Talk:Genetically modified food

Template:WAP assignment

Misleading presentation

The statement that GM foods on the market pose no risk is subtly different from the statement that GMOs carry no potential risk. In the lede, the cited sources do support the statement about foods "on the market" but they don't support the idea that there is no potential risk from GM foods. Yet the potential risks aren't even mentioned in the lede. Howunusual (talk) 03:52, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

I don't understand your point. This article is about actual, not theoretical, GM food. The article on GM controversies goes into the potential risks. Jytdog (talk) 10:47, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

The article is about the broad topic of genetic modification of food, not just the GM food that is currently on the market. At least, that is a natural assumption for readers to make. So, there is a bit of sleight of hand, in making a statement--in the lede--about a broad scientific consensus that is, actually, only true of food currently on the market. Howunusual (talk) 16:23, 29 November 2014 (UTC)

the article is currently about actual, not theoretical, GM food. we can of course discuss broadening the scope... Jytdog (talk) 01:59, 30 November 2014 (UTC)

Howunusual (talk): Thank you for your suggestion. You are correct. Jytdog says that "the article is currently about actual, not theoretical, GM food." Who decided that? I don't agree with that assumption, and it is not stated in the article. I agree with Howunusual (talk) that it is a "sleight of hand", and deliberately misleading. Can we agree to add the content Howunusual (talk) suggested? David Tornheim (talk) 22:25, 1 March 2015 (UTC)

There is no sleight of hand.. the article is as clear as it could be.

The focus on actual food as opposed to theoretical food (?) or products in development, was decided back when the the articles were reorganized so they would each cover a distinct aspect - we have one on the basic science (Genetic engineering); one broadly covering the various kinds of organisms that have been modified, and why (Genetically modified organism) (which has many, many subarticles); one on the actual crops that have been modified, really focused on the crops themselves and how they are used in agriculture - which was completely lacking when we started - (Genetically modified crops) and one on the resulting food (this one). There are two articles on regulation (Regulation of genetically modified organisms focused on the basic science, and Regulation of the release of genetically modified organisms which is focused more on commercialization - the actual release of them into the world). Finally, because the controversies cut across all of them, and had come to dominate all of them in a thicket-y, repetitious, and even self-contradictory way, we created a Genetically modified food controversies article that covered all of it in one place, and per WP:SUMMARY, included a summary of that article in each of the others. We did the same thing with the regulation-of-release article. You will find those two summary sections near the end of each of the articles above, and a set of links at the top orienting the reader where other related topics are. It has worked well to keep the content well-organized and non-overlapping for a few years now. We can discuss a re-organization, anytime you like. It should take the other, related articles into account.

I think it is really important that people have a place to go, to learn about what actual food out there is GM. That content didn't exist in WP before we built it. Jytdog (talk) 22:59, 1 March 2015 (UTC)

It is completely possible that some future GM food might be hazardous to humans. Genetics, while rapidly advancing, is still in its infancy. To assert that some speculated food will be harmful is not helpful. Better to talk about whatever flaws may exist in today's risk assessments and testing protocols. You can't prove that every GM food will be safe (or prove any other prediction.) You can assess the safety of today's products and discuss the risks of today's procedures producing some future harm. That's it. Lfstevens (talk) 08:49, 2 March 2015 (UTC)

I agree with Lfstevens (talk). This is one of the major criticisms by GMO critics--insufficient testing. The articles does not reflect that and is therefore lacks NPOV. Let's include information from critics in both the lede and the article about concerns of insufficient testing and showing the major differences between the U.S. and Europe and nations that have GMO bans. None of this is articulated in the article, but instead there is vague language with "big" words like "regulation" and "differences" but no details with useful information. Consumers need to know the difference in regulation between different countries, so they know what is possible, not just which things products are GMO--which incidentally they would know if the industry, AMA, etc. did not so vigorously oppose labelling.David Tornheim (talk) 10:37, 2 March 2015 (UTC)

If we have WP:RS support for the "inadequate testing" claim, I'd say that goes in. I have seen a host of non-RS sources making the claim. As has been repeatedly covered, the issue is not the existence of a claim. It's about sources. Lfstevens (talk) 16:48, 2 March 2015 (UTC)

Edit request

In the introduction, it would be appropriate to note that genetic modification simply refers to the editing of DNA sequence, and cannot be classified as entirely dangerous or not. It depends on the genes being altered. Much like changes in the human genome can be favorable (e.g. HIV resistance through Ccr5 polymorphism), unfavorable (e.g. CFTR mutation causing cystic fibrosis), or context-dependent (e.g. polymorphism for sickle cell anemia).

