Talk:Southern Poverty Law Center

Bias tag

I will add the BIAS template, for the reasons stated above in several sections on a lack of criticism. Without criticism, the article is simply biased. Other than a lack of criticism, I have no complaints about the existing text at this time. The lack of criticism has been discussed here for a while, but the discussions go nowhere while the bias remains, so it is only fair to advise WP readers that bias exists in this article until such time as the bias is remedied. --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling (talk) 05:52, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

• The article does refer to criticisms leveled against the SPLC's fund-raising tactics and executive compensation, and quotes critic Alexander Cockburn at length. What other sources of criticism do you propose should be included? --Dystopos (talk) 07:27, 20 November 2010 (UTC)
• Seems balanced to me. TFD (talk) 07:32, 20 November 2010 (UTC)
• There is some criticism in the article, as mentioned by Dystopos, but to me it is insufficient for such a controversial organization that almost exclusively targets the Right, including mainstream conservatives (especially conservative media). The SPLC does not have the credibility of an organization like the ADL, which targets both the Right and the Left. I support the BIAS template. If someone has access to the Montgomery Advertiser articles on the SPLC, that would be a good start for balancing out this article. Drrll (talk) 15:12, 20 November 2010 (UTC)
• The SPLC is a well respected organization that is sourced throughout mainstream media. There is a small number of critisms from a few outlets, which is already represented enough in this article, because the vast majority of sourcing is positive. Dave Dial (talk) 15:21, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

No wonder I missed reading Cockburn. It is literally buried in the 4th to the last sentence in this huge article. If that is the only criticism, then I have proven my point about the article being biased. As a result, comments that say the article is balanced evidence those commenters feel a near total absence of criticism is "balanced."

And we all know and admit that the "SPLC is a well respected organization that is sourced throughout mainstream media." But that does not dismiss our duty to write encyclopedic articles, not corporate pamphlets.

Dydstopos asked a reasonable question: "What other sources of criticism do you propose should be included?" Let me say that I am not an expert in this area so I really do not know what's out there. But my own inability to produce a meaty response to Dystopos's question should not be considered evidence that no such criticism exists. I have a concern for the number of SPLC supporters writing here over a long period of time that if I do not personally find Wiki-worthy criticism, then the community consensus will be that such criticism does not exist. Indeed, that's a foregone conclusion to DD2K who said, "There is a small number of critisms from a few outlets, which is already represented enough in this article, because the vast majority of sourcing is positive."

That said, let me provide one source that is clearly Wiki-worthy, namely Tom Tancredo. See The Hidden Agenda of the SPLC, by Tom Tancredo, Spring 2010, where Tom Tancredo talks about, among other things, how the SPLC smeared him personally, so he should know.

See also "Immigration and the SPLC: How the Southern Poverty Law Center Invented a Smear, Served La Raza, Manipulated the Press, and Duped its Donors", by Jerry Kammer, March 2010.

Let me be clear I am NOT promoting any anti SPLC agenda. I am merely following Wiki rules about the presence of criticism in Wiki articles so they do not look like puff pieces, which is what the SPLC article looks like right now, and a single criticism buried in the fourth to the last sentence of this huge puff piece is evidence of a lack of appropriate criticism. Further, my linking those articles is a result of responding to a question from the community. I have to say this because I want to head off at the pass the claim that I am promoting certain views of certain people or groups because I linked to them or for any other reasons. No, I am merely working with the community on the Talk page as I should be doing. Let's all try our best to avoid ad hominem argument. --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling (talk) 16:52, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

Please see WP:NPOV which is our guide. We do not but in criticism for its own sake. The article on Shoes for example does not have criticism. TFD (talk) 17:07, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

NPOV reads, "All Wikipedia articles and other encyclopedic content must be written from a neutral point of view. This means representing fairly, proportionately, and as far as possible without bias, all significant views that have been published by reliable sources. This is non-negotiable and expected of all articles and all editors." That is lacking in this article. Hence the BIAS tag. --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling (talk) 17:29, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

Notice it says "significant views". The view you are presenting are fringe. TFD (talk) 18:08, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

Tom Tancredo is not "fringe". I'll bet there are numerous other sources that are not fringe.

TFD is doing exactly what I predicted, namely, implying that if I can't find appropriate criticism, it doesn't exist. I'll hazard a guess that there is plenty of non-fringe criticism out there if people would just look for it. I am asking for people to look for it. This article looks like an SPLC pamphlet. --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling (talk) 18:20, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

Some reference here may be useful: http://www.centerforimmigrationtruth.org/splc-references --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling (talk) 18:28, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

No, you are doing just as the anti-SPLC editors do all the time. Citing fringe outlets to try and include more criticism. Every single "source" you are quoting has been described by the SPLC(among others) as either promoting, being one or being supported hate groups. Find a mainstream source that has not already been discussed, and then suggest an edit. Otherwise I think we are done here. Dave Dial (talk) 19:05, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

Perhaps it's best not to cite Tancredo's first person complaint (in which he acknowledges that the press and the White House consider the SPLC's views to align with the mainstream). However, in it he does make reference to a broader critical article written by Jerry Kammer, which appears to be a better source for footnoted criticism of the SPLCs work. --Dystopos (talk) 23:03, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

Dystopos, thanks. DD2K, please stop the rush to judgment that no criticism exists. And do not align me with "anti-SPLC" editors. That people/groups oppose the SPLC is not a fringe opinion. This page needs compliance with NPOV. Your rush to say any criticism is fringe is becoming more and more apparent with each of your edits. We are not done here. Everyone would prefer that you contribute instead of discourage. --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling (talk) 03:22, 21 November 2010 (UTC)

Jerry Kammer works for the Center for Immigration Studies which provides information about immigration. TFD (talk) 03:45, 21 November 2010 (UTC)

Dystopos, Jerry Kammer works for the same organization that the SPLC states has ties to "white nationalists and Holocaust deniers". I don't believe that would qualify as a non-POV source at all. LegitimateAndEvenCompelling, you have yet to produce anything but innuendos, while claiming the article doesn't conform to NPOV standards because there isn't enough criticism in the article, while producing zero mainstream sourcing for anything. If you can't see what's wrong with that, I don't know what to tell you. There is nothing to really discuss here right now, perhaps I'll chime back in if anything turns up, but if not, the tag will have to go. Dave Dial (talk) 04:53, 21 November 2010 (UTC)

DD2K, the tag stays until the issue is resolved. You consistently seek to rush to judgment. You consistently seek to imply that if I personally do not produce results, the case should be closed forthwith. Now, as I predicted, you seek to make me personally the issue, instead of the appearance of this page looking like an SPLC pamphlet. The page looks like an SPLC pamphlet. That is soon going to change. But it will be up to the community to change it, not me personally. --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling (talk) 05:50, 21 November 2010 (UTC)

Tags should not be placed unless an editor can explain how the article may be improved. Saying there should be criticism, yet not providing any reasonable suggestions is an abuse. I will remove the tags. Before replacing them could you please explain what specific criticism should be included and provide a reliable source. TFD (talk) 06:15, 21 November 2010 (UTC)

I have restored TFD's removal of the BIAS tag. Such tag may not be removed until consensus is achieved. The page looks like an SPLC pamphlet. I have provided a number of links that may contain clues as to reliable sources that may be used to resolve the issue. I do not need to resolve the issue after placing the tag, else why would there be a need for a tag in the first place. The community needs to discuss this. So far 2 people have seen the bias and two others claim no such criticism exists, one even going so far as to remove the BIAS tag despite the rule that the tag stays until consensus is reached. --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling (talk) 06:28, 21 November 2010 (UTC)

You must be more specific. You have not explained what criticism is missing nor provided any reliable sources. Could you please do that before restoring the tags again. I can see only two editors who have complained about lack of criticism and you are the only one who sees that as requiring tags. TFD (talk) 06:34, 21 November 2010 (UTC)

I have been specific. Now I will restore the tag. Your third removal will be seen by me as bad faith. Just allow time for people to work together to resolve this issue. --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling (talk) 06:50, 21 November 2010 (UTC)

The Kammer article may not be an NPOV source, but it seems to be a verifiable source, useful at least for a cogent critical point of view. If a more neutral source has been able to digest some of these criticisms, that's great, but I see no harm in letting Wikipedia's editors take a stab at summarizing Kammer's claims within the context of a neutral article. As for the tag. I personally detest that kind of clutter in the article space, but there's no call for an edit war. Can we agree that some additional coverage of criticism against the SPLC is warranted even if we haven't identified the best sources yet? --Dystopos (talk) 06:53, 21 November 2010 (UTC)

One problem with Kammer's criticism is notability. Since SPLC has dozens of organizations it criticizes, it is not surprising that they complain about this. It's a bit like movie directors' criticism of film critics. The criticism in the article is from Laird Wilcox, who is an expert on the same groups that SPLC investigates and has written about them in an academic book. He may not be neutral either, but he puts his reputation on the line when he writes about the SPLC. TFD (talk) 07:21, 21 November 2010 (UTC)

Well, even if the criticisms can be classified as "fringe" or "reactionary", there is undeniably a long-running editorial push to acknowledge the existence of critical opinions, if not their content. Let's look for a way to do that; either by locating a reputable NPOV survey of critical reception, or making some attempt to hash one out from less authoritative sources available to us. --Dystopos (talk) 16:28, 21 November 2010 (UTC)

NPOV - I think that the above-discussed "bias" tag should be restored, until more balance is achieved, in this article. As I've said before, in prior "Discussion" posts, for this article: The issue of domestic surveillance and domestic spying, done by, or in collaboration with, federal and state governmental agencies, has become very-relevant in recent years, and continues to be. There was the recent MIAC "fusion center" scandal, and the Guenter Lewy lawsuit, as well as the charges from civil rights supporters such as Laird Wilcox and Professor Carol Swain, and from a Khaleej Times journalist - This is included in the SourceWatch entry, on the SPLC: Illegal government surveillance.

There are a number of other issues with this article. We have been going over this, for at least a couple of years now. People keep removing the criticism from here. Until this matter is fully resolved, I think that the "bias" or NPOV-dispute tags should remain. Pacificus (talk) 11:16, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

Nothing substantive or credible has been put forward as further criticism. This tag strikes me as unnecessary and only seems to be put forward by those who disagree with the organization's actions, atleast judging by the absurd sources for said criticism. Should not remain. All that has been asserted are criticisms from fringe political advocacy groups and fringe 'news' organizations with very obvious and open political biases themselves. Seriously, just look above - someone advocated a website that says the National Council of La Raza has opened our borders for unlimited and free immigration, which would be akin to ref'ing Americans For Truth About Homosexuality. The very obvious failure to provide any criticism is very telling, with sources like this. There has been absolutely no credible criticism asserted. I'm astonished that the bias tag remains. "Without criticism, the article is simply biased". Where there doesn't appear to be legitimate, notable criticism, the article is not, in fact, biased. 68.227.163.169 (talk) 12:14, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

User 68.227.163.169 makes a compelling case. I've removed the bias tag, which was inappropriately placed. --Accretionist (talk) 15:14, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

As far as I know, "bias" tags cannot be removed, until a certain procedure has been undertaken. None of those issues I raised above was ever addressed. A number of major media sources reported on the MIAC "fusion center" scandal, and Missouri government officials have formally recognized this problem. Furthermore, it is inappropriate that the Guenter Lewy lawsuit is not even mentioned, especially since the SPLC very-recently admitted they were wrong, in this case. And, FYI: The Khaleej Times is a very-major, and nationally-followed newspaper service (Henry Kissinger is among their foreign affairs columnists). And journalist Jerry Kammer was a recent recipient of the Pulitzer Prize. And professor Carol Swain of Vanderbilt University is nationally-recognized for her eminence in the field of African-American studies; the same is true for Laird Wilcox, in the area of anti-racism activism and civil rights. Furthermore, the issue of domestic surveillance and collaboration is a serious one, with privacy and civil liberties implications.

A section should probably be added to this article about the SPLC's involvement in foreign affairs, particularly insofar as the Republic of Turkey, and also with respect to the Kosovo war (and criticism they have received, from antiwar advocates.

And also: I know that civil rights leader Stephen Bright was quoted, in a previous version of this article; Has that material been removed?

Also: In looking at the Wikipedia articles for other organizations, I've noticed that the SPLC's perspective has been quoted/cited disproportionately (and at times, almost exclusively), even if those were from older years. On the other hand, the reference to the SPLC from the Washington Post (definitely a "reliable source") which has been cited in this article before (labeling the SPLC as a "controversial, liberal organization"), keeps getting deleted (while the SPLC's labeling/sourcing of other organizations remains featured, in those org's articles).

Aside from the third-party sources I have alluded to... It is also unfair to say (as per the dialogue, above on this Talk page) that a source's affiliation with an organization criticized by the SPLC means that said source is unusable - while at the same time, the SPLC is frequently-cited, in the Wikipedia articles for many of the organizations that it criticizes (such as FAIR, CIS, NumbersUSA), and the recent social conservative organizations that have been added to its list (some of which, like the American Family Association, the Family Research Council, and American Vision, it has labeled as hate groups).

This type of citation policy/practice is a double standard.

There are a number of other issues with this article - Many of which have been raised in prior years, and then, action has been taken to rectify this imbalance... But then, those changes keep getting reverted back. But aside from this, until further study is given, to these topics, and that material is added, it isn't appropriate to removed an NPOV bias dispute-tag.

The tag should therefore be restored, until all of the issues raised, by posters on this Talk page (and on the other Talk pages, for this article) are addressed, and resolved. Thank you, Pacificus (talk) 06:24, 4 December 2010 (UTC)

Okay, could you please take one item at the time and provide reliable sources to show this page is biased? Please? -- Kim van der Linde ^{at venus} 06:36, 4 December 2010 (UTC)

SPLC hopes to marginalize FAIR

The SPLC admits politically motivated attacks made for the political reasons of marginalizing organizations it opposes, if I understand what Potok said, and if what he said was reported accurately. Will someone please look into this for possible inclusion in the article? It will help it look less like an advertisement for the SPLC, although there have been improvements since I first added the BIAS tag for that reason. Here's the quote that brought me to raise this issue: "SPLC hate group monitor Mark Potok reportedly acknowledged, 'what we are hoping very much to accomplish is to marginalize FAIR.'"

You know what? I am 100% certain Wikipedia is not to be used to further SPLC's stated goal to marginalize groups the SPLC opposes, assuming what Potok said was accurately reported. --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling (talk) 17:05, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

Another ref, this from Scripps News: "What we are hoping very much to accomplish is to marginalize FAIR," said Mark Potok, director of the center's intelligence project. "We don't think they should be a part of the mainstream media." --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling (talk) 17:07, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

This seems to be from FAIR: "Southern Poverty Law Center Adds FAIR to ‘Hate Group’ List". --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling (talk) 17:10, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

Now you are providing an article from World Net Daily, a conspiracy theorist website. Could you please stop providing these unreliable sources. Also, I find it disturbing to have to look at all these fringe sources you keep presenting. If you continue to post them I will complain at ANI. TFD (talk) 17:41, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

That was an ad hominem comment designed to distract from the issues, including a bonus threat to go to ANI. Everyone else, let's stick to the issues. --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling (talk) 17:47, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

You must stop providing fringe sources. They cannot be used for sources for articles and it is just soapboxing. TFD (talk) 17:53, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

I don't think that was any sort of "ad hominem", it's an attempt to get you to stop using fringe sources. And yes, you need to stop. It's one of the reasons your attempted edits have run into so much resistance. Then again, if you believe these "sources" are reliable, there is no hope for any of your attempts to make it into this article. Dave Dial (talk) 17:55, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

Mark Potok is not a fringe source. He, as an SPLC leader, said, "What we are hoping very much to accomplish is to marginalize FAIR. We don't think they should be a part of the mainstream media." I provided the WND ref as the means to begin conversation in Talk on that very issue, and I never said the WND ref is appropriate for the article. Besides, per WP:RS, such a decision cannot be made until the ref is viewed in context, and no such context yet exists. Claims that WND is never a reliable source are wholly untrue precisely because WP:RS compliance requires viewing refs in context.

Along comes TFD and DD2K. They are hoping to marginalize me with ANI threats and claims my edits "run into so much resistance". From them. They don't think I should be a part of Wikipedia Talk, according to what they said. What they do is repeatedly argue things are fringe and people have no right to discuss them, else an ANI will result, then a huge conversation goes back and forth that serves the purpose of obscuring the substantive issues, even if attempts to marginalize people fail.

Therefore, I ask everyone reading here in the spirit of being follow Wikipedians wishing to improve WP per its rules to set aside the ad hominem distractions raised by TFD, DD2K, and more to come, and stick to the issues.

The issues are these: The SPLC admits politically motivated attacks made for the political reasons of marginalizing organizations it opposes, if I understand what Potok said, and if what he said was reported accurately. Will someone please look into this for possible inclusion in the article? It will help it look less like an advertisement for the SPLC, although there have been improvements since I first added the BIAS tag for that reason. Thanks. --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling (talk) 18:21, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

The quote comes from Flores' editorial on the scrippsnews website - editorials are not reliable sources for facts - and has only been picked up by fringe websites. The meaning in the original editorial is however clear. Potok does not think FAIR should be a part of the mainstream media. TFD (talk) 19:00, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

That was substantive. I am not suggesting using the editorial as a RS. I am suggesting using it as a starting point for finding a RS that we can use. It is relevant if the RS we may eventually find indicates that SPLC chooses what to label as a hate group so as to get people to ignore them. They not really be hate groups then. Advising readers of that circumstance is what we on Wikipedia do, so long as we do it in a compliant fashion. --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling (talk) 19:11, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

Whoww, so what you want to say is that if an civil rights organization tries to minimize the KKK it is a politically motivated action? -- Kim van der Linde ^{at venus} 19:14, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

Stop it. I did not say that. Stick to the issues, please. --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling (talk) 19:18, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

I am sticking to the issue. You are making bold claims. You called 'what we are hoping very much to accomplish is to marginalize FAIR a political attack. What I try to get to is what is exactly political in marginalizing hate groups? -- Kim van der Linde ^{at venus} 19:24, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

I've made no claims. I just asked questions, on the Talk page, which is here for asking questions and improving articles, with people working together on substantive issues. Drop the ad hominem stuff like TFD did above, drop the changing of my words to say what I didn't, and move on to the substantive issues, please. --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling (talk) 19:28, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

LAEC, the SPLC website says, "The Southern Poverty Law Center is a nonprofit civil rights organization dedicated to fighting hate and bigotry, and to seeking justice for the most vulnerable members of society." You may not agree with their objectives, but most people would not see it as criticism. TFD (talk) 19:44, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

While this is irrelevant, I agree with their goals. I myself have the same goals when I oppose, for example, the American Library Association on the rare times that it acts with hatred or bigotry, or when it does not seek justice for vulnerable librarians. Don't ask. So I don't see it as criticism. Actually, it's the right thing to do. Of course, I'm a little confused by your comment, so I may not have answered what you really asked. --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling (talk) 19:52, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

Since the SPLC's self-description is in the first sentence of the lead, there is no reason to add it as "criticism". TFD (talk) 20:17, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

I'm not happy with a section heading making a claim that is sourced to a fringe source - and by that LAEC knows very well the original commentator who called it a fringe source meant WND, not Potok. I'm changing the section heading to reflect the situation - it's a claim, not a 'fact'. Dougweller (talk) 21:35, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

TFD, I'm not suggesting that, am I?

Dougweller, section headings are for us to discuss things. They need not be "facts". Perhaps we should add RSs to section headings? This is a Talk page. I've had people claiming I was saying things I wasn't, now I got some guy actually changing the literal text of what I had written. Remarkable what people will do. I'll respectfully ask you to restore the heading as it was. Thanks. --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling (talk) 21:43, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

LAEC; Dougweller's edit is consistent with "Keep headings neutral: A heading should indicate what the topic is, but not communicate a specific view about it."[1] Please see Wikipedia:TALK#New_topics_and_headings_on_talk_pages. Your heading was not consistent with this guidance. Walter Siegmund (talk) 06:49, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

It's a close call. I said, "SPLC admits politically motivated attacks". Compare that to "SPLC hate group monitor Mark Potok reportedly acknowledged, 'what we are hoping very much to accomplish is to marginalize FAIR'". Sounds like a politically motivated attack to me. But, to be sure, here's what I'll do. I'll change the heading to "SPLC hopes to marginalize FAIR" since the SPLC guy said "we are hoping very much to accomplish is to marginalize FAIR". Fair? --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling (talk) 07:10, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

It isn't a close call. When you wrote the heading, "SPLC admits politically motivated attacks", you had one source that did not satisfy WP:RS and did not support the wording of the heading. You said, "if I understand what Potok said, and if what he said was reported accurately", which indicates that you were aware of both problems. Now your heading contains an unnecessary, albeit short, direct quotation without quotation marks or attribution. This violates our policy on copyrights. What I observe are indications of problem editing. Insistence on your version of a talk page section heading is one manifestation of this behavior. You have used the phrase "advertisement for the SPLC" or variants thereof several times on this talk page to describe the work of your fellow editors. That discounts their effort and your words, "I know the tight grip the advertisers hold on to to keep the advertisement in place", imply bad faith to describe "that which may be adequately explained by a simple difference of opinion." Please desist. Walter Siegmund (talk) 17:45, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

Hi LegitimateAndEvenCompelling,

You had written, "The SPLC admits politically motivated attacks made for the political reasons of marginalizing organizations it opposes[.]... Here's the quote that brought me to raise this issue: "SPLC hate group monitor Mark Potok reportedly acknowledged, 'what we are hoping very much to accomplish is to marginalize FAIR.'" "

When reading the sources you provided, "political motivation" is not acknowledged by Mark Potok's quote.

I believe it is possible for an organization to marginalize its opponents without having political motivation or political reasons, according to my personal definition of what is "politics".

Because of this, I believe is it synthesis/original research to state that Mark Potok acknowledged political motivation, and that we would need to wait until a reliable source to state it before we include it in the article.

We could include a reified statement instead. "[person_x] says that Mark Potok acknowledged political motivations with this statement" if we had a reliable source on person_x's position. However, statements such as these are often too tenuous to survive editing in Wikipedia articles.

--Kevinkor2 (talk) 23:27, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

Absolutely correct. Nothing I say here, or anyone says here, or anywhere in any Talk, is ready for prime time. So you are absolutely correct, and I never intended anything otherwise. We are just talking in Talk. --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling (talk) 23:41, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

The expression "politically motivated" should be avoided. because it is ambiguous and does not appear in sources. TFD (talk) 14:06, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

Absolutely. It was also very easy, a matter of seconds, to discover two 2007 sources for this Potok quote: [2] from the Times-Union of Warsaw, Indiana (nice town by the way), and [3] from Scripps. The first newspaper actually has more context about where this was said. He followed that sentence with ". "We don't think they should be a part of the mainstream media." And of course this was all to do with the SPLC calling FAIR a hate group, and if we are going to discuss that, then we need to add something about "d.Promptly endorsing SPLC's action was the Coalition for Comprehensive Immigration Reform. Its campaign manager, Clarissa Martinez, followed up: "It is unacceptable for members of Congress and the media to legitimize a hate group bent on manipulating Americans' concerns over our broken immigration system to advance its own goals and derail real solutions to this issue."..."Cristina Lopez, deputy executive director of the Center for Community Change. "There's no difference between putting a member of FAIR on TV to talk about immigration and putting a member of the Ku Klux Klan to talk about race relations." Dougweller (talk) 15:23, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

Agree. --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling (talk) 15:50, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

The Times-Union link is to a copy of the Scripps editorial. TFD (talk) 16:58, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

hmmm... How do we know that the piece by Flores is an editorial? If I am reading the byline correctly, it was originally published by Hispanic Link News Service. It does not have the classic earmarks of an editorial (like the author talking in first person). Does Scripps Howard News Service only publish editorials? It cannot be a direct copy from the Scripps Howard webpage if it has more information.

nevermind... I see it was part of the Times-Union "Opinion" page. That is enough to classify it as an editorial.

--Kevinkor2 (talk) 22:30, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

BIAS tag misuse

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

The bias tag is currently misused on this article for POV pushing reasons. For the tag to remain, credible main stream sources need to be provided showing where this article is biased. If only fringe resources can be provided, the bias tag needs to go as soon as possible. -- Kim van der Linde ^{at venus} 13:26, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

It's definitely being misused, again. The editor is ignoring the talk page and the many editors that have opposed it. Dave Dial (talk) 14:34, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

"Editors must write articles from a neutral point of view, representing all significant views fairly, proportionately, and without bias". A page that looks like an advertisement cannot possibly be "representing all significant views fairly, proportionately, and without bias". That is precisely why Wikipedia has policies opposing advertisements.

Clearly, I support the BIAS tag, someone else has just added it back, and others are working to remove the bias, with good progress being made. The speedy rush to remove the tag, even its repeated removal in the face of legitimate concern for Wiki compliance, is contradictory to Wikipedia rules. Let me see how someone else put it to one of the people decrying "fringe" sources and repeatedly removing the BIAS tag: "That (one editor who wants the BIAS tag to remain) is a red herring. There is no reason you should have been removing a tag placed on the article in good faith. Edit warring to do so is even worse. If you can't see the problem with that, then the problem is with you. There is plenty of agreement in the discussion over this that you were wrong to edit war over this."

I suggest we stop wasting time with repeated claims regarding "fringe" sources, "the bias tag needs to go as soon as possible", and "It's definitely being misused, again". Let's stick to the issues. Come on, folks, I know you can do this. The Talk page will be shorter if you do this. Just stick to the issues and stop rushing to remove the BIAS tag. I was right to add the tag in the first place. I thank the person who just readded it. I'll thank everyone to stick to the issues without ad hominem statements like, "The editor is ignoring the talk page", or section headings that may violate policy with messages like, "BIAS tag misuse".--LegitimateAndEvenCompelling (talk) 14:56, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

Well, it is simple. What are the reliable sources about aspects that are missing and make this page worthy of the BIAS tag? If you cannot give them,, the usage of the BIAS tag is misuse. -- Kim van der Linde ^{at venus} 15:33, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

Kim, it appears we are both editing in good faith here. I completely see your point. Mine, however, is slightly different, broader. You see, the issue is not as narrow as one that can be remedied with RSs, the inclusion of which are required to prove the BIAS tag is not being misused, according to you. You see, "Editors must write articles from a neutral point of view, representing all significant views fairly, proportionately, and without bias" -- that is broader than you are looking at it. You are just seeing the bias part. I'm seeing the fairness and proportionality part. That's exactly why the page looks like a brochure for the SPLC. I would not be surprised if the SPLC hands out copies of this Wikipedia page instead of spending the time and money writing its own brochures. And not providing RSs when adding the BIAS tag is not evidence of the tag's misuse that can only be remedied by removing the tag, which is apparently your view.

Why don't you show your good faith by readding the tag that was just edit warred off by the sock? --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling (talk) 15:47, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

I do not do edit warring, that is why I raise it here at the talk page. Edit warring does not work, reason does. Well, lets go with your wider point. Yes, the article needs to be NPOV, covering all significant views fairly, proportionately, and without bias. So, could you be specific about these issues. Basically, what is disproportional? What is biased? Generally, disproportional would mean that there is an imbalance in source use. This can be solved by getting more reliable sources for the underrepresented part of the article. Bias same story. To be clear, I am not here to discuss policies, generally, policy based discussions arise when people do not have valid arguments. Everybody can make claims, but after that, it is put up or shut up. -- Kim van der Linde ^{at venus} 17:23, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

Well, Kim, you got me. I admit my original complaint was and remains that the page looks like an advertisement. If I recall, I think I even said I see no specific bias, but bias, again, is only part of the concern with the BIAS tag. After that, it is up to the community to discuss. If we were to strip out the sock puppets and the meatpuppets and the comments that never addressed the issue and merely concluded the BIAS tag must be removed, what would be left is a few people actually improving the article as a result of my having added the BIAS tag. That is the whole purpose of the thing. It is not for me alone to provide the necessary roadmap. I am happy to be directly involved in the improvement of this page occasioned by my adding the BIAS tag. Everyone benefits if the page is improved. That is why I simply do not understand the vociferous effort to remove the tag, with now two editors being indef blocked, if I recall. All this silliness just to comply with Wiki policy and improve the article. I know you are helping. Thank you. --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling (talk) 17:45, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

Well, seeing a general lias is really insufficient to add a bias tag to an article. So, now that we have established that, and as lng as that there are no real issues to be discussed, I think we have to remove the BIAS tag and keep improving the article when we find good sources.

