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→‎European Americans: Great idea rejected
→‎Category:Poles of Armenian descent: Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2009 May 18
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*'''Keep''' – we've had dozens of these and agreed time after time that Fooian Barians is ambiguous except for Fooian Americans. However we have the well-fledged [[:Category:Armenians by country of citizenship]] (note that according to this American Armenians are Armenians with US citizenship, ie Armenian Americans). It seems to me that a Pole of Armenian descent is not necessarily a Polish Armenian so keep both (eg father Polish, mother Armenian). [[User:Occuli|Occuli]] ([[User talk:Occuli|talk]]) 10:02, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
*'''Keep''' – we've had dozens of these and agreed time after time that Fooian Barians is ambiguous except for Fooian Americans. However we have the well-fledged [[:Category:Armenians by country of citizenship]] (note that according to this American Armenians are Armenians with US citizenship, ie Armenian Americans). It seems to me that a Pole of Armenian descent is not necessarily a Polish Armenian so keep both (eg father Polish, mother Armenian). [[User:Occuli|Occuli]] ([[User talk:Occuli|talk]]) 10:02, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
**''It appears that [[:Category:Armenians by country of citizenship]] all need renaming.<br />--[[User:William Allen Simpson|William Allen Simpson]] ([[User talk:William Allen Simpson|talk]]) 09:06, 18 May 2009 (UTC)
**''It appears that [[:Category:Armenians by country of citizenship]] all need renaming.<br />--[[User:William Allen Simpson|William Allen Simpson]] ([[User talk:William Allen Simpson|talk]]) 09:06, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

*'''Delete''' unnecessary ethnic category; purely subjective as has been described before. [[User:Carlossuarez46|Carlossuarez46]] ([[User talk:Carlossuarez46|talk]]) 23:23, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
*'''Delete''' unnecessary ethnic category; purely subjective as has been described before. [[User:Carlossuarez46|Carlossuarez46]] ([[User talk:Carlossuarez46|talk]]) 23:23, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

*'''REverse Merge''' [[:Category:Polish Armenians]] to this category. A lot of effort was put into converting these dual nationality categories into the form Booians of Fooian descent, and these categories should conform. A Polish Armenian could be a Pole of Armenian descent or an Armenian of Polish descent. [[User:Peterkingiron|Peterkingiron]] ([[User talk:Peterkingiron|talk]]) 23:42, 17 May 2009 (UTC)
*'''REverse Merge''' [[:Category:Polish Armenians]] to this category. A lot of effort was put into converting these dual nationality categories into the form Booians of Fooian descent, and these categories should conform. A Polish Armenian could be a Pole of Armenian descent or an Armenian of Polish descent. [[User:Peterkingiron|Peterkingiron]] ([[User talk:Peterkingiron|talk]]) 23:42, 17 May 2009 (UTC)
**In principle, deleting this category followed by renaming [[:Category:Polish Armenians]] to this category would match the others in [[:Category:Polish people by ethnic or national origin]]. However, that would require a different listing (CfR). This listing is to delete a category that does not conform to '''policy''' in its '''definition and contents'''.<br />--[[User:William Allen Simpson|William Allen Simpson]] ([[User talk:William Allen Simpson|talk]]) 09:06, 18 May 2009 (UTC)
**This listing is to delete a category that does not conform to '''policy''' in its '''definition and contents'''. In principle, deleting this category could be followed by renaming [[:Category:Polish Armenians]] to match the others in [[:Category:Polish people by ethnic or national origin]]. However, that would require a different listing (CfR). Done, see [[Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2009 May 18#Category:Polish Armenians]].<br />--[[User:William Allen Simpson|William Allen Simpson]] ([[User talk:William Allen Simpson|talk]]) 09:06, 18 May 2009 (UTC)


==== Category:Poles of Jewish descent ====
==== Category:Poles of Jewish descent ====

Revision as of 10:49, 18 May 2009

< May 10 May 12 >

May 11

Category:Poles of Armenian descent

Category:Poles of Armenian descent - Template:Lc1
This page lists Polish citizens of partial Armenian ancestry or national descent. For those whose Armenian descent is half or more see Category:Polish Armenians.
Nominator's rationale: Delete. Violates Wikipedia categorization policy and guidelines.
  • Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons#Categories requires:
    • Category tags regarding religious beliefs and sexual orientation should not be used unless two criteria are met:
      • The subject publicly self-identifies with the belief or orientation in question;
      • The subject's beliefs or sexual orientation are relevant to the subject's notable activities or public life, according to reliable published sources.
  • Wikipedia:Naming conventions (categories)#Heritage requires:
    • In addition to the requirement of verifiability, living people must have self-identified as a particular heritage, while historical persons may be identified by notable association with a single heritage.
      • Heritage categories should not be used to record people based on deduction, inference, residence, surname, nor any partial derivation from one or more ancestors.
      • The place of birth is rarely notable.
  • Wikipedia:Categorization/Gender, race and sexuality#Special subcategories requires:
The basis for creating such a category is not the number of individuals who could potentially be filed in the group, but whether there's a specific cultural context for the grouping beyond the mere fact that [persons] of that ethnic background happen to exist.
--William Allen Simpson (talk) 23:56, 11 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Poles of Jewish descent

