Talk:Scientology

Legal status

Is it appropriate to designate a legal status in this article? It seems to me that the Scientology article should be dealing with the beliefs and practices as they pertain to followers worldwide, not just a single organization (such as the CoS or CSI which may be based in a single country). Since different countries have often classified Scientology in very different ways, it seems like designating Scientology itself as non-profit would be incorrect. Wutudidthere...isawit (talk) 09:45, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

This is a good point. Cirt (talk) 10:33, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

well your correct, there is few things non-profit about scientology. For the most part it is a business. The gratuitous ammounts of money they save by useing slave labour to refurnish and build new facilitys is astronomical. Forgive me for sounding evil but you really got to hand it to them. I think hubbard said something about the best slave or prisioner being the one that thinks he is free. Something like that and he is right. If you look at how much the sea org people get paid to work from 7am to 11pm you would see its only 15euros a week. It is even worse in the US.130.156.142.240 (talk) —Preceding undated comment was added at 17:55, 13 November 2008 (UTC).

Agreed. The article needs a serious revamp of less Scientology doctrine, and more actual info. I would say sum most of the article down to a single section summarizing their beliefs. I can't believe that the church itself isn't actually writing this article. I've got a feeling we're going to need semi-pro status on it to make a real article out of it (I'd really love to see a section detailing their criminal exploits, like Operation Snow White, for example). KriticKill (talk) 15:29, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

There's a whole article on Operation Snow White. AndroidCat (talk) 01:30, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Should the section on legality include the case of Van Dyun v. Home Office, Case 41/74, [1974] ECR 1337? This is where the UK government rejected leave for a Dutch woman to enter the UK to take up a job as a secretary for the Church of Scientology UK. When the case was taken to the European Court of Justice the UK argued that activities of the Church of Scientology were "socially harmful" and it was reasonable to limit her freedom of movement on that basis. sb742 (talk) 16:15, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

Neutrality and inclusiveness

The unfortunate aspect about the Scientology Corporation's foundings and history is that it literally takes several books to cover all of it, all the crimes, human rights abuses, civil rights abuses, motivations, behavior, once-secret bait-and-switch bunko scams and everything else.

Wikipedia articles can't be nearly as inclusive as everyone (other than Scientology crime bosses and ringleaders) would like them to be because then the Wiki entry would literally be a thousand pages long.

I mention this because someone claiming to be a Scientology customer complained about Scientology being a "danger cult" -- which it is and which everyone recognizes as being factual and which belongs in any article about Scientology.

A reasonable solution would be to enumerate all of the massive exposures of Scientology's racketeering crimes, human rights abuses, and what not as covered in the numerous books, magazines, and newspaper articles which have been published since the 1960's. Neutrality means that one covers the truth and does not pander to the wishes of criminals, after all, but enumerating all the mountain of court documentation and the pile of books written by law enforcement, health officials, one-time ringleaders, and previous customers of the crime syndicate would help. Fredric Rice (talk) 23:53, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not a forum. Do you have a suggestion for improving the article? --GoodDamon 23:55, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Are you fucking retarded? Everything they said was about the article. If you're aspiring to be a wikipedia policy toughguy, you have just epically failed; congratulations. 96.237.59.92 (talk) 21:53, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

I think he is makeing a suggestion. He is basically asking people to do what I am doing. Summerising some of the more major crimes of scientology, source and cite them and then put them into the main article. This is what I am doing. The best part is NOBODY can dispute something about scientology if it is in L ron's own hand writting as for example his journal entries are. The ones showing him as a flamming racist. Nutrality actually means no shifting to biases of one side or the other, listing the good and the bad. So far the article has alot of nutrality but lacks insight on the darker more dangurous sides of the "church". Aaron Bongart (talk) 17:18, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

There is very little good side to Scientology. In the interest of neutrality, however, someone might want to note the considerable anti-drug work and funding that they do.KriticKill (talk) 17:12, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

You are aware that much of that work is against psychiatric drugs? I'm no fan of Ritalin or our society's drug-first mentality, but Scientologists literally don't believe a paranoid schizophrenic should be treated with anti-psychotic drugs. That's not exactly a point in Scientology's favor. --GoodDamon 17:56, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

There are separate articles about Narconon and CCHR, which are already linked from the Scientology article. I agree that their efforts should be described as "anti drug" rather than "anti drug abuse". Don't agree that depriving people of medication for reasons of pseudoscience counts as a good point.MartinPoulter (talk) 18:22, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

Yes yes, valid points all but, not all of the people in thoses rehabs need drugs, scientology does do some good. Albeit the methods of treatment in narconon are very bizzare and ritualist like pretending your inside the ash tray and then tahnking the ashtray. thats one of the things you hear about them doing. It's ironic that scientologists have no problem smokeing even though smokes are loaded with drugs, not to mention adictive and cancer causing ones. However hubbard DID say scientologists are immune to cancer if they are clear and up. So yeah deffinatly specific drug use rather then abuse, and also please try to point out the positive stuff little that there is, if only for the sake of nutrality. The activist in me wants scandal and controversy but the autistic in me was pure unbias and neutral facts. Aaron Bongart (talk) 17:31, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

Scientology not Church of Scientology

I'm making this comment because by reading the article about Scientology one may assume that Scientology and the Church of Scientology are the same thing. There are many people including myself that have left the Church of Scientology because -in short- they don't believe that L. Ron Hubbard's Scientology is taught and applied in the Church of Scientology.

To be fair, things that pertain to the Church of Scientology should be moved to a separate Wikipedia section. And the Church may be mentioned along with the other splinter groups that are mentioned in the Scientology page. Illusionist1 (talk) 23:32, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

The church is by far the largest organization in the world promoting Scientology (or a version of it, if you prefer), so any article that gives an overview of Scientology is necessarily going to touch on the church more than the splinter groups. Remember, this article isn't just about the Scientology belief system (that would be Scientology beliefs and practices), it's also about the scandals surrounding Scientology, the reactions of governments and other religions to it, etc. It's a summary style article that provides a bird's-eye-view of a lot of topics. --GoodDamon 23:57, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

This article is about the overall organization of Scientology (of which the Church of Scientology is only a part) as well as the belief system of Scientology. AndroidCat (talk) 05:53, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

Scientology was not 'created'

Scientology was not 'created'. You would not say that Christianity was created by Jesus Christ. You also would not say that the notion of God was created by a group of ignorant Egyptians and perpetuated by Jews. Similarly the jobs that a person has done are not relevant to describing something that they have discovered. We don't describe Christianity as: A body of beliefs and related practices created by a jewish Israeli criminal and carpenter Jesus Christ. The practices of Scientology were discovered by L Ron Hubbard. It would be objective to change the first sentence to: "Scientology is a body of beliefs and related practices written down by L. Ron Hubbard." If it is relevant it could carry on; "L. Ron Hubbard was the first practitioner of Scientology, he was also a science fiction writer." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.238.176.41 (talk) 21:17, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

WP:RS/WP:V secondary sources to back up this notion? Cirt (talk) 21:47, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

and I would certainly like to see evidence of it existing before the birth of Hubbard. --Rodhullandemu 22:27, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

Hubbard may not have been aware, but the word "Scientology" was used prior to his definition of it, for entirely different usage, back in 1871. Cirt (talk) 22:37, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

Christianity wasn't created by Jesus of Nazareth, it evolved (and continues to evolve) into various divergent sects based on the interpretations of his alleged life and teachings by successive generations of followers. Scientology was obviously created by LRH over the course of his lifetime. His life is well documented and, unlike Jesus, he explicitly wrote down his ideas. To say he "discovered" any religious truths while fucked up on amphetamines (or listening to his young son's rambling after forcing him to take speed) is to endorse the teachings of the Church of Scientology. Wormwoodpoppies (talk) 22:02, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

The IP address editor needs to be aware that Wikipedia's core policies and guidelines require that the vast majority of its content be derived from sources that meet the criteria established in WP:RS, that those sources be verifiable per WP:V, that the majority of those sources match the majority viewpoint, per WP:WEIGHT, and that the material be neutral in tone, per WP:NPOV (of which WP:WEIGHT is a sub-policy). Now, the vast majority of sources for material that meets these Wikipedia standards are overwhelmingly negative about Scientology. They establish a few things that most Scientologists would probably take issue with:

• That Scientology was invented by L. Ron Hubbard
• That Scientology is largely regarded as a cult
• That Scientology is abusive towards its members
• That as you progress through Scientology, you learn about Xenu and the rest of the so-called "space opera"

And so on. These are no doubt regarded as little more than lies by most Scientologists. But the thing is, Wikipedia makes no judgment as to whether they are lies or not. As far as Wikipedia is concerned, the secondary sources it relies on have already determined what is and is not true, and there is no need for Wikipedia to further vet it.

If most of the material about Scientology available from secondary sources were overwhelmingly positive and accepted Hubbard at his word -- that he "discovered" Scientology -- then this article would reflect that. --GoodDamon 00:42, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

Er, I somehow feel that this "majority rules" complex isn't constructive. Who's to say that Christianity wasn't created? It might have been. The majority of people might think otherwise; but, as you may recall, the majority of people used to believe the Sun was at the center of the Universe. Aren't sources required to be capable of proving ideas rather than simply being required to say something is right or wrong? Mind you, this is what it sounds like you're implying. Zencyde (talk) 13:32, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

The point is not whether Wikipedia reflects the views of the majority--its whether we reflect the verifiable majority. Although, it's often been said that if Wikipedia were around when the general assumption was that the world is flat, that is what would have been reflected on the Earth article. Wikipedia is NOT an outlet for truth, Wikipedia is a source of verifiable knowledge. All else is original research, which is not encyclopedic. ←Spidern→ 14:27, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

GoodDamon was just explaining the rules of Wikipedia. For me (from a Scientific Rationalism perspective) the No Original Research rule has been the hardest to get used to, for the sort of reasons you talk about, but it it were relaxed, every kind of crackpot would be editing their theories into articles, saying "just because every academic expert says this is rubbish, doesn't mean it is". That would be a disaster, so I'm persuaded the rule is a very good idea on the whole.MartinPoulter (talk) 14:28, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

Christianity may well have been created (although in many respects its more like an extension of Judaism), but the fact is no one has yet uncovered enough evidence to prove or disprove that. The sources in the Wikipedia articles for Christianity and its related articles reflect that. On the other hand, we know that Scientology was created by Hubbard. There's no mystical Scientology tradition that existed in mystery and shadow for 1500 or whatever years, that Hubbard 'discovered'. There are no archaeological digs to uncover the history of Scientology, we have and we know DEFINITIVELY with sources to back it up, that Scientology was created by Hubbard in the early 50's. There is no argument, and if you believe that Scientology existed before Hubbard then I have some swampland in Florida I wanna sell you. —Preceding unsigned comment added by KriticKill (talk • contribs) 15:46, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

Scientology Ceremonies?

I have removed the following section from the article. I have seen no academic or news mention of any of these ceremonies. The fact that the only sources used here are CESNUR and the Church of Scientology is concerning. Can anyone find any reliable secondary sources to back any of this knowledge up? ←Spidern→ 08:12, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

I've tried googling it, and I've taken a look through the religious references I have on hand, but I can't find anything about it. As we're not trying to reproduce in whole or in part any Scientology literature, I don't particularly mind if primary sources like those below are removed from the article. --GoodDamon 18:05, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

Spidern, you removed a core practice of Scientology from the "Scientology" article. The RS, Régis Dericquebourg is "head lecturer in social psychology at the University of Lille" [5] which makes him a far better source than most of the other "authorities" in this article. Shutterbug (talk) 21:06, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

The text you restored included two links to a primary source, and the CESNUR source alone -- which is of questionable validity as far as reliability is concerned -- does not support the content. --GoodDamon 21:13, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

CESNUR is not the source, but a scholar paper by Regis Dericquebourg supported by CESNUR. What yardstick are you using? Shutterbug (talk) 21:17, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

What do you mean by the "yardstick" comment? I don't follow. In any event, my primary point was that the link didn't support the text. If Regis Dericquebourg is a noted religious scholar, I don't see anything specifically wrong with using a CESNUR-hosted courtesy link, although the disclaimers about its usage at the top lead me to wonder if there might not be a better article elsewhere. --GoodDamon 22:55, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

I don't see anything wrong with using a CESNUR courtesy link either. That is why I disagreed when you removed it. The "yardstick" question meant what is your measure for a "reliable" source. When is a source reliable? I go as far as to say that private pages are NEVER a reliable source. Shutterbug (talk) 00:15, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

What's a "private page?" If you're referring to a non-news blog or something like that, I agree. But a "private page" can be something like that, or something like Rotten Tomatoes, which is now arguably as influential and respected in the world of movie reviews as Roger Ebert's review column. --GoodDamon 00:50, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

• Re CESNUR ... this Oxford University Press publication lists the CESNUR site as a recommended research source, along with peer-reviewed journals. Here another example of the academic reception of CESNUR. Hundreds of scholarly publications cite cesnur.org. Coverage in relevant literature: [6]. If anyone doubts the status of CESNUR as a reliable source, let's take this to RS/N. Jayen466 02:30, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

Ceremonies

First version: The Church of Scientology provides Sunday services as well as social ceremonies for marriage, birth, and death that are performed by an ordained Scientology minister. Most, if not all, of the actual ceremonies used were written by L. Ron Hubbard and are collected in the book, Ceremonies of the Church of Scientology. At a funeral service, the minister speaks directly to the departing spirit and grants forgiveness for anything the deceased has done so he can begin life anew.

