Wikipedia talk:What Wikipedia is not

Topic: Galleries (November 2005–January 2006) Topic: Newspaper Articles (May–July 2007) Topic: Unencyclopedic (2003) Topic: Trivia (July–October 2007)

Clarification on WP:NOTADVERT

Is a link to an iTunes page in violation of WP:NOTADVERT? I think it is, @RedJulianG40: thinks it is fine. The article in question is Bantams Banter but this obviously affects other articles. Further input welcome. GiantSnowman 18:21, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

I've removed the iTunes link, there is already a link to their "official website". While spam like this is obviously related to WP:NOTADVERT it's usually taken care of via WP:SPAM and the related project, who know where to draw fine distinctions and follow usual practice. I'll suggest taking it up there if there is any further discussion.

At the same time, I have to say that many folks around here seem to have very, very loose definitions of "advertising." An ad almost seems to have to be of Super Bowl proportions to qualify as being an ad to some. "Advertising" is just an old-fashioned word for "publicizing" and so almost anything that a firm or its employees could do on Wikipedia regarding the firm or its products should be considered advertising. Of course the more modern use of the term concerns commercial advertising, but it is the same basic principle.

Consider a handwritten sign posted on a fencepost "Hay for sale. Inquire at McDonald's farm". That is an ad. If it was placed in a newspaper, it would be a classified advertisement. If it was blown up and pasted on the side of a barn (or on a special board), it would be a billboard advertisement. If it was put in our article on Hay, it would be an advertisement.

While the concept of advertisement is quite simple, I'm wondering whether we need to put in a definition. My definition would be "any information placed in an article by a business or its employees that would tend to increase its sales or otherwise benefit the business." Smallbones_(smalltalk) 19:46, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

I don’t think it violates NOTADVERT per se, but it definitely seems inappropriate for a reference work to include external links to retailers, in general. That should probably be mentioned in that section (and then it would be a violation). —174.141.182.82 (talk) 22:52, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

To a lesser extent, we also shouldn’t (selectively) link to aggregators/directories, such as iTunes, Stitcher, Podbay, etc. pages for a podcast. —174.141.182.82 (talk) 23:14, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

What travel links are appropriate?

Is there somewhere, a help page or a forum, where I can go to clarify Wikipedia is not a guidebook? Or can this page be revised to clarify this? Place articles often have external links to the following:

Official (i.e. run by a government) tourist pages. Private firms tourist pages (though sometimes misleadingly called "official".) Often these are guide pages offering free information but with many ads. Personal photo blogs. Links to other travel guide pages. "Sister links" to Wikitravel.

And there are others.

Are there any generally accepted rules about what sort of travel links are acceptable? If so, where are they? Thanks for any enlightenment.

(Personally I think government tourist links would be acceptable, if they really are government ones, and no other travel/tourist external links should be given.) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Littlewindow (talk • contribs) 15:51, 21 June 2015 (UTC)

WP:EL gives the basic guidelines. Travel links are promotional by nature, so rarely appropriate as links or references. --Ronz (talk) 17:12, 21 June 2015 (UTC)

Thanks, I'm going to assume all the links of the types I mentioned are inappropriate, except maybe links to official government tourist sites. I won't delete the latter myself, but I won't complain if anyone else does it.Littlewindow (talk) 00:26, 22 June 2015 (UTC)

Thinking about this some more, I'd like to argue that there should be a stricter policy on this. After all, no mainstream print encyclopedia (that I recall seeing) ever gives tourist/travel information or references to such information, so why should Wikipedia? Allowing such links just opens the door to irrelevant links, personal travel or photo blogs, open spam, or disguised spam (many destination guides on the internet claiming to be "offficial" in fact are put up by private companies, not government agencies.) What would people think of a policy that travel information links simply don't belong in place articles? Littlewindow (talk) 17:09, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

When to censor some material...