Category:Poles of Jewish descent - Template:Lc1
This category is for Polish people of either partial or full Jewish descent who did not consider themselves Jewish.
Nominator's rationale: Delete. Violates Wikipedia categorization policy and guidelines.
  • Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons#Categories requires:
    • Category tags regarding religious beliefs and sexual orientation should not be used unless two criteria are met:
      • The subject publicly self-identifies with the belief or orientation in question;
      • The subject's beliefs or sexual orientation are relevant to the subject's notable activities or public life, according to reliable published sources.
  • Wikipedia:Naming conventions (categories)#Heritage requires:
    • In addition to the requirement of verifiability, living people must have self-identified as a particular heritage, while historical persons may be identified by notable association with a single heritage.
      • Heritage categories should not be used to record people based on deduction, inference, residence, surname, nor any partial derivation from one or more ancestors.
      • The place of birth is rarely notable.
  • Wikipedia:Categorization/Gender, race and sexuality#Special subcategories requires:
The basis for creating such a category is not the number of individuals who could potentially be filed in the group, but whether there's a specific cultural context for the grouping beyond the mere fact that [persons] of that ethnic background happen to exist.
--William Allen Simpson (talk) 23:37, 11 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Suicides by firearm in Arizona

Propose deleting Category:Suicides by firearm in Arizona - Template:Lc1
This comes under the heading of "non encyclopedic and generally bad ideas". Categories related to people can be "delicate" (see Wikipedia:Categorization of people) and this is one of them. There isn't a policy on this specifically, but general principles seem to indicate a clear view that it's probably a bad idea:
  1. While each suicide is a human tragedy, and a few people may find a list of suicides useful, Wikipedia is WP:NOT#NEWS and articles (and categories) don't exist just because material might be interesting or useful to a few people. Being a suicide by firearms in a given state may be a news item but it's just not at heart encyclopedic.
  2. It's also likely to have very few members - "people notable enough to have an article on Wikipedia, who died by suicide, using a firearm, in Arizona..."?
  3. A third reason is that a Category:Suicides might be viable, but this is far more specific than that broad category; we generally try hard to avoid non-encyclopedic cross categorizations; "People in region X who commited suicide by means Y" seems a very clear case of non-encyclopedic cross-categorization. ("People in North Dakota who were hit by a car while DUI"? "Suicides by jumping in Georgia"?)
FT2 (Talk | email) 20:47, 11 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Category:War of 1812 prisoners of war

Propose renaming Category:War of 1812 prisoners of war to Category:Prisoners of the War of 1812
Nominators rationale: Rename this would be the same name structure as the rest of the categories in Category:People of the War of 1812. Green Squares (talk) 20:39, 11 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Borders of Palestine

Propose renaming Category:Borders of Palestine to Category:Borders of the Palestinian territories
Nominator's rationale: Rename. The Palestinian territories are still not considered to be a country. Eliyak T·C 20:18, 11 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Egypt-Palestine border

Category:Egypt-Palestine border - Template:Lc1
Nominator's rationale: Delete. There is still no country called Palestine, so this category is somewhat biased. Also, it is practically empty. Eliyak T·C 20:14, 11 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Upmerge to its parents one subcat and regardless of how it's named, not likely to increase. Carlossuarez46 (talk) 20:48, 11 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment and upmerge - there may currently be no country called Palestine, but there has been. As such, this is no less likely a title for a category than, say, Category:Borders of Yugoslavia. Despite that, this particular category is likely to be so small as to be practically worthless, so upmerge per Carlossuarez. Grutness...wha? 23:49, 11 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Well as you probably know, Wikipedia takes a rather quirky exception to using short-form names to refer former states/gov'ts. For example, you can never refer to the Russian Empire as "Russia" or to the Italian Social Republic as "Italy". So the title (making proper use our pedantic retronyms for this era) would be something like "British Mandate of Palestine – Kingdom of Egypt [and the Sudan?] border" (note the alphabetic reversal). However being conterminous* with the current Egypt–Israel border it might not be terribly useful as a separate category. — CharlotteWebb 05:13, 17 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Croatian clerics

Suggest merging Category:Croatian clerics to Category:Croatian clergy
Nominator's rationale: Merge. In accordance with naming conventions set in Category:Clergy by nationality. GregorB (talk) 20:02, 11 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