It doesn't appear you "completely see" Kim's point. It appears you are condescending to her in order to push an argument you've been making for a long time, without evidence or success. Kim has a long editing history here. No need to quote policy to her. It's insulting. --Accretionist (talk) 15:53, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

Kim, I promise I was being fully respectful, as you were. Accretionist, edit war all you want, but it will not be to your benefit in the long run. I politely advise you to restore the BIAS tag. --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling (talk) 16:05, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

Accretionist, I can handle this myself. We get to a clear end soon on this. :-) -- Kim van der Linde ^{at venus} 17:23, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

Accretionist has been blocked indef as a sock, FYI. --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling (talk) 17:45, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

I think DD2K and Kim make excellent arguments for why the "bias" tag is being misused. Looks like a few rogue editors are intent on ignoring the many, many editors who have made a clear case here that no reliable sources have shown that the Southern Poverty Law Center is a spurious organization. I've removed the tag. --Accretionist (talk) 15:22, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

And the new guy who removed the BIAS tag on his first edit ever is now edit warring on it and has removed it again. Quoting again, "There is no reason you should have been removing a tag placed on the article in good faith. Edit warring to do so is even worse. If you can't see the problem with that, then the problem is with you." And now, the problem is with Accretionist. Is there anyone here who does not think he is a sock? --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling (talk) 15:26, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

According to the overwhelming consensus on this page, the tag was never placed "in good faith," as you say. But to push an agenda. Also, whom are you quoting? You'd do well to take his or her advice, and also Matthew 7:5. I find your response quite rude. --Accretionist (talk) 15:31, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

To LAEC: You've raised three points: NPOV, WEIGHT and BIAS. You seem to have already conceded that there are no reliable sources claiming serious criticism of the SPLC. As far as WEIGHT is concerned (proportionality of opinion), your failure to come up with reliable sources of criticism does seem to indicate that the absence of serious criticism in the article is merely a just reflection of the absence of serious criticism from reliable sources in the real world. And finally, NPOV means that neutrality is achieved when all opinions are represented fairly, which also means in accordance to their real-world importance. It does not mean, as you seem to assume, that all opinions need to be represented equally; just proportionately to their importance. Bring a RS with a serious criticism of the SPLC and then we can revisit the possibility of a BIAS tag. However, so far, nothing in the article justifies it, whether it be by commission or omission.--Ramdrake (talk) 16:43, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

Recall I originally added the tag because the page looks like a brochure for the SPLC. It then becomes up to the community to see what's what. Separating me out as the one person who must both bring the BIAS tag action and resolve it at the same time is clever, but not how things work.

Let me turn the tables. Why are people edit warring to removed the BIAS tag? Why are people removing the BIAS tag? What's the rush? The dispute is still ongoing, and the tag text says the tag should stay while the dispute is ongoing, yet person after person keeps removing it. Why is that? Why don't you restore the tag right now to be in compliance with Wiki policy? You won't of course, but why not since Wiki policy says it stays up until the dispute is resolved? Why is my compliance with Wiki guidelines by properly placing the tag called into question when the noncompliance of others is not simple because they are all in agreement to prevent the BIAS tag from appearing on the page? --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling (talk) 17:08, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

Nobody should edit war. Keep in mind the following sequence, and you get somewhere without edit warring: Edit, revert, discuss. Someone makes an edit, if it gets reverted, discuss at the talk page. I think 1RR for each edit should be the norm, not 3RR per day, which is basically a compromise to allow some edit warring. -- Kim van der Linde ^{at venus} 17:23, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

"Accretionist", by the way, has been banned as a sock or meatpuppet. He also edit warred to remove the BIAS tag and attacked the guys who added it, there's two now. Three if you include the admit who revert Accretionist, maybe more. And that lasted for 3 minutes until TechBear reverted the admin. People say it is promoting something to add a BIAS tag. What? What is the bias to add a BIAS tag in compliance with policy? Why is everyone continually removing the tag in violation of policy and the tag's own text? --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling (talk) 17:13, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

I think the BIAS tag is being misused. Wikipedia policies and guidelines are intended to help editors work together, not as weapons. What I observe is problem editing by LAEC persisting after being reminded of this guidance, above.[4] Walter Siegmund (talk) 18:01, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

Please explain how adding a BIAS tag on the claim that the page looks like an advertisement can be considered a weapon? I support the tag being on the Family Research Council page and no one there is claiming that the person who added it is using it as a weapon. By the way, I support it on the FRC page for the following reason. Are you sitting down? For the same reason I added it here -- both the FRC and the SPLC pages look like advertisements. Oh, and the Mark Levin had a BIAS tag for 364 days straight. It was no problem there either. It's no problem here either, or at least it shouldn't be. --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling (talk) 18:15, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

We are talking about this article, not other articles where it maybe is misused. -- Kim van der Linde ^{at venus} 18:59, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

Okay. Then answer this. Assuming you see a page that looks like an advertisement. Is adding a BIAS tag and associated Talk comments considered misuse? If so, why? What exactly is being misused? Is there a better tag to add for advertisements/brochures? --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling (talk) 19:11, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

Yes, it is. The key is verifiability. We all can feel like a page looks like an advertisment, incorrect, biased, unbalanced, liberal, evangelical, etc. If I could add a few tags baed on my underbelly feeling only, we would have a mess from here till the end-times (2012?). So, that is and remains insufficient reason to tag a page. If you cannot substantiate your assertion with reliable sources etc, and you keep insisting on keeping the tag, that is misuse of the tag. -- Kim van der Linde ^{at venus} 19:21, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

Well, that's new to me, and to the users using it for the same purpose.

As to "keep on insisting", that tag was torn down by TFD in a day. He moved on to edit war over it, get me banned, and get himself warned. There's people who "keep on insisting" here alright.

What is the guidance page I can read that says use of the BIAS tag for advertisements is misuse? --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling (talk) 19:30, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

Glad that I could help you make things understand a bit better. I am not here to discuss who did what, because that is not related to content but related to editors, and I am not here to to discuss who did what when for what reason. But more troublesome is that you just do not seem to get what I was writing above in the other thread we had going on. Adding the tag for the first time is okay. You have done that. But after that, you have to be able to substantiate it. You cannot, and the tag should be removed becauise there is no concrete problem with the article other than your gut feeling. After that, adding a tag again just to satisfy your own gut feeling is misuse. As you indicated that you do not have reliable sources to substantiate your gut feeling, so I suggest that we end this discussion here until you come forward with some good and reliable sources for your claim. -- Kim van der Linde ^{at venus} 19:47, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

That's fine, but it doesn't explain the various people working to improve the page as a result of the tag. Let's say I was at the end of my rope but people were still reacting to the tag and improving the page. I am pretty sure I should not remove the tag simply because I personally have nothing else to add to the debate.

And I just found this: WP:NOTADVERTISING. So that is the policy I had in mind when I added the BIAS tag. It was not misuse after all. I properly raised the issue, I just failed to add the NOTADVERTISING link. Live and learn, huh? --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling (talk) 22:20, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

In no way does this article fit into any of the soapbox categories. That too, would be a misuse of tagging.Dave Dial (talk) 22:31, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

Well, just starting a discussion at the talk page will do that. As for the link, yes, it was you right to add the tag the first time, nobody is disputing that, but it is the re-adding it after things were discussed and you could not convince people that things were wrong, it became misuse. -- Kim van der Linde ^{at venus} 22:28, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

I don't see it that way. I see people repeatedly removing the link in a manner that violated the spirit of Wikipedia, including verbals attacks, outings, defamation, WP:LAME incidents, etc. I see some of those people never, not once, addressing issues. And some of them were the very same people who objected previously and in the same fashion when the BIAS tag was added a while back.

Had the people using ad hominem argument reacted instead like you are, this could have been resolved long ago. I'm not the misuser for standing in the face of the ad hominem wind.

Be that as it may, significant changes are being made to obviate the need for the advertising concern, so all's well that ends well. --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling (talk) 22:42, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

Bias Tag removal consensus

Since the addition/removal of {{npov}} has been a recurring problem the last few days, and it appears that the consensus is that it shouldn't be included for various reasons. Could those involved please post in this thread to confirm that is indeed the consensus so we can move on to other issues instead of discussing the bias tag ad nauseum? A perusal through the other threads seems to indicate that there is. Falcon8765 ^(TALK) 23:02, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

I think there is consensus, and I suggest if the main other party agrees with that, that we should achieve this page and start fresh. -- Kim van der Linde ^{at venus} 23:06, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

I'm happy, but there are others editing here as well. --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling (talk) 23:12, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

I do not agree to archiving the page so quickly. --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling (talk) 23:14, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

No need for the tag, per my comments several sections above. ... Kenosis (talk) 02:59, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

Frankly I'm surprised it's gone on for so long, the tag should never be used as a bartering chip. I suggest folding this section into the above as a subsection and/or renaming it "Removing the bias tag" or somesuch. (As you can see, the talkpage already has a section far above with the generic title "Bias tag"). -PrBeacon (talk) 05:36, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

There are at least 8 or 9 editors in the last 30 days who have opposed the bias tag, all of which have been supported by policy. The fact that LEAC refuses to hear consensus on the matter is clearly in evidence, and repeating "it reads like an advertisement" ad infinitum only shows that he's not here in good faith. As I said earlier, we should revert him if he places it again, ignore his goading on this page, and report him for disruption if he continues. He's already been blocked multiple times for edit warring, pushing an agenda, and generally being disruptive on other articles where he feels it is necessary to advocate an agenda, and I have a pretty good feeling he's working himself into a topic ban or indefinite block at this point. I'm traveling this week and don't have time to properly see this through to conclusion, but the fact that he's still pushing a point of view after weeks of discussion is shameful. //Blaxthos ( t / c ) 06:47, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

I agree with now removing the bias tag. I disagree with topic banning or blocking LEAC because of three reasons:

1. It was good that LegitimateAndEvenCompelling added the tag: In his stated opinion, the article sounded like advertising; he had policy on his side (WP:NOTADVERTISING); another editor, Drll, supported him.
2. It was bad that The Four Deuces removed the tag within 48 hours of the tag being placed. There was no consensus declared on the talk page at that time. As an essay (not a policy) says: (bold added by me)

   Wikipedia:NPOV dispute#What_is_an_NPOV_dispute.3F

   Sometimes people have edit wars over the NPOV dispute tag, or have an extended debate about whether there is a NPOV dispute or not. In general, if you find yourself having an ongoing dispute about whether a dispute exists, there's a good chance one does, and you should therefore leave the NPOV tag up until there is a consensus that it should be removed.

3. It was bad that sockpuppets removed the tag:
   • FairAndBalanced[5][6]: a sockpuppet of Abbruscato
   • Accretionist[7]: unidentified puppetmaster

--Kevinkor2 (talk) 09:19, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

Hi Kevinkor2. To a newcomer, your points might seem valid. However, I think if you dig a little deeper in the archives you will find that LAEC has been pushing this issue for quite a while (probably longer than a year), and consensus surrounding this issue has been reached multiple times... he just comes back every few months and tries the same thing again. There is no question in my mind that he's not here in good faith, which should be obvious from the exchanges still visible on this page -- digging in the archives should seal the deal, if you're still wondering. With regards to sockpuppetry and other tomfoolery, I can't speak to any of that, however it's not really germane to my point (namely that LAEC has moved into a clear pattern of disruption and tendentious editing long after consensus is clear. //Blaxthos ( t / c ) 14:49, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

Kevinkor2,that's a bit of re-writing history. LAEC reverted an editor who removed a link to a website that has white supremacist ties. After LAEC was reverted by another, established editor, he added the "BIAS" tag, claiming it was explained in talk. The explanations cited a criticism section and the removal of the racist link. It gave no specifics, and when asked for specifics, LAEC refused and claimed it wasn't up to him to give specific, reliably sourced criticism, and instead listed a hodgepodge of links to radical, fringe websites. There was NEVER any mention of soapboxing until late yesterday, and that guideline does not fit this article at all. Not in the least. Now, if I have to scroll through the archives of this talk page and bring in every tedious edit LAEV has made over the past year or so, I guess I will. But it will have to be when I get back from vacation(after the 14th of December). I was not going to respond to the effort, but I don't think I can sit here while the events of what has transpired gets glossed over and rewritten. Dave Dial (talk) 15:11, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

Do the personal attacks need to go on even after I have agreed with the BIAS tag removal? They only go to illustrate Kevinkor2's point. Dave Dial's entering into possible WP:DIGWUREN violations just now is just the latest evidence. Those supporting me or editing to improve the article as a result of my placing the tag contrast sharply from those using personal attack to prevent any changes. The thing speaks for itself. --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling (talk) 15:28, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

This is another example of your tedious editing and battleground behavior. Accusing other editors of "personal attacks", "ad hominems" and anything else you can think of in bad faith. There are no "personal attacks" when other editors are complaining about your behavior, it's part of the process. Just because I have not responded to your MANY accusations against me doesn't mean I have not noticed them. I chose not to respond in the hopes of not creating a more tense atmosphere and that you would stop. I can see now that is not going to happen. And once again, if I have to go through the list of your continued accusations against me, and other editors, when they point out your behavior, I will. This is just getting ridiculous. Dave Dial (talk) 15:37, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

You (and Kenosis who edit warred the BIAS tag) have essentially labeled me as a white supremacist. Others have been indef banned for saying even worse things. Who is tedious and battleground? Please, take your concerns to ANI. I asked above, "Do the personal attacks need to go on even after I have agreed with the BIAS tag removal?" Your answer is clearly, yes. To everyone else reading this, thank your lucky stars these guys aren't coming after you. --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling (talk) 15:50, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

I should also report the personal attacks on me are so vociferous that if anyone supports me, and they do, the attackers sometimes begin attacking those people as well. Like Kevinkor2 being told he's rewriting history. There are worse examples, like one of the banned editors battling with the admin who banned him. --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling (talk) 15:55, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

Responding to your attempt to use white supremacist websites/outlets as reliable sources is NOT a "personal attack". In fact, you are lucky at the tame responses you received to your mass inclusion of racist websites as "sources". If you do not like the responses you receive for trying to list fringe sources, then one would suggest you STOP trying to use them. Now, either list the "personal attacks", the WP:DIGWUREN violations, or retract and drop the accusations. Dave Dial (talk) 15:59, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

"If you do not like the responses you receive for trying to list fringe sources, then one would suggest you STOP trying to use them." That, ladies and gentlemen, is a microcosm of what is going on here. "One would suggest you STOP trying to use them." One editor telling another editor what not say.

Now we know why the BIAS tag kept being removed. People including material some might not like had to be, quoting now, shouting in original, "STOPPED". Listing fringe materials in Talk is part of the reason why there are Talk pages in the first place. They are called Talk pages, not Shout pages. I will not self-censor myself because of personal attack, no matter how loudly they shout "STOP". --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling (talk) 16:14, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

(edit conflict)LAEC, while Dave Dial's comments may have been hyperbolic or even just flatly wrong (or may not have... I don't know, I haven't reviewed the soruces), he didn't call you a racist. He called your sources racist, which was an attack on the sources, not you. If you believe the sources aren't "white supremicist", it's in your best interest to show why, rather than simply claim it was a personal attack not worthy of response. Otherwise we run the risk of never moving being point a to point b because any editor who disagrees with your inclusion can never state why without claims of personal attack, and thus a shutdown of the debate on that point.

Granted, some editors are not the politest in the world, but if you're going to cook a cake, you best be able to take the heat in the kitchen. I suggest a reasoned thought out response to each of Dave Dial's points, disproving where (if at all) he's wrong. You might start with "why do you think these sources are racist?" and move on from there. Magog the Ogre (talk) 16:18, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

Okay. Here's an example of where he is wrong. He said, "Responding to your attempt to use white supremacist websites/outlets as reliable sources...." Not once did I say that was a reliable source. Never. Actually, I said the opposite. Yet here he is saying I said it was a RS. When he files his ANI against me, he should please try to be truthful so as not to waste people's time.

As to the VDARE site's inclusion, I explained above in that subsection why I included it. And it has absolutely nothing to do with what Dave Dial has claimed about me. If the circumstances are right in the future, I will include the VDARE site again. Improving Wikipedia takes precedence over shouts that I should stop myself from adding them in the first place.

But there's a bigger point. I agreed to remove the BIAS tag after speaking above with Kim. Why is Dave Dial pursuing his personal attacks? --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling (talk) 16:32, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

And I see your point on the source being racist rather than the person. But I did include Kenosis in what I said above, and K said, "obvious advocate of the inclusion of white supremacist/white separatist material". That goes to the person, not to the source. --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling (talk) 16:47, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

Blaxthos, you regularly accuse your opponents of trolling. I imagine this is not the first time that you advocated blocking or even banning opponents. Drrll (talk) 17:51, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

Only when they're trolling, and deserving of a topic ban or blocks for disruption. I've made my case quite clear here, and rest assured that if editors continue to ignore a rather strong consensus (10 to 1 or 2) and insist on continuing tendentious bullshit I will make that case in a venue that has the ability to stop the disruption in whatever manner they deem appropriate. I have never been blocked or sanctioned, though those crying foul in this forum certainly have, so please stick to my points about this issue instead of trying to discredit them because I'm not afraid to call a spade a spade. There is exactly one (or two, if you're throwing your hat in the ring) who believes a bias tag is warranted, and nearly a dozen editors who say it is not (and have quoted policy extensively). Pushing this any further doesn't validate the point, and only shows that you/he care(s) more about pushing your viewpoint than honoring consensus. //Blaxthos ( t / c ) 01:23, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

Once and for all, Blaxthos, explain to me what viewpoint I am pushing by seeing a page looking like an advertisement and adding a BIAS tag. --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling (talk) 01:58, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

I believe it's been explained above. Edit warring about apparent bias in the article for months without offering non-fringe sources to verify criticism. I agree that the SPLC isn't a perfect organization - all organizations of any notoriety receive criticism - however, criticism that is not backed b reliable sources isn't going to be included on a contentious article. I'm going to have to agree that these repeating arguments are getting a little tendentious. Falcon8765 ^(TALK) 03:10, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

The question was, "what viewpoint I am pushing". Please answer that. No one has been able to so far. "Edit warring about apparent bias in the article for months without offering non-fringe sources to verify criticism" is not an answer to that, especially since the edit warring began with the people improperly removing the tag and even getting indef banned for it, in part. I understand my defense of the constant personal attacks is tedious, but I cannot help that, since, for example, this subsection seeking consensus has been turned into yet another attack LAEC section. Perhaps the tediousness is the constant attacks? So please, Falcon8765, while I wait for Blaxthos to answer, I know you to be cool. Please calmly answer, what viewpoint am I pushing by adding a BIAS tag to a page that looks like an advertisement? Thank you. --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling (talk) 04:36, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

Sorry, but I'm not going to continue feeding you. This is done; move along. //Blaxthos ( t / c ) 05:29, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

Sounds like consensus to me. Anyone against not to have the {{Bias}} tag on the page? (If no response, could some admin like Will Beback or Magog the Orge declare this discussion closed?) --Kevinkor2 (talk) 07:12, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

Will do. That appears to be the consensus above. If you have concerns about my closing this discussion, please drop me a note on my Talk page. Thanks. --j⚛e decker^talk 18:06, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Removing/disputing Krikorian source in 'fundraising' section

The following needs removed:

according to Mark Krikorian, the SPLC lobbied against the Pulitzer

This should be removed because the material fails WP:RS on several accounts.

• 1) Mark Krikorian is not a journalist or an academic.
• 2) Krikorian is the executive director of the Center for Immigration Studies, an anti-immigration group that is criticized by the SPLC.
• 3) Nowhere does Krikorian state how be came to this conclusion or his source about SPLC lobbying. In fact, the entire relevant part Krikorian wrote is in bold:

Exposés on the group have run in the Montgomery Advertiser (which probably would have won a Pulitzer but for the SPLC’s lobbying efforts against it), Harper’s, and The Nation

How does Krikorian know what the Pulitzer group was going to pick? Telepathy? Maybe its linked to the "leftist" conspiracy theory he describes in the article, again, without any evidence to support it?

• 4) The article, published by National Review, is about "The multiculturalist war on free speech takes different forms in different places." That is an editorial and fails WP:RS
• 5) The article is a hit piece in which he calls the SPLC "amateurish hackwork" and even criticizes the SPLC because it "didn’t even mention my book." This is not an academic, journalistic or any other type of WP:RS.
• 6) The claim appears no where else, but this source. That it is not attributed and comes from a target of the SPLC, that is a serious warning sign.

No attributed claim in editorial from an anti-immigration group should be used as a source. The claim is not backed by any other source. Thus, the claim isn't supported by WP:RS, doesn't warrant inclusion and should be removed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Henry00sher6 (talk • contribs) 17:06, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

The article currently does not state as a fact that the SPLC lobbied against the Pulitzer; it attributes that claim to Krikorian. His claim is found at the reliable source National Review. If you prefer, we can state this as a fact, attributed to a news story in the New York Times on April 13, 1998: "Perhaps the most vigorous challenge was filed three years ago by the Southern Poverty Law Center against a critical series by The Montgomery Advertiser in Alabama. The campaign included a letter to the board by George McGovern, the former Democratic presidential nominee. Despite these efforts, that series was one of three finalists sent to the board." Drrll (talk) 19:44, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

There is a disjoint between what the NY Times and what Krikorian wrote. The NY Times article, which you left off the title, is "Press Critics Strike Early At Pulitzers" and is about groups, including the NY Times who "filed an unusual number of complaints to the Pulitzer Prize board, challenging the facts and context of articles and trying to knock them out of the running for the awards."

The sentence you quoted was about targeting that series before it became a finalist ("Despite these efforts..."). On the other hand, Krikorian asserts "which probably would have won a Pulitzer but for the SPLC’s lobbying efforts against it" (he supplies no evidence and there is no RS that states that).

Notice the difference? Krikorian, without evidence or attribution, implies that the article didn't win because of the "lobbying" efforts. The NY Times points out it became a finalist "despite" the efforts. My questions above, including "How does Krikorian know what the Pulitzer group was going to pick?," have not been answered.

Also are you arguing an editorial in the NR is a WP:RS? An editorial by an opponent of a group has no place is using his conspiracy (that "they would have won" except...) in the article.

Yes, feel free to point out that the SPLC, like other groups, disputed facts of a piece that was then nominated for Pulitzer, according to the NY Times. Let's not use Krikorian's misreporting and conspiracy ("they would have won") from an editorial. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Henry00sher6 (talk • contribs) 21:19, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

Yes, what Krikorian (someone tarred by the SPLC who dares criticize it in a respectable source) says about the Montgomery Advertiser not winning the Pulitzer is speculative, even though it is plausible speculation, given the lengths the SPLC went to in lobbying against what could have been a PR and fundraising nightmare. But that speculation is not included in this article (though it could be--attributed to him as his opinion). What is included is backed up by the NYT source. Despite you saying "The claim appears no where else, but this source...The claim is not backed by any other source" above, you were awfully familiar with the NYT source--accessible only through paid databases--to point out its title and several details about the article.

Yes, the NYT articles states that other groups have lobbied Pulitzer like the SPLC did. But it singles out the SPLC as "perhaps the most vigorous challenge."

I see from your first post in this section that you think that the SPLC should be an arbiter of what is and what isn't a reliable source: "Krikorian is the executive director of the Center for Immigration Studies, an anti-immigration group that is criticized by the SPLC." I know that the SPLC is accustomed to glowing coverage by the national media, but even that media has not granted the SPLC such a lofty position. Drrll (talk) 02:47, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

So, if you don't dispute that that it is (1) a singular (2) speculative criticism from (3) a person who has a personal motivation to criticize that (4) appears in only one source, then why the hell are you even bringing it up? It fails almost every major content guideline, most especially WP:UNDUE and WP:WEIGHT, and is not suitable for inclusion. //Blaxthos ( t / c ) 04:17, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

Henry00sher6 is one who originally brought up the speculation and kept repeating it, even though the speculation is not in the WP article. That the SPLC has criticized Krikorian and his organization does not disqualify him from discussing the SPLC in a reliable source. Drrll (talk) 10:16, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

Drrll, you haven't addressed any of my points. Krikorian is not a journalist nor an academic. He published an editorial to argue against the SPLC's "agenda". WP:RS is clear. Krikorian's editorial is not a WP:RS.

You write "even that media has not granted" the SPLC complete praise. Yes, which is why we should use journalism and academic sources. Not Krikorian's work, who has an obvious, agenda that drives what you call is his "speculation." (Driven in part by long-running criticism by SPLC for ideological differences.) Even if you want to ignore WP:RS, Blaxthos points out it fails WP:UNDUE and WP:WEIGHT. Do you have RSes to argue against that? If not I will be removing that sentence for the several reasons I gave and the four more reasons Blaxthos gave. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Henry00sher6 (talk • contribs) 17:29, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

PS I dug up the times article after you offered a quote. I did this to verify its accuracy and after reading it I see why you failed to mention the title of the article or details in the article. But you prove my point nonetheless. According to LexisNexis, there is ONE and ONLY ONE article that makes the claim the SPLC "lobbied" against the series' NOMINATION. (The wikipedia article is misleading now because it neglects to mention they lobby against it like other groups do before it get nominated). A search for Southern Poverty Law Center + Pulitzer (or plural) has 12 hits with only one, as cited above, mentioning anything related to this. Can you find any other sources besides ONE NY Times article? (Articles from blogs or partisan hacks have no place here.) Congrats on finding the one RS that mentions this, by the way. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Henry00sher6 (talk • contribs) 17:35, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

I agree that opinion pieces like Krikorian's should not be used in Wikipedia articles to state a fact as a fact. Wikipedia does allow opinion pieces to be used for stating an author's opinion. On the issue of who is and who isn't a journalist, what criteria do we use? A degree in journalism? Nina Totenberg and many other journalists would fail on that account. Lack of participation in advocacy? Again, I would suggest that Totenberg fails on that point, and certainly George Stephanopolous does. Krikorian used to be an editor at a newspaper, has had published hundreds of pieces in National Review, as well as pieces in less ideological sources.

When I discussed what the media has not done in regard to the SPLC, I meant granting them status as an arbiter of what is an acceptable source--as you suggested they should be. What I referring to as Krikorian's speculation was what you brought up, but is not included in the WP article: "which probably would have won a Pulitzer but for the SPLC’s lobbying efforts against it." Obviously, that the SPLC lobbied Pulitzer is not speculation.

I didn't mean anything by not including the title of the NYT's article or its details. I would have linked to the article if it were available for free online. I have not done extensive searching for other sources that mention the lobbying, but certainly the NYT citation is adequate. Drrll (talk) 19:42, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

A journalist is someone employed by a news agency for journalistic purposes. That means there is oversight and fact-checking, and why we call it journalism (See: Wikipedia:Verifiability#Newspaper_and_magazine_blogs: "as the writers are professionals and the blog is subject to the newspaper's full editorial control"). Krikorian's is not a journalist (As is clear from the "speculation" or telepathy of who should have won the award.). He did not write the piece as a journalist. He is the head of a group that hopes to influence policy.

You are using Krikorian editorial to state a fact attributing it to him. That violates policy Wikipedia:RS#News_organizations per the section on opinion pieces:

When taking information from opinion pieces, the identity of the author may be a strong factor in determining reliability. The opinions of specialists and recognized experts are more likely to be reliable and to reflect a significant viewpoint than the opinions of others

As explained above: 1) you are alleging fact from an editorial. News story's establish fact, not opinion pieces. Opinion pieces are cited for opinion. 2) The writer is not an expert of non-profits, law or journalism. Krikorian fails. 3) I asked you for other sources proving WP:WEIGHT and WP:DUE. You have one source in the last 15 years that mentions this off-handily. Therefore, its not a "significant viewpoint."

Those are three specific reasons rebutting your claims by proving it fails WP:RS. If this is such a big issue you'd think several news organizations would have mentioned it. Rather, you are sourcing an editorial by the head of Center for Immigration Studies--who obviously has an agenda in slamming the SPLC and critized them for not mentioning his book! Give WP:RS about this event to prove it notable or it will be removed soon. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Henry00sher6 (talk • contribs) 20:58, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

Agree with Henry, the source is biased and therefore should not be used for a potentially libelous claim. We need to see more reliable confirmation of this before it's included. I've removed the parenthetical line (which as of 2min ago did not include the attribution to Kirk.). -PrBeacon (talk) 07:09, 3 December 2010 (UTC)

The statement was sourced to a NYT news article and is not a "potentially libelous claim." Drrll (talk) 11:56, 3 December 2010 (UTC)

That's a fair point that "a journalist is someone employed by a news agency for journalistic purposes," although I don't think that WP policy requires that. "As the writers are professionals and the blog is subject to the newspaper's full editorial control"--he is a professional and the blog may be subject to National Review Online's full editorial control (certainly his articles for the magazine are subject to National Review's full editorial control). "The opinions of specialists and recognized experts"--he qualifies as both on the issue of immigration. So he "obviously has an agenda in slamming the SPLC," but the SPLC doesn't have an agenda in slamming Krikorian? All this is moot now since I replaced the Krikorian reference with the NYT reference. Drrll (talk) 11:46, 3 December 2010 (UTC)

As explained above, an editorial can be used to explain the editor's opinion if its "significant." The citation isn't offering an opinion but a fact. (Please stop trying to use an editorial to offer facts. WP:RS does not allow it.) Since its been removed this is a not an issue. The issue now is WP:WEIGHT. Are there WP:RS that demonstrate this is notable outside the one NY Times article from more than a decade ago? If not then its not notable for inclusion. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Henry00sher6 (talk • contribs) 16:56, 3 December 2010 (UTC)

You are contradicting your earlier statement about using the NYT reference: "Yes, feel free to point out that the SPLC, like other groups, disputed facts of a piece that was then nominated for Pulitzer, according to the NY Times." There is not an issue of weight, given that within the scope of reliable sources that discuss the Montgomery Advertiser's being in the running for a Pulitzer for their series on the SPLC (that is the scope being discussed in the WP article), all of the sources discuss the SPLC's lobbying. Of course a series that ran a decade and a half ago in the Montgomery paper would have been reported "more than a decade ago." Drrll (talk) 18:02, 3 December 2010 (UTC)

Giving undue weight is the "discussion of isolated events, criticisms, or news reports about a subject may be verifiable and neutral, but still be disproportionate to their overall significance to the article topic." Unless you can demonstrate that this one NY Times piece is not undue weight, it will be left off.

