Talk:Charles Darwin

spelling

could someone PLEASE spell check the article? The word "organized" is spelled wrong every time, and that's just what stands out. I'm sure there are others... sorry, this just bothers me and it won't let me fix it, so whoever is in charge... please fix it —Preceding unsigned comment added by Fluckyea (talk • contribs) 20:11, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

Ran a spellchecker—UK spellchecker—over it: no changes. --Old Moonraker (talk) 20:36, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

This is the British spelling of "organized" and it is perfectly acceptable everywhere, including here in the States. This article was likely written by a Brit, and I'd like to thank them for it. Perhaps a few articles are missing though.

Megatherium and Africa

Could someone clarify this mentions found in the article: Though he correctly identified one as a Megatherium and fragments of armour reminded him of the local armadillo, he assumed his finds were related to African or European species and it was a revelation to him after the voyage when Richard Owen showed that they were closely related to living creatures exclusively found in the Americas. Why he did thought so? I could get access to only one source: [1] but it does not say anything about this. QWerk (talk) 19:11, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, worth reviewing. The statement is based closely on Desmond & Moore, p. 210 – regarding Owen's finding that fossil faunas are closely related to their living replacements in the area, "Darwin had never expected this; on the voyage he had assumed that he had found European and African mastodons and rhinos, not exclusive South American species. It pulled him up sharp, causing him to ask the key question: why is present and past life on any one spot so closely related?" Browne pp. 349–352 goes over the same revelation, but is less explicit about the idea of European and African relationships. I don't think she mentions the "rhino" comparison, that D & M make much of: some sources have been investigated and cited at Second voyage of HMS Beagle#Surveying South America, and it rather looks as though Darwin started with the rhino comparison, but by the time he wrote home he was describing the giant skull correctly as a megatherium. The mastodon issue is interesting – he clearly thinks a number of his fossils are from mastodons, but these are commonly North American as much as European. Was he right about thinking his findings in Patagonia were mastodons, or were these some of the hitherto unknown species Owen identified from the fossils? I'll try reading this a bit, and consider rephrasing this point.Thanks, . dave souza, talk 21:36, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

The more I look into this, the more complicated it looks. However, there's enough to suggest that D & M's statement is exaggerated and the large skull was actually from a near complete Scelidotherium skeleton, so I've modified the related statements accordingly. Owen did confirm mastodon (and horse) fossils in the finds, will work on clarifying points in the more detailed article about the Beagle voyage. . dave souza, talk 22:17, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

Infoboxes

Does "Infobox Scientist" supersede the need for "Infobox Person" in in the same way that categories are hierarchical? At present the article has two, not of the same width, with much of the information appearing twice (or three times if you include the article text). I suggest that one or other should make way. --Old Moonraker (talk) 14:38, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, User:Dave Souza, for the fixes.--Old Moonraker (talk) 15:47, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

<edit conflict> Agree, so have removed the "Infobox Person". It suffered from listing piped links to the Darwin's children who have no artile of their own, and to his siblings who only appear under the article about his father. All useful links already appeared in the Infobox Scientist or the first section, whith the one exception being Erasmus Alvey Darwin so I've mentioned him as being at school and uni with Charles. . . dave souza, talk 15:53, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Influences

Thomas Malthus should be included among the list of people who influenced Darwin. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mixedmemes (talk • contribs) 05:33, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

The template's not a very nuanced place, and so many people influenced Darwin. Of those he met, Lyell is outstanding, Henslow and Grant could also be named. His work was influenced by Lamarck, Humboldt, de Candolle and others. While Malthus was certainly influential at a crucial moment, his influence shouldn't be given undue weight. . . dave souza, talk 13:08, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

Thomas Malthus should definately been in this page... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.147.227.124 (talk) 00:58, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Alexander von Humboldt should also be added as an influence. Please let me know if you need any proof of this. Alexander Von Humboldt Jsopher (talk) 18:02, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

Didn't you notice "He read John Herschel's new book which described the highest aim of natural philosophy as understanding such laws through inductive reasoning based on observation, and Alexander von Humboldt’s Personal Narrative of scientific travels. Inspired with "a burning zeal" to contribute..." And, for that matter, "...I happened to read for amusement Malthus on Population..." . . dave souza, talk 22:49, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

more on religion

The Selfish Gene said that macabre behavior such as the golden digger wasp's laying larvae on paralyzed grasshoppers on which the larvae would dine drove Darwin from an all-loving God. 67.243.6.204 (talk) 03:10, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

It's a valid point which is covered under Charles Darwin#Religious views – "he questioned... the problem of evil of how the ichneumon wasp paralysing caterpillars as live food for its eggs could be reconciled with Paley’s vision of beneficent design." . . dave souza, talk 08:42, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

i warn all you religious ppl out there. i'll get my The God Delusion (Dawkins) copy ready soon and look up all the original references and put them all here and watchlist this page til i die. hahaha!! darwin was an atheist!!!!! you'll see. --Sophieophil (talk) 10:15, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

Splendid as Dickie Dawkins often is, he's not very strong on Darwin's history. As the good man wrote, "In my most extreme fluctuations I have never been an Atheist in the sense of denying the existence of a God. I think that generally (and more and more as I grow older), but not always, that an Agnostic would be the more correct description of my state of mind."... dave souza, talk 11:18, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

Perhaps the best and most logical thing to do is to keep religion out of this article all together as Darwin's contributions were mainly biological, and also the unavoidable fact that religion in an article like this would most definately attract bias. --192.88.124.200 (talk) 06:20, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

There's a lot of interest in Charles Darwin's views on religion which this biography concisely summarises. His contributions to biology are appropriately given more attention. . dave souza, talk 10:50, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

Grammar

I disagree with the grammar in the first sentence of the second paragraph, which reads: "Darwin developed his interest in natural history while studying first medicine at Edinburgh University, then theology at Cambridge." It makes it sound like he was studying "first medicine" at Edinburgh. Delete the word "first" altogether, the reader can infer it was first because of the "then" later in the sentence.Mojodaddy (talk) 03:58, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

Changed to "firstly", but perhaps the sentence is still a little awkward. --Old Moonraker (talk) 05:59, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

Good point. It seems to work ok without "first", so will remove it. Always glad to trim out excess, and if anyone's puzzled they can read the detailed section. . . dave souza, talk 20:59, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

Historicians do not reject that Charles Darwin converted to Christianity. James Moore who is a neutral historician confirms this. It is also false that his children rejects it - only Darwins oldest son does. Not only did Darwin convert he also regret his theory as he says it only "mislead" people. He did not do it as a fight against the thought of Creation. He also has much doubt about his own theory. He instance he said "The eye alone can prove my theory wrong." he also said at the end of his life "I know with myself, that I am in the middle of a hopeless darkness. I do not believe that the world as we see it is a result of random chance; and yet I cannot see every little thing as a result of a plan."— Preceding unsigned comment added by VDaniel (talk • contribs) 18:31, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

That's not what good reliable sources say, and note that this talk page is for improvements to the article, not debating opinions or presenting creationist quote mining. . . . dave souza, talk 18:40, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

q

um... there is a thingy blocking one of the pictures (under overwork illness and marage) and I dont know how to fix it. You can delete this section once it is fixed. Mr. Invisible Person (talk) 22:34, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

I have the same problem in Internet Explorer: it's fine with Firefox. Don't know how to fix it either, sorry. Mcewan (talk) 22:46, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

1860 Essays and Reviews

From Reaction to the Publication

"In 1860, the publication of Essays and Reviews by seven liberal Anglican theologians diverted clerical attention from Darwin. An explanation of higher criticism and other heresies, it included ..."

This seems to imply that higher criticism is a heresy. Is that intended? Mcewan (talk) 13:01, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

As always, trying to say a lot very concisely creates problems. Yes, it was a heresy in the views of church authorities at the time, though a decade or so later the fuss seemed ridiculous. I've rephrased it to clarify the issue –

In 1860, the publication of Essays and Reviews by seven liberal Anglican theologians diverted clerical attention from Darwin, with its ideas including higher criticism attacked by church authorities as heresy. ..

Thanks for picking that up, hope the revision meets your concerns. . . dave souza, talk 10:01, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

Perfect, many thanks. No soapbox here, just interested :) Mcewan (talk) 11:04, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

Desmond and Moore biography

I've been reading this great biography a little lately, and have created a gallery for it at Commons, Darwin. The book itself is copyrighted but many of its images are ineligible for copyright. We already have a lot of them at Commons (and some of them perhaps here, i.e. not yet moved to Commons, much like Image:Jim_moore.jpg at the time I'm writing), though there may be others that will be new uploads (and others still that may be copyrighted). I created a similar gallery for Dennett's book Darwin's Dangerous Idea - copyrighted books are certainly not something we should ignore. Richard001 (talk) 00:49, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

Fact or theory

The introductory paragraph to this article is untrue. Since the article is protected from editing, this error will remain thus undermining the credibility of Wikipedia. The paragraph should be re-written as follows:

Charles Robert Darwin (February 12, 1809 – April 19, 1882) was an English naturalist,[I] who theorized that all species of life evolved over time from common ancestors through the process he called natural selection.[1] The theory of evolution gradually grew acceptance in the scientific community during his lifetime. His theory of natural selection came to be seen as the primary explanation of the process of evolution in the 1930s,[1] and now forms the basis of modern evolutionary theory.[2]

The reason for the re-write is that evolution cannot be proven and therefore must remain a theory. The statement that Darwin demonstrated evolution is false. The phrase The fact that evolution occurs is false. The statement about acceptance in the scientific community and by the general public during his lifetime has no basis in fact. As a matter of fact, there continues to be significant rejection of the theory among scientists and the general public. There is no scientific proof of the theory of evolution. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Randy7l (talk • contribs) 03:16, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

The sentence you are objecting to has a wikilink to the article Evolution as fact and theory where your objection is answered. Also see Talk:Evolution/FAQ where this very same issue is addressed. siℓℓy rabbit (talk) 03:21, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

Charles Darwin never claimed he proved his own theory. It was his postulated explaination of the origins of life. Terming the open paragraph to suggest "Darwin proved/demonstrated" the validity evolution misrepresents Darwin's theory and studies.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.155.175.225 (talk • contribs) 22:06, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