European Americans

Propose renaming:
Nominated categories
Nominator's rationale: Rename. 1st test case for consensus at Category talk:American people by ethnic or national origin#Naming conventions. This is a subset of the most common populated regional categories at Category:European Americans.
William Allen Simpson (talk) 17:46, 11 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Political prisoner

Category:Political prisoner - Template:Lc1
Nominator's rationale: Category:Political prisoners has already been deleted per POV and OR concerns: 2006 NOV 22 CfD, 2008 SEP 17 CfD. Offenbach (talk) 17:04, 11 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Tagged for speedy deletion - as recreated category. If not speediable then delete for the reasons that the political prisoners categories were previously deleted, POV, OR, subjective inclusion criteria. Otto4711 (talk) 17:47, 11 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
KEEP or suggest a category name which includes Laura Ling and Roxana Saberi. Please don't tell me there is no category in which they belong together: That is pushing WP:NPOV to an extreme which is actually rather POV. Erxnmedia (talk) 17:48, 11 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Laura Ling is a redirect to Current TV, which is rather ridiculously included in this category as if an entire network could be a political prisoner under any sane definition of the word. The article Roxana Saberi does not support the notion that she is a political prisoner so even if this category were to survive placing her in it would require original research. They both belong in various journalist categories and may be placed in another prisoners or detainees category. Otto4711 (talk) 19:08, 11 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Youth broadcasters

Propose renaming Category:Youth broadcasters to Category:Youth television networks
Nominator's rationale: Rename - the majority of categories including the word "broadcasters" are for people, not corporate entities or networks. That usage is I believe correct and so this category should be renamed to reflect that it's for networks. There is a subcat for Canadian networks that uses the word "children's" so Category:Children's television networks is another possible rename, although I think I prefer "youth" as being somewhat more encompassing (The N hardly seems like "children's television" but it is definitely youth-oriented, for example). Otto4711 (talk) 15:28, 11 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete or rename to make the focus very clear. I looked at XHGC-TV and they carry the CSI shows among others. Is that youth programming? This gets into what percentage of programming qualifies. That makes inclusive POV and subjective. Vegaswikian1 (talk) 00:57, 18 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Olympic broadcasters

Category:Olympic broadcasters - Template:Lc1
Nominator's rationale: Delete - performer by performance overcategorization, similar to recently deleted categories here and here. Olympic broadcasters can and do cover any number of other sporting events and categorizing on this basis would lead to category clutter. Otto4711 (talk) 15:24, 11 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Intersex activists

Category:Intersex activists (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so consensus may be reached.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Kbdank71 13:26, 11 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - there appear to be several 'intersex people' as Bearcat points out; 1 is also an 'Intersexuality activist' and 1 is an activist in something else. Perhaps there are 'Intersexuality activists' as yet uncategorised who are not themselves intersex. It would seem a distinctly defining characteristic. I support Bearcat's suggestion - rename to Category:Intersex people, add any others and perhaps create a new Category:Intersexuality activists. Occuli (talk) 14:02, 11 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Squeezeboxes

Category:Squeezeboxes - Template:Lc1
Nominator's rationale: Delete. Non-technical, colloquial term, and only has one article and one template. MatthewVanitas (talk) 04:34, 11 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Existentialists by ethnicity

Suggest merging Category:Italian existentialists, Category:French existentialists, Category:American existentialists, and Category:Lithuanian existentialists to Category:Existentialists
Nominator's rationale: Merge. Overcategorization - six Frenchmen, four Americans, three Italians, and two Lithuanians. —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 03:42, 11 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Americans of Jewish descent

