Talk:Sega Genesis

Merge discussion: Variations of the Mega Drive

I'm officially proposing we merge the Variations article into this one. It's about time we did this, for the following reasons:

• The Variations article is largely unsourced and unreferenced.
• No independent notability has been established for the multiple versions that has not been covered by this article.
• Much of the information in the Variations article is, at best, trivial. I doubt it's very encyclopedic to note that there's a new shape to every console that one couldn't already discern from the pictures in the main article.
• Currently, the Variations section in the main article is quite short. A paragraph for each main model change (original, Mega Drive 2 (JP)/Mega Drive II (PAL)/Genesis III(NA), Genesis 3, Firecore, etc., there's really not a lot) I think would do the job in prose rather than a bulleted list, and I can find sources for each unit. See Sega CD#Models for an idea of how I would tackle this, as I did there.
• Recent knock-offs are likely not notable enough for entry here, anyway; those that are could go here in Variations or even with Emulation into a new combined section, "Emulation and reproductions"
• Would eliminate a lot of WP:OR that is in the Variations article.

About the only real problem I can see is that there would be a lot of complaints from the heavily-Mega Drive people that this is their last grip on the name Mega Drive as an article name, and I'm going to suggest that List of Sega Mega Drive games be moved for the same reason "Sega Mega-CD" is now at Sega CD. Thoughts? I think this article can be strengthened by the move, another poor one that won't get any better will be eliminated, and I'd be willing to make it happen with consensus. Red Phoenix ^{build the future...}_{remember the past...} 20:00, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

• Support - As you say, consolidating it into a subsection of this article would be a great way to trim out all of the WP:OR or trivial unsourced bits. Great idea. Sergecross73 msg me 20:10, 2 July 2013 (UTC)
  • Thanks. If you've seen Sega CD, Sega 32X, and Sega v. Accolade lately, you'll know I'm on a mission to get all this cleaned up. Red Phoenix ^{build the future...}_{remember the past...} 20:12, 2 July 2013 (UTC)
    • Yeah, I have looked over them some. You've done very good work on them. I've thought at times it would be interesting to revamp some of these sorts of articles, but I always find that its too hard to find proper sources when the topic is largely rooted in the 1990s. So, good job on that. Sergecross73 msg me 20:49, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose Its a valid content fork. There is no reason to merge all of that into this article. Its fine on its own. You'll probably just end up erasing 90% of it anyway. The game list article is 186,250 bytes. Surely you can't think you are going to merge that anywhere. No valid reason to merge either of these valid content forks. Dream Focus 20:19, 2 July 2013 (UTC)
  • Per my reasons listed above, I would argue I do have a valid reason because of violations of WP:OR and WP:TRIVIA in the Variations article, which means it's not fine on its own because it's full of policy violations. While I do agree that it could be a valid content fork, that is not what I am contesting. I'm contesting that merging the content and getting rid of the trivia will improve the situation on the whole; a poor article without notability gets zapped and a developing main article gains more content in a section that it is sorely lacking. And yes, I would probably erase about 90% of it, but the 10% I keep would be what is notable, further benefitting the main article. You're still free to oppose, and I'm willing to accept that, but I just wanted you to know why I disagree with the content fork validity. Red Phoenix ^{build the future...}_{remember the past...} 20:46, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

• (edit conflict)There is a lot that needs to go from that article though. Seriously, almost all of the various bullet points should go. So many of are pointless factoids like :"AV INTELLIGENT TERMINAL HIGH GRADE MULTIPURPOSE USE" printed around circle on some models, omitted on others." or detailing the "color of the reset button" on every model. Sergecross73 msg me 20:49, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