Your belief that about contradicting statements doesn't remedy WP:DUE. Supply WP:RS and avoid polemics. Henry00sher6 (talk) 21:22, 3 December 2010 (UTC)

You would have a point if the pool of reliable sources discussing the Montgomery Advertiser's bid for the Pulitzer for their articles on the SPLC were larger. Also, it's tough to argue that on an American topic like the SPLC that the NYT is insufficiently prominent as a reliable source. I can also source the statement to another source that's already used twice in the WP article. Drrll (talk) 01:06, 6 December 2010 (UTC)

Either you can list sources to demonstrate "overall significance" or you can't. If its not notable in the overall coverage of the SPLC then its not notable for an article on the SPLC. Henry00sher6 (talk) 01:38, 6 December 2010 (UTC)

I've given two sources that demonstrate "overall significance" to the SPLC. You keep moving the goalpost as to providing a source besides the Krikorian source, providing a source outside the NYT source, and now needing additional sources. How many sources are you up to now that would demonstrate its significance? Drrll (talk) 15:28, 6 December 2010 (UTC)

I'm not moving the "goal post." I didn't think there was one source on it, but you found one source. Congrats, you win the prize for finding one obscure mention in one article from more than a decade ago. However, one source (or two) does not prove that out of the thousands of articles about the SPLC that specific claim has "overall significance" for an article about the subject. (Mark Krikorian is a lobbist with an agenda, not a journalist or an academic. An article where he pathetically complains that the SPLC didn't cite his book and alleges a conspiracy about an award fails RS.)

Wikipedia does not have a number. You should let the sourcing do the talking. Provide what you have and we can talk about it. If you have sources that demonstrate its relevance for an article about the SPLC then offer them up. Henry00sher6 (talk) 17:57, 6 December 2010 (UTC)

Yes, you first said the material should be removed because the Krikorian source was not a reliable source, but that the NYT source would be adequate. When I replaced the Krikorian source with the NYT source, you then said that the NYT source was insufficient and that additional sources were needed. I added another source already used in the WP article, Nieman Foundation for Journalism at Harvard to the article, but you now believe that those two are insufficient (sorry if I was unclear about my second source in the discussion above--I wasn't suggesting the Krikorian source as the second source). You are ignoring the specific language that you quoted above, "disproportionate to their overall significance to the article topic." One short sentence about the SPLC's lobbying within a lengthy article is hardly disproportionate. Discussing the SPLC's lobbying within the context of an article series about the SPLC is significant. Drrll (talk) 17:08, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

Did you even bother reading anything I posted? Just repeating yourself doesn't prove WP:DUE. Right now, you have not demonstrated that this one source overcomes WP:UNDUE. If you want another pat on the back for finding one source when I thought there was none here: good job, Drrll.

Do you have any sources that show the the event is signififance enough for inclusion? Do you have anything other than one small paragraph from one article ten years ago? If not, then you should consider that unnotable, or WP:UNDUE. (Also I'll ask you kindly not to insert it until you have consensus.)

It's really simple: If you want it included supply sources to demonstrate its notable per policy. This is completely reasonable. All the arm waving doesn't change this. Henry00sher6 (talk) 19:18, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

The threshold for something being significant enough for inclusion is discussion by reliable sources, not the arbitrary declarations of a WP editor. It was significant enough that a NYT news story about Pulitzer lobbying singled out the SPLC as "perhaps the most vigorous challenge" three years after the fact. It was significant enough in a discussion at the Nieman Foundation for Journalism at Harvard about media coverage of nonprofits to be mentioned as noteworthy for push-back by a nonprofit. If you want a pat on the back for getting the Krikorian reference removed, then you can have that pat on the back. Drrll (talk) 17:19, 8 December 2010 (UTC)

That's not the threshold and (I think) you know it. WP:RS is only one of several considerations, including WP:Due. -PrBeacon (talk) 19:52, 8 December 2010 (UTC)

Well, I guess this conversation is done and we're leaving it out since you need to take up the issue at WP:DUE. This is not the forum to argue against policy. You don't include something just because there is a source (see: WP:UNDUE or WP:FRINGE). Henry00sher6 (talk) 20:53, 8 December 2010 (UTC)

Did you actually read what I wrote? I demonstrated how it was a significant part of the NYT news story and how it was a significant in the Nieman source (which you still have yet to acknowledge exists). I would love for you to lay out your current criteria for how this issue could ever be significant enough in sources to include. Would there have to be entire stories in the NYT and/or the Wall Street Journal dedicated to discussing the SPLC's lobbying against the Pulitzer for the Montgomery Advertiser? In case you haven't noticed, WP:UNDUE has nothing in it about sources having to being fully devoted or mostly devoted to a topic for being worthy of inclusion, and if you look around WP a little, you'd be hard-pressed to find many examples of such sources being used in articles. Drrll (talk) 17:14, 9 December 2010 (UTC)

It's not worth my time to respond to your misrepresentation/straw man of my points. You've been given many chances to demonstrate this claim meeting WP:DUE with relevant sourcing. But you've failed. Henry00sher6 (talk) 19:48, 9 December 2010 (UTC)

So you really don't want to have to lay out your scenario for inclusion. I haven't failed--you have just refused to listen to clearly significant coverage by two strong sources. It's obvious from your constantly evolving standards of what's needed that you would never accept this inconvenient fact about the SPLC being included in the article. Drrll (talk) 21:05, 9 December 2010 (UTC)

Request for proper sourcing

So far all I've seen for what Drrll is calling "the NYT source" is a reference to Barringer, Felicity (1998-04-13). "Press Critics Strike Early At Pulitzers". The New York Times." into which the burden is put upon others to check. He has misrepresented sources in the past (notably at theMedia Matters article), so I'd like to request a quote from this source and some sort of further verification. Also, since Drrll is fighting for the "vigorously" qualifier, I'd like to see support for this, which the Nieman page does not provide. -PrBeacon (talk) 20:27, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

You better have solid proof that I "misrepresented sources in the past" if you are going to so easily throw around such charges. I have already quoted the relevant excerpt form the Times article earlier above in the discussion. And since the other editor has access to Lexis-Nexis, he would have pointed out if I misrepresented it. Here's the excerpt again, "Perhaps the most vigorous challenge was filed three years ago by the Southern Poverty Law Center against a critical series by The Montgomery Advertiser in Alabama. The campaign included a letter to the board by George McGovern, the former Democratic presidential nominee. Despite these efforts, that series was one of three finalists sent to the board." Drrll (talk) 17:34, 8 December 2010 (UTC)

Ok, the most blatant examples are when you leave out relevant bits of quotes or source background which would provide an important context. Even worse, trying to use sources like the Gerth anti-Clinton book for facts about Clinton and MMfA, not just opinion. See MMfA archive 5 and 6. Btw, you never acknowledged that the NYT was forced to print a retraction because of Gerth's inaccuracies in reporting. You have also attempted several times to misrepresent RS/N discussions at article talkpages like Fox News about sources which you don't like, as with MMfA. Given this history, I think we need more than your version of any quote. -PrBeacon (talk) 19:52, 8 December 2010 (UTC)

I verify that what posted on 17:34, 8 December 2010 is part of the article, but it should be pointed out that is the entire mention about the SPLC in the article. Furthermore, the entire article explains how common and why groups "lobby" against the nomination criticizing errors in the reporting. In addition, there are no claims that the SPLC "would have won" (or such unfounded allegations that Mark Krikorian made). The article pointed out the SPLC and other groups criticize the accuracy of the material. Thus, even this one mention did not dwell or focus on the SPLC, which again is telling why it is not significant to include. Henry00sher6 (talk) 21:02, 8 December 2010 (UTC)

What "relevant bits of quotes" did I leave out? Yes, I admit to using as a source the book of a respected NYT journalist, whose crime seems to be that he wasn't a full-bore Clinton apologist. A perfectly reliable source. So the Times had to print a correction for something Gerth wrote? How newsworthy is it when news sources print corrections? No, I reported on a RS/N discussion that had the widest community participation--one with an RfC. Suit yourself. Find a library with Lexis-Nexis access and see the source for yourself. Drrll (talk) 21:12, 8 December 2010 (UTC)

Retraction is a big deal in journalism, it was not just a correction. I assumed you knew the difference since you like to talk about "respected" journalists and all the (now dubious) Pulitzers they win. Yet again you're qualifying and even misrepresenting your own posts, as you attempted to frame the RS/N in more than one place. And now repeating the same tired tactic of your idealoques by putting words in my mouth -- Gerth's opinion may be reliable, he doesn't have to be an apologist to pass that muster, but his journalistic ethics are suspect. I guess you only like the NYT when it suits your purposes. And as Henry confirms, you've ommitted the context of the article in this case and the due weight consideration inherent to its use here. -PrBeacon (talk) 02:17, 9 December 2010 (UTC)

What is your source that the NYT had to publish a retraction of Gerth's work? A Lexis-Nexis search of "Major world publications" using "Gerth" and "retraction" (or "retract") found no references to such a retraction. It's hard to believe that Washington Post media reporter Howard Kurtz, for example, wouldn't have reported about such a major media event by the NYT. Do you think that a discredited reporter would have gotten a major book deal to report about Hillary Clinton? While I quoted the part of the NYT story that said "Despite these efforts, that series was one of three finalists sent to the board," sorry I didn't quote the article in it's entirety (is that even allowable under copyright law?). Drrll (talk) 17:46, 9 December 2010 (UTC)

[8] You didn't find it because the NYT didn't call it a retraction, but that's what it was. For the semantic nuances, see Safire's column from a few years ago. Of course you're free to continue equivocating, but my initial objection stands. -PrBeacon (talk) 06:43, 10 December 2010 (UTC)

Request for wider discussion

I realize that the main discussion going on in this talk page is about the lead, but I would ask that others weigh in here on re-adding a short sentence about the SPLC lobbying against a Pulitzer for articles critical of them. There is strong sourcing detailing this lobbying in a New York Times article and at Nieman Foundation for Journalism at Harvard. The editor who brought this issue up is strongly opposed to having this in the article at all despite the strong sourcing and despite having agreed earlier that the NYT source was adequate. Drrll (talk) 21:34, 9 December 2010 (UTC)

It might help encourage discussion if you: 1) lay out all the sources you have and 2) demonstrate the event meets WP:DUE-- after all those are the objections raised to adding it. Is all you have still one article from a decade ago briefly mentioning this? Henry00sher6 (talk) 23:50, 10 December 2010 (UTC)

I have demonstrated above that the 2 sources meet WP:DUE and the sources speak for themselves as to the significance of the SPLC's lobbying. Yes the sources are over a decade old precisely because the series on the SPLC by the Montgomery Advertiser was written in 1994 and nominated for the Pulitzer in 1995 (the sources on the lobbying actually occur 3 and 4 years later, respectively, which also speaks to the significance of the lobbying). Here are the sources:

• Press Critics Strike Early At Pulitzers, by Felicity Barringer, April 13, 1998, The New York Times:

"It is unclear what effect challenges have had in the four years since their consideration was allowed. Perhaps the most vigorous challenge was filed three years ago by the Southern Poverty Law Center against a critical series by The Montgomery Advertiser in Alabama. The campaign included a letter to the board by George McGovern, the former Democratic presidential nominee. Despite these efforts, that series was one of three finalists sent to the board."

• Panel Discussion: Nonprofit Organizations, moderated by Bill Kovach, May 1999, Nieman Foundation for Journalism at Harvard:

"The other point is, when this was nominated for a Pulitzer, Morris Dees, who is one of the great fundraisers for a lot of political figures in the country, mobilized some of the best-known and probably most liberal politicians in the country for whom he had raised money and they lobbied the Pulitzer Board against this series, the first lobbying that I know of of that kind, and without knowing anything about the Southern Poverty Law Center’s activities they were lobbying the Pulitzer Board not to recognize this work."

Drrll (talk) 00:53, 13 December 2010 (UTC)

If what Drrll said is true, I'll have to agree with him. Further, it appears to me what he said is true. --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling (talk) 00:57, 13 December 2010 (UTC)

1) Your sources (all two of them) contradict each other. The NY Times reports, the SPLC "challenged" The Advertisers series before it was nominated ("despite these efforts" it was "nominated"). The Nieman conference article says the lobby happened "when" it "was nominated." Which one is correct? Did this "lobbying" happen before or during the nomination?

2) WP:DUE reports: "the views of tiny minorities should not be included at all." You have two sources from a decade ago, which contradict one another. The NY Times mentions the case in passing, in one small paragraph. The second source is a quote from a conference in 1999. Do you have any proof that these contradicting reports represent a relevant view significant to include in an article? If this hasn't been discussed beyond two contradicting sources (a minor mention in a paper and a statement made by a person on a panel at a 1999 conference) in a decade how does this meet WP:DUE? The fact that these decade old sources contradict each other raise more questions about inclusion.

3) According to WP:UNDUE, giving undue weight is the "discussion of isolated events, criticisms, or news reports about a subject may be verifiable and neutral, but still be disproportionate to their overall significance to the article topic." Adding mention of something sourced to one paragraph and one speaker at a conference from a decade ago, is the very essence of giving undue weight. Henry00sher6 (talk) 03:19, 13 December 2010 (UTC)

The sources don't contradict each other. Both sources make it clear that the SPLC lobbied the Pulitzer board, whose job it is to determine the Pulitzer winners from the finalists rather than determine the finalists. The "despite these efforts" wording in the NYT article hints at additional lobbying by the SPLC (of Pulitzer jurors) before it was a finalist as well as after.

If you read further at WP:UNDUE, you'll see that "the views of tiny minorities" refers to fringe viewpoints like those of flat-earth adherents or Holocaust deniers, rather than facts reported in major reliable sources like the NYT the Nieman Foundation at Harvard. Reporting on the Advertiser's bid for the Pulitzer is (fully?) unanimous that the SPLC lobbied against it. You can't point to any required threshold of coverage within sources at WP:UNDUE for the inclusion of facts. There's no requirement that a fact reported by reliable sources be proven significant (that would make for an awfully sparse WP); the sources speak for themselves as to the significance of the fact ("Perhaps the most vigorous challenge" in the NYT source; "the first lobbying that I know of of that kind" in the Nieman source). Drrll (talk) 22:34, 13 December 2010 (UTC)

"Still be disproportionate to their overall significance to the article topic"--note that it talks about proportion not a binary not include / include scenario.

Regarding UNDUE, this SPLC article is gigantic and is (or was) filled with statements direct from the SPLC, sometimes plagiarized. We all agree to that now. I think the UNDUE argument that SPLC's effort to lobby Pulitzer is undue when viewed in the context of this giant article that is filled with material directly taken from the SPLC is laughable. Not the editors claiming UNDUE, they are doing what Wikipedia wants us to do. Just the fact that a little fact that is not complementary of the SPLC could be UNDUE in a giant article filled with SPLC advertising direct from splcenter.org is laughable. I'll bet if it were complementary and on splcenter.org, it would no longer be UNDUE. --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling (talk) 02:11, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

The two sources contradict ("lobbying" 1) before or 2) during the nomination)-- the fact that you deny that is intellectually dishonest. You only have two sources: a quote from a 1999 conference and minor mention newspaper ten years ago.

WP:UNDUE SAYS: "discussion of isolated events, criticisms, or news reports about a subject may be verifiable and neutral, but still be disproportionate to their overall significance to the article topic." The two contradicting news reports from a decade ago are "disproportionate" to "overall significance" in the article. Let me repeat, that is directly addressing news reports about an event that may be "verifiable and neutral," but are "disproportionate". You want to add in a view of the SPLC that is not worthy of inclusion because Bill Kovach's claims/view (which you want to add) are "disproportionate" to the overall article.

LegitimateAndEvenCompelling, as several editors pointed out, you don't speak for everyone so don't phrase things like that. Your perceived problems of other aspects of the article doesn't mean we add unnotable things from a decade ago to appease you. Henry00sher6 (talk) 02:41, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

Don't play games. My "perceived problems" have turned out to be actual problems that we are all now working to resolve, and even my detractors then and now refer to the plagiarism and copyright violations in this article and are working to remove them. I have another "perceived problem". It's that the SPLC trying to quash a Pulitzer award for reporting against the SPLC's interest is not undue. I am certain it can be written in a way that is not undue. And the refs may contradict on certain things, but not on the SPLC effort to quash the Pulitzer. If that was the FRC, it would be called censorship. For the SPLC, it's called undue. You really need to stick to the issues and stop maligning me with "perceived problems" or that I should not "phrase things like that" or that I seek to be "appeased". I tell you I have no issues at all with the SPLC--I'm only looking at Wiki policy. I think the constant effort to make false claims about me is a bit of psychological projection. --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling (talk) 02:54, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

Your fringe and conspiracy sources speak for themselves. Your antics reveal your motivations. But let me ask you this on what you want included: Did the SPLC "lobby" against it being nominated or did they "lobby" while it was being considered as a finalist? And was the lobby successful? Henry00sher6 (talk) 03:00, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

Ech, could you please post the sources gain? BE——Critical_{__Talk} 03:04, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

BeCritical, was that a questions for me? Henry, I am asking you politely to stop make false claims about me and to stick to the issues. --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling (talk) 03:07, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

LegitimateAndEvenCompelling, ok please answer the questions. I want to know what you want the article to say about this. BeCritical Drrll posted them above plus the Mark Krikorian at the top[9]. Henry00sher6 (talk) 03:12, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

I don't want the article to say anything. I was merely generally supporting Drrll because I believe his arguments have more merit, and because the sources he cited are compelling. I'm leaving it up to others to do the actual drafting. If you can provide other sources to counter Drrll's, I would consider them as well. Right now, Drrll has the sources and the logically superior argument, in my opinion. --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling (talk) 03:22, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

OK, here's the issue and why you might be having difficulty knowing what should be added. You can answer yes to each question or no to each question depending on the source. You see the 1998 NY Times article says the lobby happened before it was nominated ("Despite these efforts, that series was one of three finalists sent to the board.")-- the SPLC was a brief mention in the article. The Kovach statement at a 1999 conference was the lobby happened while it was nominated ("when this was nominated for a Pulitzer, Morris Dees ... mobilized some of the best-known"). And Mark Krikorian, a critic of the SPLC whose article started this discussed, claimed it would have won if not for the lobbying (without any evidence) [10]. So what do you want the article to say? There is no consistent story.

Also I have to ask if this concerns the 1995 Pulitzer Prize, why are there only two RSes and they come from a 1998 article and a 1999 conference statement, while no RSes have mentioned it since or before? Is it not notable enough? Henry00sher6 (talk) 03:34, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

Thanks, I'm not sure I can judge the notability from the quotations given, because without the total article, how much weight did the original sources give them? And although the NYT is a very good source, is this all the press that the lobbying got? Oh well, maybe I should read this whole thread. Ah, here is one. BE——Critical_{__Talk} 03:27, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

"Mr. Topping said that the board had changed its rules in 1994, permitting jurors to see such challenges because it reduces drastically the likelihood that after the process is over we make discoveries about an entry that might affect the board. " So basically the board was supposed to see such challenges? BE——Critical_{__Talk} 03:30, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

Yes, the article you linked is where Drrll's NY Times quote is from. As you can tell, a very minor mention of the 1995 event from a 1998 article. Henry00sher6 (talk) 03:31, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

Fwiw, that's Seymour Topping. --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling (talk) 03:35, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

Yes, Seymour Topping says they encourage criticism and challenges of the stories. The article is by Felicity Barringer and about how and why groups are allowed "strike" at people who are considered for the award. It points out cases where people and groups criticize reporting. One small paragraph on the last page mentions the SPLC. Henry00sher6 (talk) 03:43, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

The NYT is "all the news that's fit to print". If it's in the NYT, it's newsworthy. --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling (talk) 03:48, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

Lol, that's a kind of an advertisement line, I forget the word for those right now. But the question we have to answer is whether it's notable for an article in Wikipedia about the SPLC. and if they weren't doing anything shady then I say it's not notable. BE——Critical_{__Talk} 03:58, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

I know I'm coming into this thread late, and haven't read all of it. If this isn't a legit question, please just tell me. But if they are supposed to have the opportunity to protest, and there is only one small paragraph on SPLC there, I don't think this source justifies mention. Is the other one a lot better? Is there a link to it? BE——Critical_{__Talk} 03:47, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

<unindent to answer question> I didn't think so, but here is Drrll's other source: statements at a conference in 1999 (see bottom of page). Does that statement at a conference make this event worthy of inclusion? 04:12, 14 December 2010 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Henry00sher6 (talk • contribs)

The SPLC's lobbying against the Pulitzer was noteworthy enough in the NYT story to be singled out 3 years after the fact as "Perhaps the most vigorous challenge" (the other examples in the story were much more recent examples) and to be mentioned 4 years after the fact as "the first lobbying that I know of of that kind" in the Nieman source. We're just talking about a single short sentence or parenthetical mention of this fact in the SPLC article. Drrll (talk) 04:01, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

BeCritical you've highlighted part of the additional context I mentioned earlier which Drrll is leaving out. That and the fact the SPLC's challenges were based on factual errors in reporting. A better question is: why even mention the Pulitzer here? The newspaper didn't win and it's a second-rate award ever since the Janet Cooke fiasco in the early 80's (her story was fake, she had to give the Prize back). You might also want to read about scandals in the past decade when old awards were re-investigated, though the Pulitzer folks stopped admitting anything was wrong -- as I've pointed out to Drrll & others before. -PrBeacon (talk) 04:10, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

Drrll, if it was included do we also add a parenthetical mention that groups are supposed to make challenges? Or should that be left off? Henry00sher6 (talk) 04:15, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

I don't have a problem including that as well. Put in there that challenges are encouraged, along with the fact that (according to both sources) the SPLC's challenge was particularly noteworthy compared to other challenges. Drrll (talk) 04:28, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

For the record, since you knew it was in that article, then why didn't you add it to begin with? That the committee encourages challenges is relevant to the SPLC making a challenge, right? Henry00sher6 (talk) 04:49, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

Because I didn't know of the NYT source until later--only the Krikorian source at first. Drrll (talk) 04:56, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

Yes, why mention it if it they didn't win. And why does the parenthetical endorsed by drrll not mention that SPLC was within its rights to do such lobbying? [11]? I have no opinion on the rest of PrBeacon's post as I don't know the history for myself. And why is it notable for this article anyway? And we are considering taking that mention of the USA Today article out anyway, as it is redundant to the Harpers and Advertiser articles. I fail to see the need/weight/notability for mentioning it at all, regardless of whatever sordid history there may be surrounding Pulitzer. Let's say Pulitzer was stainless, it still wouldn't merit mention. That's because A) the article didn't win and B) SPLC was not doing anything shady by lobbying against it even if they were wrong about the substance of their complaint (is there a source saying they were lying in their complaint?). BE——Critical_{__Talk} 04:21, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

I'm open to the possiblity of removing mention of the series being a finalist. I'd like to hear some arguments for keeping it. Henry00sher6 (talk) 04:41, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

Because "despite these efforts" of a major campaign against the Pulitzer by a politically powerful group, including by the Presidential nominee George McGovern, the series ended up as one of three finalists in its Pulitizer category. Drrll (talk) 04:51, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

Re Henry00sher6's explanation for me above, I read the second source (thanks (:). My take on it is, yes it sounds like a notable event, with politicians mobilized against the Pulitzer, but if this is all the sources we have on it I doubt it merits mention. I'm willing to be convinced otherwise by more sources. BE——Critical_{__Talk} 04:43, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

When I asked for more sources above to demonstrate its significance, I got the brush off and hence this section ("Request for wider discussion") was created by Drrll. Henry00sher6 (talk) 04:47, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

So in spite of the fact that the NYT source at least is good, the coverage within that source, and the coverage within the conference, seems too little to make this article. We need more sources with deeper coverage to include it. Given such sources, it would probably merit more mention than we're giving it now, but without them it is a passing thing in which no one knows of any wrongdoing. And without wrongdoing on the part of the SPLC -or some other significance-, there isn't any reason to include it here. BE——Critical_{__Talk} 04:53, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

We're in agreement. Henry00sher6 (talk) 05:12, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

The "some other significance" is demonstrated by both sources pointing out how unique the lobbying was by the SPLC, as well as the lobbying including such political heavyweights as the Presidential nominee George McGovern. Those things put the lobbying by the SPLC in a class by itself. Drrll (talk) 05:15, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

Well if it was so significant as you say, "in a class by itself," then either you've uncovered a left-wing conspiracy of silence, or else the rest of the press didn't consider it so important. Either way, we need more sources. BE——Critical_{__Talk} 05:33, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

Considering the typical pattern of positive/noncritical coverage of the SPLC by most news outlets (e.g. from the former editor of The Montgomery Advertiser: "For many years after I first got to The Montgomery Advertiser, probably three or four, we were essentially boosters for the center. We parroted their press releases"), of which you are no doubt aware, I think it says a lot that two major sources have pointed to the unique level of lobbying by the SPLC ("perhaps the most vigorous challenge"; "the first lobbying that I know of of that kind""). How often is it that a detail is left out of a lengthy WP article because there are "only" two major sources that point to its significance? Drrll (talk) 07:17, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

What I see here is not the "majorness" of the sources- that's fine. What I have a problem with is that they both relegate this to the last one or two paragraphs of long articles. BE——Critical_{__Talk} 18:55, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

Why even mention the Pulitzer here?

So then, the question has come up in this discussion, perhaps re-phrased a bit more clumsily but generally: Is it undue weight to mention that the Montgomery Advertisers criticism of SPLC fundraising was a finalist for the Pulitzer prize? Here is the content in question:

The SPLC has received significant criticism for excessive fundraising and having excessive disproportionate reserves. ... In 1994 the Montgomery Advertiser ran a series alleging the SPLC was financially mismanaged and employed misleading fundraising practices. In response Joe Levin stated: "The Advertiser's lack of interest in the center's programs and its obsessive interest in the center's financial affairs and Mr. Dees' personal life makes it obvious to me that the Advertiser simply wants to smear the center and Mr. Dees." The series was a finalist for but did not win a 1995 Pulitzer Prize in Explanatory Journalism.

Above, Drrll characterized the SPLC's challenge as a 'major campaign' -- what is your source for this claim? Because using the given sources seems like a violation of WP:synthesis. And mentioning the Prize also reeks of a tit-for-tat response to the SPLC's counterclaim. How much back and forth should there be? -PrBeacon (talk) 07:57, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

On further reflection, I think that it was a finalist for the Pulitzer should be removed from the SPLC page. That's more of a fact for Montgomery Advertiser's article. We don't know why it wasn't selected nor is this an important point for the SPLC. Was it factual errors? Henry00sher6 (talk) 17:43, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

Mention of the Pulitzer non-win is optional in my opinion. Do any of the other encyclopedia sources mention it? BE——Critical_{__Talk} 18:57, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

Categorization?