I am familiar with this rule of not being allowed here to censor relevant-to-the-topic material, but what about material (such as that in quotes) which are irrelevant for the topic? Gamingforfun365 (talk) 20:37, 25 June 2015 (UTC)

Editing, which normally includes the removal of some material, is not the same as censorship. A quick and dirty definition of censorship might be "the removal of material for idealogical reasons." Hope this helps. Smallbones_(smalltalk) 14:11, 26 June 2015 (UTC)

Agreed, removal of info that is irrelevant is not crensosphip. A look at the crensosphip article will help get a better idea of what is considered censorship.--64.229.165.154 (talk) 00:32, 2 July 2015 (UTC)

If we incompletely quoted someone as saying “That’s pretty ****ed up,” that would be an example of censorship. Same if we chose to omit the quote entirely rather than include explicit language. But if the source’s opinion on fucked-upness is not germane, or if it’s more eloquently stated elsewhere—if there’s no reason to include it in the article—that’s not censorship. Hope that helps. —67.14.236.50 (talk) 11:30, 5 July 2015 (UTC)

Oh, and unless the cited source censored a word like in my example here, we shouldn’t censor it either. If we use a quote, we keep it intact. —67.14.236.50 (talk) 02:56, 7 July 2015 (UTC)

The use of quotations instead of descriptive text is a style problem anyway, regardless of the presence or not of dirty words. --Cambalachero (talk) 13:09, 7 July 2015 (UTC)

Propaganda

The page Wikipedia:Propaganda used to be a redirect to Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not#Wikipedia is not a soapbox or means of promotion. I have took it to write an essay about the way that propaganda sources may conflict with the policies of verifiability and neutral point of view (note that we already have Wikipedia:Advocacy to point the problems of trying to use wikipedia itself to generate propaganda). As it is not among the listed shortcuts, and has few pages linking to it, I thought that there shouldn't be a problem; but I'm informing about it anyway, just in case. Cambalachero (talk) 13:14, 26 June 2015 (UTC)

@Cambalachero: I propose that the essay be moved (to restore the shortcut) and made to {{supplement}} this policy—the bit about propaganda under SOAP could include a link to it. —67.14.236.50 (talk) 11:42, 5 July 2015 (UTC)

I added {{supplement}} to that essay, so could we link to WP:Propaganda somewhere in WP:SOAP? Later I’ll try an RM if the RFC there gets no action —67.14.236.50 (talk) 20:22, 19 July 2015 (UTC)

Per responses at Wikipedia talk:Propaganda, never mind. —67.14.236.50 (talk) 04:54, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

Expanding NOTPLOT

There's currently a (mildly contentious and frequently debated) rule under "Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information" that prohibits "Summary-only descriptions of works." I think this should be clearer that it refers not only to plot summaries, but also to articles that solely describe or summarise the fictional universe of a novel (e.g. places, people, science-fiction concepts and inventions, and other fictional background information).

The rationale is that if these materials are not discussed in third-party sources, then they're not notable and therefore don't belong in Wikipedia; additionally such articles frequently contain elements of original research, to offer theories and interpretations, and to fill in gaps, which also doesn't belong here.

The basic wording is OK, but should add something like "This applies to articles which merely describe the novel's world, including plot, settings, characters, and concepts, based entirely or largely on primary or in-universe sources."

Apologies if this has been discussed and rejected before, but while I could see a lot of debate on other aspects of this rule, I didn't see anything making this suggestion. Colapeninsula (talk) 11:36, 22 July 2015 (UTC)