• Weak Support Oppose w/ Alternative: On the one hand, I totally agree that as you're cleaning up the Variations article, less and less of it seems noteworthy enough to keep there. On the other hand, people have made valid points that, if you exclude the Sega first-party console releases (Genesis models 1 and 2, Genesis 3, Mega Drive equivalents of each), the vast majority of all the variations occurred in Mega Drive territories. It seems that combining them all here could cause a bit of pollution and confusion about WP:WEIGHT, especially given the article's current title. As an alternative, is there any reason we can't change Variations into a "List of" article? Just naming the variations that aren't notable enough on their own to warrant full articles or sections should work as a good compromise, methinks. — KieferSkunk (talk) — 21:33, 2 July 2013 (UTC)
  • Support compromise: I support Kiefer's list idea. That should eliminate the original research, and keep the valid fork as it's a bit much, it would be a huge section in the main article.--SexyKick 22:55, 2 July 2013 (UTC)
    • If it's what is necessary to get this rectified, I will accept the list conversion and probably ramp it up to FLC at some point. However, I still disagree that this couldn't be simply merged over. I see it only taking a couple of paragraphs, as there's no need to get in-depth with the trivial factoids of every slight change between variations. It kind of sickens me that the article title is getting thrown in as a reason against this; we should be focusing on the content of the article instead of the constant tickytack issues of the name, and I don't think each variation really warrants more than one or two sentences about it in the main article. Red Phoenix ^{build the future...}_{remember the past...} 23:14, 2 July 2013 (UTC)
      • It's not that I have any intention of stirring up the coals on that dispute again - it's more a matter of general weight: How notable are those variations? Do they put undue weight on one side or the other? Personally, I think the first-party variations (Model 2, etc.) do belong in this article, but if we wanted to specifically mention any significant number of the third-party variations, they'd end up taking more room and drawing more attention than just a couple of paragraphs - they'd look more like a list, and at that point we might as well have a separate list. (If we decided to pare it down to just one or two examples, then I imagine there'd be a fair amount of research, discussion and probably arguing about which of those are the representative sample.) — KieferSkunk (talk) — 23:20, 2 July 2013 (UTC)
        • I think the last part is where we disagree. I honestly don't believe the third-party variations warrant more than a couple of sentences about each of them, essentially noting their existence, something unique about them, etc. Those that are that complex and offer more than simple Genesis/Sega CD compatibility do already possess their own articles (see Sega Nomad, Pioneer LaserActive, Amstrad Mega PC). In the cases of each of those, the articles already do exist that can go into depth about such units. An example of how I see each mention would be similar to the first paragraph of the section for the Mega Drive Handheld: two short and sweet sentences that describe a little about the variation and hit the most important points. As I read over all of the paragraphs, hardly any of them really require much more than that, and such a list made from that would be a pretty short list, in my opinion. To me, although I know a list can be more than 5 items to be okay, it seems to be too short to me and the amount of actual necessary and notable content too short to warrant that. I guess that's just the way I see it. Red Phoenix ^{build the future...}_{remember the past...} 23:34, 2 July 2013 (UTC)
          • There are some new licensed variations not added to the article yet that came out in 2012. AtGames just keeps pumping new stuff out. I've just been so -_- when it comes to adding more sourced information lately.--SexyKick 00:20, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
  • Support compromise <Karlww _{(contribs|talk)} 22:58, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

• Strong Oppose Stop being retarded yanks62.252.234.77 (talk) 21:54, 9 July 2013 (UTC)
  • Nice violation of WP:NPA. I don't think stereotyping is the proper way to get what you want. Red Phoenix ^{build the future...}_{remember the past...} 01:09, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

Proposed merge with Genesis 6-Pak

Genesis 6-Pak doesn't appear to have any independent notability from a search engine test, though it could be worth a tiny mention in the Genesis article (as a console pack-in), if appropriate. czar · · 21:17, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

• I'd just delete it, personally. I'd recommend PRODding it. Red Phoenix ^{build the future...}_{remember the past...} 21:58, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

• Merge: Yep, no notability on its own. The individual titles contained in it have their own notability, but this thing's only claim to fame was that it was the pack-in for Genesis Model 2. — KieferSkunk (talk) — 05:39, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

• Redirect to Multicart#Sega Mega Drive/Genesis. It's a multicart that has no notability on its own. --107.206.152.174 (talk) 09:15, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

• Support This seems to make the most sense to me.--SexyKick 05:20, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

Since there's been no move on this in a week, I went ahead and redirected it. Red Phoenix ^{build the future...}_{remember the past...} 02:27, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

Google Flavour text

Following on from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Sega_Genesis/Archive_20#Google...

How does Google dicde what part to display for "Flavour Text"?

Searching for Mega Drive, currently gives:

Sega Genesis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sega_Genesis‎ In Brazil, the Mega Drive was released by Tec Toy in 1990, only a year after the Brazilian release of the Sega Master System. Tec Toy also ran the internet ...

