Talk:Scientology

South park episode?

There was a South park made about this. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Park_Scientology_episode (sry i dont how to link) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.1.73.86 (talk) 02:47, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Lots of viewers (including this editor) found the episode to be hilarious, but think about it: South Park has lampooned so many subjects--ranging from venture capitalist gnomes to Mormonism--practically every article in Wikipedia could be required to feature a South Park references section. And that would be kind of specious, considering that other fine TV series have also covered a similar amount of ground. Still, the episode evidently merits its own page, so maybe the article could include a "Pop-culture references" section linking to various other resources, if only for cross-reference purposes. However, I worry that such a section would devolve into a ridiculously consensual statement like "Many Scientologists did not enjoy the episode; however, many non-Scientologists did," etc. Rangergordon (talk) 10:40, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

There's a South Park Controversies article. The episode is noted extensively in there. See that article. Or see the article specifically for that episode.KriticKill (talk) 21:47, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

I decided to check up the Scientology page after watching some episodes of South Park again. From memory, there are three episodes completely dedicated to poking fun at Scientology. One is explicitly about Scientology while the other two heavily imply a connection. Season 5 episode 3: Super Best Friends, season 9 episode 12: Trapped in the Closet, and season 10 episode 1: The Return of Chef. Due to the fact that there have been 3 episodes dedicated to how absurd the makers of South Park feel Scientology is, it should be noted on the Scientology page. For Clarification, the first episode mentioned is about "The Church of Blainology". The second episode explicitly discusses Scientology. The third episode parodies the second episode's format but makes the topic about pedophilia. For review, each of the episodes can be viewed at http://www.southparkstudios.com/episodes/ (Edit: Ack, forgot the sign again) Zencyde (talk) 12:12, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

There's a long history of popular entertainment shows having episodes that poke fun at Scientology, either mentioning it directly or with thinly veiled references that are obviously intended to be Scientology: Millennium (TV series) (Jose Chung's Domesday Defence), Absolutely Fabulous, Peep Show (TV series), the film Bowfinger and so on. We're not obliged to put these in an encyclopedia entry on Scientology, but if you want to compile them into a separate article, go ahead.MartinPoulter (talk) 12:36, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

Scientology is not a 'destructive cult'

I think that is a one-sided opinion, I do NOT want 'destructive cult' under see also, anyone agree? I am a scientologist and I think that is quite offensive.

Well, as a member of the sect you're not objective. Those not involved are mch more objective in this matter.

Yes but if we write this article with the intetion of not offending scietologist then how can it be netural

It is a destructive cult, there is extensive documentation for this. Just as was the case with nazizm or communism - those were oppresive, destructive systems. And we write about it, about facts, not worrying about offending some communists or members of a nazi regime.

—Preceding unsigned comment added by Heartislove (talk • contribs) 14:18, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

Highly POV, considering the linked article does not mention Scientology at all, and removed. --Rodhullandemu 14:23, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

It is a destructive cult, have you ever seen the inside of an RPF camp? It looks like a concentration camp and is full of people that are physically harmed because the "church" finds them undesirable.

I think that you should relink it as scientology has been proven to be harmfull not only through legal action but the actual scientology documents themselvs talk of fair game and rehabilitation project force. Yet ask yourself why then does scientology do everything in its power to supress ANYTHING critical of them from the public eye? what has it to hide if not the fields of dead bodies. bodies not even born here. bodies stolen from other countrys so that they may work hard labour to build new church facilitys. I have seen the camps with my own eyes and have been in gold base. Its nowhere near as bad as it used to be but that does not change the cold fact of the matter. Slavery is wrong, scientology is wrong and no matter how much they try to surpress information and assault protesters they will fall.

They still deny the xenu story and I have no doubt you will as well. But the fact remains it is real and it is in l rons own handwritting. The same is said about all the curel and inhumans policys that exist in corporate scientology.130.156.142.10 (talk) 17:05, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

Well, entertaining and lurid as your comments are, they constitute original research and the issue of whether Scientology is a destructive cult is not addressed by either article. That's why the link has been removed. It is paramount that we maintain a neutral point of view. If you have reliable sources to state that Scientology IS a destructive cult, please feel free to cite them. --Rodhullandemu 17:13, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

Well, read about the cult a bit, then try to resolve the big dilemma of yours if it is a destructive, money grabbing cult or not. Educate yourself, then post here, not the other way around. Unless you have an agenda and try to make a dangerous sect look quite alright. What's next - gonna try to make Hitler be a nice fella? What you do is not entertaining, it is either ignorant or purposeful, thus wrongful. --Pitdog (talk) 23:36, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, but it doesn't quite work like that here. My only agenda here is to ensure that verifiability policy is adhered to. It isn't my job to do my own original research to make up my own mind as to whether Scientology is a "dangerous cult". That would be invalid, in spades. I reiterate: provide some reliable sources to state that Scientology IS a destructive cult, or not. No dilemma; your proposition, and therefore, by OUR rules, your proof. If you're not happy with that, please feel free to pursue your agenda elsewhere. --Rodhullandemu 00:07, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

What about the images of children working in the fields at gold base? What about the numerous lawsuites against the church for human rights violations. what about the actual leaked policy letter pened to paper by L ron hubbar himself? Is that not enough? It took us forever to get the xenu story to stay up without it getting removed. Even though that had plenty of evidence. Now look I see what your saying, while there are plenty of sources that when viewed togethure make one classify the church as a deystructive cult there is no actual research with the singular purpose of proving that. if there was it would use the resources already cited in this article as well as others. I will get some stuff togethure for you to read. I do recomend you go to whyweprotest They have all the leaked dox and durty secrets posted thier for all to see.130.156.142.240 (talk) —Preceding undated comment was added at 18:02, 13 November 2008 (UTC).

Reliable sources? --Rodhullandemu 00:07, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

While I agree that Scientology is a destructive and criminal cult preying on gullible people with sly tactics and manipulation, this really isn't the place for that discussion. Head over to alt.scientology if you want to cult bash them (and for the guy there who said he's a scientologist, you belong to a scam, not an actual religion. Anywhere else I would not give a wit about offending your 'religion') KriticKill (talk) 19:13, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

He is right you know, deystructive cult is deystructive. It kills people, forces them not to seek medical attention when they need it. You got your slave camps your ilegal activity, your physical and emotional abuse. The jenifer ghorman rape is a perfect example. She was told by her surperviser to move in with him. She had no choice and then she was repeatedly raped by him and the church did nothing. WHY? because he was a cacon. somebody who acording to the church can be "Forgiven the death penalty 10 times over"... That seems pretty deystructive to me. You look at all the people who blew the org they all have horrifying storys to tell about thier experieneces inside. they can't every last one of them be lieing. Mark my words after I am done citeing my sources this article will be forever linked with deystructive cults. Aaron Bongart (talk) 16:42, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

In the Latey Judgement (a High Court judgement in the UK), Scientology was described as "corrupt, sinister and dangerous" and referred to as a cult. Justice Latey described at length why he used those terms, and the judgement was upheld by the Law lords on appeal. Judgement of Mr Justice Latey, Re: B & G (Minors) (Custody) Delivered in the High Court (Family Division), London, 23 July 1984. I don't think this in itself justifies putting it in a list of dangerous cults on WP, but it legitimises a weaker, more careful statement.MartinPoulter (talk) 17:24, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

I agree thank you for backing my statement with the relevent research. I think somewhere on xenu.net there is a list of different court judges giving their two sence about the "church" and calling it a cult. I don't think they can be used here can they? Is the word of a judge considerd a decent source?Aaron Bongart (talk) 18:12, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

Over referencing

This articles reference list is massive, and it doesn't need to be so. There is no reason to have multiple references for a single point. For example, the article currently has 3 references for the fact that Scientology was created by L. Ron Hubbard. One would suffice. I will remove some of the extra references. DigitalC (talk) 21:59, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

I agree. And I see these are being used to push an agenda. Case in point is the 3rd paragraph which includes 6 citations to "prove" that Scientology is uniformly considered to be harmful etc. whereas all the references show is that 6 sources held negative opinions. This has been used to justify making an overly strong statement "Former members, journalists, courts and authorities in multiple countries have described the Church of Scientology as..." which requires a modification such as "some former members", etc. I personally know many former members and journalists who don't hold these views, and there have been many court decisions that have been favorable to the church. There are authorities who endorse church programs. For example, the Church was awarded American Flags and commendations by several US Reps. So citations are being used to "prove" premises which they do not prove at all IMO.Su-Jada (talk) 03:11, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

This is a controversial topic where just about every point or reference is fought over. Over-referencing can get ridiculous, but it's better to have over- than under-referencing. Having a maximum of one ref per factual statement is going too far IMHO. Su-Jada says "I agree" about the over-referencing point but goes on to complain about under-referencing. With "Former members, journalists etc." the implied quantification is "some"- it would be odd in English to read it as "all journalists, all courts" around the world. I agree that there could be a lot more references to back up the negative statement, but then this clashes with DigitalC's point that there should be no more than one.MartinPoulter (talk) 17:30, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

This sentence makes no sense in ordinary English

As I see it, one of the purposes of this page is to provide a succinct understanding of Scientology beliefs and practices to outsiders in plain English. As one myself, I can not decipher this sequence of words. It depends on too many definitions which may be considered by some to be jargon. If anyone can explain it to me, or phrase it in a better way, please do. Until then, I have removed it from the article. Spidern (talk) 05:18, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

An action must contain construction which outweighs the destruction it contains in order to be considered good. "Good is any action which brings the greatest construction to the greatest number of dynamics while bringing the least destruction. "An 'absolute wrongness' would be the extinction of the universe and all energy and the source of energy. . . . An 'absolute "rightness"' would be the immortality of the individual himself, his children, his group, mankind and the universe."

Thats Scientology for you. But hey, if you can't parse this, you must have a MU. I can paraphrase it, as "To be considered good, an action's benefits must outweigh its drawbacks". DigitalC (talk) 05:58, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

They've rephrased the philosophical argument about utility. For an action to be considered good, it needs to bring a higher ratio of good results to bad results than any other, and conversely for an action to be considered evil, it needs to bring a higher ration of bad results to good results than any other. It goes on to say that the best action would be one that brings immortality to people and / or mankind. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.137.201.28 (talk) 19:11, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

Removed KRC and ARC section

ARC and KRC triangles

The Scientology symbol contains two triangles which Hubbard called the "ARC triangle" and the "KRC triangle", respectively. The points of the lower triangle are said to represent Affinity (emotional responses), Reality (an agreement on what is real) and Communication. Scientologists believe that improving one aspect of the triangle "increases the level" of the other two.

The points of the upper triangle represent Knowledge, Responsibility and Control. Many auditing processes and training routines aim at increasing an individual's ability to gain knowledge of, take responsibility for and exert control over external and internal elements.

I have removed this section from the article because it fails to establish notability, and only uses a primary source. Seems like undue weight is also given to this section. ←Spidern→ 00:37, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

There are scholarly works that detail these Scientology beliefs from an independent perspective. They should be briefly mentioned, but absolutely not sourced to Scientology books themselves. I'll see what I can dig up. --GoodDamon 00:49, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

Any scholarly works that you can find would be very much appreciated. This page is in dire need of some solid academic information. ←Spidern→ 01:10, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

Agree with the removal of this material by [[::User:Spidern|Spidern]] ([[::User talk:Spidern|talk]] · [[::Special:Contributions/Spidern|contribs]]), the material was all sourced to dubious primary sources, as opposed to the more preferable WP:RS/WP:V secondary sources. Cirt (talk) 04:52, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

Here is another removal of content from the article for similar reasons. Posted here for discussion and archival, in the case that someone is able to find good outside sources. As of now, all of the other subsections of "beliefs" at least use some secondary sources in one way or another.(see below comment) ←Spidern→ 05:37, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

Tone scale

Main article: Tone scale

The tone scale characterizes human mood and behavior by rating it on a scale from −40 ("Total Failure") to +40 ("Serenity of Being"). Positions on the tone scale are usually designated by an emotion, but Hubbard said the tone scale could also indicate health, mating behavior, survival potential or ability to deal with truth. According to Scientology, lower positions on the tone scale indicate more intricate problems and greater difficulties in solving them for lack of communication. It is believed that the higher the person’s tone is, the better the person’s ability to communicate; and conversely for lower tones.

I recant what I said above about the beliefs section, Dianetics subsection is still entirely primary-sourced. ←Spidern→ 05:44, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

Better sources

I've found some good sources for overview information about the above topics, which is all we should go into. Too much detail would be undue weight for a summary style article. More detailed information should go in the Scientology beliefs and practices article, which also needs a primary sources cleanup.

So, on to the better sources:

• Neusner, Jacob (2003). World Religions In America. Westminster John Knox Press. ISBN 9780664224752. - Good for basic info on ARC and KRC triangles.
• Corrigan, John (2008). The Oxford Handbook of Religion and Emotion. Oxford University Press US. ISBN 9780195170214. - A brief overview of Hubbard's tone scale.

I don't see a need for much more than what either of these very reliable academic books provide. --GoodDamon 19:32, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

These are excellent choices.

I have also found a few more I recommend:

• Lewis, James R. (1997). "Clearing the Planet: Utopian Idealism and the Church of Scientology". SYZYGY Journal of Alternative Religion and Culture Volume : numbers 1-2 Winter-Fall 1997. Mandeville Press. ISBN 0-914829-42-4. - a brief description of the history of Scientology and Dianetics and some of its core beliefs, and biographical data on L. Ron Hubbard.
• Introvigne, Massimo (2002). "Religious Minorities and Anti-Cult Activity in Italy in Comparative Perspective". International Perspectives on Freedom and Equality of Religious Belief. J. M. Dawson Institute of Church-State Studies, Baylor University. ISBN 929182-66-9. {{cite book}}: Check |isbn= value: length (help) - a good reference for the religious nature of Scientology and why it was given religious recognition in Italy.
• Jennifer, Robinson (2002). "Scientology (Church of Scientology)". The Encyclopedia of Cults, Sects, and New Religions. Prometheus Books. ISBN 1-57392-888-7. - Description of Dianetics, Scientology training as a religious practice, as well as some historical information.Su-Jada (talk) 07:02, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Legal status

Is it appropriate to designate a legal status in this article? It seems to me that the Scientology article should be dealing with the beliefs and practices as they pertain to followers worldwide, not just a single organization (such as the CoS or CSI which may be based in a single country). Since different countries have often classified Scientology in very different ways, it seems like designating Scientology itself as non-profit would be incorrect. Wutudidthere...isawit (talk) 09:45, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

This is a good point. Cirt (talk) 10:33, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

well your correct, there is few things non-profit about scientology. For the most part it is a business. The gratuitous ammounts of money they save by useing slave labour to refurnish and build new facilitys is astronomical. Forgive me for sounding evil but you really got to hand it to them. I think hubbard said something about the best slave or prisioner being the one that thinks he is free. Something like that and he is right. If you look at how much the sea org people get paid to work from 7am to 11pm you would see its only 15euros a week. It is even worse in the US.130.156.142.240 (talk) —Preceding undated comment was added at 17:55, 13 November 2008 (UTC).

Agreed. The article needs a serious revamp of less Scientology doctrine, and more actual info. I would say sum most of the article down to a single section summarizing their beliefs. I can't believe that the church itself isn't actually writing this article. I've got a feeling we're going to need semi-pro status on it to make a real article out of it (I'd really love to see a section detailing their criminal exploits, like Operation Snow White, for example). KriticKill (talk) 15:29, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

There's a whole article on Operation Snow White. AndroidCat (talk) 01:30, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Should the section on legality include the case of Van Dyun v. Home Office, Case 41/74, [1974] ECR 1337? This is where the UK government rejected leave for a Dutch woman to enter the UK to take up a job as a secretary for the Church of Scientology UK. When the case was taken to the European Court of Justice the UK argued that activities of the Church of Scientology were "socially harmful" and it was reasonable to limit her freedom of movement on that basis. sb742 (talk) 16:15, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

Neutrality and inclusiveness

The unfortunate aspect about the Scientology Corporation's foundings and history is that it literally takes several books to cover all of it, all the crimes, human rights abuses, civil rights abuses, motivations, behavior, once-secret bait-and-switch bunko scams and everything else.

Wikipedia articles can't be nearly as inclusive as everyone (other than Scientology crime bosses and ringleaders) would like them to be because then the Wiki entry would literally be a thousand pages long.

I mention this because someone claiming to be a Scientology customer complained about Scientology being a "danger cult" -- which it is and which everyone recognizes as being factual and which belongs in any article about Scientology.

A reasonable solution would be to enumerate all of the massive exposures of Scientology's racketeering crimes, human rights abuses, and what not as covered in the numerous books, magazines, and newspaper articles which have been published since the 1960's. Neutrality means that one covers the truth and does not pander to the wishes of criminals, after all, but enumerating all the mountain of court documentation and the pile of books written by law enforcement, health officials, one-time ringleaders, and previous customers of the crime syndicate would help. Fredric Rice (talk) 23:53, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not a forum. Do you have a suggestion for improving the article? --GoodDamon 23:55, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Are you fucking retarded? Everything they said was about the article. If you're aspiring to be a wikipedia policy toughguy, you have just epically failed; congratulations. 96.237.59.92 (talk) 21:53, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

I think he is makeing a suggestion. He is basically asking people to do what I am doing. Summerising some of the more major crimes of scientology, source and cite them and then put them into the main article. This is what I am doing. The best part is NOBODY can dispute something about scientology if it is in L ron's own hand writting as for example his journal entries are. The ones showing him as a flamming racist. Nutrality actually means no shifting to biases of one side or the other, listing the good and the bad. So far the article has alot of nutrality but lacks insight on the darker more dangurous sides of the "church". Aaron Bongart (talk) 17:18, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

There is very little good side to Scientology. In the interest of neutrality, however, someone might want to note the considerable anti-drug work and funding that they do.KriticKill (talk) 17:12, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

You are aware that much of that work is against psychiatric drugs? I'm no fan of Ritalin or our society's drug-first mentality, but Scientologists literally don't believe a paranoid schizophrenic should be treated with anti-psychotic drugs. That's not exactly a point in Scientology's favor. --GoodDamon 17:56, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

There are separate articles about Narconon and CCHR, which are already linked from the Scientology article. I agree that their efforts should be described as "anti drug" rather than "anti drug abuse". Don't agree that depriving people of medication for reasons of pseudoscience counts as a good point.MartinPoulter (talk) 18:22, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

Yes yes, valid points all but, not all of the people in thoses rehabs need drugs, scientology does do some good. Albeit the methods of treatment in narconon are very bizzare and ritualist like pretending your inside the ash tray and then tahnking the ashtray. thats one of the things you hear about them doing. It's ironic that scientologists have no problem smokeing even though smokes are loaded with drugs, not to mention adictive and cancer causing ones. However hubbard DID say scientologists are immune to cancer if they are clear and up. So yeah deffinatly specific drug use rather then abuse, and also please try to point out the positive stuff little that there is, if only for the sake of nutrality. The activist in me wants scandal and controversy but the autistic in me was pure unbias and neutral facts. Aaron Bongart (talk) 17:31, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

This thing needs some work.

Since I am currently unable to edit the article directly I will post any changes here. I will not cite any of the sources of this information untill I am done skimming through the entirity of the article and posting edits here. After which I have posted all my sources most of which will be leaked scientology documents I will request the changes be made.

"It is believed that thetans were brainwashed by these extraterrestrial cultures as a means of population control. The belief of extraterrestrial origins are not taught to new members, but are only presented after members have advanced through the ranks of Scientology"

-The rank at which the xenu creation story is taught is "OT3". Sources:http://wikileaks.org/wiki/Scientology_cult_Hubbard_Class_VIII_Assists_Xenu_lecture_recording_1968

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"Scientology asserts that people have hidden abilities which have not yet been fully realized.[48] The Church of Scientology claims its tenets are not a matter of faith but of testable practice.[49] It is believed that further spiritual awareness and physical benefits are accomplished through counseling sessions referred to as "auditing".[50] Through auditing, it is said that people can solve their problems and free themselves of ethical transgressions and bad decisions.[51] Those who study Scientology materials and receive auditing sessions advance from a status of "preclear" to "Operating Thetan".

-I think somebody should point out that some of the things listed in scientology doctrine as abilitys of I think OT8 and above is the ability to "exteriorise" or walk through solid objects. Also move things with thier mind. Sources:

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"Conflicting statements about L. Ron Hubbard's life, in particular accounts of Hubbard discussing his intent to start a religion for profit, and of his service in the military.[14]"

- somewhere is shoudl mention that hubbard was a racist, and send letters to his first wife useing the N word. There are excerpts of different lectures he did were he said equally negative things about blacks. Its not extreamly important and would most lilly bias the article to much but it none the less should be mention that hubbards moderate dislike for minoritys was an inflence in the joining of the nazi party by scientology. I have a few old newspaper image of scientologist dressed up with swasticas I will post after I am done going through the article. Aaron Bongart (talk) —Preceding undated comment was added at 12:39, 14 November 2008 (UTC). Sources:

The South African native is probably the one impossible person to train in the entire world — he is probably impossible by any human standard.