The opening paragraph states "who realised and demonstrated that all species of life have evolved over time from common ancestors through the process he called natural selection. The fact that evolution occurs became accepted by the scientific community and the general public in his lifetime, while his theory of natural selection came to be widely seen as the primary explanation of the process of evolution in the 1930s" The cited source says "Darwin's name is so linked with evolution because his works convinced the international scientific community that evolution was true. In the two decades after the publication of Origin the great majority of the scientific community came to accept that Darwin was right about the evolution of life. But natural selection was often not accepted. In fact, a generation of biologists regarded Darwin as correct in uncovering the evolution of life but mistaken in stressing natural selection. Natural selection's canonisation had to wait until the modern synthesis of Darwinism with Mendelian genetics in the 1930s."[2] . dave souza, talk 11:29, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

Evolution is a fact. Gravity is a fact. Just as the theory of gravity attempts to explain the fact of gravity, the theory of evolution attempts to explain the fact of evolution--RLent (talk) 19:16, 30 January 2009 (UTC). Darwin Quote: "But then with me the horrid doubt always arises whether the convictions of man's mind, [if developed by evolution], are of any value or at all trustworthy. Would any one trust in the convictions of a monkey's mind, if there are any convictions in such a mind?" (in a letter to W. Graham, July 3rd, 1881) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Zohre6 (talk • contribs) 17:16, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

Lack of transitional fossils indicate that evolution is not fact?? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.132.161.212 (talk) 09:34, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

See WP:TALK, transitional fossil and evolution as theory and fact. . dave souza, talk 10:45, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

Quote mine. Darwin's not doubting evolution, but teleology.

Here's the whole letter, note at least some of the context:

"thank you heartily for the pleasure which I have derived from reading your admirably-written Creed of Science...... You would not probably expect any one fully to agree with you on so many abstruse subjects; and there are some points in your book which I cannot digest. The chief one is that the existence of so-called natural laws implies purpose. I cannot see this. Not to mention that many expect that the several great laws will some day be found to follow inevitably from some one single law, yet taking the laws as we now know them, and look at the moon, where the law of gravitation—and no doubt of the conservation of energy—of the atomic theory, &c., &c., hold good, and I cannot see that there is then necessarily any purpose. Would there be purpose if the lowest organisms alone, destitute of consciousness, existed in the moon? But I have had no practice in abstract reasoning, and I may be all astray. Nevertheless you have expressed my inward conviction, though far more vividly and clearly than I could have done, that the Universe is not the result of chance. But then with me the horrid doubt always arises whether the convictions of man's mind, which has been developed from the mind of the lower animals, are of any value or at all trustworthy. Would any one trust in the convictions of a monkey's mind, if there are any convictions in such a mind?" Read and enjoy. . dave souza, talk 20:37, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

Images

This page needs some work on images. Text is sandwiched between some images. And on my monitor the blockquote from Malthus obscures a good part of the image of Emma. Kablammo (talk) 15:14, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

OK, some images have been added which don't contribute as much as the main images, so I've selected the best and moved them a bit to overcome the problems you report. It may be a browser thing as I don't have the same problem, so let me know if that's an improvement. Thanks, dave souza, talk 16:52, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

It's better, but I wonder if too much is being attempted with images and templates. I'm looking at it on a wide monitor; I don't know if image crowding may be worse on a narrower monitor, or if the narrower text column width gives adequate spacing. One of the problems is the quote format, as the quote boxes can overlay the images. As you can see, I experimented with the earlier version using the <blockquote></blockquote> method and that does not overlay the image. But where the image is on the left margin, that method also justifies the quote margin at the image's right margin, rather than indenting, as it would if the image were not there.

I wandered by here because next year will be the 150th anniversary of publication of Origin of Species; I wanted to see how many relevent articles are at FA. It would be an excellent featured topic if more could be brought up to FA standards. I do not however claim knowledge sufficient to help in that area. Regards, Kablammo (talk) 20:36, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, yes, Darwin's 200th birthday comes in January, then the 150th anniversary of OTOOS next November gives us some time to aim for FA, if anyone's game. I'm looking at this article at 1280 x 800 on a laptop, seems ok in Camino. Is this more a technical issue with the quotation boxes? They give good emphasis, and are less intrusive in a way than cquote big curly quotes. Blockquote seems a bit lacking in emphasis, but guess we can change if the others have problems with some browsers. . dave souza, talk 21:14, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

I've now seen it on a laptop and it spaces much better. I think the quotation box format is the issue. The "Darwin's children" box takes up a lot of space also. Kablammo (talk) 21:18, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Rather agree, this is getting a bit technical for me – if you want to try out different quote formats and widths of that box, that would be worthwhile. Looking at other biology FA biographies, maybe better go back to blockquotes. . . dave souza, talk 21:42, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

He did doubt his theory and he also said that.

He did not prove an evolution or development, but a variation. The article also puts it up as he had demonstrated that species evolve but he did not.— Preceding unsigned comment added by VDaniel (talk • contribs) 18:31, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

That's not what good reliable sources say, and note that this talk page is for improvements to the article, not debating opinions. . . . dave souza, talk 18:38, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

Possible FA dates

To follow up on the discussion in the previous section:

It looks like the offspring articles are not at FA, and several of the main articles (including this one) have already been featured on the main page. Here however are a few possibilities for TFA:

• Alfred Russell Wallace on 8 January, his birthday;
• History of evolutionary thought on 12 February, Darwin's birthday;
• On the Origin of Species (not yet FA) on 24 November, 150th anniversary of publication.

Origin of Species would have to be brought up to FA standards. Kablammo (talk) 17:36, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, that's a good analysis and I agree with the suggestions. I'm really bogged down with detail just now, could you look at proposing the first two for those dates? . . 23:19, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

I have posted this suggestion to the talk pages of the first two articles. (The first step for the Wallace request would be in two weeks.) The third article is not yet at FA, and the proposed date is a year out. Kablammo (talk) 00:07, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

8 February 2009 would be a better idea: it is on the anniversary of his birth! What do you think? --Marianian (talk) 21:40, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

See Talk:History of evolutionary thought#Main page request? for discussion about getting that article featured on 12 February 2009, Darwin's birthday. Too early just yet to get it onto WP:TFAR, but Alfred Russell Wallace is already approved for 8 January. A lot of work is needed to get On the Origin of Species up to standard and through WP:RFA so that's the next big project on these articles, hopefully with assistance coming up sometime from Wikipedia:WikiProject History of Science/Collaboration of the Month. Before that, there's also the idea of Wikipedia:Did you know/Darwin Day 2009 so must try to get some new articles ready. . . dave souza, talk 09:50, 3 January 2009 (UTC)

Stale external link

External link to "Digitized titles..." should be updated from:

http://www.botanicus.org/creator.asp?creatorid=93

to:

http://www.botanicus.org/Search.aspx?searchTerm=Charles%20Darwin

JmCor (talk) 21:37, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for checking that. Looking at the search, they only seem to provide scans of two titles, both of which appear as scans and text at Darwin Online.[3][4] I'll remove the link for now, if anyone has good reason for it to be added again we can review that. Thanks again for the useful link, dave souza, talk 23:38, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

Use of scientist

The term scientist was only coined in 1833 (see scientist and did not come into widespread use until the late 19th century. It therefore seems inappropriate for there to be references to scientists such as "Early in March Darwin moved to London to be near this work, joining Lyell's social circle of scientists and savants such as Charles Babbage" in Inception of Darwin’s evolutionary theory. Naturalist/natural historian would be better. (Admittedly when scientist came into widespread use is debatable!)Smartse (talk) 20:34, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

A fair argument, but we're trying to communicate to modern readers, and Whewell (who coined the term in 1833) was part of that social circle, as well as having been one of the Dons who Darwin learnt from at Cambridge University before 1831. So it seems very likely that Lyell, Babbage and Co. would have been well aware of the term by 1837. Desmond & Moore p. 212 say Babbage's parties "were glittering affairs, 'brilliantly attended by fashionable ladies, as well as literary and scientific gents.' " That seems to come from Lyell's Life and Letters[5] ... So, could change it to scientific gents and savants, but concise is good. . . dave souza, talk 21:05, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

"Scientist" was coined as something derogatory, not something Whewell and his friends would have called themselves. "Men of science" (and maybe similar things like "scientific gents" or "scientific men") was typical. I think "men of science" would work in this passage, and it would also serve to underscore the gender dimension of Darwin's scientific circle. But I also agree that it's not a big deal is "scientists" stays, since at least by some definitions of "scientist", they were.--ragesoss (talk) 22:07, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

Didn't realise it was derogatory. My preference would be for "scientific gents" as these circles were very much of the gentry, unlike the up and coming surgeons and anatomists of the private medical schools and the University of London who were trying to overturn the gentlemanly Church of England establishment medical colleges and in some cases favouring transmutation. Desmond & Moore touch on that, and what I've read so far in Desmond's The Politics of Evolution gives a detailed picture. So, anyone against changing it to "scientific gents"? . . dave souza, talk 22:26, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

"scientific gents" seems awkward. I'm not that concerned by the issue of when the term "scientist" came into use since it is the most accurate word to describe them in English. Naturalists also might be ok but that has to many modern readers an emphasis on biology that isn't quite accurate in this context. JoshuaZ (talk) 22:40, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

Charles Darwin commemorative two pound coin 2009

thumb|150px|Charles Darwin commemorative two pound coin

Someone may wish to add to the commemoration section details about the Royal Mint issuing a commemorative two pound coin in 2009 to celebrate 200 years since his birth and 150 years since publication of "On the Origin of Species". I have uploaded an illustration of the coin which may also be included (if added to fair use). Other details can be found on the two pound coin page. --Delta-NC (talk) 21:17, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Thanks very much, that's excellent news. Will aim to sort that out shortly. . dave souza, talk 22:42, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

I've added the rationale to the image page and the image illustrating a paragraph about the coin as part of a new commemorations section. Thanks again, . dave souza, talk 20:17, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

im doing a project on him too its so hard —Preceding unsigned comment added by 210.49.42.224 (talk) 07:40, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

Try reading Charles Darwin: gentleman naturalist as a concise reliable source. . dave souza, talk 09:57, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

Disambiguating Darwin

For other people of the same surname, and places and things named after Darwin, see Darwin.