Which is OK, but not the most important part of the article to focus on if you're looking for Mega Drive.

Is there anything that can be done with the article or metadata so that a more relevent part of it is picked up, such as the opening secion:

The Sega Genesis (often shortened to Genesis) is a home video game console released by Sega in 1988 in Japan (as the Mega Drive (メガドライブ Mega Doraibu?)), North America in 1989 and in Europe and other regions in 1990 under the name Mega Drive ?

81.149.182.210 (talk) 23:37, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

It's pointless bringing up legitimate concerns, the users here are predominantly yank, bias and retarded unfortunately62.252.234.27 (talk) 16:35, 8 August 2013 (UTC)

Your assumption of bad faith has been noted and warned appropriately. You're free to discuss the question presented by the original poster without interjecting your thoughts of perceived bias. --McDoobAU93 16:44, 8 August 2013 (UTC)

I may just be an unfortunately retarded yank, but at least I know the term you were looking for was "biased" not "bias". A person cannot be bias, he can either have a bias or be biased.76.226.143.85 (talk) 21:43, 9 August 2013 (UTC)

Return the title to Mega Drive

I'll make this short and sweet, and am aware of the history of the article's name, however it does not fit in context with the rest of the site.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nissan_Tiida

Called Tiida everywhere in the world, except for Vera in the US. The Wiki article is called Tiida.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sega_Genesis

Called Mega Drive everywhere in the world, except for Genesis in the US. The Wiki article is called Genesis.

This site should be uniform. Given that the majority of the world referred to it as the Mega Drive, this name should have dominance over the Genesis, as this name was only adopted to the US. Mixing and matching names this way is simply a mess, and it wouldn't be called Mega Drive if all the world except for US called it Geneis now, would it? I'm not going to straight out jump in and edit it, however I believe this deserves consideration to change the title back to something that fits more uniform with the site. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.11.35.133 (talk) 18:34, 8 August 2013 (UTC)

WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS. Nothing new has been added, and per consensus this type of discussion without new, novel arguments is considered disruptive. Please see Item 13 in the FAQ located at the top of this page. --McDoobAU93 18:47, 8 August 2013 (UTC)

• An IP address with zero other edits wishes to drag out a debate that has been beaten to death for months already. Stop being a coward and log in with your proper account if you have something to say. Dream Focus 19:15, 8 August 2013 (UTC)

Context of the site is based on consensus and WP:N, not necessarily that every article must follow a specific style. See, for instance, Snow tire and Formula One tyres, which use two different forms. I argued for consistency across the Mega Drive/Genesis set because they are inter-related articles, but not in every application should every article follow the same naming conventions. In fact, if you read WP:PERENNIAL, you'll note that enforcement of American or British spelling, as one example, has never been agreed upon and the enforcement of one or the other for consistency across the site has constantly failed to gain any consensus. Red Phoenix ^{build the future...}_{remember the past...} 00:46, 9 August 2013 (UTC)

WP:N Which has been used to argue that Genesis is more notable than Mega Drive is just plain wrong and relies on online sources only when there are countless offline reliable sources which support Mega Drive instead of Genesis. But there is no point arguing with these yank editors, their biased view was set long ago and no amount of valid points and rational arguments will change their warped and backward minds and these articles will remain in the cesspool of the encyclopaedia for ever62.252.234.27 (talk) 23:59, 9 August 2013 (UTC)

What if we were all Canadian?--SexyKick 06:32, 10 August 2013 (UTC)

Canada is just America's hat, so in that fashion, you're just a Yank's hat. --Izno (talk) 16:06, 10 August 2013 (UTC)

Ok 86.11, you've found A article where the American variant was not used? So what? Every article has to have a name. On Wikipedia, decisions are region-specific names are made on a case-by-case basis with little regard for consistency. I guess this is the price we pay for having different nationalities all working together. I mean, Americans aren't happy about Maize and Brits aren't happy about Gasoline, but life goes on. APL (talk) 20:36, 10 August 2013 (UTC)

I'm sure I'll regret stringing this out, but the current naming results in a horrendous intro:

The Sega Genesis (often shortened to Genesis) is a home video game console released by Sega in 1988 in Japan (as the Mega Drive (メガドライブ Mega Doraibu?)), North America in 1989 and in Europe and other regions in 1990 under the name Mega Drive—the name "Genesis" was used only in North America because Sega had been unable to secure legal rights to the Mega Drive name there.