–L. Ron Hubbard, PAB No. 119, 1 September 1957, as published in Level 0 PABS (c.1968, The American St. Hill Organization).

As long as a white foreman is there, they will prevent soil erosion; but the moment that a white foreman turns his back — boo! There goes the whole program. And you finally get up to the point of where he's [native] supposed to take care of something, a lesson which has never been taught to the native of South Africa.

–L. Ron Hubbard, 15th ACC (Power of Simplicity) lecture "Education: Point of Agreement", 30 Oct 1956.

…the African tribesman, with his complete contempt for truth and his emphasis on brutality and savagery for others but not for himself, is a no-civilization.

–L. Ron Hubbard, Scientology: The Fundamentals of Thought, Bridge Publications: Los Angeles, 1997.

[Y]ou'll find in Africans a fantastic amount of heavy space opera and so on, going on … which makes the colored African very, very interesting to process because he doesn't know why he goes through all these dances … and why he feels so barbarous ….

–L. Ron Hubbard, 1st Melbourne ACC, lecture "Principal Incidents on the Track", 27 November 1959.

They took people who were totally dedicated to certain tribal procedures … and said, "You're free." And they said, "Free. Free? Free. Ah! You mean there's no police anymore." Boom! Boom!

–L. Ron Hubbard, State of Man Congress, Opening lecture, 1 January 1960.

You shouldn't be scrubbing the floor on your hands and knees. Get yourself a nigger; that's what they're born for.

–L. Ron Hubbard, in a letter to first wife, Polly Grubb

Unlike yellow and brown people, the white does not usually believe he can get attention from matter or objects. … The white goes further. He often believes he can get attention only from whites and that yellow and brown people's attention is worthless. Thus the yellow and brown races are not very progressive, but, by and large, saner.

–L. Ron Hubbard, Scientology: The Fundamentals of Thought, Bridge Publications: Los Angeles, 1997.

Now it's of peculiar interest to an Arab country that there is a company and a certain set of bankers who also finance the World Federation of Mental Health. …and we see that although the KGB and so forth seems to be associated with the World Federation of Mental Health, their other organization in action seems to go back to Jewish Bankers.

–L. Ron Hubbard, Aides Conference, "Covert Operations", 2 November 1969

… gooks … really more or less savage at heart.

–L. Ron Hubbard, personal diary, June-July 1927

get more here http://www.solitarytrees.net/racism/deny.htm

Need I say more? So will somebody please make the neccecary adjustments to the article?

---

Discussion of proposed content additions above

I see no mention of the RPF or FairGame. I will provide documentation, I have images of Big blue where they have 3 bunks high and abotu 100 bunks to a small room. one bathroom. Stuff like that. I had alot more before somebody vandalised my articel. Keep in mind whoever is doing this that all this stuff is protected under the fair use act.

This is taking longer then I thaught, there is just SO MUCH dox to prune through. I mean in the past 8 months more scientology dox have been leaked in that time then at any other time in history combined. So there is alot of content. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Aaron Bongart (talk • contribs) 13:34, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

We can't over-utilize primary sources, and Hubbard's own writings -- as bizarre as they are -- are primary sources. Ideally, scholarly researchers and newspapers will publish reliable secondary sources of information providing detailed analysis of the leaked materials, but publishing that ourselves is not Wikipedia's job. Wikipedia is not news, and there's no deadline for getting material into it. It would be best if you tracked down reputable news and scholarly sources, and pointed us towards those instead. Those can be used. --GoodDamon 16:51, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Actually those can be used, there is no more realiable source then the handwirtten journals of the guy. You can't possibly say that "secondary" research is more solid and reliable then the original information. If that was the case we would define a word in the dictionary not by its definition but by somebody esles interpritation of the definition. I am sure you can see the clear lapse of logic in this. There is nothing that I am aware of that says secondary research is better then the ORIGINAL 2 + 2 = 4. Wiki is not about makeing peopls minds for them. If we are to substitue EVERY original source of information for one that is the result of an already made decision or interpritation we sevar the artery of nutrality and throw open the doors to bias and oppinion. These sources will be used because they are straight from church doctrine. It is impossible for there to be ANYTHING more "reputable" then the original. All fltrations and interpretations of the original open the door to leading opinions and biases against the church. I do not want that I was fairness. Aaron Bongart (talk) 17:22, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

I understand where you're coming from, but what you're describing is actually a big no-no in Wikipedia, original research. Please read WP:OR, Wikipedia's policy outlining the kind of research to avoid. Far superior to original research is the use of reliable sources, sources like newspapers and academic journals with strong histories of fact-checking and verification. If I read one of Hubbard's books -- and frankly, I don't have any desire to do that -- then report here on its contents, you have to trust my research to be accurate. If instead I make citations to Time magazine and reputable scholars who have investigated Scientology, then it's their research you're trusting to be accurate, and frankly, they have reputations for fact-checking that I do not. Citing leaked material you've looked at yourself makes you the source for that information, and that's against Wikipedia policy. But if you find a newspaper that reaches the same conclusions you have? That can go in. --GoodDamon 19:24, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

I see what you mean, but what is more reliable the the original physical journal? What fact checking would be required other than reading it and then makeing sure the copies of it are transcribed without error? If claim that Book A says "lolwut" and then I cite a source that has images and the original Book A am I not citing a source better then if Time goes to the same location I did and writes and article that cites the original Book A just as I did? Because that is the situation we are talking about.

For example if I say Unlike yellow and brown people, the white does not usually believe he can get attention from matter or objects. … The white goes further. He often believes he can get attention only from whites and that yellow and brown people's attention is worthless. Thus the yellow and brown races are not very progressive, but, by and large, saner.

–L. Ron Hubbard, Scientology: The Fundamentals of Thought, Bridge Publications: Los Angeles, 1997.

I am saying something about the source and the source is an original scilon doc. Called L. Ron Hubbard, Scientology: The Fundamentals of Thought, Bridge Publications: Los Angeles, 1997. So if I then provide a link to that actual document as a source is it THEN better then just refering to the site that mentions the reference?

So if I qoute one of his lecture and then for my source I provide a link to the actual audio lecture and transcript, as oppsed to just saying where it came from is it then acceptable being that nobody can fake the actual document with his voice/handwritting what have you? I mean if what you say is true then that woul explain why there isnt hundreds of images of the slave camps with 10 year olds toiling in bloody agony. Because the images are taken by somebody with a long zoom camera hiding on a hill somewhere. and not by time or some "reputable" source. So basically in Time goes and sits in the same spot and takes the same picture at the same time as a regular activist the image the activist takes is now allowed in wiki but the image taken by the time journalist is. While i am sure this rule has its practical uses I at the moment see it as a hinderence to anybody that has firsthand proof of something and just because of who they are it is inadmissible.. when in court that would not be the case. Aaron Bongart (talk) 19:41, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

The problem with that is that transcripts/recordings/etc. can be faked, and while I believe you -- heck, I've seen some of the same things myself -- there's no way for anyone reading the article to verify that what they are seeing or listening to in that link is legit, unless it's hosted on a website controlled by an organization or source with a reputation for fact-checking. Let me put it another way: You don't want to leave any doors open to challenging this material's inclusion in the encyclopedia, right? Well, unless the citations are performed properly, there's room to challenge. Which would you see as the more reliable statement?

• "L. Ron Hubbard said [insert crazy rant]" (Source: This possibly photoshopped scan hosted by my website)
• "L. Ron Hubbard said [insert crazy rant]" (Source: Time Magazine, Newsweek, The Los Angeles Tmes, etc.)

But fortunately, there has been a lot of reporting on these information leaks, and a lot of vetting of those leaks. So your job, now, is to find those reliable sources, avoid original research of your own, and provide those citations for incorporation into the article. --GoodDamon 23:48, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

I completly understand you now. I tottaly get it. The issue is whenever some reputable org decides to cover something scientology related they get fair gamed hardcore. The book "the complex" is going to be available soon and I will try to use some sources from that for the whole dangurous cult angle. I would like to point out that some of the racist rants from hubbard are cited in The bare faced messiah.. That would be considerd a useable source yes? Because it is a book that has been put under INTENSE legal scrutiny to the point where every last mention of hubbard was verified. Could racist jibble from the book be used here? If so then I would definatly go about it that way. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Aaron Bongart (talk • contribs) 00:20, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

Absolutely. Bare-Faced Messiah is a scholarly work by an author with a strong reputation for fact-checking, and as you say, it has been gone over practically word by word. In fact, it's already used frequently in the article. And since Anonymous hit the scene, no one's afraid of Fair Game anymore, which is why more and more newspapers cover Scientology unflinchingly. --GoodDamon 00:52, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

TAA DAAA http://forums.whyweprotest.net/123-leaks-legal/can-we-ever-friends-tape-85-audio-leak-scilon-disconnection-propaganda-leak-17594/ That tape was played in a court environment with loyers and all that jazz so it can be used right? I mean this SAME TAPE is in use in scientology today telling kids to drop out of school and join the org. If you watch the video they have like 2 judges there and the guy playing the tape is an ex-scilon who was exaplaining why he wanted to leave school. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=koLeIaYKP1I it also talks about disconnection.. somebody take a look at this and tell me i its useable. Aaron Bongart (talk) 07:41, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

Facepalm. AndroidCat (talk) 07:43, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

Aaron, I wish to remind you that you are not on WhyWeProtest--this is Wikipedia. I ask that you kindly respect Scientologists by referring to them as just that, no derogatory or terms or anything that could be taken as such. I'm sure you're acting with the best of intentions, but you need to conduct yourself in a respectable manner around here. As for the tape, I'm not quite sure what you're trying to accomplish with it. The tape itself is considered a primary source, and we try to look for objective secondary sources around here. A good place to look for secondary sources is on Google News, Google Scholar, Google Books, or Amazon's Search inside this book service. ←Spidern→ 14:58, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

No its secondary because it was played during a court. Right? That is how it works isnt it. If the authenticity of a source is verified by legal means like for example in bare faced messiah everything went through court then it can be used as a source I think. Also I was totaly unaware that "scilon" was anything other then a nutral term, I will use scientologist instead. If I am wrong in my useage of this source please tell me how. Last time goodDamon said the reason we use secondary stuff is because then it is more likly that the primary source the secondary one is derived from is accurate. So if this tape was braught into evidence in a court then are we not to assume that it has been verified as genuine? I learn best by trial and error, So I ask what is "sketchy" about this source? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Aaron Bongart (talk • contribs) 16:15, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

Just because they quoted the material doesn't make it a secondary source. It's still the same source, just quoted. See this reference from the WP:NOR page I mentioned earlier:

Borough of Manhattan Community College, A. Philip Randolph Memorial Library, "Research Help:Primary vs. Secondary Sources" notes that a secondary source "analyzes and interprets primary sources", is a "second-hand account of an historical event" or "interprets creative work". It also states that a secondary source "analyzes and interprets research results" or "analyzes and interprets scientific discoveries".

This means that had they interpreted the source, then it would have been counted as a secondary source. It doesn't magically become a second source if they simply quote it.

I would also kindly ask that you indent correspondence here to show the hierarchy of discussion. You may do so by adding a ":" for however many levels of replies there are. Please sign your posts with four tilde (~) characters. ←Spidern→ 17:20, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

I think I understand, So in any stretch of the meaning is this source verifiable? I think its more then qouting sure but if there is a legal case with evidence and the evidence is "jim's gun" could we then cite that court preceding as a source supporting that this specific gun belongs to none other than Jim? That was the logic I was useing.Aaron Bongart (talk) 22:41, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

Scientology not Church of Scientology

I'm making this comment because by reading the article about Scientology one may assume that Scientology and the Church of Scientology are the same thing. There are many people including myself that have left the Church of Scientology because -in short- they don't believe that L. Ron Hubbard's Scientology is taught and applied in the Church of Scientology.

To be fair, things that pertain to the Church of Scientology should be moved to a separate Wikipedia section. And the Church may be mentioned along with the other splinter groups that are mentioned in the Scientology page. Illusionist1 (talk) 23:32, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

The church is by far the largest organization in the world promoting Scientology (or a version of it, if you prefer), so any article that gives an overview of Scientology is necessarily going to touch on the church more than the splinter groups. Remember, this article isn't just about the Scientology belief system (that would be Scientology beliefs and practices), it's also about the scandals surrounding Scientology, the reactions of governments and other religions to it, etc. It's a summary style article that provides a bird's-eye-view of a lot of topics. --GoodDamon 23:57, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

This article is about the overall organization of Scientology (of which the Church of Scientology is only a part) as well as the belief system of Scientology. AndroidCat (talk) 05:53, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

Scientology's Money Trail

• Smith, L. Christopher (December 2008). "Scientology's Money Trail: Celebrities! Tax shelters! Bart Simpson! A glimpse into the finances of the secretive church". Condé Nast Portfolio. 2008 Condé Nast Inc. Retrieved 2008-11-19.

Good source of material on financial info about the organization. Cirt (talk) 18:41, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for this: added to the "Finances" section of the Church of Scientology article.MartinPoulter (talk) 17:34, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

Scientology was not 'created'

Scientology was not 'created'. You would not say that Christianity was created by Jesus Christ. You also would not say that the notion of God was created by a group of ignorant Egyptians and perpetuated by Jews. Similarly the jobs that a person has done are not relevant to describing something that they have discovered. We don't describe Christianity as: A body of beliefs and related practices created by a jewish Israeli criminal and carpenter Jesus Christ. The practices of Scientology were discovered by L Ron Hubbard. It would be objective to change the first sentence to: "Scientology is a body of beliefs and related practices written down by L. Ron Hubbard." If it is relevant it could carry on; "L. Ron Hubbard was the first practitioner of Scientology, he was also a science fiction writer." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.238.176.41 (talk) 21:17, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

WP:RS/WP:V secondary sources to back up this notion? Cirt (talk) 21:47, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

and I would certainly like to see evidence of it existing before the birth of Hubbard. --Rodhullandemu 22:27, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

Hubbard may not have been aware, but the word "Scientology" was used prior to his definition of it, for entirely different usage, back in 1871. Cirt (talk) 22:37, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

Christianity wasn't created by Jesus of Nazareth, it evolved (and continues to evolve) into various divergent sects based on the interpretations of his alleged life and teachings by successive generations of followers. Scientology was obviously created by LRH over the course of his lifetime. His life is well documented and, unlike Jesus, he explicitly wrote down his ideas. To say he "discovered" any religious truths while fucked up on amphetamines (or listening to his young son's rambling after forcing him to take speed) is to endorse the teachings of the Church of Scientology. Wormwoodpoppies (talk) 22:02, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

The IP address editor needs to be aware that Wikipedia's core policies and guidelines require that the vast majority of its content be derived from sources that meet the criteria established in WP:RS, that those sources be verifiable per WP:V, that the majority of those sources match the majority viewpoint, per WP:WEIGHT, and that the material be neutral in tone, per WP:NPOV (of which WP:WEIGHT is a sub-policy). Now, the vast majority of sources for material that meets these Wikipedia standards are overwhelmingly negative about Scientology. They establish a few things that most Scientologists would probably take issue with:

• That Scientology was invented by L. Ron Hubbard
• That Scientology is largely regarded as a cult
• That Scientology is abusive towards its members
• That as you progress through Scientology, you learn about Xenu and the rest of the so-called "space opera"

And so on. These are no doubt regarded as little more than lies by most Scientologists. But the thing is, Wikipedia makes no judgment as to whether they are lies or not. As far as Wikipedia is concerned, the secondary sources it relies on have already determined what is and is not true, and there is no need for Wikipedia to further vet it.

If most of the material about Scientology available from secondary sources were overwhelmingly positive and accepted Hubbard at his word -- that he "discovered" Scientology -- then this article would reflect that. --GoodDamon 00:42, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

Er, I somehow feel that this "majority rules" complex isn't constructive. Who's to say that Christianity wasn't created? It might have been. The majority of people might think otherwise; but, as you may recall, the majority of people used to believe the Sun was at the center of the Universe. Aren't sources required to be capable of proving ideas rather than simply being required to say something is right or wrong? Mind you, this is what it sounds like you're implying. Zencyde (talk) 13:32, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

The point is not whether Wikipedia reflects the views of the majority--its whether we reflect the verifiable majority. Although, it's often been said that if Wikipedia were around when the general assumption was that the world is flat, that is what would have been reflected on the Earth article. Wikipedia is NOT an outlet for truth, Wikipedia is a source of verifiable knowledge. All else is original research, which is not encyclopedic. ←Spidern→ 14:27, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

GoodDamon was just explaining the rules of Wikipedia. For me (from a Scientific Rationalism perspective) the No Original Research rule has been the hardest to get used to, for the sort of reasons you talk about, but it it were relaxed, every kind of crackpot would be editing their theories into articles, saying "just because every academic expert says this is rubbish, doesn't mean it is". That would be a disaster, so I'm persuaded the rule is a very good idea on the whole.MartinPoulter (talk) 14:28, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

Christianity may well have been created (although in many respects its more like an extension of Judaism), but the fact is no one has yet uncovered enough evidence to prove or disprove that. The sources in the Wikipedia articles for Christianity and its related articles reflect that. On the other hand, we know that Scientology was created by Hubbard. There's no mystical Scientology tradition that existed in mystery and shadow for 1500 or whatever years, that Hubbard 'discovered'. There are no archaeological digs to uncover the history of Scientology, we have and we know DEFINITIVELY with sources to back it up, that Scientology was created by Hubbard in the early 50's. There is no argument, and if you believe that Scientology existed before Hubbard then I have some swampland in Florida I wanna sell you. —Preceding unsigned comment added by KriticKill (talk • contribs) 15:46, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

Hubbard Center closed up in Samara

• Staff (November 20, 2008). "Hubbard Center closed up in Samara". Interfax. www.interfax-religion.com. Retrieved 2008-11-20.

Relevant source of info for this article. Cirt (talk) 16:01, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

Scientology Ceremonies?

I have removed the following section from the article. I have seen no academic or news mention of any of these ceremonies. The fact that the only sources used here are CESNUR and the Church of Scientology is concerning. Can anyone find any reliable secondary sources to back any of this knowledge up? ←Spidern→ 08:12, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

I've tried googling it, and I've taken a look through the religious references I have on hand, but I can't find anything about it. As we're not trying to reproduce in whole or in part any Scientology literature, I don't particularly mind if primary sources like those below are removed from the article. --GoodDamon 18:05, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

Spidern, you removed a core practice of Scientology from the "Scientology" article. The RS, Régis Dericquebourg is "head lecturer in social psychology at the University of Lille" [5] which makes him a far better source than most of the other "authorities" in this article. Shutterbug (talk) 21:06, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

The text you restored included two links to a primary source, and the CESNUR source alone -- which is of questionable validity as far as reliability is concerned -- does not support the content. --GoodDamon 21:13, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

CESNUR is not the source, but a scholar paper by Regis Dericquebourg supported by CESNUR. What yardstick are you using? Shutterbug (talk) 21:17, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

What do you mean by the "yardstick" comment? I don't follow. In any event, my primary point was that the link didn't support the text. If Regis Dericquebourg is a noted religious scholar, I don't see anything specifically wrong with using a CESNUR-hosted courtesy link, although the disclaimers about its usage at the top lead me to wonder if there might not be a better article elsewhere. --GoodDamon 22:55, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

I don't see anything wrong with using a CESNUR courtesy link either. That is why I disagreed when you removed it. The "yardstick" question meant what is your measure for a "reliable" source. When is a source reliable? I go as far as to say that private pages are NEVER a reliable source. Shutterbug (talk) 00:15, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

What's a "private page?" If you're referring to a non-news blog or something like that, I agree. But a "private page" can be something like that, or something like Rotten Tomatoes, which is now arguably as influential and respected in the world of movie reviews as Roger Ebert's review column. --GoodDamon 00:50, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

• Re CESNUR ... this Oxford University Press publication lists the CESNUR site as a recommended research source, along with peer-reviewed journals. Here another example of the academic reception of CESNUR. Hundreds of scholarly publications cite cesnur.org. Coverage in relevant literature: [6]. If anyone doubts the status of CESNUR as a reliable source, let's take this to RS/N. Jayen466 02:30, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

Ceremonies

First version: The Church of Scientology provides Sunday services as well as social ceremonies for marriage, birth, and death that are performed by an ordained Scientology minister. Most, if not all, of the actual ceremonies used were written by L. Ron Hubbard and are collected in the book, Ceremonies of the Church of Scientology. At a funeral service, the minister speaks directly to the departing spirit and grants forgiveness for anything the deceased has done so he can begin life anew.

Second version: The Church of Scientology provides Sunday services as well as social ceremonies for marriage, birth, and death that are performed by an ordained Scientology minister. Most, if not all, of the actual ceremonies used were written by L. Ron Hubbard and are collected in the book, Ceremonies of the Church of Scientology. At a funeral service, the minister speaks directly to the departing spirit and grants forgiveness for anything the deceased has done so he can begin life anew.