Since the SPLC appears to be the most influential hate group watchdog in the United States, perhaps its listings should have a Wikipedia category? Something like Category:Organizations designated as hate groups by the Southern Poverty Law Center — similar to the function of Category:Organizations designated as terrorist by the United States government and similar categories. I thought it would be best to float the idea first. - Gilgamesh (talk) 12:38, 3 December 2010 (UTC)

• Opposed. I think the category is a bad idea. Imagine having a category on every political organization by every non-profit that rates the organizations. Henry00sher6 (talk) 17:01, 3 December 2010 (UTC)
• Comment - I'm not sure this is the proper venue to discuss this proposal. I'm not well versed on the procedure to suggest a new category, but wouldn't this discussion be better placed on a Category talk page, or perhaps the pump? //Blaxthos ( t / c ) 22:36, 3 December 2010 (UTC)
• Comment - Eh, I thought it might be a good idea. But whatever, I'm not really attached to it. I didn't even expect an actual vote — just a discussion. - Gilgamesh (talk) 05:16, 4 December 2010 (UTC)
• Supported As Gilgamesh said, being on the SPLC's list of hate groups is notable and a good way to find others of its kind. Dylan Flaherty 05:55, 4 December 2010 (UTC)
• Support - as nom Gilgamesh says, there are a bunch of similar categories at Category:Organizations designated as terrorist by designator. Roscelese (talk) 07:17, 4 December 2010 (UTC)
• Comment - 3 to 1 seems like a small reaction overall...but I'd also not want to advertise reactions which could be slantedly for or against. I suppose the only way to know if such a category can succeed or fail is to measure the reaction to its being launched. - Gilgamesh (talk) 05:41, 6 December 2010 (UTC)
• Comment - I have to say...while I proposed the categorization and still think it's a good idea, I'm not entirely sure I want to start it myself. Such edits, while legitimate, may be a magnet for the worst kind of extremist online behavior. And, when it comes down to it, I am not actually interested in dwelling on the world of hate, or being called back into dwelling on it because of edits I already made. It's a social underbelly whose study can have taxing effects on an editor's sanity. Wikipedia needn't shy away from such notable content, but I'm only one user on Wikipedia who makes casual edits in my free time, and I don't particularly like being excessively reminded about the myriad ways human beings can treat one another other with inhuman contempt and cruelty. I still support, but I may just have to bail from involvement. - Gilgamesh (talk) 15:04, 7 December 2010 (UTC)
• Oppose due to WP:CAT. --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling (talk) 17:43, 8 December 2010 (UTC)

Could you specify what policy at WP:CAT you're referring to? I don't see anything that would preclude the formation of a category, though a list would also be an alternative. Roscelese (talk) 22:46, 8 December 2010 (UTC)

See WP:OVERCAT. --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling (talk) 01:04, 13 December 2010 (UTC)

The lead revisited

The lead to this article has very obvious violations of NPOV. For example, it tells the reader that the SPLC "is an American 'nonprofit civil rights organization dedicated to fighting hate and bigotry and to seeking and to seeking justice for the most vulnerable members of society.' " Merely putting part of the organization's mission statement in quotes does not establish NPOV here because the structure of the sentence invites the reader to accept the SPLC's statement as fact. What we know for a fact from the source is that the organization asserts that it is dedicated to doing certain things, not that it actually does them. The lead also states that the SPLC provides "free legal service to the victims of discrimination and hate crimes." The statement is misleading because it invites the reader to believe that all the SPLC's clients have been thus victimized. What the organization actually does is to provide free legal services to people that it believes are "the victims of discrimination and hate crimes." The purpose of the cases it brings is to determine whether or not its clients actually have been victimized by discrimination and/or hate crimes. The wording as it now stands amounts to Begging the question. I have a couple of other less serious issues with the lead but will save them for now. Badmintonhist (talk) 18:08, 4 December 2010 (UTC)

"Self-published and questionable sources may be used as sources of information...."[12] You would need to show what this self-description is questionable by showing a reliable secondary source that describes the SPLC differently. TFD (talk) 18:28, 4 December 2010 (UTC)

No, you're missing my point, TFD. I have nothing against the SPLC's mission statement being used as a source provided that it is used properly. I'll give you an example here. Let us say that the mission statement of Fox News states that it is "dedicated to providing its viewers with a fair and balanced presentation of world and national news." A neutral way of using this mission statement as a source would be for Wikipedia to say something like this: "According to it's mission statement Fox News is 'dedicated to providing its viewers with a fair and balanced presentation of world and national news.' " A far less acceptable way for Wikipedia to handle it would be for Wikipedia to say: "Fox News 'is dedicated to providing its viewers with a fair and balanced presentation of world and national news.' " You might take a look at the edits of the lead that I made about twelve hours ago (since deleted) and opine as to whether they are preferable to what is there now. Badmintonhist (talk) 19:04, 4 December 2010 (UTC)

The very first sentence at [[NPOV] is, "Editing from a neutral point of view (NPOV) means representing fairly, proportionately, and as far as possible without bias, all significant views that have been published by reliable sources." Over and over again in the current discussions on POV people have been asked to produce reliable sources that present a different view from the ones reflected in the article. No such evidence has been forthcoming. Here, Badmintonhist seems to want to create doubt in the readers mind about the SPLC without providing any reliable sources that suggests readers should have such doubts.

One POV supported by reliable sources is presented in the current language. Until some other POV supported by reliable sources is introduced into this discussion, then, by definition, the article is neutral. Tom (North Shoreman) (talk) 19:14, 4 December 2010 (UTC)

Nope, Don't need to. What I'm requesting, is something that is both consistent with Wikipedia policy and with common sense. The SPLC is not a neutral third party source and particularly not neutral when describing itself. Using the subject of the article as a source for the article is fine when it comes to verifiable statements of fact ex. The stated mission of the SPLC is to fight for all that is good and against all that is bad. It is not fine when the source is used to imply that something inherently opinionated is actually a fact: ex. The SPLC fights for all that is good and against all that is bad. By the way, none of the edits that I made required changes in sourcing just significantly improved the wording. Badmintonhist (talk) 19:42, 4 December 2010 (UTC)

The issue IS NOT whether the SPLC is neutral about itself but whether it is A RELIABLE SOURCE about itself -- which it clearly is as TFD pointed out.

You are the one that brought up NPOV. NPOV is about balancing RELIABLE SOURCES. To make your case, you need to show what RELIABLE SOURCES are not included. If nobody RELIABLE disputes the SPLC's self-description, then NPOV has been achieved. Tom (North Shoreman) (talk) 20:06, 4 December 2010 (UTC)

PS You used Fox News as an example. What the lead in that article says is, "Some critics have asserted that both Fox's news reporting and its political commentary promote conservative political positions.[4] Fox News Channel says that its political commentary and denies any bias in its news reporting.[5]" In this case, there are apparently reliable sources to counter FOX's claims -- four are mentioned in the footnotes. Tom (North Shoreman) (talk) 19:27, 4 December 2010 (UTC)

Irrelevant. Whether or not reliable sources argue against Fox's self-description a far better way to present this self-description in the lead is According to its mission statement Fox News "is dedicated to providing its viewers with a fair and balanced presentation of the news." not Fox News "is dedicated to providing its viewers with a fair and balanced presentation of the news." Badmintonhist (talk) 19:58, 4 December 2010 (UTC)

P.S. The long standing motto of the New York Times is "all the news that is fit to print." not The New York Times provides "all the news that's fit to print." Badmintonhist (talk) 20:07, 4 December 2010 (UTC)

It is your introduction of Fox News into this discussion in the first place that was irrelevant -- sorry if I encouraged you. Undisputed self descriptions (the SPLC case) are different from disputed self descriptions. Tom (North Shoreman) (talk) 20:14, 4 December 2010 (UTC)

The statements made in the introduction of this article have been repeatedly demonstrated as accepted (and even stated) by countless reliable sources. Editors challenging those views must demonstrate that opposing views have gained currency in other reliable source demonstrating enough weight to mention them here. No sources, no weight, no mention. //Blaxthos ( t / c ) 20:03, 4 December 2010 (UTC)

OH, REALLY!!?? Then why does the basic description of the SPLC found in the opening sentence of the lead rely on only one source, THE SPLC ITSELF? As I stated before none of my edits made about 14 hours ago require new sources. They just improve the way the existing sources are used. Actually, perhaps one new source is required. I notice that the statement in the lead about the SPLC providing free legal representation to the "victims of discrimination and hate crimes" (as opposed to the less conclusionary "free legal representation to those it believes are the victims of discrimination and hate crimes") seems to be unsourced. Badmintonhist (talk) 20:24, 4 December 2010 (UTC)

One source is fine when the claim is non-controversial. As far as your point about "victims of discrimination and hate crimes", this is more than supported by reliable sources in the very long subsection "Notable cases." Tom (North Shoreman) (talk) 20:34, 4 December 2010 (UTC)

Tom, I have to agree. By analogy, it may well be the case that not everyone who calls the police to report a crime turns out to be a victim of crime, but it's still quite accurate to say that the job of the police is to provide recourse to victims of crimes. Dylan Flaherty 20:40, 4 December 2010 (UTC)

That's interesting. Is this the way we normally talk about law suits and the task of lawyers? By this standard a firm that defended those accused of discrimination would be described in Wikpedia as "providing legal assistance to the victims of false accusation of discrimination and hate crime." By the way, since when does a Wikipedia article become a WP:RS for the self-same Wikipedia article? Badmintonhist (talk) 21:04, 4 December 2010 (UTC)

PS: It's a good advertisement but it isn't neutrally written, encyclopedic copy. Badmintonhist (talk) 21:08, 4 December 2010 (UTC)

When you say

"By the way, since when does a Wikipedia article become a WP:RS for the self-same Wikipedia article?"

you appear to be deliberately distorting what I said. Being as the lead is a summary of the entire article, it is quite common for the documentation of the lead to be contained in the footnotes in the body of the article. Tom (North Shoreman) (talk) 21:15, 4 December 2010 (UTC)

The proper way to summarize that would be to say something like "it has won numerous cases which have provided relief to victims of discrimination and hate crimes." The existing "summation" imputes a kind of infallibility on the organization. I don't see a dimes worth of difference between the lead here and an advertising flyer for the SPLC. Badmintonhist (talk) 21:39, 4 December 2010 (UTC)

You are assuming parity between the SPLC and the organizations it describes. TFD (talk) 21:25, 4 December 2010 (UTC)

No, what I am assuming is that an encyclopedia article should employ neutral language. Badmintonhist (talk) 21:39, 4 December 2010 (UTC)

That is very assumption I have made. --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling (talk) 23:06, 4 December 2010 (UTC)

It is neutral language, unless you are assuming parity between the SPLC and the organizations it describes. TFD (talk) 23:16, 4 December 2010 (UTC)

What's with this "parity" bit? Of course we assume a formal parity in writing the articles in that we apply (or should apply) the same written standards to both. That doesn't mean we feel the same way about both . Getting back to one of my original points, perhaps someone can explain to me why they think that a lead which says "the SPLC is a civil rights organization 'dedicated to fighting hate and bigotry and to seeking justice for the most vulnerable members of society" (arguably true, but unarguably propagandistic in its wording) is somehow a more ENCYCLOPEDIC than a lead which says "the SPLC is a civil rights organization whose stated mission is a dedication 'to fighting hate and bigotry and to seeking justice for the most vulnerable members of society'" (unarguably true and not propagandistic in its wording). Badmintonhist (talk) 23:58, 4 December 2010 (UTC)

Here's an interesting passage from WP:PRIMARY:

A primary source may only be used on Wikipedia to make straightforward descriptive statements THAT ANY EDUCATED PERSON WITH ACCESS TO THE SOURCE BUT WITHOUT A SPECIALIST'S KNOWLEDGE, WILL BE ABLE TO VERIFY ARE SUPPORTED BY THE SOURCE.

The primary source in the case in dispute (opening sentence of lead) informs the "educated person" that the SPLC does indeed DESCRIBE ITSELF as being "dedicated to fighting hate and bigotry and to seeking justice for the most vulnerable members of society." However, it does not verify the reliability of that claim. Badmintonhist (talk) 01:21, 5 December 2010 (UTC)

P.S. Notice that WP:PRIMARY says nothing about editors being able to use the primary source beyond this limited purpose provided that reliable sources justify this use (which sources, by the way, are not even used in out lead anyway). It simply says that we can only use the primary for what we can clearly verify from the primary source itself. Badmintonhist (talk) 18:10, 5 December 2010 (UTC)

Badmintonhist is correct, of course. His complaint is likely part of why I added the BIAS tag. Badmintonhist, don't give up. --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling (talk) 01:49, 5 December 2010 (UTC)

This is actually very simple: it all comes down to whether there are any reliable sources contradicting the SPLC's self-description. If not, then it would be original research on our part to editorialize about what it "really" does. Dylan Flaherty 02:39, 5 December 2010 (UTC)

Don't you mean, "This is actually very simple: it all comes down to whether there are any reliable sources supporting the SPLC's self-description"? --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling (talk) 02:50, 5 December 2010 (UTC)

Let's leave it at "it depends on what reliable sources say about this self-description". Dylan Flaherty 02:55, 5 December 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, LegitimateAndEvenCompelling, you've touched on the point that I was going to make after taking a brief break from the fray. If reliable third party sources exist that have described SPLC's mission in much the same way that SPLC has described it, then why aren't they being used instead? Why use an obviously unneutral source using obviously unneutral language about itself? Using the primary source in the way that I have suggested is, pardon the puns, legitimate and even compelling. Using it the way it is currently used is illegitimate and even repulsive. Badmintonhist (talk) 03:52, 5 December 2010 (UTC)

There is also the question of plagiarism. If a direct quote is being used, or something substantially similar, it best be in quotation marks. --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling (talk) 04:00, 5 December 2010 (UTC)

Actually, Legit, putting the SPLC's description of its mission in quotation marks is one good thing about the lead as it now stands (I'm talking about the first sentence of the lead here, not the second sentence based on the Times-Picayune article). However, as I said in my opening statement quotation marks are not enough here because the structure of the sentence invites the reader to accept that description as verifiable fact. Basically, the sentence, in using the SPLC itself as a the source, should say this is how the SPLC describes its mission rather than this is what the SPLC does. Badmintonhist (talk) 15:59, 5 December 2010 (UTC)

Actually, Badmintonhist, unless you can show us some reliable sources that make that sort of distinction with regards to the organization, making such a distinction here is improper. By seemingly all accounts, reliable sources do not challenge this description (and actually use it themselves), so I suggest this is just another tendentious attempt to give undue weight to a point of view that is soundly rejected both in reliable sources and by the Wikipedia community. //Blaxthos ( t / c ) 17:28, 5 December 2010 (UTC)

No, what I'm advocating here is that we actually follow the Wikipedia rules as clearly stated about using primary sources (see my comments in bold type above or go to WP:PRIMARY itself). Badmintonhist (talk) 17:44, 5 December 2010 (UTC)

You must have missed Dylan's response: it all comes down to whether there are any reliable sources contradicting the SPLC's self-description. If not, then it would be original research on our part to editorialize about what it "really" does. Hence, I'm asking you to either produce sources or find a different grindstone. //Blaxthos ( t / c ) 18:04, 5 December 2010 (UTC)

Now why would I necessarily respond to Dylan making up his own rules? He doesn't cite anything from Wikipedia's MOS. I have. You might notice the P.S. that I recently added to my original citation of WP:PRIMARY. Badmintonhist (talk) 18:16, 5 December 2010 (UTC)

If the majority (if not all) of the available reliable sources accept their published intent as fact without contradiction, then Wikipedia has no business injecting what amounts to the opinion of two or three Wikipedia editors. Your entire argument amounts to little more than lawyering to begin with; without sources it's completely meaningless. //Blaxthos ( t / c ) 18:40, 5 December 2010 (UTC)

BLAX, BLAX, BLAX. You're precious. You haven't produced a single reliable source accepting the SPLC's "published intent" as fact. And if you did you would still be obligated to change the lead sentence in some way because WP:PRIMARY (To which, I notice you haven't responded) is quite clear on the subject. Primary sources are to be used for information clearly verifiable from the primary source itself. The subtle change that I made in the lead sentence accomplishes this objective. The lead sentence as it stands now does not. Badmintonhist (talk) 18:58, 5 December 2010 (UTC)

Common sense prevails in this matter: If we have no reliable sources questioning the SPLC's published intent, then there is nothing further to discuss. I recommend that we move on to a more productive topic. Dylan Flaherty 20:57, 5 December 2010 (UTC)

In addition, it should be noted that the only real reason why there needs to be a footnote is because the sentence is a direct quote. The key elements of the sentence are "fighting hate and bigotry", and "seeking justice for the most vulnerable members of society. Both of these phrases represent accurate summaries of the body of the article whch is adequately footnoted.

The sections "Education" and "Tracking of hate groups" are all about "fighting hate and bigotry." The section on "Litigation and Advocacy" clearly shows that the SPLC's clients are targets of organized violence, children, racial minorities, women, and illegal immigrants -- certainly "the most vulnerable members of society" is an accurate summary. Tom (North Shoreman) (talk) 21:39, 5 December 2010 (UTC)

I would agree that statements about the SPLC need to be attributed in a general way, so the reader knows that they are being given the SPLC's mission statement rather than having Wikipedia designate "hate groups" et seq. Thus my edit here. Doing so does not detract from the reader's understanding that they are in fact hate groups, nor does it indicate to the reader that the SPLC is less of a good force than it is. Attribution is a basic part of what we need to do as editors. We don't need sources which assert counter-claims to the SPLC in order to require attribution. Rather we would need multiple highly reliable sources in order to allow us to merely state something as fact without attribution. Statements of an organization about itself always need to be attributed unless backed up by highly reliable secondary sources. BE——Critical_{__Talk} 23:38, 5 December 2010 (UTC)

Common sense prevails in this matter: If we have no reliable sources questioning the SPLC's published intent, then there is nothing further to discuss. I recommend that we move on to a more productive topic. Dylan Flaherty 23:49, 5 December 2010 (UTC)

Common sense says that we don't use a primary source for fact claims about itself. We could move this to the NPOV noticeboard if you wish. It's stated above that "The statements made in the introduction of this article have been repeatedly demonstrated as accepted (and even stated) by countless reliable sources." If so, then we need to gather said sources, and use them. I should note here that I have no sympathy with the hate groups etc. which the SPLC fights. I'm sure its self-description is accurate. That still doesn't convince me that we allow a primary source to speak for itself in a factual voice. BE——Critical_{__Talk} 23:57, 5 December 2010 (UTC)

The extent to which info. in an article lead is subject to consensus. WP:LEADCITE states:

The lead must conform to verifiability and other policies. The verifiability policy advises that material that is challenged or likely to be challenged, and quotations, should be cited. Because the lead will usually repeat information also in the body, editors should balance the desire to avoid redundant citations in the lead with the desire to aid readers in locating sources for challengeable material. Leads are usually written at a greater level of generality than the body, and information in the lead section of non-controversial subjects is less likely to be challenged and less likely to require a source; there is not, however, an exception to citation requirements specific to leads. The necessity for citations in a lead should be determined on a case-by-case basis by editorial consensus. Complex, current, or controversial subjects may require many citations; others, few or none. Contentious material about living persons must be cited every time, regardless of the level of generality.

The majority of people who have responded here believe that no further documentation is required -- as I have shown the language of the sentence is adequately supported by the properly sourced body of the article. In reality, this whole discussion is simply a continuation of various discussions of charges of bias that has been going on for weeks -- discussions in which the claims of bias are a clear minority (more often than not a minority of one).

I couldn't help but notice that with this edit [13] you have apparently decided that "hate group" should be surrounded by "scare quotes". You also eliminated "is internationally known." How do you justify these changes?

In any event, the last version of the lead BEFORE the current first sentence was added is here [14]. I would be interested in seeing a specific proposal ON THIS DISCUSSION PAGE that starts with this old version and adds the current language in dispute (i.e. the mission statement) somewhere other than in the first paragraph. Tom (North Shoreman) (talk) 00:28, 6 December 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for your input, Becritical, but don't be too confident that reason and the proper application of Wikipedia rules will prevail among this crowd. I notice that your eminently well reasoned and well explained edit has already been axed. Badmintonhist (talk) 00:22, 6 December 2010 (UTC)

Watch your civility here. I won't warn you again. Dylan Flaherty 00:27, 6 December 2010 (UTC)

It certainly doesn't seem like Badmintonhist made that edit with any intent to reach consensus "among ths crowd". Of course, when your very first edit on this article (see [15]) contains the following edit summary, "My Goodness, who wrote this lead that I'm editing? The SPLC's press agent?, what should we expect? Tom (North Shoreman) (talk) 00:43, 6 December 2010 (UTC)

I call it as I see it. I think that our colleague Legit had already mentioned that most of the article read like a flyer for SPLC. But, in point of fact, the actual changes I made in the lead were quite subtle. Enough of this. I want to congratulate you, the North Shoreman, for bringing to our attention the earlier version of the lead which is an improvement on the current version. It is an improvement because, unlike the current version, it doesn't use the subject of the article to verify the accuracy of statements that it makes about itself (and thus violate Wikipedia policy). Badmintonhist (talk) 00:59, 6 December 2010 (UTC)

The scare quotes weren't meant as such, but rather just as saying that was a quote. See below. BE——Critical_{__Talk} 01:08, 6 December 2010 (UTC)

Oh, and I don't see this so much as a POV issue as just a technical problem with attribution and good writing. Of course it's controversial, but there are ways to do it without problems. BE——Critical_{__Talk} 02:58, 6 December 2010 (UTC)

re POV pushing

But the underlying issue is POV, and Tom is right to note that in Badmin's first edit to this page he is attempting to impose his consersative activism on an article which he does not like because of its subject. This is another example of his double standards compared to articles on subjects he does like. And I suspect the timing of his appearance here is no conincidence, since he and Drrll have a history of canvassing on wiki (and most likely now are conducting it off-wiki) to encourage each other's battleground tactics. It may be time again to report this kind of POV-pushing to an administrative noticeboard. -PrBeacon (talk) 20:44, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

Consensus lead

So it looks like what's needed is a lead which can acquire consensus. I should state that I do not think either side of this debate is unreasonable. Were we to boil it down, we have a concern with Wikipedia policy on the one hand, and a concern with having strong statements of fact on the other. Neither of these necessities should be ignored. I would suggest that we make a new lead here and then put it in by consensus, and let go of prior dislikes between the editors.

In writing a new lead I would suggest:

1. The SPLC's mission and goals should be fully portrayed
2. We should not use quotes
3. We should use some of the multiple sources mentioned above which describe the SPLC and its mission
4. We should also use the SPLC as a source, but not the only source.
5. We need to make a new lead working from the article, rather than from the SPLC's statements.

I do think that if people just continue to quarrel, we should seek further outside input. But we're not there yet and should try to resolve it without either personal attacks or appeals to the obvious, which encyclopedia writing often isn't especially when you have NPOV and NOR to look out for. BE——Critical_{__Talk} 01:08, 6 December 2010 (UTC)

I fully encourage you to come up with a viable alternative to the current lead and gain a full consensus behind it prior to making any changes to the article. Dylan Flaherty 03:20, 6 December 2010 (UTC)

And I'm sure I can expect your participation in this collaboration. BE——Critical_{__Talk} 04:07, 6 December 2010 (UTC)

I'm not sure I'm ready to agree with the basic presumptions of this thread. I'm not completely convinced we need to rip up the current intro and start over from scratch, nor am I convinced the current intro is made up of whole cloth from the SPLC (as in, it doesn't serve as a summary of the article). While it's well and good to make sure that we're working towards consensus, I am having trouble tossing the baby out with the bathwater because of a lawyerly assertion of policy by two or three editors well known to be friendly to right wing causes (specifically, Badmintonhist and LegitimateAndEvenCompelling). In the past month I've seen more than a dozen editors reject attempts to inject inordinate/unweighty bias into this article, and after all of those attempts failed we're suddenly going to gut the intro on the complaints of those two or three editors? I'm unconvinced there is a consensus that the current intro is unsatisfactory. //Blaxthos ( t / c ) 12:46, 6 December 2010 (UTC)

Blax, let's keep an open mind. Whatever bias they might or might not have, we should judge their suggested lead on its own merits. Dylan Flaherty 13:08, 6 December 2010 (UTC)

And my colleague Blaxthos is well known for being friendly to left-leaning ( though I wouldn't say left wing) causes. As for whether or not the present lead is an adequate summary of the entire article this is probably not the best question to ask at this time. I noticed that at least two of the sections dealing with SPLC cases are sourced entirely by SPLC publications and basically use the SPLC's own words in describing those cases. It's that kind of thing, I suspect, that prompted Legit to note the article read like a an SPLC flyer. One section that definitely does not read like an SPLC flyer, however, is the section at the end on Fund Raising. It's really more of a criticism section and at present stands out rather incongruously (for a reader who get to the end of the article) from the rest of the article which has such a boosterish tone. I think we should do something about that. Also, I think that there should be something in the lead (not a lot) which makes some reference to those criticisms.

One other thing about the opening sentence of the lead, phrases such as "dedicated ... to seeking justice for the most vulnerable members of society are really a form of peacockery as well as POV. All sorts of organizations doing very different things for different categories of people can claim to be "seeking justice for the most vulnerable members of society." It is fine to inform the reader that this is what the organization asserts that it is doing. It is not fine to treat the claim as objective truth. Badmintonhist (talk) 17:00, 6 December 2010 (UTC)

Like I said, I don't really care what they're known for or what you're known for, and I shouldn't. It comes down to whether your alternative lead is any good. So far, there's nothing to judge, so I reserve judgement. Dylan Flaherty 17:42, 6 December 2010 (UTC)

For the record, I'm not sympathetic to right wing causes. And I'm not attempting to rewrite the lead in a POV manner. However, there are other ways to write a lead which make it in compliance with WP rules and sound better and be less subject to criticism from various editors. C'mon, you don't make a lead mostly from quotes. We can just do better than this. However, I should warn those who might be sympathetic to right wing causes that such causes have little support in reliable sources, and thus this article is not likely to represent their viewpoint to the extent they would wish (though you could do a criticism section). That's not what I'm talking about here. I just want to make a better lead. I do agree with Badmintonhist that some of it sounds like peacockery at the moment; the tone isn't dry and encyclopedic. BE——Critical_{__Talk} 20:19, 6 December 2010 (UTC)

For the record, I am sympathetic to right wing causes, but I'm more sympathetic towards integrity. Dylan Flaherty 20:37, 6 December 2010 (UTC)

Wow, cool. BE——Critical_{__Talk} 20:42, 6 December 2010 (UTC)

hehe, just kidding BE——Critical_{__Talk} 20:42, 6 December 2010 (UTC)

Huh? Is the notion of integrity so strange? Dylan Flaherty 20:51, 6 December 2010 (UTC)

I meant you're a contortionist if you're both sympathetic to right wing causes and integrity. Just kidding. BE——Critical_{__Talk} 21:12, 6 December 2010 (UTC)

In the spirit of assuming good faith, I'm going to interpret that as an attempt at humor, not insult, and move on. Dylan Flaherty 21:58, 6 December 2010 (UTC)

I'm sure it was offered in jest, Dylan. I think my larger point got missed, namely that there is an implicit assumption in this thread that the introduction is noncompliant with policies and guidelines, and I am not at all yet convinced that this assumption is grounded in consensus. Before we go throwing the baby out with the bathwater, I'd like some firmer discussion around the assumption upon which the rest of the discussion is based. I do not think we should move forward with the "rewrite the intro entirely" discussion based on the opinion of a couple of editors (in any case). However, for the record, I do think it's germane to, on some level, consider the source -- if an editor has been blocked for edit warring and tendentious editing patterns based on a particular POV in the past (especially on this article), I think it is absolutely fair to ask for a stronger consensus that something is wrong with the statu quo before making drastic changes. To be quite clear, I'm not saying "everything is just fine the way it is", I'm simply saying that we should probably wait more than a few hours for editors to comment before assuming that it must be scrapped. I hope this better clarified my position. //Blaxthos ( t / c ) 22:27, 6 December 2010 (UTC)

Clever. Blaxthos, your ad hominem comments about me never end. Yes, I was blocked, but the people who got me blocked were warned that they were this close to getting blocked as well for repeatedly removing a BIAS tag placed in good faith. I am just as much a part of this talk as you are. Do not belittle my contributions. --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling (talk) 22:44, 6 December 2010 (UTC)

It was just a joke. It's not so much that the lead is POV, but that it could be better written, and written in a way which is less easy to challenge. Just for example:

• The SPLC classifies as hate groups those organizations that it has determined "have beliefs or practices that attack or malign an entire class of people, typically for their immutable characteristics." ====>
• The SPLC classifies as hate groups organizations such as the Ku Klux Klan which denigrate or assault entire groups of people for attributes which are beyond their control.

No need for quotes. BE——Critical_{__Talk} 00:00, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

Specific to your suggestion, picking a specific example is largely discouraged, as it elevates any particular group with undue weight. Giving a specific definite statement is always better than trying to convey something with a subjective example. What's to say we don't pick a different group... how about the "Council of Conservative Citizens" or the "Westboro Baptist Church" or the "Jewish Defense League"? I think Badmintonhist (I think) had it right somewhere above when he suggested the best way to go about this is to improve specific deficiencies within the article body, and then come back later and make sure that the introduction accurately reflects the article. //Blaxthos ( t / c ) 00:19, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

I like your idea. The particular sentence you are suggesting needs tweaking but I like your idea. Here' my suggestion, as tweaked from yours:

• The SPLC classifies as hate groups organizations such as the Ku Klux Klan that denigrate entire groups of people for attributes that are often beyond their control.

--LegitimateAndEvenCompelling (talk) 00:22, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

I didn't know that about specific examples. I thought saying "such as" was encouraged (and I doubt mentioning the KKK would be UNDUE); but let's tweak. Anyway, I made up a suggested first paragraph of the lead below for your comments. BE——Critical_{__Talk} 00:39, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

I suggest you review the discussion at Archive 3 in which this specific language was accepted, after heated debate, by consensus. I don't see any need to revisit that debate. The problem with referring to the KKK or any specific group in this context is that it suggests there is a typical hate group. The KKK should, however, probably be mentioned in the lede in a different, historical context since opposition to the KKK was very significant in the early days of the SPLC.