Also, what is required to be able to edit this page? I have a PhD from Harvard. Thanks. CellbioPhD (talk) 05:22, 23 November 2014 (UTC)cellbiophd

anyone can edit the page. if your edit is not good, it will be reverted. this is natural especially when you are learning, so don't take it personally. please read the introduction again. it does not say that any genetic modification is safe. what it says is very carefully worded. please the comment above, as well. Jytdog (talk) 06:21, 23 November 2014 (UTC)

CellbioPhD (talk): Thank you for your suggestion. Can we all agree this should be added to the article? David Tornheim (talk) 22:18, 1 March 2015 (UTC)

Politifact: Sen. Donna Nesselbush: three quarters of processed foods have genetically modified organisms

Maybe this article or the sources it links to can be used for something, here or in one of the subarticles. [1] Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 13:33, 25 March 2015 (UTC)

Hm. that is a pretty decent source... might be good for a general section - with the correct information from the body of that article :) Jytdog (talk) 13:36, 25 March 2015 (UTC)

Discussions on scientific consensus on GMO safety elsewhere

See particularly.

FYI. The claim of "scientific consensus" on GMO safety is being discussed here and was briefly discussed here. David Tornheim (talk) 05:11, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

Copyedit

Took a run through this. Feedback encouraged. Comments:

• Reduced wc by about 15%
• Still a lot of extra stuff in there that describes various foods, regardless of whether they are GM. The piece would be better without it, but since I didn't know why it was there, I let it ride.
• Added 1 cn for the Greenpeace sentence.
• Grouped the various kinds of mods.

Cheers! Lfstevens (talk) 01:36, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

thanks, i appreciate your run-through. Jytdog (talk) 03:27, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

me too. I have not had a chance to review your changes yet. David Tornheim (talk) 05:42, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

Most of what I looked at where you cut out unnecessary words is good editting. This change does more than cut down words and eliminates some meaning:

• Original: "economic concerns raised by the fact that GM seeds (and potentially animals) that are food sources are subject to intellectual property rights owned by corporations."
• Revision: " the fact that some GM seeds that are food sources are subject to intellectual property rights and owned by corporations"

I request you restore it back to the original, because economic concerns are in addition to property rights, and the idea of patenting animals is an additional concern. To shorten it, this might work:

• Proposed Alternative: "economic concerns, especially intellectual property rights over food sources (currently GM seeds), and possibly animals, that become monopolistic." David Tornheim (talk) 05:59, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

I took out "economic concerns" because it was vague. If you have a citeable list of specific concerns, happy to add those. Lfstevens (talk) 16:23, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

Please restore these two sentence unless all of the material is found elsewhere in the article

• "Food biotechnology has grown to include cloning of plants and animals, as well as further development in genetically modified foods in recent years."

Cloning is not GM. This article is not about biotek. The last half is too vague. If you have specifics in mind, list and source them. Lfstevens (talk) 16:23, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

• "Plants are now engineered for insect resistance, fungal resistance, viral resistance, herbicide resistance, changed nutritional content, improved taste, and improved storage."

Need cite. Lfstevens (talk) 16:23, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

In the Process section: Re Regulation: My understanding is that applications are voluntary, but I did not see that in the original or the revision of this section.

Is there such a thing as an involuntary application for anything? Lfstevens (talk) 16:23, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

I'm stopping here for tonight...David Tornheim (talk) 06:15, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for the scrutiny. Keep it up! Lfstevens (talk) 16:23, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

Detection

I suggest that the emphasis on a single 5-year old primary article for this section is inappropriate. especially since Google Scholar shows it cited by only 25 articles, evidence that it has an insignificant effect on the scientific literature. Inspection of those articles citing it are almost exclusively limited to those discussing soybeans only. It's a suitable reference, but not for the long quote. DGG ( talk ) 15:32, 24 April 2015 (UTC)

WHO source

GrayDuck156, please explain your objection to the WHO source per your deletions here and here and here. Thanks. Jytdog (talk) 00:21, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

First of all, I am a new editor, so I apologize in advance for any more awkwardness. As to the reason I removed that citation, the source does not support the claim. The link simply contains no support for the claim that "[t]here is broad scientific consensus that food on the market derived from GM crops poses no greater risk to human health than conventional food."

In fact, the source contradicts the claim by saying "...it is not possible to make general statements on the safety of all GM foods." Your response, that the sentence does not say "all GMO foods," is not convincing because a reader must assume that subject was implied or the sentence makes little sense. If only an unspecified subset of such foods is included then, logically, 99.9 percent of all GMO food could cause everyone to drop dead if they come within a mile of the stuff and the sentence would still make sense. How about a compromise--change "...food..." to "...an unspecified subset of food..."