• No. Any discussion should take place here first and only go to RS/N if unresolved once the various positions have been clarified here. Dumping unformed discussions directly into noticeboards that roll over every week could be seen as an attempt to bury any real discussion. That tactic is getting old. AndroidCat (talk) 06:33, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
  • My issue with the source is that I can not find a single secondary source to corroborate the information. Were that requirement fulfilled, I would be more inclined to include the paragraph in the article. Furthermore, the only mention that I can find for Regis' background (aside from a brief mention on hrwf.net) is on four Scientology-owned sites plus a Scientology-slanted blog. ←Spidern→ 12:03, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

• • • Other sources documenting that there are such ceremonies are not difficult to find. See this US Army Manual or this description of Sunday services etc. More such sources can be found. You may find it useful to use http://books.google.com/ (google books) for your searches. We can cut back on some of the detail if we find it is not covered in secondary sources. Jayen466 12:39, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
      • Thanks for the sources. I had checked scholar but neglected to check books. ←Spidern→ 13:27, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

• I'm not sure that military organization guides should be seen as authoritative. They have no particular interest in recognizing or dismissing the beliefs of men and women in their commands. (If it helped morale, they'd don colanders and do noodley touch-assists for the FSM.) Until recently, the US Navy was publishing a Scientology section on their site that was sometimes used as a reference here–except that it was copied from the Ontario Consultants on Religious Tolerance site, and, at least the most recent version, directly written by Scientology. (There was also a frequently overlooked disclaimer on the US Navy site.) AndroidCat (talk) 04:59, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

I think the above will do to document that such ceremonies exist and have been commented upon by secondary sources. Jayen466 11:20, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

Church of Scientology vs Scientology

This article has hardly any information about Scientology but concentrates on information about the Church of Scientology, incorporations, controversies, legal fights etc etc. How about moving some of this over to Church of Scientology? Shutterbug (talk) 21:25, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

What information do you think it should have, which it doesn't already? The corporations, controversies, and legal fights are all very critical in understanding the history of Scientology, and the behaviors described herein are not isolated to the organization called "Church of Scientology". ←Spidern→ 22:40, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

There does not seem to be a difference between the Scientology and Church of Scientology article. But Scientology is (dependent who you ask) a religion, philosophy, mindset etc and not an organizational network. Imagine you know nothing about Scientology and start reading. After three pages you still have no information about Scientology but learned a lot about controversies related to the Church of Scientology. That's what I think we need to change. Shutterbug (talk) 22:49, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

I changed the sequence in this regard. Reads much more fluent now. Don't you agree? Shutterbug (talk) 22:56, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

Scientology is notable mainly for its controversies. I'm sorry, but that's simply the way it is right now. You hardly see any mentions of it in any mainstream news or religious scholarly work without extensive coverage of the controversies. Without them, this article would barely merit a stub; it's a very tiny belief system with about 50,000 practitioners in the United States, somewhat less even than the Bahá'í Faith, with 150,000 members. --GoodDamon 23:03, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

What makes this not your personal opinion but an objective fact? There are almost 400 articles on Wikipedia, one for each slightest facet of Scientology, its members, organizations etc etc. This article is about Scientology and not its controversies. It should supply an overview of what Scientology is and not how something thinks it is being perceived right now. What happened to WP:NPOV here? Shutterbug (talk) 23:30, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

Here's a simple test: Find a news article about Scientology. Not something about the recent shooting, or something about Tom Cruise, or anything like that, but about Scientology itself.

• Does it mention Xenu?
• Does it call Scientology "controversial" or any variant thereof?
• Does it mention the Church of Scientology's extensive history of litigation?
• Does it otherwise mention any of the things that are largely regarded as unusual or controversial about Scientology, such as the RPF, or Fair Game?

If the answer to all of these is no, then you've found a very rare article about Scientology. --GoodDamon 00:42, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

GoodDamon, I am sorry, I cannot follow your reasoning here. For one, your assertions do not seem to be borne out by the actual results of such a test as you describe. For example, Google News gives an initial count of 30,000 news articles that mention Scientology; of these, 393 mention Xenu, 2280 mention the word "controversial", 606 mention the word litigation. I agree that longer news articles in news sources have generally touched upon all of these points, as indeed have scholarly sources. But even to the extent that this is so, there is still a problem here. Look at US news reports on Islam. What do they focus on? How many of them mention adab, Gabriel, name the five pillars of Islam, and so on? If we followed this reasoning, our article on Islam should not mention any of these things, but should instead discuss 9/11, suicide bombers, women's rights, mullas and Islamic extremists. If you look at our article on Islam, which is an FA, you'll see that the information it presents on Islam is very different from that usually found in news sources.

I'll hazard a guess that this present article will never mature beyond its C rating as long as it ignores almost the entire and very copious scholarly literature on its subject. Here's another simple, and in my view more salient test: Find a scholarly book on Scientology. What do they write about? Have we got those points covered in proportion to their prominence?

Scientology has been an American religion for 15 years. In my opinion, it's time we treated it like one. Cheers, Jayen466 11:15, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

I agree with Jayen about the desirability of improving the article with academic sources, but find the Islam analogy unhelpful for this issue. Islam is not promoted almost entirely by one system of corporations. The scriptures of Islam do not mention flying airliners into tower blocks, nor strapping explosive to oneself. Scriptures of Scientology do mandate undermining democratic government by illegal means, frivolous lawsuits and smear campaigns against detractors, various punishments for disobedient members and so on. The Prophet did not get into trouble with the FDA, then declare his operation a spiritual/religious one for legal purposes. To present Scientology uncontroversially as a religion would be to ignore its history and even its present.MartinPoulter (talk) 13:16, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

I think you may lack familiarity with the discourse and polemics of avowed opponents of Islam. Islamic scripture comes in for exactly the same sort of criticism, but that is another matter. Of course we should cover the historical controversy around Scientology's status as a religion. But in terms of writing the article, the mainstream position today is that it is a religion, and we should write from that perspective. Jayen466 15:48, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

Jayen, I can't tell if you looked at any of those news stories from your first search, and your method was essentially attacking a straw man. Nearly every story in that search is about some controversial aspect of Scientology. Certainly, if you limit your search to the specific word "controversial", you'll vastly reduce the number of stories found. But that's a very incomplete measure of what I asked Shutterbug to find. Seriously, go into any of the stories on the front page of your search -- or heck, back page will do, too. You'll find almost every story to be largely about the controversies or about how weird the organization is. Look... If you have to dig and search and parse for stories that don't mention any of that, and you only have to search for the word "Scientology" to find stories that do, then you have a rough idea of the majority media view of Scientology.

I should also point out that your comparison with Islam is facetious. Islam has billions of adherents, has existed for hundreds of years, and has a wealth of written scholarly material about it. The two do not even begin to equate. --GoodDamon 16:28, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

It is not age or number of adherents that makes a religion. Both are recognized religions in the US and many other countries. Both have been vilified and stereotyped in the press. Of course Islam is a "bigger" religion, it is a world religion. But there is a significant body of scholarly literature for both. Would you agree with WP:RS that the scholarly view, where available, is usually the most reliable view, and should be given preference in constructing a WP article? Or do you feel that this article is an exception? Cheers, Jayen466 16:53, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

Age itself may not make a religion, but if it survives the test of time then it has a real chance to mature in terms of academic understanding, and general acceptance. Islam too was controversial when it was first introduced. However, when paired with the idea of corporations and lawsuits religion has a way of exemplifying corruption, hypocrisy, and deceit (this applies all across the board). Having its origins rooted in a time when such things as lawsuits and corporate structure can be easily be abused creates entirely new realms of possible action which we have seen utilized by Scientology. Not to mention the fact that they once declared that they were "not a psycho-therapy nor a religion.", until it became convenient to represent the latter. Yes, they have their set of beliefs which they are fully entitled to practice. But to gain significant acceptance as a religion anywhere the beliefs must survive the test of time, and the adherents must number significantly enough to represent their viewpoints as a religion. This is not a question of technical or legal recognition, but merely the way in which religious recognition becomes accepted by society as a whole. Would you argue that Flying Spaghetti Monsterism is a religion? What about the Church of the SubGenius? ←Spidern→ 17:24, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

Are you arguing that contemporary academic views are unreliable because Scientology is young? If so, I would disagree with you. As for what else you say above, this is one view, which I suppose is your own. As for the historical development of Scientology into a religion, that is something Wilson and others have commented about. See e.g. [7], [8], [9], etc. That too is a significant view that we should reflect. Cheers, Jayen466 17:51, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

As published by the Church of Scientology at neuereligion.de, hardly an academic source. AndroidCat (talk) 07:40, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

All I'm trying to say is that the significant viewpoints must be acknowledged. You've asserted that major scholars in the field have expressed this opinion, so we must give due weight to this. Provide sources, and we will cover the viewpoints with a weight proportional to their numbers. However, regardless of how strongly certain scholars feel about whether Scientology is a religion, also significant is the opinion that it is not. This is found in both academic and news sources. WP:NPOV defines an opinion as "a matter which is subject to dispute." Of the notion that the religious status of Scientology is disputed, it is most certain (hence the section). To sum up what we should be doing here, as quoted from WP:NPOV Assert facts, including facts about opinions—but do not assert the opinions themselves. We must not debate which opinion is definitively more "correct" or "true", instead we should simply summarize the conclusions drawn by each, giving a weight proportional to their prevalence. ←Spidern→ 18:10, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

You say, But to gain significant acceptance as a religion anywhere the beliefs must survive the test of time. This is simply not true, and I wonder what source you would base that on. The fact is, Scientology has gained significant acceptance as a religion in many first-world countries, including the US. And ever since Scientology was recognized as a religion by the IRS, the US State Department has been criticising, on an annual basis, other governments such as that of Germany who have not yet followed suit in its Religious Freedom Reports, for religious discrimination against Scientologists. This is, by any measure, significant acceptance. It has been significant enough to have caused diplomatic rows between the US and the European governments concerned. Even in Germany, come to think of it, most court decisions have, according to the Scientific Services Dept. of the German Parliament, acknowledged the religious nature of Scientology (see Scientology as a state-recognized religion). Jayen466 18:01, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

We have reliable sources detailing the controversy behind how the tax exemption agreement was made in the first place, stating that it was obtained through nefarious means. So tax exemption is a technicality, but means little for a theologian or religious scholar of substance. They will have focused on the actual doctrines of the religion, not a cited case of a government declaring its final opinion. Also, you may want to check out Kimball, Charles (2002) "When Religion Becomes Evil: Five Warning Signs", ISBN 0060506539, page 25 ←Spidern→ 18:23, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

(Arbitrarily un-indenting to a reasonable level). This is in response to Jayen466. Your links above to neuereligion.de do not inspire me with confidence in the scholarly nature of those works. That is a Scientology-fronted website, and not exactly the pinnacle of reliable sourcing. --GoodDamon 18:35, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

I can understand that. Research the author, Bryan R. Wilson. Times obituary. When you have done so, let me know if we need to go to RS/N or not. And as convenience links go, I prefer Scientology websites to Operation Clambake in this article. Cheers, Jayen466 19:03, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

Wilson's analysis is entirely based on theological grounds. I'd like it reflected in the article, as an alternative narrative to the "Scientology as a business cloaked as a religion" take.

Re IRS, do you have a source for "nefarious"? And btw, looking at that section, the sentence "However, it is important to note the circumstances under which the tax-exempt agreement was made; it was reported by the New York Times that multiple intimidation tactics were used in an attempt to influence the IRS into granting tax exemption. Tactics used included hiring private investigators to look into the private lives of IRS officials, as well as funding a whistle-blower organization to gather incriminating information against the IRS." cited to the NY Times article does not fully and accurately reflect that source.

First of all, "It is important to note" is OR. We need a source that says that. Secondly, "that multiple intimidation tactics were used in an attempt to influence the IRS into granting tax exemption" is not what the NY Times says. The word "intimidation" is part of a verbatim quote of an interviewed ex-Scientologist. Thirdly, the NY Times states, "While I.R.S. officials insisted that Scientology's tactics had not affected the decision, some officials acknowledged that ruling against the church would have prolonged a fight that had consumed extensive Government resources and exposed officials to personal lawsuits. At one time, the church and its members had more than 50 suits pending against the I.R.S. and its officials." We should stick more closely to that, and mention the official IRS statement that denies any undue influence. Lastly, the NY Times report is 10 years old. Nothing has changed, even though IRS personnel must have changed considerably since 1993. As mentioned above, and reported in the NY Times, the State Department, which was not involved in this dispute, also changed its policy at that time. I agree the controversy and the NY Times article should be mentioned, but they should be mentioned as a controversy, not the main presentation of fact.

Kimball's book looks interesting, but according to the amazon.com Look Inside function, it does not have a single mention of Scientology or Hubbard. If that is correct, then we can't use it as a source here; but perhaps you just meant it as a reading recommendation. Will take a look. Cheers, Jayen466 19:01, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

You make some good points. Regarding the "it is important to note", I will admit that I overlooked the fact that it was original research when I wrote it in the article. I will admit that "nefarious" is my interpretation (I didn't use it in the article). Having 50 lawsuits open consecutively as a means of forcing your opponent to submit to attrition is my idea of nefarious. However, that remains my opinion and we should stick to facts. I agree with your proposed edit, and think it probably illustrates the situation more adeptly. And yes, the book was a general reading recommendation. All of that being said, the point I'm trying to make in regards to academics is that a governmental decision ruling that an organization is religious doesn't always have a bearing on whether the nation's scholars believe that the set of beliefs constitutes as a religion. A judicial process does not nullify prior conclusions drawn about an organization which has questionable motives (see quotations below). Of course, its possible that what you say is true and that the generally held academic opinion is that Scientology is a religion. If so, please provide more than the two sources you gave below and I'll accept that your assertion is not original research. ←Spidern→ 19:15, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

(outdent) Thanks! I am glad we are now talking about sources. Melton (2000) e.g. said about the IRS decision,

Scientology's problems in Germany, disruptive as they are, have been more than balanced by the 1993 resolution of its lengthy battle with for recognition with the Internal Revenue Service in the United States. The end of conflict between the church and the US government, which acknowledged its status as a religion, is destined to have far-reaching influence. The decision follows the opinions of the overwhelming majority of religious scholars and sociologists who have studied the church, a number of whom have been willing to put their opinion in print.

— J. Gordon Melton, The Church of Scientology, 2000

• This is a Scientology page that hosts the opinions of some of these scholars.
• Here is Hexham, who also quotes Wallis as characterising it as a religion
• Derek H. Davis, very reputable in this field, is cited in our article, and is very clear in his opinion that Scientology is a religion.
• deChant, Jorgensen: "Scientology is a religion of significance to scholars"
• Chryssides, calling it a religion, and also rebutting the criticism that "Hubbard only called it a religion to get state benefits"

Such dissenting views as there are on this question acknowledge openly that they are opposed by other scholars:

• Kent says, "Although some social scientists insist that Scientology is a religion" ... Kent is one who takes a different view, but he represents a minority within the field; see below.
• Beit-Hallahmi, closer to Kent in stance, says: "Regarding Scientology, we have two competing claims before us. The first, espoused by most NRM scholars, as well as some legal and administrative decisions, asserts that Scientology is a religion, perhaps misunderstood and innovative, but a religion nevertheless, thus worthy of our scholarly attention. The second, found in most media reports, some government documents in various countries, and many legal and administrative decisions, states that Scientology is a business, often given to criminal acts, and sometimes masquerading as a religion."
• This will do for the mo, but we can all look for more scholarly opinions. Jayen466 20:26, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

I'd like to explore some more scholarly sources here. I will paste some quotations from a few books on the subject, for easy reference to anyone wishing to improve the article.←Spidern→ 14:44, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

“ Scientology is a deviant religious movement. Its deviance lay

initially in its rejection of the 'facilities...culturally provided for man's salvation .. In this respect it is not unique. Scientology shares characteristics with other forms of sectananism Christian Science, Jehovah's Witnesses, Soka Gakkai, etc., but among the many contemporary deviant forms of religion, Scientology appeared for a while to become something of a bete noir, an object of special attention in the mass media, the courts and national legislatures. Scientology was publicly portrayed as 'an evil cult', and a 'senous threat to the community'. Laws were passed prohibiting its pracrice in three states of Australia, and aliens were prohibited from entering Great Bntain to pursue its study. The pejorative and stigmatizing terms which were often employed to describe it, and the relative severity with which Scientology was treated on occasion, suggest that this movement might fruitfuIy be examined from the theoretical perspective of the sociology of deviance. The nature of the debate surrounding Scientology, and some of the rhetoric that appeared during its course, suggest that at times Scientology was viewed in a manner approaching moral panic. Stanley Cohen has defined moral panic as "a condition, episode, person or group of persons which emerges to become defined as a threat to societal values and interests; its nature is presented in a stylized and stereotypical fashion by the mass media.

”

• Wallis, Roy (1977). "The Road to Total Freedom: A Sociological Analysis of Scientology", Columbia University Press, ISBN 0231042000

---

“ Scientology, the vast psychotherapy cult founded by science fiction writer

L. Ron Hubbard, offers members an alleged state of high mental development known as clear... Outsiders may doubt that Scientology can actually create clears, as clear persons are called, but Clear News, a Scientology newspaper, reported that a total of 16,849 people had reached this marvelous state by 1979.
...
Perhaps Scientology's claims are true, and these legions really have attained a supernormal level of mental functionaing and emotional health. But there are good reasons for doubting the tesimonials of even 16,849 Scientologists. First, other techniques based on tested principles of behavioral science cannot produce a state like clear... Of course, alternative explanations exist for each of these four points, but they render plausible the view that the claims for clear are false and raise the querstion of how thousands of individuals could be seriously mistaken about their own abilities.

”

• Star, Rodney and Bainbridge, William Sims (1986) "The Future of Religion: Secularization, Revival and Cult Formation", University of California Press ISBN 0520057317, p. 266

---

“ Couched in pseudoscientific terms and rites, this dangerous cult claims to help mentally or emotionally disturbed persons, for sizable fees. Scientology has grown into a very profitable worldwide enterprise . . . and a serious threat to health. . . . Scientology is a cult which thrives on glowing promises that are heady stuff for the lonely, the weak, the confused, the ineffectual, and the mentally or emotionally ill.

...
Scientology, warned British Health Minister Kenneth Robinson, is "socially harmful . . . Its authoritarian principles and practices are a potential menace to the personality of those so deluded as to become followers."
...
Before it finally goes the way of all cults, Scientology may leave behind a legacy of tragedy unmatched in the annals of fads and fallacies in mental health.

”

• Smith, Ralph Lee (1968) "Today's Health, Dec. 1968", p. 34

---

“ Even if we assume complete honesty and sincerity on the part of its practitioners and promoters, Scientology must be viewed as a dangerous and menacing cult---psychologically, socially, physically, and spiritually. ”

• Hopkins, Joseph Martin "Scientology: Religion or Racket?" Christianity Today 7 November 1969: 6-9; 21 November 1969: 10-13.

---

“ Scientology defies easy definition. Poised on the boundaries of religion, psychology, science, and even magic in the opinion of some of its interpreters, it does not fit readily into any of these categories. In addition the movement has drawn exceedingly hostile criticism from its beginning years.

... The histories of new religions in most times and cultures give evidence of rhetoric polarized between the denunciations of critics and the fervent testimonials of members, but the phenomenon is unusually intense and persistent in the case of Scientology. For this reason, any attempt to interpret its place in American religion and culture needs to take this part of its identity into account and to offer interpretations. It is not enough to chronicle Scientology's history, worldview, and development.

”

• Miller, Timothy (1995) "America's Alternative Religions", State University of New York Press ISBN 0791423980, p. 385

---

“ Less cerebral and more gaudy has been the devotion of many Californians to the cult of Scientology. A kind of religion which has been defined as "the common people's science of life and betterment", it claims to be able to cure 70 per cent of man's ills and raise a person's IQ... ”

• Roske, Ralph Joseph (1968) "Everyman's Eden: A History of California", The Macmillan Company ASIN: B000JC1U80, p. 553

---

Archival of "dianetics" subsection of "beliefs and practices"

I am attempting to transform the "beliefs and practices" section into more of a summary-style intro of Scientology beliefs, saving the nitty-gritty stuff for the appropriate separate articles. In so doing, I have removed a large portion of the "dianetics" section which I am placing here in the case that somebody could salvage it for usage on dianetics or elsewhere. ←Spidern→ 09:12, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

Dianetics

The mind in Scientology is described as a "bank of mental image pictures" that give the spirit experience and knowledge. It is accepted by Scientologists that traumatic experiences (or engrams) inhibit success and happiness in life. Scientologists subdivide the mind into the analytical or conscious mind, which is and what is referred to as the reactive mind.

The spirit, represented with the Greek letter 'theta' (θ), is thought to exist exterior to and/or independent from a body. In 1952, Hubbard reported he was able to stand as a unit of life independently of the physical body.<ref name="TimeVenus"/> Hubbard called the phenomenon "exteriorization".