This was briefly removed, I've restored it as a useful link to a lot of other uses of the name. Any better ideas? . . dave souza, talk 20:43, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

The Genius of Charles Darwin

There is a TV show called The Genius of Charles Darwin, available from google video, made this year (the anniversary) by Richard Dawkins. I propose there be some mentioning of it in this article.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.156.109.200 (talk • contribs) 22:28, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, I saw it on Channel 4 and it's an interesting series about Dawkins, but historically inaccurate about Darwin so unfortunately not really appropriate here. Just for example, he shows the Galapagos finches instead of mockingbirds and puts that as though it came before the Punta Alta fossils. Nice thought, though. . . dave souza, talk 22:59, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

evolution by common descent should read evolution by descent with modification

The introduction is very well written. But the second last paragraph starts with a mistakable sentence:

"His 1859 book On the Origin of Species established evolution by common descent as the dominant scientific explanation of diversification in nature."

should better read:

""His 1859 book On the Origin of Species established evolution by descent with modification as the dominant scientific explanation of diversification in nature."

Os schipper (talk) 20:24, 25 December 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, that's an interesting point. I'll have a look through the sources and see what wording they support. . . dave souza, talk 00:36, 26 December 2008 (UTC)

Agree, that's close to what van Wyhe says and so I've modified it to "evolutionary descent with modification", since descent with modification is a redirect to evolution. . dave souza, talk 23:39, 26 December 2008 (UTC)

"demonstrated that all species of life have evolved over time from common ancestors through the process he called natural selection"

Even if I strongly believe that species evolved over time, I'm not sure the previous formulation is OK. Actually, he did not "prove". Instead, he provided a suitable scientific theory that was able to explain existing lifeform diversity and fossil record, and which is accepted today by virtually all scientists. This is not "proof". User:Dpotop 18:52, 26 December 2008 (UTC)

Proof is for whisky, especially at this time of year, and I don't see us using that term. However, a possible reformulation would be –

Charles Robert Darwin (12 February 1809 – 19 April 1882) was an English naturalist,^[I] whose meticulous observation and innovative thinking showed that the immense variety of life is explained by all species having evolved over time from common ancestors through the process he called natural selection.

It would be an option to add the Natural History Museum[6] or the American Museum of Natural History[7] as references. . dave souza, talk 23:22, 26 December 2008 (UTC)

I agree, he did not "prove" anything. He traveled the world, recorded what he saw, and came up with a theory that -at that time- seemd to explain what he saw. However, what he saw, most notably in the finch beak series, was small changes occuring within a species. This is known as microevolution or adaptation, and is a proven fact. He did not see finches turning into other birds, or anything else, just adapting within their species. I do not know how he drew the conclusion that animals evolved from a common ancestor, or macroevolution, from that. Also, one of the above edits: "he provided a suitable scientific theory that was able to explain existing lifeform diversity and fossil record..." Fossil record strongly disproves macroevolution, as there are no transition fossils showing one species turning into another. In addition, Darwin said that macroevolution occurs through natural selection, which destroys the bad mutations and promotes the good. How could this process possibly have developed a single cell? Cels are extremely complex, and each of their organelles can only work properly if all of the necessary parts are present at once. E.G.- the bacterial flagellum: The bacterial flagellum is a whiplike structure used by cells to move; it is, in essence, a small propeller. This bacterial flagellum has several parts, all of which must evolve at once -and in the right places, respective to the cell and each other- for the flagellum to work. How could this be? They could not possibly have evolved just-so. But if the parts mutated and appeared slowly, one at a time, over many centuries as Darwin said, they would not work. They would be of no use without the others, and "natural selection", by its own definition, must destroy them. Irreducable complexity, E.G. mousetrap example. I remind everyone that evolution -on a major, trans-species scale- is only a theory, and a poorly constructed one at that.

-The Skeptical Student --71.116.162.54 (talk) 04:32, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

Thank you for your contribution. However you really need to read more on the subject, pretty well every sentence you wrote contains errors. --Michael Johnson (talk) 07:46, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

While I agree with the previous response, I think to prevent this discussion from taking off and clogging this talk page with yet another rehash of the creation-evolution controversy anyone interested should consult Talk:Evolution/FAQ which explains why Wikipedia policy prevents giving the creationist viewpoint equal weight in an article such as this. Rusty Cashman (talk) 19:52, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

Poor student is a more apt name, because there are many papers outlining how the bacteria evolved a system of secretion that eventually generated strong motility. Remove a number of the parts responsible for this secretion system and it will still act as a secretion system, but not as a form of strong motility. Students should develop their capacity to do their own research. Sometimes reading long papers is involved. Nino137.111.47.29 (talk) 04:29, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

It is true that the argument for evolution is an inference to the best explanation, as most of science is, and thus it does seem a bit overstating it to call it a proof, which suggests deductive certainty based on undeniable premises. Calling it a demonstration is at least ambiguous between calling it a proof and treating it as if you can simply observe speciation in the past when you're not there, both of which would be a little misleading. So I do agree that it should be reworded. Demonstration is a bit strong for most scientific theories, perhaps with the exception of outright laws, which are fairly rare in science. Parableman (talk) 13:50, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

I have to say that I was left looking for a citation after the word "demonstrated". I am not aware of any books by Darwin that include demonstrations after the scientific method to affect the use of "demonstrated" in this context. I recommend that this sentence be re-written. Perhaps "...who realised and explained how all species of life have evolved over time from common ancestors through the process he called natural selection." fogus (talk) 02:13, 22 February 2009 (UTC)

Not bad, but it doesn't convey the mass of evidence he presented to support his ideas. A convenient phrase appears in the intro to a New Scientist article, and on that basis I've changed it to "who realised and presented compelling evidence that all species of life have evolved over time from common ancestors, through the process he called natural selection." Hope that conveys things better, further suggestions welcome. . . dave souza, talk 14:48, 22 February 2009 (UTC)

I like it. fogus (talk) 06:56, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

The debate on Darwin and Darwinism

In the same spirit as Channel 4's Christmas message, I offer the following on Darwin/Darwinism!

http://wainwrightscience.blogspot.com:80/

nitramrekcap 91.110.220.117 (talk) 16:35, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

darwin200.org

Dear Wikipedia Darwin article editor people It's worth including up on the links page for websites the www.darwin200.org URL for Darwin200 2009 bicentenary activities in the UK hosted by the Natural History Museum. Lots of links for students, schools and general public NqZooArchive1969 (talk) 14:05, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

There do seem to be some useful resources listed as well as events listing at Darwin 200: Celebrating Charles Darwin's bicentenary, Natural History Museum. It's topical, and I've added it to the external links at the same time as reordering the links and removing the following which seemed to me to be low value, or in the first case appropriate for the French wiki rather than this article:

• Institut Charles Darwin International
• Twelve different portraits of Charles Darwin, National Portrait Gallery, U.K.
• Template:Worldcat id
• The Darwin Digital Library of Evolution
• Darwin 200: Celebrating Charles Darwin's bicentenary, Natural History Museum
• Joint initiative of Research Councils UK aimed at educating public about evolution

Anyone feel differently? . dave souza, talk 18:29, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

Death and burial

Could somebody write up his death, and the 'corpse-snatch' which led to his burial at Westminster?

Johnbibby (talk) 19:08, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

See Darwin from Insectivorous plants to Worms#Death. . dave souza, talk 19:40, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

"In Our Time"

The 4 broadcasts this week have been magnificent[8]. Jim Moore on his death, and the 'corpse-snatch' was magnificent. Could somebody insert ref to these please?

Johnbibby (talk) 19:08, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

Curate's egg, rather appropriately. Good in parts, seemed to forget Darwin's career as a geologist. James Moore (biographer) was making a dramatic flourish, not really as good a source as those we're using and too much detail for this article. The issue is covered in Darwin from Insectivorous plants to Worms#Funeral on the basis of Desmond and Moore's Darwin, feel free to add more information with reliable sources, but "corpse-snatch" is unencyclopedic and overblown. . dave souza, talk 19:38, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

Consequences for Anthropology

On the basis of Darwins Theory a "periodic table of human sciences" could be developed. For more Information see: Tinbergen's four questions. This aspect could be used for a link in "see also".--193.171.79.65 (talk) 10:06, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

Restored portrait

Restored portrait, 5MB.

Ragesoss suggested restoring a portrait of Darwin and trying to get it promoted to featured picture in time for the 200th anniversary of Darwin's birth. Couldn't find an exact date for this one, although obviously it's from the end of his life. Not sure where it would fit best in the article. So dropping word here. The sooner the better, because it'd be asking a favor to get something onto the main page on this short notice. Best wishes, Durova^Charge! 01:28, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

• http://darwin-online.org.uk/content/frameset?itemID=A162&viewtype=image&pageseq=533
• http://jadepricephoto.com/darwiniana/postcards.htm

--ragesoss (talk) 01:42, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

Very nice. It could readily replace the 1880 picture of him with a hat on in the Commmemoration section, would also fit well with the theme of the Descent of Man, sexual selection, and botany section, but it's a bit crowded – could move the 1872 Cameron portait up a paragraph, push the "worms" caricature to the top of the section and try squeezing the portait in, but all rather tight so the Commemoration option is easier. Any ideas? . dave souza, talk 10:18, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

Will defer to the local regulars about placement. Encyclopedic use matters at featured picture candidates, so the sooner this goes into the article the sooner it can be nominated. Durova^Charge! 16:54, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

Thanks, have added it to Charles Darwin#Descent of Man, sexual selection, and botany in an arrangement which works for me – how do others feel? The picture also appears in Darwin from Insectivorous plants to Worms, will review the positioning and caption when doing some needed revisions to the lead of that article. . dave souza, talk 18:09, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

Darwin Day on the Main Page

Similarly, editors here might want to participate in creating new evolution and history of biology-related articles for the Main Page: Wikipedia:Did you know/Darwin Day 2009--ragesoss (talk) 02:01, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

As closely related to Darwin as possible would be good. I'm working on an article for Worms, and there are many other possibilities other than his books. Richard001 (talk) 22:56, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