I certainly hope that Wikipedia does not change from being a neutral source of information to being a propaganda vehicle. — Preceding unsigned comment added by GrayDuck156 (talk • contribs) 00:37, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

Thank you for talking! That is what we do here when we disagree. it is completely true that it would be idiocy to say that "all GM food is safe". No one here will argue with that. The statement in the article does not say anything about "all GM foods". It says "currently marketed". That is a very, very small subset of "all GM foods" that could ever exist. It is also a very clear subset. The mistake you have made here, is a common one. That is why I wrote in my edit note, "please also read the actual content - it doesn't say "all GM food""

Going further, The WHO source makes it clear that there are three main theoretical concerns. The WHO source also says (emphasis added) "GM foods currently available on the international market have passed safety assessments and are not likely to present risks for human health. In addition, no effects on human health have been shown as a result of the consumption of such foods by the general population in the countries where they have been approved. Continuous application of safety assessments based on the Codex Alimentarius principles and, where appropriate, adequate post market monitoring, should form the basis for ensuring the safety of GM foods." Do you see how this source exactly supports the content now? Jytdog (talk) 00:45, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

That string of citations in the lead makes it look like we are synthesizing, or at least heavily emphasizing, the point, "'broad scientific consensus,' here, look at it all." Probably just the AAAS citation would do (the rest could go where this reappears in the body text), as the AAAS source says: 'Moreover, the AAAS Board said, the World Health Organization, the American Medical Association, the U.S. National Academy of Sciences, the British Royal Society, and “every other respected organization that has examined the evidence has come to the same conclusion: consuming foods containing ingredients derived from GM crops is no riskier than consuming the same foods containing ingredients from crop plants modified by conventional plant improvement techniques.”' In this case, that should support "broad scientific consensus," additionally supported by the further citations later on. --Tsavage (talk) 14:07, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

there are so many citations because so many people hate GMOs and come here attacking the statement. It and its sourcing were upheld in an RfC - a link to that is in the FAQ at the top of the Genetically modified food controversies article. Jytdog (talk) 14:21, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

I would agree with Tsavage that his wording sticks closer to sources without using SYNTH. Justification of the use of SYNTH has no basis in WP policy. I disagree that all discussion should come to halt once a past RfC is referenced; this seems a tactic also not based in PAGs.

I first raised the issue of this "scientific consensus" string of refs at the March Against Monsanto article, where it was inserted early in the creation of the article, but without any reference to the March. It remains one of the most egregious violations of WP:SYNTH on WP that I have seen.

I notice that the "scientific consensus" is elaborated upon in the controversy section. This makes no sense unless it is being used as a rebuttal. Much like in the MAM article, this is a violation of WP:OR. Why should this be under "controversy" rather than in its own section:

There is broad scientific consensus that food on the market derived from GM crops poses no greater risk than conventional food. No reports of ill effects have been documented in the human population from GM food. The starting point for assessing GM food safety is to evaluate its similarity to the non-modified version. Further testing is then done on a case-by-case basis to ensure that concerns over potential toxicity and allergenicity are satisfied.

The second portion of this paragraph mentions the labeling aspect, but reads more like a PR statement for the FDA (which is currently run by a former VP and lobbyist for Monsanto):

Although labeling of GMO products in the marketplace is required in 64 countries, the US does not require this. The FDA's policy is to require a label given significant differences in composition or health impacts. They have not identified such differences in any food currently approved for sale.

I'm seeing violations of WP:SYNTH, WP:OR as well as what seems like Advocacy. (Mentioning this should not be construed as "GMO hating".) petrarchan47คุก 23:20, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

The WP community saw none of those things in the RfC. Jytdog (talk) 04:31, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

You're saying that 1/3 of the controversy section being used to reiterate consensus of safety (rather than to discuss controversy) was addressed in an RfC? Can you link to this discussion please? petrarchan47คุก 08:59, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

After 3 attempts to procure said discussion, I have gone ahead and removed the safety section from "Controversy", and to this section added the percentage of Americans who favor labeling (which is what makes it controversial) as well as the new USDA labeling program. petrarchan47คุก 04:57, 30 May 2015 (UTC)

@Jytdog:"Do you see how this source exactly supports the content now?" I disagree with your logic. The WHO claiming that some GMO foods "have passed safety assessments" is not equivalent to the WHO pronouncing that broad scientific consensus exists that food on the market derived from GM crops poses no greater risk to human health than conventional food--especially considering that the WHO neglected to cite any independently-administered clinical trials. Moreover, The WHO claiming that some GMO foods are not likely to present risks for human health is not equivalent to the WHO pronouncing that those foods pose "no greater risk to human health than conventional food." Skydiving is not likely to present risks for human health (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parachuting#Safety), but that hardly means that skydiving poses no greater risk to human health than other forms of recreation like reading or walking.GrayDuck156 (talk) 00:45, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