Second version: The Church of Scientology provides Sunday services as well as social ceremonies for marriage, birth, and death that are performed by an ordained Scientology minister. Most, if not all, of the actual ceremonies used were written by L. Ron Hubbard and are collected in the book, Ceremonies of the Church of Scientology. At a funeral service, the minister speaks directly to the departing spirit and grants forgiveness for anything the deceased has done so he can begin life anew.

• No. Any discussion should take place here first and only go to RS/N if unresolved once the various positions have been clarified here. Dumping unformed discussions directly into noticeboards that roll over every week could be seen as an attempt to bury any real discussion. That tactic is getting old. AndroidCat (talk) 06:33, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
  • My issue with the source is that I can not find a single secondary source to corroborate the information. Were that requirement fulfilled, I would be more inclined to include the paragraph in the article. Furthermore, the only mention that I can find for Regis' background (aside from a brief mention on hrwf.net) is on four Scientology-owned sites plus a Scientology-slanted blog. ←Spidern→ 12:03, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

• • • Other sources documenting that there are such ceremonies are not difficult to find. See this US Army Manual or this description of Sunday services etc. More such sources can be found. You may find it useful to use http://books.google.com/ (google books) for your searches. We can cut back on some of the detail if we find it is not covered in secondary sources. Jayen466 12:39, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
      • Thanks for the sources. I had checked scholar but neglected to check books. ←Spidern→ 13:27, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

• I'm not sure that military organization guides should be seen as authoritative. They have no particular interest in recognizing or dismissing the beliefs of men and women in their commands. (If it helped morale, they'd don colanders and do noodley touch-assists for the FSM.) Until recently, the US Navy was publishing a Scientology section on their site that was sometimes used as a reference here–except that it was copied from the Ontario Consultants on Religious Tolerance site, and, at least the most recent version, directly written by Scientology. (There was also a frequently overlooked disclaimer on the US Navy site.) AndroidCat (talk) 04:59, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

I think the above will do to document that such ceremonies exist and have been commented upon by secondary sources. Jayen466 11:20, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

Net wars

A lot of the most bitter fighting and bitching around Scientology happens on the net. As Wikipedians, we are all likely to use net sources more than most people. Therefore, for an outside perspective:

• This is a page of a book by Eugene V. Gallagher, who's a board member of the American Academy of Religion. It provides an overview of the literature on Scientology, including a humorous critique of Melton's book, and it also puts the Internet controversy around Scientology into some kind of perspective. Please take the time to have a look at this. (And note that this esteemed and widely respected scholar has no compunction about giving convenience links to neuereligion.de in his book.)
• From the same book: an overview of the netwars, written from the viewpoint of a scholar standing outside the feud

Hope we can make use of this. Cheers, Jayen466 20:32, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

Wikiscanner revelations

• New online tool traces Wikipedia edits: PCs in Scientology officialdom removed criticism in church's entry, MSNBC, Associated Press, Brian Bergstein, August 15, 2007
• Wal-Mart, CIA, ExxonMobil Changed Wikipedia Entries, August 16, 2007, Fox News, Rhys Blakely, Fox News Network, LLC.
• Brown, Janelle (1998-07-15). "A Web of their own". Salon. Salon.com. Retrieved 2006-06-21.
• Scientology v. the Internet: Free Speech & Copyright Infringement on the Information Super-Highway, Skeptic vol. 3, no. 3, 1995, pp. 35-41, Jim Lippard and Jeff Jacobsen.
• Bjorhus, Jennifer (1995-08-26). "Scientology Critics Claim Harassment For Using Internet". Seattle Times. Retrieved 2008-10-14.
• Ingram, Matthew (January 18, 2008). "Scientology vs. the Internet, part XVII". Globe and Mail: Ingram 2.0. CTVglobemedia Publishing Inc. Retrieved 2008-01-19. {{cite news}}: Check date values in: |date= (help); Cite has empty unknown parameter: |coauthors= (help)
• Taylor, Dennis (June 4, 1999). "Church of Scientology vs. Amazon.com: Tax-exempt cult shouldn't be allowed to copyright doctrine". Silicon Valley / San Jose Business Journal. American City Business Journals, Inc. Retrieved 2008-11-25.
• EFF "Legal Cases - Church of Scientology" Archive, Electronic Frontier Foundation

Hope we can make use of some of this info as well. Cheers, Cirt (talk) 20:47, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

• Let's make sure to get scholarly opinions reflected that comment on all of these various controversies. Where they are available, we should not bypass them to write our own conclusions and set our own priorities; we should take our cues from the secondary literature where it is available. Jayen466 20:54, 25 November 2008 (UTC)
  • "Wikipedia and the art of censorship" -- Computers with IP addresses traced to the Church of Scientology were used to expunge critical paragraphs about the cult's world-wide operations. - The Independent. This type of troubling behavior from this organization should be taken into account when discussing these issues. Cirt (talk) 20:58, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

Not to forget the reliable source "Associated Press" of 24 November 2008[7] stating: "The Church of Scientology was established in 1945". Obviously true, AP reported it and they are they know what they are talking about when it comes to religions. Let's change it right away. /irony. Cirt, this thread is about increasing the quality of the sources used. I can't see how to achieve that with day-to-day news sources. Some journalists's opinion or a quote of a axe-to-grind ex-scientologist in a newspaper is the lower end of WP:RS standards. Shutterbug (talk) 22:52, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

Comment: FWIW, as reported on in multiple news sources, the info as identified by Wikiscanner tracks back to 205.227.165.244. Here is an edit made by that IP. Other editors can draw their own conclusions. Cirt (talk) 23:08, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

205.227.165.244, was the IP for a "Symantec Web Filter Proxy" owned by the Church of Scientology, several years ago, and used by hundreds if not thousands of Scientology members, in Church-owned hotels/pensions etc.. It was a moral safety measure and gave off warnings when porn sites etc were about to be accessed. I have not heard of it for about a year and I doubt it still exists. It was pretty slow. Having said that, what is missing in this presentation is that all substantial IP edits have stopped several years ago and did take place at a time when Wikipedia did not have the NPOV/COI rule yet.Shutterbug (talk) 23:26, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

Claims such as these given by the Church of Scientology do not appear to be backed up by any hard evidence, unfortunately. Cirt (talk) 01:36, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

Repeatedly referring to Shutterbug as the Church of Scientology is argumentative and serves no useful purpose. The Arbcom never established that she was an official voice of the Church or that any of the editors that shared an IP proxy were acting improperly. All that was established by the Arbcom was that there was sufficient ambiguity among that specific group of users that they were to be considered as one editor for any purpose involving consensus-building. It is entirely appropriate for Shutterbug to edit articles here provided she, like all of us, work within the policies. Calling her "the Church of Scientology" would be no more appropriate, Cirt, that if I consistently referred to you as "hero of Anonymous". Which I will not. So please stop that; it is unbecoming of the project and of you personally and please accord her the respect any good-faith editor is entitled to here. As I will accord that respect to editors that clearly edit from their own overpowering point-of-view yet endeavor to remain within the policies and frameworks of this project. --Justallofthem (talk) 02:18, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

The facts as shown by Wikiscanner and 205.227.165.244 speak for themselves. Cirt (talk) 03:12, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

I was not previously aware of this, and frankly it's troubling. As Shutterbug previously edited under an acronym for the Church of Scientology, I find myself suddenly concerned about conflict-of-interest issues. There are already obvious single-purpose account issues. I'm going to back out of this article for a little while to review editing histories, but I'm inclined to file an incident report of some kind. Frankly, it is improper to be editing these articles in any sort of official Church capacity. --GoodDamon 04:44, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

Being a relative newcomer to Wikipedia, I am not as familiar with the processes here as some of you are. But I was just looking up Requests for comment, and considered that it may be appropriate to get an outsider's opinion in this matter. Do any of you think this would be helpful? ←Spidern→ 05:03, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

ARIN's record for that net block. [8] The story of "used by hundreds if not thousands of Scientology members, in Church-owned hotels/pensions etc.." is exceedingly implausible. Many sites publish their access logs (including IP address) where Google can find them, so 205.227.165.244 should turn up in large numbers of Google results if that were true. It doesn't. Instead, it's a small number of Wikipedia-connected results. Please leave these fairy tales for people who don't understand the Internet. AndroidCat (talk) 06:14, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

And positing that the CofS would make their access logs public knowledge is no more than another fairy tale that you seem to be promoting, AC. The fact that a number of Scientology organizations and facilities worldwide used a common proxy should certainly be understandable to someone as net-savvy as you, AC. This is old news, review the Arbcom. Shutterbug is considered to have some undefined connection to the Church by virtue of her prior use of a Church-owned server and is one of a group of users that need to be careful to not appear to act in concert. That is it. Other than that she is not barred from editing and should be accorded the respect any editor here deserves, including not playing games with her handle. --Justallofthem (talk) 12:35, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

Not the CoS logs, the logs of all the sites that these mythical thousands of people were accessing on the Internet. AndroidCat (talk) 12:54, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

Ah, well, I never tried to present myself as more net-savvy than you :) However, I doubt that most organizations publish their logs, why would anyone with the least bit of interest in privacy issues do that? I don't buy it as proving your point. In any event, my point stands as to the outcome of the arbcom and the restrictions, such as they are, that Shutterbug may be subject to. Other than that, she is due the respect any of us deserve and is as entitled to her POV as any of us and to not have someone that should know better play games with her username. That caught my eye. Other than that, carry on! --Justallofthem (talk) 14:31, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

Justallofthem, what AndroidCat was referring to was third party websites who usually inadvertently get their web stats indexed by search engines. When googling the aforementioned IP, one finds mention in only three such logs (1, 2, and 3). So the line of reasoning AndroidCat was following is that if there were in fact, hundreds of users on this web proxy, there would be more results showing up on stats pages. For example, take a look at this DOW Chemical Company IP and see the results on web statistics pages. It's not always that way, it's just a common tendency. ←Spidern→ 15:34, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

Let's look at another random WP article. Here are the WikiScanner results for Israel. The top IP is "Cogeco Cable Solutions (St. Catharines, Ontario)" - 24.150.168.211. If you enter that in google, you get this – zilch. Yet Cogeco is a reasonably big Canadian Internet service provider, certainly used by "hundreds of users". The next IP on the Wikiscanner list for that article is 212.179.96.55. Again, nothing in google. The next IP has one hit. What is this fuss about? It's been common knowledge since the arbcom last year that Shutterbug and others had edited via a CoS-owned Internet connection. The arbcom remedies didn't say there was anything wrong with that. So why is it even being brought up now? Jayen466 12:20, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

You are incorrectly interpreting the argument. The premise is that for corporations that use a static-ip web proxy (see wikiscanner for some examples) for hundreds (or more) of users, one tends to find a pattern of google results on web statistics pages. You didn't choose a corporation, or someone who purports to grant web access to hundreds of people from a single IP. Instead you chose one cable subscriber out of potentially thousands of residential subscribers. The size of an ISP has no bearing in GoodDamon's argument (it actually weakens yours, considering that there are more dynamic IPs to choose from and less chance statistically over dynamic re-assignment which will lead to it showing in a webstat page). ←Spidern→ 14:06, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

Well, bear with me. I was under the impression that an ISP IP address such as the Cogeco address mentioned above would also be shared by a number of users. No? According to Wikiscanner, the IP range of the LA Church of Scientology International is 205.227.165.0-255. That is, 256 IP addresses. If you just enter the first three segments of that address range – i.e. 205.227.165 – in google, you still get all of 7 results. You have been saying, if other people had used the same IP address as Shutterbug, the address should be showing up in stats all over the place. What this google result shows, however, is that even if you widen the search to the entire IP address space of the LA CoS, you still don't get anything substantial showing in google. See what I mean? Surely all the other Scientologists besides Shutterbug are using their computers and those 256 IP addresses for something in LA, yet nothing shows. You can try the same thing with any individual IP address within the CoS range – i.e. [9], [10], [11], [12], [13], etc. Jayen466 17:14, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

(arbitrary outdent) For the record, I'm not assuming bad faith at all, I'm simply explaining how your interpretation of the argument is flawed.