Broken link

The link to Keynes ([9]) seems to be broken, assuming it once worked. I'm not familiar with this sort of code so I'll let someone else deal with it. Richard001 (talk) 06:21, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

Clicking on the page numbers still works, but the seeming link on Keynes isn't clickable. I can't fix it either, sorry. --Old Moonraker (talk) 08:08, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

Thanks, my error. It seems that the linking from the harvnb template is case sensitive,[10] works now. . dave souza, talk 09:08, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for that. More: [11] (two aren't clickable); [12]. Richard001 (talk) 22:57, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

Ooops, thanks for them. This time one reference had probably been attacked by a bot removing the year field when I'd a range of years in the "date" field, and the other was a reference I'd forgotten to add! The second linked reference, ref 78 Desmond & Moore 1991, p. 29, seems to work for me. Working on religion today, will try to find time to check them over. Much appreciated, dave souza, talk 23:53, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

Logical

The first paragraph says the explanation is "logical". This is sometimes thought to mean "a conclusion that is certain if the premises are true" (which would require a presentation of premises). Among logicians, it most often means "not illogical" or "not invalid". How would "coherent & consistent" be as substitutes? --JimWae (talk) 09:50, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

"Logic is the study of the principles of valid demonstration and inference", and if the premises of scientific theory (linked earlier in the paragraph) are "true", then the definition stands as natural selection is clearly neither illogical nor invalid. The proposed substitute appears to me to give undue weight to anti-evolution philosophy. I appreciate that the Problem of induction can be held to call all science into question, but in an article on an explicitly scientific topic that seems to me to be taking logic chopping too far. dave souza, talk 09:59, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

Chagas

I recently saw a documentary on Darwin on the History Channel and in it they reported that Darwin's illnesses were caused in part by Chagas, which he contracted in South America, I can't find a legit source so i'm not gonna add it in to the article, but if anyone does find a source it can be a good addition to the article. (I'm assuming that it's a true statement since the History Channel is pretty credible). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.238.166.77 (talk) 07:18, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

Thanks, it's a good point which is covered in detail in Charles Darwin's illness, linked in this article from the sentence "The cause of Darwin’s illness remained unknown, and attempts at treatment had little success.[64]" The Chagas hypothesis is one possibility, but there are others which also need to be given equal weight, and this main article has to be kept as concise as possible. The latest authoritative biography I have to hand, van Wyhe's Darwin: The Story of the Man and His Theories of Evolution, covers the issue by stating that "We will probably never know exactly what he suffered from, but the consequences are well recorded." Thus the current level of coverage in this article seems appropriate to me, the more detailed article can be improved as reliable sources are found. . dave souza, talk 08:14, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

re cause of illness

In response to the cause of Darwins illness is suspected to be Chagas transmitted by a blood sucking bug. it would make perfect sense considering that he suffered from heart palpitations. I also saw a piece on Darwin where they suspected that it was a manchuka bug. I can not seem to find that specific name but that was what the locals referred to as manchuka bug (the show I was watching.) When this bug was shown it looks exactly like a triatomine bug aka the kissing bug. I have included some reference on this bug. If I am correct in saying there should be in Darwin`s journal(s) from his time in south america, he apparently mentions that during one night he was bit by this supposed bug. Since the Centres for Disease Control and Prevention state that triatomine bugs do carry the protozone parasite symbioticly in there system, it would also make sense. it is suspected that several million have Chagas, most do not know they have it.

The centres for disease control and prevention mention the possible ways to get chagas is the bug defacating on you after being bit, eating food that wasnt properly cooked with the fecal matter of the bug in the food, congenitally, accidental lab exposure, blood transfusion or organ transplant. considering he was having stomach and heart problems which are linked to chagas, being bit by this bug makes the most sense.

The only way to be sure is either finding some autopsy of Darwin or confirming if his journals report this.

references

triatomine bug

kissing bug

centres for disease control and prevention: chagas

detailed info on chagas from cdc

from ~~elle quence~~ (i do apologize if anything in my post is not in compliance with wiki, first post and still getting use to where everything is) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Elle quence (talk • contribs) 04:59, 18 April 2009 (UTC)

Thanks, I've tidied up the formatting of this and will copy it to Talk:Charles Darwin's illness where more detailed discussion is appropriate. . dave souza, talk 08:33, 18 April 2009 (UTC)

Darwin with Ape body picture.

There was little "goodhumor" in Darwin's depiction as an ape in the popular media. That adjective should be removed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Thunder puck (talk • contribs) 17:41, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

Read Browne, pages as cited. And it's humour. . dave souza, talk 23:39, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

Darwin and his eldest son William Erasmus Darwin in 1842

Just to confirm, the picture that appears above this caption under the section about his children, that is really his 3 year old SON IN A DRESS?

Quite common for small children, right up to the early part of this century, and especially in the upper classes. --Michael Johnson (talk) 02:15, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

You might be interested in this site: "Throughout the 19th century, babies and toddlers were kept in dresses-- little different from those worn by their sisters. The dresses tended to be long, extending to the feet in the Empire style. Some time between the ages 3 or 6 years, depending on mother's whims, boys were "breeched" or put into various styles of smocks/tunics." - Nunh-huh 02:20, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

{{editsemiprotected}} On the section "Journey of the Beagle", the last line of the first paragraph, ends in 'calm shell'. This is a typo and should be corrected to 'clam shell'.

No, it is not a typo. The text is "calm spell" not "calm shell".Rusty Cashman (talk) 04:22, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

The source cited supports "calm spell", not "clam shell". -Nunh-huh 04:25, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

Darwin200

Happy Birthday! Cheers, Wassupwestcoast (talk) 13:47, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. Psalm 14:1 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.165.9.211 (talk) 20:43, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

"And the LORD opened the mouth of the ass." Numbers 22:28. - Nunh-huh 20:49, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

Evolution and historical linguistics

Mark Liberman points to an interesting quote from Origin of Species that demonstrates that the idea of descent with modification was borrowed by Darwin from historical linguistics, rather than the other way round.

It's time to include this aspect in articles related to the subject evolution, most of which don't even mention languages or linguistics at all, even when the application of the idea to other fields is discussed, as in Evolution#History of evolutionary thought. (As an aside, languages are not the only aspects of human culture to develop in a broadly analogous way to species, just think of musical genres, sports or games, but they are by far the most prominent aspect to do so.) Florian Blaschke (talk) 20:33, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

It's uncontroversial that Darwin was aware of ideas of languages diverging from a common stock over a very long time: see "Darwin Correspondence Project - Letter 346 — Darwin, C. R. to Darwin, C. S., 27 Feb 1837". "As far as I know everyone has yet thought that the six thousand odd years has been the right period but Sir J. thinks that a far greater number must have passed since the Chinese, the [space left in copy], the Caucasian languages separated from one stock." That refers to John Herschel writing to Charles Lyell, 20 Feb 1836.[13] "when we see what amount of change 2000 years has been able to produce in the languages of Greece & Italy or 1000 in those of Germany, France & Spain we naturally begin to ask how long a period must have lapsed since the Chinese, the Hebrew, the Delaware & the Malesass had a point in common with the German & Italian & each other." Desmond and Moore cover that on page 215, and on page 283 they refer to Hensleigh Wedgwood thinking it "absurd... that [a] tiger springing an inch further..." despite having a developmental approach to language. However, these are small mentions and we must be careful to avoid giving this too much weight in this article which is a broad overview. My suggestion would be to develop more about this in Inception of Darwin's theory#Transmutation and Development of Darwin's theory#Married life, and see if we can work out a very concise mention for the main article. . . dave souza, talk 22:03, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

Question

I was reading this article, and then I wondered something: why isn't Abraham Lincoln's birthday mentioned anywhere in the entire article? It seems only fitting to mention him since he was born on the same day as Darwin and they're both 200 today.Hcx0331 (talk) 02:27, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

Why would Abraham Lincoln be mentioned on the Charles Darwin article? Their sharing a birthday isn't really a strong enough association alone to link them... -- Consumed Crustacean (talk) 02:32, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

How often are two such famous people born on the same day? This isn't just some irrelevant piece of trivia. Actually, keeping this information off of Wikipedia detracts from the main purpose of Wikipedia. (Because this isn't like "what was Darwin's shoe size" -- that would be trivia.)Hcx0331 (talk) 02:40, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

The information was previously there, I removed it a day or so ago. I don't care particularly if you put it back in (not in the lead, though), but I'm afraid it is an irrelevant piece of trivia. The fact that such a thing occurs rarely does not make it important. Hadrian89 (talk) 02:47, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

You assert that because the odds of Darwin and Lincoln being born on the same day are small, it isn't worthy of inclusion. However, consider this: the fact that a person like Darwin was even born at all is pretty rare. Does that mean the entire Darwin article should be deleted? No, of course not. And neither should the fact about Darwin and Lincoln being born on the same day. I don't see why you're so adamant about deleting it.Hcx0331 (talk) 02:54, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

Er, I'm not adamant. I said I don't mind if you put it back in. All I stated was that it does count as trivia, because it is only a statistical curiosity, not something which had any documented influence on anyone's lives (except, now, us, it would seem). And, in the unlikely event that your counter-argument was actually in earnest: I never suggested that unlikelihood was a reason to exclude something, merely that it is not enough of a reason to include something. Hadrian89 (talk) 03:06, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

I just read WP:TRIVIA. I came to the conclusion that the birthday fact would probably fall under the category of trivia, until I realized something: the main point of WP:TRIVIA is to eliminate lists of trivia. Would keeping one sentence of what some consider to be trivial be in violation of this Wikipedia guideline?Hcx0331 (talk) 03:09, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

Not in my opinion. As before, just don't put it in the lead because that's where the most important information is summarised. Happy? Hadrian89 (talk) 03:12, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

It's completely trivial; in the past there were long discussions, endless edit wars, resulting in blocks, and finally consensus that it does not belong in this article. If you think it belongs, please try to obtain consensus that it does belong, here, on the talk page, before adding it unilaterally against previous consensus. -Nunh-huh 03:13, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

'long discussions, endless edit wars, resulting in blocks...' Haha. And I thought our discussion had gone on too long. I've only now noticed the archived debate, and I reckon the same goes for Hcx0331. Well, as already stated, my initial reaction was that it was not worth inclusion so I'm hardly going to try and contest the previous consensus. Hadrian89 (talk) 03:28, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

What is the special significance of the fact that they shared a birthday? Does it mean anything? Is there some cause and effect here that I am not aware of that links the two? There are billions of coincidences going on around us, what makes things worthy of reporting is whether they really are coincidences or whether they are more than that. The whole reason people are attracted to coincidences is because of an ingrained desire to find patterns regarding cause and effect. Include this sort of trivia and someone will be crying that you are not including trivia about astrology. Nino137.111.47.29 (talk) 04:37, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

"Tolled" not "Told"

In the Illness section:

"The strain told, and by June he was being laid up for days on end with stomach problems, headaches and heart symptoms. For the rest of his life, he was repeatedly incapacitated with episodes of stomach pains, vomiting, severe boils, palpitations, trembling and other symptoms, particularly during times of stress such as attending meetings or making social visits."