• support not sure exactly how it should be worded, but clarity would help. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 11:42, 22 July 2015 (UTC)
• Support per PLOT, WP:FICTION, WP:UNDUE, etc. This should also apply to descriptions of nonfictional works. —67.14.236.50 (talk) 17:14, 24 July 2015 (UTC)
• Support Though we should be careful that things like lists of characters which may only be sourced to the work itself are generally acceptable as long as they are terse on each character/entry. Long rambling descriptions and fictional bios of a character without third-party sources definitely fall afoul of NOT#PLOT. --MASEM (t) 17:45, 24 July 2015 (UTC)
  • Or when we have no other content about the work. If a reasonably sized article devoted to plot or characters is spun off from a huge article about the work itself, that’s fine. —67.14.236.50 (talk) 07:57, 25 July 2015 (UTC)
    • YEah, the lists I'm talking about are really only appropriate if the work is long, likely serialized (tv show or such), and already well sourced and lengthy that the character list cannot fit comfortably in the main article on the work. --MASEM (t) 14:17, 25 July 2015 (UTC)
• Comment: The "and therefore don't belong in Wikipedia" part is not entirely true. We discuss non-WP:Notable aspects in articles about fiction. In other words, not all of it is WP:Notable. And a WP:Reliable source noting or discussing something doesn't mean it's WP:Notable. The point is that the Wikipedia article should pass the WP:Notability guideline, and we shouldn't be giving WP:Undue weight to any aspect, including plot detail. That stated, I've seen editors create WP:Spinout articles just to split off character/plot detail when it doesn't seem that the character/plot detail needs its own Wikipedia article. Not every show needs a List of characters article, for example. Also, with this, this, this, this and this edit, I alerted WP:Film and WP:TV editors to this discussion. Flyer22 (talk) 08:54, 25 July 2015 (UTC)
• Support. It probably won't stem the tide of plot-only articles on science fiction topics, but who knows. I don't think that novels should be singled out. The problem exists for every form of media. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 09:51, 25 July 2015 (UTC)

Speaking of books, I also alerted WP:WikiProject Novels and WP:WikiProject Books...here and here. Flyer22 (talk) 12:18, 25 July 2015 (UTC)

• Support, as per reasons already stated above, but do agree with the cautions raised by Masem and Flyer22 Onel5969 ^{TT me} 12:36, 25 July 2015 (UTC)
• I agree with Masem on the need to be careful. A clarification of the section (not expansion, as it already covers discussing a work's content without context at any article) should not have the effect to remove valid list articles. Lists like List of female detective characters or List of DC Comics characters named Batman may not be perfect, but they can become the basis of articles like Bond girls if they're allowed to grow; there should not be a policy that mandates deleting them. Diego (talk) 15:39, 25 July 2015 (UTC)
• My inclination is that WP:WAF in combination with the current WP:NOTPLOT already handle this quite nicely. --Izno (talk) 15:42, 25 July 2015 (UTC)
• Support, BUT I would remove "or largely" from the last sentence. Articles based "entirely on" primary sources is what WP:NOTPLOT forbids. The word "largely" is subject to interpretation and thus dilutes the effectiveness of the policy. -- Wikipedical (talk) 19:22, 25 July 2015 (UTC)
• From WP:RS, primary sources are the best ones for the polot of a work; most secondary sources are much less reliable for this. DGG ( talk ) 18:09, 11 August 2015 (UTC)`

When are defunct products exempt from NOPRICES?

I understand why NOPRICES exists in relation to products that are still being sold, but what about products that are long defunct?

This question was inspired by this edit (ignore the unrelated WP:OVERLINK removal). The content in question was uncited, and so I agree with the removal, but what if sources had been provided? Generally, is leniency allowed in cases where many reliable sources note that a price is unusually high or low? (Perhaps I Am Rich is a relevant example on the high side.) --SoledadKabocha (talk) 04:03, 25 July 2015 (UTC)

To clarify: I am not claiming that NOPRICES necessarily applies only to products still being sold. I just want to ask whether any specific exceptions to it should be mentioned and whether active/defunct status is at all relevant. --SoledadKabocha (talk) 05:49, 25 July 2015 (UTC)

NOPRICES should apply to any product, present or past. Unless the price is of interest (for example a product going defunct due to a high price) the price shouldn't be mentioned. --MASEM (t) 05:56, 25 July 2015 (UTC)