Blaxthos makes the point that there is no consensus that the lede needs to be changed. I agree with him, although, as I said, I am interested in seeing proposals that might improve the lede. It remains to be seen whether the article will remain stable enough to make tinkering with the lead worthwhile. If editors fail to first obtain consensus and start making changes to the body of the article based on the type of POV arguments that dominate the recent discussions, then it is unlikely that anything productive will be accomplished. Tom (North Shoreman) (talk) 00:52, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

It doesn't really look to me like the current lead still has consensus. As to preventing POV editing, we'll deal with that if it happens. I think the examples of hate groups should be taken out, since there have been a couple of objection. BE——Critical_{__Talk} 01:24, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

I disagree with your claim about consensus changing so easily. Archived discussion should be duly considered, as your linked policy also says, it "can guide editors on what influenced a past consensus." -PrBeacon (talk) 21:12, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

Well, I agree, however, things have changed since the last consensus. For example, there was no discussion the last time about how the Times Picuyune story may not be a reliable source after all for what's stated in the lead. So, with new things to discuss, being guided by the past is useful, but it should not be an anchor or excuse to hold us back in time. The goal here is a Wikiworthy article, not a reflection of past inadequacies. --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling (talk) 21:23, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for the source for "internationally known" (: I hate to say it... but coming up with sources like that is making a good case for not using quotes in the lead. They aren't necessary with such good sourcing. Certainly, archived discussions should be considered. But to me, it looks like that was the best that could be achieved at the time. I'll take a wild guess that the article was coming off a session of extreme POV pushing, and that was the best people could agree on. Well, that's fine. It worked for 5 months. But that doesn't mean the article is what we should aim for as a finished Wikipedia product. I don't see POV pushing in any extremem form right now; and if there is, I really feel we can deal with such. I'm not one to have infinite patience with nitpicking or wikilawyering which doesn't have some basis. But I do think there are legit concerns here and they'll keep coming up till solved. I think people need a bit of flexibility and to participate in the process. BE——Critical_{__Talk} 23:32, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

Nope, things haven't changed that much. The tired argument of "past inadequacies" is neither legitimate nor compelling -- it is your opinion, so repeating it over and over doesn't make it any more right, and several others including admins have warned you about this tendentiousness. BeCritical you seemed to be more reasonable before but now as dismissive as LAEC about the past consensus. You can't simply discard it because it's archived, five months is not that long ago. -PrBeacon (talk) 02:45, 9 December 2010 (UTC)

Version one

The Southern Poverty Law Center (SPLC) is an American nonprofit civil rights organization founded in 1971 by Morris Dees and Joseph J. Levin Jr. as a civil rights law firm based in Montgomery, Alabama. SPLC is internationally known for its free legal defense of hate group victims, monitoring of hate groups and their activities, and educational programs promoting tolerance. The SPLC classifies as hate groups those organizations which denigrate or assault entire groups of people for attributes which are beyond their control. The SPLC has successfully litigated against many such groups. SPLC publishes a quarterly Intelligence Report that investigates extremism and hate crimes in the United States.

BE——Critical_{__Talk} 00:41, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

As a general rule, I agree that quotes should be avoided in article leads whenever possible. However more important than style is substance. You have eliminated the quotes but have also eliminated important information and replaced it with less accurate language. For example:

1. The SPLC is a "nonprofit civil rights organization" as the current version says. Saying that it is "a civil rights law firm" is not the same thing since it has programs related to civil rights beyond its legal representation.
2. The second sentence in the current version is, "The SPLC "is internationally known for its tolerance education programs, legal victories against white supremacists, and its tracking of hate groups," militias, and extremist organizations. This tells the reader that the SPLC is not some local phenomena but is an organization that reaches a vast audience. Your version withholds valuable information from the reader. It also flies in the face of the consensus that was reached to add the language in the first place.
3. Your first sentence is misleading. It is dedicated to much more than "the free legal defense of hate group victims." Its dedication is to a whole range of programs that includes litigation, monitoring of hate groups, and education. The first sentence should as much as possible be a summary of what the organization does -- you have focused on one function that, today, is probably its least visible. Tom (North Shoreman) (talk) 02:15, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

Law firms can act outside the expected fee generating activities and still be considered law firms. Sometimes advocacy efforts end up affecting the bottom line, such as by creating controversy that the firm puts right. --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling (talk) 02:37, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

This is not local: "SPLC publishes a quarterly Intelligence Report that investigates extremism and hate crimes in the United States". --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling (talk) 02:41, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

Agree. Let's see how the article shapes up, then summarize the key points here. --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling (talk) 02:43, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

The SPLC is more than a law firm -- it is a civil rights organization and the article should say so.

There is no basis for eliminating "internationally known" and describing exactly what it is known for.

I doubt there are any important aspects of SPLC activities that are not included in the article. Tom (North Shoreman) (talk) 03:04, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

Tweaked it some. "Internationally known..." is that from one of the sources you can point out to me? BE——Critical_{__Talk} 03:01, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

The source is footnote 3 in the current article. Tom (North Shoreman) (talk) 03:10, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

PS The founding information seems out of place in the second sentence -- the sentences on either side logically go together since they are both discussing operations. Tom (North Shoreman) (talk) 03:16, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

Footnote 3 is a single article with a glowing review of speaker Morris Dees. Can you find a better source? People say all sorts of hyperbole when introducing speakers. --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling (talk) 03:24, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

Worse, if he is the speaker, he was likely asked for his accomplishments to be read out, so he likely made that statement and the Times Picuyune just republished it, essentially. Definitely a better ref is needed. --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling (talk) 03:27, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

Come to think of it, any claim supported by that ref may actually be directly from Dees and republished. I now have doubt that ref is valuable at all, except to take Dees's statement and set it in MSM stone. Not reliable. Get a better source or remove that sentence from the lead and anywhere else. --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling (talk) 03:33, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

Tweaked. As you say, the basic facts of the organization should come first. What it does, founded by etc. BE——Critical_{__Talk} 03:23, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

Bond was president from 1971 to 1979, but the sentence doesn't really make sense anymore. Dylan Flaherty 03:29, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

I think it's best to just take it out... it doesn't add anything really. BE——Critical_{__Talk} 03:33, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

And really, isn't there a better source like he says for the scope of its influence? BE——Critical_{__Talk} 03:35, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

See Talk:Southern Poverty Law Center/Archive 3#Compromise solution. The language was approved by an overwhelming majority just five months ago -- with LAEC dissenting. I'm not prepared to reverse that decision. Tom (North Shoreman) (talk) 04:18, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

I am not certain that is a good yard stick. The same group of people who protect this page now (such as be seeking to insert direct quotations without quotation marks since the stated material is the absolute truth) were doing so then. Others like Ink Falls, Drrll, and myself take notice from time to time, but eventually individuals like us get worn down by the buzzsaw or the pack effort to protect the page over the long term with statements like, "He's not here in good faith, Tom, and I wouldn't waste much time trying to find a compromise solution with him". Sounds like a buzzsaw to me. It's happening again ("consider the source -- if an editor has been blocked for edit warring and tendentious editing patterns based on a particular POV in the past (especially on this article)"), although I have to say recently we are all having substantive conversation for a change. Besides, clearly the editors here are different and may come to a better solution than in the past. A consensus is not a consensus forever. --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling (talk) 04:36, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

I also support this language. Dylan Flaherty 04:21, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

What language? BE——Critical_{__Talk} 04:26, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

Click the text with the underline. It's called a hyperlink. If you click the link, you'll see that the discussion is about the previous lead. Dylan Flaherty 04:27, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

I'm sorry, I didn't realize at first that you were referring to the previous lead which we're already discussing here. I'm glad people came to a consensus back then, but I'm under the impression that the current lead no longer has consensus, and also that we are on our way to a lead which is much better done. Using quotations from the SPLC itself and what seems to be a puff piece isn't a good way to write a lead, even though the information is correct. This is an encyclopedia, and should be written as such. However, I'll wait to hear from others. I'm responding here to complaints and what I consider obvious deficiencies in the current lead. But I don't want to waste my time if there is no desire by editors here to improve it. I understand the desire to stand by a past consensus, but I don't understand an unwillingness to improve the lead when there is no POV pushing involved, and all that is happening is that we're trying to make it more encyclopedic. Really, I think perhaps the rewrite didn't go far enough... a new lead should be drawn directly from the sections of the article. In other words... Either the current lead is better than I understand, or else it's that people are afraid to change because they think it is the thin end of the wedge. But that's not going to happen; Wikipedia is stronger than it seems. BE——Critical_{__Talk} 04:55, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

This doesn't have anything to do with the "strength of Wikipedia", and everything to do with building consensus. Certainly consensus can change, however if a particular section (especially the introduction) has already been through the wringer in which a previous consensus was hammered out then the burden of proving consensus has changed is much higher. Since LAEC has admitted that three editors lurk and "take notice from time to time" and that he's been soundly rejected in the past, and given his recent behavior on this page, and given the large number of editors that have challenged his attempts in the last 30 days, I'm absolutely unwilling to scrap that hard-won consensus because of two or three editors who never agree with consensus in the first place. You're going to have to show a broader base of community support before tossing out an introduction backed by the previous compromise solution. //Blaxthos ( t / c ) 12:49, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

"[G]iven his recent behavior on this page, and given the large number of editors that have challenged his attempts in the last 30 days". So says Blaxthos who never misses a chance to go on the attack. He attempts to discount my opinion repeatedly to elevate his own, as he has just done, again. Perhaps it is time to turn the tables on the guy who persistently attacks other editors here. Perhaps Blaxthos's contributions should be discounted where he attacks again, again, again, again, and again, without end. People should not be intimidated by such a person who clearly continues to flog me to send the message not to follow in my footsteps of being one of the few persistent editors who opposes his soapbox merely by seeking the application of Wiki rules.

Blaxthos, will you stop attacking me? Fellow editors, can something be done to stop Blaxthos from attacking me gratuitously? We want to talk about issues here and not waste time as Blaxthos continues attacking again and again and again, ad nauseum. Aren't people tired of this yet? He just based his refusal to budge on claims about my behavior in the past. How convenient, no? --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling (talk) 14:41, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

By the way:

Thank you, Dylan, for undoing my edit. I made my edit before realizing there was a discussion on the talk page, and then I was too stubborn^{[right word?]} to revert myself.

--Kevinkor2 (talk) 19:17, 8 December 2010 (UTC)

Not meaning to insult anyone who has previously worked on it, the article has serious problems which should not be ignored. They start with the opening sentence of the lead which quotes a portion of the SPLC's mission statement, quoting it as fact rather than noting it as fact in contravention of WP:PRIMARY. This "fact" includes a textbook example of peacockery, to wit: that the organization is dedicated to . . . seeking justice for the most vulnerable members of society, exactly NOT the kind of thing an encyclopedia is supposed to say per WP:NPOV. "The most vulnerable members of society," unlike, say, "the victims of Klan violence" is an inherently nebulous concept. That's one reason why you don't quote an organization's boilerplate as fact (ex. Operation Rescue stands up for the most helpless among us.) I also happen to believe that Legit is probably correct about the Times Picayune article, whose words are quoted in the next sentence. It reads pretty much like a puff piece largely gleaned from the organization's own copy. In any case we should avoid stringing quotes together to compose the lead (and other parts of the article as well). I would suggest that we first fix the lead, which badly needs fixing and then go to the body of the article which also needs work (some sections are entirely sourced by the SPLC itself). Then we can go back to the lead if the changes in the body require it. Badmintonhist (talk) 14:32, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

LegitimateAndEvenCompelling, no, no one can keep people from attacking you inless they unsult in a very extreme way. That's just the way Wikipedia works, but you can comfort yourself by noticing that it makes other editors mistrust and dislike the person who's insulting you. Of course, both sides of this debate have been insulting each other. The personal attacks at this level need to be completely ignored. Don't respond to them any more, period, unless they can be reported to AN/I. Either that, or if you can establish goodwill with the editor, then discuss it in private. And please listen to what people are saying rather than what POV they have. I cannot help agreeing that this lead -and article- needs work, and what is there now really is, indisputably, presenting primary sources as fact. We can write a lead presenting the same information in a way which is much easier to maintain, as I tried to do above. And were editors to step back just second, they would notice how unencyclopedic the lead really is. I was trying to re-write it, but people just want to go with a previous consensus. Now, I really don't want to be involved in controversy to this extent. However, I'm willing to keep going here if I'm in some way wanted. We could go to mediation, also. But with just a little flexibility, we still might resolve this here, don't you think? BE——Critical_{__Talk} 20:15, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

Agree. And thanks for the advice. I will endeavor to follow it. --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling (talk) 21:26, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

Point of order -- stating that I do not believe someone is here in good faith is not a personal attack, as defined in the relevant policy. Please stop equating the two. If you need some examples of each or further education on the difference I'll be glad to go into more detail on user talk pages (just ask), but please stop playing the bullshit victim card. There have been no "personal attacks", just observations by many admins/editors (not just me) in the last 30 days that you're tendentious here and elsewhere -- see here, here, here, et cetera. So that being said, several of the now-objecting editors participated in the original consensus discussion. They refused to join with the rest of the editors in forming consensus (10 or 12, if I recall correctly), and so that they now continue to object is absolutely not justification for ignoring the work product from that discussion. To be quite clear, a cadre of 2 or 3 doesn't all of the sudden trump the consensus of 10 or 12, especially when those 2 or 3 participated in the original discussion. Wikipedia shouldn't be a waiting game or "wear down the other editors by bringing the same issue up over and over". //Blaxthos ( t / c ) 22:24, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

Regading "internationally known The same term is used in a very detailed article from the "Encyclopedia of American Civil Liberties" at [16]. Although the author of the article is not available on the Google Books version, I was able to determine from Amazon that it was written by Salmon A. Shomade (see [17] for his qualifications as a reliable academic source.) Tom (North Shoreman) (talk) 21:31, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

That's a great source, thanks (: You're making it unnecessary to use quotes, you know :P What I want to do is to make this article/lead more like that one, in other words more like a professional encyclopedia. That's all I'm trying to do. BE——Critical_{__Talk} 23:41, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

Version 1.1

Using Version one as the starting place, I have taken the following into consideration:

1. Eliminated any quotations.

1. Retained references to "internationally known" due to the second source that I identified.

1. Removed the general reference to "fighting hate and bigotry" and "most vulnerable members". I have replaced them with more specific information on how the SPLC fights hate and bigotry and described who its clients actually are.

I would also suggest a third paragraph that would focus on a summary of the history and current state of the SPLC's education programs and a fourth paragraph (see [18]) for guidelines on the size of a lead section) that summarizes the section on "Tracking of hate groups".

The following is my proposal, recognizing of course that the current consensus is to retain the current version and that at least two of the proponents against the consensus are simply POV pushing. My proposal, I believe, maintains the current neutral POV.

The Southern Poverty Law Center (SPLC) is an American nonprofit civil rights organization internationally known for its free legal defense of hate group victims, monitoring of hate groups and their activities, and educational programs promoting tolerance. The SPLC classifies as hate groups those organizations which denigrate or assault entire groups of people for attributes which are beyond their control. SPLC publishes a quarterly Intelligence Report that investigates extremism and hate crimes in the United States.

The SPLC was founded in 1971 by Morris Dees and Joseph J. Levin Jr. as a civil rights law firm based in Montgomery, Alabama. They were quickly joined by civil rights leader Julian Bond who served as president of the board from 1971 to 1979. Its litigating strategy involved filing civil suits for damages on behalf of victims of discrimination with the goal of financially damaging the groups and individuals who directed the discrimination. While they originally focused on the Ku Klux Klan and other white supremacists, throughout the years they have become involved in cases concerning illegal segregation by groups such as the YMCA and Alabama State Police, welfare rights, work place rights for women, the constitutionality of the death penalty and its disparate application to African Americans, and the rights of adequate representation for poor African Americans in criminal trials. Tom (North Shoreman) (talk) 23:57, 8 December 2010 (UTC)

A much better sounding lead than the present one, however what's in the article on welfare rights, the rights of women, the death penalty, and the rights of criminal defendants? Minus that stuff in the last sentence, I could work with it.Badmintonhist (talk) 00:42, 9 December 2010 (UTC)

It's great, much like what I was talking about when I said that I didn't go far enough in the first proposal. We should write the lead from the article. I think though that there are major sections on neoconfederate movement, fundraising, maybe other stuff. What if we worked out an extension of this tomorrow? BE——Critical_{__Talk} 08:33, 9 December 2010 (UTC)

Um, having time to read more carefully your proposal, I think I agree with you all the way round, and only would add something about fundraising. BE——Critical_{__Talk} 09:03, 9 December 2010 (UTC)

Version two

How's something like this?

The Southern Poverty Law Center (SPLC) is a nonprofit American civil rights organization whose stated mission is "fighting hate and bigotry and seeking justice for the most vulnerable members of society." [source] It has conducted tolerance education programs, won legal victories against white supremacists and their organizations, and tracked the patterns of hate groups, militias, and other extremist movements. [source] The SPLC classifies as hate groups those organizations that it determines "have beliefs or practices that attack or malign an entire class of people, typically for their immutable characteristics." [source] The FBI lists the Center as a resource in its investigation of hate crimes.[source]

Based in Montgomery, Alabama, the SPLC was founded in 1971 by Morris Dees and Joseph J. Levin Jr. as a civil rights law firm. Civil rights leader Julian Bond later became its first president. [source] In addition to providing free legal services to those it determines are the victims of hate crimes, the center publishes a quarterly Intelligence Report that investigates extremism and hate crimes in the United States.

Spurning legal fees for itself and any share of the legal judgments awarded to clients, the SPLC's programs are financed by the proceeds of its fund raising activities. [source] The nature of the Center's fund raising efforts and its allocations of funds have come under some criticism during the the last two decades. [sources] Badmintonhist (talk) 20:33, 8 December 2010 (UTC)

You have basically ignored the discussion of including quotes in the lead, ignored all of the input from folks who objected to your initial edit in the first place, and simply shuffled your preferred language. And you want to elevate fundraising, a minor part of the article, to the lead? BeCritical's version is a much more workable version for further discussion. Tom (North Shoreman) (talk) 20:56, 8 December 2010 (UTC)

Not such a minor point. It takes up pretty much the whole last section of the article and comes, I might add from non-conservative sources (in the case of Cockburn, a left-wing source, actually). As for the quotes . My point was the the first one is handled improperly which it most emphatically is. Badmintonhist (talk) 22:53, 8 December 2010 (UTC)

• Opposed. Aside from the specific content issues addressed by Tom above, I also object to Badmin's continued attempts to impose his conservative activism into an article which he has not worked on at all. (I think) he knows he should work on improving the article's body text first, rather than to barge in here and start tearing up a lead which has undergone extensive discussion and collaboration, but then again I really haven't seen much if any collaborative effort from him in the past. This is yet another example of his double standards compared to how he discusses/edits articles on subjects he likes. See the section above for earlier (similar) objections. -PrBeacon (talk) 02:34, 9 December 2010 (UTC)

As with much that you write, don't think that many people are paying much attention to the "section above," Beacon. Badmintonhist (talk) 02:52, 9 December 2010 (UTC)

Heh, that's just another weak retort when you have nothing substantial to say. Put some effort into working on the article as a whole then others here may take you more seriously. Otherwise, you're a drive-by POV warrior, as usual. -PrBeacon (talk) 03:36, 9 December 2010 (UTC)

Stop taking up space here. Put rants on my talk page if you wish.Badmintonhist (talk) 03:50, 9 December 2010 (UTC)

Badmintonhist, this is blatantly uncivil. Please redact it. Dylan Flaherty 04:01, 9 December 2010 (UTC)

No, Dylan. You must have meant to ask Beacon to to redact his comments beginning with his "above" nonsense from Dec 7. Surely you realized that he started it. Badmintonhist (talk) 04:21, 9 December 2010 (UTC)

Fortunately for us, Badmin is not the talkpage moderator. Or was that another attempt at "humorous comeback"? As (some) others above have already noticed, he's not here in good faith and it's certainly appropriate to say so. -PrBeacon (talk) 04:07, 9 December 2010 (UTC)

• Reluctant. I'm not happy with the current state of the proposed lead. It needs more work, both in terms of balance and writing. Dylan Flaherty 03:05, 9 December 2010 (UTC)

FRC response to SPLC

"SPLC's Cowardly Lyin'", FRC, 8 December 2010 - brand new response from FRC about SPLC listing it as a hate org. The response appears to contain material that might fit into this Wiki page, and it contains links to other potentially reliable sources as well. I won't comment on what it is saying or linking now, but it appears both may be useful for building this page. I'm adding a similar note to the FRC page. I'm wondering if the propaganda page and the censorship page might benefit from this as well. --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling (talk) 01:40, 9 December 2010 (UTC)

Legit, do we really need this now? I think we got enough to deal with with the article already without getting involved with a current blow by blow between the two organizations. Badmintonhist (talk) 02:12, 9 December 2010 (UTC)

No, not now. No rush. And I'm not even suggesting anything, other than it is worth people taking a look. --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling (talk) 03:37, 9 December 2010 (UTC)

I wouldn't give FRC (or any other hate group, for that matter) the dignity of mentioning it or its response in an encyclopedic article (thus violating WP:UNDUE). I'm sure he's just trying to "enjoy the battle", eh Badmintonhist? All editors should be researching what reliable sources say about the SPLC instead of trolling the internets for self published sources that support a pre-determined agenda. //Blaxthos ( t / c ) 04:03, 9 December 2010 (UTC)

Trying to egg people on, Blax? Badmintonhist (talk) 04:10, 9 December 2010 (UTC)

Bad, having read what Blax linked, I'm thinking maybe you're not in any position to talk. Unless you have something to say about the article, I think you need to find another subject. Dylan Flaherty 04:16, 9 December 2010 (UTC)

I don't like seeing tag-team against guys whose views are disapproved of by the majority in a particular article AND YOU SHOULDN'T LIKE IT EITHER. That's what civility is supposed to be about. Badmintonhist (talk) 04:26, 9 December 2010 (UTC)

You call it tag-team, we call it consensus. No matter what you call it, it means you need to find a subject where you have some traction. Dylan Flaherty 05:51, 9 December 2010 (UTC)

@Badmin: ^More hypocritical lecturing. Until and unless you make the same argument/defense of minority views at articles like Fox News, your words here ring hollow. -PrBeacon (talk) 04:47, 9 December 2010 (UTC)

While I can't disagree, I would prefer that we assume good faith and try to remain civil. There are nicer ways to deliver bad news. Dylan Flaherty 05:51, 9 December 2010 (UTC)

No, I don't "need" to do what you suggest. I don't scare off. I enjoy the battle when "editors" like you make it one. Badmintonhist (talk) 06:03, 9 December 2010 (UTC)

See, where you goofed up is in thinking there's a battle here. It turns out that Wikipedia is not a battleground, and attempting to edit as if it were is a sure way to get blocked. Dylan Flaherty 06:12, 9 December 2010 (UTC)

No, you see I said when EDITORS LIKE YOU make it one. In telling someone to get lost YOU make it a battle. Badmintonhist (talk) 06:25, 9 December 2010 (UTC)

I told you to accept the consensus on this matter and move on to something that's still open to discussion. If you want a battle, you'll have to play all sides, because I've already moved on, even if you won't. Dylan Flaherty 06:48, 9 December 2010 (UTC)

Ok, calm down everyone. Like notice I did not respond to you-know-who. All this talk turned attention away from the issue at hand. The issue is "SPLC's Cowardly Lyin'", FRC, 8 December 2010, might contain material that might fit into this Wiki page, and it contains links to other potentially reliable sources as well. If you want me to make suggestions why, I will, but I would rather let others do so since I placed the link here. --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling (talk) 18:01, 9 December 2010 (UTC)

I agree with you on calming down, Legit, but as for the article why don't we focus on a LEAD for the article that now exists. Badmintonhist (talk) 18:07, 9 December 2010 (UTC)

Fine with me. --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling (talk) 18:12, 9 December 2010 (UTC)

Version three

Hi everyone,

I just quickly read a report by Jerry Kammer. This report is described in the Center for Immigration Studies article:

In March 2010, CIS published a report written by Jerry Kammer, a Pulitzer-Prize winning journalist, and senior research fellow at CIS, that was sharply critical of the SPLC, its tactics and methodologies, and its attacks against groups such as CIS, NumbersUSA, and FAIR.<ref name=Kramer>Kammer, Jerry. "Immigration and the SPLC: How the Southern Poverty Law Center Invented a Smear, Served La Raza, Manipulated the Press, and Duped its Donors." Center for Immigration Studies. March 2010. Retrieved April 13, 2010.</ref>

The reason why I bring it up is that the report summarizes some descriptions of SPLC:

Here is how stories that reported on the hate-group designation identified the SPLC:

• “an independent group based in Montgomery, Ala., that monitors racist organizations” — The Washington Post[33]
• “a civil rights organization.” — Des Moines Register[34]
• “a civil rights group based in Montgomery, Ala., with a history of monitoring racist organizations.” — Cox News Service[35]
• a group that “monitors and investigates hate activity across the U.S.” — Arizona Republic[36]
• “a group that tracks hate crimes nationwide.” — Arizona Daily Star[37]
• “an Alabama-based civil rights law firm that tracks hate groups nationwide.” —Las Vegas Review Journal[38]
• “a watchdog group” — AP story in San Jose Mercury News, Chicago Tribune, Richmond Times, Lexington Herald Leader, and Grand Rapids Press[39]
• “a Montgomery, Ala.,-based civil rights group that monitors extremist activity” — Nashville Tennessean[40]

Not all the stories that reported the hate group designation showed such a superficial understanding of the SPLC and its immigration politics. The New York Times noted that it is “a group in Alabama that favors legalization measures” for illegal immigrants.[41]

David Crary, a national writer for the Associated Press, added this observation of the SPLC’s work: “Critics of the law center, including FAIR, contend that the periodic reports on hate groups exaggerate the threat to public safety and inflate the total by including entities that are little more than websites or online chat rooms.”[42]

Crary’s reporting also included information that other reporters ignored. He noted that FAIR’s official position is that immigration policy should reflect “no favoritism toward or discrimination against any person on the basis of race, color, or creed.”[42]

But most of the reporting added no context beyond a predictable denial by FAIR, which found itself in the awkward position of the man who is asked if he has stopped beating his wife. The stories simply reported that FAIR had “strongly” or “vehemently” denied the allegations.

References:

[33] Spencer Hsu, “Immigration, Health Debates Cross Paths, Activists on Both Sides Step Up Efforts,” The Washington Post, September 15, 2009.

[34] Roos Jonathan, Radio show on immigration spurs dispute, Des Moines Register, December 20, 2007.

[35] Eunice Moscoso, “Immigration Reduction Groups Frustrated,” Cox News Service, August 7, 2008.

[36] “Anti-Immigration group wants in,” Arizona Republic, August 2, 2009.

[37] Carmen Duarte, “Debunking the crime myth about migrants,” Arizona Daily Star, September 22, 2008.

[38] Lynnette Curtis, “Poll: Most see harm to budget” Las Vegas Review-Journal, February 25, 2009.

[39] Hate groups targeting Latinos, watchdog says,” San Jose Mercury News, March 10, 2008.

[40] Michael Cass, “English-first backer tied to alleged hate groups,” The Tennessean (Nashville), August 19, 2008.

[41] Julia Preston, “A Professor Fights Illegal Immigration One Court at a Time,” The New York Times, July 21, 2009.

[42] David Crary, “Report links anti-immigrant sentiment to rise in hate groups,” The Associated Press State & Local Wire, March 10, 2008.

(By the way, "Do you still beat your wife?" is a classic example of a loaded question.)

I suggest that this could be the basis of a lead paragraph:

The Southern Poverty Law Center (SPLC) is an American independent[33] civil rights organization[33] founded in 1971 by Morris Dees, Joseph J. Levin Jr., and Julian Bond[43][44] as a civil rights law firm[38] based in Montgomery, Alabama[33][35][38][40][41]. SPLC monitors racist organizations,[33][35] investigates hate activity,[36] tracks hate crimes and hate groups,[37][38], and monitors extremist activity.[40] It favors legalization measures for illegal immigrants.[41].

Additional references:

[43]"Attorney Morris Dees pioneer in using 'damage litigation' to fight hate groups". CNN. September 8, 2000. Archived from the original on June 18, 2006. Retrieved 2007-08-17.

[44]With Justice For All November 5, 2006; The Times Picayune

--Kevinkor2 (talk) 13:36, 9 December 2010 (UTC)

That last sentence sticks out, because it's a statement about their views, not what they do. Dylan Flaherty 14:35, 9 December 2010 (UTC)

I checked out the Preston article. It is not an article about the SPLC and in fact contains only one mention at the end of the article of the SPLC. This brief mention begins, "The Southern Poverty Law Center, a group in Alabama that favors legalization measures, has named FAIR a hate group, claiming a history of “associating with white nationalists” by its founder, John Tanton." One appositional expression in one article does not justify including this in the article lead. Nowhere in the Times article (see [19]) or the wikipedia article is their any description of what legalization measures the SPLC might advocate -- you leave way too much to the reader's imagination.

There has been a long discussion about the lead and several proposals for language changes. You have bypassed those suggestions without any effort to explain your reasons for doing so. Tom (North Shoreman) (talk) 14:51, 9 December 2010 (UTC)

PS Exactly why is anything FAIR says relevant to this article? There isn't a single reference in the existing article concerning FAIR and it is hardly a reliable source for any general criticisms of the SPLC. Tom (North Shoreman) (talk) 15:02, 9 December 2010 (UTC)

As far as I can tell, it's not. Dylan Flaherty 17:25, 9 December 2010 (UTC)

Assuming a new lead is written soon, which it should be, it should be written for the article as it now exists. Badmintonhist (talk) 18:01, 9 December 2010 (UTC)

Lots of assumptions there. I still don't see how any of these proposals are better than the current consensus version agreed upon by 10+ editors, nor do I see any consensus that it needs changing at all... consensus doesn't require unanimous agreement, and several of those calling for a rewrite now were ones who refused to engage in consensus during the original discussion. //Blaxthos ( t / c ) 18:05, 9 December 2010 (UTC)

If you don't think that any of the new proposals are better than what already exists then I guess you don't know as much about Wikipedia rules and guidelines as I've always assumed you did; rules and guidelines such as WP:NPOV, WP:PRIMARY, and WP:PEACOCK violated in the very first sentence. Do you plan to respond to those? Badmintonhist (talk) 18:14, 9 December 2010 (UTC)

This reads like a personal attack. I'd recommend that you redact it. Other than that, do you have anything substantive to add? Dylan Flaherty 18:23, 9 December 2010 (UTC)

What gives?