Don't you cringe when you read that? Doesn't it tell you you've made the wrong choice? It was released as the Mega Drive, Sega wanted to call it the Mega Drive everywhere, Sega did call it the Mega Drive everywhere except in the USA because of a copyright conflict, and in Canada because it was easier to market it to North America than separately to the USA and Canada. If the article was titled Mega Drive, that intro would probably read:

The Mega Drive is a home video game console released by Sega in 1988 in Japan, 1989 in North America and in Europe and other regions in 1990. The console was renamed the Sega Genesis in the North American market because Sega had been unable to secure legal rights to the Mega Drive name there.

The current wording is palpably fighting against reality. GoldenRing (talk) 10:59, 12 August 2013 (UTC)

Here's the thing ... the lede can be reworked without renaming the article against standing consensus (or lack thereof), and trying to change the title simply because of your opinion that the lede isn't working (personally, I don't like how the lede reads either) itself won't work. Let's focus on rewording the lede instead of trying to change the name ... again. --McDoobAU93 14:58, 12 August 2013 (UTC)

Agreed, at what point does everybody just drop the WP:STICK and actually improve the article? Red Phoenix ^{build the future...}_{remember the past...} 15:15, 12 August 2013 (UTC)

No one ever will. Neither name is "correct" and neither side will accept the other. The only solution is a North American focused article at Sega Genesis and a globally focused article at Mega Drive. There is enough content out there to warrant a forked article. Its just a matter of growing consensus and then making it happen. - X201 (talk) 16:08, 12 August 2013 (UTC)

Except every time anyone has ever tried to reword the lede to be more like the latter example GoldenRing gave, it's been faught against and reverted by the same proponents of having "Sega Genesis" as the title on the basis that the article name must be mentioned first. So it's impossible to improve the lede at present unless A) either the title is changed to the international name of the console or B) the Genesis-diehards concede that the opening paragraph has to forgo the convention of predominantly using the article name as it's completely inappropriate in this instance. However the Genesis-proponents (who aren't even a majority, as th elast RfC was a rough split) are - for some utterly unknown reason - stubbornly refusing to budge in any way, even though it's clearly to the detriment of the article. --94.197.138.83 (talk) 19:34, 12 August 2013 (UTC)

So the "improvements" you're interested in, all involve putting one name first and the other name second?

There's no possible way to write the lede in a natural, non-awkward way while keeping the article name upfront?

Even if we got the best writer in the world, the lede would still be ruined forever by the requirement of mentioning the article's name in the first sentence?

APL (talk) 19:54, 12 August 2013 (UTC)

No, the improvements I'm interested in involve rewording the lede the way GoldenRing described so it isn't the contrived mess it is now. One part of that does involve using the original, most widely used name first yes, as to do otherwise does come across as awkward and confusing. Basically the only way to continue using "Genesis" in the first instance is to mention it first then add a lengthy caveat explaining that Mega Drive is the original term - which is what the lede does at the moment. When the obviously correct way to do this is the use The original and international name first, then add a brief caveat to explain why it had a different name for one territory. The sole reason anyone would be hostile to this change is because they're involved in the Mega Drive versus Genesis debate and don't want to lose any ground to their "opponents". It's really that simple and childish. --92.40.211.252 (talk) 20:12, 12 August 2013 (UTC)

Not sure why this wouldn't work for the lede (after adjustments to fill in critical details):

The Sega Genesis (often shortened to Genesis) is a home video game console released by Sega on August 14, 1989 in the United States and Canada. The console made its world debut in Japan in October 1988 as the Mega Drive; Sega was unable to secure the name Mega Drive for the console in North America and opted to market it there as Genesis instead. The console was later released in Europe in November 1990 as Mega Drive. As a fourth-generation console, the Genesis was Sega's second console to be released in North America (and third worldwide) and is the successor to the Sega Master System with which it has backward compatibility when the separately sold Power Base Converter is installed.

This should be a decent starting point for discussion on improving the lede instead of trying yet again to change the name of the article. --McDoobAU93 20:15, 12 August 2013 (UTC)

Basically there are two ways to write the lead, depending on which name for the console you use first. The way it is now basically reads as:

The Sega Genesis (originally known as the Sega Mega Drive, and known in Europe/Asia/South America/rest of the world as the Sega Mega Drive, but then had to be named the Genesis in North America due to a copyright dispute)...