Scientology describes the physical body as "a carbon-oxygen machine" of which the spirit is the engineer. Illnesses and injuries to the body are said to be relieved through the use of "assists."

Silent birth

I realize that silent birth is notable enough to merit its own page on English Wikipedia, but this section was too bad to leave in. Nearly every statement was referenced to primary sources, starting with "Hubbard said", "Hubbard declared", etc. I also think undue weight might have been given, having this on the main Scientology page. If anyone wants to salvage this, we need a summary-style description in a paragraph to be put in the beliefs and practices main section. ←Spidern→ 07:14, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

Silent birth and infant care

Main article: Silent birth

Stemming from his belief that birth is a trauma that may induce engrams, Hubbard stated that the delivery room should be as silent as possible and that words should be avoided because any words used during birth might be reassociated by adults with their earlier traumatic birth experience.

Hubbard also wrote that the mother should use "as little anesthetic as possible." In the 1960s Hubbard gave certain dietary recommendations, writing that breastfeeding should be avoided if the mother is smoking, drinking or is lacking good nutrition herself. Hubbard described common replacement formulas as "mixed milk powder, glucose and water, total carbohydrate" and offered as an alternative to commercial products what he called the "Barley Formula" made from barley water, homogenized milk and corn syrup. Hubbard said that he "picked it up in Roman days," referring to the use of barley. Hubbard crafted the barley formula to, in his words, provide "a heavy percentage of protein" and called it "the nearest approach to human milk that can be assembled easily." Although the formula is still popular with many Scientologists, health practitioners advise that it is an inappropriate replacement due to the absence of important nutrients like Vitamin C, the lack of which causes scurvy.

Controversies

The majority of this article is about Scientology controversies while hardly any space is used on things like what Scientology does, what Scientologists do and why etc. This article seems to concentrate on controversy. There is a separate article for that already so we should work on making this a summary article of all facets of Scientology. It starts with the lead section which consists to 70% of "controversy", all related to the Church of Scientology, which - again - has its own article. Spidern removed dozens of sources and managed to shrink the article by a lot (without anyone saying "blip" I might add). This is good. Now let's add more reliable sources written by people who know what they are talking about and get rid of the fluff. Shutterbug (talk) 22:46, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

The reliable, third party sources focus on the controversy. Following WP:NPOV and WP:UNDUE, we need to follow the weight given to the topic in the reliable sources. If you would like to help find reliable, third party sources that discuss "what Scientology does, what Scientology do and why etc.", that would be quite beneficial. What is currently in the article, that you believe is "fluff"? DigitalC (talk) 22:54, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, but it's not WP:RS sources that focus on controversy but the editors of this article. Look at the thread above, Spidern and Su-Jada had started looking up sources that are not connected to the anti-Scientology crowd but written by people whose NPOV is unchallenged. We need more of those actually added in the article. "Fluff" for example is the section "History". It talks about individual court cases, some local law enforcement activities, all a good 30+ years old but makes no mention about the fact that in 1993 the Church of Scientology has been recognized by the IRS as charitable organization. I would say this is part of the "history", isn't it. Also no mention is made about where Scientology is located, which countries, since then. All material I would expect in a "History" section. But no, there is only "fluff" about a couple of bad Scientologists. That's WP:UNDUE weight. Shutterbug (talk) 23:06, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

Please assume good faith, rather than asserting that editors are purposefully focusing on controversy. The majority of mainstream sources I have seen do not have a positive POV towards the church, and I certainly haven't been looking for sources "connected to the anti-Scientology crowd". If the IRS position is to be mentioned, again that would have to be NPOV, which would mean incorporating statements from the other POV, which I'm sure exist. I don't think that where Scientology is located is relevant to history, nor is which countries it operates out of. Thats not undue weight, simply material not relevant to history, as they aren't historical events or facts. DigitalC (talk) 03:13, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

Shutterbug, I can understand your frustration; however being well versed in such things, you could easily remedy the situation by adding some of the aforementioned content yourself. Nobody is stopping you from doing this. If you believe the information you have to present is of value, then be bold and add it yourself (as long as its well-sourced). The phrase which comes to mind (which I myself often apply) is that "if you want it done right, you've gotta do it yourself." ←Spidern→ 22:53, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

The history of an organization is usually marked by a) its birth, b) its growth or decline and c) by any notable changes or events. Can we agree on that? Shutterbug (talk) 22:29, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

Edit dispute over paragraph in lead.

Here are the edits in question:

• (1)
• (2)
• (3)

I believe that it is a highly relevant to have this paragraph in the lead. Shutterbug disagrees. I do not understand his argument, as the content of the paragraph is not only limited to the organization called "Church of Scientology". I also do not agree that it is a "bulgy repetition of the controversy section". It is not a sin to repeat information which is relevant, particularly when presented in summary style in the lead of an article. ←Spidern→ 22:56, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

I have restored it to the previous version, and urge Shutterbug to abide by WP:BRD. --GoodDamon 23:05, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

Ok, here we are. As noted above this section presents undue weight for an article about Scientology and is a violation of WP:NPOV. The opinion of one article writer of Time magazine of 1991 is not representative for 54 years of Scientology worldwide. Then "One major litigation point is that of copyright infringement.". The source does not show that and I highly doubt this as verifiable. Further, it has no relevance in a WP:LEAD section. These two phrases have no backing in WP:NPOV, WP:UNDUE and WP:LEAD. Shutterbug (talk) 23:18, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

Do we really have to go through all this again? It's been months. Alright...

• This article is primarily about the Church of Scientology's copyright enforcement efforts. That sentence is a very good summary of the entire article.
• WP:NPOV does not mean the article must be balanced between positive and negative material. It means the article must be neutral in tone. Let me be blunt: The vast, overwhelming majority of reliable sources take a dim view of Scientology. That Wikipedia reflects that is not a violation of WP:NPOV. You need to accept that the article will reflect most of the written material available about Scientology, and that is normal. The alternative would be to try finding reliable sources that paint Pol Pot as a nice fellow, and the Dalai Lama as a jerk, to provide "balance."
• Per WP:LEAD: The lead should be able to stand alone as a concise overview of the article. It should establish context, explain why the subject is interesting or notable, and summarize the most important points—including any notable controversies that may exist.

I hope this helps. --GoodDamon 23:40, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

(e/c) Tend to agree broadly with Shutterbug. Picking out a string of press articles in this way is a kind of WP:OR. There are scholarly sources that address how Scientology has been received. Jayen466 23:42, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

• Just to address the question of tone, have a look at how Scientology is discussed in this work, authored by a leading U.S. scholar of religion (there are many pages discussing Scientology in this book, not just the first one that comes up when you click on the link; you can search within the book; a dedicated section on Scientology begins on page 196). This kind of tone is quite normal in scholarly works – although obviously, there is a broad spectrum of opinion, with some scholars like Kent more outspokenly critical – and it's a far cry from the tone adopted by an early nineties Time magazine article. Here are other relevant sources to peruse. Jayen466 23:50, 24 November 2008 (UTC)
  • The leading scholarly author on Scientology is Stephen Kent, who has published peer-reviewed articles on the topic. Of course, we would also have to define what we mean by scholarly. Would you consider Scientology:To Be Perfectly Clear to be a scholarly work?. Further, we are not bound to use scholarly works, and the tone of articles in the mainstream media (3rd party sources) should be used to determine the tone of the article DigitalC (talk) 00:11, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

Source for your statement about Kent? Shutterbug (talk) 00:23, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

That would be an original research statement, which is perfectly acceptable for talk page discussion, as I am not advocating using it in the article. DigitalC (talk) 00:34, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

(outdent)Stephen A. Kent is the leading and most outspoken scholarly critic of Scientology, representing one extreme of the spectrum of scholarly opinion with regard to Scientology. But the Encyclopedia Britannica, e.g., got Melton to write their article on Scientology, not Kent. Melton is comfortably at the other extreme of the spectrum. WP:RS tells us that Academic and peer-reviewed publications are usually the most reliable sources when available. On this topic, we have literally hundreds of academic and peer-reviewed publications available. I do not see support in WP:RS for the notion that mainstream media sources should set the tone of an article in the way that you argue. Cheers, Jayen466 00:26, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

• • • Btw, to answer your question, while it may be a bit dated, of course Stark & Bainbridge qualifies as a scholarly work. Jayen466 00:33, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

That wouldn't be in WP:RS, that would be in WP:NPOV, in which we should weight the tone of the article according to the reliable sources used. DigitalC (talk) 00:34, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

I don't see such support in WP:NPOV either. NPOV tells us to reflect published viewpoints in proportion to their prominence in WP:RS. In other words, we have to cover the viewpoints of, say, Wallis (also dated), Wilson, and Melton as well as those of Kent et al. Would you agree? Jayen466 00:40, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

I'm not familiar with Wallis or Wilson. Do you have links to their work? I would agree that if viewpoints are raised prominently in reliable sources, they should be reflected in the article. DigitalC (talk) 03:29, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

Wallis is ISBN 0231042000 – widely cited, it is now out of print, I believe. The text is webbed in a few places, including here. For Bryan R. Wilson see [10], webbed here and on Scientology's own sites. Also see [11] and [12]. Cheers, Jayen466 11:41, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

Source for latest notable scientology event

• Wagner, James (24-11-2008). "Swordsman slain at Scientology center was from out of state, L.A. investigators say". Los Angeles Times. Retrieved 25-11-2008. {{cite news}}: Check date values in: |accessdate= and |date= (help)

Not really relevant to the main Scientology article. See WP:NOTNEWS. --GoodDamon 23:06, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

Agree with GoodDamon ←Spidern→ 23:21, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

Agree too. Jayen466 23:52, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

Disagree. When combined with previous altercations that have occured at Scientology buildings, a subsection could be added to the article. The essay on NOTNEWS is not applicable, as I am not proposing an "[article] about items in the news", only that this source may be used to add relevant information. Perhaps you meant WP:NOT#NEWS, but even that is irrelevant, because it states "News coverage can be useful source material for encyclopedic topics, but not all events warrant an encyclopedia article of their own". Again, I am not advocating creating an article on this event, but that it may be "useful source material" for this article.

• See also The Oregonian] for coverage of an attack in Portland in 1996.
• I may be mistaken, but I believe there was another event in addition to these 2.

DigitalC (talk) 00:45, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

Event reporting is for newspapers, not for an encyclopedia, at least per WP:NOT ("Wikipedia considers the historical notability of persons and events.") and WP:NOTE ("Wikipedia is not a news source: it takes more than just a short burst of news reports about a single event or topic to constitute evidence of sufficient notability. The Wikimedia project Wikinews covers topics of present news coverage."). Shutterbug (talk) 02:48, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps you should review WP:N and WP:NOT, as your comment looks like wiki-lawyering. Notability is only relevant as to whether an article exists or does not exist. It has no relevance on whether something should or should not be included in an article. As such, "the historical notability" is irrelevant in this context. ("These notability guidelines only pertain to the encyclopedic suitability of topics for articles but do not directly limit the content of articles."). As for WP:NOT, the only potentially relevant part is "While including information on recent developments is sometimes appropriate, breaking news should not be emphasized or otherwise treated differently from other information.". I am not asking for the content to "be emphasized or otherwise treated differently from other information". So again, you may wish to review policy and guidelines, so as to not misinterpret policy to justify inappropriate actions. DigitalC (talk) 03:03, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

I guess we will not solve this. Care to ask for mediation? Shutterbug (talk) 03:28, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

There is no need for mediation unless you continue to misrepresent policy and guidelines, as you have continued to do since I suggested to review WP:NOT and WP:N (in a section below). I have listed the source here for potential inclusion in the article, and if someone feels bold enough to do so, then it will go in the article. Nothing you have posted above is relevant to the situation at hand, and I would appreciate it if you would strikethrough the misrepresentation of policy above. DigitalC (talk) 04:57, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

IMHO you are a classical example for the need of mediation. Care to at least quote the Wikipedia policy you are refering to? Shutterbug (talk) 23:54, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

I have quoted the policies being refered to in my comments above, and wikilinked them in my previous comment for your convenience. With regards to wikilawyering, misrepresenting policy, and disruptive editing, I would recommend the guideline WP:DE, and the related essays WP:WL and WP:TEND. DigitalC (talk) 03:56, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

The sword incident DIRECTLY relates to the kind of mental damage and instability the arguably results from being a member of the "church". I think it is extreamly relevant considering yet again scientology is refusing to comment on the behaviors of thier paritioners and what part they played in said behavior. Also I just want to say that I love that everybody here talks like I do in real life. There are other smart people out thier YAY smart people. Aaron Bongart (talk) —Preceding undated comment was added at 16:37, 25 November 2008 (UTC).

I think it's best to keep this news item out of the article while it's still news. In the future, people can see if it's still being written about, and if it has a lasting signficance. Time allows reporters to get their facts straight, and let's things be put in proper perspective. "When combined with previous altercations..." is for 3rd party reliable sources to do, and it's for us to follow them.--Rob (talk) 22:36, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

Cult awareness network in history

I have undid revision 253886670 by User:Shutterbug. The information is objective, well-sourced, and is very relevant to the article and section. ←Spidern→ 23:17, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

I agree, it is object, well-sourced and very relevant to the article. But not the "history" section. There is nothing historical about the bankruptcy of a deprogrammer group. They were critics and that is where this section belongs.Shutterbug (talk) 23:23, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

The characterization of the New CAN as a "promotional arm for the Church of Scientology" is contradicted by some more recent academic sources. See [13] (James R. Lewis, 2005), [14] (Anson Shupe, 2006). Jayen466 23:31, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

Controversy inside the controversy... I think this should be added. Shutterbug (talk) 23:39, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

Two of the three links referred to in that second source appear to be defunct. ←Spidern→ 16:17, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

The CAN is relevent to scientology even if only mentioned in the controversy section because scientology created a strategic and aggressive plan to bankrupt them AND to buy them in bankruptsy court so they could use them for thier own purposes. This is well documented by TIMEAaron Bongart (talk) —Preceding undated comment was added at 16:39, 25 November 2008 (UTC).

A plea for calm

This article and this talk page have been relatively calm for months now. All of a sudden, the same old arguments over the lead are popping up, and the article is starting to look like it's being battled over again. One major point of concern for me is that several editors are trying, all of a sudden, to remove reliably-sourced material outright. For example, in this edit, User:Su-Jada removed references to Time Magazine and Salon with the completely inaccurate edit summary "rm non-notable/opinion". I have very little good faith to grant for utterly inappropriate edits like that which smack of POV-pushing and conflicts of interest. This kind of behavior needs to stop immediately. So I ask that everyone take a step back, breathe for a moment, and talk first. Preferably before an incident report gets filed on any of this. Remember, it's bold, revert, discuss, not bold, revert, bold, revert, bold...ad infinitum... --GoodDamon 01:02, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

Let's talk and no personal attacks, please. The reason why these old issues keep coming up is that they never have been resolved. And in the last months no one was here challenging the reliability, verifiability and NPOV-compatibility of this article. So we got this piece which is almost wholly based on tabloid style sources or primary sources to push a certain POV, like DigitalC said: "third party sources focus on the controversy". That's exactly the problem. Third party sources get filtered to forward a majority editor's (not majority source's) POV. But that is not what WP:NPOV means. Shutterbug (talk) 02:33, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

The Thriving Cult of Greed and Power#Awards Tabloid? AndroidCat (talk) 03:34, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

First off, Shutterbug, stop. I didn't commit a personal attack, and I ask you to immediately retract the accusation. I described an edit accurately and explained the issues with it as an example of the sorts of problematic editing I'm seeing springing up. And you absolutely must stop trying to describe reliable sources from Salon to Time Magazine as "tabloid." I could formally take that to the reliable sources noticeboard, but I doubt you want that. The administrators will make it quite clear that those are reliable sources, and that will be that.

Secondly, the primary sources this article contains are Church of Scientology-owned websites. I'm assuming those aren't the ones you were talking about, so could you be more specific about the references you take issue with? --GoodDamon 03:48, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

I Second the motion to talk. Lets start with why you think that the Cult Awareness Network's bankruptcy is being given undue weight. The CAN being bankrupted by Scientology-related lawsuits is important information which, like it or not, is part of the the Church's history. It is well-sourced, and belongs in the history section. The dispute of "religion" status must be given more weight than the actual beliefs because the issues it deals with are covered by more media than the actual beliefs themselves, who are practiced by under 55,000 people (as of 2001). And why should a critical statement made by Time, a reputable news source quoted from an article which won awards, be removed from the lead? ←Spidern→ 03:59, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

GoodDamon--I applaud your plea for calm but I must admit I see a lack of this in your own posting here. Frankly, I would describe the 17-year old (1991) Time Magazine article as dated and more than a bit sensational (i.e. tabloid) myself (you've read it, right?) but whether you or I like it or not, certainly a quote from a legitimate scholar on the subject is something we want to encourage in the article. I also think Shutterbug has the right to express her views of sources, and defend her right to do so just as I would defend your rights here as well. Let's all of us focus on providing scholarly references to upgrade this article, rather than engaging in personal attacks.Su-Jada (talk) 04:08, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

A few things:

• The lack of calmness you see from me is the result of being accused of attacking you when I simply pointed out problems with one of your edits. I don't take very kindly to false accusations. After spending time editing at the Barack Obama article, I've got a much lower tolerance for them than I used to.
• The Time Magazine is dated for certain areas, yes. But for many others, including CoS history, it's perfectly usable. And it's an award-winning piece of journalism; seriously, if you bring it to the reliable sources noticeboard, it will absolutely be declared a prime example of reliability, and the contention that it is tabloid will be resoundingly rejected. But by all means, don't take my word for it. Take it to the noticeboard, and get independent analysis.
• I have nothing against incorporating scholarly quotes. Do you have any specific ones in mind? This would be a pleasant return to discussing content.
• Now you know I have little tolerance for accusations. You have now also accused me of engaging in personal attacks. Please retract it. --GoodDamon 05:34, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

Time Mag Spidern, you are mixing up WP:NOT, WP:RS and WP:NOTE. Time Magazine is a reliable source but not everything Time prints is notable. And the trivia quoted from Time in the lead section of the article is just not notable. Scientology is such a broad subject with thousands of sources, news papers, scholar papers etc, so what would warrant a quote from Time Magazine of 1991? It also does not represent the majority of the sources in any way. So per WP:NPOV and WP:NOTE it needs to MOVE DOWN in the article. Shutterbug (talk) 04:24, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

I have suggested above that you review WP:N. I will now ask that you stop misrepresenting WP:N, as it does not apply here. Again, quoting from WP:N (as I did above for you), "These notability guidelines only pertain to the encyclopedic suitability of topics for articles but do not directly limit the content of articles.". DigitalC (talk) 05:07, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

"One major litigation point is that of copyright infringement" This is not covered in the source and an "internet-POV" but not real life. Teh Church of Scientology has been litigating all kinds of things, from libel cases to civil action against blackmailers. A scan over legal databases on the net shows you that copyright is probably the tiniest fraction of all. Yes to say that would be WP:OR. That's why I said to remove this POV push. Shutterbug (talk) 04:28, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

"Civil action against blackmailers"? I'm not familiar with any of those, unless you are advancing an interesting OR/POV view for cases like Christofferson or the Woods to be included in that? (Surely not the Lisa McPherson estate?) AndroidCat (talk) 04:48, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

This is all super-old stuff. I checked Nexis for the last five years, all Federal and State Courts in the US only. 12 cases, zero copyright cases. Give me an email address and I send them to you. Can't be used though, WP:OR. Shutterbug (talk) 04:55, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

I can be reached via Wikipedia, but if you'd rather send direct, I'd love to analyze the headers on the email. AndroidCat (talk) 05:13, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

Send me a message via Wikipedia then. Shutterbug (talk) 23:36, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

Original research? Here's something to chew on. 36 secondary sources detailing the copyright efforts of Scientology. ←Spidern→ 05:41, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

I guss I am partially to blame for this, I was the catalyst for this noise. The last thing we should be doign is editing and removing stuff. Leave your anger and your rage aside, these things blind you and make you see things that are not there or not see things that are there. I once got somebody angry enough that they were unwilling to admit that the US was an electoral democrasy despite Me citeing .gov websites and even past presidents. So as silly and insane as it sounds stranger things have happend where emotions have blocked the truth and the light from us. Do NOT let this happen here. This article is far to important, far to vital to be sliced at like this. Your all very intelegent, some of you rival even myself in speechcraft and communicative ability but that dose not mean you too are not subject to the bias of emotion. When I have time later I will look over EVERYTHING and refresh my memmory of the different rules and protocals and then contribute my then educated oppinion on this.Aaron Bongart (talk) —Preceding undated comment was added at 16:45, 25 November 2008 (UTC).