1. Yes, cogentco addresses and other such ISPs have dynamic IP reassignment, which recycles old IP addresses. Genereally, however, larger ISPs have larger ranges. Thus, a higher ratio of available IPs to subscribers, lessening the possibility that individual IPs were logged under multiple web service logs.
2. The ip range you specified doesn't mean that all 254 (205.227.165.0 and 205.227.165.255 are reserved) ip addresses are in use. It's simply a placeholder.
3. A google search for any class c range (x.x.x) will exclude individual results for class d ranges in most cases (x.x.x.x). (note that when searching for 205.227.165.244, more results show than 205.227.165) This is an issue of google syntax, as google treats sequences of numbers in the same way as words, no wildcards implicit.
4. The fact that more results do not show up is precisely why Shutterbug's suggestion of "hundreds if not thousands" of users fails.
5. You arbitrarily assume that all Scientologists in the LA area use the IP range which is the assigned to Scientology-owned servers at their own properties--but the properties of individual Scientologists contributing on their own time are not necessarily behind this range. They are more likely to have cable or DSL connections. Even if they were using the internet from behind this range, if what Shutterbug said is correct they'd only be under one IP, which is their web proxy.

So to summarize what the above evidence suggests, it appears that only a limited number of individuals directly involved with the Church of Scientology (behind the proxy of ws.churchofscientology.org) are making edits under that IP address. Not "hundreds" or even on that order of magnitude. ←Spidern→ 17:56, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

(1) ok. (2) ok. Some clearly are in use though, and where they show up, they typically show up with one google hit. I checked about a quarter of them. :-) (3) I noticed that; this is why I gave individual search results for class d ranges as well. (4) I still doubt that this follows. I am currently on an AOL IP. According to our page on those, each AOL IP is "shared with hundreds or thousands of other AOL users". Still, if I enter my own current IP in google, I get zero search hits. Yet hundreds or thousands of users will have used this IP before me, and will have been online with it. Here is an example of an AOL IP, from one of the ranges given on the linked AOL page, that has all of 3 google hits. Here is another one with 5 google hits. These too are addresses that have been used by hundreds of Internet users. (5) No, I did not assume that. But the LA CoS building is substantial, and I assume that there is a large number of people using its IT facilities on a daily basis. Yet I am unable to find evidence of large numbers of stat records for any of the other IP addresses. (We can take this to your or my talk page if you want to discuss this further.) Cheers, Jayen466 18:27, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

---

For newer editors' convenience, the previous arbitration case is here. As for myself, I welcome Shutterbug's presence here, as long as she edits in good faith, brings reliable sources and works towards consensus on the talk page (rather than edit-warring, which does not help anyone).

It is not surprising to get the odd Scientologist editing here from a Scientology building. As in the case of the other 20 organisations that the Independent article reports as having edited WP articles related to them from official IP addresses – these included the CIA, FBI, the Republican Party, the Labour Party and the Israeli government as well as the Church of Scientology – I do not believe that this is some kind of official drive by the Church of Scientology to attack Wikipedia. As in these other cases, I think it more likely that these are simply individuals who want to make an article better, in this case a C-Class article that clearly still can do with improvement.

The official stance of the Church of Scientology, last time I looked, was that Wikipedia was written by teenaged geeks and beyond redemption. I'd like to prove them wrong. Cheers, Jayen466 11:35, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

Here is some additional interesting info. Cirt (talk) 13:03, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

I don't get it. There are 122 edits there, made over a three or four-year period, spanning 15 wiki projects. What do these 122 edits indicate to you? Jayen466 13:21, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

WP:SPA. Or in this case, SP-org. Cirt (talk) 13:25, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

Let's resolve the conflict.

When the article is locked, it gives us a chance to smell the roses for a while. Even so, we're going to eventually need to figure out how to resolve the conflict which lead to the editwar in the first place so we can continue to improve upon the article. So let's discuss what outstanding issues there are, and try to come to some sort of resolution or comprise. I'm requesting that all parties involved [Myself, Jayen466, Shutterbug, GoodDamon, Su-Jada, Cirt](named in chronological order of edits during editwar) who disagree with the currently locked version of the article come forward and explain precisely what they feel is not being adequately accomplished by the article. Creating a section here to accuse another editor of COI editing is out of line and unnecessary. Instead, let's focus on the content of the article, not the perceived agenda of other editors. ←Spidern→ 14:24, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

Instead, let's focus on the content of the article, not the perceived agenda of other editors. Hear Hear --Justallofthem (talk) 14:35, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

As I've said before, there is a whole genre of significant published views (mostly academic views) that are inadequately represented, or not represented at all. I have posted links to some of these above, and I'll repeat them here for convenience:

Scholarly treatments

• deChant/Jorgensen (in Neusner, Jacob (2003). World Religions In America. Westminster John Knox Press. ISBN 9780664224752.)]
• Wilson 1
• Wilson 2
• Melton: The Church of Scientology (2000, Signature Books) (I have a copy of that book and can contribute more material from it)
• Chryssides
• Gallagher
• Wallis
• Black
• Bromley & Cowan
• Lewis (ed.) (upcoming, Feb. 2009; this will be a major publication in this field)
• Corrigan, John (2008). The Oxford Handbook of Religion and Emotion. Oxford University Press US. ISBN 9780195170214. - A brief overview of Hubbard's tone scale.
• Lewis, James R. (1997). "Clearing the Planet: Utopian Idealism and the Church of Scientology". SYZYGY Journal of Alternative Religion and Culture Volume : numbers 1-2 Winter-Fall 1997. Mandeville Press. ISBN 0-914829-42-4. - a brief description of the history of Scientology and Dianetics and some of its core beliefs, and biographical data on L. Ron Hubbard.
• Introvigne, Massimo (2002). "Religious Minorities and Anti-Cult Activity in Italy in Comparative Perspective". International Perspectives on Freedom and Equality of Religious Belief. J. M. Dawson Institute of Church-State Studies, Baylor University. ISBN 929182-66-9. {{cite book}}: Check |isbn= value: length (help) - a good reference for the religious nature of Scientology and why it was given religious recognition in Italy.
• Jennifer, Robinson (2002). "Scientology (Church of Scientology)". The Encyclopedia of Cults, Sects, and New Religions. Prometheus Books. ISBN 1-57392-888-7. - Description of Dianetics, Scientology training as a religious practice, as well as some historical information.

US Army source (another source demonstrating recognition as a religion, and how it is described in government publications)

• [14]

Support materials for classroom education

• An Educator's Classroom Guide to America's Religious Beliefs and Practices – published by Libraries Unlimited as a reference work for school libraries and classroom teachers

I would really appreciate all editors' – and especially Scientologist editors' – help in researching these and similar sources to get this article into a more mainstream and balanced shape. We have plenty of capable and prolific editors who have done a very good job of researching anti-Scientology and media sources, so I do not think there is much more effort required on that front. Jayen466 15:58, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

I have the Melton book too! What about Black[15]? Bravehartbear (talk) 16:32, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

Have added Black to the list above. Jayen466 18:24, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

Per WP: Lead this is what we need to do in the lead

Introductory text

• Provide an accessible overview
  • "The lead section should briefly summarize the most important points covered in an article in such a way that it can stand on its own as a concise version of the article."

This lead does not follow the most important points covered in the article but it is selective on what points it wants to push.

• • "In general, specialized terminology should be avoided in an introduction. Where uncommon terms are essential to describing the subject, they should be placed in context, briefly defined, and linked."

If you want to use technical Scientology terms like Thetan the term should be complete explain or not used at all.

• • "The subject should be placed in a context with which many readers could be expected to be familiar."

This lead really weird and not familiar at all.

• Relative emphasis
  • "In general, the relative emphasis given to material in the lead should reflect its relative importance to the subject according to reliable sources."

It think the lead is selective on the points it wants to push and doesn't give equal access to many othher points.

• • "Avoid lengthy paragraphs and over-specific descriptions, especially if they are not central to the article as a whole."

Definetly it needs a clean up on this.

• Opening paragraph
  • "The first paragraph of the introductory text needs to unambiguously define the topic for the reader."

This lead is not unambiguously at all.

• Length
  • "The appropriate length of the lead section depends on the total length of the article. As a general guideline, the lead should be no longer than four paragraphs."

Comment by Bravehartbear (talk)

Thanks for your feedback Bravehartbear. I will address each of your points in order.

This lead does not follow the most important points covered in the article but it is selective on what points it wants to push...
It think the lead is selective on the points it wants to push and doesn't give equal access to many othher [sic] points.

What important (and sourced) points does it not cover?

If you want to use technical Scientology terms like Thetan the term should be complete explain or not used at all.

The thetan article gives the definition: "the concept of thetan (pronounced THAY-tan, /'θeɪtən/) is similar to the concept of spirit or soul found in other belief systems.", which is adequately summarized in the definition given. As it is defined sufficiently in this context, the usage is appropriate.

This lead really weird and not familiar at all...
This lead is not unambiguously [sic] at all.

What is weird about it? Can you please get very specific here so we can directly address your concerns.

Definetly it needs a clean up on this. [referring to avoiding lengthy paras]

I've copyedited this lead many times, and tried to trim it down as much as possible. I'd be interested in knowing what you think needs to be trimmed. I'm a firm believer in saying what needs to be said with as few words possible. Note also that there are only four paragraphs. ←Spidern→ 16:57, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

One thing I do when looking at paragraphs is try to assign one word or idea to them to see if the paragraph is too long or if others need to be merged. Right now, the way I look at the lead paragraphs is:

1. Intro
2. Spiritual Beliefs
3. Organizations & Criticism
4. Scientology's official viewpoint & promotional campaigns

Do you have any suggestions on how to improve upon the existing structure? ←Spidern→ 17:06, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

The lead Debunked

• Paragraph one is about L Ron Hubbard the founder of Scientology and the creation of Scientology. Then suddenly it says:

“A commonly held belief among Scientologists is that psychiatry and psychology are destructive and abusive fields, which must be abolished.”

What exactly this line has to do with the first paragraph? The Scientology and psychiatry section is part of the Scientology controversy and should be placed in controversy paragraph in the lead if at all.

• Scientology advocates that people are immortal spiritual beings (or thetans) which have lived many lifetimes.

All religions see man as a spiritual being. And how can an immortal spiritual being have lived many lifetimes when he can’t die? This is confusing. About the word Thetan The wikilink is not enough, WP: Lead states "In general, specialized terminology should be avoided in an introduction. Where uncommon terms are essential to describing the subject, they should be placed in context, briefly defined, and linked." I see the link but nothing else, define it or remove it.

• Scientologists believe that the primary purpose of existence is survival.

Amazing at last one Scientology concept from dozens of different concepts, and what happened with the scientology principles that were in the article? A Scientology article with no Scientology principles is ridiculous!

• One controversial aspect of Scientology beliefs is the idea that thetans lived among extraterrestrial cultures before becoming trapped in bodies on Earth.[9] It is believed that thetans were brainwashed by these extraterrestrial cultures as a means of population control. The belief of extraterrestrial origins is not taught to new members, but is only presented after members have advanced through the ranks of Scientology.

A whole paragraph devoted for the Scientology higher level and one little line about a Scientology principle. Are you kidding me? This is way unbalanced.

• There are a large number of organizations overseeing the application of Scientology, many of which are separate legal entities.

All scientology organizations are separate legal entities. Who cares? This is too much info for intro, it should be in the body.

• These organizations have remained highly controversial since their inception.

This sentence is a generality and POV pushing, there have not been great controversy surrounding the way to happiness foundation or youth for human rights.

• Most notable of these organizations is the Church of Scientology, whose primary concern is to uphold the belief system of Scientology.

Where is the line that divides the church of Scientology with associated organizations that promotes different aspects of Scientology. Mangling everything together is confusing.

• "Time Magazine describes Scientology as "a hugely profitable global racket that survives by intimidating members and critics in a Mafia-like manner."

This is already in the lead part of "Former members, journalists, courts, and authorities in multiple countries have described Scientology as a cult and an unscrupulous commercial enterprise." There is no need for a quote from a specific magazine when the point has already being stated. This is a double kill not needed. The lead should be ambiguos and not state a specific quote from a specific magazine.