For an article that has existed for almost seven years and has received, by my rough reckoning, at least a couple thousand edits, it seems more than passing strange to me that substantial sections of it are sourced entirely by SPLC publications using language almost identical to what is found in them. To say that they are paraphrased insults paraphrasing. Badmintonhist (talk) 00:43, 10 December 2010 (UTC)

Fomenting more battle-minded discussions by asking rhetorical questions and making generic conspiratorial accusations of plagerism is unhelpful; instead, could you please list specific references and why you believe they're improper or inaccurate? Thanks. //Blaxthos ( t / c ) 01:08, 10 December 2010 (UTC)

I think you mean plagiarism. For starters, go to the subsections I that have have recently templated and compare the language found in them to the language found in the SPLC newsletters that they are based on. I say for starters because I haven't gone through the entire article yet. When I said, only half-facetiously, that the lead read as if it were written by the SPLC's press agent I didn't realize that much of the body basically was.Badmintonhist (talk) 01:41, 10 December 2010 (UTC)

When I added the BIAS tag for claiming the page read like an advertisement for SPLC, I had no idea that the text was verbatim copied. Some here have even removed quote marks from quotations saying they were absolutely true anyway so there was no need to use quotation marks. If it is true that this article is plagiarized in any way, that is very serious. It should be rooted out. --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling (talk) 02:08, 10 December 2010 (UTC)

Ah c'mon, Legit. Had to have been a vandal. No real editor would have done that. Badmintonhist (talk) 02:31, 10 December 2010 (UTC)

Bias tag due to plagiarism

I am adding the BIAS tag as the article contains plagiarized material, I have found one instance of an entire subsection plagiarized, and I do not know the extent of the situation, except another editor in a section above has noted it is likely. Indeed I have confirmed it. The BIAS tag must stay on the article until the plagiarism is cleaned out. I added another BIAS tag a short time back because the page looked like an advertisement. Now I know why.

Here's what Wikipedia now says about the SPLC, and I will emphasize the exact copying, though the rest is often substantially similar:

In 1979, over 100 members of the Invisible Empire Klan, armed with bats, ax handles and guns, clashed with a group of peaceful civil rights marchers in Decatur, Alabama.

Two marchers were shot in the head and face. Others were beaten with clubs and sticks.

The FBI did not find enough evidence of a conspiracy to charge the Klansmen involved. The SPLC filed a civil suit, Brown v. Invisible Empire, Knights of the Ku Klux Klan, in U.S. District Court for the Northern District of Alabama in 1980 against the Invisible Empire and numerous Klansmen. During court discovery procedures, SPLC uncovered evidence that convinced the FBI to reopen the case, and nine Klansmen were eventually convicted of criminal charges.

In 1990, the civil suit was finally resolved through a unique settlement, requiring the Klansmen to pay damages, perform community service, and refrain from white supremacist activity.

In a unique addition, the Klansmen were also required to attend a course on race relations and prejudice, taught by the leaders of the civil rights group they attacked back in 1979.

And here is the material plagiarized, namely, what the SPLC itself says about itself (here):

In 1979, over 100 members of the Invisible Empire Klan, armed with bats, ax handles and guns, clashed with a group of peaceful civil rights marchers in Decatur, Alabama.

Two marchers were shot in the head and face. Others were beaten with clubs and sticks. Forced to flee for their lives, they abandoned plans for a peaceful demonstration and sought safety.

Though the FBI investigated and could not find enough evidence of a conspiracy to charge the Klansmen, the Center filed a civil suit against the Invisible Empire and numerous Klansmen. Center investigators uncovered evidence that convinced the FBI to reopen the case, and nine Klansmen were eventually convicted of criminal charges.

The Center's civil suit was finally resolved around 1990. The settlement required Klansmen to pay damages, perform community service, and refrain from white supremacist activity.

In a unique addition, the Klansmen were also required to attend a course on race relations and prejudice, taught by the leaders of the civil rights group they attacked back in 1979.

I note someone has added a "non-primary source needed" tag, and a ref contained a link to the plagiarized page, but neither is an excuse for plagiarism.

This is clear plagiarism. The page looks like an advertisement and may contain more plagiarism. The BIAS tag should stay until the plagiarism is cleaned out or until a more suitable tag replaces the BIAS tag.

And I think we need to think about which editors have been adding and/or readding plagiarized material and what are the consequences for that. --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling (talk) 02:42, 10 December 2010 (UTC)

WP:PLAGIARISM is relevant.--LegitimateAndEvenCompelling (talk) 02:46, 10 December 2010 (UTC)

"It may not always be feasible to contact the contributor. For example, an IP editor who placed text three years ago and has not edited since is unlikely to be available to respond to your concerns. Whether you are able to contact the contributor or not, you can also change the copied material, or provide the attribution, or source on your own. Material that is plagiarized but which does not violate copyright does not need to be removed from Wikipedia if it can be repaired. Add appropriate source information to the article or file page, wherever possible. With text, you might move unsourced material to an article's talk page until sources can be found." From WP:PLAGIARISM. --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling (talk) 02:50, 10 December 2010 (UTC)

Bias and plagiarism are two different things. You make a good case for plagiarism. See Wikipedia:Plagiarism on how to address it properly -- I don't see anything there about adding a bias tag. You seem to be using this as an excuse to edit war over something that was decided by consensus only seven days ago. Tom (North Shoreman) (talk) 02:52, 10 December 2010 (UTC)

Tom, don't go down the "edit war" path. There is clear plagiarism here. The article is de facto biased until the plagiarism is resolved. The key here is to clean out the plagiarism, not to start finding fault with the editor reporting the plagiarism. I am truly shocked how quickly the fault finding began, but at least you admit I "make a good case for plagiarism". Good. By no means am I edit warring. --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling (talk) 02:58, 10 December 2010 (UTC)

Is it plagiarism? Probably so, though it has been edited and looks like the work of a novice, good faith attempt to research the SPLC with an over-reliance on their own publications. Does that equate to the claim of bad-faith bias? Most certainly not. Is {{bias}} the prescribed remedy in WP:PLAGIARISM or WP:PRIMARY? Absolutely not (but who reads policy?). Should you persist in placing a bias tag after a 12 editor consensus was clear in that it is not warranted, and after you were scolded all over Wikipedia and eventually blocked for edit warring over tendentious bullshit? Probably not. Does over templating this article with meticulous whilst posting mutually supportive, combative smartassery on talk pages make you two look like tendentious dicks? I certainly think so, but it certainly plays into my previous observations about the faith in which you edit. //Blaxthos ( t / c ) 03:01, 10 December 2010 (UTC)

Blaxthos's personal attacks on two editors at once ("tendentious bullshit"; "mutually supportive, combative smartassery on talk pages make you two look like tendentious dicks") are notable since he was the one who removed quotation marks from a quotation with this history note: "03:22, 5 December 2010 Blaxthos (talk | contribs) (65,846 bytes) (Undid revision 400572385 by Badmintonhist (talk) putting "quotes" around something in this context is "challenging" it. no need, since description is accepted in reliable sources)". --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling (talk) 03:08, 10 December 2010 (UTC)

You do not understand the difference between a personal attack (example "you are stupid") with the statement that I believe you are here in bad faith, servicing your personal political beliefs and agenda, so again, stop the argumentum victima. I doubt there is anyone here who believes you're just here trying to improve articles by following policy in good faith, and stating such isn't attacking you. //Blaxthos ( t / c ) 03:15, 10 December 2010 (UTC)

Oh I'd say the REAL bad faith is on the part of the "editors" who either contributed to plagiarizing (the subject of the article, no less) or who gave it a wink and a nod. Any confessions? Badmintonhist (talk) 03:22, 10 December 2010 (UTC) P.S.Were those people "trying to improve the article by following policy in good faith"?

Tom has now edit warred the BIAS tag by removing it. I am not going to add it back so I do not also edit war, but I suggest that the plagiarism be removed within a reasonable time to prevent my readding the tag in the future. This page is in fact biased until the plagiarism from the SPLC site and elsewhere is removed. Blaxthos, even both you and Tom admitted I made a strong case for plagiarism. Are you saying my reporting plagiarism is not "trying to improve articles by following policy in good faith"? --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling (talk) 03:24, 10 December 2010 (UTC)

And the North Shoreman also seems to be ignoring just whose words have been copied throughout much of the article. THE SUBJECT OF THE ARTICLE. Yeah, I'm sure that wouldn't lead to any bias in the way the article reads. But he is right on one thing. The debate about the lead really doesn't mean much now. Is there any way the entire article can be "closed down." Rewritten in bare bones form from scratch by small group of administrators and then opened to the public again? Badmintonhist (talk) 03:43, 10 December 2010 (UTC)

Adding a bias tag for plagiarism is not done. The issue is raised here, now it can be resolved. -- Kim van der Linde ^{at venus} 03:49, 10 December 2010 (UTC)

Okay, Kim, I'll take your word for it.

Badmintonhist, I don't know, but I am certain it could be rebuilt in people's sandboxes. Then you could invite people to review what's in the sandbox. Then, if all approve, you could change the article. Of course we could just remove the plagiarism. I have a concern that if we merely add quotation marks, the article is still an SPLC view of the SPLC. Removal of SPLC-plagiarized material might be the way to go in at least some cases. --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling (talk) 03:54, 10 December 2010 (UTC)

Well, if we are going to redo the article, and an article has to have a beginning, what say we get out of the habit of copying the SPLC's writing style by not copying it in the first sentence of the lead? Maybe that will establish a better foundation for the rest of the article. Badmintonhist (talk) 04:00, 10 December 2010 (UTC)

I see what you mean. Could you imagine Encyclopedia Brittanica or the World Book Encyclopedia copying SPLC's view of itself verbatim? --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling (talk) 04:05, 10 December 2010 (UTC)

I removed the copyvio material. If there are other paragraphs, please list them here and I will check them. -- Kim van der Linde ^{at venus} 04:06, 10 December 2010 (UTC)

Kim, thank you so much. What a pleasure it is to build an encyclopedia instead of being attacked. Really, thank you for helping out here. --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling (talk) 04:08, 10 December 2010 (UTC)

You are welcome.-- Kim van der Linde ^{at venus} 04:11, 10 December 2010 (UTC)

LAEC: the very first reply to your message was "and plagiarism are two different things. You make a good case for plagiarism. See Wikipedia:Plagiarism on how to address it properly". Why didnt' you just take that advice at the onset and save us all this drama? Westbender (talk) 04:13, 10 December 2010 (UTC)

I did not start the drama. Indeed I did not even restore the tag when it was quickly removed again. Notice how Kim got involved, took the issue seriously, and acted upon it politely and even professionally. Please consider modeling your comments after hers. --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling (talk) 04:21, 10 December 2010 (UTC)

Well, I disagree with you a bit. Adding the BIAS tag was creating drama, because the tag was a complete mismatch with the purpose of the tag. But more importantly, misuse of tags easily results in not taken serious by others, especially when the editor is a regular WP editor who knows the game, because it suggest that you are more interested in adding the BIAS tag to the article than that you are genuinely interested in improving it. -- Kim van der Linde ^{at venus} 04:38, 10 December 2010 (UTC)

(ec) And please spare us the patronizing pokes like "consider modeling your comments after hers" because, even if you didn't mean it to sound that way, it comes off as arrogant and dismissive. I think you've been here long enough to know it is precisely this type of discourse that sets many regular editors on the defensive, or worse (thus making true collaboration more difficult). For what it's worth, I reluctantly considered supporting a couple of your earlier points until I saw Badmintonhist encouraging you to "enjoy the battle" [20] and not take Wikipedia seriously, it seems. -PrBeacon (talk) 05:44, 10 December 2010 (UTC)

Okay, I see your point, but I am sure you see mine, namely, a page containing substantial amounts of plagiarism where the material plagiarized is the official web site of the page is biased as a matter of fact. In addition, I clearly explained exactly why the BIAS tag was being added. No drama was involved. The drama started when, for example, one guy actually doing the copyvio/plagiarizing began his usual personal attacks.

Now Kim, Westbender addresses almost all his comments to me or my edits and has harassed me so much an admin, for example, had to remove material Westbender wrote about me. Please take his statements with a large grain of salt. Again, assuming good faith, it is 100% reasonable to believe a page is biased where it contains large portions of material plagiarized from the subject's own official site. I added the bias tag because the page is biased as a result of the plagiarism. Please cut me slack and do not assume I was causing drama. --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling (talk) 05:12, 10 December 2010 (UTC)

LAEC, as I indicated several days ago, focus on the content, and leave the editors out of it. It is going to make your life a LOT easier if you do that. Plagiarism by itself does not indicate whether it is biased or not. You can use sources pro and contra to plagarize. In this case, I am pretty sure we can find third party sources for the plagiarized sections, and write it in a way it is perfectly encyclopedic without bias. Bias is a whole different puppy, and basically states that the article does not reflect the verifiable reality. -- Kim van der Linde ^{at venus} 05:23, 10 December 2010 (UTC)

Careful, Legit. Is that some sort of weapon that Kim is brandishing [[21]]? Badmintonhist (talk) 05:09, 10 December 2010 (UTC)

LOL. Yes, I think the use of swords is severely underrated. ;-) -- Kim van der Linde ^{at venus} 05:23, 10 December 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, if you underrate it you might get severed.

More copyvio

Wikipedia:

On April 20, 2007 a civil jury in Linden, Texas, [...] awarded [...] $9 million in damages to Billy Ray Johnson, a mentally disabled black man, who was beaten and dumped along a desolate road by four white men in September 2003. The lawsuit was brought on Johnson's behalf by the SPLC.[57] Four white males took Johnson to a party where he was knocked unconscious then dropped on his head, referred to as a nigger, and left in a ditch bleeding.[58] Due to the event, "Johnson, 46, who suffered serious, permanent brain injuries from the attack, will require care for the rest of his life."[59] At a criminal trial the four men received sentences of 30 to 60 days in county jail.[60] The jury hoped that the verdict would improve race relations in the community stemming from a United States Department of Education investigation and other controversial verdicts. During the trial one of the defendants, Cory Hicks, referred to Johnson as "it."

SPLC:

A civil jury in Linden, Texas, today awarded approximately $9 million in damages to Billy Ray Johnson, a mentally disabled black man who was taunted, knocked unconscious and dumped along a desolate road by four white men in September 2003.

The Center brought suit on his behalf in 2005 after the men responsible for the crime received only light jail sentences — 30 days for three of them and 60 days for one.

.... Johnson, 46, who suffered serious, permanent brain injuries from the attack, will require care for the rest of his life.

--LegitimateAndEvenCompelling (talk) 05:02, 10 December 2010 (UTC)

Fixed and strengthened with additional references. -- Kim van der Linde ^{at venus} 05:41, 10 December 2010 (UTC)

Do we really need a separate thread for every one of these? It seems excessive and possibly disruptive, given the history of bias charges etc. -PrBeacon (talk) 20:43, 10 December 2010 (UTC)

Still more copyvio

Still more copyvio, in bold, and again an entire subsection.

Here:

Bearing guns and dressed in paramilitary uniforms, members of the Carolina Knights of the Ku Klux Klan (a.k.a. Confederate Knights of the Ku Klux Klan) terrorized a black prison guard, his family and others in 1982. In 1984, Bobby Person, the prison guard, became the lead plaintiff in an SPLC lawsuit, Person v. Carolina Knights of the Ku Klux Klan, in the U.S. District Court for the Eastern District of North Carolina. During the litigation, Klansmen continued harassing and threatening the plaintiffs, and the court issued an order prohibiting any person from interfering with other persons inside the federal courthouse. In January 1985, the Court issued a consent order that prohibited Glenn Miller, the group's Grand Dragon, and members of the group from training and operating a paramilitary organization; marching or parading in black neighborhoods; and harassing, intimidating, threatening or harming any black or white person who associates with black persons. The plaintiff's claims for damages were dismissed and the Consent Decree was made final in September 1985. After changing the group's name to the White Patriot Party, Miller resumed paramilitary operations and Klan business as usual. Less than a year later, Miller and others were found guilty of criminal contempt for violating the consent order. Miller was sentenced to 6 months in prison, six months suspended sentence and 3 years probation during which he could not associate with any members of the White Patriot Party or other racist groups. The contempt verdict was upheld by the Fourth Circuit U.S. Court of Appeals in 1988. Miller went underground, declared war on Jews and the federal government and was again arrested and served three years in federal prison on a weapons charge.

SPLC:

Bearing guns and dressed in paramilitary uniforms, members of the Carolina Knights of the Ku Klux Klan (a.k.a. Confederate Knights of the Ku Klux Klan) terrorized a black prison guard and his family in 1982. They pointed guns and shouted racial slogans at a white woman who invited black friends to her home. A black woman was nearly run off the road. A man on his way to work was harassed on a dead-end road.

One African American man quit his job and left the state, but Bobby Person, the black prison guard, became the lead plaintiff in the Center's lawsuit against the Klan. Person's harassment began after he complained that whites were unfairly being promoted over him at his job.

During the litigation, the Klansmen continued harassing and threatening the plaintiffs, resulting in the court issuing an order prohibiting any person from blocking hallways and doorways or otherwise interfering with other persons inside the federal courthouse.

On January 18, 1985, the Court issued a consent order that prohibited Glenn Miller, the group's Grand Dragon, and members of the group from training and operating a paramilitary organization; marching or parading in black neighborhoods; and harassing, intimidating, threatening or harming any black person or white person who associates with black persons. The plaintiff's claims for damages were dismissed and the Consent Decree was made final in September.

Less than a year later, however, Miller and others were found guilty of criminal contempt for violating the consent order and North Carolina state law. Having changed the group's name to the White Patriot Party, Miller resumed paramilitary operations and Klan business as usual. He was sentenced to 6 months in prison, six months suspended sentence and 3 years probation during which he could not associate with any members of the White Patriot Party or other racist groups.

Refusing to accept the court-ordered exile from the white supremacist movement, Miller went underground, declared war on Jews and the federal government and was again arrested and served three years in federal prison on a weapons charge.

This is the third instance of this pattern of copyvio, and it appears this is the second serious incident. It's no wonder this page reads like an advertisement for the SPLC. It has now been proven beyond the shadow of a doubt to have been directly copied from the SPLC web presence. If bias is the wrong word, there must be another word for what happens when Wikipedia is essentially hosting SPLC copy.

I rarely see plagiarism on Wikipedia. This SPLC page is filled with it. It's remarkable. --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling (talk) 06:39, 10 December 2010 (UTC)

WP is fraught with plagiarism, and it isn't common for people to cut/paste from a source, and then make minor tweaks to try to avoid the copryight violation. Why don't you edit the text to resolve the issue? Westbender (talk) 06:48, 10 December 2010 (UTC)

I disagree with what you just said. Be that as it may, Kim is doing an excellent job responding to what I'm uncovering. I am happy to let her continue. --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling (talk) 06:52, 10 December 2010 (UTC)

You disagree that plagiarism is widespread on Wikipedia? Perhaps you should check out WP:CP and meet the good folks at WP:CCP. Westbender (talk) 07:20, 10 December 2010 (UTC)

I asked an expert about this, and it appears Westbender is somewhat correct about this. It is surprising to me, but good call, Westbender. --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling (talk) 11:49, 10 December 2010 (UTC)

Let me reiterate: It isn't just that there is lots of plagiarism in the article, it's that lots of plagiarism of the subject's publications. In effect, editors were pretty much allowing the SPLC to write the article about itself. Badmintonhist (talk) 07:51, 10 December 2010 (UTC)

Westbender is correct. The plagiarism is fixable by quoting, paraphrasing, or dropping, and it is not indicative of bias. Dylan Flaherty 08:01, 10 December 2010 (UTC)

Then you still have the problem of numerous subsections that that are sourced entirely by SPCL publications WP:PRIMARY. However, I will say that this whole phenomenon is probably more indicative of bias and complacency on the part of editors than bias in the copy itself, though there is plenty of that too. Badmintonhist (talk) 08:14, 10 December 2010 (UTC)

Wow. You need to re-read WP:AGF until it begins to penetrate. Dylan Flaherty 16:54, 10 December 2010 (UTC)

Did you remind yourself to reread that when addressing me, Dylan? I believe that you've been editing on this page longer than I have. About as clumsy with a computer as it gets, I nonetheless needed about 15 seconds to click a footnote and discover the (primary) source's words, which popped right up on the screen, were basically identical to those in the article. Lucky strike? I get the impression the amount of effort that some editors here devote to defending the integrity of the article is in roughly inverse proportion to the amount of effort they devote to ensuring its integrity. Badmintonhist (talk) 17:55, 10 December 2010 (UTC)

And after you finish reading WP:AGF, read the rest of this talk page, where it's been explained repeatedly that COPYVIO is not BIAS. Enjoy! Dylan Flaherty 18:10, 10 December 2010 (UTC)

LEAC, stop the BIAS charges. Plagiarism NEVER is bias by itself, regardless of how much there is. Bias is when certain aspects of the story are left out. But at that moment, we are talking about biased usage of the available reliable sources. The same source can be used to do that without plagiarism, and I could rewrite the above story without any new reference and it would not be plagiarism anymore, but still based on the same sources. I do agree that some of the stories coul;d use a few third party sources, but considering that these are finished litigated court cases, they are probably quite realistic to what you will find in other reliable sources. The ONLY way to show that is to show other reliable sources stating a different story. You haven't done that. So, because you keep bringing up the bias charges without proof, why are you here at this article? Are you basically against the SPLC? -- Kim van der Linde ^{at venus} 17:01, 10 December 2010 (UTC)

I do not know what you are referring to. You explained it to me recently and I understood it, even struck out some of my past comments. Besides, I just added below excellent advice from Moodriddengirl. So I've gotten off my bias horse a while back. --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling (talk) 17:04, 10 December 2010 (UTC)

LEAC, you wrote: "If bias is the wrong word, there must be another word for what happens when Wikipedia is essentially hosting SPLC copy.", which is a indirect way is saying there is bias. I give you that you didn't way it directly and that I might have responded a bit strong.-- Kim van der Linde ^{at venus} 18:27, 10 December 2010 (UTC)

Ah c'mon Kim. You're too intelligent to fully embrace what you are saying. True, plagiarism in the abstract doesn't necessarily mean bias, but you seem to forget that the plagiarism wasn't from, say, court records, it was from THE SUBJECT OF THE ARTICLE WP:PRIMARY. Thus it wasn't simply "plagiarism . . . by itself." Basically editors were allowing the SPLC to fashion the article for them. The accounts of the cases weren't simply dry records, they were designed to dramatize the efforts of the SPLC and to enhance its reputation. Badmintonhist (talk) 17:34, 10 December 2010 (UTC)

Badmintonhist, you are in the right direction. Where I think you go wrong is that it is crucial to adequately keep two separate things separate: Plagiarism versus primary sources. I have not addressed your primary sources claim at all, although I suspect that they are easily addressed in this case and actually did not introduce any substantial bias. As for the plagiarism, I just edited this section and removed the plagiarism but not the primary source issue, showing that the two are separate issues. Yes, you can charge me with WP:POINT although this was not disruptive but took care of a specific violation. I merely did not finish the second part as well in order to show you this distinction. if you still think the section is dramatized, I think you can show that easily by digging up some sources. Because that is what it takes to show bias. -- Kim van der Linde ^{at venus} 18:30, 10 December 2010 (UTC)

You can keep typing WP:PRIMARY but it has limited application to the issues being discussed. While the SPLC website is a primary source for some topics (i.e. its mission statement), for most issues used in the article it is serving as a secondary source describing third party actions. Take the material copied from the SPLC website at the top of this section. All of the material describes events and actors unrelated to the SPLC (i.e. the court's decision, the KKK's activities, Millers declaration of war on Jews). SPLC is a watchdog group -- nobody disputes that. Watchdog groups investigate and report on third party groups -- just like a newspaper does. Reports by the SPLC discussing its findings on the KKK are not primary documents, but secondary documents relying on primary sources. From your favorite quideline, "Whether material counts as a primary or secondary source is not fixed. A book by a military historian about the Second World War might be a secondary source of material about the war, but if he includes details of his own war experiences, it would be a primary source of material about those issues. Tom (North Shoreman) (talk) 18:17, 10 December 2010 (UTC)

And the SPLC is a reliable source with regard to such things as Klan activity. Dylan Flaherty 18:33, 10 December 2010 (UTC)

Astonishing, really. The accounts of these cases DO involve SPLC actions BECAUSE THEY ARE CASES IN WHICH THE SPLC HAS FACILITATED LEGAL ACTION AGAINST ONE OF THE PARTIES INVOLVED. IT IS FRIENDLY TO ONE SIDE IN THE CASE AND UNFRIENDLY TO THE OTHER. As a matter of common sense would we want to take, say, the account of either Operation Rescue or of NARAL as the exclusive factual source for a case involving an anti-abortion protest outside of an abortion clinic in which each are aiding one side or the other? Badmintonhist (talk) 19:10, 10 December 2010 (UTC)

Non-responsive. The issue is not FRIENDLY or UNFRIENDLY but PRIMARY or SECONDARY and RELIABLE or NON-RELIABLE. The SPLC has been held as reliable both here and throughout wikipedia -- something never achieved by Operation Rescue or NARAL. As far as when a source is primary and when it is secondary, this is very clear in this case. Tom (North Shoreman) (talk) 19:23, 10 December 2010 (UTC)

Since you don't even object to the SPLC's mission statement being quoted as fact, North Shoreman, then it would seem that you think that a Wikipedia article sourced entirely by the SPLC would be, if not desirable, at least perfectly acceptable. If so, I guess I rest my case. Badmintonhist (talk) 19:41, 10 December 2010 (UTC)

Still non-responsive. As far as the mission statement, I made a proposal to change it, but no consensus has been reached to do so. Too many distractions have been raised by you and your buddy both in that discussion and elsewhere. Tom (North Shoreman) (talk) 19:47, 10 December 2010 (UTC)

@Badmintonhist: So now you're calling her a liar?! Unbelievable. Seems like you and LAEC would rather act like self-appointed morality police and scold others for the copyvio rather than improve the article yourselves. -PrBeacon (talk) 18:06, 10 December 2010 (UTC)

Apparently, Kim wasn't offended by my comments, Sir Galahad. As for working to improve the article, although you've posted numerous testy comments on the talk page here your efforts on the article page don't seem as prolific. My eyes aren't that good so forgive me if I'm wrong, but I only noticed ONE edit, a deletion, to your credit there. Badmintonhist (talk) 19:29, 10 December 2010 (UTC)

Just because she chose to take the high road doesn't mean your comment is excused. And no I haven't edited the article since I'm not as familiar with it or the subject as others. Do you even realize that your sarcasm at this point is not funny but rather smug and dismissive? Your attempts at humor are almost as bad as your skewed sense of propriety. You can't claim to be here in good faith while attacking others who've been here far longer than you and had nothing to do with the copyvio problems. -PrBeacon (talk) 20:12, 10 December 2010 (UTC)

Please, PrBeacon, please at least be accurate. Significant changes are being made to this article as a direct result of the actions of those you just maligned, and it has to do with Wiki rules, not morality. Please, let's be civil. We are improving the article. Kim is helping. Westbender is helping too. Tom is adding good comments. Please join us. --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling (talk) 18:25, 10 December 2010 (UTC)

'Maligned'? Calling out another editor for his poor behavior is not a personal attack. Stop playing the victim card for yourself or others, you can't keep lecturing us on being civil when you don't show the same respect. Anyone can count the many times have you called this page an "advertisement for the SPLC" -- a veiled insult to many of the editors who've worked on it in the past. Neither you nor Badmin knew about the copyvios at first, either, and probably only because you went looking for trouble. -PrBeacon (talk) 20:12, 10 December 2010 (UTC)

LEAC, I agree, the article has been improved. I just have one suggestion, you can fix the copyvio's yourself in the same way as I did it. -- Kim van der Linde ^{at venus} 18:32, 10 December 2010 (UTC)

Yes, Kim, I can do that. I had not until now just to avoid any problems. I think you and perhaps others have got the picture now that I only seek to apply Wiki rules to improve this article. And, now with your blessing, I'll go ahead and make some changes accordingly. Again, thanks, and it's been a pleasure working with you. --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling (talk) 18:40, 10 December 2010 (UTC)

So, I rewrote the section so the COPYVIO is removed, but the same sources are still used. Did removal of the copyvio change the content, no, it did not. -- Kim van der Linde ^{at venus} 18:30, 10 December 2010 (UTC)

Jeez, Kim, your edit blocked mine at he White Patriot subsection and for some reason the mouse isn't letting me copy and paste. I'll check what you've got there in a while. Badmintonhist (talk) 18:52, 10 December 2010 (UTC)