"Told" is the past tense of "tell." "Tolled" is the past tense of "Toll," as in "The strain tolled on Charles Darwin," although "took its toll" is the more common colloquial. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Christopherbutz (talk • contribs) 03:42, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

"Told" is actually perfectly correct. The verb is "tell"; the pertinent meaning is "to have a marked effect", and the past form is "told". - Nunh-huh 03:55, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

The "Charles Darwin" Foundation

As an Ecuadorian I'm so proud for the Galapagos Islands and the role they played in the formulation of the "Theory Of Evolution Through Natural Selection" by Charles Darwin. Thus I was disappointed when the article's Commemoration section failed to recognized this organization and the important work its scientific station does at the islands. To the "Charles Darwin Scientific Station" comes scientists from all over the world in order to understand and protect better such an inestimable natural place. Ecuador has a tradition to recognize all world class scientific personalities that has visited and worked in this land, such as Humboldt and La Condamine. Therefore, the name of Darwin is huge in this land. There are streets, parks and schools with his name. In fact, Darwin Street is the main avenue of Puerto Ayora, which is one of the Galapagos Islands largest towns. There's a very fanny thing in that avenue: In the last years, in Ecuador have proliferated many fundamentalist christian sects that believe in creationism, and strongly deny the Theory Of Evolution because they consider as a part of an evil plan to destroy the Christianity. Unfortunately, these sects have vigorously spread at the Galapagos Islands due its poor educated inhabitants. Paradoxically, one of these churches is located right at Darwin Street, and above the municipal sign with the name of the street, they have placed a big sign that states: "...and God created the world in seven days..." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.238.163.58 (talk) 15:08, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for the information, we do have a Charles Darwin Foundation article and it makes sense to mention it, but that article is based on its own website and to meet WP:V and WP:NOTE we really need to find third party sources about the foundation and its work in the Charles Darwin Scientific Station. . dave souza, talk 16:20, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

OK, found a news story about their contribution to a Darwin 2009 commemoration conservation project, so have added it. The Charles Darwin Foundation and Charles Darwin Research Station articles still need improvement. . dave souza, talk 19:02, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

I just read the added note. Thanks for taking it into account.--Pheuticus (talk) 19:27, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

To be an evolutionist, according to Darwin, is not necessarily to be an atheist

Of those who "are under the illusion that to be an evolutionist is essentially to be an atheist", Dinesh D'Souza — quite an expert in the field of religion — points out (in The Two Faces Of Darwin) that "when Darwin published his work on evolution, the American biologist Asa Gray wrote Darwin to say that his book had shown God's ingenious way of ensuring the unity and diversity of life. From Gray’s point of view, Darwin had exposed divine teleology. Darwin praised Gray for seeing a point that no one else had noticed. In later editions of his books, Darwin went out of his way to cite the English writer Charles Kingsley, who described evolution as compatible with religious belief. To the end of his life, Darwin insisted that one could be 'an ardent theist and an evolutionist'." Asteriks (talk) 22:55, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

You mean liberal clergymen interpreted natural selection as an instrument of God's design, with the cleric Charles Kingsley seeing it as "just as noble a conception of Deity".... Asa Gray discussed teleology with Darwin, who imported and distributed Gray’s pamphlet on theistic evolution, Natural Selection is not inconsistent with Natural Theology.... like it says in the article? Have a look at the cited sources, which cover these issues more accurately than Dinesh. "In later editions" should read p. 481 of the second edition published in 1860, onwards. See Charles Darwin's views on religion for more on the subject. . dave souza, talk 23:35, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

Link to "The Two Faces of Darwin" on "Townhall.com - the Leading Conservative and Political Opinion Website"

This edit provides a link to "The Two Faces of Darwin" on "Townhall.com - the Leading Conservative and Political Opinion Website". It seems to be an essay on Christian belief, rather than Darwin: "Evolution does seem to turn many Christians into unbelievers..." Should it remain? --Old Moonraker (talk) 22:56, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

I think we're supposed to link to reliable sources that provide useful information about the subject of our article: this is a discursive ruminative essay by a single person on a web page that will probably not be up for very long. It's a low-value link. I think we're better off without it. - Nunh-huh 23:19, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

See my comment above. There are good sources on this, [14] and [15] are of interest. . dave souza, talk 23:39, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

A question on the format of date of birth (and death)

{{editsemiprotected}} I'm wondering if Charles Darwin has archieved something so exceptional that his date of birth has to be "12 February 1809" instead of "February 12 1809". Considering that every other person on Wikipedia has the latter format on articles about them.

According to the manual of style most English-speaking countries outwith the U.S. use "day before month". --Old Moonraker (talk) 17:11, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

Further reading

The question's been raised that "Further reading" includes an "audio slideshow" and audiobooks which cannot be read. The section complies with WP:FURTHER, and the reason for not having the optional External links as the last section is that it includes templates providing a large number of internal links. Is this enough of a concern to go for a non-standard heading? . . . dave souza, talk 10:31, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

IMO it's such a minor distinction as to make no difference: the heading is fine as it is and this edit should stand.--Old Moonraker (talk) 11:50, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

Date of Birth shared with Lincoln

The Smithsonian magazine put on the cover that Darwin and Lincoln shared a birthday. I feel thoroughly thoroughly thoroughly vindicated in my much humbler ambition four years ago of merely ensuring this factoid was mentioned somewhere... (See Talk:Charles Darwin/Lincoln.) Vincent (talk) 08:06, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

Perhaps there can be one site for relevant facts called wikipedia and another site called triviapedia, where coincidence drowns out cause and effect. Nino137.111.47.29 (talk) 04:41, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

Darwin and eugenics

The article writes:"Galton named the field of study Eugenics in 1883, after Darwin’s death, and developed biometrics. Eugenics movements were widespread at a time when Darwin's natural selection was eclipsed by Mendelian genetics, and in some countries including Belgium, Brazil, Canada, Sweden and the United States, compulsory sterilisation laws were imposed. Following the use of Eugenics in Nazi Germany it has been largely abandoned throughout the world.[V]" These sentences have some lies: 1-Brazil and Belgium never had any compulsory sterilisation laws imposed.Both were catholic countries and eugenics hadn't any popular support there.Such as abortion today, eugenics was supported by jews and protestants. 2-Eugenics compulsory sterilisation was in law in countries such as United States and Sweden decades after the end of the Third Reich.Eugenics itself didn't fell after the end of Third Reich, in 1945.Eugenics decided to call themselves as neo-malthusianists, ecologists,etc.The goals were the same;just the titles were exchanged. 3- Natural selection wasn't eclipsed by Mendelian genetics, because both are scientific.One isn't against the other in any sense.Agre22 (talk) 22:42, 28 February 2009 (UTC)agre22

Thanks for bringing this up, looking through the cited sources there's no confirmation of laws in Belgium, Brazil, Canada, Sweden, so I've deleted these countries from the article. Wilkins says ""negative" eugenics, which involved the forced sterilisation of the "feebleminded"... became widely popular in America, Canada, Australia and other English speaking nations" but doesn't make it clear if there were laws apart from in the US so a better source is needed. The "eclipse of Darwinism" at that time meant that, to quote Edwards, "scepticism... surrounded Darwin's theory of evolution by natural selection 70 years ago and... Mendelism itself was regarded in some quarters as antithetical to it." We're not specific about how soon after Nazi misuse it has been "largely abandoned throughout the world", perhaps we can find more precise wording. . dave souza, talk 00:03, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

What did he die of?

Just old age? -OOPSIE- (talk) 05:42, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

Good question, while most brief biographies seem vague, the death certificate gave "Angina Pectoris Syncope" as the cause of death, according to Browne 2002, p. 495. More detail at Darwin from Insectivorous Plants to Worms#Death. . dave souza, talk 11:46, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

Cosans on Owen

This edit reverted and moved from article:

Owen agreed with Darwin that evolution occurred, but thought it was more complex than outlined in the Origin. Owen's approach to evolution can be seen as having anticipated the issues that have gained greater attention with the recent emergence of evo-devo theory, but in 1860 Owen’s objections were not well understood. Owen did praise, however, the Origin's description of Darwin's work on insect behavior and pigeon breeding as "real gems", but stated that the Origin did not have enough other observations on that level to support Darwin’s model of evolution over earlier theories of evolution such as that as had been proposed by Chamber's Vestiges.