The lead should be divided like this:

1. Scientology origin and brief history
2. The church of Scientology and associated organizations.
3. Beliefs and practices
4. Controversy

Humbly Bravehartbear (talk) 17:22, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

"there have not been great controversy surrounding the way to happiness foundation or youth for human rights" *rolls eyes*

• Bush, Rudolph (2007-10-12). "Bogus Scientology pamphlets irk Leppert". Dallas Morning News. Retrieved 2008-11-16. {{cite web}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)
• "Booklet sent to Winnipeg Mayor's office insinuates politician endorses Scientology". National Post. 2007-10-31. Retrieved 2008-11-16. {{cite web}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)
• Epstein Elias, Bat-Hen (2007-08-14). "Brainwash summer camp". Ynet. Retrieved 2008-11-16. {{cite web}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)
• Welkos, Robert W. (1990-06-27). "Church Seeks Influence in Schools, Business, Science". Los Angeles Times. Retrieved 2008-11-16. {{cite web}}: Check date values in: |date= (help); Unknown parameter |coauthors= ignored (|author= suggested) (help)
• Pittman, Craig (1997-02-02). "Classes for defendants have ties to church". St. Petersburg Times. Retrieved 2008-11-16. {{cite web}}: Check date values in: |date= (help); Unknown parameter |coauthors= ignored (|author= suggested) (help)
• Vega, Cecilia M. (2007-10-13). "Group censured for using Newsom's image in pro-Scientology booklet". San Francisco Chronicle. Retrieved 2008-11-16. {{cite web}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)
• Didcock, Barry (2007-02-17). "Hubbard Love". Sunday Herald. Retrieved 2008-11-16. {{cite web}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)
• Kives, Bartley (2007-10-30). "Katz finds religion... or vice versa". Winnipeg Free Press. Retrieved 2008-11-16. {{cite web}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)
• Friedman, Roger (2008-02-08). "Kimora Lee Simmons Scientology Cameo". Huffington Post. Retrieved 2008-11-16. {{cite web}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)
• Friedman, Roger (2008-02-08). "Kimora Lee: No Scientology". Celebrity Gossip. FOX News. Retrieved 2008-11-16. {{cite web}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)
• Kleinberg, Eliot (2008-03-08). "Mayors find happiness booklet irritating". Palm Beach Post. Retrieved 2008-11-16. {{cite web}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)
• Kleinig, Xanthe (2007-10-29). "Parent anger at religious 'advice'". The Advertiser. Retrieved 2008-11-16. {{cite web}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)
• "S.F. orders Scientology group to stop using Mayor Newsom pic". AP. San Diego Union-Tribune. 2007-10-13. Retrieved 2008-11-16. {{cite web}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)
• Rackham, Anne (1991-09-02). "Scientologists emerge as creators of mystery-shrouded movie firm". Los Angeles Business Journal. Retrieved 2008-11-16. {{cite web}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)
• Vick, Karl (1993-10-15). "Scientologists profit from new members". St. Petersburg Times. Retrieved 2008-11-16. {{cite web}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)
• Doward, Jamie (2005-03-27). "Scientologists will 'purify' drug addicts - for £15,000". Drugs in Britain. The Observer. Retrieved 2008-11-16. {{cite web}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)
• Hatzipanagos, Rachel (2008-03-11). "Scientology group stops guidebook mailings". South Florida Sun-Sentinel. Retrieved 2008-11-16. {{cite web}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)
• Rada, Moran (2007-06-07). "Scientology infiltrates summer camps". Ynet. Retrieved 2008-11-16. {{cite web}}: Check date values in: |date= (help); Unknown parameter |coauthors= ignored (|author= suggested) (help)
• Asimov, Nanette (2004-06-09). "Scientology link to public schools / As early as the third grade, students in S.F.and elsewhere are subtly introduced to church's concepts via anti-drug teachings". San Francisco Chronicle. Retrieved 2008-11-16. {{cite web}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)
• Steve Bousquet (2005-05-26). "Scientology program may fall to budget ax". St. Petersburg Times. Retrieved 2008-11-16. {{cite web}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)
• Farley, Robert (2005-09-09). "Scientology reaches out and touches a nerve". St. Petersburg Times. Retrieved 2008-11-16. {{cite web}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)
• Doward, Jamie (2006-10-22). "Scientology sets up house in the City". The Observer. Retrieved 2008-11-16. {{cite web}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)
• Di Matteo, Enzo (1998-12-10). "Scientology wants city's kids". NOW Magazine. Retrieved 2008-11-16. {{cite web}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)
• Ortega, Tony (2008-06-30). "Scientology's Crushing Defeat". Village Voice. Retrieved 2008-11-16. {{cite web}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)
• Jones, Ryan (2007-08-17). "Scientology-Linked Group Infiltrates Israeli Summer Camps". CNSNews.com. Retrieved 2008-11-16. {{cite web}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)
• Wagner, Matthew (2008-01-31). "Sderot residents offered Scientology workshops". Jerusalem Post. Retrieved 2008-11-16. {{cite web}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)
• Garcia, David Alire (2007-03-28). "Taking Chances". Santa Fe Reporter. Retrieved 2008-11-16. {{cite web}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)
• Behar, Richard (1991-05-06). "The Thriving Cult of Greed and Power". Cover story. TIME Magazine. Retrieved 2008-11-16. {{cite web}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)
• "Threatened by 'Operation Planetary Calm': Germany Will Continue to Watch Scientologists". Spiegel Online. 2008-02-13. Retrieved 2008-11-16. {{cite web}}: Check date values in: |date= (help); Unknown parameter |coauthors= ignored (|author= suggested) (help)

YHRI:

• Epstein Elias, Bat-Hen (2007-08-14). "Brainwash summer camp". Ynet. Retrieved 2008-11-16. {{cite web}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)
• Rubin, Joel (2005-10-01). "District Scrambles to Ensure Human Rights Event Is Religion-Free". Los Angeles Times. Retrieved 2008-11-16. {{cite web}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)
• Hendry, Andrew (2008-03-28). "Scientology video channel's credibility in question". PC World. Retrieved 2008-11-16. {{cite web}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)
• Patty, Anna (2007-03-28). "Unwitting high-schoolers lured to forum run by Scientologists". Sydney Morning Herald. Retrieved 2008-11-16. {{cite web}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)
• Heruti-Sover, Tali (2007-01-19). "Youth group supported by Scientology". Ynet. Retrieved 2008-11-16. {{cite web}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)

Some of those links have expired, but I still have a local copy of each of them and can cite them without the link. I'm not sure what threshold is for "great controversy"—Some 18 high ranking members convicted and two convictions against Scientology itself as with Operation Snow White? AndroidCat (talk) 05:41, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

I'm not talking about the CoS only assosiated orgs, the only thing controversial about The Way to Happiness and Youth for Human Rights is that it is associated with CoS. That's what all your links state. What about if we just state:

Scientology and associated organizations have been highly controversial since it's induction.

I would go for that.Bravehartbear (talk) 07:38, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

Comments on "The Lead debunked"

I agree that the sentence about psychiatry and psychology at the end of the first para is badly placed and should move to controversies. Jayen466 23:28, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

As for the structure of the lead, I would propose:

1. Scientology origin and brief history
2. Beliefs and practices
3. The church of Scientology and other organizations
4. Controversy

I think it makes more sense to retain Beliefs and Practices as the second element, since we are, in this article, dealing with Scientology, i.e. a religious philosophy.

The things about auditing, anti-drug programs etc. could go together with the beliefs outlined in the second paragraph, couldn't they? Jayen466 23:34, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

The "lived many lifetimes" is indeed a bit daft. We could say, approximately following Melton, "inhabited many different bodies throughout their existence". Jayen466 23:43, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

"What happened with the scientology principles that were in the article?" They were sourced to primary sources, Bravehartbear, which is not good enough, since then it is editors deciding which elements are noteworthy and which are not. Please help us reintroduce them by researching reliable sources that describe these principles. Melton has a few such descriptions, and there may be more in the academic works for which I gave google books links above. Most of the pages of these books can be read online in google books. (If occasionally a page is not available, try switching from google.com to google.co.uk or another country. Sometimes a page that is blanked in one google country is not blanked in another. Some of the books are also browsable, for a limited number of pages, in amazon.com, if you are a registered customer there.) Jayen466 23:49, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

I agree that the Xenu "not taught to new members" thing takes up too much room in the lede. Xenu is central to the discourse of Scientology opponents (serving mostly to ridicule the religion), but is not a central belief of Scientology. As such, it is perhaps better placed in the controversies part of the lede. Jayen466 23:53, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

I agree with Bravehartbear that naming the Time magazine article is overkill, given that we have already summarized the claims of journalists, former members, critics etc. Perhaps an overall summary like this would do in that part of the lede:

"Scientology has been subject to exceptionally intense and wide-spread criticism. Ex-members, journalists, courts, and authorities in multiple countries have alleged that Scientology is a cult, an unscrupulous commercial enterprise, and that it uses methods of intimidation and harassment against its critics."

Jayen466 00:02, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

Steven A. Kent

Steven Kent has been highly criticized by various religious scholars for lack of academic attitude and integrity has been questioned because he has received exorbitant amounts of money to create legal affidavits.

Point of information: The "various religious scholars" epithet is a generality and the actual number cited below is four. The "exhorbitant amounts of money" epithet is another generality and corporate scientology POV. The study tech scholar who started this section misspelled his first name which is "Stephen".--Fahrenheit451 (talk) 20:31, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

Kent's own rather shallow studies based as they are almost entirely on the accounts of a small number of hostile ex-members and a very selective choice of citations from the literature. _{J. Gordon Melton, 1998}

Wasn't Melton a paid consultant for the CofS around the time he wrote that comment?--Fahrenheit451 (talk) 00:56, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

As I said before, it is not up to WP editors to decide on a scholar's standing; it is the scholarly community that decides that. Jayen466 01:35, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

OK, I've gotta come out of my self-imposed exile to reply to this. You just negated WP:RS with that argument. So far, your arguments, while I disagree with them, have come from an understandable perspective. This? Not so much. Wikipedia has guidelines for determining what is and is not a reliable source for a reason. Financially compromised sources (such as scientists paid by oil companies to denounce climate change, or tobacco-funded researchers who discover that tobacco isn't bad for you) are not generally considered reliable for anything but the opinions of their sponsors. If Melton was a consultant for the Church of Scientology at the time he wrote that, it doesn't reflect well on his academic credentials. Quoting WP:RS on scholarly sources: "Academic and peer-reviewed publications are usually the most reliable sources when available. However, some scholarly material may be outdated, superseded by more recent research, in competition with alternate theories, or controversial within the relevant field. Reliable non-academic sources may also be used, particularly material from reputable mainstream publications." If Melton was being paid by the Church at the time, I would be concerned that the field of religious scholars (I consider NRM scholars to be way, way too narrow a field to be applicable, since there are like six of them, and Melton's one) might find that controversial. In any event, it really is up to WP editors to determine if a scholar is a reliable source. For a bunch of outsider perspectives, might I suggest bringing Melton to the attention of the reliable sources noticeboard? --GoodDamon 14:55, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

We are very, very far from the situations you describe. In the case of tobacco scholars and the like, you will find that there is a majority of scientists dismissing their findings and pointing out their apparent conflict of interest. Their works will not enter university curricula. They will not be considered leading scholars in their field. In other words, there will be substantial evidence in reliable sources, authored by authorities in their field, that their research was compromised. This is not the case here.

I believe Kent's complaint against Melton was that Melton signed a document supporting Scientology's efforts to keep its upper level teachings confidential. The above-quoted comments by Melton were in response to that. I believe it's nonsense to claim that he was "a paid consultant for Scientology at the time he wrote that article" (source please, published, not some Internet post). As it happens, Melton's view on a religion's right to keep its esoterica secret was and is shared by the majority of religious scholars, including Wilson, who was generally considered a world authority. Lastly, a scholar widely viewed as having been "bought" by the tobacco industry is not likely to be selected as the author of the Encyclopedia Britannica's article on cigarettes. Melton has authored the article on Scientology, as well as a dozen other such groups, including AUM. If you want to go to RS/N, by all means, let's. But I suggest you bring some reliable sources alleging that Melton's academic standing has been compromised, rather than an ex-cathedra statement likening him to a paid tobacco scholar. Cheers, Jayen466 17:03, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

Here is an example of a university syllabus. Required reading on the CofS includes Melton (2000). Introvigne is also in there, as are Dawson and Singer. Here another one, with Dawson and Melton. Here yet another, listing two works by Melton. And so forth.If you tell me you read on an Internet page that the universities have got it all wrong and are part of a big conspiracy, and we shouldn't cite any university scholars, what do you expect me to say to you? Jayen466 17:46, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

You misunderstood me. I didn't mean to imply that the situations directly relate. I presented the tobacco- and oil-paid scientists as examples of the kinds of "scholars" we should definitely dismiss per WP:RS, and was merely disagreeing with your assertion that "it is not up to WP editors to decide on a scholar's standing." The analysis you performed -- tracking down universities that rely on Melton to demonstrate that he may be regarded as a reliable source -- is exactly the kind of thing Wikipedia editors should do in determining how the peers of a given scholar regard his/her work. Frankly, outside of a few universities that use his books in courses on new religious movements (thank you for that, by the way), I still don't know very much about the man or how his work is regarded by the larger world of religious scholarly study, nor do I know how carefully peer-reviewed his work is. --GoodDamon 19:58, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

I'm sorry if I misunderstood. Further to the above, I've done a comparative study of the frequency of Kent's and Melton's work in university syllabi, which may be of use.

• Here are .edu-hosted syllabi or course outlines that mention Scientology and refer to "Stephen Kent" or "Steven Kent" or "A. Kent" or "S. Kent": the total is 3.
• Here are .edu-hosted syllabi or course outlines that mention Scientology and refer to "Gordon Melton" or "J. Melton" or "G. Melton": the total is 11.
• Here the same for Introvigne: [16]

A number of university syllabi are collected on the website of the American Academy of Religion.