Actually, the dispute described above had nothing to do with you. The issues came up when there were some misinterpretation (and badly justified invocation) of Wikipedia guidelines/policy, which sparked an editwar. That being said, the recent turn of events should NOT stop you from editing (see WP:BRD). Being bold is a necssary part of the healthy evolution of an online encyclopedia, or nothing would get done around here. ←Spidern→ 17:06, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

Cirt's edits

Cirt, with all due respect, you would not be the person call COI edits. As a reminder you might want to look at your own edit history and the one's of your earlier user names. Please contribute on the talk page instead of deleting WP:RS-conform sources. Shutterbug (talk) 03:45, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

Speaking of which: Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/COFS Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/COFS/Evidence AndroidCat (talk) 03:50, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

I am at least open about my viewpoints (and I contribute with information instead of accusations). That "evidence" is still a lie - as Cirt knows very well - and this ArbCom did not solve anything. I think we need a new one, this time including you, Cirt, GoodDamon and some of these new Anonymous-connected editors. Justanother seems to be "dead". Misou probably O.D.ed on beer. Did I forget anyone? Shutterbug (talk) 04:18, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

What's "anonymous-connected" mean? AndroidCat (talk) 04:50, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

The comment also confounds me. ←Spidern→ 05:01, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

Now it's all coming back. This ridiculous game with me asking you something and you giving a question back instead. Forget what I said. I am going to concentrate on the article. Shutterbug (talk) 04:59, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

• I think he means connected to Anonymous (group). How he would determine that, I'm not entirely sure, but it certainly doesn't sound like assuming good faith to me. DigitalC (talk) 05:03, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

I know how he would determine anonymouse editers, anybody that has ither first hand knowledge of the "camps" or forwardly chats about the contraverys in a depth far deeper then the articles do is most likly an anon. Think about it there is SOOOO much research and doc dropping going on now and who has the dirty secrets? Anonymouse , so if somebody comes in here and starts talking about something scandulous that most people havent heard of or only thaught to be rumor its probably an anon talking on a recently leaked document. At least thats my interpretation of it. Aaron Bongart (talk) —Preceding undated comment was added at 21:45, 25 November 2008 (UTC).

Maybe if it can be shown that many editors are all editing from the same router with an Anonymous-owned IP address on the fourth floor of Anonymous's HQ building in LA? AndroidCat (talk) 05:25, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

I'm astonished I even have to answer this. You know, I know, and everyone else here knows full well that the very idea of an ArbCom report on myself, Cirt, and AndroidCat is absurd. It would go nowhere, fast. Cirt is an administrator, and both AndroidCat and myself are editors in good standing, of multiple areas in Wikipedia. I don't see the need for any further discussion of that idea, and would rather you just retract it. --GoodDamon 05:13, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

Oh! Was I supposed to be included? I wasn't in the last one, nor was I within the scope of the arbitration's authority. (Except in the general probation over all Scientology articles.) Well... Good luck with that! AndroidCat (talk) 05:20, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

There's a word for this... WP:SNOW ←Spidern→ 05:29, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

WP:Arbitration is not "a report on someone", it is the last step in dispute resolution, which any editor of whatever standing can be involved in. But it's the last step of that process, not the first. Mediation might not be a bad idea the way you guys are going at the moment. Jayen466 12:08, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

Sadly, it usually amounts to "a report on someone." I don't see this one going any differently, if one gets created. --GoodDamon 16:32, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

You can't create one without first pursuing mediation. These are just content disputes; content disputes are potentially healthy, and being involved in one does not per se reflect badly on an editor. Jayen466 17:03, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

Wow, these reactions are not exactly impressive. Yes, thanks, I meant to roll up the arbitration again and to include all active editors in it. Didn't know that mediation can't be skipped. Bummer... I participated in two mediations and they went exactly nowhere (one time the opposition party stopped talking, the other time some agreement was reached and broken right after. A waste of time, especially for the mediator who has to read into the subject for hours first). Anyway, we are currently far from something to mediate about with all those accusations flying around. So let's concentrate on one part, how about this one? Shutterbug (talk) 23:38, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

First thoughts: The NYT IRS story should be dealt with in only one place, IMO. The NY Times story is already covered under "Dispute of religion status". I propose that in this section (History) we simply say the IRS recognized Scientology. I would also drop the CAN controversy from the History section – while it was a notable event, and could have its own subsection under controversies, it is not a key event in the history of Scientology per se. Further, I am not quite clear whether something like that should go into Church of Scientology rather than this article. Any thoughts on what the respective content of these two articles should be, and to what extent it's desirable for them to overlap/have separate functions? Jayen466 02:25, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

This article, as the parent of a bunch of sub-articles, should be a summary of all things Scientology-related in Wikipedia. There should be a summary of Scientology beliefs and practices, a summary of the notable criminal cases, a summary of the various and sundry controversies, a summary of the hierarchy and organizational structure, a summary of the hidden creation myth, and miscellaneous summaries of Scientology's origins, its creator, and notable events in its history. --GoodDamon 04:32, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

This is a very good point. DigitalC (talk) 05:38, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, I think you have put that brilliantly, and I agree. I think this is something we can work with. Jayen466 11:44, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

Although "Church of Scientology" refers to a specific legal organization, officials of Scientology as well as members of the public tend to use it interchangeably with the term "Scientology". For that reason alone, it becomes a bit tricky figuring out what goes where. As for the CAN story, it was not the organization called "Church of Scientology" which initiated the lawsuits but rather Scientologists in federal and state courts. This classifies the event under "Scientology", and not the specific organization "Church of Scientology", as there is no evidence that the lawsuits were coordinated by the Church of Scientology itself. As for the placement, I haven't quite decided yet. It is both notable and well-sourced, but I'm not sure if the main history section is necessarily the best place for it. I'll have to think about that a bit more. ←Spidern→ 04:55, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

Shutterbug, will you please explain precisely what your issue is with the history section in its current form? ←Spidern→ 04:25, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

Net wars

A lot of the most bitter fighting and bitching around Scientology happens on the net. As Wikipedians, we are all likely to use net sources more than most people. Therefore, for an outside perspective:

• This is a page of a book by Eugene V. Gallagher, who's a board member of the American Academy of Religion. It provides an overview of the literature on Scientology, including a humorous critique of Melton's book, and it also puts the Internet controversy around Scientology into some kind of perspective. Please take the time to have a look at this. (And note that this esteemed and widely respected scholar has no compunction about giving convenience links to neuereligion.de in his book.)
• From the same book: an overview of the netwars, written from the viewpoint of a scholar standing outside the feud

Hope we can make use of this. Cheers, Jayen466 20:32, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

Wikiscanner revelations

• New online tool traces Wikipedia edits: PCs in Scientology officialdom removed criticism in church's entry, MSNBC, Associated Press, Brian Bergstein, August 15, 2007
• Wal-Mart, CIA, ExxonMobil Changed Wikipedia Entries, August 16, 2007, Fox News, Rhys Blakely, Fox News Network, LLC.
• Brown, Janelle (1998-07-15). "A Web of their own". Salon. Salon.com. Retrieved 2006-06-21.
• Scientology v. the Internet: Free Speech & Copyright Infringement on the Information Super-Highway, Skeptic vol. 3, no. 3, 1995, pp. 35-41, Jim Lippard and Jeff Jacobsen.
• Bjorhus, Jennifer (1995-08-26). "Scientology Critics Claim Harassment For Using Internet". Seattle Times. Retrieved 2008-10-14.
• Ingram, Matthew (January 18, 2008). "Scientology vs. the Internet, part XVII". Globe and Mail: Ingram 2.0. CTVglobemedia Publishing Inc. Retrieved 2008-01-19. {{cite news}}: Check date values in: |date= (help); Cite has empty unknown parameter: |coauthors= (help)
• Taylor, Dennis (June 4, 1999). "Church of Scientology vs. Amazon.com: Tax-exempt cult shouldn't be allowed to copyright doctrine". Silicon Valley / San Jose Business Journal. American City Business Journals, Inc. Retrieved 2008-11-25.
• EFF "Legal Cases - Church of Scientology" Archive, Electronic Frontier Foundation

Hope we can make use of some of this info as well. Cheers, Cirt (talk) 20:47, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

• Let's make sure to get scholarly opinions reflected that comment on all of these various controversies. Where they are available, we should not bypass them to write our own conclusions and set our own priorities; we should take our cues from the secondary literature where it is available. Jayen466 20:54, 25 November 2008 (UTC)
  • "Wikipedia and the art of censorship" -- Computers with IP addresses traced to the Church of Scientology were used to expunge critical paragraphs about the cult's world-wide operations. - The Independent. This type of troubling behavior from this organization should be taken into account when discussing these issues. Cirt (talk) 20:58, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

Not to forget the reliable source "Associated Press" of 24 November 2008[15] stating: "The Church of Scientology was established in 1945". Obviously true, AP reported it and they are they know what they are talking about when it comes to religions. Let's change it right away. /irony. Cirt, this thread is about increasing the quality of the sources used. I can't see how to achieve that with day-to-day news sources. Some journalists's opinion or a quote of a axe-to-grind ex-scientologist in a newspaper is the lower end of WP:RS standards. Shutterbug (talk) 22:52, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

Comment: FWIW, as reported on in multiple news sources, the info as identified by Wikiscanner tracks back to 205.227.165.244. Here is an edit made by that IP. Other editors can draw their own conclusions. Cirt (talk) 23:08, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

205.227.165.244, was the IP for a "Symantec Web Filter Proxy" owned by the Church of Scientology, several years ago, and used by hundreds if not thousands of Scientology members, in Church-owned hotels/pensions etc.. It was a moral safety measure and gave off warnings when porn sites etc were about to be accessed. I have not heard of it for about a year and I doubt it still exists. It was pretty slow. Having said that, what is missing in this presentation is that all substantial IP edits have stopped several years ago and did take place at a time when Wikipedia did not have the NPOV/COI rule yet.Shutterbug (talk) 23:26, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

Claims such as these given by the Church of Scientology do not appear to be backed up by any hard evidence, unfortunately. Cirt (talk) 01:36, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

Repeatedly referring to Shutterbug as the Church of Scientology is argumentative and serves no useful purpose. The Arbcom never established that she was an official voice of the Church or that any of the editors that shared an IP proxy were acting improperly. All that was established by the Arbcom was that there was sufficient ambiguity among that specific group of users that they were to be considered as one editor for any purpose involving consensus-building. It is entirely appropriate for Shutterbug to edit articles here provided she, like all of us, work within the policies. Calling her "the Church of Scientology" would be no more appropriate, Cirt, that if I consistently referred to you as "hero of Anonymous". Which I will not. So please stop that; it is unbecoming of the project and of you personally and please accord her the respect any good-faith editor is entitled to here. As I will accord that respect to editors that clearly edit from their own overpowering point-of-view yet endeavor to remain within the policies and frameworks of this project. --Justallofthem (talk) 02:18, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

The facts as shown by Wikiscanner and 205.227.165.244 speak for themselves. Cirt (talk) 03:12, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

I was not previously aware of this, and frankly it's troubling. As Shutterbug previously edited under an acronym for the Church of Scientology, I find myself suddenly concerned about conflict-of-interest issues. There are already obvious single-purpose account issues. I'm going to back out of this article for a little while to review editing histories, but I'm inclined to file an incident report of some kind. Frankly, it is improper to be editing these articles in any sort of official Church capacity. --GoodDamon 04:44, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

Being a relative newcomer to Wikipedia, I am not as familiar with the processes here as some of you are. But I was just looking up Requests for comment, and considered that it may be appropriate to get an outsider's opinion in this matter. Do any of you think this would be helpful? ←Spidern→ 05:03, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

ARIN's record for that net block. [16] The story of "used by hundreds if not thousands of Scientology members, in Church-owned hotels/pensions etc.." is exceedingly implausible. Many sites publish their access logs (including IP address) where Google can find them, so 205.227.165.244 should turn up in large numbers of Google results if that were true. It doesn't. Instead, it's a small number of Wikipedia-connected results. Please leave these fairy tales for people who don't understand the Internet. AndroidCat (talk) 06:14, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

And positing that the CofS would make their access logs public knowledge is no more than another fairy tale that you seem to be promoting, AC. The fact that a number of Scientology organizations and facilities worldwide used a common proxy should certainly be understandable to someone as net-savvy as you, AC. This is old news, review the Arbcom. Shutterbug is considered to have some undefined connection to the Church by virtue of her prior use of a Church-owned server and is one of a group of users that need to be careful to not appear to act in concert. That is it. Other than that she is not barred from editing and should be accorded the respect any editor here deserves, including not playing games with her handle. --Justallofthem (talk) 12:35, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

Not the CoS logs, the logs of all the sites that these mythical thousands of people were accessing on the Internet. AndroidCat (talk) 12:54, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

Ah, well, I never tried to present myself as more net-savvy than you :) However, I doubt that most organizations publish their logs, why would anyone with the least bit of interest in privacy issues do that? I don't buy it as proving your point. In any event, my point stands as to the outcome of the arbcom and the restrictions, such as they are, that Shutterbug may be subject to. Other than that, she is due the respect any of us deserve and is as entitled to her POV as any of us and to not have someone that should know better play games with her username. That caught my eye. Other than that, carry on! --Justallofthem (talk) 14:31, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

Justallofthem, what AndroidCat was referring to was third party websites who usually inadvertently get their web stats indexed by search engines. When googling the aforementioned IP, one finds mention in only three such logs (1, 2, and 3). So the line of reasoning AndroidCat was following is that if there were in fact, hundreds of users on this web proxy, there would be more results showing up on stats pages. For example, take a look at this DOW Chemical Company IP and see the results on web statistics pages. It's not always that way, it's just a common tendency. ←Spidern→ 15:34, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

Let's look at another random WP article. Here are the WikiScanner results for Israel. The top IP is "Cogeco Cable Solutions (St. Catharines, Ontario)" - 24.150.168.211. If you enter that in google, you get this – zilch. Yet Cogeco is a reasonably big Canadian Internet service provider, certainly used by "hundreds of users". The next IP on the Wikiscanner list for that article is 212.179.96.55. Again, nothing in google. The next IP has one hit. What is this fuss about? It's been common knowledge since the arbcom last year that Shutterbug and others had edited via a CoS-owned Internet connection. The arbcom remedies didn't say there was anything wrong with that. So why is it even being brought up now? Jayen466 12:20, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

You are incorrectly interpreting the argument. The premise is that for corporations that use a static-ip web proxy (see wikiscanner for some examples) for hundreds (or more) of users, one tends to find a pattern of google results on web statistics pages. You didn't choose a corporation, or someone who purports to grant web access to hundreds of people from a single IP. Instead you chose one cable subscriber out of potentially thousands of residential subscribers. The size of an ISP has no bearing in GoodDamon's argument (it actually weakens yours, considering that there are more dynamic IPs to choose from and less chance statistically over dynamic re-assignment which will lead to it showing in a webstat page). ←Spidern→ 14:06, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

Well, bear with me. I was under the impression that an ISP IP address such as the Cogeco address mentioned above would also be shared by a number of users. No? According to Wikiscanner, the IP range of the LA Church of Scientology International is 205.227.165.0-255. That is, 256 IP addresses. If you just enter the first three segments of that address range – i.e. 205.227.165 – in google, you still get all of 7 results. You have been saying, if other people had used the same IP address as Shutterbug, the address should be showing up in stats all over the place. What this google result shows, however, is that even if you widen the search to the entire IP address space of the LA CoS, you still don't get anything substantial showing in google. See what I mean? Surely all the other Scientologists besides Shutterbug are using their computers and those 256 IP addresses for something in LA, yet nothing shows. You can try the same thing with any individual IP address within the CoS range – i.e. [17], [18], [19], [20], [21], etc. Jayen466 17:14, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

(arbitrary outdent) For the record, I'm not assuming bad faith at all, I'm simply explaining how your interpretation of the argument is flawed.

1. Yes, cogentco addresses and other such ISPs have dynamic IP reassignment, which recycles old IP addresses. Genereally, however, larger ISPs have larger ranges. Thus, a higher ratio of available IPs to subscribers, lessening the possibility that individual IPs were logged under multiple web service logs.
2. The ip range you specified doesn't mean that all 254 (205.227.165.0 and 205.227.165.255 are reserved) ip addresses are in use. It's simply a placeholder.
3. A google search for any class c range (x.x.x) will exclude individual results for class d ranges in most cases (x.x.x.x). (note that when searching for 205.227.165.244, more results show than 205.227.165) This is an issue of google syntax, as google treats sequences of numbers in the same way as words, no wildcards implicit.
4. The fact that more results do not show up is precisely why Shutterbug's suggestion of "hundreds if not thousands" of users fails.
5. You arbitrarily assume that all Scientologists in the LA area use the IP range which is the assigned to Scientology-owned servers at their own properties--but the properties of individual Scientologists contributing on their own time are not necessarily behind this range. They are more likely to have cable or DSL connections. Even if they were using the internet from behind this range, if what Shutterbug said is correct they'd only be under one IP, which is their web proxy.

So to summarize what the above evidence suggests, it appears that only a limited number of individuals directly involved with the Church of Scientology (behind the proxy of ws.churchofscientology.org) are making edits under that IP address. Not "hundreds" or even on that order of magnitude. ←Spidern→ 17:56, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

(1) ok. (2) ok. Some clearly are in use though, and where they show up, they typically show up with one google hit. I checked about a quarter of them. :-) (3) I noticed that; this is why I gave individual search results for class d ranges as well. (4) I still doubt that this follows. I am currently on an AOL IP. According to our page on those, each AOL IP is "shared with hundreds or thousands of other AOL users". Still, if I enter my own current IP in google, I get zero search hits. Yet hundreds or thousands of users will have used this IP before me, and will have been online with it. Here is an example of an AOL IP, from one of the ranges given on the linked AOL page, that has all of 3 google hits. Here is another one with 5 google hits. These too are addresses that have been used by hundreds of Internet users. (5) No, I did not assume that. But the LA CoS building is substantial, and I assume that there is a large number of people using its IT facilities on a daily basis. Yet I am unable to find evidence of large numbers of stat records for any of the other IP addresses. (We can take this to your or my talk page if you want to discuss this further.) Cheers, Jayen466 18:27, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

---

For newer editors' convenience, the previous arbitration case is here. As for myself, I welcome Shutterbug's presence here, as long as she edits in good faith, brings reliable sources and works towards consensus on the talk page (rather than edit-warring, which does not help anyone).

It is not surprising to get the odd Scientologist editing here from a Scientology building. As in the case of the other 20 organisations that the Independent article reports as having edited WP articles related to them from official IP addresses – these included the CIA, FBI, the Republican Party, the Labour Party and the Israeli government as well as the Church of Scientology – I do not believe that this is some kind of official drive by the Church of Scientology to attack Wikipedia. As in these other cases, I think it more likely that these are simply individuals who want to make an article better, in this case a C-Class article that clearly still can do with improvement.

The official stance of the Church of Scientology, last time I looked, was that Wikipedia was written by teenaged geeks and beyond redemption. I'd like to prove them wrong. Cheers, Jayen466 11:35, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

Here is some additional interesting info. Cirt (talk) 13:03, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

I don't get it. There are 122 edits there, made over a three or four-year period, spanning 15 wiki projects. What do these 122 edits indicate to you? Jayen466 13:21, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

WP:SPA. Or in this case, SP-org. Cirt (talk) 13:25, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

Time magazine

We should not rely on the Time magazine article to the exclusion of other views, or present it as though it were a representative view. For example, Gallagher says,

"Melton notes the economic dimension of the Scientology controversies, ibid. [The Church of Scientology], 59–60. A more popular, and more negative, treatment can be found in the Time Magazine cover story, Richard Behar, "Scientology: The Thriving Cult of Greed and Power", May 6 1991, ...

NPOV requires that we present Melton's viewpoint as well. Gallagher's characterisation of the Time Magazine article as "more popular, and more negative" may also be worth including. There have been other comments on the piece:

• Here is a New York University Press publication saying, "The Time article was way over the top. Even Saddam Hussein was portrayed less badly."

• Here is another work (SUNY Press) characterising the Time article, and Scientology's rejoinder to it, as part of an unhelpful pattern of "attack and counterattack". Note that the scholar references both the Time article and Scientology's rejoinder, whereas we do not even mention that there was a rejoinder!