Category:Americans of Jewish descent - Template:Lc1
This page lists Americans of partial ethnic Jewish ancestry. For those of full ancestry or who self-identify themselves as "American Jews" see Category:American Jews.
Nominator's rationale: Delete. Violates Wikipedia categorization policy and guidelines.
  • Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons#Categories requires:
    • Category tags regarding religious beliefs and sexual orientation should not be used unless two criteria are met:
      • The subject publicly self-identifies with the belief or orientation in question;
      • The subject's beliefs or sexual orientation are relevant to the subject's notable activities or public life, according to reliable published sources.
  • Wikipedia:Naming conventions (categories)#Heritage requires:
    • In addition to the requirement of verifiability, living people must have self-identified as a particular heritage, while historical persons may be identified by notable association with a single heritage.
      • Heritage categories should not be used to record people based on deduction, inference, residence, surname, nor any partial derivation from one or more ancestors.
      • The place of birth is rarely notable.
  • Wikipedia:Categorization/Gender, race and sexuality#Special subcategories requires:
The basis for creating such a category is not the number of individuals who could potentially be filed in the group, but whether there's a specific cultural context for the grouping beyond the mere fact that [persons] of that ethnic background happen to exist.
As a currently included example, George Allen: he was not raised Jewish, and is currently a Presbyterian; he does not self-identify as Jewish; it has been speculated (not verified) that his mother was of Jewish extraction; his mother's possible Jewishness is not relevant to his public life, other than in a derogatory manner.
--William Allen Simpson (talk) 00:36, 11 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete unnecessary race/ethnicity/religion category. Can't we get it through our heads that having Fooian blood (descent) in you is neither meaningful nor defining, especially if we are content with differing self-designations and purely subjective standards. The racialists here are stretching on this one in particular - take an example: since Marilyn Monroe converted to Judaism, would any children that she had (pre-conversion, post-) be in this category? And how meaningful would it have been to any of them? Carlossuarez46 (talk) 20:39, 11 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep Can't we get it through our heads that we base this and other similarly defining categories based on descriptions in reliable and verifiable sources and not based on some Nuremberg Laws blood percentage? If there are particular entries that are questionable, they can be dealt with separately with no relevance to the remainder of the category. Alansohn (talk) 02:20, 12 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • There are no entries in a category that cannot exist.
      1. The example was given merely to demonstrate actual abuse of this category.
      2. Self-identification is required. This category is never for self-identification.
      3. Partial ancestry is not allowed. This category is only for partial ancestry.
      4. It is the established policy of Wikipedia that such categories shall not exist.
      --William Allen Simpson (talk) 03:51, 12 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • merge to Category:American Jews. This separation of these two categories was mostly the work of a single editor who tried to do this to many ethnic American categories. Nearly all these have already been folded back into their 'fooian American' categories; that editor has also agreed that what he had been doing was an unworkable bad idea. Hmains (talk) 03:41, 12 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Note: This debate has been included in the list of Judaism-related deletion discussions. IZAK (talk) 09:06, 12 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete because: (a) the individuals in these types of categories have no real formal and relevant connection with Judaism as such or with Jews and the Jewish people in any meaningful way as it relates to their notability in their given professions and subsequent articles or categories. (b) This is a violation of Overcategorization: Non-notable intersections by ethnicity, religion, or sexual preference and of (c) Overcategorization: Opinion about a question or issue. (d) Quite a few of these categories have already been deleted over the years. IZAK (talk) 09:06, 12 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete If somebody doesn't self-identify as a Jew, Wikipedia shouldn't categorize them as such. — [[::User:Malik Shabazz|Malik Shabazz]] (talk · contribs) 21:22, 12 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • KeepBecause it is not the only category of this kind, as i saw that there are categories such as "British people of Irish descent","English people of Scottish descent", and so on. What many people are not aware of is that Jewish is an ethnicity and that Judaism is a religion, so that even if a person doesn't really identify as a Jew, then it's still part of his backround. I think that if the category will be deleted eventully, than at least those people should be added to the category of "American Jews". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.173.210.223 (talk) 14:06, 13 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • Hi 93.173.210.223: Please get a normal user's ID or use the one you may alreday have in order to have any credibility in these kind of serious discussions. Your statement that "What many people are not aware of is that Jewish is an ethnicity and that Judaism is a religion, so that even if a person doesn't really identify as a Jew, then it's still part of his backround" is known and it's the root of a huge problem because for far too long there has been ongoing abuse on Wikipedia (mainly through crass ignorance) of the notion that Jews are an ethnicity (which is true in an abstract manner relating mainly to strict Jewish law) but it has been flogged to death in the wrong way and stretched far beyond any reasonable and logical standards so that if someone allegedly had a Jewish ancestor a hundred years ago or was called "Jewish" by a celebrity magazine or in some journal or book in one line (that totally disregards Judaism and what being Jewish really means in an active meaningful way) they become "notable" Jews no less than the chief rabbis of Israel or the rabbis of the Talmud. Jews and Judaism are connected so that to place anyone in these categories implies that they were fully aware of this connection, subscribed to it and presumably fully (self) identified as such, which they did not. It would be safe to say that 99.99% of the "Jews" in these categories did not have much to do with Jews or with Judaism during their lifetimes. Many of them are in fact not considered Jewish by classical Jewish law and they had little or no formal or even informal contact with the Jewish people or with Judaism, yet now they become enthroned as examples of full-fledged "Jews" on Wikipedia no less than the most fervent of Hasidim, which they are not. IZAK (talk) 12:04, 17 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment -- This has two possible meanings - people of Jewish descent and people of Jewish religion. I would suggest that "American Jews" should be retained for those of Jewish religion (or self-identifying as Jews). The Jewish descent might be used for those not of Jewish religion. As a British person, I am not voting. Peterkingiron (talk) 23:54, 17 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
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