• Here are those that mention Scientology and Melton: [17]
• Here are those that mention Scientology and Kent: [18]

I posted this on RS/N the other day:

• J. Gordon Melton is Director of the Institute for the Study of American Religion and a Research Specialist with the Dept. of Religious Studies at the University of California, Santa Barbara. He is the author of such standard reference works as the Encyclopedia of American Religion and the Encyclopedic Handbook of Cults in America, and of such recent works as Religious Leaders of America and the New Age Encyclopedia. Melton also happens to be the second-most prolific contributor to Encyclopedia Britannica.
• More links like that, Melton in google scholar Jayen466 20:22, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

"If Kent really thinks that experts in “cult” cases should make $11,000 for each 13,000-words document based on their previous works they write, he may be right after all and academic integrity may, in fact, be in serious danger.” _{Dr. Massimo Introvigne, Director, Center for Studies on New Religions}

And Introvigne is a patent attorney hired by the CofS to testify on their behalf in France? --Fahrenheit451 (talk) 00:56, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

Kent has also contradicted himself stating that Scientology is a religion in a $21,600 affidavit that he made for a case against WISE he states: "intrusion of religious concepts into the workplace" "contained the Scientology religion". How come Kent can't make up his mind stating that Scientology is a religion in one affidavit and is not a religion in another one? It seems to me that his testimony is for sale.

"Kent concludes that Scientology is a religion based mostly on its notions of thetan and of past lives. We applaud Kent's reliance (at least) on mainline scholarship on Scientology in order to come to the conclusion that what others (including persons Kent should know better than any other) have described as mere "treatment" is in fact "a religious practice" ” _{Dr. Massimo Introvigne, Director, Center for Studies on New Religions}

CofS was Introvigne's client, were they not?--Fahrenheit451 (talk) 00:58, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

"Kent’s essays suffer from methodological flaws so grievous as to call into question the validity and reliability of Kent’s conclusions, especially as the foundation for sound legal or legislative action (with regard to conflicts with new religious movements at either the individual or collective levels). In fact the methodological inadequacies detected are indicative of a prejudice inappropriate to the practice of the social sciences (given the consensus on maintaining at least the regulative ideal of objectivity and value-neutrality)." _{Dr. Lorne L. Dawson, Associate Professor of Sociology and Religious Studies, University of Waterloo, Waterloo, Ontario.}

Wasn't Dawson a paid consultant of the CofS around the time he made that comment?--Fahrenheit451 (talk) 00:56, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

"Kent and his cronies (like hollow-earth enthusiasts, big foot believers, and other advocates of the irrational) have responded [to criticism from the academic community] with ad hominem arguments, convinced that any who would oppose their crackpot theories must be involved in some kind of sinister conspiracy against them….I examined [the] data and concluded that Prof. Kent had, indeed, violated the canons of academic research methodology as well as the ethical standards of mainstream scholarship." _{Dr. James Lewis, Professor, University of Wisconsin}

Did "Dr." Lewis have a PhD at the time he made that comment or was he telling us a tall tale?--Fahrenheit451 (talk) 00:56, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

The bottom line is that Steven A. Kent is not a reliable source of academic information. Bravehartbear (talk) 02:29, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

So says CESNUR and the Church of Scientology's website? (www.religiousfreedomwatch.org)?? Oh good grief! AndroidCat (talk) 05:17, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

No these are a bunch of religious schoolars making these obsevations CENSUR and religious freedom watch are the ones that are publishing it. Any way what's wrong with CENSUR?

Bravehartbear (talk) 07:05, 28 November 2008 (UTC) Bravehartbear (talk) 07:27, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

Bravehartbear, see the related RS/N thread if you haven't noticed it yet. Cheers, Jayen466 17:56, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

Bravehartbear, please visit Sarin gas attack on the Tokyo subway and ask the editors there if they think J. Gordon Melton is a legitimate source of facts about what is a cult, what is a peaceful law-abiding religion, and what is scholarly. Sarcasm aside. Kent is argues Scientology is a cult, not a real religion. So, of course, he wishes to both deny it the rewards of religious-status (tax exemption), and still deny it what he would deny all religious groups (presence/preference in public schools, businesses, government, etc...). Being designated a cult, does not mean organization should be freed of the restrictions of a religious group. --Rob (talk) 08:12, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

You wrote, "Kent [...] argues Scientology is a cult, not a real religion." This actually misrepresents Kent's position as expressed in his paper "Scientology -- Is This a Religion?" In it, Kent appears to me to argue that Scientology is a religion to its adherents, but that it is also a number of other things besides, with only one component of the whole package being religious. Kent's paper contains not a single instance of the word "cult". (Also see Introvigne, "Kent has ... always claimed that Scientology is also, but not exclusively a religion".) Jayen466 23:23, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

Both Kent and Dawson are generally recognized as Scholarly sources. That being said, Kent is decried by some as having a few flawed arguments. Although he criticizes Kent's methods as not being comprehensive, Dawson makes an interesting statement about "the world's fastest growing religion":

The Catholic Church has been the subject of vociferous criticism by hundreds, if not thousands of people for centuries. Yet it would be hard to imagine that any credible historian or social scientist would think to investigate the church by seeking only the views of its critics, while dismissing all of the pronouncements of the church out of hand. What is the difference? The Catholic Church, by virtue of its size and longevity, has a greater measure of legitimacy in our society than the Church of Scientology. It is not, in other words, in the vulnerable position of being a minority.

— Lorne L. Dawson

Later in his footnotes, although once again criticizing Kent's method (read on after this quote, if you wish), he says:

When the RPF was created in 1974, for example, Russel Miller, a well-known critic of Scientology, argued (1987:318-23) that there is strong evidence that Hubbard acted rather impulsively and was emotionally and mentally unbalanced. He seemed to be experiencing some kind of nervous breakdown. As Miller presents matters, the creation of the RPF is but one of a number of "bizarre" behaviors that "indicated that he was losing his facility to distinguish... between fact and fiction" (323). The Church of Scientology may well wish to dispute this account, but Miller is one of Kent's prime sources for information about the origins of the RPF.

— Lorne L. Dawson

←Spidern→ 13:07, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

Kent is a significant scholar and commentator on Scientology, there is absolute no question about that. Many scholars disagree with aspects of his arguments, and we should try accurately to reflect the status of scholarly debate, but Kent's voice belongs in the mix we have to mirror. Jayen466 14:31, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

For the context of the quoted comments by James R. Lewis, see the copy on Hein's site [19] which has the whole shebang of the controversy. Jayen466 14:43, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

OK, so we have to address the reality that there is no set Scholastic view of Scientology, that this like everything else is debatable. Bravehartbear (talk) 23:46, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

Well said. If people agreed about everything, life would be boring wouldn't it? :) On a more serious note: If anything good has come of the page being locked, at least we've had a chance to determine some good academic sources to be used (the need for something like that was brought up before, but never really addressed). ←Spidern→ 16:31, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

I've added a couple more above. One of them is a major, 500-page Oxford University Press publication on Scientology due to come out in February next year. Jayen466 17:53, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

I'm looking forward for that paper. Looks pretty exhaustive. ←Spidern→ 19:56, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

Forgive me worrying that it's a piece of goo. "Official national census figures indicate that the number of Scientologists grew significantly in Canada". Errr, no, they didn't. The Jedi had far more significant numbers. AndroidCat (talk) 07:11, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

Does anybody know the numbers in Canada for any year other than the 2001 census (1,525), to allow for a comparison? Just curious (sorry for going off-topic). --Rob (talk) 08:40, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

1,220 in 1991, 1,525 in 2001. They don't seem to have compiled results for 2006 online yet, but the question is only on the decennial census.[20] (20,000 Jedi in 2001![21]) It's much the same with New Zealand and Australia: Fluctuations with current minor gains, but nothing that could be described as "grew significantly" by an honest researcher. AndroidCat (talk) 16:08, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

(outdent) For reference, the 1991 and 2001 census figures for the three countries are:

• NZ increase from 207 to 282 (up to 357 in 2006)
• AU increase from 1,091 to 2,032 (up to 2,507 in 2006)
• CA increase from 1,220 to 1,525

(Figures are "admitted" Scientologists, i.e. those who volunteered this info in the census. Sources in Church of Scientology.) Jayen466 18:24, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

In Canada, there are only two data points (1991 was the first year it was asked), so it's hard to assign any real meaning. The small increase could also be explained by low numbers of "admitted" Scientologists in 1991 (during the lead-up to R. v. Church of Scientology of Toronto), followed by strong urging by the organization for members to answer the question in 2001. It's all handwaving until after 2011. The small numbers are also a problem. I could start a NRM of one, convert someone else and my group would have doubled in size, 100% growth .. but it wouldn't be very significant. AndroidCat (talk) 18:49, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

Sure, I understand the maths. And I am sure you understand that the Australian figure increased 86% over that ten-year period, and 129% over 15 years. At any rate, the above figures, and the sentence in the website blurb, are not a solid basis to impugn the integrity of a respected researcher. It's very simple: "Dishonest" academics don't get to write book after book for Oxford University Press. Editors cannot make a personal decision here as to which academics they consider "okay" and expect other editors to abide by those assessments. For Wikipedia purposes, it is these academics' peers who make the decision as to who is reliable and who is not. On that basis, Lewis is well in the clear. Jayen466 18:58, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

He's "in the clear" until he publishes book with faulty statistical analysis. A small clump of self-referencing NRM academics is not immune to critiques on their methodology from the world of science outside their tiny little field. AndroidCat (talk) 05:55, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

Here is the wikilink to Stephen Kent's bio: Stephen_A._Kent--Fahrenheit451 (talk) 20:47, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

Wow

This "religion" is a joke. The "Galactic Confederacy"...LULZ. However, the article is actually extremely well written, the sources, especially in the lead are nothing short of perfection, and I certainly hope nobody is considering making any large changes. Thats all. 70.244.235.38 (talk) 04:08, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

Although your suggestions aren't exactly article improving, I have to agree on all counts... 71.144.122.24 (talk) 08:35, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

Remember: Wikipedia is not a forum Xavexgoem (talk) 23:43, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

Two bits from Melton

It is not clear how literally Hubbard expected church members to accept the mythology of the OT levels. As with biblical mythology, aspects are difficult to correlate with, e.g., modern geological findings. But as is the case with New Age notions of Atlantis and Lemuria, Hubbard may merely have meant this cosmic history to be received as mythological truth, stories which tell the truth about the self better than mere abstract propositions. It is the case, however, that on whatever level Scientologists have received this mythology, they have found it a meaningful tool in their quest to become fully spiritual beings.

— Melton (2000), p. 33

Scientology believes psychiatry is built upon a false foundation which ignores basic insights discovered by Hubbard—that the mind is composed primarily of mental image pictures, that the brain is simply a conduit for the mind, and that humans are essentially spiritual beings. Rather, according to Hubbard, psychiatry and the related field of psychology have built their understanding on the premise that humans are basically animals, that mental activity originates in the brain, and that humans respond most directly to environmental stimuli. Scientology has also charged that, however well meaning some individual practitioners may be, psychiatry as a field has become permeated with criminality and has repeatedly offered itself as a governmental tool for political suppression.

— Melton (2000), p.49

Offers useful angles and alternative viewpoints that we should include. Jayen466 22:35, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

WP:AE

This is just an FYI on the Arbitration Enforcement thread which is currently open here. ←Spidern→ 13:44, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

Reorganization proposal

Let's talk a little bit about something happier than what's going on with ArbCom. This article needs to become a true WP:SUMMARY-style article; Scientology as an overall topic is simply too big to fit in one article, and there are too many arguments over which content should and should not go into it. So I propose a top-to-bottom restructuring of this article and related topics, with an emphasis on keeping each sub-topic as partitioned from the other topics as possible, so that proper WP:WEIGHT can be applied to each stand-alone subject instead of the subjects fighting with each other for space. The more detailed information can then go in the appropriate sub-article. Please note that my headings are just preliminary suggestions.

So without further ado, this is my proposed structure for the article as a summary article:

• Intro - This should itself summarize everything below. It should not be front-loaded with straight across the board duplications of anything.

• Beliefs and practices (Main article: Scientology beliefs and practices) - An overview of the Scientology belief system's beliefs and practices. The section in the main article should focus on what Scientologists purport to believe, although it should limit itself to reliable secondary sources and avoid any use of Hubbard's own books and writings for citations. It should not go into any great depth about ARC, KRC, Dianetics, or any of the more controversial practices such as anti-psychiatry. An overview of each is quite enough.

• Xenu/OT-I:OT-VIII subsection (Main articles: Xenu, Galactic Confederacy, Operating Thetan etc.) - As it is highly notable and the source of considerable press about Scientology, there should be a brief overview of the hidden doctrines of Scientology. There should absolutely not be an excessive focus on detail for a summary-style article, and I say this because it's going to be a massive troll and critic attractor. Everything that goes in this subsection should be weighed very carefully to be sure it's pertinent enough to go in the main article, and isn't just a particularly juicy, "fun" detail.

• History (Main article: Timeline of Scientology, perhaps a new history article?) - A brief overview of the history of Scientology. The history of any belief system should mention -- briefly -- the founding of its primary supporting organization, notable events (such as when Scientology became a religion), notable historical controversies, etc.
• Organizations (Main article: Church of Scientology) - An overview of the organizations that support Scientology, with most of the emphasis being on the Church as the primary topic.