At any rate, our editorial tone should not take its cues from what reliable sources have described as an over-the-top attack piece. If we mention and draw on it, then this mention also has to include references to how the piece has been received. Jayen466 12:15, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

Also note [[22]]. The controversy section badly needs a subsection reflecting existing RS analyses of the wide-spread hostility towards Scientology and the reasons for it, which in the view of many RS, including the one cited here, are not simply normal and reasonable responses to Scientology's actions. Wallis (cited above) e.g. likened it to a moral panic. Would editors object to having a properly sourced paragraph on this? Jayen466 13:08, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

As long as the viewpoint described is well-sourced and relevant to the topic, I can not object. We have to represent all significant viewpoints. The hostility reflected is generally common among news sources, which the article has an abundance of. If, however, you've been able to find an opposing viewpoint which is coming from multiple reliable sources then by all means add it. That being said, the Time article did win multiple journalistic awards, and the source is no less reliable than it ever was. ←Spidern→ 13:49, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

Scientology Creed

Note that the Army Manual just linked above in the Ceremonies section also states the Scientology creed, whose existence we have failed to cover either in this article or the Beliefs and Practices article (at least I couldn't find any reference to it). I think it is a basic fact that needs to be included. Where do editors think it should go? Jayen466 12:47, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

It falls directly under the category of "Beliefs", therefore I see no reason not to include mention of it. The only condition is that we keep it down to a sentence or two, and keep it within the main section of beliefs and practices (I dislike creating excessive sections, especially for summary articles).←Spidern→ 13:31, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

I thought the same; a brief mention here, and perhaps the complete thing in Beliefs and Practices. Any other views? Jayen466 15:34, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

That would be a suitable use for it. Summarize it in the beliefs section of this article, expand on it in the dedicated article. Welcome to summary style editing. :) --GoodDamon 15:46, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

By "the whole thing" you don't mean the actual creed, do you? That would be a copyvio, not to mention original research having come from a primary source. If you mean just a well-sourced expanded mention of it in the beliefs and practices page then yes, we are in agreement. ←Spidern→ 15:47, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

I did the mean the whole creed. We regularly reproduce this sort of thing for other religions, and the whole creed is quoted in multiple secondary sources, for example, here in An Educator's Classroom Guide to America's Religious Beliefs and Practices, published by Libraries Unlimited. This being so, would you still object? Jayen466 17:59, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

Yes, for reasons of WP:copyvio, WP:undue, WP:NOTADVERTISING. How many bible verses are quoted verbatim in an encyclopedia? I was just explaining to Aaron above that using primary sources because they are quoted by secondary ones is not justified. Stick to summarizing secondary sources, rather than directly quoting primary ones. ←Spidern→ 18:27, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

1. Spidern, it is clearly not advertising – or are you suggesting that the Army Manual and the LU classroom instruction guide are also "advertising" Scientology? I am really puzzled by this comment.
2. It is clearly not a copyvio, since the creed is reproduced in multiple secondary sources.
3. And if multiple secondary sources quote a primary source, it is legitimate for us to quote it, too – these are the precise circumstances that make quoting a primary source legitimate: when multiple secondary sources have quoted it.

As for comparisons to other faiths, we do state the Islamic pillars of faith in the article on Islam, and we do give the wording of various Christian creeds in full. In Christianity e.g. we refer the reader to wikisource; that's also an option we might have here. Let me assure you that I am not interested in "advertising" Scientology. All I am saying is it's a recognized religion, and we should cover it just like we cover any other, giving an outline of its most basic articles of faith etc. Do any other editors have views on this? Jayen466 01:17, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

I've included a section in the Beliefs and Practices article, based primarily on World Religions in America, p. 223, citing the above two sources as supplementary refs. It's not the full text, but a summary, as you suggested; on reflection, that does seem to make sense here. Cheers, Jayen466 02:25, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

Let's resolve the conflict.

When the article is locked, it gives us a chance to smell the roses for a while. Even so, we're going to eventually need to figure out how to resolve the conflict which lead to the editwar in the first place so we can continue to improve upon the article. So let's discuss what outstanding issues there are, and try to come to some sort of resolution or comprise. I'm requesting that all parties involved [Myself, Jayen466, Shutterbug, GoodDamon, Su-Jada, Cirt](named in chronological order of edits during editwar) who disagree with the currently locked version of the article come forward and explain precisely what they feel is not being adequately accomplished by the article. Creating a section here to accuse another editor of COI editing is out of line and unnecessary. Instead, let's focus on the content of the article, not the perceived agenda of other editors. ←Spidern→ 14:24, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

Instead, let's focus on the content of the article, not the perceived agenda of other editors. Hear Hear --Justallofthem (talk) 14:35, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

As I've said before, there is a whole genre of significant published views (mostly academic views) that are inadequately represented, or not represented at all. I have posted links to some of these above, and I'll repeat them here for convenience:

Scholarly treatments

• deChant/Jorgensen (in Neusner, Jacob (2003). World Religions In America. Westminster John Knox Press. ISBN 9780664224752.)]
• Wilson 1
• Wilson 2
• Melton: The Church of Scientology (2000, Signature Books) (I have a copy of that book and can contribute more material from it)
• Chryssides
• Gallagher
• Wallis
• Black
• Bromley & Cowan
• Lewis (ed.) (upcoming, Feb. 2009; this will be a major publication in this field)
• Corrigan, John (2008). The Oxford Handbook of Religion and Emotion. Oxford University Press US. ISBN 9780195170214. - A brief overview of Hubbard's tone scale.
• Lewis, James R. (1997). "Clearing the Planet: Utopian Idealism and the Church of Scientology". SYZYGY Journal of Alternative Religion and Culture Volume : numbers 1-2 Winter-Fall 1997. Mandeville Press. ISBN 0-914829-42-4. - a brief description of the history of Scientology and Dianetics and some of its core beliefs, and biographical data on L. Ron Hubbard.
• Introvigne, Massimo (2002). "Religious Minorities and Anti-Cult Activity in Italy in Comparative Perspective". International Perspectives on Freedom and Equality of Religious Belief. J. M. Dawson Institute of Church-State Studies, Baylor University. ISBN 929182-66-9. {{cite book}}: Check |isbn= value: length (help) - a good reference for the religious nature of Scientology and why it was given religious recognition in Italy.
• Jennifer, Robinson (2002). "Scientology (Church of Scientology)". The Encyclopedia of Cults, Sects, and New Religions. Prometheus Books. ISBN 1-57392-888-7. - Description of Dianetics, Scientology training as a religious practice, as well as some historical information.

US Army source (another source demonstrating recognition as a religion, and how it is described in government publications)

• [23]

Support materials for classroom education

• An Educator's Classroom Guide to America's Religious Beliefs and Practices – published by Libraries Unlimited as a reference work for school libraries and classroom teachers

I would really appreciate all editors' – and especially Scientologist editors' – help in researching these and similar sources to get this article into a more mainstream and balanced shape. We have plenty of capable and prolific editors who have done a very good job of researching anti-Scientology and media sources, so I do not think there is much more effort required on that front. Jayen466 15:58, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

I have the Melton book too! What about Black[24]? Bravehartbear (talk) 16:32, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

Have added Black to the list above. Jayen466 18:24, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

Per WP: Lead this is what we need to do in the lead

Introductory text

• Provide an accessible overview
  • "The lead section should briefly summarize the most important points covered in an article in such a way that it can stand on its own as a concise version of the article."

This lead does not follow the most important points covered in the article but it is selective on what points it wants to push.

• • "In general, specialized terminology should be avoided in an introduction. Where uncommon terms are essential to describing the subject, they should be placed in context, briefly defined, and linked."

If you want to use technical Scientology terms like Thetan the term should be complete explain or not used at all.

• • "The subject should be placed in a context with which many readers could be expected to be familiar."

This lead really weird and not familiar at all.

• Relative emphasis
  • "In general, the relative emphasis given to material in the lead should reflect its relative importance to the subject according to reliable sources."

It think the lead is selective on the points it wants to push and doesn't give equal access to many othher points.

• • "Avoid lengthy paragraphs and over-specific descriptions, especially if they are not central to the article as a whole."

Definetly it needs a clean up on this.

• Opening paragraph
  • "The first paragraph of the introductory text needs to unambiguously define the topic for the reader."

This lead is not unambiguously at all.

• Length
  • "The appropriate length of the lead section depends on the total length of the article. As a general guideline, the lead should be no longer than four paragraphs."

Comment by Bravehartbear (talk)

Thanks for your feedback Bravehartbear. I will address each of your points in order.

This lead does not follow the most important points covered in the article but it is selective on what points it wants to push...
It think the lead is selective on the points it wants to push and doesn't give equal access to many othher [sic] points.

What important (and sourced) points does it not cover?

If you want to use technical Scientology terms like Thetan the term should be complete explain or not used at all.

The thetan article gives the definition: "the concept of thetan (pronounced THAY-tan, /'θeɪtən/) is similar to the concept of spirit or soul found in other belief systems.", which is adequately summarized in the definition given. As it is defined sufficiently in this context, the usage is appropriate.

This lead really weird and not familiar at all...
This lead is not unambiguously [sic] at all.

What is weird about it? Can you please get very specific here so we can directly address your concerns.

Definetly it needs a clean up on this. [referring to avoiding lengthy paras]

I've copyedited this lead many times, and tried to trim it down as much as possible. I'd be interested in knowing what you think needs to be trimmed. I'm a firm believer in saying what needs to be said with as few words possible. Note also that there are only four paragraphs. ←Spidern→ 16:57, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

One thing I do when looking at paragraphs is try to assign one word or idea to them to see if the paragraph is too long or if others need to be merged. Right now, the way I look at the lead paragraphs is:

1. Intro
2. Spiritual Beliefs
3. Organizations & Criticism
4. Scientology's official viewpoint & promotional campaigns

Do you have any suggestions on how to improve upon the existing structure? ←Spidern→ 17:06, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

The lead Debunked

• Paragraph one is about L Ron Hubbard the founder of Scientology and the creation of Scientology. Then suddenly it says:

“A commonly held belief among Scientologists is that psychiatry and psychology are destructive and abusive fields, which must be abolished.”

What exactly this line has to do with the first paragraph? The Scientology and psychiatry section is part of the Scientology controversy and should be placed in controversy paragraph in the lead if at all.

• Scientology advocates that people are immortal spiritual beings (or thetans) which have lived many lifetimes.

All religions see man as a spiritual being. And how can an immortal spiritual being have lived many lifetimes when he can’t die? This is confusing. About the word Thetan The wikilink is not enough, WP: Lead states "In general, specialized terminology should be avoided in an introduction. Where uncommon terms are essential to describing the subject, they should be placed in context, briefly defined, and linked." I see the link but nothing else, define it or remove it.

• Scientologists believe that the primary purpose of existence is survival.

Amazing at last one Scientology concept from dozens of different concepts, and what happened with the scientology principles that were in the article? A Scientology article with no Scientology principles is ridiculous!

• One controversial aspect of Scientology beliefs is the idea that thetans lived among extraterrestrial cultures before becoming trapped in bodies on Earth.[9] It is believed that thetans were brainwashed by these extraterrestrial cultures as a means of population control. The belief of extraterrestrial origins is not taught to new members, but is only presented after members have advanced through the ranks of Scientology.

A whole paragraph devoted for the Scientology higher level and one little line about a Scientology principle. Are you kidding me? This is way unbalanced.

• There are a large number of organizations overseeing the application of Scientology, many of which are separate legal entities.

All scientology organizations are separate legal entities. Who cares? This is too much info for intro, it should be in the body.

• These organizations have remained highly controversial since their inception.

This sentence is a generality and POV pushing, there have not been great controversy surrounding the way to happiness foundation or youth for human rights.

• Most notable of these organizations is the Church of Scientology, whose primary concern is to uphold the belief system of Scientology.

Where is the line that divides the church of Scientology with associated organizations that promotes different aspects of Scientology. Mangling everything together is confusing.

• "Time Magazine describes Scientology as "a hugely profitable global racket that survives by intimidating members and critics in a Mafia-like manner."

This is already in the lead part of "Former members, journalists, courts, and authorities in multiple countries have described Scientology as a cult and an unscrupulous commercial enterprise." There is no need for a quote from a specific magazine when the point has already being stated. This is a double kill not needed. The lead should be ambiguos and not state a specific quote from a specific magazine.

The lead should be divided like this:

1. Scientology origin and brief history
2. The church of Scientology and associated organizations.
3. Beliefs and practices
4. Controversy

Humbly Bravehartbear (talk) 17:22, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

"there have not been great controversy surrounding the way to happiness foundation or youth for human rights" *rolls eyes*

• Bush, Rudolph (2007-10-12). "Bogus Scientology pamphlets irk Leppert". Dallas Morning News. Retrieved 2008-11-16. {{cite web}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)
• "Booklet sent to Winnipeg Mayor's office insinuates politician endorses Scientology". National Post. 2007-10-31. Retrieved 2008-11-16. {{cite web}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)
• Epstein Elias, Bat-Hen (2007-08-14). "Brainwash summer camp". Ynet. Retrieved 2008-11-16. {{cite web}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)
• Welkos, Robert W. (1990-06-27). "Church Seeks Influence in Schools, Business, Science". Los Angeles Times. Retrieved 2008-11-16. {{cite web}}: Check date values in: |date= (help); Unknown parameter |coauthors= ignored (|author= suggested) (help)
• Pittman, Craig (1997-02-02). "Classes for defendants have ties to church". St. Petersburg Times. Retrieved 2008-11-16. {{cite web}}: Check date values in: |date= (help); Unknown parameter |coauthors= ignored (|author= suggested) (help)
• Vega, Cecilia M. (2007-10-13). "Group censured for using Newsom's image in pro-Scientology booklet". San Francisco Chronicle. Retrieved 2008-11-16. {{cite web}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)
• Didcock, Barry (2007-02-17). "Hubbard Love". Sunday Herald. Retrieved 2008-11-16. {{cite web}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)
• Kives, Bartley (2007-10-30). "Katz finds religion... or vice versa". Winnipeg Free Press. Retrieved 2008-11-16. {{cite web}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)
• Friedman, Roger (2008-02-08). "Kimora Lee Simmons Scientology Cameo". Huffington Post. Retrieved 2008-11-16. {{cite web}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)
• Friedman, Roger (2008-02-08). "Kimora Lee: No Scientology". Celebrity Gossip. FOX News. Retrieved 2008-11-16. {{cite web}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)
• Kleinberg, Eliot (2008-03-08). "Mayors find happiness booklet irritating". Palm Beach Post. Retrieved 2008-11-16. {{cite web}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)
• Kleinig, Xanthe (2007-10-29). "Parent anger at religious 'advice'". The Advertiser. Retrieved 2008-11-16. {{cite web}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)
• "S.F. orders Scientology group to stop using Mayor Newsom pic". AP. San Diego Union-Tribune. 2007-10-13. Retrieved 2008-11-16. {{cite web}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)
• Rackham, Anne (1991-09-02). "Scientologists emerge as creators of mystery-shrouded movie firm". Los Angeles Business Journal. Retrieved 2008-11-16. {{cite web}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)
• Vick, Karl (1993-10-15). "Scientologists profit from new members". St. Petersburg Times. Retrieved 2008-11-16. {{cite web}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)
• Doward, Jamie (2005-03-27). "Scientologists will 'purify' drug addicts - for £15,000". Drugs in Britain. The Observer. Retrieved 2008-11-16. {{cite web}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)
• Hatzipanagos, Rachel (2008-03-11). "Scientology group stops guidebook mailings". South Florida Sun-Sentinel. Retrieved 2008-11-16. {{cite web}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)
• Rada, Moran (2007-06-07). "Scientology infiltrates summer camps". Ynet. Retrieved 2008-11-16. {{cite web}}: Check date values in: |date= (help); Unknown parameter |coauthors= ignored (|author= suggested) (help)
• Asimov, Nanette (2004-06-09). "Scientology link to public schools / As early as the third grade, students in S.F.and elsewhere are subtly introduced to church's concepts via anti-drug teachings". San Francisco Chronicle. Retrieved 2008-11-16. {{cite web}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)
• Steve Bousquet (2005-05-26). "Scientology program may fall to budget ax". St. Petersburg Times. Retrieved 2008-11-16. {{cite web}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)
• Farley, Robert (2005-09-09). "Scientology reaches out and touches a nerve". St. Petersburg Times. Retrieved 2008-11-16. {{cite web}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)
• Doward, Jamie (2006-10-22). "Scientology sets up house in the City". The Observer. Retrieved 2008-11-16. {{cite web}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)
• Di Matteo, Enzo (1998-12-10). "Scientology wants city's kids". NOW Magazine. Retrieved 2008-11-16. {{cite web}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)
• Ortega, Tony (2008-06-30). "Scientology's Crushing Defeat". Village Voice. Retrieved 2008-11-16. {{cite web}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)
• Jones, Ryan (2007-08-17). "Scientology-Linked Group Infiltrates Israeli Summer Camps". CNSNews.com. Retrieved 2008-11-16. {{cite web}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)
• Wagner, Matthew (2008-01-31). "Sderot residents offered Scientology workshops". Jerusalem Post. Retrieved 2008-11-16. {{cite web}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)
• Garcia, David Alire (2007-03-28). "Taking Chances". Santa Fe Reporter. Retrieved 2008-11-16. {{cite web}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)
• Behar, Richard (1991-05-06). "The Thriving Cult of Greed and Power". Cover story. TIME Magazine. Retrieved 2008-11-16. {{cite web}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)
• "Threatened by 'Operation Planetary Calm': Germany Will Continue to Watch Scientologists". Spiegel Online. 2008-02-13. Retrieved 2008-11-16. {{cite web}}: Check date values in: |date= (help); Unknown parameter |coauthors= ignored (|author= suggested) (help)

YHRI:

• Epstein Elias, Bat-Hen (2007-08-14). "Brainwash summer camp". Ynet. Retrieved 2008-11-16. {{cite web}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)
• Rubin, Joel (2005-10-01). "District Scrambles to Ensure Human Rights Event Is Religion-Free". Los Angeles Times. Retrieved 2008-11-16. {{cite web}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)
• Hendry, Andrew (2008-03-28). "Scientology video channel's credibility in question". PC World. Retrieved 2008-11-16. {{cite web}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)
• Patty, Anna (2007-03-28). "Unwitting high-schoolers lured to forum run by Scientologists". Sydney Morning Herald. Retrieved 2008-11-16. {{cite web}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)
• Heruti-Sover, Tali (2007-01-19). "Youth group supported by Scientology". Ynet. Retrieved 2008-11-16. {{cite web}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)

Some of those links have expired, but I still have a local copy of each of them and can cite them without the link. I'm not sure what threshold is for "great controversy"—Some 18 high ranking members convicted and two convictions against Scientology itself as with Operation Snow White? AndroidCat (talk) 05:41, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

I'm not talking about the CoS only assosiated orgs, the only thing controversial about The Way to Happiness and Youth for Human Rights is that it is associated with CoS. That's what all your links state. What about if we just state:

Scientology and associated organizations have been highly controversial since it's induction.

I would go for that.Bravehartbear (talk) 07:38, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

Comments on "The Lead debunked"

I agree that the sentence about psychiatry and psychology at the end of the first para is badly placed and should move to controversies. Jayen466 23:28, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

As for the structure of the lead, I would propose:

1. Scientology origin and brief history
2. Beliefs and practices
3. The church of Scientology and other organizations
4. Controversy

I think it makes more sense to retain Beliefs and Practices as the second element, since we are, in this article, dealing with Scientology, i.e. a religious philosophy.

The things about auditing, anti-drug programs etc. could go together with the beliefs outlined in the second paragraph, couldn't they? Jayen466 23:34, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

The "lived many lifetimes" is indeed a bit daft. We could say, approximately following Melton, "inhabited many different bodies throughout their existence". Jayen466 23:43, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

"What happened with the scientology principles that were in the article?" They were sourced to primary sources, Bravehartbear, which is not good enough, since then it is editors deciding which elements are noteworthy and which are not. Please help us reintroduce them by researching reliable sources that describe these principles. Melton has a few such descriptions, and there may be more in the academic works for which I gave google books links above. Most of the pages of these books can be read online in google books. (If occasionally a page is not available, try switching from google.com to google.co.uk or another country. Sometimes a page that is blanked in one google country is not blanked in another. Some of the books are also browsable, for a limited number of pages, in amazon.com, if you are a registered customer there.) Jayen466 23:49, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

I agree that the Xenu "not taught to new members" thing takes up too much room in the lede. Xenu is central to the discourse of Scientology opponents (serving mostly to ridicule the religion), but is not a central belief of Scientology. As such, it is perhaps better placed in the controversies part of the lede. Jayen466 23:53, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

I agree with Bravehartbear that naming the Time magazine article is overkill, given that we have already summarized the claims of journalists, former members, critics etc. Perhaps an overall summary like this would do in that part of the lede:

"Scientology has been subject to exceptionally intense and wide-spread criticism. Ex-members, journalists, courts, and authorities in multiple countries have alleged that Scientology is a cult, an unscrupulous commercial enterprise, and that it uses methods of intimidation and harassment against its critics."

Jayen466 00:02, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

Steven A. Kent

Steven Kent has been highly criticized by various religious scholars for lack of academic attitude and integrity has been questioned because he has received exorbitant amounts of money to create legal affidavits.