To my mind, there is never any reason to give any actual prices. But if reliable sources remark that a price is unusually high or low, we can (and potentially should) say the same—not say what the price is, because that’s not the point and is potentially meaningless, but repeat the independent analysis of the price. —67.14.236.50 (talk) 07:53, 25 July 2015 (UTC)

NOPRICES is not a prohibition to list prices - and should not be considered as one, just a reminder to do so with due weight, and advice against using Wikipedia articles as price comparison lists that could be exploited as advertising by sellers. Usually it's best to just explain the price range of the product with respect to others in the makret (mid-range, high-end, entry-level...) - but when reliable sources note how the price is relevant to the product in a way other than routine mentions (the "justified reason for the mention" part of the policy), it's OK to include it in a section discussing it.

The price is specially interesting for compilations like the one in the example (provided it could be sourced) as the price per game is one of their selling points. Action 52 includes the price in such way, and Caltron 6 in 1 mentions its resale valuation; those uses are not against NOPRICES. Diego (talk) 14:27, 25 July 2015 (UTC)

Ok, so admittedly I kind of answered my own question by giving I Am Rich as an example, and I agree with the ones given by Diego Moya. The implication is that no changes to the wording are needed because common sense/IAR are sufficient to handle any exceptions, and so the section title was a bit misleading.

However, shortly after writing the above, I noticed that the article section I Am Rich#Similar applications might be problematic, as those apps are not as noteworthy (in the intuitive sense, not any formal Wikipedia definition) as I Am Rich itself. A strict reading of NOPRICES would suggest only stating that each app is priced the maximum allowed for its store, without stating what each maximum is. That might be a discussion for that article's talk page though; mind if I take it there? --SoledadKabocha (talk) 17:41, 25 July 2015 (UTC)

NOPRICES is only against listing WP:Run of the mill prices; that's not the case for the I Am Rich#Similar applications, where there's a reason to mention the price - namely, that each app is priced the maximum allowed for its store. Given that the article mentions such reason, there are no grounds not to also say what the exact price is. Again, there's nothing in NOPRICES against writing the number when it's somehow relevant to the article, only against doing it routinely for every product. The goal should not be to hide information from the reader as much as it's avoiding that vendors abuse Wikipedia as a sales resource. Diego (talk) 22:37, 25 July 2015 (UTC)

NOTCHANGELOG

Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Xbox One system software has been relisted for more input. There is some discussion about how NOTCHANGELOG is unevenly enforced across the encyclopedia. – czar 01:41, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

Are wikipolicies eternal or not? As I've seen some pages where an essay has been turned into wiki-guidance, anyhow if it's possible I'd like to suggest NOTCHANGELOG to only cover non notable software, it's not important to have a changelog for the likes of minority software like Ubuntu while it is quite notable and often discussed when it concerns Android.

--58.187.228.171 (talk) 01:28, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

Consensus can change. It is reasonable to cover the most important software in more detail. "important" can reflect other things than numbers of udrtd, such as people concerned with the details from an encyclopedic POV, and especially with respect to substantial reliable sources. DGG ( talk ) 07:48, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

58.187.228.171: To get policy changed, an WP:RFC is normally necessary. This may be held either here or at WP:VPP, but whereever it is held, there should be a message posted to the other one informing people of the existence of the new RfC, and directing them to it. --Redrose64 (talk) 08:39, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

Why shouldn't it be an indiscriminate collection of information?

Setting aside technical issues like server space and similar, what other reasons would there be to not include all known verifiable info? 68.156.95.34 (talk) 07:02, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

For one thing, it would be a complete mess. An article could be about anything at all, going off on tangents not even remotely related to the supposed subject, or listing pages and pages of completely inconsequential data, as long as a source could be cited. How would that be helpful to a reader researching that subject?