• Hierarchy subsection (Main articles: Church of Spiritual Technology, Religious Technology Center, etc.) - A brief rundown of the interconnecting parts that comprise the organizational whole associated with Scientology. Focus should mostly be on how they all interrelated, with details about each specific organization left to the sub-articles.
• Splinter groups subsection (Main article: Free Zone (Scientology)) - An overview of the groups that reject the Church and the interconnecting organizations.

• Controversial and criminal behavior (Main articles: Operation Freakout, Operation Snow White, Fair Game (Scientology), etc.) - An overview -- and please, don't go into excessive detail -- about the more notorious criminal cases and policies of the Church of Scientology. This should not be a huge section; more detail is most appropriate in the Church of Scientology article and the sub-articles for each specific topic. Of all sections, this one has the greatest danger of becoming the largest and most overpowering one out of a desire by critics to stack every news story or detail into it. Please stick only to the biggest and most well-known/notable topics here. There should be subsections on:

• Notable criminal cases
• Controversial policies (such as Fair Game)
• Anti-psychiatry

• Scientology as a business (Main article: Scientology as a business) - An overview of the Scientology's status in various countries, and in various components, as a business instead of a religion.

This is just a template, which I am happy to see adjusted and altered. Let's get this thing organized. Thoughts? --GoodDamon 18:50, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

I fully agree with you (as stated earlier) that this article needs to follow Summary Style. I think the organization you have listed about looks reasonable. DigitalC (talk) 04:17, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

I think this looks very sensible on the whole. Which section should summarise "Scientology as a state-recognized religion" – "History" or "Scientology as a Business"? Jayen466 06:20, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

Careful on the "state-recognized religion" point. In most countries where scientology cloaks itself as a religion, there is no official recognition "as a religion". For example, in the U.S. the scientology group of companies have tax-exempt status, but under the first amendment to the U.S. Constitution, no governmental entity may proclaim what is or is not a religion. --Fahrenheit451 (talk) 19:50, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

Whoops, knew I'd forgotten something. Let's see... Separate section? Both Business and Religion incorporated into History? I'm open to suggestions. --GoodDamon 15:30, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

There are three circumstances that have a bearing on the matter as far as the US are concerned: (1) a letter that was sent to foreign governments 15 years ago, clearly referring to Scientology as a religion (2) the fact that following the IRS decision, the US State Department's Religious Freedom Reports began to comment on the treatment of Scientologists in various countries (3) that numerous pages on US government websites refer to Scientology as a religion (4) that numerous reliable sources, e.g. [22], explicitly refer to recognition as a religion in the US. As for other countries, a number of them do have an official register of religions to which Scientology has been added (eg Spain and Sweden). In Australia, a Supreme Court decision 25 years ago officially pronounced Scientology a religion, overturning an earlier decision to the contrary. In Italy, too, the Supreme Court affirmed Scientology's religious status. Jayen466 20:04, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

Since the issue is a complicated one (and frankly made more so by the fact that parts of Scientology are specifically pushed for secular use) any section about Scientology as a religion should stick to the countries that have a comparatively large Scientology presence and give an overview of that country's legal recognition (or lack thereof) of Scientology's religious status. I'm thinking three or four countries, tops, with countries that have a minimal Scientology presence detailed in a sub-article. --GoodDamon 20:18, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

We should really stick to secondary sources on this material as well. DigitalC (talk) 03:10, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

Sure thang. Sources are available for these countries, just didn't bother typing them in here. Jayen466 04:01, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

I think we should mention Australia, since it was one of the first countries to recognise it, and the court's findings proved influential in the English-speaking world, as well as the States, obviously. Spain and Italy could be mentioned in passing. Germany and France are key nations on the other side of the debate. There was also an important case involving Russia at the European Court of Human Rights. Jayen466 00:35, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

Please note that I object to the phrasing "where Scientology cloaks itself as a religion". Jayen466 20:16, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

I acknowledge your objection, however, my statements about religious cloaking are accurate and factual. Please see Larry Brennan's affidavit here:[23]--Fahrenheit451 (talk) 03:59, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

Don't be daft, x number of courts have taken a different view. And it's insulting to an individual scientologist who sincerely views it as his religion. But thanks for acknowleding my objection, anyway. I likewise acknowledge that you have your convictions. Cheers, Jayen466 04:07, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

I asked you to look at an affidavit, and your response is to tell me not to be daft. Did you even read the affidavit? Brennan even testified to a governmental body in Hamburg, Germany not too long ago.--Fahrenheit451 (talk) 04:20, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

The affidavit is not good it doesn't have a signature or a court seal, anyway is just a POV, it is up to the court to determine the facts and like Jayen said: "x number of courts have taken a different view." And that's a fact. Bravehartbear (talk) 23:14, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

I have to agree. Fahrenheit451, could you please tone down the rhetoric? --GoodDamon 20:18, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

Not rhetoric, my friend, fact than I can personally confirm.--Fahrenheit451 (talk) 04:01, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

I agree with the proposed reorganization proposal, right now this article is very anarchal --Zaharous (talk) 00:41, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

I agree with the re-org. Bravehartbear (talk) 13:54, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

Editprotected request

{{Editprotected}}

<ref>[http://www.whyaretheydead.net/krasel/aff_at.html Affidavit of Andre Tabayoyon], 5 March 1994, in ''Church of Scientology International vs. Steven Fishman and Uwe Geertz'', contradicted in [http://www.freewebtown.com/luana/11apr94-mudslide.pdf sworn declaration of staffer James Hall], 11 April 1994</ref>

The two hyperlinks in the above text should both be removed from the article. Requesting another administrator do this. Thank you, Cirt (talk) 01:39, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

Agreed. The sworn Declaration is here now[24] but I don't know if it can stay there. Some Admin please check this out. If ok, we could exchange the above link with this. Shutterbug (talk) 04:53, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

 Done Ruslik (talk) 09:11, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

The use of self-published sources

I just want to point out that self published sources can be used!!! WP:SPS states:

Using self-published and questionable sources as sources on themselves

Self-published or questionable sources may be used as sources of information about themselves, especially in articles about themselves, without the requirement that they be published experts in the field, so long as:

the material used is relevant to the notability of the subject of the article;

1. it is not unduly self-serving;
2. it does not involve claims about third parties;
3. it does not involve claims about events not directly related to the subject;
4. there is no reason to doubt its authenticity;
5. the article is not based primarily on such sources;
6. the source in question has been mentioned specifically in relation to the article's subject by an independent, reliable source.

Meta-issue: Court documents and reliable sourcing

This would be as good a time as any to open the issue of court documents. Court documents are primary materials that, like all primary materials, may be used in accordance with WP:PRIMARY. That policy is very general and the proper use of primary materials in specific instances will always be a topic for discussion. There is, however, a meta-issue that I would like to discuss. I will try to state it below, feel free to amend it toward a better statement. --Justallofthem (talk) 18:06, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

Statement of issue

These are many court documents related to Scientology. For the our purposes and with reference to WP:PRIMARY these may be divided into three rough categories.

1. Court documents that have been published in whole or in part in secondary sources.
2. Court documents that have been specifically referenced in secondary sources but not published verbatim.
3. Court documents that have not been specifically referenced in secondary sources.

Issue 1

The proper place of these three categories is the first issue to be addressed here.

Once we have decided that we might want to use a court document as a source, the question comes up as to how, exactly, do we access this document. In the past, I believe that I can say with confidence, editors have used so-called "courtesy copies" hosted on POV sites critical of Scientology. This practice is currently under the spotlight after editors objected to an affidavit hosted similarly but on a Scientology-sympathetic site. That instance is a good example of the problem that we need to solve. The so-called "Ronald DeWolf retraction affidavit" is referenced in a number of secondary materials critical of Scientology. The only place I found it online was on the scientologymyths.info site, here, and an associated archive site. As the document is referenced in multiple places it might be appropriate to quote relevant parts of it if we can agree on the suitability of the sourcing.

Issue 2

The second issue to be addressed here is what would constitute an acceptable "true copy" of a court document for use here.

Comment by Justallofthem

On the first issue, use of the last would seem to violate the text and spirit of WP:PRIMARY, i.e. the "affidavit of Joe Blow in the case of Suzie Que vs. the Church of Scientology" would have no place in Wikipedia if that specific document has not at least been referenced in a secondary source. We are not in the position to judge the merit, relative importance, or credibility of a document such as that. I will withhold my comments on the second issue for now as I want to hear what others have to say. --Justallofthem (talk) 18:06, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

Comment by Fahrenheit451

Justallofthem, I note that you refer to affidavit "courtesy copies" "hosted on POV sites critical of Scientology", but on the other hand you refer to an affidavit "hosted similarly but on a Scientology-sympathetic site", and not refering to that affidavit as a courtesy copy or the scientology sympathetic site as "POV". You are clearly treating each situation in accordance with your own POV and not impartially.--Fahrenheit451 (talk) 07:46, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

Please word-clear "similarly". --Justallofthem (talk) 12:41, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

Please strive to keep your POV out of this discussion.--Fahrenheit451 (talk) 00:22, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

Why, should we only allow your POV? I quote: You are clearly treating each situation in accordance with your own POV and not impartially' Snort. --Justallofthem (talk) 04:33, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

Again, please keep your POV out of this discussion. No snort.--Fahrenheit451 (talk) 05:27, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

Why do you always want to waste time with this off-topic sniping? --Justallofthem (talk) 12:31, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

The sniping seems to be coming from you here. I made a comment and you replied with an snide "Please word-clear "similarly". I attempted to put the discussion back on track and you replied with another snide remark. You may be talking about yourself.--Fahrenheit451 (talk) 06:13, 20 December 2008 (UTC)

Comment by Jayen466

I agree that we should not use court documents that are not referred to in secondary sources – it is original research to do so. We should reflect the current published secondary sources. Jayen466 13:34, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

Comment by Bravehartbear

Court Documents should only be used as a reference for a secundary source and never as a primary source. I don't have have problem with judgements but affidavits are only a POV. I'm very concern this will be just a used as a POV pushing tool. Also a official court document requires a signature and a court seal. Bravehartbear (talk) 18:24, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

Comment by Proximodiz

Court documents could be useful to back up date information (like the incorporation date of the first Church of Scientology) but they cannot be hosted on private sites. I think such documents should be uploaded to Wikisource and scrutinized for validity before they can be used as a reference. Case in point, the links for following reference "Church of American Science' (incorporation papers); 'Church of Scientology' (incorporation papers); 'Church of Spiritual Engineering,' (incorporation papers); 18 December 1953." should be removed. Proximodiz (talk) 04:31, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

Scientology History

I have big problems with the last sentences of the 4th paragraph:

Mr. Miscavige, the highest-ranking Scientology leader, walked in to see Fred T. Goldberg Jr., the Commissioner of the Internal Revenue Service at the time, without an appointment. He was later seen and allegedly offered to halt the lawsuits Scientology had against the IRS in exchange for tax exempt status. To this end, Goldberg allegedly ordered tax analysts to ignore multiple court precedents and other substantive issues during the review of the decision.}

Since when Wikipedia uses the word allegedly? Who alleged what? The official statement from IRS officials is:

While I.R.S. officials insisted that Scientology's tactics had not affected the decision, some officials acknowledged that ruling against the church would have prolonged a fight that had consumed extensive Government resources and exposed officials to personal lawsuits. At one time, the church and its members had more than 50 suits pending against the I.R.S. and its officials.

"Ultimately the decision was made on a legal basis," said a senior I.R.S. official who was involved in the case and spoke on the condition that he not be identified. "I'm not saying Scientology wasn't taking up a lot of resources, but the decision was made on a legal basis."

"In interviews, senior Scientology officials and the I.R.S. denied that the church's aggressive tactics had any effect on the agency's decision. They said the ruling was based on a two-year inquiry and voluminous documents that showed the church was qualified for the exemptions.

Metting betwen Miscavige and Goldberg was private to the only references to this meeting are from the CoS and state that it was done to resolve the dispute. What was offered or not is pure speculation. Afther the metting Goldberg set up a committee to resolve this issue.

When the committee determined that all Scientology entities should be exempt from taxes, I.R.S. tax analysts were ordered to ignore the substantive issues in reviewing the decision, according to I.R.S. memorandums and court files.

Mr. Schoenfeld, the negotiations chairman, ordered the two tax analysts assigned to the review not to consider any substantive matters, according to I.R.S. memorandums and records in the Tax Analysts case. Those issues, Mr. Schoenfeld informed them, had been resolved.

The tax analysts were ordered to ignore multiple court precedents and other substantive issues during the review of the decision because this issues were already resolved by the commitee.