Or the more natural way of putting it as some people have tried to in the past and been shot down because of the stupid name argument

The Sega Mega Drive (known as the Sega Genesis in North America due to a copyright dispute)

It's entirely obvious to any reasonable and neutral person which of those options makes more sense. --92.40.211.252 (talk) 20:16, 12 August 2013 (UTC)

You're free to discuss your points, but please back off from suggesting that editors who disagree with you are anything other than reasonable and neutral themselves. That is assuming bad faith and is not constructive. --McDoobAU93 20:18, 12 August 2013 (UTC)

McDoob, that lede you've proposed is still an absolute disaster for the reasons I've mentioned above. It's chronologically mangled, misleading, contrived and overly lengthy, when there's a far simpler way of putting it that you're refusing to consider due to your position on the naming debate. --92.40.211.252 (talk) 20:19, 12 August 2013 (UTC)

Your opinion has been noted, as has your continued assumption of bad faith of other editors. Let's see what other editors think and what suggestions they might offer instead. --McDoobAU93 20:21, 12 August 2013 (UTC)

I've started a new section below with my suggestion (so it doesn't get buried). Any good? Let me know what you think. 86.4.242.105 (talk) 16:43, 14 August 2013 (UTC)

Here's a thought; why even mention the copyright dispute in the lead? It's worth a mention in the development section, but there's nothing that says it has to be in the lead. Something like this, perhaps:

The Sega Genesis is a home video game console released by Sega in 1988 in Japan (as the Mega Drive (メガドライブ Mega Doraibu?)), North America in 1989, and in Europe and other regions in 1990, also under the name Mega Drive. As a fourth-generation console, the Genesis is Sega's third console and the successor to the Sega Master System with which it has backward compatibility when the separately sold Power Base Converter is installed.

There, problem solved. Now, can we please stop beating the WP:DEADHORSE about the title? There was no consensus, there will never be consensus because each side thinks they're right, and the title is where it is because of WP:TITLECHANGES and no consensus to move from its current title. Red Phoenix ^{build the future...}_{remember the past...} 02:46, 13 August 2013 (UTC)

That's still poorly written because you're mentioning the one instance where it's called the Genesis first and then having to list everywhere else where it's called the Mega Drive. Also in addition to being badly written, you're now removing important information (the copyright dispute) from the lede in order to try and make it less unweildy, when again there's a much more elegant solution which is to put the names the other way round, where "Mega Drive" is used first and then the "Genesis" name is mentioned secondly and in the correct context. --94.197.134.131 (talk) 05:41, 13 August 2013 (UTC)

I don't see anything wrong with the version McDoobAU93 posted. It does not seem awkward or forced at all.

It introduces the topic briefly and clearly. It explains the confusion of the names as quickly as possible. And it's logically and grammatically correct.

APL (talk) 09:06, 13 August 2013 (UTC)

User talk:Red Phoenix's version is at least as bad as what's there. The problem is not that the copyright problem is mentioned or not. The problem is that the intersection between the convention of mentioning the article title first and the decision not to use the original name of the product results in a lede that is necessarily written in a non-chronological order. McDoob's version reads more naturally, but has a North American bias that isn't appropriate in an article about a global product. IMO it is not possible to write in the most natural way without either changing the title or making an exception to the convention of mentioning the article title first. I'm happy to be convinced otherwise, if someone can see how to do it well. But I can't see how presenting chronological information non-chronologically satisfies that. GoldenRing (talk) 09:59, 13 August 2013 (UTC)

I appreciate the praise and constructive criticism offered thus far. I agree that the sentence starting with "As a fourth-generation console ..." does bias the discussion more to North America, and I think it might read better this way, putting the global nature of the console first:

As a fourth-generation console, the Mega Drive/Genesis was Sega's third console and is the successor to the Sega Master System with which it has backward compatibility when the separately sold Power Base Converter is installed.