---

I started taking out some of the copyvio sections, but stopped so people could comment here. I could move them to talk if you like instead, or maybe there are other suggestions. Should take them out till they are re-written. BE——Critical_{__Talk} 00:01, 11 December 2010 (UTC)

Ahum, nice that you took out a copyvio section about the White Patriot Party here. Unfortunately, it was copy edited and no longer a copyvio. Please explain your action. -- Kim van der Linde ^{at venus} 00:12, 11 December 2010 (UTC)

]

Excellent advice on handling plagiarism/copyvio that is so prevalent here

I just got excellent advice on handling the WP:PLAGIARISM and/or WP:COPYVIO issues on this page from Moonriddengirl (talk section "Q"). Allow me to reprint the advice here, and hat tip to Westbender for tipping me off to this, hat tip to KimvdLinde for handling the situation in apparent general alignment with this advice, and hat tip to Badmintonhist for seeing this issue in the first place:

An editor told me, "You disagree that plagiarism is widespread on Wikipedia? Perhaps you should check out WP:CP and meet the good folks at WP:CCP." I doubt that plagiarism is widespread on Wikipedia. Who is correct? Thanks. --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling (talk) 07:48, 10 December 2010 (UTC)

I'd have to say honestly and accurately that it depends on your definition of widespread. :) The real place to look here is Wikipedia:Contributor copyright investigations, where we have quite possibly hundreds of thousands of articles waiting review contributed to by people who have persisted in violating our copyright policy (usually in a manner that also constitutes plagiarism). (Not to mention the ones already archived.) At WP:CP, I routinely see this, and WP:SCV usually gets a couple of dozen additional articles a day. Plagiarism is by no means rare on Wikipedia, but I can't begin to guess the percentage of articles that contain it. If somebody told me that a random sample found 10% of our articles contained substantial plagiarism, I'd believe it. It meets my definition of "widespread." But this is what I look at every day, and it's possible that my perceptions are skewed. I like to think that the situation is improving. I certainly see a lot more people paying attention to the issue than I used to. :D --Moonriddengirl ^(talk) 11:38, 10 December 2010 (UTC)

Very interesting, and surprising, to me. Thanks. --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling (talk) 11:44, 10 December 2010 (UTC)

Let me ask this. Having found Southern Poverty Law Center is loaded with unattributed direct quotes from the group's official web site that make the page look like an advertisement, like as in several entire sections are plagiarized from splcenter.org, should I be reporting that anywhere? I should think that I should not be the only one reviewing for plagiarism, especially since some editors who actively perform the plagiarism claim I'm only doing it to cause trouble. --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling (talk) 12:01, 10 December 2010 (UTC)

Oh, you're not the only one reviewing for it; some of us review for it practically full time. :) And we are often accused of trying to cause trouble. But just to clear up terms here: plagiarism is a secondary consideration. It's easily addressed by attributing. The first and most important question is whether the content meets our copyright policy. Essentially, we can only copy content from other websites or publications if they are verifiably public domain or compatibly licensed. If they are not, and if permission is not confirmed through WP:OTRS, content cannot be copied except in brief, clearly marked quotations (as per WP:NFC). If the content doesn't conform to this, it is a violation of our copyright policy, even if it was probably placed by somebody connected with the company. I'm not able to do much reading at the moment (migraine), so I'm not comparing the article to its sources, but the handling of it depends on how extensive it is. If there are a few unattributed quotes, they can be dealt with through attribution. If there are extensive quotes, they need to be cut down. Extensive quotes are forbidden by policy. (Basically, we can't take too much from a single source.) If whole sections are copied from the website, those sections should be removed for rewriting or blanked with {{subst:copyvio}} to give other contributors notice and time that the content must be dealt with. At the very least, if you find content that violates our copyright policy, you might explain your concerns at Wikipedia talk:Copyright problems. That will bring it up so others can take a look. There's kind of a handy overview at Wikipedia:Cv101. --Moonriddengirl ^(talk) 13:44, 10 December 2010 (UTC)

Thanks. I hope this helps everyone. --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling (talk) 16:50, 10 December 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, good advice. I found a whole article On Jat history (1669–1858) that I could put subst:copyvio on (since deleted). Wikipedia is really full of copyvio. BE——Critical_{__Talk} 20:52, 10 December 2010 (UTC)

Accusations made that editors active here are adding copyvio

Do accusations against the editors participating here help everyone? The largest bit of copyvio reverted today seems to be [22], added by someone else almost 2 years ago - [23]. The bit about the 'mentally disabled black man" was added in 2007 [24], again by someone not involved today. "Bearing guns and dressed" added Feb 2009 [25] by the editor who added the first bit above, again not involved today.

So, what is the basis for " some editors who actively perform the plagiarism claim I'm only doing it to cause trouble"? Dougweller (talk) 19:49, 10 December 2010 (UTC)

Doug, this was an example of LAEC making less than helpful comments. It happens, and it's not a good thing, but let's move on. I'm told that giving attention to those who seek it is akin to feeding trolls. Dylan Flaherty 20:00, 10 December 2010 (UTC)

Dougweller, I added that info to Moonriddengirl's Talk. Look there. --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling (talk) 20:05, 10 December 2010 (UTC)

Actually you just repeated an earlier accusation against Blaxthos [26]. I think Dougweller's question is appropriate and deserves a proper answer, not just a questionably framed incident of removing quote marks. Badmintonhist also casts such aspersions ([27] et al) so he should answer the question, as well. Otherwise it's time to collect diffs and ask for outside help. -PrBeacon (talk) 20:36, 10 December 2010 (UTC)

(edit conflict):I did. Anyone reading the exchange above would, I think, assume that you were referring tothe large chunks of copyvio that have been reverted, some of them in your edits above. Now you say 'some editors' meant just one, Blaxthos, and his comma reversion. If that's all you've got, your comments clearly aren't warranted and you need to strike them. Dougweller (talk) 20:59, 10 December 2010 (UTC)

He removed quotation marks from quotations, not commas. --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling (talk) 01:05, 11 December 2010 (UTC)

What do you say we do as Kim suggested in the section below and just stick to discussing improving SPLC? --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling (talk) 01:06, 11 December 2010 (UTC)

I'm all for that, but your behavior and Badmintonhist's have been out of line. Redacting those statements would go a long way towards restoring some of your lost credibility. Dylan Flaherty 03:47, 11 December 2010 (UTC)

I'm sorry you feel that way. I have not been out of line here, as is evidenced by the positive changes to the page itself and a number of other things, including being asked to make the copyvio revisions I used to let others make. That shows I have gained credibility, but I thank you for your concern. --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling (talk) 04:02, 11 December 2010 (UTC)

And if Blaxthos removed quotation marks from a quotation in the manner and under the circumstances he did, that is his problem, not mine. He made that edit, not me. --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling (talk) 04:05, 11 December 2010 (UTC)

See, it's that sort of denial and finger-pointing that only strengthens the case against you. Better by far to accept the errors you've made and work to get past them. Again, I speak from personal experience.

I'm going to move on and focus on article contents. I suggest that you do the same. Dylan Flaherty 04:06, 11 December 2010 (UTC)

Yeah! --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling (talk) 04:30, 11 December 2010 (UTC)

Request to all involved

This page is rapidly degrading into a blame fest left and right, and it is not helpful with regard of improving this page. For that reason, I asked everybody to do the two following things:

1. This talk page is to discuss the content of the SPLC page. And only that.
2. Problems with other editors should be addressed on either their personal talk pages or at the noticeboards.

Thank you. -- Kim van der Linde ^{at venus} 20:51, 10 December 2010 (UTC) PS. This includes reacting to this post. -- Kim van der Linde ^{at venus} 20:51, 10 December 2010 (UTC)ot

Thanks KimvdLinde, that was needed. BE——Critical_{__Talk} 20:53, 10 December 2010 (UTC)

(edit conflict)::I take your point, but I'm adding the edit I've been trying to add for a while anyway as I started that discussion, and I would like to make it clear that these accusations of copyvio against the editors editing in the last few days are inaccurate. Dougweller (talk) 20:59, 10 December 2010 (UTC)

I agree the battleground behavior needs to stop. I've replied further at Kim's talkpage. -PrBeacon (talk) 05:25, 11 December 2010 (UTC)

I agree also. I think that it is definitely a benefit that the copyvio has been found. I used the Earwig yesterday but it found nothing, although I see more was found today. I do quite a bit of looking for copyvio, and I can assure everyone that there is a lot of it in articles. Dougweller (talk) 06:38, 11 December 2010 (UTC)

POV Change to White Patriot Party

KimvdLinde rewrote this section to eliminate the plagiarism. Badmintonhist rewrote it and changed the word "terrorized" to "harassed and threatened". No explanation was offered and "terrorized" is the word used in the source. "Terrorized" and "harassed and threatened" are not totally synonymous and the former is certainly stronger than the latter. In light of everthing that has gone on recently and all the charges made regarding POV, it is important that controversial changes be discussed here first.

If Badmintonhist has actual sources that suggest that "terrorized" is too strong a word, then he should produce them. Otherwise, it seems that this is nothing more than a continuation of the attacks made on the SPLC as a reliable secondary source. Tom (North Shoreman) (talk) 12:47, 11 December 2010 (UTC)

I'm fine with "terrorized"; that's what our source says. It's one thing to rewrite so as to avoid a copyright violation, another to bowdlerize. Dylan Flaherty 14:43, 11 December 2010 (UTC)

To me it's no big deal either way. Kim actually agreed with my change. The article used "terrorized" once. Later it says "continued to harass and threaten." Apparently, no criminal charges were filed in the original "terrorization" and no one was physically injured. "Terror" is a loaded term, especially since 9-11. I would say that changing one word, "terrorized," to "harassed and threatened" hardly constitutes an "attack" on on the source that used the the word "terrorized." Badmintonhist (talk) 16:31, 11 December 2010 (UTC)

The long history of the KKK and associated groups is that they use violence in order to intimidate their target group -- the potential for violence is always there. The always looming threat of violence is a basic part of terrorism and the SPLC's description of the KKK as terrorist is hardly unique.

Your edit summary contained the following, "If you disagree with changing the initial "terrorized" to "harassed and threatened" please take to talk first." That's not the way it works -- see Wikipedia:BOLD, revert, discuss cycle for a better way to proceed.Tom (North Shoreman) (talk) 16:57, 11 December 2010 (UTC)

As I said, the wording change is no big deal to me. There have been hundreds of KKK's. In the early 1920's it was huge. By the 1980's any podunk group of four or five bullies might have called itself the KKK. "Terrorize" is one of those words that is used in very differing ways (ex. My three-year-old is terrorizing the household). To me, "harassed and threatened" is more precise, less flamboyant, and thus more encyclopedic. Badmintonhist (talk) 17:35, 11 December 2010 (UTC)

I think there is no mistaking the context of "terrorize" when it is used in conjunction with the KKK. When an organization engages in terrorism, it is not encyclopedic to refuse to say so. Tom (North Shoreman) (talk) 18:01, 11 December 2010 (UTC)

If what Badmintonhist says is true, I'd have to agree with him. --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling (talk) 16:33, 11 December 2010 (UTC)

The reason I agreed with changing the wording from terrorized to harassed and threatened is because the only sources currently used for the section are from the SPLC, which has a stake in the case. In the original complaint, the word terrorize is not used. As such, I think using the wording of the original complaint is best, which is intimidated and threatened and words like that. (the case files are linked from the SPLC link). -- Kim van der Linde ^{at venus} 17:27, 11 December 2010 (UTC)

The original complaint is a Primary Source (see all the discusiion of that above) that served a specific legal purpose. It is Original Research for editors to question the reliabilty of secondary sources based on their own interpretation of primary sources. The original complaint also says that the "Plaintiffs seek declaratory and injunctive relief, as well as compensatory and punitive damages, for a series of intimidating and violent acts committed against them... ". This sounds more like terrorism than simple harassment. Tom (North Shoreman) (talk) 18:01, 11 December 2010 (UTC)

Humm, no. The article is about the SPLC, so that makes the SPLC interpretation the primary source and potentially biased as they had an explicit stake in the case. The court ruling is not a primary source, but a secondary, and it does not uses those words. But the problem can be resolved in a much better way, and that is to dig up some independent sources and see how they call it. -- Kim van der Linde ^{at venus} 18:47, 11 December 2010 (UTC)

While the SPLC website is a primary source for some topics (i.e. its mission statement), for most issues used in the article it is serving as a secondary source describing third party actions. SPLC is a watchdog group -- nobody disputes that. Watchdog groups investigate and report on third party groups -- just like a newspaper does. Reports by the SPLC discussing its findings on the White Patriot Party are not primary documents, but secondary documents relying on primary sources (i.e. court transcripts, witness statements, newspaper accounts, etc.). From Wikipedia:No original research, "Whether material counts as a primary or secondary source is not fixed. A book by a military historian about the Second World War might be a secondary source of material about the war, but if he includes details of his own war experiences, it would be a primary source of material about those issues.”

With respect to court rulings, you’re switching the subject. You originally referred to “the original complaint” (an advocacy document filed by the SPLC with the court) and have now changed to “the court ruling”. I can adjust. Court decisions are very clearly primary sources. They reflect the very first evidence of what a court has decided. This university website [[28]] defines primary sources and lists websites that provide them. Under legal documents it includes several sites that provide Supreme Court decisions -- if SCOTUS decisions are primary documents then so are District Court decisions.

I'm not sure what current stake you think the SPLC has in a 25 year old lawsuit. Of course, its reputation for honest and objective reporting is always subject to review by the public, but this case is no more important than any of the other cases it has intiated or numerous reports it has issued on hate groups and related subjects. Tom (North Shoreman) (talk) 21:19, 11 December 2010 (UTC)

Well, looks like we disagree here.-- Kim van der Linde ^{at venus} 21:45, 11 December 2010 (UTC)

Kim, people tend not to lie when they know it's easy to catch them in a lie. The lawsuits that the SPLC is writing about are public record, so they'd be demotivated from lying or even stretching the truth. Dylan Flaherty 21:57, 11 December 2010 (UTC)

Sure, and they are still the litigators in this case. And nothing ain't going to change that. -- Kim van der Linde ^{at venus} 23:58, 11 December 2010 (UTC)

Yes, and the court dismissed the plaintiffs' claim for compensatory and punitive damages. Terrorism usually isn't treated this lightly by federal courts.Badmintonhist (talk) 18:22, 11 December 2010 (UTC)

You're really getting into original research, aren't you? Bottom line, we have one reliable secondary source and it uses the word "terrorized". Your take on the signifcance of a court decision isn't all that relevant -- let's stick to discussing what the relevant sources say. Tom (North Shoreman) (talk) 18:30, 11 December 2010 (UTC)

Ah. Good find there, Kim. Thanks. Badmintonhist (talk) 17:39, 11 December 2010 (UTC)

Talk page archiving

This talk page is getting very long and starts to have issues with loading and navigation. I strongly recommend that the archiving time should be decreased from 60 days (means that next archiving starts in January). With my experience with th auto-archiving it looks like 2-3 weeks archive time (time since last timestamp) would make this talk page lighter. I was before interupted and therefore asking for consensus. Is it OK start to start archiving (begin with 3 weeks)? --Kslotte (talk) 13:24, 11 December 2010 (UTC)

Agree. --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling (talk) 15:38, 11 December 2010 (UTC)

3 weeks won't do much, 2 weeks is more suitable based on a more detailed investigation. --Kslotte (talk) 16:04, 11 December 2010 (UTC)

Agree. --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling (talk) 16:08, 11 December 2010 (UTC)

BE BOLD -- Kim van der Linde ^{at venus} 16:23, 11 December 2010 (UTC)

 Done Now auto-archiving time is set to 2 weeks. --Kslotte (talk) 16:45, 11 December 2010 (UTC)

Intelligence Report endorsement

PrBeacon has led me to see that the SPLC's publication, Intelligence Report is indeed listed as a "reliable source for information about hate groups and hate crimes" by the Illinois Association for Cultural Diversity. However, what do we know about the Illinois Association for Cultural Diversity other than the fact that its home is Western Illinois University? Why would the organization itself be a reliable source for information found in Wikipedia? Why would its opinions be notable, and even if they were notable why would we give them such weight? I can certainly see including the FBI's listing of the SPLC as a source for information about hate groups, but the Illinois Association for Cultural Diversity? Badmintonhist (talk) 17:20, 11 December 2010 (UTC)

You're trying to have it both ways. On one hand you argue, incorrectly, that the SPLC is not a reliable source and then you object when information is provided from other sources that support the SPLC position. The Illinois Association for Cultural Diversity seems to be firmly rooted in the academic community and would be expected to adhere to rigourous academic standards (see [29]). Do you have any information that questions the groups reliability? Tom (North Shoreman) (talk) 18:23, 11 December 2010 (UTC)

I questioned whether the SPLC should be used as a reliable source for its own activities not whether it was a reliable source for information on hate groups. The major question is what makes the Illinois group's opinion significant? The mere fact that it is attached to a college means little. We have no real knowledge whether or not this group "adheres to rigorous academic standards" and even if we did, clearly, in the academic world, and even more so the culture at large, the organization is very small potatoes. We don't use every organization attached to a college as a reliable source and even if we did we would still have the problem here of undue weight. Why should the opinion of some small academic organization that almost no one has heard of be used as a singular source to verify the SPLC's reliability as an authority on hate groups? By the way, is the FBI listing of the SPLC as a source on hate groups (which I know exists) listed in our article? Badmintonhist (talk) 19:31, 11 December 2010 (UTC)

Bad, there's nothing anywhere that suggests the SPLC accounts are anything but accurate. You're casting doubt where none can be found. This is POV-pushing and it's not going win any friends, much less influence people. Dylan Flaherty 19:45, 11 December 2010 (UTC)

I agree, anyone who wants to suggest the SPLC is not reliable should source that very carefully. -- Kim van der Linde ^{at venus} 20:22, 11 December 2010 (UTC)

Well, of course he's right to question sources and this does not seem to have anything one would call editorial oversight; who knows who put in that caption/description [30]. I think I remember seeing it described as reliable in one of the sources, so we could use that if we can find it. I think in a normal article one would question a source like that, which is a listing by an organization with none of the reliability checks of a good newspaper. That caption could have been written by a student set to develop a list. Let's just improve the sourcing or phrasing and forget about whether it's POV pushing, because you can't POV push this way on a well-sourced and well-written article. It says it's "award winning," [31] which if someone can find what award it won should be a sufficient substitute for this source. BE——Critical_{__Talk} 21:57, 11 December 2010 (UTC)

Oh, and please let's stop saying that material should be considered right till proven wrong. It's the opposite in Wikipedia. We don't say something is reliable or whatever just because no one questions it, but rather because RS endorse it. If SPLC is reliable, and you want to call it that, get a RS to say so, don't say that someone who questions an assertion of its reliability has to have proof against it. It doesn't matter who you think is POV pushing here, this is just Wikipedia RS policy. I've seen enough valid points raised by Badmintonhist to know that whatever his POV or whatever POV pushing he's done other places, his points are often valid and dismissing him as a POV editor rather than addressing his points should be done with more care. BE——Critical_{__Talk} 22:10, 11 December 2010 (UTC)

Think this through: if we need a RS to show that SPLC is reliable, then we'd need yet another RS to show that our first source was reliable, and so on. This leads to infinite regress or circular reasoning. The SPLC is, on its own, reliable with regard to its own history. Let's leave it at that.

As for the requirement of doubt, the SPLC is fully aware that these lawsuits are matters of public record and it would be slammed with complaints if it contradicted those highly reliable sources. Therefore, the absence of anyone doing the slamming is itself evidence of reliability. Dylan Flaherty 22:17, 11 December 2010 (UTC)

No, Wikipedia defines RS. So we'd only need one. And yes, it's circular, because there's nothing outside the human system of knowledge endorsing various points within the system. BE——Critical_{__Talk} 22:26, 11 December 2010 (UTC)

We are way past needing to prove that the SPLC is a reliable source. That issue has been addressed over and over again on this article, other articles, and places such as Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard. This is more than a consensus of the editors of this article -- it is a community wide consensus.

As far as the Illinois Association for Cultural Diversity, I've provided the website and you really should review it, look at what other universities support it, look at the contributors to its publications, and review its activities before dismissing it with statements like "That caption could have been written by a student set to develop a list." It is the responsibility of the parties that introduce a source to make a case for its reliability. The website makes the prima facie case -- the burden is now on the institutes detractors to show otherwise. Tom (North Shoreman) (talk) 23:37, 11 December 2010 (UTC)

Ok, so are we agreed on the reliability of the SPLC in this matter? Dylan Flaherty 23:24, 11 December 2010 (UTC)

Yes. -- Kim van der Linde ^{at venus} 23:56, 11 December 2010 (UTC)

Great, I smell a consensus. Let's bury the dead and move on. Dylan Flaherty 00:01, 12 December 2010 (UTC)

I don't agree, as I think the caption is not a good enough source for an encyclopedia; however, I don't object. I would support any other editor who wished to seek more opinions on the RS noticeboard. If the caption were not merely a caption on a list, that would be different, for instance were it more of a central position paper. But not every caption on every list is a reliable source even if the source is generally reliable. BE——Critical_{__Talk} 00:31, 12 December 2010 (UTC)

However, I will reiterate that the Association for Cultural Diversity is at the low end as a reliable source, according to Wikipedia's standards "Articles should be based on reliable, third-party, published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy." The Association may consider SPLC reliable, but it has no known structure of fact checking. And the list is at the low end of that low end source. The sourcing on this article often sucks, for example the Neo-Confederate movement section which is sourced almost entirely to the SPLC itself. Please stop pretending that this article doesn't have major problems. It needs re-writing based on third party sources. I don't think it has many problems with NPOV, but how would we really know considering its sources? BE——Critical_{__Talk} 01:30, 12 December 2010 (UTC)

Why do I get the feeling that we're re-enacting a Monty Python film? (Jump a minute into http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=grbSQ6O6kbs and you'll get what I mean.)

Any academic source has a reputation for fact-checking; that's what peer review is all about. While there are perhaps more august institutions than good old Western Ill. U., there's no particular reason to think it lacks reliability just because it lacks fame.

I'm not denying that the article has sourcing issues, but that's a very, very different thing than having POV issues. Let's continue to rewrite it to avoid WP:COPYVIO and to add more third-party (or even second-party) sources. Dylan Flaherty 02:01, 12 December 2010 (UTC)

Are you seriously suggesting that list is peer-reviewed? Peer-review is what happens with peer reviewed scientific journals. And I didn't say it had POV issues, it probably doesn't but we don't really know till we get the sources right. BE——Critical_{__Talk} 02:53, 12 December 2010 (UTC)

I'm seriously suggesting that academic publishing (not just scientific) is based on peer review and anything posted as coming from the school is under editorial review of the institution as a whole and the department in specific. Agreed that we need to source better; I don't think anyone is doubting this. Dylan Flaherty 03:06, 12 December 2010 (UTC)

Funny video, yeah, that guy didn't have any third party sources claiming he was alive. BE——Critical_{__Talk} 03:01, 12 December 2010 (UTC)

I particularly like the part where the carter says "" and hits him on the head with the shovel... Dylan Flaherty 03:06, 12 December 2010 (UTC)

LOL, yeah. Or in this case changed a dubious tag to a deadlink tag and then delete the section for lack of sourcing by the next day. I think of peer review as something which 1) the reader knows for sure happened and 2) that it was sent out to be actually read and reviewed by other experts in the relevant field. I don't get that from the list. However, we agree the article needs better third party sourcing and that's what's important (: BE——Critical_{__Talk} 03:21, 12 December 2010 (UTC)

"I'm not dead." "That's what you claim but since it is WP:SPS, we can't include it in the article!" :) --Kevinkor2 (talk) 07:11, 12 December 2010 (UTC)

Not to mention the fact that it would be a WP:COI violation for someone to edit their own biography. Dylan Flaherty 07:15, 12 December 2010 (UTC)

Ouch. Ok, let's agree to agree and get sourcing. Dylan Flaherty 03:25, 12 December 2010 (UTC)

I return from Christmas shopping, dinner, and karaoke to find that my points have been misconstrued by some. They were not made to question the expertise of the SPLC on hate groups and hate crimes. They were made to question the use of a very obscure academic association, whose expertise on those topics has in no way been established, as a reliable source on hate activity. WHO CARES WHAT THE VIRTUALLY UNKNOWN ILLINOIS ASSOCIATION FOR CULTURAL DIVERSITY SAYS ABOUT THE SPLC'S INVESTIGATIVE REPORTS? Even were we to establish it was a reliable source on such activity their opinion as used here would constitute undue weight. Now, were we to do a Wikipedia article on this association (in the current absence of any) then using the SPLC as a reliable source on the association's hate activity bona fides would make sense. Here we have it ass-backwards. It's like using Badmintonhist to vouch for the effectiveness of Lin Dan's training methods or using the North Shoreman as an expert on a book about the Battle of Gettysburg by James M. McPherson. Hope this helps. Badmintonhist (talk) 04:53, 12 December 2010 (UTC)

What do people think of this? BE——Critical_{__Talk} 04:57, 12 December 2010 (UTC)

That's an excellent source. Not only does it directly state that SPLC's hate list is widely recognized as valid within both the legal and academic communities, but the source is a $100 academic hardcover, not some rag. Well done. Dylan Flaherty 05:17, 12 December 2010 (UTC)

[32] [33] [34] I'm not fully vetting these, just putting them here for review. BE——Critical_{__Talk} 05:07, 12 December 2010 (UTC)

1. States that it's reliable, comes from a textbook except it's put out by a niche religious/ethnic publisher and seems aimed at, uhm, younger students (the web site lists it as 12-adult). Not so great.
2. Calls it a prime source, from a trade paperback put out by an academic and scholarly publisher. Much better. This one's a keeper.
3. Lists it as detailed and reliable, from an $85 hardcover put out by an academic publisher whose weighty tomes I have on my own shelves. Definitely robust.

All told, we have three solid sources calling the SPLC's hate list broadly reliable in the academic, legal and law enforcement communities. So much for self-publishing... Dylan Flaherty 05:28, 12 December 2010 (UTC)

So Badmintonhist, what other problems do you see with the article? It would help to have a list that we can just run down and solve. BE——Critical_{__Talk} 05:41, 12 December 2010 (UTC)

content & source removed, restored

First of all, since Badmin opened the door for discussion, I want to voice an objection to the way the content dispute was initially handled. In his edit summary for the removal [35] Badmin said "Deleted information not found in source. Found no such "reliable source" designation." though it didn't take more than a browser-window search for the wording. And it seems that he didn't carefully read thearticle section where this appears, which already contains other possible sources for the claim as well as details and a link for the award BeCritical asks about. All this should have been considered before the line was even removed. So I restored it [36]. Now he's saying the source itself is either unreliable or its use is undue. I don't understand these various arguments against using the academic source, albeit a simple list, even though I didn't add the line or source under review. It's still hosted on the university website and there is no indication that this page is not endorsed by the school, nothing to support the conjectures floated above by Badmin and BeCritical, as others have said already. Policy-based objections to the academic source sound like misinterpretation. What specific RS or wiki-policy supports these claims against WIU? By the way it didn't take long to find this discussion from last year: WP:RS/N - Archive 27: Intelligence Report which answer some questions, too. -PrBeacon (talk) 05:58, 12 December 2010 (UTC)

Thanks to BeCritical for additional sources. Though I still think the WIU citation is sufficient in context, I'm not particularly attached to it. -PrBeacon (talk) 06:06, 12 December 2010 (UTC)

I agreed that WIU is sufficient, but in cases like this, overkill works best. Dylan Flaherty 07:14, 12 December 2010 (UTC)

Oh okay so that's what the awards are, two for articles and one for the project itself? And the objections were good, but the problem was solved above. Thanks for the links to old discussion. And those new sources can be used several places in the article, they are going to be helpful. BE——Critical_{__Talk} 06:10, 12 December 2010 (UTC)

Have I missed something already in the article or are you leaving out the fact that the FBI lists the SPLC as a source of information about hate crimes? Badmintonhist (talk) 07:32, 12 December 2010 (UTC)

Reference lost in the shuffling

This USAToday reference was lost somewhere among recent edits, could someone who's better than I at cite-coding please review this: LAEC removed what appeared to be a dead link [37] but from what I can tell it got shuffled around in an earlier rewrite: [38] (since it's used a couple of times). Thanks. -PrBeacon (talk) 06:15, 12 December 2010 (UTC)

Intelligence Report section

This section seems to give undue weight to criticism, while ignoring plenty of data which is much more complimentary as shown by the sources (see above) [39] [40] [41]. Should be updated/redone. BE——Critical_{__Talk} 06:18, 12 December 2010 (UTC)

On this matter, we agree. The scare-quotes around "watchgroup" (twice!) are a particularly undue touch. Essentially, this is a fringe view and it's not even saying anything particularly relevant. Group A has slightly different estimates than group B but concede's that B's estimates are reasonable. Boring. Dylan Flaherty 06:23, 12 December 2010 (UTC)

this entire bit about exaggerating stuff should be taken out or put in the financial section, IMHO BE——Critical_{__Talk} 20:52, 13 December 2010 (UTC)

Disagree. Both of the sources discuss the accuracy of the SPLC's research and belong there. I don't understand why you eliminated the positve information about the Intellgence Report in the first place. If I recollect properly, McVeigh says nothing in the entire article about fundraising and the section quoted from Dobratz is the sole mention of financing and applies to watch dog groups in general, not just the SPLC -- a fact that your edits removed. The financial section, as I've stated elsewhere, is already bloated. Tom (North Shoreman) (talk) 21:07, 13 December 2010 (UTC)

I definitely don't recall eliminating positive information about the intelligence report. I certainly put in a very very strong endorsement from the sources I recently found. And what I think needs to come out is the Betty A. Dobratz and Stephanie L. Shanks-Meile bit. BE——Critical_{__Talk} 21:13, 13 December 2010 (UTC)

Here is the McVeigh quote BEFORE you edited the section. The boldfaced content is the very positive info you cut from your edits and which I partially restored:

Such measurement bias, if it exists, would be more likely to show up in claims concerning membership or in descriptions of the movement's goals, rather than in a listing of organizations. The SPLC's lists of U.S. racist organizations are by far the most comprehensive available. Its outstanding reputation is well established, and the SPLC has been an excellent source of information for social scientists who study racist organizations.

