on evolution is a real part of the issue. We can't say that the petition itself questions evolution (no one knows what it really says). Chang said In the recent skirmishes over evolution, advocates who have pushed to dilute its teaching have regularly pointed to a petition signed by 514 scientists and engineers...The petition, they say, is proof that scientific doubt over evolution persists. In other words, the way in which the petition is used is to cast doubt on the fact that evolution is universally accepted by the scientific community. KC said that already, so let's stick with her wording. Finally, let's keep thing simple - in the interest of brevity, we probably don't really need the word teaching...KC's version was ok without it.

1. that questions evolution and is used by the institute the intelligent design movement to promote intelligent design by attempting to cast doubt on evolution.
2. which promotes intelligent design by attempting to cast doubt on evolution.
3. and used in their campaigns by the intelligent design movement to discredit evolution and to promote the teaching of intelligent design in public schools.
4. which has been used in campaigns by the intelligent design movement to discredit evolution and to promote the teaching of intelligent design in public schools.
5. The petition has subsequently been used by the institute by the intelligent design movement to promote intelligent design by attempting to cast doubt on evolution.

Working from KC's version (since she's just so much cooler than any of the rest of us), we end up with: (drumroll)

Picard is one of the signatories of the Discovery Institute's "A Scientific Dissent From Darwinism", a controversial petition which the intelligent design movement uses to promote intelligent design by attempting to cast doubt on evolution.

Can we work with that? Guettarda (talk) 01:10, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

@Guettarda: there were about 2 or 3 things I could have done that looked like they might work, and I picked one. Possibly I picked the wrong one, or possibly all the options I saw were wrong. Either way, the approach didn't have the intended effect. My apologies. I'm going to figure out why what I did failed. --Kim Bruning (talk) 02:43, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

I think I see what went wrong. I posted a statement pushing for a particular state, when that point had actually just been reached by others. In my defense, there was so much text prior to that point that I was forced to speed read to catch up again (and the shift in consensus thus eluded me), but that doesn't absolve me of the responsibility of having made the mistake. My apologies once again. I'll try to modify my methods so it won't happen again. --Kim Bruning (talk) 02:50, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

Nah, it was fine. It wasn't as if I hadn't argued for that point already. --Relata refero (disp.) 05:52, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

Guettarda, I think that looks very good.--Filll (talk) 01:22, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

That version is fine with me; I don't see it as implying that Picard supports ID. I think it will fit well with the rest of the paragraph. — Carl (CBM · talk) 02:13, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

Yes, it looks good. Sharp analysis. - Merzbow (talk) 02:26, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

Yes, that's a fine distillation of the issue which accurately describes the conflict without implying that Picard has taken any side in it. Well done. FCYTravis (talk) 02:28, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

Yes this solves the issues presented by the absurd language of "the petition promotes intelligent design." Yes, no doubt in the world, and yes I support this version so that we can move on from this mess. Yet I can't help but feeling like I've been had. With the ease at which Filll et al accept this proposal it becomes abundantly clear that hours were wasted arguing over that other more radical construction, for naught. Why is that exactly? This new version only seems like a compromise in light of that other absurdity, but it really isn't much different from the original version that started this mess. The original language read: "The petition, a two-sentence statement, has been widely used by its sponsor, the Discovery Institute, and some of its supporters in a national campaign to discredit evolution and to promote the teaching of intelligent design in public schools." The new language simply changes Discovery Institute into the more vague entity "intelligent design movement" and removes the specificity of the promoting of intelligent design "in schools." That said, is Picard part of "the intelligent design movement?" Did she consciously and/or unconsciously lend tacit support to what the movement is doing? These are all suggestions that continue to arise through what is still a "guilt by association approach," since it is clear to anyone with half a brain that those who signed the petition have "doubts about evolution" and we would now be claiming that "casting doubt on evolution" is the mechanism through which the ID movement is promoting intelligent design. The real difference between then and now, what actually tones down the guilt by association, comes from the surrounding information that we have from the newer source, in which Picard directly addresses intelligent design. The question remains however: Why do we need to comment on what the ID movement is using the petition for if Picard isn't known to be part of that movement? The answer given then was "context," but context is only important if it is meaningful to the task at hand, and how is this context meaningful to Picard's biography? In order to associate her with intelligent design, and perhaps even worse, with the "intelligent design movement?" The original questions and concerns have now been washed away in a sea of useless argumentation over nothing, but if you are OK with this new version at least realize that it hasn't changed much. If consensus forms around this version then so be it, and as I said at the outset this is infinitely better than that other absurdity, but I still feel had.PelleSmith (talk) 03:29, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

I still think the "subsequently" in my version added useful, relevant information, but am pleased by the "used". --Relata refero (disp.) 10:51, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

Some sources that support Guettarda's version

The intelligent design movement employs "doubting Darwinism", where Darwinism is used as a synonym for common descent and other features of evolution as a way to promote intelligent design. It does this by trying to present a dichotomy where one has to choose evolution or its alternative, intelligent design.

For example,

ID and creation science share the belief that the mainstream scientific discipline of evolution is largely incorrect. Both involve an intervening deity, but ID is more vague about what happened and when.

Indeed, ID proponents are tactically silent on an alternative to common descent. Teachers exhorted to teach ID, then, are left with little to teach other than "evolution didn't happen."[18]

and

ID creationists have no empirical data to support ID. Like earlier creationists, they have established a false dichotomy between evolution on one hand and ID on the other, betting that if they can sufficiently discredit evolution, ID will be seen by potential supporters as more credible by default.[19]

Newsweek on February 7, 2005 weighed in to state:

In fact, the Discovery Institute doesn’t call for teaching I.D. in school either, only the “controversy” over Darwinism. But most scientists don’t believe there is one. The institute’s “Scientific Dissent From Darwinism,” whose operative sentence reads “We are skeptical of claims for the ability of random mutation and natural selection to account for the complexity of life,” has been signed by about 350 scientists. (AAAS has 120,000 members.)[20]

So Teach the controversy is just one of the Discovery Institute methods of promoting their ideas. They try to create the impression there is a controversy, and present a choice between ID and evolution, which they try to cast doubt on. They do not promote ID directly by this technique. They only try to weaken the other alternative:

And, adding insult to injury, Newsweek didn’t go for reporting unopposed the DI’s favorite trick, their list of 300-some scientists (well, some of them aren’t scientists, and most of them aren’t biologists, but whatever) who signed the DI’s ultra-vague, non-ID-supporting statement.[21]

Even those on the "creationist" or "intelligent design" side agree that this "Dissent from Darwinism" petition is just meant to promote intelligent design by attacking "Darwinism", that is, evolution:

...These words of wisdom are found in a document called "A Scientific Dissent From Darwinism", which has been signed to date by 400 scientists from various scientific disciplines. Since Darwin's theory has been entrenched in the public arena, you would expect a controversy to arise when scientists disagree about its claims to explain life on Earth. A battle of Darwinian proportions is raging in the public arena, but not over the "evidence" for Darwinism. This battle is over whether Darwin's theory should be challenged at all. It is a battle for survival.

This war is being waged against what we know to be 'Intelligent Design'.[22]

Clearly, the purpose of the petition is to promote intelligent design by casting doubt on evolution. This is recognized by both critics, the mainstream media, and supporters of the intelligent design movement.--Filll (talk) 01:22, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

There's a period in the see-also's

....must......fix.......argh! Xavexgoem (talk) 04:06, 8 May 2008 (UTC)