I am leaning towards APL's line of thought, that maybe there is a need for separate Genesis and MD articles, which probably drove how I wrote the sentence the first time. My goal is more to improve the article, though, so I'm more than willing to offer other ideas and accept more suggestions. --McDoobAU93 15:01, 13 August 2013 (UTC)

I think that works well, but I gather there are objections to the 'Mega Drive / Genesis' formulation - it doesn't use the article title as the beginning of the lede. GoldenRing (talk) 15:49, 13 August 2013 (UTC)

I echo GoldenRing's sentiments. That opening sentence is much, much better than what we have, but there may be a slight issue using the slash juxtaposition. To those unfamiliar with the subject matter, slashes leave open the possibility for ambiguity due to the various uses of slashes in punctuation (technically; anywhere else it would be fine, but as this is an encyclopaedia, these minute details matter).

I'm not sure what the best alternative to that is, which is still going to keep everyone happy. We could use parenthesis instead of the slash, e.g. "the Mega Drive (Genesis in North America)" as one option. Alternatively, we could use the second sentence to explain the naming of the North American variant so it's still immediate enough in the lead to provide clarity, even though we're using the Mega Drive name in the first instance. Yes, generally it's preferable to use the article title in reference to the subject first, but in this particular case I don't think that's a tenable option, for the reasons discussed. --188.30.128.138 (talk) 18:27, 13 August 2013 (UTC)

In times like this, when we're worried about such things...it's good to look at featured articles of the same subject manner. So what does the Super NES article lead look like? I like RedPhoenix's version really, and it would barely change at all to match it to the Super NES style, and it cuts out all un-naturalness, and so since it matches a featured article for similar subject material, I'm good with that, and anyone arguing against a featured article's style has no interest of this article at heart and I don't want to hear it from them any longer.--SexyKick 18:10, 13 August 2013 (UTC)

But the SNES article uses the international name first, and the regional variant second - which is the exact opposite of what you've been arguing. I quote the article:

The Super Nintendo Entertainment System (also known as the Super NES, SNES[b] or Super Nintendo) is a 16-bit video game console that was released in 1990 by Nintendo in Japan (as the Super Famicom (スーパーファミコン Sūpā Famikon?, officially adopting the abbreviated name of its predecessor, the Family Computer) or SFC for short), 1991 in North America, 1992 in Europe & Australasia (Oceania), and South America in 1993.

So the equivalent of that for this article would be:

The Mega Drive is a 16-bit video game console that was released in 1988 by Sega in Japan, 1989 in North America (as the Genesis), and Europe and other regions in 1990.

That reads fine, and I have no problem with that. What I suspect your take on the SNES comparison was (correct me if I'm wrong), was that we should word it like this:

The Sega Genesis is a 16-bit video game console that was released in 1988 by Sega in Japan (as the Mega Drive), in North America, an in Europe and other regions in 1990 (as the Mega Drive).

Clearly, the latter example is messier than the former, and I feel it's not in the same spirit of the way the SNES article deals with its naming issue either. --188.30.128.138 (talk) 18:37, 13 August 2013 (UTC)

So the SNES article does not open with the machine's original launch title?

Instead it opens with the article name? APL (talk) 19:59, 13 August 2013 (UTC)

"The Mega Drive is a 16-bit video game console that was released in 1988 by Sega in Japan, 1989 in North America (as the Genesis), and Europe and other regions in 1990."

That just seems perfect to me - clean, elegant, to the point, no chance of confusion. I'm 100% behind changing the article name to "Sega Mega Drive" and using that as the opening sentence of the article. Can anyone offer a sensible reason not to do this? 86.4.242.105 (talk) 20:06, 13 August 2013 (UTC)

For an article with multiple names, it's usually considered good form to put the article-name first.

The guidelines for opening sentences suggests that the alternate names should follow the article name.

In my opinion, the idea that doing it this way is somehow "impossible" is just culture-waring. A good writer can make it work in any order. McDoobAU93's version seems to be just as clean and to the point, with no chance of confusion. AND it leads with the article name. (Which makes it better, even if you are angry about the article name.) APL (talk) 20:20, 13 August 2013 (UTC)

The proposed opening sentence does indeed start with the article name - if it were changed to "Sega Mega Drive" (which is the central purpose of this thread, after all).