So lets stick to the facts and ignore opinions or allegations. The facts are these:

1. The tax exempt status was granded and then removed on the basis that it profited Hubbard.
2. The CoS responded by making it dificult for the IRS.
3. DM and Goldberg meet.
4. Goldberg set up a committee to resolve this issue.
5. The committee determined that all Scientology entities should be exempt from taxes.
6. The ruling was based on a two-year inquiry and voluminous documents that showed the church was qualified for the exemptions. The IRS stated the pressure by CoS was not a factor.
7. Two tax analysts were assigned to do a review and finish the settlement. They were ordered not to consider any substantive matters because these issues were already resolved.

ref:

PS all the above quotes are from the same NY Times article. Humbly Bravehartbear (talk) 02:30, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

The New York Times article says:

Among the findings of the review by The Times, based on more than 30 interviews and thousands of pages of public and internal church records, were these:

• ...
• The decision to negotiate with the church came after Fred T. Goldberg Jr., the Commissioner of the Internal Revenue Service at the time, had an unusual meeting with Mr. Miscavige in 1991. Scientology's own version of what occurred offers a remarkable account of how the church leader walked into I.R.S. headquarters without an appointment and got in to see Mr. Goldberg, the nation's top tax official. Mr. Miscavige offered to call a halt to Scientology's suits against the I.R.S. in exchange for tax exemptions.

There is the official statement of the IRS, which must be stated as such in the article, but there are also the findings of the New York Times, which we must present as well in the article. Maybe "allegedly" is not a good word, I don't know. How about "The New York Times found..." or "The New York Times determined..." Raymond Hill (talk) 04:16, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

I concur with Bravehartbear. We are giving the NYT "findings" full weight, while ignoring the official IRS statements, which in part address these concerns. Jayen466 13:50, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

Well, WP:RS states:

News reporting is distinct from opinion pieces. Opinion pieces are only reliable for statements as to the opinion of their authors... Opinion pieces are also distinguished between those representing the opinion of the news organization's editorial board and those representing the opinion of one author (or a few co-authors.)

What I see is that the first part of the article in question where the autor gives his conclusions are based on the author's opinion that is contracdicted by the facts that he is presenting. What I see is that this article is a mixture of opinion and facts. We must separate the opinions out and stick with the facts. The facts are the only valueable part of this article. Bravehartbear (talk) 04:27, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

Do you have a link or source to that "The official statement from IRS officials"? AndroidCat (talk) 07:25, 18 December 2008 (UTC) Puzzling Journey, right? (Best not to use ref links in Talk pages.) I'll review it. AndroidCat (talk) 07:29, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

The person who alleged the impromptu meeting took place was none other David Miscavige himself in a presentation to members, followed by Church of Scientology publications. Later, after the leak, contradictory statements were issued by Church of Scientology officials saying the meeting never took place. It seems that the problem with reliability lies with Scientology and David Miscavige. AndroidCat (talk) 11:41, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

• Frantz, Douglas (1997-03-19). "Scientology Denies an Account Of an Impromptu I.R.S. Meeting". New York Times. Retrieved 2008-12-15. {{cite web}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)

Sorry I was not talking about the meeting but other conclusions that NY Times stated like what took place in the meeting when this meeting was private, I never argued there was a meeting. Bravehartbear (talk) 16:18, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

Sounds like the original Scientology article featured an impressive amount of spin. :-) Without actually saying so, it certainly creates the impression that Mr Miscavige was taken to see the IRS man right away. A good example of why we shouldn't use Scientology's primary sources either. Jayen466 13:01, 20 December 2008 (UTC)

Well, the New York Times thought they could trust the statement of David Miscavige, backed by official Scientology publications, about an otherwise mysterious confidential deal, and since the IRS and Fred Goldberg won't confirm or deny either of Scientology's accounts of the meeting, *shrug*. Normally Scientology sources are at least RS about what is said by Scientology. AndroidCat (talk) 13:28, 20 December 2008 (UTC)

I think the most likely explanation is that, for internal consumption and morale-boosting, the Scientology journalists thought it would be cool to present it as though Mr Miscavige had just walked in, Wild West-style, and was seen right away. It obviously would have been less rousing to report that he called at the desk, politely asked for an appointment, and was seen a month later – so they glossed over that part. It is the same with Freedom magazine and other Scientology sources – it is certain that some of it is true, and some of it is spin, but it is often hard to tell where truth ends and spin begins. Of course, some of the Scientology critics are even worse.

Looking at the original New York Times article that we cite, they actually attributed it: "cientology's own version of what occurred offers a remarkable account of how the church leader walked into I.R.S. headquarters without an appointment and got in to see Mr. Goldberg, the nation's top tax official. Mr. Miscavige offered to call a halt to Scientology's suits against the I.R.S. in exchange for tax exemptions."

We probably shouldn't be confidently asserting in our article that Miscavige walked in without an appointment and saw Goldberg. At the moment we say: "In 1991, Mr. Miscavige, the highest-ranking Scientology leader, walked in to see Fred T. Goldberg Jr., the Commissioner of the Internal Revenue Service at the time, without an appointment.[29] He was later seen and allegedly offered to halt the lawsuits Scientology had against the IRS in exchange for tax exempt status. To this end, Goldberg allegedly ordered tax analysts to ignore multiple court precedents and other substantive issues during the review of the decision.[29]" Suggestions? Jayen466 15:18, 20 December 2008 (UTC)

Then we would be confidently asserting Scientology's second claim that no such immediate meeting occurred. :) I believe that Scientology writers were only repeating what had been said by Miscavige or possibly Rathbun at the Los Angeles Sports Arena, October 1993, but I don't have a cite for that. AndroidCat (talk) 15:40, 20 December 2008 (UTC)

• Newton, Jim (1993-10-13). "IRS, Scientology End Their 'Wars' -- Church And Its Corporations Are Granted Tax-Exempt Status". Los Angeles Times, St. Petersburg Times. Seattle Times. Retrieved 2008-12-15. {{cite web}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)

Thanks for the sources. Well, even the International Scientology News, as quoted by the NYT article you linked above, did not explicitly claim there was an immediate meeting, whereas the Church was definite and unequivocal in 1997 that there wasn't an immediate meeting. The ISN article is dated by the NYT to 1994, i.e. some time after the announcement of the "end of the war". I am sure if you read British reminiscences about the road to VE day from 1946, there will be some glossing over and embellishments too. Jayen466 16:01, 20 December 2008 (UTC)

Does anyone happen to have the text of the Scientology advertisement rebutting the NYT article? Has it been commented on anywhere? Jayen466 16:04, 20 December 2008 (UTC)

It has been commented on, as well as Miscavige's IAS speech, 8 October 1993. (A partial version was printed in issue 32 of International Scientology News.) Wayback has some of the hatewatch.freedommag.org site Tsk, it's all very entangled. AndroidCat (talk) 18:51, 20 December 2008 (UTC)

Well, Mr Miscavige too never actually says he met them on that day. But the way he doesn't say it in his victory speech I am sure everyone in the audience pictured him having had the meeting that day. It made a good story. Jayen466 22:11, 20 December 2008 (UTC)

(dedent)

"In October of 1991, while this war was raging at its apex, Marty Rathbun and I were in Washington DC. to attend one of these court hearings I mentioned. It was to be the next day. We had just finished a lunch meeting and our next appointment wasn't for a couple of hours. In other words - we had some spare time on our hands. That's not something we're accustomed to, so - we thought at last we could create a bit of mischief. We told the lawyers we'd see them in an hour or so and that we would be down at the IRS building. Of course they had a good chuckle as we left the room. Off we proceeded to 1111 Constitution Avenue - which if you didn't know is the address of the national headquarters of the IRS. We presented ourselves to security at the front door, signed the visitors log and informed them we were there to see Fred. They asked - Fred who? We answered, Fred Goldberg of course, the Commissioner of the IRS. "Is he expecting you"" they asked. "No", was our response. "but if you phone him on the intercom and tell him we are from the Church of Scientology, I am sure he'd love to see us." Have you ever wondered whether we were really impinging, when we have spoken of the IRS at previous events? Well - if so - shame on you. "We did meet with the commissioner, and, as the saying goes - the rest is history."

It does make a good story, but didn't someone FOIA-request the visitors' log, which showed no visit? Strange. AndroidCat (talk) 22:38, 20 December 2008 (UTC)

Well, Rathbun said they met one month later. I think that is more likely to have been the truth. Agreed? Jayen466 23:29, 21 December 2008 (UTC)

Irrelevant. What anyone thinks is more likely to be the truth would be OR unless a WP:RS. (Personally I doubt any of the versions of the Tale of the IRS Meeting are completely true. So what?) AndroidCat (talk) 04:58, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

More Scientology hystory

The last sentence is incorrect IAW CNN

the Church of Scientology consequently bought the Cult Awareness Network in bankruptcy court, and now operates it as a promotional arm for the Church of Scientology itself

CAN was purchased by a Scientologists not the CoS and "now operates it as a promotional arm for the Church of Scientology" is pure opinion. The other references for this sentence are not reliable neither. Bravehartbear (talk) 02:49, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

Agreed, not accurate. Scientologist Steven L. Hayes bought CAN's "logo and other appurtenances", Scientologist Gary Beeny got CAN files, and operations of CAN was turned over to "Scientology-backed group, the Foundation for Religious Freedom," as reported in Ron Russell's "Scientology Revenge." Raymond Hill (talk) 04:31, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

Also, as I said before, the characterization of the New CAN as a "promotional arm for the Church of Scientology" is contradicted by more recent academic sources. See [25] (James R. Lewis, 2005), [26] (Anson Shupe, 2006). These opinions should be given due weight as per WP:RS#Scholarship: (1), they are more up to date, (2), these are scholarly sources. Jayen466 13:34, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

We really, really need to be careful here. James R. Lewis is one of only a few self-identified scholars of new religious movements, and as far as I can find is largely regarded as a cult apologist in the much wider field of religious academia. We should not be limiting ourselves to religious scholarship by this small group of individuals. A lot of religious scholars have written about Scientology -- and about CAN -- and picking Mr. Lewis as a source, considering the controversies around him (and for that matter, around Anson Shupe; he's got a similar reputation), seems unlikely to result in a balanced article. Why not track down noted scholars in the wider religious field and use them as sources instead? --GoodDamon 14:47, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

That's plain bollocks: Not even Benjamin Zablocki, Stephen A. Kent and the like employ the term "cult apologist" and Lewis is considered one of the few (there are maybe about 50-100 scholarly sources on SCN) scholarly experts on Scientology. Just because some ant-cult crusaders try to smear anybody, who does not express their, I say it mildly, "point of view", does not mean that we cannot draw on academically published sources. Fossa_?! 15:08, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

I didn't say Kent or Zablocki use the term. I was using the term as a general descriptor, after reading about Mr. Lewis here on Wikipedia and in a few news articles. Kent and Zablocki would be two examples of religious scholars who don't hold Mr. Lewis in high regard, but the term was my own. --GoodDamon 16:50, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

Mr Lewis does not have a crystal ball, and frankly, looking at the world's history of minorities accused of crimes, I would prefer someone who once in a while errs in favour of the minority to someone who generally assumes guilt and errs in that. This is consistent with the fundamental principle of our legal system: innocent until proven guilty; better to let one murderer go free than to execute one innocent man. I don't believe Lewis claimed AUM were innocent once there was conclusive evidence to tie them to the attacks. Again: it is the scholarly community that determines an author's standing. It is absolutely ludicrous if people here argue that an academic who has won prizes for his work, whose works are required reading in university syllabuses, and who is published by the most prestigious university press in the world should not be a reliable source worth citing. I shall bring this up in the arbitration; I have no desire to argue such basic points time and time again. "I don't know about Oxford University Press and Routledge, they may be cult apologists, but Operation Clambake has a very interesting essay here from an ex-scientologist ..." There comes a point when such contributions become actual disruptive editing and should be treated as such. Jayen466 17:25, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

GoodDamon, note that I am not accusing you of citing Clambake essays. I know you don't do that. But I am sure if we watch this talk page for a couple of weeks, someone will come along ... Cheers, Jayen466 17:31, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

Thank you, I was about to respond to that rather vehemently, and I appreciate you taking note of it. I'm happy to concede the point on James R. Lewis' academic credentials after digging through how much he has published in more detail. I have to admit to some personal qualms about him; he routinely accepts money from the groups he writes about. But that's not for me to judge him on, certainly not in Wikipedia. I'm of a mind to ask at WP:RS/N, just to have some outside perspectives on him. --GoodDamon 17:49, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

With all due respect, I would suggest that you haven't got a clue what you are talking about, GoodDamon. James R. Lewis is the editor of an upcoming Oxford University Press volume on Scientology. Oxford University Press is not a fringe publishing outfit. I believe they pick and choose their authors quite carefully. Check how many University Press publications and peer-reviewed papers the guys who call Lewis a "cult apologist" have to their credit. Jayen466 15:33, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

No, Oxford University Press is not a fringe publishing outfit, but you can't cherry-pick with them, either. They also publish works by Richard Dawkins, certainly a notable scholar and scientist. Care to take a look at how this extremely notable, scholarly source describes Scientology? OUP publishes works from all sorts of perspectives. --GoodDamon 16:50, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