I hear you; that is your interpretation. If you read all the sources there, they add up to the same thing. There is no basis - no mechanism for toxicity - for questioning the safety of currently marketed GM food relative to conventional food. Which is not perfectly safe. The comparison with skydiving is not apt, at all. Jytdog (talk) 05:13, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

@Jytdog: "If you read all the sources there, they add up to the same thing." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:No_original_research#Synthesis_of_published_material: "Do not combine material from multiple sources to reach or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by any of the sources." I think this sentence is clear in saying that your defense is not valid. "There is no basis...for questioning the safety of currently marketed GM food relative to conventional food." This is your opinion, not a statement in the WHO web page. "Which is not perfectly safe." I do not see how this sentence relates to whether the WHO citation supports the claim in the article. "The comparison with skydiving is not apt, at all." Please explain.GrayDuck156 (talk) 05:36, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

What we do here is read reliable sources and summarize them. Summarizing is not synthesis. really, you are beating a dead horse here. Jytdog (talk) 05:38, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

@Jytdog: The point is that the WHO article lends no support to the sentence the citation claims to support. None whatsoever. And, as I pointed out below, none of the commenters in that somewhat-related RfC argued in favor of keeping the WHO citation.GrayDuck156 (talk) 06:04, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

I suggest taking a look at this conversation where the consensus statement was recently discussed. There's more going on than just the WHO statement, but we've got adequate sourcing for the statement in general. Also, you might want to read WP:THREAD since you're new to the talk pages. If you indent your comments, we can know who you're replying to. Your last comment technically started a new thread in this section, but that's fine to break things up too for now. Kingofaces43 (talk) 00:59, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

@Kingofaces43: Thanks for the tips. With regard to your substantive comment, my concern with the WHO citation is not that it is overkill, but that it simply does not lend support to the claim in the article. You and Jytdog have been specific about which sentence you believe lends credence to the sentence, but I have explained why I disagree. Thus, I think you and Jytdog need to explain your analysis in more detail to justify your position that the citation should remain in the article. Please note that I think some of the comments in this thread have become a little off topic. My concern, at least in this context, is only with the WHO citation and its failure to support the preceding sentence in the article.

And I don't agree. And neither does the community. Again, please read the RfC, and please read about RfCs (here WP:RFC) before you continue arguing. You cannot change things by pounding away on dead horses, that the community has already affirmed. Nothing has changed science-wise since the RfC. Thanks. Jytdog (talk) 05:24, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

@Jytdog:The RfC addressed whether the sentence should remain, not whether the WHO citation should remain. Only one commenter addressed that citation; his assessment of it was entirely negative.GrayDuck156 (talk) 05:52, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

not explicitly mentioning it, is just that. the statement and its sourcing were upheld. And the source does support the statement. I have no idea what is at stake for you here. You clearly misread the content when you started and you are just shifting ground here. I suggest you drop the stick. Jytdog (talk) 05:57, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

@Jytdog: With regard to the citation overkill, there is no need for it because "broad scientific consensus" (or some equivalent wording) appears to be supported in this case by the AAAS statement, for one. If each of those reports actually say there is general consensus (which they all do not), then they are redundant, especially in a lead where no citations are required if the material is a summary of body content. If those sources are simply individual examples of "no harm" findings, then this is some form of synthesis, where a conclusion is being drawn from a number of items - it is not a simple summary to add up a series of documents pronouncing on complex scientific issues to arrive at a brief original summary phrase (no matter how routinely that may be done by topic experts in their professional circles). My point, though, is that a line of citations does not give confidence to the reader.

The RfC on "broad scientific consensus" is not "the WP community" it is a dozen or so editors (WP:CONLIMITED), taking the "informal process for requesting outside input" of an WP:RFC on a daughter article Talk page, attempting to approve original research against core guidance, WP:RS/AC "The statement that all or most scientists or scholars hold a certain view requires reliable sourcing that directly says that all or most scientists or scholars hold that view. Otherwise, individual opinions should be identified as those of particular, named sources. Editors should avoid original research especially with regard to making blanket statements based on novel syntheses of disparate material. Stated simply, any statement in Wikipedia that academic consensus exists on a topic must be sourced rather than being based on the opinion or assessment of editors."