Point of information: The "various religious scholars" epithet is a generality and the actual number cited below is four. The "exhorbitant amounts of money" epithet is another generality and corporate scientology POV. The study tech scholar who started this section misspelled his first name which is "Stephen".--Fahrenheit451 (talk) 20:31, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

Kent's own rather shallow studies based as they are almost entirely on the accounts of a small number of hostile ex-members and a very selective choice of citations from the literature. _{J. Gordon Melton, 1998}

Wasn't Melton a paid consultant for the CofS around the time he wrote that comment?--Fahrenheit451 (talk) 00:56, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

As I said before, it is not up to WP editors to decide on a scholar's standing; it is the scholarly community that decides that. Jayen466 01:35, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

OK, I've gotta come out of my self-imposed exile to reply to this. You just negated WP:RS with that argument. So far, your arguments, while I disagree with them, have come from an understandable perspective. This? Not so much. Wikipedia has guidelines for determining what is and is not a reliable source for a reason. Financially compromised sources (such as scientists paid by oil companies to denounce climate change, or tobacco-funded researchers who discover that tobacco isn't bad for you) are not generally considered reliable for anything but the opinions of their sponsors. If Melton was a consultant for the Church of Scientology at the time he wrote that, it doesn't reflect well on his academic credentials. Quoting WP:RS on scholarly sources: "Academic and peer-reviewed publications are usually the most reliable sources when available. However, some scholarly material may be outdated, superseded by more recent research, in competition with alternate theories, or controversial within the relevant field. Reliable non-academic sources may also be used, particularly material from reputable mainstream publications." If Melton was being paid by the Church at the time, I would be concerned that the field of religious scholars (I consider NRM scholars to be way, way too narrow a field to be applicable, since there are like six of them, and Melton's one) might find that controversial. In any event, it really is up to WP editors to determine if a scholar is a reliable source. For a bunch of outsider perspectives, might I suggest bringing Melton to the attention of the reliable sources noticeboard? --GoodDamon 14:55, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

We are very, very far from the situations you describe. In the case of tobacco scholars and the like, you will find that there is a majority of scientists dismissing their findings and pointing out their apparent conflict of interest. Their works will not enter university curricula. They will not be considered leading scholars in their field. In other words, there will be substantial evidence in reliable sources, authored by authorities in their field, that their research was compromised. This is not the case here.

I believe Kent's complaint against Melton was that Melton signed a document supporting Scientology's efforts to keep its upper level teachings confidential. The above-quoted comments by Melton were in response to that. I believe it's nonsense to claim that he was "a paid consultant for Scientology at the time he wrote that article" (source please, published, not some Internet post). As it happens, Melton's view on a religion's right to keep its esoterica secret was and is shared by the majority of religious scholars, including Wilson, who was generally considered a world authority. Lastly, a scholar widely viewed as having been "bought" by the tobacco industry is not likely to be selected as the author of the Encyclopedia Britannica's article on cigarettes. Melton has authored the article on Scientology, as well as a dozen other such groups, including AUM. If you want to go to RS/N, by all means, let's. But I suggest you bring some reliable sources alleging that Melton's academic standing has been compromised, rather than an ex-cathedra statement likening him to a paid tobacco scholar. Cheers, Jayen466 17:03, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

Here is an example of a university syllabus. Required reading on the CofS includes Melton (2000). Introvigne is also in there, as are Dawson and Singer. Here another one, with Dawson and Melton. Here yet another, listing two works by Melton. And so forth.If you tell me you read on an Internet page that the universities have got it all wrong and are part of a big conspiracy, and we shouldn't cite any university scholars, what do you expect me to say to you? Jayen466 17:46, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

You misunderstood me. I didn't mean to imply that the situations directly relate. I presented the tobacco- and oil-paid scientists as examples of the kinds of "scholars" we should definitely dismiss per WP:RS, and was merely disagreeing with your assertion that "it is not up to WP editors to decide on a scholar's standing." The analysis you performed -- tracking down universities that rely on Melton to demonstrate that he may be regarded as a reliable source -- is exactly the kind of thing Wikipedia editors should do in determining how the peers of a given scholar regard his/her work. Frankly, outside of a few universities that use his books in courses on new religious movements (thank you for that, by the way), I still don't know very much about the man or how his work is regarded by the larger world of religious scholarly study, nor do I know how carefully peer-reviewed his work is. --GoodDamon 19:58, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

I'm sorry if I misunderstood. Further to the above, I've done a comparative study of the frequency of Kent's and Melton's work in university syllabi, which may be of use.

• Here are .edu-hosted syllabi or course outlines that mention Scientology and refer to "Stephen Kent" or "Steven Kent" or "A. Kent" or "S. Kent": the total is 3.
• Here are .edu-hosted syllabi or course outlines that mention Scientology and refer to "Gordon Melton" or "J. Melton" or "G. Melton": the total is 11.
• Here the same for Introvigne: [25]

A number of university syllabi are collected on the website of the American Academy of Religion.

• Here are those that mention Scientology and Melton: [26]
• Here are those that mention Scientology and Kent: [27]

I posted this on RS/N the other day:

• J. Gordon Melton is Director of the Institute for the Study of American Religion and a Research Specialist with the Dept. of Religious Studies at the University of California, Santa Barbara. He is the author of such standard reference works as the Encyclopedia of American Religion and the Encyclopedic Handbook of Cults in America, and of such recent works as Religious Leaders of America and the New Age Encyclopedia. Melton also happens to be the second-most prolific contributor to Encyclopedia Britannica.
• More links like that, Melton in google scholar Jayen466 20:22, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

"If Kent really thinks that experts in “cult” cases should make $11,000 for each 13,000-words document based on their previous works they write, he may be right after all and academic integrity may, in fact, be in serious danger.” _{Dr. Massimo Introvigne, Director, Center for Studies on New Religions}

And Introvigne is a patent attorney hired by the CofS to testify on their behalf in France? --Fahrenheit451 (talk) 00:56, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

Kent has also contradicted himself stating that Scientology is a religion in a $21,600 affidavit that he made for a case against WISE he states: "intrusion of religious concepts into the workplace" "contained the Scientology religion". How come Kent can't make up his mind stating that Scientology is a religion in one affidavit and is not a religion in another one? It seems to me that his testimony is for sale.

"Kent concludes that Scientology is a religion based mostly on its notions of thetan and of past lives. We applaud Kent's reliance (at least) on mainline scholarship on Scientology in order to come to the conclusion that what others (including persons Kent should know better than any other) have described as mere "treatment" is in fact "a religious practice" ” _{Dr. Massimo Introvigne, Director, Center for Studies on New Religions}

CofS was Introvigne's client, were they not?--Fahrenheit451 (talk) 00:58, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

"Kent’s essays suffer from methodological flaws so grievous as to call into question the validity and reliability of Kent’s conclusions, especially as the foundation for sound legal or legislative action (with regard to conflicts with new religious movements at either the individual or collective levels). In fact the methodological inadequacies detected are indicative of a prejudice inappropriate to the practice of the social sciences (given the consensus on maintaining at least the regulative ideal of objectivity and value-neutrality)." _{Dr. Lorne L. Dawson, Associate Professor of Sociology and Religious Studies, University of Waterloo, Waterloo, Ontario.}

Wasn't Dawson a paid consultant of the CofS around the time he made that comment?--Fahrenheit451 (talk) 00:56, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

"Kent and his cronies (like hollow-earth enthusiasts, big foot believers, and other advocates of the irrational) have responded [to criticism from the academic community] with ad hominem arguments, convinced that any who would oppose their crackpot theories must be involved in some kind of sinister conspiracy against them….I examined [the] data and concluded that Prof. Kent had, indeed, violated the canons of academic research methodology as well as the ethical standards of mainstream scholarship." _{Dr. James Lewis, Professor, University of Wisconsin}

Did "Dr." Lewis have a PhD at the time he made that comment or was he telling us a tall tale?--Fahrenheit451 (talk) 00:56, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

The bottom line is that Steven A. Kent is not a reliable source of academic information. Bravehartbear (talk) 02:29, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

So says CESNUR and the Church of Scientology's website? (www.religiousfreedomwatch.org)?? Oh good grief! AndroidCat (talk) 05:17, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

No these are a bunch of religious schoolars making these obsevations CENSUR and religious freedom watch are the ones that are publishing it. Any way what's wrong with CENSUR?

Bravehartbear (talk) 07:05, 28 November 2008 (UTC) Bravehartbear (talk) 07:27, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

Bravehartbear, see the related RS/N thread if you haven't noticed it yet. Cheers, Jayen466 17:56, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

Bravehartbear, please visit Sarin gas attack on the Tokyo subway and ask the editors there if they think J. Gordon Melton is a legitimate source of facts about what is a cult, what is a peaceful law-abiding religion, and what is scholarly. Sarcasm aside. Kent is argues Scientology is a cult, not a real religion. So, of course, he wishes to both deny it the rewards of religious-status (tax exemption), and still deny it what he would deny all religious groups (presence/preference in public schools, businesses, government, etc...). Being designated a cult, does not mean organization should be freed of the restrictions of a religious group. --Rob (talk) 08:12, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

You wrote, "Kent [...] argues Scientology is a cult, not a real religion." This actually misrepresents Kent's position as expressed in his paper "Scientology -- Is This a Religion?" In it, Kent appears to me to argue that Scientology is a religion to its adherents, but that it is also a number of other things besides, with only one component of the whole package being religious. Kent's paper contains not a single instance of the word "cult". (Also see Introvigne, "Kent has ... always claimed that Scientology is also, but not exclusively a religion".) Jayen466 23:23, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

Both Kent and Dawson are generally recognized as Scholarly sources. That being said, Kent is decried by some as having a few flawed arguments. Although he criticizes Kent's methods as not being comprehensive, Dawson makes an interesting statement about "the world's fastest growing religion":

The Catholic Church has been the subject of vociferous criticism by hundreds, if not thousands of people for centuries. Yet it would be hard to imagine that any credible historian or social scientist would think to investigate the church by seeking only the views of its critics, while dismissing all of the pronouncements of the church out of hand. What is the difference? The Catholic Church, by virtue of its size and longevity, has a greater measure of legitimacy in our society than the Church of Scientology. It is not, in other words, in the vulnerable position of being a minority.

— Lorne L. Dawson

Later in his footnotes, although once again criticizing Kent's method (read on after this quote, if you wish), he says:

When the RPF was created in 1974, for example, Russel Miller, a well-known critic of Scientology, argued (1987:318-23) that there is strong evidence that Hubbard acted rather impulsively and was emotionally and mentally unbalanced. He seemed to be experiencing some kind of nervous breakdown. As Miller presents matters, the creation of the RPF is but one of a number of "bizarre" behaviors that "indicated that he was losing his facility to distinguish... between fact and fiction" (323). The Church of Scientology may well wish to dispute this account, but Miller is one of Kent's prime sources for information about the origins of the RPF.

— Lorne L. Dawson

←Spidern→ 13:07, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

Kent is a significant scholar and commentator on Scientology, there is absolute no question about that. Many scholars disagree with aspects of his arguments, and we should try accurately to reflect the status of scholarly debate, but Kent's voice belongs in the mix we have to mirror. Jayen466 14:31, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

For the context of the quoted comments by James R. Lewis, see the copy on Hein's site [28] which has the whole shebang of the controversy. Jayen466 14:43, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

OK, so we have to address the reality that there is no set Scholastic view of Scientology, that this like everything else is debatable. Bravehartbear (talk) 23:46, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

Well said. If people agreed about everything, life would be boring wouldn't it? :) On a more serious note: If anything good has come of the page being locked, at least we've had a chance to determine some good academic sources to be used (the need for something like that was brought up before, but never really addressed). ←Spidern→ 16:31, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

I've added a couple more above. One of them is a major, 500-page Oxford University Press publication on Scientology due to come out in February next year. Jayen466 17:53, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

I'm looking forward for that paper. Looks pretty exhaustive. ←Spidern→ 19:56, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

Forgive me worrying that it's a piece of goo. "Official national census figures indicate that the number of Scientologists grew significantly in Canada". Errr, no, they didn't. The Jedi had far more significant numbers. AndroidCat (talk) 07:11, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

Does anybody know the numbers in Canada for any year other than the 2001 census (1,525), to allow for a comparison? Just curious (sorry for going off-topic). --Rob (talk) 08:40, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

1,220 in 1991, 1,525 in 2001. They don't seem to have compiled results for 2006 online yet, but the question is only on the decennial census.[29] (20,000 Jedi in 2001![30]) It's much the same with New Zealand and Australia: Fluctuations with current minor gains, but nothing that could be described as "grew significantly" by an honest researcher. AndroidCat (talk) 16:08, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

(outdent) For reference, the 1991 and 2001 census figures for the three countries are:

• NZ increase from 207 to 282 (up to 357 in 2006)
• AU increase from 1,091 to 2,032 (up to 2,507 in 2006)
• CA increase from 1,220 to 1,525

(Figures are "admitted" Scientologists, i.e. those who volunteered this info in the census. Sources in Church of Scientology.) Jayen466 18:24, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

In Canada, there are only two data points (1991 was the first year it was asked), so it's hard to assign any real meaning. The small increase could also be explained by low numbers of "admitted" Scientologists in 1991 (during the lead-up to R. v. Church of Scientology of Toronto), followed by strong urging by the organization for members to answer the question in 2001. It's all handwaving until after 2011. The small numbers are also a problem. I could start a NRM of one, convert someone else and my group would have doubled in size, 100% growth .. but it wouldn't be very significant. AndroidCat (talk) 18:49, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

Sure, I understand the maths. And I am sure you understand that the Australian figure increased 86% over that ten-year period, and 129% over 15 years. At any rate, the above figures, and the sentence in the website blurb, are not a solid basis to impugn the integrity of a respected researcher. It's very simple: "Dishonest" academics don't get to write book after book for Oxford University Press. Editors cannot make a personal decision here as to which academics they consider "okay" and expect other editors to abide by those assessments. For Wikipedia purposes, it is these academics' peers who make the decision as to who is reliable and who is not. On that basis, Lewis is well in the clear. Jayen466 18:58, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

He's "in the clear" until he publishes book with faulty statistical analysis. A small clump of self-referencing NRM academics is not immune to critiques on their methodology from the world of science outside their tiny little field. AndroidCat (talk) 05:55, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

Here is the wikilink to Stephen Kent's bio: Stephen_A._Kent--Fahrenheit451 (talk) 20:47, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

Wow

This "religion" is a joke. The "Galactic Confederacy"...LULZ. However, the article is actually extremely well written, the sources, especially in the lead are nothing short of perfection, and I certainly hope nobody is considering making any large changes. Thats all. 70.244.235.38 (talk) 04:08, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

Although your suggestions aren't exactly article improving, I have to agree on all counts... 71.144.122.24 (talk) 08:35, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

Remember: Wikipedia is not a forum Xavexgoem (talk) 23:43, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

Two bits from Melton

It is not clear how literally Hubbard expected church members to accept the mythology of the OT levels. As with biblical mythology, aspects are difficult to correlate with, e.g., modern geological findings. But as is the case with New Age notions of Atlantis and Lemuria, Hubbard may merely have meant this cosmic history to be received as mythological truth, stories which tell the truth about the self better than mere abstract propositions. It is the case, however, that on whatever level Scientologists have received this mythology, they have found it a meaningful tool in their quest to become fully spiritual beings.

— Melton (2000), p. 33

Scientology believes psychiatry is built upon a false foundation which ignores basic insights discovered by Hubbard—that the mind is composed primarily of mental image pictures, that the brain is simply a conduit for the mind, and that humans are essentially spiritual beings. Rather, according to Hubbard, psychiatry and the related field of psychology have built their understanding on the premise that humans are basically animals, that mental activity originates in the brain, and that humans respond most directly to environmental stimuli. Scientology has also charged that, however well meaning some individual practitioners may be, psychiatry as a field has become permeated with criminality and has repeatedly offered itself as a governmental tool for political suppression.

— Melton (2000), p.49

Offers useful angles and alternative viewpoints that we should include. Jayen466 22:35, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

WP:AE

This is just an FYI on the Arbitration Enforcement thread which is currently open here. ←Spidern→ 13:44, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

Reorganization proposal

Let's talk a little bit about something happier than what's going on with ArbCom. This article needs to become a true WP:SUMMARY-style article; Scientology as an overall topic is simply too big to fit in one article, and there are too many arguments over which content should and should not go into it. So I propose a top-to-bottom restructuring of this article and related topics, with an emphasis on keeping each sub-topic as partitioned from the other topics as possible, so that proper WP:WEIGHT can be applied to each stand-alone subject instead of the subjects fighting with each other for space. The more detailed information can then go in the appropriate sub-article. Please note that my headings are just preliminary suggestions.

So without further ado, this is my proposed structure for the article as a summary article:

• Intro - This should itself summarize everything below. It should not be front-loaded with straight across the board duplications of anything.

• Beliefs and practices (Main article: Scientology beliefs and practices) - An overview of the Scientology belief system's beliefs and practices. The section in the main article should focus on what Scientologists purport to believe, although it should limit itself to reliable secondary sources and avoid any use of Hubbard's own books and writings for citations. It should not go into any great depth about ARC, KRC, Dianetics, or any of the more controversial practices such as anti-psychiatry. An overview of each is quite enough.

• Xenu/OT-I:OT-VIII subsection (Main articles: Xenu, Galactic Confederacy, Operating Thetan etc.) - As it is highly notable and the source of considerable press about Scientology, there should be a brief overview of the hidden doctrines of Scientology. There should absolutely not be an excessive focus on detail for a summary-style article, and I say this because it's going to be a massive troll and critic attractor. Everything that goes in this subsection should be weighed very carefully to be sure it's pertinent enough to go in the main article, and isn't just a particularly juicy, "fun" detail.

• History (Main article: Timeline of Scientology, perhaps a new history article?) - A brief overview of the history of Scientology. The history of any belief system should mention -- briefly -- the founding of its primary supporting organization, notable events (such as when Scientology became a religion), notable historical controversies, etc.
• Organizations (Main article: Church of Scientology) - An overview of the organizations that support Scientology, with most of the emphasis being on the Church as the primary topic.

• Hierarchy subsection (Main articles: Church of Spiritual Technology, Religious Technology Center, etc.) - A brief rundown of the interconnecting parts that comprise the organizational whole associated with Scientology. Focus should mostly be on how they all interrelated, with details about each specific organization left to the sub-articles.
• Splinter groups subsection (Main article: Free Zone (Scientology)) - An overview of the groups that reject the Church and the interconnecting organizations.

• Controversial and criminal behavior (Main articles: Operation Freakout, Operation Snow White, Fair Game (Scientology), etc.) - An overview -- and please, don't go into excessive detail -- about the more notorious criminal cases and policies of the Church of Scientology. This should not be a huge section; more detail is most appropriate in the Church of Scientology article and the sub-articles for each specific topic. Of all sections, this one has the greatest danger of becoming the largest and most overpowering one out of a desire by critics to stack every news story or detail into it. Please stick only to the biggest and most well-known/notable topics here. There should be subsections on:

• Notable criminal cases
• Controversial policies (such as Fair Game)
• Anti-psychiatry

• Scientology as a business (Main article: Scientology as a business) - An overview of the Scientology's status in various countries, and in various components, as a business instead of a religion.