To put it simply: Encyclopedias are not indiscriminate. We are making an encyclopedia. —67.14.236.50 (talk) 04:39, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

I second 67.14.236.50's points. --Rubbish computer 11:01, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

Then maybe we shouldn't be making an encyclopedia. And as far as I'm concerned, no data is inconsequential. If it's cited, they can find the source themselves, just like now. 68.156.95.34 (talk) 00:35, 12 August 2015 (UTC)

If we didn’t want to make an encyclopedia, we wouldn’t be editing Wikipedia. You are absolutely free to create a wiki to serve as a repository of all possible information about everything, if you wish; you can load the MediaWiki software on your own server, or you can use a site like Wikia (not sure if that site imposes limitations), or you can join such a project that someone else may have started. I can’t imagine the space requirements for something like that, but good luck! —67.14.236.50 (talk) 03:24, 12 August 2015 (UTC)

RfC: Should we add a footnote to WP:NOTHOWTO/WP:NOTFAQ stating that it does not apply to redirects?

The following discussion is an archived record of a request for comment. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

Consensus is against making an exception for redirects. Esquivalience ^t 04:45, 23 August 2015 (UTC)

---

Over the past week, there have been around 100 nominations at Redirects for Discussion that apply WP:NOTHOWTO/WP:NOTFAQ very broadly to mean that redirects in the form of "How to ______" or in the form of a question are subject to deletion based primarily on the fact that the term used for the redirect represents a search for a "how to" or question. I propose that the NOTHOWTO and NOTFAQ sections be altered to contain a footnote that reads as follows:

"The how-to and FAQ restrictions apply only to the text in articles themselves. In particular, plausible search terms formatted as a how-to or FAQ may be appropriate redirects, provided that they meet all other policies and guidelines."

Do you support the above clarification of the policy? ~ Rob^Talk 00:34, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

• "Do you support the above clarification of the policy?" "Clarification" isn't really a good way to put it, "change" would be more fitting. As the policy stands, it applies generally to "Wikipedia" (as a whole), not just certain places within it. I suppose if you see the current state of those parts of the policy you mentioned as unclear or ambiguous, I can understand that wording. I don't view it that way.—Godsy^(TALK_CONT) 05:58, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

• The text of NOTHOWTO/NOTFAQ is proceeded by "Wikipedia articles should not read like:", which I interpret to mean that the policy only applies to articles. This was the rationale for my wording. ~ Rob^Talk 02:13, 9 August 2015 (UTC)

• I guess it depends on how you view a redirect, and I've expressed my opinion on that below, no need for me to reiterate it here. Respectfully,—Godsy^(TALK_CONT) 06:09, 9 August 2015 (UTC)

Support

1. Support as proposer. I think it is clear that NOTHOWTO and NOTFAQ were intended to apply to article content, not plausible search terms. Removing plausible search terms due to these policies makes it harder to navigate the wiki and achieve our goal of connecting anyone to the information they're seeking. ~ Rob^Talk 00:36, 8 August 2015 (UTC)
2. Support in the general sense - in that hard-nose application of NOTHOWTO can be a problem outside of prose, but I do think that some of these where the redirects are trying to play the semantic web idea, are not necessary - otherwise the possibilities could be endless. Some might be appropriate, like "Who shot JR?" is a valid phrase from the Dallas TV show, not enough for its own article, but things like "How noise pollution affect our health" is not really a likely search term in the scope of WP's purpose. Let Google handle the semantic web algorithms. --MASEM (t) 01:44, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

   We should probably avoid discussion of specific ongoing discussions due to concerns of WP:CANVASSing. In cases like you described, though, our other policies, guidelines, and general consensuses can be weighed to decide. Implausible redirects do not need this policy to support a deletion. ~ Rob^Talk 03:52, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