This, like other similar arguments I have seen recently on various science and medicine pages, seem to be all about the editors and their opinions, often to the detriment of content accessibility, when our only good reason to be editing is to write a usable encyclopedia for general readers. My original comment here is about editorial presentation within all other content guidance, and the argument in reply is about other considerations that apparently override basic readability, meanwhile, hitting a wall of citations in a lead makes me wonder as reader what is going on, and begin to mistrust what I am reading. The reason for the multiple citations, as I interpret from the reply, is "citation overkill as a preemptive measure to satisfy the inevitable unreasonable anti-GMO editors who will routinely show up, this tactic in part based on an article-level RfC that attempts to override core guidance by legitimizing a piece of original research." That's a lot for an editor to contend with, and yet it is tossed off as routine. It's not a good state of things. --Tsavage (talk) 08:13, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

I don't know what you mean by "article level RfC". The RfC was on a specific statement, with its sourcing. Jytdog (talk) 12:11, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

• I agree with nearly everything said by GrayDuck156, Tsavage and Petrarchan47 about the problems with the claimed "scientific consensus" statement and the use of the WHO statement and other sources in its defense and agree that the sentence is little more than WP:OR and WP:SYN. The sources for that WP:OR originate from pro-GMO industry biased writers like Pamela Ronald and Jon Entine (and his Genetic Literacy Project). These problems exist regardless of conflicted commentary in the old RfC, which had numerous valid objections, was not even close to unanimous, which even the closer noted was less than conclusive about the use of the sources. The closer also noted concerns with bias and balance that were oft repeated in that RfC, before and after that RfC. Above GrayDuck156 said "Please note that I think some of the comments in this thread have become a little off topic." I do want to respect that concern; however, in talking about whether the WHO statement can be used to support the sentence comes in the context of the RfC, the other sources, the WP:OR issues and the problem with undue weight, etc., so it is hard for me to discuss without considering the entire context that sentence is found which makes it so problematic and biased. Please also note previous concerns I raised here and LesVegas raised here, and sources I provided here that challenge the bogus "scientific consensus" statement. I will likely create a new topic just about the "scientific consensus" as I did previously, or we can continue here. David Tornheim (talk) 23:51, 29 May 2015 (UTC)
• As is discussed here, the evidence for the "broad scientific consensus" claim is very bad. The dateless authorless WHO FAQ especially so. GrayDuck is correct that this source makes direct statements against the claim at hand! As can be seen from the linked page, the WHO FAQ has been used to support the questionable "scientific consensus" claim for more than two years. These sources flagrantly violate the purported standards for reliable sources on medical issues (WP:MEDRS), while peer-reviewed literature reviews — e.g. Domingo & Bordonaba 2011 — are disregarded. Yet Wikiproject Medicine, despite numerous red flags (ping User:Doc James ping User:SandyGeorgia) seems unwilling to act. The reluctance to change the "scientific consensus" statement undermines the credibility of WikiProject Medicine and of Wikipedia as a whole, and represents a serious ethical issue. groupuscule (talk) 00:15, 30 May 2015 (UTC)

Yes, Groupuscule. Science-based editors follow the science. It is apparently time to affirm the RfC we already had. Anew for each generation (and remnants of the old who cannot drop the stick....) Jytdog (talk) 00:59, 30 May 2015 (UTC)

Your RfC is unnecessarily confusing, and distracts from my main point here, and what seems to be one of the overall general points in this thread, which is the wall of citations. --Tsavage (talk) 03:51, 30 May 2015 (UTC)

So what are we expected to do here, just tell Jytdog how brilliant he is and how foolish we were to question the inclusion of the WHO citation? He has not made a serious attempt at discussing the issue with an open mind. He has not provided any quotation on that web page that is equivalent to the sentence it purports to substantiate, nor has he explained why he thinks the WHO FAQ lends support to the sentence (to say nothing about whether it does so without violating the synthesis rule). The onus is clearly on Jytdog to continue this discussion without insulting attempts at premature conclusion ("I suggest you drop the stick"). However, I am getting the sense that his intention was never to discuss this matter in good faith but, rather, to be able to claim that he did so. GrayDuck156 (talk) 15:59, 30 May 2015 (UTC)

RfC - "The scientific consensus holds that currently marketed GM food poses no greater risk than conventional food."

In 2013 we had an RfC, here, that upheld challenges to the scientific consensus statement below (presented with its full paragraph):

A broad scientific consensus holds that currently marketed GM food poses no greater risk than conventional food. No reports of ill effects have been documented in the human population. In 2012, the American Association for the Advancement of Science stated that "consuming foods containing ingredients derived from GM crops is no riskier than consuming the same foods containing ingredients from crop plants modified by conventional plant improvement techniques." The American Medical Association, the National Academies of Sciences and the Royal Society of Medicine have stated that no adverse human health effects related to GM food have been reported and/or substantiated in peer-reviewed literature to date.