This is excessive detail for this article, and could perhaps go into the more detailed subarticle or into Owen's bio. Don't have these references to hand, it's something I'd like to review before commenting. . dave souza, talk 23:37, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

Darwin vs. Kant

In the Who killed God debate, there has been a rivarly betwen Darwin and Kant on who spawned the greatest amount of atheism. If the debate ever comes up on this article, I would argue that Kant was more influential in the history if atheism than Darwin, since Kant had already built up a refutation to the ontological argument long before Darwin had even been born. ADM (talk) 19:35, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

New file File:Charles Robert Darwin by John Collier.jpg

Recently the file File:Charles Robert Darwin by John Collier.jpg (right) was uploaded and it appears to be relevant to this article and not currently used by it. If you're interested and think it would be a useful addition, please feel free to include it. Dcoetzee 20:16, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

Thanks, it's a great picture and it fits well in the commemoration section. . dave souza, talk 08:10, 4 April 2009 (UTC) revised 09:30, 4 April 2009 (UTC)

Section about biographies

It would be good to have a section listing the significant biographical books and films about him. AxelBoldt (talk) 02:03, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

This, as the main article, is already overweight, and there would be enough to make a new article which could cover the area, and be linked from the commemoration section. Possible titles: list of biographies of Charles Darwin, the Darwin industry or, to widen it a little, commemoration of Charles Darwin. Several appropriate links are already in the article, and the main bios are listed in the References section, mixed in with primary sources and more general references. Feel like starting that? . . dave souza, talk 07:14, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

I was thinking more along the lines of one paragraph or two listing the main biographies, so that people know where to go from here. I certainly don't know enough to write that paragraph though. AxelBoldt (talk) 21:28, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

Well, the most cited biographies we use are pretty obvious from the Citations and References sections, and not sure we should be giving more of a recommendation on the article page without a source for that recommendation. The talk page is easier, we can have our own opinions here. Barlow 1958 is Darwin's autobiography, Janet Browne's two volumes are commonly described as "magisterial" but have a few minor errors and tend to deviate from sequence at times. Lots of human interest stuff, gets a bit confusing to me at times. Desmond & Moore's Darwin is sold in the US as Darwin: the Life of a Tormented Evolutionist and is very readable but a bit controversial, tending to hammer the social context and exaggerate Darwin's fear of exposure. These are the main ones I've come across. Darwin Online and the Darwin Correspondence Project give a great deal of good info. Films and TV programmes tend to be a bit inaccurate in places, some are better than others. . dave souza, talk 22:08, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

Panoramas

If you fell neccesary, you can add two panaramas I made a few days ago and uploaded on the wikicommons. One of them is about outside the house and the other one inside. See them on the Spanish Wikipedia clicking HERE --Mario modesto (talk) 08:07, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

Thanks, these are really nice images, not sure how they best fit with the articles but they'll be a welcome addition to Down House for a start. . dave souza, talk 08:16, 18 April 2009 (UTC)

Mentioning Darwin gave up natural selection and became a Lamarckian

The article currently makes no mention of the historically important fact that Darwin himself converted from the natural selection theory of evolution to a Lamarckian environmentalist position in later editions of The Origin of Species, which went into 6 different editions by 1872. Hence I propose the following insert at the first Darwin quotation in the current section ‘Publication of the theory of natural selection’, which I also propose should be retitled ‘Publication of the Darwin’s theory of evolution’.

Proposed insert:

'However, even in the first edition of his book Darwin only claimed natural selection was the main means of selection, but not the only one. In the last sentence of its Introduction he said “Furthermore, I am convinced that natural selection has been the main but not exclusive means of modification.”

But by 1872 he had published six editions of the book with corrections and revisions, and in later editions in response to criticism of his theory of inheritance Darwin even gave up the theory of natural selection as the main selector of evolution, with its strong principle of inheritance, in favour of Lamarckian environmentalism, with a changing environment as the main selector. As C.D. Darlington wrote in 1950 in his Foreword to a new and first reprint of the otherwise unavailable first edition of The Origin:

"Let no one imagine, however, that, in the world of science, Darwin's theory has enjoyed an unchequered prosperity. On the contrary the dust of battle is only now beginning to settle on the hotly disputed ground....The most abiding source of trouble was that discovered by the Professor of Engineering at Edinburgh. Professor Fleming[sic] Jenkin pointed out in 1867, that any new variation appearing in one individual would be lost or swamped in later generations when that individual was compelled to cross with others of the old and established type, and its differences, as Darwin believed, blended in inheritance. Nature would never be able to keep any differences to select.

Darwin's defence against this objection was already prepared. He had hinted it in the first edition of The Origin of Species: at the end of the Introduction he had said that "Natural Selection has been the main but not exclusive means of modification." In later editions he hedged further. He fell back on the other means. These depended chiefly on the action of a changing environment: its direct effect in altering living things so as to suit it must be inherited. In adopting this view Darwin was giving up his own, and Wallace's, peculiar claim to originality: he was giving up the argument implied in the title of the book: and he was falling back on the discarded and disreputable theory of Lamarck." [p. xvii On the Origin of Species by means of Natural Selection first edition reprint in The Thinker's Library by Watts & Co, 1950.] '

But Darlington failed to establish Lamarck's theory was discarded or disreputable. In fact the theory of natural selection only became accepted in the mid-20th century with the ‘Mendelian-Darwinian synthesis’ in population genetics. But even by 1950 Darwinism was still not accepted in academia according to Darlington:

"In view of the triumph of his ideas it might be thought that Darwinism, in all civilised countries, would be taught as one of the foundations of thought, that in the universities everywhere it would be critically expounded and experimentally developed. That is true of its remote and general applications to such sciences as astronomy and geology. But where, as in its applications to ourselves, in the study of the genetics of men, and to the histories of nations, as exact knowledge of the principles of variation, hybridization and selection is required, we hear on every side nothing but confused and ignorant speculations. At the same time the foundation of Darwinism in the experimental study of evolution has largely been smothered in Darwin's own country. The Universities, with their museums and botanic gardens, are happy to forget what, in 1859, they were unable to resist. They contain no memorial of his work, and all the means of developing his doctrine they frustrate by an arrangement of teaching which the theory of evolution is not allowed to disturb. The old pedantic learning of botany and zoology, which Darwin treated as one subject, they continue to cleave asunder, burying the halves under their ancient schedules of instruction." [ibid pxviii-xix]. '

---

I also propose the following edit of the first sentence of the third paragraph of the article's current introduction:

His 1859 book ‘’On the Origin of Species’’ posited natural selection was the main selector in the evolution and origin of species, but by its 1872 sixth edition Darwin had abandoned this theory in favour of Lamarckian environmentalism with the changing environment as the main selector.[ref>C.D.Darlington FRS, pvii Foreword to On the Origin of Species by means of Natural Selection, first edition reprint in The Thinker's Library by Watts & Co, 1950.<ref/]

I shall implement this later edit provisonally for consideration now.

--Logicus (talk) 12:18, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

Thanks, but Watts has been superseded by a lot of historical research, and makes confusing use of the term Darwinism. It's a fair point that what Darwin called "use and disuse inheritance" was given increased weight in later editions, but he continued to hold that natural selection was the main evolutionary mechanism, even though other scientists favoured other mechanisms including what was later called neo-Lamarckism. This is covered in more detail in On the Origin of Species, I'll review adding a brief point about it in this article. . dave souza, talk 13:03, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

Darwin was influenced by many scientists, but Lamarck wasn't especially notable among them, AFAIK. Do you have a source that makes the claim that Lamarck was a leading influence on Darwin? The only real mention of Lamarck in the article is Darwin's rejection of his idea of independent lineages. If it's going to be mentioned in the infobox, the information needs to be reflected in the article. Adding material to the infobox that isn't present in the article is inappropriate. Guettarda (talk) 14:13, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

Logicus to Dave souza: Thanks Dave, but you surely need to justify your claim that Darlington FRS was unreliable and also his use of the term Darwinism is confusing. (I take it you refer to Darlington’s view as superseded rather than Watts, the publisher.) Are you therefore claiming that Darlington’s apparent claim that in later editions of The Origin Darwin changed to claiming the action of a changing environment is the chief selector is FALSE ? Are you therefore claiming Darwin still maintained natural selection was the main evolutionary selector in the final Edition 6, for example  ? I am shortly going to check through Editions 2 to 6, and especially 5 & 6 that postdate the 1967 Fleming Jenkin criticism. I would therefore be most grateful if you would either kindly cite your evidence for your claim against Darlington with Edition numbers and page numbers, or else withdraw your objection. And I would be grateful to know if your claim that Darlington is unreliable is based on your own reading of all the subsequent 5 editions of ‘’The Origin’’ (i.e. Original Research), or your source is some other author. And if the latter, who ?

And what exactly do you claim is covered in more detail in ‘’The Origin’’ ?

And in what respect was Darlington's use of the term Darwinism confusing ?

--Logicus (talk) 15:35, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

1: Bowler, Peter J. (2003), Evolution: The History of an Idea - 3rd Edition, University of California Press, ISBN 0-520-23693-9 p. 200 – "Some later commentators, especially Loren Eiseley (1958), have implied that Jenkin's review destroyed Darwin's confidence in the selection theory, and led him to abandon it in favor of Lamarckism. [Pangenisis does allow for a Lamackian effect] But there is no evidence that Darwin gave up natural selection, although Jenkin forced him to think seriously about its operation." See also Origin 6th edition (1872) p. 4, "Furthermore, I am convinced that Natural Selection has been the most important, but not the exclusive, means of modification."

2: "that what Darwin called "use and disuse inheritance" was given increased weight in later editions, but he continued to hold that natural selection was the main evolutionary mechanism, even though other scientists favoured other mechanisms including what was later called neo-Lamarckism."

3: In what way did Darlington think Darwinism applied to astronomy? Did he think that stars pass on heritable variations, or did he support Darwin's suggestion that the laws impressed on matter by the Creator include the fixed law of gravity? . . dave souza, talk 12:15, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

Logicus to Guettarda: I know of no Wiki rule that things can only be in an info box if they are also in the article, so could you kindly refer me to where it is stated ? But I must admit I suspect you may have just made it up. So I restore the info pro tem for the article to include something on Lamarck's significant influence on Darwin, in line with Gould's opinion in the Wiki article on Lamarck quoted in its Legacy section.

Briefly here, on one aspect of Lamarck’s influence see Darwin's acknowledgment on p362 of the Watts edition of ‘’The Origin’’, and also see the Wiki article on Lyell, who influenced Darwin, himself massively influenced by Lamarck, who founded evolution theory and thus a most significant influence on all evolutionists. Also in his online article on Darwin @ http://darwin-online.org.uk/darwin.html van Whye says:

"Darwin then sought to explain how living forms changed over time. He was familiar with the evolutionary speculations proposed earlier by his grandfather Erasmus Darwin and by the great French zoologist Jean-Baptiste Lamarck."