3. Qualified support. In general I support the concept that a redirect page need not conform to the WP:NOTHOWTO rules, but I have a nervousness that the concept of a how to might creep into the articles redirected to, or into sections of them. My qualified support is that we need, somehow, and ideally on that redirect, to make it clear that the page redirected to is not intended nor expected to be a hot to guide. I realise that Joe User never sees that, but Freda Editor does, and it is to Freda Editor that this is to be addressed. Fiddle Faddle 15:48, 11 August 2015 (UTC)
4. strong support. While not every FAQ-style or How-to style title will make a good redirect, many will and each must be evaluated on their own merits. There should not be any general statement that they are good or bad. Thryduulf (talk) 15:55, 16 August 2015 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Weak oppose Readers entering FAQ-like search terms in the search box may be looking for FAQ-like content in articles, and thus, they will not find that content and might spend a long time searching what they are looking for, by the way, I never search for something in the for of an FAQ on Google because it is a waste of time and no major difference than just entering major search terms. - TheChampionMan1234 04:29, 8 August 2015 (UTC)
2. Oppose the FAQ-like redirects also violate the spirit of WP:NOTFAQ, since if Wikipedia is not a FAQ repository, why does it answer FAQ questions? What purpose do FAQ-question-redirects serve if not to provide links to answers for FAQs? Having found that these exist can encourage the proliferation of FAQ-like question redirects for all the various forms that such questions may be phrased, and to the limits of vagueness, thus establishing WP:SYSTEMATICBIAS when answering FAQ questions, since "Who is the president" redirecting to Obama is obviously highly biased, as Xi Jinping is president (or Robert Mugabe, etc). And any that are temporally related (such as "who is president") would also need to be tracked and changed every time it changed, presenting an large workload to keep these things up to date for no perceptible advantage. -- 67.70.32.190 (talk) 04:51, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

   WP:RECENTISM applies to all content, including redirects. Regardless of the result of this RfC, the redirects you described are not supported by existing policies and guidelines. ~ Rob^Talk 05:12, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

   That was an example. RECENTISM doesn't apply to what led to civil war, which is what you voted to keep, even though it pointed to the American Civil War, and not say, the English Civil War, or Chinese Civil War, the thing in Ukraine, the thing in Iraq, etc. As I said, these come in a myriad of forms, having no set way of phrasing such questions, and would lead to a build-up of systematic bias, such as favoring US topics like the American Civil War. -- 67.70.32.190 (talk) 13:59, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