This is just a template, which I am happy to see adjusted and altered. Let's get this thing organized. Thoughts? --GoodDamon 18:50, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

I fully agree with you (as stated earlier) that this article needs to follow Summary Style. I think the organization you have listed about looks reasonable. DigitalC (talk) 04:17, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

I think this looks very sensible on the whole. Which section should summarise "Scientology as a state-recognized religion" – "History" or "Scientology as a Business"? Jayen466 06:20, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

Careful on the "state-recognized religion" point. In most countries where scientology cloaks itself as a religion, there is no official recognition "as a religion". For example, in the U.S. the scientology group of companies have tax-exempt status, but under the first amendment to the U.S. Constitution, no governmental entity may proclaim what is or is not a religion. --Fahrenheit451 (talk) 19:50, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

Whoops, knew I'd forgotten something. Let's see... Separate section? Both Business and Religion incorporated into History? I'm open to suggestions. --GoodDamon 15:30, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

There are three circumstances that have a bearing on the matter as far as the US are concerned: (1) a letter that was sent to foreign governments 15 years ago, clearly referring to Scientology as a religion (2) the fact that following the IRS decision, the US State Department's Religious Freedom Reports began to comment on the treatment of Scientologists in various countries (3) that numerous pages on US government websites refer to Scientology as a religion (4) that numerous reliable sources, e.g. [31], explicitly refer to recognition as a religion in the US. As for other countries, a number of them do have an official register of religions to which Scientology has been added (eg Spain and Sweden). In Australia, a Supreme Court decision 25 years ago officially pronounced Scientology a religion, overturning an earlier decision to the contrary. In Italy, too, the Supreme Court affirmed Scientology's religious status. Jayen466 20:04, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

Since the issue is a complicated one (and frankly made more so by the fact that parts of Scientology are specifically pushed for secular use) any section about Scientology as a religion should stick to the countries that have a comparatively large Scientology presence and give an overview of that country's legal recognition (or lack thereof) of Scientology's religious status. I'm thinking three or four countries, tops, with countries that have a minimal Scientology presence detailed in a sub-article. --GoodDamon 20:18, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

We should really stick to secondary sources on this material as well. DigitalC (talk) 03:10, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

Sure thang. Sources are available for these countries, just didn't bother typing them in here. Jayen466 04:01, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

I think we should mention Australia, since it was one of the first countries to recognise it, and the court's findings proved influential in the English-speaking world, as well as the States, obviously. Spain and Italy could be mentioned in passing. Germany and France are key nations on the other side of the debate. There was also an important case involving Russia at the European Court of Human Rights. Jayen466 00:35, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

Please note that I object to the phrasing "where Scientology cloaks itself as a religion". Jayen466 20:16, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

I acknowledge your objection, however, my statements about religious cloaking are accurate and factual. Please see Larry Brennan's affidavit here:[32]--Fahrenheit451 (talk) 03:59, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

Don't be daft, x number of courts have taken a different view. And it's insulting to an individual scientologist who sincerely views it as his religion. But thanks for acknowleding my objection, anyway. I likewise acknowledge that you have your convictions. Cheers, Jayen466 04:07, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

I asked you to look at an affidavit, and your response is to tell me not to be daft. Did you even read the affidavit? Brennan even testified to a governmental body in Hamburg, Germany not too long ago.--Fahrenheit451 (talk) 04:20, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

The affidavit is not good it doesn't have a signature or a court seal, anyway is just a POV, it is up to the court to determine the facts and like Jayen said: "x number of courts have taken a different view." And that's a fact. Bravehartbear (talk) 23:14, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

I have to agree. Fahrenheit451, could you please tone down the rhetoric? --GoodDamon 20:18, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

Not rhetoric, my friend, fact than I can personally confirm.--Fahrenheit451 (talk) 04:01, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

I agree with the proposed reorganization proposal, right now this article is very anarchal --Zaharous (talk) 00:41, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

I agree with the re-org. Bravehartbear (talk) 13:54, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

Editprotected request

{{Editprotected}}

<ref>[http://www.whyaretheydead.net/krasel/aff_at.html Affidavit of Andre Tabayoyon], 5 March 1994, in ''Church of Scientology International vs. Steven Fishman and Uwe Geertz'', contradicted in [http://www.freewebtown.com/luana/11apr94-mudslide.pdf sworn declaration of staffer James Hall], 11 April 1994</ref>

The two hyperlinks in the above text should both be removed from the article. Requesting another administrator do this. Thank you, Cirt (talk) 01:39, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

Agreed. The sworn Declaration is here now[33] but I don't know if it can stay there. Some Admin please check this out. If ok, we could exchange the above link with this. Shutterbug (talk) 04:53, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

 Done Ruslik (talk) 09:11, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

The use of self-published sources

I just want to point out that self published sources can be used!!! WP:SPS states:

Using self-published and questionable sources as sources on themselves

Self-published or questionable sources may be used as sources of information about themselves, especially in articles about themselves, without the requirement that they be published experts in the field, so long as:

the material used is relevant to the notability of the subject of the article;

1. it is not unduly self-serving;
2. it does not involve claims about third parties;
3. it does not involve claims about events not directly related to the subject;
4. there is no reason to doubt its authenticity;
5. the article is not based primarily on such sources;
6. the source in question has been mentioned specifically in relation to the article's subject by an independent, reliable source.

Meta-issue: Court documents and reliable sourcing

This would be as good a time as any to open the issue of court documents. Court documents are primary materials that, like all primary materials, may be used in accordance with WP:PRIMARY. That policy is very general and the proper use of primary materials in specific instances will always be a topic for discussion. There is, however, a meta-issue that I would like to discuss. I will try to state it below, feel free to amend it toward a better statement. --Justallofthem (talk) 18:06, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

Statement of issue

These are many court documents related to Scientology. For the our purposes and with reference to WP:PRIMARY these may be divided into three rough categories.

1. Court documents that have been published in whole or in part in secondary sources.
2. Court documents that have been specifically referenced in secondary sources but not published verbatim.
3. Court documents that have not been specifically referenced in secondary sources.

Issue 1

The proper place of these three categories is the first issue to be addressed here.

Once we have decided that we might want to use a court document as a source, the question comes up as to how, exactly, do we access this document. In the past, I believe that I can say with confidence, editors have used so-called "courtesy copies" hosted on POV sites critical of Scientology. This practice is currently under the spotlight after editors objected to an affidavit hosted similarly but on a Scientology-sympathetic site. That instance is a good example of the problem that we need to solve. The so-called "Ronald DeWolf retraction affidavit" is referenced in a number of secondary materials critical of Scientology. The only place I found it online was on the scientologymyths.info site, here, and an associated archive site. As the document is referenced in multiple places it might be appropriate to quote relevant parts of it if we can agree on the suitability of the sourcing.

Issue 2

The second issue to be addressed here is what would constitute an acceptable "true copy" of a court document for use here.

Comment by Justallofthem

On the first issue, use of the last would seem to violate the text and spirit of WP:PRIMARY, i.e. the "affidavit of Joe Blow in the case of Suzie Que vs. the Church of Scientology" would have no place in Wikipedia if that specific document has not at least been referenced in a secondary source. We are not in the position to judge the merit, relative importance, or credibility of a document such as that. I will withhold my comments on the second issue for now as I want to hear what others have to say. --Justallofthem (talk) 18:06, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

Comment by Fahrenheit451

Justallofthem, I note that you refer to affidavit "courtesy copies" "hosted on POV sites critical of Scientology", but on the other hand you refer to an affidavit "hosted similarly but on a Scientology-sympathetic site", and not refering to that affidavit as a courtesy copy or the scientology sympathetic site as "POV". You are clearly treating each situation in accordance with your own POV and not impartially.--Fahrenheit451 (talk) 07:46, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

Please word-clear "similarly". --Justallofthem (talk) 12:41, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

Please strive to keep your POV out of this discussion.--Fahrenheit451 (talk) 00:22, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

Why, should we only allow your POV? I quote: You are clearly treating each situation in accordance with your own POV and not impartially' Snort. --Justallofthem (talk) 04:33, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

Again, please keep your POV out of this discussion. No snort.--Fahrenheit451 (talk) 05:27, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

Why do you always want to waste time with this off-topic sniping? --Justallofthem (talk) 12:31, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

The sniping seems to be coming from you here. I made a comment and you replied with an snide "Please word-clear "similarly". I attempted to put the discussion back on track and you replied with another snide remark. You may be talking about yourself.--Fahrenheit451 (talk) 06:13, 20 December 2008 (UTC)

Comment by Jayen466

I agree that we should not use court documents that are not referred to in secondary sources – it is original research to do so. We should reflect the current published secondary sources. Jayen466 13:34, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

Comment by Bravehartbear

Court Documents should only be used as a reference for a secundary source and never as a primary source. I don't have have problem with judgements but affidavits are only a POV. I'm very concern this will be just a used as a POV pushing tool. Also a official court document requires a signature and a court seal. Bravehartbear (talk) 18:24, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

Comment by Proximodiz

Court documents could be useful to back up date information (like the incorporation date of the first Church of Scientology) but they cannot be hosted on private sites. I think such documents should be uploaded to Wikisource and scrutinized for validity before they can be used as a reference. Case in point, the links for following reference "Church of American Science' (incorporation papers); 'Church of Scientology' (incorporation papers); 'Church of Spiritual Engineering,' (incorporation papers); 18 December 1953." should be removed. Proximodiz (talk) 04:31, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

Scientology History

I have big problems with the last sentences of the 4th paragraph:

Mr. Miscavige, the highest-ranking Scientology leader, walked in to see Fred T. Goldberg Jr., the Commissioner of the Internal Revenue Service at the time, without an appointment. He was later seen and allegedly offered to halt the lawsuits Scientology had against the IRS in exchange for tax exempt status. To this end, Goldberg allegedly ordered tax analysts to ignore multiple court precedents and other substantive issues during the review of the decision.}

Since when Wikipedia uses the word allegedly? Who alleged what? The official statement from IRS officials is:

While I.R.S. officials insisted that Scientology's tactics had not affected the decision, some officials acknowledged that ruling against the church would have prolonged a fight that had consumed extensive Government resources and exposed officials to personal lawsuits. At one time, the church and its members had more than 50 suits pending against the I.R.S. and its officials.

"Ultimately the decision was made on a legal basis," said a senior I.R.S. official who was involved in the case and spoke on the condition that he not be identified. "I'm not saying Scientology wasn't taking up a lot of resources, but the decision was made on a legal basis."

"In interviews, senior Scientology officials and the I.R.S. denied that the church's aggressive tactics had any effect on the agency's decision. They said the ruling was based on a two-year inquiry and voluminous documents that showed the church was qualified for the exemptions.

Metting betwen Miscavige and Goldberg was private to the only references to this meeting are from the CoS and state that it was done to resolve the dispute. What was offered or not is pure speculation. Afther the metting Goldberg set up a committee to resolve this issue.

When the committee determined that all Scientology entities should be exempt from taxes, I.R.S. tax analysts were ordered to ignore the substantive issues in reviewing the decision, according to I.R.S. memorandums and court files.

Mr. Schoenfeld, the negotiations chairman, ordered the two tax analysts assigned to the review not to consider any substantive matters, according to I.R.S. memorandums and records in the Tax Analysts case. Those issues, Mr. Schoenfeld informed them, had been resolved.

The tax analysts were ordered to ignore multiple court precedents and other substantive issues during the review of the decision because this issues were already resolved by the commitee.

So lets stick to the facts and ignore opinions or allegations. The facts are these:

1. The tax exempt status was granded and then removed on the basis that it profited Hubbard.
2. The CoS responded by making it dificult for the IRS.
3. DM and Goldberg meet.
4. Goldberg set up a committee to resolve this issue.
5. The committee determined that all Scientology entities should be exempt from taxes.
6. The ruling was based on a two-year inquiry and voluminous documents that showed the church was qualified for the exemptions. The IRS stated the pressure by CoS was not a factor.
7. Two tax analysts were assigned to do a review and finish the settlement. They were ordered not to consider any substantive matters because these issues were already resolved.

ref:

PS all the above quotes are from the same NY Times article. Humbly Bravehartbear (talk) 02:30, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

The New York Times article says:

Among the findings of the review by The Times, based on more than 30 interviews and thousands of pages of public and internal church records, were these:

• ...
• The decision to negotiate with the church came after Fred T. Goldberg Jr., the Commissioner of the Internal Revenue Service at the time, had an unusual meeting with Mr. Miscavige in 1991. Scientology's own version of what occurred offers a remarkable account of how the church leader walked into I.R.S. headquarters without an appointment and got in to see Mr. Goldberg, the nation's top tax official. Mr. Miscavige offered to call a halt to Scientology's suits against the I.R.S. in exchange for tax exemptions.

There is the official statement of the IRS, which must be stated as such in the article, but there are also the findings of the New York Times, which we must present as well in the article. Maybe "allegedly" is not a good word, I don't know. How about "The New York Times found..." or "The New York Times determined..." Raymond Hill (talk) 04:16, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

I concur with Bravehartbear. We are giving the NYT "findings" full weight, while ignoring the official IRS statements, which in part address these concerns. Jayen466 13:50, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

Well, WP:RS states:

News reporting is distinct from opinion pieces. Opinion pieces are only reliable for statements as to the opinion of their authors... Opinion pieces are also distinguished between those representing the opinion of the news organization's editorial board and those representing the opinion of one author (or a few co-authors.)

What I see is that the first part of the article in question where the autor gives his conclusions are based on the author's opinion that is contracdicted by the facts that he is presenting. What I see is that this article is a mixture of opinion and facts. We must separate the opinions out and stick with the facts. The facts are the only valueable part of this article. Bravehartbear (talk) 04:27, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

Do you have a link or source to that "The official statement from IRS officials"? AndroidCat (talk) 07:25, 18 December 2008 (UTC) Puzzling Journey, right? (Best not to use ref links in Talk pages.) I'll review it. AndroidCat (talk) 07:29, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

The person who alleged the impromptu meeting took place was none other David Miscavige himself in a presentation to members, followed by Church of Scientology publications. Later, after the leak, contradictory statements were issued by Church of Scientology officials saying the meeting never took place. It seems that the problem with reliability lies with Scientology and David Miscavige. AndroidCat (talk) 11:41, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

• Frantz, Douglas (1997-03-19). "Scientology Denies an Account Of an Impromptu I.R.S. Meeting". New York Times. Retrieved 2008-12-15. {{cite web}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)

Sounds like the original Scientology article featured an impressive amount of spin. :-) Without actually saying so, it certainly creates the impression that Mr Miscavige was taken to see the IRS man right away. A good example of why we shouldn't use Scientology's primary sources either. Jayen466 13:01, 20 December 2008 (UTC)

Sorry I was not talking about the meeting but other conclusions that NY Times stated like what took place in the meeting when this meeting was private, I never argued there was a meeting. Bravehartbear (talk) 16:18, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

More Scientology hystory

The last sentence is incorrect IAW CNN

the Church of Scientology consequently bought the Cult Awareness Network in bankruptcy court, and now operates it as a promotional arm for the Church of Scientology itself

CAN was purchased by a Scientologists not the CoS and "now operates it as a promotional arm for the Church of Scientology" is pure opinion. The other references for this sentence are not reliable neither. Bravehartbear (talk) 02:49, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

Agreed, not accurate. Scientologist Steven L. Hayes bought CAN's "logo and other appurtenances", Scientologist Gary Beeny got CAN files, and operations of CAN was turned over to "Scientology-backed group, the Foundation for Religious Freedom," as reported in Ron Russell's "Scientology Revenge." Raymond Hill (talk) 04:31, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

Also, as I said before, the characterization of the New CAN as a "promotional arm for the Church of Scientology" is contradicted by more recent academic sources. See [34] (James R. Lewis, 2005), [35] (Anson Shupe, 2006). These opinions should be given due weight as per WP:RS#Scholarship: (1), they are more up to date, (2), these are scholarly sources. Jayen466 13:34, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

We really, really need to be careful here. James R. Lewis is one of only a few self-identified scholars of new religious movements, and as far as I can find is largely regarded as a cult apologist in the much wider field of religious academia. We should not be limiting ourselves to religious scholarship by this small group of individuals. A lot of religious scholars have written about Scientology -- and about CAN -- and picking Mr. Lewis as a source, considering the controversies around him (and for that matter, around Anson Shupe; he's got a similar reputation), seems unlikely to result in a balanced article. Why not track down noted scholars in the wider religious field and use them as sources instead? --GoodDamon 14:47, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

That's plain bollocks: Not even Benjamin Zablocki, Stephen A. Kent and the like employ the term "cult apologist" and Lewis is considered one of the few (there are maybe about 50-100 scholarly sources on SCN) scholarly experts on Scientology. Just because some ant-cult crusaders try to smear anybody, who does not express their, I say it mildly, "point of view", does not mean that we cannot draw on academically published sources. Fossa_?! 15:08, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

I didn't say Kent or Zablocki use the term. I was using the term as a general descriptor, after reading about Mr. Lewis here on Wikipedia and in a few news articles. Kent and Zablocki would be two examples of religious scholars who don't hold Mr. Lewis in high regard, but the term was my own. --GoodDamon 16:50, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

Mr Lewis does not have a crystal ball, and frankly, looking at the world's history of minorities accused of crimes, I would prefer someone who once in a while errs in favour of the minority to someone who generally assumes guilt and errs in that. This is consistent with the fundamental principle of our legal system: innocent until proven guilty; better to let one murderer go free than to execute one innocent man. I don't believe Lewis claimed AUM were innocent once there was conclusive evidence to tie them to the attacks. Again: it is the scholarly community that determines an author's standing. It is absolutely ludicrous if people here argue that an academic who has won prizes for his work, whose works are required reading in university syllabuses, and who is published by the most prestigious university press in the world should not be a reliable source worth citing. I shall bring this up in the arbitration; I have no desire to argue such basic points time and time again. "I don't know about Oxford University Press and Routledge, they may be cult apologists, but Operation Clambake has a very interesting essay here from an ex-scientologist ..." There comes a point when such contributions become actual disruptive editing and should be treated as such. Jayen466 17:25, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

GoodDamon, note that I am not accusing you of citing Clambake essays. I know you don't do that. But I am sure if we watch this talk page for a couple of weeks, someone will come along ... Cheers, Jayen466 17:31, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

Thank you, I was about to respond to that rather vehemently, and I appreciate you taking note of it. I'm happy to concede the point on James R. Lewis' academic credentials after digging through how much he has published in more detail. I have to admit to some personal qualms about him; he routinely accepts money from the groups he writes about. But that's not for me to judge him on, certainly not in Wikipedia. I'm of a mind to ask at WP:RS/N, just to have some outside perspectives on him. --GoodDamon 17:49, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

With all due respect, I would suggest that you haven't got a clue what you are talking about, GoodDamon. James R. Lewis is the editor of an upcoming Oxford University Press volume on Scientology. Oxford University Press is not a fringe publishing outfit. I believe they pick and choose their authors quite carefully. Check how many University Press publications and peer-reviewed papers the guys who call Lewis a "cult apologist" have to their credit. Jayen466 15:33, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

No, Oxford University Press is not a fringe publishing outfit, but you can't cherry-pick with them, either. They also publish works by Richard Dawkins, certainly a notable scholar and scientist. Care to take a look at how this extremely notable, scholarly source describes Scientology? OUP publishes works from all sorts of perspectives. --GoodDamon 16:50, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

If you care to look in which fields Dawkins has been published by OUP, you will find that the fields concerned are biology and science writing. James R. Lewis may have opinions on genetics; that does not make him a RS in our article on it, even though he is published by Oxford University Press. Cheers, Jayen466 17:28, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

Fair enough, although I would argue that Dawkins is well on his way to establishing himself as a contrarian religious scholar himself. --GoodDamon 17:49, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

More like he has already established himself as an anti-religious quack, see also http://www.lrb.co.uk/v28/n20/eagl01_.html which summarizes Dawkins "accomplishments" in this field as entertaining as correct. Fossa_?! 18:12, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

This is a typical mistake, the tying of a reputation to a person, rather than to a type of source. Has this not (yet) been rectified in WP:RS? Dawkins has not (and, I take I wild guess) will never publish anything reputable about Scientology, but he did AFAIK on population genetics. Fossa_?! 18:10, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

Time did a massive expose on CAN and how scientology literally came up with an organized strategy to bankrupt it and then buy it and use it for thier own purposes. Think of it this way, If I want to sell something that is considerd ilegal but it sells really well I could just buy out the org that decides weather or not this thing I want to sell is ilegal. Boom Motive and you got opertunity, resulting from direct contact with scientology no less. It's really obvious and if that is not enough many scholars and the guy in time as well refer to CAN as a part of scientology now. 67.84.159.28 (talk) 15:55, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

The Time article is more than ten years old, right? I do not think what some reporter 10 years ago thought was going to happen is more reliable than what scholars have observed happening over the past 10 years. Btw, neither Lewis nor Shupe deny that Scientologists have a major role in running the New CAN. They are merely commenting on what the New CAN is actually doing. Jayen466 16:13, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

WP:UNDUE, WP:RS issues in Celebrities section

I have a big problem with the last paragraph of the article, starting with the words "Andre Tabayoyon, a former Scientologist". The whole paragraph is WP:UNDUE and trivia. "Ploughing meadows." Please!! In addition, almost all of it is cited to a primary source (an affidavit) hosted on an attack site (whyaretheydead.net). How do we know the affidavit has been correctly represented on this extremely POV site? Even conceding that it "probably" is, why are we mentioning it in the main article on Scientoloy without any evidence having been supplied that this is an issue that published secondary sources consider a major aspect of Scientology, important enough to be mentioned in our main article on it? Jayen466 13:58, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

Agreed. Secondary sources need to be found, or it goes. Except in rare, carefully considered situations, we shouldn't be citing anything but reliable news and scholarly sources. I have yet to see an argument that Xenu.net or whyaretheydead.net pass muster as scholarly sources. Neither belong in any section of this article except perhaps under the External Links section. --GoodDamon 14:40, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

They are against Scientology, thus they must be solidly valid sources. Heck, the National Enquirer would become a reputable source, if he were to publish an article on Scientology's attempts to clone Hitler funded by E.T.'s in the North Korean government. Fossa_?! 14:59, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

I am not entirly sure that scientology would want to clone hitler, I mean they were nazis in the past but now they are beyond that stage. I understand your humour and your frustration but what alot of us need to keep in mind is the colossal importance this article hold to it, not just with recent even like the protests but that this article is under scrutiny unlike most others in the cateogory of religion. Xenu.net and whyweprotest.net both has original sources (actual leaked scientology documents) that for obvious reasons can not be used here until they appear in a court case or are referenced on the news or some other secondary source. however it is still in my opinion a great idea to keep your eyes on both the sources you CAN use and the source you wish you could use but can't because very soon these two things will be one and the same. The media is really trotting along with this at a fearsomly brisk pace and soon alot of the stuff about the clave camps and the child labour will be in secondary sources and even then third sources.67.84.159.28 (talk) 15:52, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

Fine, let us also keep our eyes on sources we can use: [36][37] Jayen466 16:32, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

well, for a supposed cult (and this coming from someone who pretty much despises scientology - but truth be told) they 've pretty much let you do whatever you want with their entry here, I mean the quality of the sources and the gossipy tone of this part is not something we usually see at wikipedia. Had they been this superevil cult I am sure they 'd find some way to cencor you guys here, pretty ironic really. 91.132.224.196 (talk) 12:05, 20 December 2008 (UTC)