--Logicus (talk) 16:58, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

Logicus to Dave Souza: Thanks very much indeed for providing these references to try and answer some of my questions. This issue gets most interesting, but we need to sharpen the logical analysis here. First on your para 1, the issue raised by Darlington is whether or not Darwin later gave up his theory that natural selection is the ‘’main’’ selector of evolution in favour of the theory that changing environment is the ‘’main’’ selector. Thus the issue is not whether Darwin ever gave up natural selection as a selector, and Darlington does not claim he did. Rather the issue is whether he changed to the theory that changing environment is the ‘’main’’ selector, and natural selection only a minor selector. Thus the Bowler quotation is inconclusive on this issue, and I fear an instance of the illogical rambling typical of academic historians of science, quixotically tilting at a red-herring.

But where your quotations become most interesting and relevant is in your Darwin quotation from the 6th edition, because of its subtle revision of the 1st edition’s claim that natural selection has been the ‘’main’’ selector to the significantly weaker claim that it has been ‘’the most important’’ selector. Thus logically it could be the most important of many different selectors as the most frequent of them all, but still not the main selector but rather only a minority selector because the majority of selection is by a conjunction of various others selectors. Depending on the classification of selectors, environmental ones could possibly be in the majority.

Thus deciding whether Darlington’s claim is true or false may boil down to having to count the proportion of non natural selection selectors Darwin appealed to in the 6th edition. What do you think ?

On your para 2, is it a Bowler quotation ? What are we to make of it ? That Darwin still gave “use and disuse inheritance” less than 50% of the evolutionary mechanisms in later editions, in spite of increasing its weight, and natural selection never less than 51% ? Is that true ?

Yes, Darlington’s astronomy comment is surely bizarre.

So in conclusion, do you know where we should be looking in The Origin Ed6 to most easily determine what proportion of evolution Darwin attributed to natural selection, and thus whether Darlington was wrong or right ? (I suppose the illiterate incompetence of academic historians of science will entail the need for doing some Original Research. God forbid. ☺)

--Logicus (talk) 14:00, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

dave to Logicus, come in.... which part of Origin 6th edition (1872) p. 4, "Furthermore, I am convinced that Natural Selection has been the most important, but not the exclusive, means of modification." don't you follow? While Darlington is understandably incompetent by today's standards, Bowler is good. . . dave souza, talk 14:42, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

And the next sentence after your above quote is "But already Darwin's theorizing had extended in novel directions." Any reliable source discussing Darwin will clarify that Lamarck was not a significant influence on Darwin. Johnuniq (talk) 00:37, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

When did the theory of natural selection first come to be accepted by a great majority of the scientific community ?

The article’s first paragraph currently claims

“[Darwin’s] theory of natural selection came to be widely seen as the primary explanation of the process of evolution in the 1930s,[1 “

But contrary to this, the Wikipedia article History of evolutionary thought claims the theory was not widely accepted until the 1940s:

“The debate over Darwin's work led to the rapid acceptance of the general concept of evolution, but the specific mechanism he proposed, natural selection, was not widely accepted until the 1940s.”

And Darlington’s 1950 report on Darwinism in academia in the immediately above section suggests it was not until after 1950.

I therefore flag the current dating for a reliable citation.

I propose a vaguer dating to ‘until the mid 20th century’ might be an easy resolution.

But I suggest the reference should be to ‘THE theory of natural selection’ rather than Darwin’s inasmuch as it was not specifically Darwin’s theory of natural selection that came to be accepted. --Logicus (talk) 13:37, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

(ec)This article has a reliable source (John van Whye), while the history of evolutionary thought article lacks one. As the modern synthesis took hold over a period of time, it's difficult to draw a clear line as to when an idea could be considered "the primary explanation". Nonetheless, van Whye has a better perspective than did Darlington. I'm going to undo the tagging, since the statement is already cited to a reliable source...that isn't a comment on your concern, but the tag you added is inappropriate. Guettarda (talk) 13:58, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

Logicus: This article has a source, but who is to say it is reliable ? I have the impression the 1940s is quite widely accepted. And in what respect,. if any, does van Whye have a better perspective than Darlington? Surely Darlington was much closer to the event than van Whye, with a consequently better perspective ?

I am going to put a clarification tag I hope you find more appropriate. I request the actual quote from van Whye and also his reliable evidence, if any, for his 1930s claim. Otherwise I propose my suggested edit.

--Logicus (talk) 16:28, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

As Guettarda mentioned, there is no point at which one could say that natural selection (or any major new explanation) switched from being "rejected" to "accepted". The John van Whye reference concludes "1930s". Perhaps it wasn't until a few years later, but it would be misleading to say "mid 20th century" because that suggests a date which is too late. A reader would want an indication of when natural selection was accepted, but it is an inconsequential point as to whether we can prove it was 1930 or 1940 or 1950. Johnuniq (talk) 01:29, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

Wot compelling evidence ?

The article’s opening sentence currently claims

“{Darwin] was an English naturalist[I] who realised and presented compelling evidence that all species of life have evolved over time from common ancestors, through the process he called natural selection.”

But what compelling evidence, if any, was this ? Certainly it seems few regarded Darwin’s theory as compelling in his day and thus that he had presented any compelling evidence. It would seem the scientific community did not find any compelling evidence for natural selection until the 20th century.

I flag this claim for a reliable citation, but propose the following edit would be less contentious

“{Darwin] was an English naturalist[I] who claimed that all species of life have evolved over time from common ancestors, through the process he called natural selection.” --Logicus (talk) 13:56, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

I'm not sure what you mean. Why do you not see his evidence as "compelling"? Can you source that assertion? Withing a few decades of the publication of Origin the idea of "descent with modification" was accepted almost universally. The mechanism he proposed - natural selection - was accepted as a mechanism of change, but it took a while for it to be accepted as the main mechanism of change. No one seriously doubted natural selection, they just doubted whether it was powerful enough. Guettarda (talk) 14:05, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

Logicus to Guettarda: Thanks, but I find this response very confused. I repeat my simple question “But what compelling evidence, if any, was this ?” The request is to be told what specific evidence this refers to that was compelling. For example, in the case of Newton’s theory of gravity it has been claimed that the successfully predicted return of Halley’s comet was the compelling evidence that persuaded the French Academy to discontinue its prize for refuting Newton. So please tell me what the specific compelling evidence presented in The Origin or elsewhere was. I am not claiming there was none, as was the case in Newton’s Principia. If there was such, I just want to know what it was please.

On your other points, surely natural selection as the primary selector, based on the strong principle of inheritance explicitly appealed to by Darwin in the article’s quotation, was not accepted, and especially not by Fleming Jenkin, contrary to your claim that it was.

And surely descent with modification was accepted long before Darwin’s book, in Lamarck’s founding theory of evolution ?

I reflag the claim, this time with the clarification tag instead, which I hope is more to your liking. In line with Wikipedia verification etiquette policy, I shall be requiring provision of the quotation from a reliable source that identifies the allegedly compelling evidence. If there was any such, then the question then becomes why it was not regarded as compelling at the time. (Certainly there was a compelling refutation of Darwin's gradualism in the discontinuous fossil record.)

--Logicus (talk) 16:10, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

It seems you want a reliable source about how compelling was Darwin's evidence for the items mentioned. The reference at the end of the second sentence ([16]) is satisfactory; it contains "Although Darwin convinced most of the scientific community within 15-20 years that descent with modification, or evolution, was true, many rejected natural selection as the primary mechanism ... Nevertheless to the end of his life Darwin was regarded as a great scientific revolutionary who had overturned the ideas of his generation." The reference also discusses the actual evidence, and provides further references. Another quote from reference [1]: "In 1909 over 400 scientists and dignitaries from 167 different countries gathered at Cambridge to celebrate the centenary of Darwin's birth and the fiftieth anniversary of the publication of On the Origin of Species. The event was an unprecedented success - never before had such a celebration been held, not for an institution or a nation - but for an individual scientist."

In science, major changes in outlook generally take a significant time, and certainly require compelling evidence; if the only thing we knew about Darwin was that the 1909 celebration occurred, that would be sufficient to justify the lead. Johnuniq (talk) 00:25, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

Logicus to Johnuniq: No, I do not want a source for how compelling Darwin's evidence for evolution by natural selection was. I just want identification of the specific evidence that was allegedly compelling, with a source for that identification. Thanks for your comments but they are unfortunately logically irrelevant to rebutting my challenge. Rather you do not even seem to notice that the quotation you provide from van Wyhe implies the evidence Darwin presented for evolution by natural selection was not compelling, since it tells us many scientists rejected natural selection. On this evidence from van Wyhe then, it seems perfectly justified to edit out the claim of compelling evidence for natural selection as I originally proposed, which I shall now do.

I fully agree with you that major changes in science take a significant time, such theories typically being born well refuted and without any successfully predicted novel facts, which take some time to produce as the theory is developed. The heliocentric revolution proposed by Copernicus had to wait until the 1729 compelling evidential novel fact of stellar aberration predicted by the conjunction of the hypothesis of the earth's annual solar orbit with that of the finite speed of light. And its seems Newton’s theory had to wait until the 1759 return of Halley’s comet. And it seems acceptance of Darwin’s natural selection theory of evolution had to wait until the mid-20th century in the so-called ‘ Mendelian-Darwinian’ synthesis. But what the compelling evidential novel fact(s) was/were that induced it seems to be something of a mystery. Do you know ?

--Logicus (talk) 12:15, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

Off the top of my head, variation under domestication, variation in nature, the struggle for existence and natural selection. Took a while for its significance to overcome 19th century teleology, but got there in the end. . dave souza, talk 12:27, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

Logicus to dave souza:Thanks for the top of your head, but sorry but I just don’t understand it. Is this supposed to be four separate pieces of evidence ? But what did Darwin predict about any of these four phenomena that was novel, confirmed and compelling ? Maybe the simple truth is that Darwin did not present any compelling scientific evidence, which was why his theory was quite rationally not widely accepted until after the neo-Darwinian synthesis ?