And while I'm going to have to completely disagree that McDoobAU93's version is "clean and to the point" - to me, it's just about the opposite of that - I never suggested anything was "impossible" and I'm not culture-warring. I genuinely believe that the intended name for the console was always "Mega Drive", and "Genesis" was Plan B due to a trademark conflict. I don't think that's a particularly controversial belief - is it? 86.4.242.105 (talk) 21:30, 13 August 2013 (UTC)

This is just going around in the same old circles. The IP editors have said their piece, and (unsurprisingly) no new consensus has formed as a result. APL (talk) 02:47, 14 August 2013 (UTC)

Perhaps we can all reach a consensus if we keep trying. Now, you seem to have ignored my question, so I'll ask it again, slightly rephrased. Here's a simple, one-sentence statement:

The console in question was intended by Sega to be named "Mega Drive", but was renamed "Genesis" in North America due to a trademark conflict.

Is that true? Would you - or anyone else reading this - care to refute that? 86.4.242.105 (talk) 03:00, 14 August 2013 (UTC)

So? That point has been addressed for a long time.LedRush (talk) 05:05, 14 August 2013 (UTC)

Well, this is the main thrust of my argument for changing the page title (that "Mega Drive" was used by Sega before and after "Genesis", making the latter the anomaly rather than the primary name). I know from the FAQ that it has been raised previously, but I'm trying to ascertain whether it was accepted as true or not. If it wasn't accepted as true at the time (due to a lack of evidence, for example), then if somebody can prove it to be the case, it would constitute a new argument. Now, would anyone mind helping me ascertain this, please, because no-one here has attempted to refute the statement so far? Many thanks. 86.4.242.105 (talk) 15:15, 14 August 2013 (UTC)

This is what I mean. Same old circles. If you want an answer to your questions, go read the FAQ. APL (talk) 12:44, 14 August 2013 (UTC)

I've read the FAQ, and it doesn't answer my question at all. It shows that it was previously raised, but not whether it was accepted or disputed. Would you mind pointing me in the right direction, please? 86.4.242.105 (talk) 15:05, 14 August 2013 (UTC)

Can I remind everyone of the last point on our FAQ: "In June of 2013 a near-unanimous consensus of participating editors agreed that, after a good-faith review of this FAQ, discussing the title issue without raising something new would be considered disruptive.". There is nothing new here. If you're still planning in participating in this continued disruption, we need to find an admin and start blocking people from editing here. Disruptive editing is not well-received here. SteveBaker (talk) 06:28, 14 August 2013 (UTC)

I stepped away from this discussion for a while, because it was both boring and embarrassing. I'll just comment here that I doubt an admin would block editors for any of the above unless personal attacks were involved - which is not unknown, and that the best course of action (IMO, of course) is to simply revert any additions that don't provide new arguments.

I would also personally be against blocking editors, because (usually) they are editing in good faith, however they are also editing from an ignorant point of view in that they have not read the faq, nor read any of the previous arguments - especially those that have long since been archived. The process, (again - IMO) should be:

• Non-new argument added
• (Revert)
• Editor reinserts same argument
• (Revert and warned of consequence)
• Editor reinserts same argument - usually with some kind of derogatory anti-US comment tagged on, if history is anything to go by.
• (Revert and 24 hour block)
• Editor comes back with new argument
• (Discuss)

Something like that. Chaheel Riens (talk) 10:40, 14 August 2013 (UTC)

You never had consensus SteveBaker... and the user is bringing up a new issue, which is the lead is written arse backwards. Chaheel Riens advocating censorship on a talk page is beyond abhorrent... wtf is wrong with you????62.252.234.27 (talk) 15:11, 14 August 2013 (UTC)

Yes, we did have consensus. Go back and read the debate...that's why it's in the FAQ. This isn't a new argument - it's one we've seen many times before. Wikipedia "censors" talk pages all the time - you aren't allowed to be rude to people, you're not allowed to violate copyright - there are MANY reasons why your posts may get censored. One reason is "Disruptive editing". This is a tough one to pin down - but editors of this page overwhelmingly agree that continually rehashing the same arguments over this naming issue without bringing new and compelling arguments to the table is DISRUPTIVE to our work here. We don't mind people bringing up the issue with brand new, compelling arguments - but when someone rehashes old arguments - we warn that continuing to push the issue is disrupting our work here...and that's something that the admins will happily defend us from. So how about we all Wikipedia:Drop the stick and back slowly away from the horse carcass - OK? 216.136.51.242 (talk) 16:52, 14 August 2013 (UTC)

I'll tell you exactly what the fuck is wrong with me - it's the constant banal, immature and jingoistic arguments that have been heard time and time and time and time again. I suspect that many of the argument makers here don't really care about the title, they simply don't want the all-crushing American influence to be present - and consider "Sega Genesis" to be a personal affront to their own particular nationality. If all you pedantic editors feel so strongly about the "correct" title, why don't you all go and have a field day over at the スーパーファミコン article? You'll note that it is also called "Super Nintendo Entertainment System" - shock horror - another Americanism?