References

That statement undergoes constant challenge, so it is perhaps time to review it again. The question: Do the sources support the content? Jytdog (talk) 01:01, 30 May 2015 (UTC)

Additional comment: A current issue is with the use of a large number of citations to support the summary/conclusion of "broad scientific consensus." If this is clearly stated in solid secondary sources, it should take one or two citations to establish, not a dozen or more. Citation overkill, conveying an impression of biased content, and synthesis of at least some of these sources (WP:RS/AC), are specific issues central to this RfC. --Tsavage (talk) 04:02, 30 May 2015 (UTC)

Survey

• Support This is a politically hot topic; and people are emotional about food. But the science is clear, and the sources support the content. No science has emerged since 2013 that changes the scientific consensus. Jytdog (talk) 01:08, 30 May 2015 (UTC)
• Support The broad scientific consensus about the safety of GM foods is clear. The consensus for the inclusion on the material of this stands. I was unable to find any major scientific evidence suggesting that this has changed since 2013. Instead I have found a 2015 Pew Research Center study that found that the percentage of AAAS scientists which agree that GM Foods are safe (88%) is even higher than the percentage that agree that humans are causing global warming (87%).[2] 88% of scientists is enough to establish a broad scientific consensus on top of the sources already provided. Winner 42 Talk to me! 01:54, 30 May 2015 (UTC)
  • If you believed that the sources supported the content, why did you feel the need to search for additional support? GrayDuck156 (talk) 16:25, 30 May 2015 (UTC)
• Support the discussion of GMOs covers a broad range of issues, but safety to human health isn't one of them, and the scientific consensus continues to hold that current marketed GMOs have no novel risks to human health.TypingAway (talk) 02:06, 30 May 2015 (UTC)
• Comment If it takes (by my count) 18 sources to support "broad scientific consensus," something is wrong. If we could reduce that to the best two or three, it should be relatively simple to determine if support is there. --Tsavage (talk) 04:19, 30 May 2015 (UTC)
• Question and comment Do any of these sources specifically say what WP is saying? If the phrase "broad scientific consensus" does not exist in any of the refs, we cannot use it per SYNTH and OR. If there is a strong source for this phrase, we can use just the one or two sources using it. No RfC can override these basic rules of WP. We don't get to summarize and come up with novel conclusions. Further, I wonder if anyone has done the work of investigating whether the sources used are what we would consider independent. petrarchan47คุก 04:33, 30 May 2015 (UTC)
• No Support via No scientific consensus on GMO safety: A broad community of independent scientific researchers and scholars challenges recent claims of a consensus over the safety of genetically modified organisms (GMOs). In the following joint statement, the claimed consensus is shown to be an artificial construct that has been falsely perpetuated through diverse fora. Irrespective of contradictory evidence in the refereed literature, as documented below, the claim that there is now a consensus on the safety of GMOs continues to be widely and often uncritically aired. There is no consensus, and WP cannot continue to air this claim. petrarchan47คุก 05:33, 30 May 2015 (UTC)

That source carries no weight against sources supplied in support of the overwhelming consensus that GM foods are just as safe as the genetically modified foods humans have been consuming for thousands of years. — ArtifexMayhem (talk) 07:08, 30 May 2015 (UTC)

I'm thinking you didn't read the source. And you are showing a lack of understanding about what genetically modified foods are. Hybridized foods have been around thousands of years, but GMOs were born in a lab in the 90's. The source above should be read with great care, as these 300 scientists and doctors have called out Wikipedia specifically in the document. See reference 16, and note their mentions of an "Internet website". This is a serious black eye for WP. petrarchan47คุก 08:44, 30 May 2015 (UTC)

Think what you will, the source remains worthless nonetheless. And no, it's not my lack of understanding that is showing. — ArtifexMayhem (talk) 12:18, 30 May 2015 (UTC)

• support sources support the content--Ozzie10aaaa (talk) 10:02, 30 May 2015 (UTC)
• Support: Sources seem to support the statement. Petrarchan's source merits consideration; however I'd like to see some more studies supporting it to dispel concerns about due weight. Plus, it seems to talk more about reliability concerns of the current research (which don't necessarily invalidate it) and less about the contested statement. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 10:27, 30 May 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose / not sure I have not followed this issue so do not know all of the context, nor do I know the sources so well, but I expect that "A broad scientific consensus holds that currently marketed GM food poses no greater risk than conventional food" is not an accurate reflection of the sources. What I would expect to see is a claim that ""A broad scientific consensus holds that currently marketed GM food poses no greater risk for an individual to eat than conventional food". I think the intention here is to focus on the safety of including GM food in an individual person's diet, and I think the scientific consensus is that there is no distinction between GM food and conventional food at the level of the individual. I do not recognize that level of scientific agreement concerning all other aspects of genetically modified food, including those listed at Genetically_modified_food_controversies#Environment which have nothing to do with its safety to eat. Blue Rasberry (talk) 10:48, 30 May 2015 (UTC)