Whether Darwin made and novel, confirmed or compelling predictions is fairly irrelevant to whether he 'realized and presented compelling evidence'. The four examples given by Dave Souza are examples of evidence presented in the origin of species and IMHO the consensus among scientists is that these are compelling evidence. Cubathy (talk) 14:56, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

To Logicus -- Since the sentence in question states that the evidence was compelling, I think that a reference showing that the evidence was in fact compelling is the only sort that would be germane. I'm for reverting to the previous wording. Agathman (talk) 13:07, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

Not clear to me what you're proposing, which previous wording? Thanks, dave souza, talk 13:27, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

Sorry, I was vague. I'm agreeing with the wording "...who realised and presented compelling evidence that...", since it is apparent (and cited in refs) that the evidence was found compelling at the time, to say nothing of the fact that vast amounts of that evidence are available linked to this lead. Agathman (talk) 13:34, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

Tentatively added a reference. Doesn't completely satisfy the concerns expressed above, so please take it away if it's not thought useful. --Old Moonraker (talk) 13:42, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

I don't think this reference is useful here because 'compelling' is referringto Darwin's rhetoric rather than the body of evidence. I'm in agreement with Agathman that the current references do more than enough to support the usage of the word.Cubathy (talk) 13:47, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

Logicus to All: Can none of you people see the plain utterly absurd stupidity of the article's current first paragraph in claiming on the one hand in its first sentence that Darwin presented compelling evidence for evolution by natural selection, but on the other hand then inconsistently claiming in its second sentence that his theory that natural selection is the primary selector of evolution was not widely accepted until the 1930s ? For if the latter claim is true, then clearly the evidence Darwin presented was not compelling at the time, if ever, contrary to the contentious and unsourced claim of the first sentence that it was.

I cannot see why the more modest and far less contentious proposed opening sentence edit to

‘Darwin claimed that all species of life have evolved over time from common ancestors mainly by the process he called natural selection ‘

is not acceptable to some. This does not preclude the article subsequently discussing whether the evidence Darwin presented for evolution mainly by natural selection was scientifically compelling or not, and thus whether scientists were irrational for some 80 years in not accepting it, or whether it required some 80 years or more to acquire some compelling scientific evidence. (But note that nobody in this discussion has yet identified what exactly that alleged compelling evidence was, including Souza. What specific novel prediction did Darwin's theory make that was also evidentially confirmed at the time ? The 1713 second edition of Newton's Principia predicted the return of Halley's comet some 45 or so years later, and it did, to provide the first compelling scientific evidence for it in the opinion of some philosophers and historians of science. But what novelty, if any, did Darwin ever predict ?

--Logicus (talk) 14:35, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

Darwin's evidence, both for common descent and natural selection as the primary means of change, was considered to be compelling more or less immediately. The sentence about acceptance of natural selection in the 1930s oversimplifies the situation. Natural selection was broadly accepted right away, from about 1859 to 1900, but when the science of genetics developed, there was a period from about 1900-1930 when many people thought that Darwin's idea of small, imperceptible changes acted on by selection was untenable. This was mainly because most of the mutations studied early in the history of genetics were fairly large, dramatic ones. The modern synthesis, which united genetics and evolutionary biology, came about in the 1930s and 1940s, and reaffirmed the essential validity of Darwin's model, including the primary role of selection, much of it quite gradual. The article does already make clear that the evidence for common descent was accepted pretty much from the start. Agathman (talk) 15:01, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

Logicus to Agathman: And what is your evidence for this string of unsourced and unevidenced dogmatic assertions ? They are clearly in conflict with the Wikipedia articles that claim natural selection was not accepted as the main evolutionary selector until the 20th century, so perhaps you had better start rewriting them. Why can nobody identify what the alleged compelling evidence was that Darwin presented ? --Logicus (talk) 15:28, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

You're right in that I've overstated the initial level of acceptance of natural selection as the mechanism, but all the rest the history can be found in The eclipse of Darwinism. Acceptance of natural selection as the mechanism declined in the early 20th century; the section in that article on saltationism is relevant, but I may try to expand it a bit, as it was an important aspect of the problem. Agathman (talk) 14:39, 22 April 2009 (UTC)

Why can nobody identify what the alleged compelling evidence was that Darwin presented ?

It's really not that important for our purposes. There are sources that identify it as such. That's all we need. Guettarda (talk) 15:35, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

Logicus to Guettarda: Exactly who is the royal ‘our’ here and what are your purposes ? For my part, speaking for Wikipedia of course, our purposes here in its history of science articles include the important aim of being reliable and accurate in claims made about major theory change in the history of science and its rationale and dating because this is important for determining scientific method, which Wikipedia claims to be based upon empirical evidence. And if Wikipedia claims that some major theory change was caused by compelling evidence, then there is clearly a pedagogical duty to identify what that evidence was.

Now in this case you claim there are sources that identify that evidence that was found compelling by Darwin's contemporaries, presumably sufficiently compelling to cause them to convert to his theory that natural selection is the main selector of evolution (which theory we learn from the article was not widely accepted until the mid 20th century ☺).

Could you therefore please now kindly identify those sources and also identify that evidence which those sources claim Darwin’s contemporaries found compelling ?

--Logicus (talk) 12:19, 22 April 2009 (UTC)

I have provided you links to our governing policies and guidelines. If you choose to doubt what I say, you should really read them yourself. I have already answered the rest of your question in my comment below from 15:47 on the 21st. Guettarda (talk) 15:52, 22 April 2009 (UTC)

To clarify - having seen a steady stream of Darwin scholars this semester, it's safe to say that while some opinions differ (John Lynch, for example, doesn't see it as a Darwinian "revolution", since it took 70 years from Origin the modern synthesis, while John van Whye disputes the common wisdom that Darwin sat on his ideas for 20 years before publishing them). But no one disputes the impact that Darwin had on scientific thought within his lifetime, the impact that Origin had on scientific thought. In the 40s and 50s Darwin's contemporaries were aware of his ideas, encouraged him to publish them, but did not believe in evolution. Publication of Origins changed that - because of the compelling arguments. It doesn't matter if we find his arguments compelling. What matters is that we have good sources that say that his contemporaries found them compelling. Guettarda (talk) 15:47, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

• And surely descent with modification was accepted long before Darwin’s book, in Lamarck’s founding theory of evolution

  Descent with modification from a common ancestor was original, as was the mechanism. Lamarck's lineages had distinct origins. Guettarda (talk) 15:21, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

Logicus: This point is logically irrelevant. For the sentence being challenged here makes no mention of common ancestry. Rather it says:

"His 1859 book On the Origin of Species established evolutionary descent with modification as the dominant scientific explanation of diversification in nature.[2]"

Do you therefore wish to revise this with the following sentence ?:

"His 1859 book The Origin of Species established evolutionary descent with modification from common ancestors as the dominant scientific explanation of diversification in nature.[2]"

This sentence emphasises the specificity of what The Origin is claimed to have established that was not already fairly widely established.

--Logicus (talk) 12:26, 22 April 2009 (UTC)

When did that become the sentence under discussion? I thought it was the first sentence in the article -- Charles Robert Darwin FRS (12 February 1809 – 19 April 1882) was an English naturalist[I] who realised and presented compelling evidence that all species of life have evolved over time from common ancestors, through the process he called natural selection. And that sentence clearly does make reference to common ancestry. Agathman (talk) 14:39, 22 April 2009 (UTC)

Logicus to Agathman: Yes, a good question Agathman, given the topic of this section is challenging the very first sentence of the article. So I try to reconstruct its displacement onto challenging the first sentence of the third para that happened here, at least in order to demonstrate the sort of intellectual mayhem caused by logically confused Wiki Admins.

In response to the question I had raised at 13:56, 20 April 2009 of what compelling evidence, if any, Darwin presented for his theory of evolution ‘’mainly by natural selection’’, at 14:05, 20 April 2009 Guettarda claimed on a quite different issue

“Withing[sic!] a few decades of the publication of Origin the idea of "descent with modification" was accepted almost universally.”

Thus Guettarda invalidly shifted the question I had raised about the date of acceptance of Darwin's natural selection theory of evolution to the logically quite different question of whether “descent with modification” was accepted almost universally within a few decades of the publication of ‘’The Origin’’., which is the issue raised by the first sentence of the third para, but which I had not yet got around to challenging if it were to mean ‘’subsequent’’ decades rather than ‘’preceding’’ decades.

And my response to Guettarda’s logically shifted question at 6:10, 20 April 2009 was:

“And surely descent with modification was accepted long before Darwin’s book, in Lamarck’s founding theory of evolution ? “

Now after this point at 15:21, 21 April 2009 Guettarda elected to respond invalidly as though I had been challenging whether the theory of Darwin’s book was original in any way, rather than challenging whether descent with modification was only established after Darwin’s book. Thus in effect he raised the issue of whether the first sentence of the third para is true or false.

And since I had that sentence on the shelf for challenge anyway, it seems I then responded such as to create the false impression it was the sentence being challenged in this section.

But the whole issue of the truth-value of the first sentence of the third para can maybe easily be resolved by determining whether it is true or false. And here I submit it is most likely false because “evolutionary descent with modification as the dominant scientific explanation of diversification in nature.” had already been largely accepted and established before the publication of The Origin.

But whatever, does this answer your question ?

--Logicus (talk) 22:18, 22 April 2009 (UTC)

<ri>Umm, no. You seem more than a little confused. Your initial comment said:

But what compelling evidence, if any, was this ? Certainly it seems few regarded Darwin’s theory as compelling in his day and thus that he had presented any compelling evidence.

In response to this, I corrected your misconception that "few regarded Darwin’s theory as compelling in his day". You responded by saying that:

And surely descent with modification was accepted long before Darwin’s book, in Lamarck’s founding theory of evolution ?

This suggested that you didn't understand the difference between Darwin's ideas of branching descent, and Lamarck's more lineal idea. Again, I tried to explain the difference to you. In response to my attempt to correct your misconception, you said:

This point is logically irrelevant. For the sentence being challenged here makes no mention of common ancestry.

Unfortunately, if you look back to the start of this section, you said:

“{Darwin] was an English naturalist[I] who realised and presented compelling evidence that all species of life have evolved over time from common ancestors, through the process he called natural selection.” [Emphasis added]

Mind-boggling. At this point, I think the only thing left to do is to refer you to our guideline on Wikipedia:Disruptive editing and this essay on Wikipedia:Tendentious editing. Guettarda (talk) 23:42, 22 April 2009 (UTC)