If you care to look in which fields Dawkins has been published by OUP, you will find that the fields concerned are biology and science writing. James R. Lewis may have opinions on genetics; that does not make him a RS in our article on it, even though he is published by Oxford University Press. Cheers, Jayen466 17:28, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

Fair enough, although I would argue that Dawkins is well on his way to establishing himself as a contrarian religious scholar himself. --GoodDamon 17:49, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

More like he has already established himself as an anti-religious quack, see also http://www.lrb.co.uk/v28/n20/eagl01_.html which summarizes Dawkins "accomplishments" in this field as entertaining as correct. Fossa_?! 18:12, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

This is a typical mistake, the tying of a reputation to a person, rather than to a type of source. Has this not (yet) been rectified in WP:RS? Dawkins has not (and, I take I wild guess) will never publish anything reputable about Scientology, but he did AFAIK on population genetics. Fossa_?! 18:10, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

Time did a massive expose on CAN and how scientology literally came up with an organized strategy to bankrupt it and then buy it and use it for thier own purposes. Think of it this way, If I want to sell something that is considerd ilegal but it sells really well I could just buy out the org that decides weather or not this thing I want to sell is ilegal. Boom Motive and you got opertunity, resulting from direct contact with scientology no less. It's really obvious and if that is not enough many scholars and the guy in time as well refer to CAN as a part of scientology now. 67.84.159.28 (talk) 15:55, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

The Time article is more than ten years old, right? I do not think what some reporter 10 years ago thought was going to happen is more reliable than what scholars have observed happening over the past 10 years. Btw, neither Lewis nor Shupe deny that Scientologists have a major role in running the New CAN. They are merely commenting on what the New CAN is actually doing. Jayen466 16:13, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

WP:UNDUE, WP:RS issues in Celebrities section

I have a big problem with the last paragraph of the article, starting with the words "Andre Tabayoyon, a former Scientologist". The whole paragraph is WP:UNDUE and trivia. "Ploughing meadows." Please!! In addition, almost all of it is cited to a primary source (an affidavit) hosted on an attack site (whyaretheydead.net). How do we know the affidavit has been correctly represented on this extremely POV site? Even conceding that it "probably" is, why are we mentioning it in the main article on Scientoloy without any evidence having been supplied that this is an issue that published secondary sources consider a major aspect of Scientology, important enough to be mentioned in our main article on it? Jayen466 13:58, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

Agreed. Secondary sources need to be found, or it goes. Except in rare, carefully considered situations, we shouldn't be citing anything but reliable news and scholarly sources. I have yet to see an argument that Xenu.net or whyaretheydead.net pass muster as scholarly sources. Neither belong in any section of this article except perhaps under the External Links section. --GoodDamon 14:40, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

They are against Scientology, thus they must be solidly valid sources. Heck, the National Enquirer would become a reputable source, if he were to publish an article on Scientology's attempts to clone Hitler funded by E.T.'s in the North Korean government. Fossa_?! 14:59, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

I am not entirly sure that scientology would want to clone hitler, I mean they were nazis in the past but now they are beyond that stage. I understand your humour and your frustration but what alot of us need to keep in mind is the colossal importance this article hold to it, not just with recent even like the protests but that this article is under scrutiny unlike most others in the cateogory of religion. Xenu.net and whyweprotest.net both has original sources (actual leaked scientology documents) that for obvious reasons can not be used here until they appear in a court case or are referenced on the news or some other secondary source. however it is still in my opinion a great idea to keep your eyes on both the sources you CAN use and the source you wish you could use but can't because very soon these two things will be one and the same. The media is really trotting along with this at a fearsomly brisk pace and soon alot of the stuff about the clave camps and the child labour will be in secondary sources and even then third sources.67.84.159.28 (talk) 15:52, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

Fine, let us also keep our eyes on sources we can use: [27][28] Jayen466 16:32, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

well, for a supposed cult (and this coming from someone who pretty much despises scientology - but truth be told) they 've pretty much let you do whatever you want with their entry here, I mean the quality of the sources and the gossipy tone of this part is not something we usually see at wikipedia. Had they been this superevil cult I am sure they 'd find some way to cencor you guys here, pretty ironic really. 91.132.224.196 (talk) 12:05, 20 December 2008 (UTC)

Scientology/ Auditing

{{editprotected}} On the Scientology page, under Auditing, there is a request for "citation needed" after the statement: "In Scientology it is considered a high crime to audit people who..."

The citation needed is:

Hubbard Communications Office Policy Letter of 6 December 1976RB, revised 8 April 1988: Illegal PCs, Acceptance of, High Crime PL.

In the same section, the third paragraph that reads "...are members or ex-members" should end in or. Like this;

"...are members or ex-members or"

(JDPhD (talk) 20:37, 20 December 2008 (UTC))

 Done.  Sandstein  21:21, 20 December 2008 (UTC)

Brilliant, now we have one more primary source in the article. Jayen466 21:43, 20 December 2008 (UTC)

Have to agree, this is not an improvement unless we're allowing Hubbard's policy letters as sources, and I'd like to see a solid argument why we should make a WP:PRIMARY exception for these. I'd just as soon avoid anything written by Hubbard directly in favor of independent analysis. --GoodDamon 02:14, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

Scientology: Dispute of "religion" status

I have a bone to pick with this section and that is that is actually mangling two issues that are separate issues together. “Scientology as a religion” is strictly an academic issue; whereas the “Scientology as a state recognized religion” is strictly a legal issue. Different countries have different laws and different levels of religious recognition. Like in Germany, state recognized religions can get federal funds. Mangling these two sections together is just deceptive because it hides the individual legal issues that minority religions like the Mormons and Jehovah witnesses face in these European countries. These two issues should be separate. Bravehartbear (talk) 15:17, 21 December 2008 (UTC)

In addition to government sponsored criticism of minority religions there are also several organizations supported by the mainline Evangelical Church in Germany (EKD) and Roman Catholic Church both of which, although not State churches, have a special relationship with the State and received funds from the Government levied Church tax plus other monies "regulated by" historic "concordats and agreements." Cf. Arno Kappler and Adriane Grevel, eds., Facts About Germany, Frankfurt -am-Main, Societäts-Verlag, 1995, pp. 382. RELIGIOUS FREEDOM IN GERMANY: MIRAGE OR REALITY? by Irving Hexham

The two issues pointed out by Bravehartbear are factually two aspects of a single issue. Any person can make up a doctrine and call it a religion. However, to get government recognition, the practice of that doctrine has to meet certain requirements. In Germany, scientology is treated as a business, even though the corporation claims to be a religion. In Israel, scientology is also treated as a business, despite claims of being a religion. What is a religion is in the eyes of the beholder. What is a religion for legal purposes is a political matter.--Fahrenheit451 (talk) 00:40, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

I agree that Bravehartbear has pointed at two aspects of a single issue. Politics can not regulate thought and rarely prevent academia from publishing. But, as Fahrenheit451 points out, religion is in the eyes (or mind) of the beholder. Therefore laws created by politics do not regulate religion. For example, laws do not say, "thou shall not think alien thoughts". Instead laws regulate religious organisation. Germany is especially careful. Jonhathon (talk) 03:54, 24 December 2008 (UTC)

It is not clear what is meant by "government recognition". In countries where there is freedom of religion (e.g. the United States), the government is not in the business of "recognizing" a religion as valid or invalid. In the U.S., there is the matter of tax-exempt status for a nonprofit organization for religious purposes, but this does not convey any claim by the government that the religion is authentic ... or even particularly organized! (See, for instance, some of the cases involving the Universal Life Church.)

It seems to me as if some religious groups, possibly including Scientology, trump up their U.S. tax-exempt nonprofit status (or comparable status in other countries) as if it were proof of their bona fides or social standing. But it is not the purpose of U.S. tax-exempt nonprofit status to recognize exemplars of good faith, but rather merely to exclude egregious tax frauds. Simply being recognized by the government as "not a total cheat" is not a very high acclamation. --FOo (talk) 06:38, 24 December 2008 (UTC)

I agree with your observation, FOo. The First Amendment of the U.S. Constitution prohibits any governmental entity in the United States from determining what is or is not a religion. And yes, I am aware of corporate scientology using the 501(c)3 status they obtained during the Clinton Administration as a credential that the cofs is "recognized" as a religion in the U.S. That is misrepresentation. --Fahrenheit451 (talk) 23:37, 24 December 2008 (UTC)

Would the brennan affidavit be usefull here? I mean it is a secondary source since it is cited in a press conference in hamburg. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i_NKvGOCp9s Would that not make it a secondary source and thus proof positive that the churches religious status is trumped up and false? Aaron Bongart (talk) 17:55, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

A press conference is not usually a reliable source, and the affidavit itself is a primary source. Let's stick to reliable secondary sources. If a news organization vets and confirms the Brennan affidavit in a news story, that news story itself is a reliable source, and should be used. I strongly encourage everyone to read WP:RS and WP:OR. We want to use the former and avoid the latter. --GoodDamon 22:08, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

Scientology: Beliefs and practices

{{editprotected}} In the section "Beliefs and practices" of the Scientology page, the second paragraph that reads in part: "Scientologists believe that people are composed of ... mind, spirit and body". The "citation needed" that appears there is: L. Ron Hubbard Scientology: The Fundamentals of Thought, pp 65-75, Bridge Publications Inc., 2007 ISBN 978-1403144195

(JDPhD (talk) 22:22, 25 December 2008 (UTC))

Please don't. We're trying to get away from using primary sources. I'm sure there's a good secondary source around for that. Although this does bring up an interesting point; the article on Christianity uses books of the Bible as sources for various statements concerning Christian beliefs. Would a suitable exception to WP:PRIMARY be to use primary sources specifically for citations on what Scientologists actually believe? If we're going to make an exception, that seems to be the most logical one. --GoodDamon 01:26, 26 December 2008 (UTC)

 Not done No consensus yet.  Sandstein  14:21, 26 December 2008 (UTC)

Secondary source

The point is well taken. One secondary source is "What is Scientology?". For that particular "citation needed": What is Scientology?, pp.68-70, Bridge Publications Inc., 1998 ISBN 1573181226 (JDPhD (talk) 16:41, 26 December 2008 (UTC))

That is a primary source in that it is a Church of Scientology publication (Bridge being the in-house publishing firm). --Justallofthem (talk) 17:09, 26 December 2008 (UTC)

Probable secondary source

O.K. As the "citation needed", here is another more probable secondary source from the Computer Science Dept.& Center for the Neural Basis of Cognition at Carnegie Mellon University, Pittsburgh, PA. written by David S. Touretzky stating specifically: "Scientology teaches that human beings are composed of three parts: the thetan (or spirit), the mind and the body." The address: http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/pubs/sfn98/[29] (JDPhD (talk) 20:05, 26 December 2008 (UTC))

Oh, I do not think we need to go there - a paper allegedly presented somewhere by a noted critic of Scientology and self-hosted? No, thanks. The basic concepts of Scientology are presented in a number of published texts on NRMs. Here is one Google search. --Justallofthem (talk) 20:31, 26 December 2008 (UTC)

This looks fine. --Justallofthem (talk) 20:32, 26 December 2008 (UTC)

How about this one: on p. 60, it reads "...the Spirit of the person in Scientology, the real person, is the thetan, which inhabits a body. The body is controlled, up to a point, by the mind."

Mary Farrell Bednarowski, New Religions and the Theological Imagination in America, p. 60, Indiana University Press, 1995 ISBN 978-0253209528 (JDPhD (talk) 01:20, 27 December 2008 (UTC))

Grammar Issues

Under History, third sentence from the bottom:

"An organization called the Cult Awareness Network who once provided assistance former cult victims received more complaints concerning Scientology than any other group."

Tense conflict. Should be changed to "...receives more complaints..." or a date or time reference should be given at the end of the statement (i.e., "in 2008"). LittleNuccio (talk) 22:48, 26 December 2008 (UTC)

---

Under "Influences," the term "dianetics" is a proper noun and should therefore be capitalized. LittleNuccio (talk) 22:53, 26 December 2008 (UTC)

---

Referencing "Scientology as a commercial venture," "...it was announced at the Book Expo America a dianetics Racing Team..." should be changed to "it was announced at the Book Expo America that a Dianerics Racing Team...displays a large Dianetics logo" to conform to demonstrative pronoun and capitalization standards. LittleNuccio (talk) 22:59, 26 December 2008 (UTC)

---

In Beliefs and practices, "...were first formulated in Dianetics--Hubbard's earlier writings which precede Scientology" should be changed to "were first formulated in Dianetics, Hubbard's earlier writings which precede Scientology", or the antecedent should be removed entirely (as it is referenced by the link), to conform with Em dash standards. LittleNuccio (talk) 23:27, 26 December 2008 (UTC)

Introduction

The "citation needed" that appears just before the table of contents may be:

John A. Saliba, Signs of the Times, p. 30, Médiaspaul, 1996 ISBN 978-2894203262. It reads "...Scientology does not demand blind faith but endeavours to help the individual discover past experiences and shed the trauma and guilt (sin) which encumber".

(JDPhD (talk) 16:46, 27 December 2008 (UTC))