Bluerasberry the statement is only meant to be about eating (e.g. the version of this in the lead of the GM food controversy article, says "While there is concern among the public that eating genetically modified food may be harmful, there is broad scientific consensus that food on the market derived from these crops poses no greater risk to human health than conventional food." I agree that this is a more clear statement. I do think the paragraph is very clear that it is about eating food, and not the many other issues that are controversial (e.g environment, market dynamics, etc). But is that why you are opposing, b/c the sentence is not explicit enough, that it is about eating GM food? thx Jytdog (talk) 11:25, 30 May 2015 (UTC)

Jytdog Yes, my opposition is only for the lack of clarity that the consensus is about safety as nutrition for individuals. I think there is not scientific consensus of the safety of GM food as a societal food source considering environmental impact and social issues. Blue Rasberry (talk) 11:45, 30 May 2015 (UTC)

OK,Bluerasberry (sorry to keep pinging you - if you are watching this page let me know and i will stop) - would you be OK with the statement above from the GM food controversy article? If so I will amend; that is reaasonable. I believe the "support" votes have been directed to the 'safe-to-eat' idea, as many of them said. Jytdog (talk) 13:10, 30 May 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose The WHO web page does not contain a statement that is equivalent to the sentence it purports to substantiate. Nor does it claim that any subset of GMO foods pose "no greater risk to human health than conventional food." — Preceding unsigned comment added by GrayDuck156 (talk • contribs) 16:18, 30 May 2015 (UTC)

Discussion

This article is not called 'Currently marketed GMO food', and the use of that or a similar qualifier in the lede reads as intentional obfuscation / misleading framing. Using similar construction makes possible absurd statements of fact such as 'All Agent Orange currently on the market poses no greater risk to human health than conventional food.'Dialectric (talk) 01:23, 30 May 2015 (UTC)

The UN's International Assessment of Agricultural Knowledge, Science and Technology for Development 2009 Global Report, which is used as a source in this article, says, "There are a limited number of properly designed and independently peer-reviewed studies on human health (Domingo, 2000; Pryme and Lembcke, 2003). Among the studies that have been published, some have provided evidence for potential undesirable effects (Pryme and Lembcke, 2003; Pusztai et al., 2003). Taken together, these observations create concern about the adequacy of testing methodologies for commercial GM plants fueling public skepticism and the possibility of lawsuits." (p. 394)[3] Can anyone explain why its conclusions differ from those presented above? TFD (talk) 02:25, 30 May 2015 (UTC)

You realize these are really too old under WP:MEDRS? If this is used as a reference it should perhaps be replaced. Principal sources from 2000 and 2003 are surely too old, and there must have been a wealth of studies since. Johnbod (talk) 03:44, 30 May 2015 (UTC)

If you are claiming that a report from 2009 is "too" old, then do you agree that all of the sources with dates of 2009 listed above to support the "scientific consensus" should be stricken? If you are using WP:MEDRS to measure the quality of the statement, do you agree that the AAAS and AMA statements should be removed as potential sources, because these are not studies but political positions taken by their respective Board of Directors? If not, do you agree that other reliable sources that are not peer reviewed studies (or reviews) that are from entities such as Food & Water Watch, Greenpeace, [http://www.ensser.org/increasing-public-information/no-scientific-consensus-on-gmo-safety/ ENSSR} and similar organizations who are not GMO cheerleaders should have some say on this or any other statement about GMO's? Or are only those who support and defend GMO's allowed a voice in the reporting of GMO's? David Tornheim (talk) 05:06, 30 May 2015 (UTC)

If 2009 is the cut-off, then there should not be sources presented before then. And you still need to explain why what the UN said six years ago is no longer valid. For example, a source should say, "until six years ago, the science on GMO was unsettled, but scientific consensus was reached in 2010." The UN source is so authoritative, that you need a source that specifically addresses why it is wrong. TFD (talk) 07:20, 30 May 2015 (UTC)

TFD, responding to you above and to your follow up on my Talk page. Here is the picture as far as I understand it from the literature.