I'm not advocating censorship - which implies removal of any comment that goes against the current title. I'm more specific than that, and advocating the purging of unhelpful comments made by those who do not consider it necessary to research their arguments before making them, and thus waste everybody's time. Either that, or statements that offer no argument at all and just state "Megadrive is correct!" without giving any indication of why such a claim should be taken on board and discussed. As you can see, I invite discussion over any new arguments that may be made.

If an editor really, truly feels that they have a valid point to make, and wishes to be neutral and intelligent about it, then they have a duty to research it first. Indeed, research into a topic which is so volatile should be an obvious requirement for any editor. If they fall at that hurdle, then they should have the common decency to accept that their argument has already been heard. If it didn't work before, then it's unlikely that presenting the same argument but tagging "Stop being retarded yanks" on the end will yield positive results. Chaheel Riens (talk) 16:35, 14 August 2013 (UTC)

I don't care what the title is called, and have long since become bored with the whole thing - what I do still care about is how arguments are presented for the title. I will go with and support whichever is presented in the most mature, intellectual and researched manner. Chaheel Riens (talk) 16:35, 14 August 2013 (UTC)

"Can I remind everyone of the last point on our FAQ: "In June of 2013 a near-unanimous consensus of participating editors agreed that, after a good-faith review of this FAQ, discussing the title issue without raising something new would be considered disruptive."." - I don't recall this having ever happened. Unless by "near-unanimous" you mean the roughly 50% of editors who were in favour of Genesis over Mega Drive. All the arguments used previously are perfectly acceptable to bring up again in my opinion, as there was no consensus during the last debate and the arguments used were never refuted. To re-iterate there was no consensus during the last debate that "Sega Genesis" was the preferred article title, or that further debate on the title would be considered disruptive, anyone claiming that was the case is mistaken. There was a roughly 50/50 split over the title, and the final result was a consequence of Wikipedia tie-breaker policies specifically intended for use when no consensus can be reached. --94.197.137.92 (talk) 19:09, 14 August 2013 (UTC)

Lead section

It's described above as being a "disaster", and I happen to agree. Here's a rewrite, retaining what I think are the most important points and removing what I consider fluff:

The Sega Genesis - known as the Sega Mega Drive outside of North America - is a home video game console released by Sega in 1988. A fourth-generation machine, it was Sega's third home console and the successor to the Sega Master System. Two years later, the Super Nintendo Entertainment System was released, and the intense competition between the two would dominate the 16-bit era of video gaming.

The console entered production in Japan in 1988, and the last new licensed game was released in Brazil in 2002, ending the Genesis's commercial life with it as Sega's most successful console. Several hardware add-ons were created down the years, including the Sega CD (known as the Mega-CD outside of North America) and 32X, which extended its technical capabilities.

The Genesis and its games continue to be popular among fans, collectors, emulation enthusiasts, and throughout the fan translation scene. Licensed third-party variations of the console are still being produced to this day, along with the output of several indie game developers. Many games have been re-released in compilations for newer systems, with some offered for download on online services such as Wii Virtual Console, Xbox Live Arcade, PlayStation Network and Steam.

Improvement or not? Needs work, but it's a start. 86.4.242.105 (talk) 16:25, 14 August 2013 (UTC)

Yeah, that's much better than what we have. It does just get right to the crux of the issue and state clearly that the console is known as the Mega Drive near-universally outside North America, which is what the current lead skirts around and doesn't make explicit. Obviously I feel it makes much more sense for it to be worded as "The Sega Mega Drive - known as the Sega Genesis in North America - is the more natural and correct way to word it, but the pro-Genesis group (almost entirely North Americans) would never stand for that for reasons that I don't entirely understand, frankly. --94.197.137.92 (talk) 19:20, 14 August 2013 (UTC)