I had added the McVeigh quote to counter the Dobratz quote. I have no feeling one way or the other about retaining the Dobratz quote, but McVeigh is an excellent source and all the information he provided should stay in the article. Tom (North Shoreman) (talk) 21:29, 13 December 2010 (UTC)

Oh, now I remember. I agree on keeping the source, but I put that information in the head, and what I think should be done is take out the whole back and forth bit about "the SPLC may determine what it focuses on in order to influence people to make contributions" and have the information you're talking about left in where I put it "The Intelligence Report is cited by scholars as reliable and as the most comprehensive source on right-wing extremism and hate groups." BE——Critical_{__Talk} 23:08, 13 December 2010 (UTC)

FBI and SPLC

Hi,

A comment or reference might have been lost in all the shuffling. <humor>zombies</humor>

As Badmintonhist asks,

By the way, is the FBI listing of the SPLC as a source on hate groups (which I know exists) listed in our article? Badmintonhist (talk) 19:31, 11 December 2010 (UTC)

I have looked on FBI's web site with this search query. I found a few possibilities but no definitive statement: <humor>no smoking gun</humor>

• Investigative Programs: SPLC helps with Civil Rights era cold cases:

  In response to this proposed legislation, the Civil Rights Unit of the FBI established the Cold Case Initiative. With assistance of the Southern Poverty Law Center, the National Urban League, the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People, and our local and state law enforcement partners, 100 potential cases were identified that matched the established criteria.

• Our Outreach Partners: SPLC is listed as an African-American Outreach partner. (Over thirty other organizations were also included: American-Arab Anti Discrimination Committee, Sikh American Legal Defense and Education Fund, and Anti-Defamation League)
• Hate Crimes: SPLC is listed along with five other links to resources

--Kevinkor2 (talk) 16:36, 12 December 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, that's what I meant, Kevin. I saw the Hate Crimes section of the FBI website. It doesn't use the term "reliable source" but that is Wikipedia's term of art. It would seem to me that the FBI information is vastly more important than a reading list statement from the obscure "Illinois Association for Cultural Diversity". Badmintonhist (talk) 16:53, 12 December 2010 (UTC)

Section title

While a legitimate problem was identified, the solution is not to elevate the status of David Horowitz by mentioning him in a section title, placing him on an equal footing with the major categories of SPLC activities. I believe it is better to leave the material in the section "Tracking of hate groups", but place it as a subsection. The Berlet article does include discussions of some hate groups so the material is not out of place here.

My sugestion is to make the title reflective of the general theme of the article by Berlet ("Into the Mainstream") and add an introductory paragraph that applies to the entire article. My suggestion:

Mainstreaming of hard right extremist language

Chip Berlet, writing for the SPLC in 2003, identified 17 "right-wing foundations and think tanks support[ing] efforts to make bigoted and discredited ideas respectable." Berlet said that while many of these groups, some of whom are labelled as hate groups by the SPLC, claim to be part of the political mainstream, they still rely on the use of "prejudice, fear, disdain, misinformation, trivialization, patronizing stereotypes, demonization and even scare-mongering conspiracy theories."

One of the groups listed is David Horowitz's Center for the Study of Popular Culture (now called David Horowitz Freedom Center). Berlet accused Horowit... [resume existing language at this point] Tom (North Shoreman) (talk) 20:46, 12 December 2010 (UTC)

Can you give a better description of the problem? BE——Critical_{__Talk} 20:53, 12 December 2010 (UTC)

Which problem? The problem with the previous organization or the problem with the first effort to solve it? Tom (North Shoreman) (talk) 20:57, 12 December 2010 (UTC)

Was Horowitz's group specifically labeled as a hate group or was it one of the 17 which were not listed as a hate group by the SPLC? Badmintonhist (talk) 21:47, 12 December 2010 (UTC)

No. Tom (North Shoreman) (talk) 21:53, 12 December 2010 (UTC)

No it wasn't listed as a hate group or no it wasn't one of the others? Badmintonhist (talk) 21:58, 12 December 2010 (UTC)

No it wasn't listed as a hate group. Tom (North Shoreman) (talk) 22:00, 12 December 2010 (UTC)

Then why would an editor put it back into the hate group category and back into the neo-Confederate subcategory neither of which fit? Badmintonhist (talk) 22:05, 12 December 2010 (UTC)

Well, that's one way the discussion can go. Along that line, why don't you explain why you want to give such prominent exposure in an article about the SPLC to a right wing extremist such as Horowitz? I suggest a better way to go is to discuss my alternative. If you don't want it under hate groups it would fit nicely under "Litigation and advocacy" as a subsection right after (or even as part of) "Criticism of right wing rhetoric". Tom (North Shoreman) (talk) 22:36, 12 December 2010 (UTC)

As you seem to be fond of saying, North Shoreman, you were not responsive to my question. I would say that as a temporary measure we should we should get rid of your last edit on the article and go back to mine. Referring to Horowitz as a "right wing extremist" doesn't exactly evince a willingness to set one's ideology aside and approach the article from a NPOV and perhaps explains why you seemed loathe to work with my change instead of reverting it. That being said the last part of your suggestion about locating the material seems okay. Your earlier suggested title for the material is definitely not okay. It's biased and conclusionary. Badmintonhist (talk) 23:15, 12 December 2010 (UTC)

I am simply following Wikipedia:BOLD, revert, discuss cycle -- is there some urgency that I am unaware of? My title is descriptive and accurately covers the thrust of the article by Berlet -- what you're really saying is that the SPLC is "biased and conclusionary". This has been the thrust of your editing since you made your initial appearance here.

I didn't like your initial title so I suggested another one. Since you don't like my suggestion, provide an alternative that doesn't have Horowitz's name in it. Tom (North Shoreman) (talk) 23:28, 12 December 2010 (UTC)

If You didn't like my initial title then you could have changed the title, not thrown the material back into a section and subsection where you should have known it didn't belong. Your anxiousness to put Horowitz back into the hate group category makes you "more royalist than the king" so to speak, since the SPLC itself didn't put him in that category. My bias in this article has been against lazy, complacent, POV editing. I put Horowitz's name in the edit because the name of his organization has recently been changed (with his name now in it) and the old name was rather unwieldly to put in the title anyway. Badmintonhist (talk) 23:47, 12 December 2010 (UTC)

Non-reponsive. To repeat myself, "I didn't like your initial title so I suggested another one. Since you don't like my suggestion, provide an alternative that doesn't have Horowitz's name in it." If you would like (it wasn't clear which of the alternatives in my last proposal was OK), feel free to move the material in question into the existing subsection "Criticism of right wing rhetoric" without adding or changing any section or subsection titles. Tom (North Shoreman) (talk) 00:16, 13 December 2010 (UTC)

I completed the transfer as I had proposed -- it was added to the section I suggested w/o any separate new title. I have highlighted what I proposed in case there was a misunderstanding. Badmintonhist did slightly change the title of the recipient subsection, but I don't have a problem with that.

Berlet was writing about 17 separate groups, not just one. If a new subsection is created, then its title should be applicable to all 17 groups, not just one. The text itself should also make this clearer than it currently does and the language I suggested above will accomplish that. Tom (North Shoreman) (talk) 01:04, 13 December 2010 (UTC)

That's a pleasant surprise. Perhaps we should now sing Kumbaya. Badmintonhist (talk) 01:10, 13 December 2010 (UTC)

Why is the episode with David Horowitz notable enough -weighty enough- to be included? BE——Critical_{__Talk} 05:52, 13 December 2010 (UTC)

It isn't. It is hardly encyclopedic to get into a back and forth between sides. Here you've got seventeen lines dedicated to a SMALL PART of ONE SPLC report and one individual's opinion of the report. Horowitz is not a stand alone reliable source so the text was manipuated in order to justify having his opinions inserted into the article. Tom (North Shoreman) (talk) 13:46, 13 December 2010 (UTC)

Fundraising section

I did a bunch of edits to the section, but they are for the most part copyediting and putting it in chronological order. I took out all but one quote which seemed appropriate, and put in a sentence to begin with which in conjunction with the second sentence seemed to sum up the whole section, both positions. BE——Critical_{__Talk} 22:53, 12 December 2010 (UTC)

Tolerance.org

BeCritical flattered me recently by suggesting that I make a list of problems with the article. I'm not ready to do that and I don't think that other editors would take too kindly to such a presumption, anyway. However, I do think the article is bloated. People are more likely to read a relatively concise article than an article as long as this one. I think it could be cut significantly in size without losing much of its meat. One place we could start is on the subsection Tolerance.org. It is about SPLC activities and seems to be sourced entirely by the SPLC, itself. Could we perhaps find a reliable third party source that concisely describes the program and base a much shortened section on that? Badmintonhist (talk) 01:38, 13 December 2010 (UTC)

It certainly feels like two or three of you are "on the warpath", so to speak, with regards to this article. It's biased, it reads like an ad, it has primary sources, it's plagiarism, it's bloated, it might be too long to read so we should helpfully trim it... I'm not sure what you're doing is actually productive, and even if the article does need some work I'm not sure any of you are honestly objective enough to be the ones to do it -- from where I sit, it looks like your tribe has been trying to take an axe to this article for the last several weeks. Maybe it's time to step back and let the landscape cool awhile. //Blaxthos ( t / c ) 02:18, 13 December 2010 (UTC)

Help out then. I just removed 3 paragraphs of specifics of the org that were simply not needed. What remains is SPLC's description of the site. That's fine, barring primary source problems, etc. It really reads and looks way better without losing anything of encyclopedic significance. I mean really. It won a Webby Award? The award winning aspects of the site from Webby Award is not really encyclopedic. --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling (talk) 02:29, 13 December 2010 (UTC)

Did you read what Blaxthos just said? Cool it with the contentious edits. This is not the time to be wp:bold and remove such a large portion [42] with no specific discussion of it here, and especially with an edit summary of "remove bloat/more SPLC advertisement - didn't check but it wouldn't surprise me if copyvio was present" (my emphasis). While I agree this section could be trimmed, thats alot different than simply removing it without proper justification. -PrBeacon (talk) 03:07, 13 December 2010 (UTC)

One reason to write a list would be to give people an idea of what you think needs to be done so they don't feel you are out to ax the article. BE——Critical_{__Talk} 04:20, 13 December 2010 (UTC)

Maybe I'll make a list after the holidays. For now I'll make the observation that any intelligent adult would make, bearing in mind that this is supposed to be an encyclopedia entry. It is waaay too worshipful, in tone and in content, as befits an article which largely was, and to a substantial extent still is, "self-written" by and about a organization which sees itself as righteous and heroic. The lead sentence still has the absurdly unencyclopedic formulation to the effect that "the center dedicates itself to seeking justice for the most vulnerable members of society." Not counting the articles that receive very limited attention, it may be the most biased lead sentence that I have seen in my three years of editing here.

The history section reads like a testimonial geared to juveniles. It's all about the the center's bravery in battles with obvious troglodyte types, many of them taking place two decades or so after the political starch had been taken of such groups, rendering them easy legal targets. Nothing in it about the criticism of the center from moderate, liberal, and lefty sources. That comes at the end, and for a naive reader who actually gets there, it might be disillusioning. Everything else has been so glowingly positive. How could the Washington Post possibly call it controversial? Why would any nice person accuse it of using scare tactics to raise money? How could it possibly be spending more on advertising than on legal services? Why would it be using its huge endowment to provide big salaries for the already well-off?

Look, I know the SPLC has done many fine things. I doubt that any editor here is sympathetic to its more obvious targets, certainly not the early ones. Cleaning up messes after the Klan and similar groups had already been weakened, gaining damages for its victims, helping to put some remnant leaders behind bars, monitoring upticks in Klan-like behavior, looking out for the safety of groups who tend to be scapegoated, all of those are fine things. It doesn't mean that our Wikipedia article about the SPLC should be a love letter. Aren't we a little too sophisticated for that? Badmintonhist (talk) 07:05, 13 December 2010 (UTC)

See, here's the problem... on your very first edit to this article, you attempted to change the introduction with the edit summary "My Goodness, who wrote this lead that I'm editing? The SPLC's press agent?". As it turns out, the introduction was derived and endorsed by a strong consensus of 12 editors after a long discussion, though you call it an "absurdly unencyclopedic formulation". Fuck that 12 editor consensus, eh? From where I stand, it looks a hell of a lot like we have at least two editors (Badmintonhist and LAEC) who have a less-than-friendly history with anything progressive (and a very friendly history with conservative causes) trying to gut this article. Making snarky comments like "any intelligent adult" would agree with you only belies your true disdain both this article and any dissenting editors. Again, this looks more like a witch hunt by right-wing editors than it does an honest attempt to improve the article via consensus. //Blaxthos ( t / c ) 12:49, 13 December 2010 (UTC)

I have to partially disagree. The problem is not that these two editors are conservative -- I'm pretty conservative myself -- but that their behavior is unreasonable. There's room for people who disagree to edit harmoniously, but they have to learn from the example of Bad and LAEC instead of repeating their errors. Dylan Flaherty 13:04, 13 December 2010 (UTC)

BeCritical -- As far as BAD being "out to ax the article," how can anyone conclude otherwise? With his very first edit he insulted the editors of the article and his latest effort, with phrases such as "any intelligent adult" and "geared to juveniles", only reinforces my belief that he is not interested in a collaborative effort. Some of us were making progress on the article lead, but that discussion has been abandoned as BAD and LAEC have decided to start maing controversial edits to the main article. Anyone who wants to fill the role of an honest broker needs to recognize that folks who so arrogantly dismiss anyone who disagrees with them needs to be placed outside the process. Tom (North Shoreman) (talk) 14:10, 13 December 2010 (UTC)

In the area of insults and snarky comments Blaxthos takes a backseat to no one working in Wikipedia. If twelve editors took part in approving that opening sentence then I can only say that they messed up. It happens. It tends to happen more when some get accused of right-wing bias and get worn down. As far as axing the article goes, some editors have done a pretty good job of that already. I noticed that the editor who introduced much of the most blatantly plagiarized material into the article (with nary a peep from any fellow editor, Tom) was awarded a barnstar for his work on it right around the same time. I guess people were just too trusting. As clumsy with a computer as it gets (my son just told me how to copy and paste without using the right click side of the mouse), I nonetheless discovered it in about 20 seconds of effort. As I said before, the amount of effort that some editors here make defending a flawed article seems to dwarf the amount of time that they actually spend improving it. Badmintonhist (talk) 16:49, 13 December 2010 (UTC)

We do need to rewrite the lead. That's been well started above, but delaying it is a good idea while the rest of the article gets combed out. I've seen worse leads. Is there other RS stuff that is critical of the SPLC we are leaving out? I agree there should probably be a sentence about the finances or criticism in the history section. Dylan, I am not drawing conclusions on editors, I was making an observation about what editors here think of BAD (as he seems to be called now). Anyway, let's be honest about the way Wikipedia works: the attacking editors are either trying to improve the article or they are trying to introduce POV. Either way, it causes the article to improve (and the article would have been static without them). So they are part of the real process. So are the editors who stonewall, as a necessary balance to the attackers. So long as the whole dynamic pushes the article toward a better state (and it usually does or crowdsourcing wouldn't work), everything is good. BE——Critical_{__Talk} 20:02, 13 December 2010 (UTC)

Why do I get the feeling that some here wouldn't be happy with any reasonably balanced portrayal of an organization (the SPLC) which has listed another organization that you support (Family Research Council) as a hate group? A little digging shows that Badmin & LAEC have been fighting criticism of the FRC at that article, e.g. [43], failed, then came here to work on breaking down this article. For example here, the illinformed criticism about SPLC's advertising costs versus litigation is misleading to say the least: promotion and outreach efforts are more than just advertising -- PSAs, publications, educational programs, various other campaigning and collateral materials, etc can all be (improperly) lumped together as marketing, and thus advertising. Taking the critics' word for it in this case is undue. -PrBeacon (talk) 20:12, 13 December 2010 (UTC)

While not disagreeing in general, I'd like to recast this in terms of accuracy, not bias, so as to put aside any personal issues. In the end, what matters is not the motivation of the editor but the extent to which their suggestions are justified. In the same way, it's perfectly fine to look at what critics are saying, just so long as we don't simply take them at their word or give them undue weight. In the case of SPLC, the amount of praise overwhelmingly exceeds the few cases of mild criticism from reliable sources, so we should follow this pattern in the article. Dylan Flaherty 20:19, 13 December 2010 (UTC)

Yes thanks for saying that about how to treat editors. I don't think the Harpers criticism was mild though. But certainly the praise is much more extensive. BE——Critical_{__Talk} 20:56, 13 December 2010 (UTC)

I want to address one more thing here -- to quote Badmintonihst: "If twelve editors took part in approving that opening sentence then I can only say that they messed up." That sentence alone shows that Badmintonhist not only refuses to accept a consensus with which he disagrees, but also that he does not understand the word consensus. You can't just show up, say "those editors must be wrong", and then proceed as if the judgment of two or three should supersede the hard work of twelve. That statement alone is demonstration that he is not an honest broker in this discussion. //Blaxthos ( t / c ) 22:20, 13 December 2010 (UTC)

There's more to Wikipedia than just consensus. If 12 out of 12 editors agree the Earth is flat, they still have no Wikipedia basis to change the page to say the Earth is flat. --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling (talk) 22:29, 13 December 2010 (UTC)

One, that's prima facie incorrect in terms of WP:CONSENSUS. Two, it's a false analogy, as you're improperly equating an immutable fact with an issue controlled by subjective opinion. //Blaxthos ( t / c ) 22:34, 13 December 2010 (UTC)

It's true you can't come in and change the consensus by fiat. But consensus can change based on the persuasive power of new arguments. Those arguments can change the minds of those who came to the former consensus. I think you see persuasion happening here... the article is improving, and by consensus. BE——Critical_{__Talk} 23:14, 13 December 2010 (UTC)

Not so fast there with that assumption, the article has improved by cautious editing and rewriting previous copyvio content, not by supposed persuasive reasoning against long-standing consensus on the contentious issues. Please don't conflate the two. -PrBeacon (talk) 03:22, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

As Legit and I have previously pointed out, some users devote far, far more effort to defending the status quo than they they do to improving the article. My friend Blaxthos is a textbook example. All sorts of edits on the talkpage, basically excoriating those who dare to criticize the article. I think one substantive edit on the actual article over the past six months. Badmintonhist (talk) 23:25, 13 December 2010 (UTC)

Your opinion on "improving the article" is far from objective. Do you deny that you resisted the SPLC-sourced criticism at the Family Research Council article before coming here? -PrBeacon (talk) 03:22, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

Now you are going after someone for edits on another page. Will you please just get back to improving this page? --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling (talk) 22:42, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

Your misguided attempt to re-frame what I just said is indicative of contrary evidence to WP:AGF. Both of you continuing the argument from the FRC article to here is relevant to what Badmin wrote just above. -PrBeacon (talk) 23:08, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

Now you are going after me for edits on another page. Will you ever just work on improving the Wiki page? I mean this page is getting filled with your comments about the supposed failings of others. Please, take a little break from the personal comments for a day or two. --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling (talk) 23:18, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

And you could choose to set the right example, by stopping yourself first. is anybody preventing you from doing that? -- Kim van der Linde ^{at venus} 23:20, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

Okay. I'm going to try not responding to the persistent personal attacks. If it ends up with people believing the substance of the personal attacks, then I will return to responding. Please consider asking these people to stop the incessant comments of a personal nature. Asking a bullied victim to stop complaining about the bullies doesn't work in real life. I doubt it will work here. But I'll give it a go given your suggestion. --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling (talk) 23:28, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

Thank you! I had already the agreement of those opther above, so I will take that that they will agree with doing the same.Looks like I am wrong.-- Kim van der Linde ^{at venus} 23:45, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

What personal attacks? Please see NPA - What is not.. Just because someone disagrees with you does not make that comment a personal attack. If you still think so, take your complaints to WQA, but stop deflecting the central question: Do you too deny that you have continued your FRC crusade here? -PrBeacon (talk) 00:07, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

It does seem odd that out of 900+ groups labeled as hate groups by the SPLC, only 2 are discussed by name. I'm sure it's pure coincidence that both of those are conservative groups. Niteshift36 (talk) 01:26, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

Non-encylopedic Fund Raising Section

The best way to determine whether something in wikipedia is encyclopedic is to compare how the same material is treated in other encyclopedias. They seem to manage to cover the same material w/o resorting to inflammatory quotes or discussions of Pulitzer Prizes.

From the Encyclopedia of Alabama ([44]):

"The dramatic, and often heroic, work of the SPLC has not gone without its critics. Questions have been raised in local and national media about changes in SPLC's fundraising tactics as it has grown to become "one of the most profitable charities in the country," as noted in Harper's magazine. Critics contend that efforts at marketing the organization for potential donors have taken the focus off the important work of the organization, such as its early efforts to fight the death penalty."

From West’s Encyclopedia of American Law (original article pasted at [45]):

"In addition to being the subject of continuous vitriolic attacks by extremist organizations, whose activity it monitors, the center was the subject of strong criticism by Washington, D.C. based writer Ken Silverstein. Writing in the November 2000 issue of Harper's Magazine, Silverstein accused the center of raising millions of dollars from fund-raising and investments but spending only a portion of the money raised on its civil rights programs."

The Encyclopedia of Business at [46] in a very detailed article doesn’t mention it at all.

The Encyclopedia of Civil Liberties covers the issue in more details (start at [47] and then switch to Amazon to get the rest of the section -- I can’t paste from either site) but it still zeroes in on what’s relevant by focusing only on what the Advertiser and Silverstein w/o inflamatory quotes.

Since there is an expressed concern about streamlining the article and the use of quotes, this section would be a place to start. It would certainly show good faith from that faction that seems to me to be concerned only with the encyclopedic nature of material that conflicts with their personal views of the SPLC. We should be able to reduce the section to one paragraph representing the SPLC position and one on the criticism, eliminating the quotes and limiting it to Silverstein and the Advertiser. I note that ALL of the encyclopedias list it LAST in their articles and NONE mention it in the opening paragraphs.

Let's discuss FIRST and edit only if consensus is obtained. Tom (North Shoreman) (talk) 16:35, 13 December 2010 (UTC)

Um... I just did that yesterday, see what you think. And I don't think we're quite to the stage yet where everyone has to discuss first. People here aren't so upset that they aren't able to value a respectful incremental edit with a good summary. BE——Critical_{__Talk} 20:08, 13 December 2010 (UTC)

I think the recent changes to this are an improvement in terms of balance. However, now that it's stated more accurately, it's become clear that there just isn't much to say here. Yes, it's possible that they'd be influenced by such motivations, but it doesn't seem as though there's any evidence of this actually happening. Reporting such vague speculation seems undue. Dylan Flaherty 20:21, 13 December 2010 (UTC)

It really boils down to outsiders criticizing the internal financial decisions of the organization. No laws have been broken and all contributions are voluntary. The only actual investigation (the Advertiser's) is over 16 years old. I agree -- there's not much there and it takes up too much space. Tom (North Shoreman) (talk) 20:31, 13 December 2010 (UTC)

Um back at you. You left in the Pulitzer prize stuff, a redundant USA today reference, a redundant Cockburn reference, and a final paragraph discussing charity ratings that besides being unnecessary relies entirely on primary sources -- where is the secondary source to show the significance of the ratings? My point was that we have examples of how encyclopedias do it and the wikipedia version does it differently.

I have no problems with purely style issues, but here I'm talking about more than style. Tom (North Shoreman) (talk) 20:31, 13 December 2010 (UTC)

Note: the Pulitzer prize issue is being discussed in a previous section, concurrently. -PrBeacon (talk) 08:25, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

Overall the criticisms are too significant to leave out. Just the fact that they said that they would stop collecting at a particular point and did not makes it quite significant. The point of having the older sources in there is that it gives the perspective of criticism over time, and that's necessary in this case. I streamlined the section quite a bit already. What do people think needs to come out? I would agree if the criticism hadn't been sustained over time. These are reliable sources with significant criticisms. BE——Critical_{__Talk} 21:07, 13 December 2010 (UTC)

I'm not saying to take all of them out. I'm saying to limit them to the Harper's and Advertiser sources, just like the three encyclopedias that mentioned it did. The Colburn and the USA Today quotes come in 1996 and 1998 -- between these two. There is a difference between being sustained over time as opposed to just being repeated over and over again by political opinion writers and every group criticized by the SPLC. There is no reliable secondary source that I am aware of that has done what the Advertiser did over 16 years ago. Tom (North Shoreman) (talk) 21:17, 13 December 2010 (UTC)

Hmm, it's an interesting suggestion. Could you edit it and paste it here at the talk page so people can see just what you're talking about? I would say, keep the sources in the article, but put the two you want to cut (USA today and the Nation) after "The SPLC has received significant criticism for excessive fundraising and having excessive reserves" just so we have them in the article for future, and they lend extra credence generally. Then cut specific mention of them from the text. BE——Critical_{__Talk} 23:24, 13 December 2010 (UTC)

Small point but worth mentioning; the Encyclopedia of Business that the North Shoreman referred to does briefly mention the SPLC fundraising issue. You'll find it under the Key Dates section as part of a summary of the criticisms of the SPLC found in the Harper's Magazine article. Badmintonhist (talk) 00:05, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

Thx, I didn't have time to read those. It does seem notable. It might not be if it weren't covered by such good sources. Harpers is an excellent magazine.... IMHO. And the other encyclopedias seem to think so. But I's dwunk wight now tho mebby i'm wrong. **GRIN** BE——Critical_{__Talk} 02:05, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

As of this revision on 12 December, the fundraising section read like a hyperbolic tirade. IMO, as of this present revision, after Becritical's edits yesterday, it is far more encyclopedic in its presentation. ... Kenosis (talk) 05:15, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

Yes it's an improvement but there's still some tightening I would suggest. Though at first I wondered why start with the line on criticism, I see that a simple switch with the second sentence doesn't work so well. I'm also not sure how exactly is it 'significant criticism' if no laws have been broken? (as Tom mentions). Here I would like to reiterate my point from another section -- advertising budgets (as they relate to fundraising, here) can be misleading since, depending on how they are calculated/perceived by an outside audit, they might include marketing efforts not strictly promotional: publishing, outreach and educational programs, PSAs etc. -PrBeacon (talk) 08:10, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

Follow-up: I've made a simple copy-edit to replace the second excessive (and to fix the problem with parallel construction) but I thought it best to ask others before replacing significant-- how about noteworthy or notable? Because the term 'significant' has several connotations: how exactly has the criticism been significant? Has it resulted in a marked change in practices, as noted by reliable source(s)? Has it resulted in legal action or other official inquiries? If these are valid questions arising from a misused word, then we should simply look for a better alternative. -PrBeacon (talk) 08:49, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

You're right [48] BE——Critical_{__Talk} 18:52, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

Two for the price of one

Well glory be! Whether or not the North Shoreman realized it at the time, he's helped to solve two problems in one search. The sources he found in working toward streamlining the "Fundraising" section of the article should help to solve the problem that I mentioned with "Teaching tolerance" section of the article; to wit, that it was exclusively primary sourced. Two of the books he discovered, The Encyclopedia of Alabama, and The Encyclopedia of Business, have a reasonable amount of material on the project. Badmintonhist (talk) 17:49, 13 December 2010 (UTC)

Suggestion that we return to the lead

While more remains to be done on body of article, it is substantially better than it was a week ago. I would suggest that we return to the lead to correct the peacockery and primary source problem found its first sentence. No reason, however, not to get the whole thing done. I think we should work with the North Shoreman's 1.1 model which, in my opinion, is fine until the middle of the last sentence starting with "welfare rights" when he lists some things that aren't talked about much in the article. Badmintonhist (talk) 21:34, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

No. Because what happens here is that there are multiple discussions ongoing about other aspects of the page that are not resolved, and contentious. The outcome of those discussions will affect what needs to be in the lead, so I suggest we first finish the issues with the article itself before dealing with the lead again. Besides that, I do not see the issues as you indicate, and more important, I think you maybe better concentrate on that yet-to-be-produced list of issues with this article, which might change what needs to go in the lead by itself. -- Kim van der Linde ^{at venus} 21:44, 14 December 2010 (UTC)