• there is the scientific consensus which is that currently marketed GM food is as safe as conventional food and sees no credible mechanism how currently marketed GM food even could be harmful. Standing on that spot, are most scientists, pretty much every regulatory agency, most farmers (who have adopted the technology), and the companies that make and sell the products. In this perspective, there is a keen awareness that it would be very possible to make GM food that could be harmful, but we are reasonably aware of the risks and the tests we have are good enough to weed out products that would be harmful (although better analytical tools are always wanted and welcome)
• Way over yonder you have some scientists, a huge and vocal online community, some advocacy organizations, and some members of the organics industry, that make wildly exaggerated claims about dangers of GM food, promote crazy mechanisms for toxicity (like "electron microscope organisms" somehow created by genetic modification process) and who almost never make a distinction between currently marketed GM food and any possible GM food product (e.g. who point up the dangers of allergens being introduced into the food supply - but that is a risk that is known and managed in the RW product development process and currently marketed GM foods do not appear to have any special allergenicity)
• You have a very few credible scientists - like Domingo - who take the view that while currently marketed GM food is ~probably~ OK, there are questions that need answering and we probably went too fast in disseminating the technology. There is a paragraph on his work in the GM controversies article (just search for "Domingo")
• In WP terminology, in my view, the first position is the mainstream that we present in WP's voice, the 2nd is FRINGE pseudoscience (sometimes just bad science), and the 3rd is, I think, a "significant minority voice". That is my own analysis. I made a proposal a while back on the Talk page of the GM Food controversies to discuss working this into the article but it didn't get much traction.
• With regard to the age of sources... GM food has been on the market now almost twenty years. There is no real debate in the mainstream scientific community about the technology or the relative safety of food, and there has been no good science done to raise any questions, since forever. The analogy aspartame, not, say questions about the PPAR inhibition (e.g thiazolidinediones) - see this pubmed search - plenty of recent reviews). So the relative safety of GM food is not a question that gets raised a lot in the scientific literature and the sources about the consensus are indeed older. Probably the most interesting scientific question out there, is "what would be the results of a credible, very long term feeding study?" There is a group called The Grace Project funded by the EU that has been running a project to plan and execute such a study. I hope they do run that. Jytdog (talk) 11:20, 30 May 2015 (UTC)

I think this RfC is, to a large extent, inappropriate because a good-faith attempt at resolving the dispute about the WHO citation has not yet occurred. According to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Dispute_resolution, "Requests for Comment generally require that at least an effort be made to discuss the matter in question before making the request." Comments like "I suggest you drop the stick" do not pass for attempts at productive discussion.GrayDuck156 (talk) 15:08, 30 May 2015 (UTC)

These points might be slightly off-topic but I think might be useful for seeking a compromise. I have several concerns with the wording of the statement. First, the term "broad scientific consensus" seems unnecessarily ambiguous and subjective. The word "consensus" can mean anything from majority agreement to unanimity of opinion. Why not use a word that is not subject to multiple interpretations? The word "scientific" raises the question of whose opinion counts, which is a subjective determination. The word "broad" also has no precise, or even clear, meaning. Second, starting the sentence with the words "There is..." seems clumsy and obscures the subject of the sentence. GrayDuck156 (talk) 16:47, 30 May 2015 (UTC)

Jytdog, thanks for replying. The most recent review cited in the UN report was Pryme and Lembcke, 2003. I suppose what they said was accurate - few studies had been made, but since then the there have been lots of studies. The EU report for example reviews studies from to the period 2001-2010.

One of the studies mentioned in the UN report was Domingo 2000. Domingo published a review study in 2011 in Environment International, which says there is a balance between reports claiming currently consumed GMO foods are safe and those saying they are not.[4] His report shows 119 cites in Google scholar.[5]

Also, per MEDRS guidelines, some of the sources for the wording should be removed. For example, the Washington Post article does not meet MEDRS.

TFD (talk) 16:57, 30 May 2015 (UTC)

Notices

Notices posted in the following places:

• Talk:Genetically_modified_food_controversies#RfC_on_consensus_statement_of_relative_safety_of_currently_marketed_GM_food
• Talk:Genetically_modified_crops#RfC_on_consensus_statement_of_relative_safety_of_currently_marketed_GM_food
• Talk:Genetic_engineering#RfC_on_consensus_statement_of_relative_safety_of_currently_marketed_GM_food
• Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Medicine#RfC_on_consensus_statement_of_relative_safety_of_currently_marketed_GM_food
• Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Food_and_drink#RfC_on_consensus_statement_of_relative_safety_of_currently_marketed_GM_food
• User_talk:Jimbo_Wales#RfC_on_consensus_statement_of_relative_safety_of_currently_marketed_GM_food
• WP:No_original_research/Noticeboard#RfC_on_consensus_statement_of_relative_safety_of_currently_marketed_GM_food since issues of WP:SYN were raised
• WP:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard#RfC_on_consensus_statement_of_relative_safety_of_currently_marketed_GM_food