3. Oppose. Any statement on Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not applies to Wikipedia as a whole. The entire page can be interpreted any way any editor chooses to interpret it, and telling editors that certain parts only apply to certain parts or aspects of Wikipedia is a combination of unnecessary bureaucracy and instruction creep. If someone doesn't agree with a bold action another editor may take due to the other editor not agreeing with another editor's interpretation of any guideline on the Wikipedia namespace, they can revert and discuss. This applies here too. Steel1943 (talk) 05:03, 8 August 2015 (UTC)
4. Strong Oppose The most basic definition of a redirect is an alternative title for an article (See WP:RPURPOSE for more). A lot of "how"s, "why"s, "where"s, etc., which now have a rationale for deletion with WP:WWIN, would not if this proposal were to pass. We don't need to phrase redirects in this manner: the search engine makes it unnecessary, and they are not proper for an encyclopedia. They do not help but hinder: drifting through countless redirects during a search only to end up at the same target is pointless. Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not applies to the whole of Wikipedia, why should it be any different for redirects?—Godsy^(TALK_CONT) 05:45, 8 August 2015 (UTC)
5. Oppose per the TheChampionMan, 67.70.32.190, Steel1943 and Godsy above. Instruction creep is rarely advisable, and making an exception to WP:NOT which could lead to a proliferation of redirects which give a misleading impression of how Wikipedia is structured seems a particularly bad idea. AndyTheGrump (talk) 05:48, 8 August 2015 (UTC)
6. Oppose. This isn't a policy issue; however, I would support clarification in appropriate guidelines, which would have to include those RfD nominations that are not actually questions nor phrased as "how-to". Many of what amount to good search terms that are not questions nor how-to phrased are being nominated as "QA" and "FAQ" that are neither, and yet editors keep blindly !voting "delete" without even questioning this. The babies are going out with the bathwater. – Paine  10:05, 8 August 2015 (UTC)
7. Oppose Strong Oppose as What Wikipedia is Not applies to the encyclopedia as a whole. Redirects such as these give the misleading impression that Wikipedia is a FAQ where questions are typed in and answers are given, rather than an encyclopedia where a name is typed in for an article on the subject. --Rubbish computer 10:59, 8 August 2015 (UTC)
8. Oppose carving out exceptions to the policy, per comments above, ChampionMan in particular, and I agree that this RfC as written is not a policy issue. I am interested in whether or not project-wide consensus supports these redirects, and this is a fine place to have the discussion, but the most we should take out of this is maybe adding a section to WP:RFDOUTCOMES, not a matter of changing policies. Ivanvector 🍁 (talk) 14:51, 8 August 2015 (UTC)
9. Oppose. People asking FAQ questions will be looking for FAQ answers, and they won't find them on Wikipedia. This would cause substantial confusion, when the whole purpose having redirects is to minimize it. Compassionate727 (talk) 15:53, 8 August 2015 (UTC)
10. Oppose. The way to search on an encylopaedia is to search for WP:NOUNs. If anything, all these "What is" redirects should go to the WP:REFDESK. The "What is" or "How to" and so on are redundant: if you want to know what is a cat, you search for cat, not what is a cat or what is a cat?. Those in support are putting extra work at the gnomes like me at WP:RFD to sort it out, with no fruition, were this proposal to be accepted. It makes it worse also for searching stuff, WP:RHARMFUL if people get a WP:SURPRISE if they end up at the "wrong" topic. (See the ongoing discussion at RfD for What is a Jew?, for example: where I've suggested a retarget either to Jew or Judaism, which are distinct topics.) Si Trew (talk) 07:20, 10 August 2015 (UTC)
11. Oppose. It's "What Wikipedia is not" ... not "What Wikipedia articles are not". The policy applies to redirects just the same precisely because we're not any of those things. We don't create redirects that are dictionary definitions per WP:NOT#DIC, redirects that are lyrics per WP:NOTLYRICS, and I've seen redirects deleted per WP:NOTGUIDE, WP:NOTPRICE, WP:NOTPROMO, WP:NOTWIKIA, etc. It's best to discuss redirects individually at RFD, where people can discuss each individually, instead of instruction creep because WP:NOTFAQ specifically discusses articles (as it should, because that's more important to this policy). -- Tavix ^(talk) 17:33, 10 August 2015 (UTC)

Discussion

How have those nominations turned out? If they’ve passed consensus, I’d argue that NOTHOWTO and NOTFAQ should be altered to reflect that consensus rather than to deter it. That’s what our policy pages do. I could only support this proposal if they’ve been roundly rejected. —67.14.236.50 (talk) 04:45, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

The redirects are generally being deleted, having established RfD precedent for deletion along these lines -- 67.70.32.190 (talk) 04:51, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

The problem with discussions at RfD is that they typically involve very few editors compared to the amount of people editing Wikipedia. That's more-or-less the purpose of this RfC: to determine what the general consensus of the project is on whether all redirects based as a question should be universally deleted or not. I'm trying to avoid a local consensus on how to interpret this policy from overriding what I perceive to be a larger community take on the issue, although it remains to be seen whether I'm right on what the community thinks about these. I should note that the current text of the policy already states that "Wikipedia articles should not read like:", implying that it was only ever intended to apply to articles. It does not say "all content". It's my position that the RfDs have been a misapplication of existing policy, and this footnote is to clarify existing policy, not make new policy. ~ Rob^Talk 05:11, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

I take it you’ve advertised this discussion at someplace like WP:VPP then? If not, please consider it; that’s a very commonly suggested way to help determine project-wide consensus on a policy issue. —67.14.236.50 (talk) 05:36, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

I have advertised the discussion at WP:VPP ([1]) and 67.70 has advertised it at WT:RFD ([2]). Ivanvector 🍁 (talk) 14:36, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

This is getting snowy, and as the proposer, I would not oppose a close as such. ~ Rob^Talk 02:14, 9 August 2015 (UTC)

Thank you for it. User:TheChampionMan1234 made me aware of it. Does seem to be WP:SNOWBALLing. Si Trew (talk) 07:23, 10 August 2015 (UTC)

---

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

@Esquivalience: After re-reading through this, it seems that at least 9/11 of the opposition not only oppose the suggested change, but hold the opinion that WP:NOT applies to Wikipedia as a whole. Though this wasn't directly the question being asked in the RfC: Do you think a slight alteration (changing "article" to "the encyclopedia" or "Wikipedia") of the text preceding the bullets of WP:NOTFAQ and WP:NOTDICT and maybe a couple others would reflect the consensus here?—Godsy^(TALK_CONT) 21:40, 24 August 2015 (UTC)

Does WP:NOT apply to redirects?

Boldly moved to WT:RFD#Does WP:NOT apply to redirects? Si Trew (talk)

WP:NOTCHANGELOG Redux

Some more eyes on this discussion would be welcome.

It seems to me that both the spirit and the letter of WP:NOTCHANGELOG are being selectively disregarded in some of the comments, to the point where "I find it useful" appears to be trumping "Use reliable third-party (not self-published or official) sources in articles dealing with software updates to describe the versions listed or discussed in the article."

WP:NOTCHANGELOG no longer discourages tables, but it clearly still prohibits dumping a list of changes/releases whose primary (and often only) source is... the project's changelog.

chocolateboy (talk) 02:09, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

My only problem with WP:NOTCHANGELOG is that everyone is abusing "the rule" to delete any well sourced well reported on and notable changelogs with plenty of neutral 3rd party coverage claiming that all changelogs are unencyclopedic. I haven't heard the "useful" argument as often as I have heard the anti-changelogs (in general) arguments.

--Hoang the Hoangest (talk) 01:34, 10 August 2015 (UTC)

I think WP:CHANGELOG would benefit from a clarification inspired in the best parts of WP:Source list and WP:Stand-alone lists, of which changelog articles are a subset. A sentence or two encouraging editors to define selection criteria for the entries and a reminder on how to maintain WP:DUE WEIGHT should focus any discussion regarding changelogs, over the currently found "they belong/they don't belong" division. Diego (talk) 09:23, 10 August 2015 (UTC)

WP:PROSELINE is also a good essay to think about here, its the same problem as applied to an ongoing event. Listing major changes in software is completely reasonable, it's the fine details that may only be of significant interest to developers and power users that we should be drawing the line at. --MASEM (t) 14:19, 10 August 2015 (UTC)

If those fine details of interest to developers and power users are covered by multiple specialized third party sources, we should be fine with including them (possibly as a WP:SPLITted article, or a separate independent section if there's not enough material for a whole article). For example, every new release of Android, Windows Phone or iOS gets inordinary amounts of detailed coverage of every minor change to their user interfaces and available functions, so we could cover them with support from multiple sources.

It's the lack of independent coverage which makes some details count as unnecessary detail, not their technical nature - Wikipedia covers material of highly technical nature, it just needs to be well organized so that the general content comes first, and the technical jargon is explained. Diego (talk) 17:36, 10 August 2015 (UTC)

Sometimes highly technical aspects may be of note, but at the same time, there are also other resources for that; we should not be compelled to include every listed changelog element just because it was mentioned in another source. As an example of a failure of NOT#CHANGELOG, IOS version history lists every little tiny detail that Apple probably published as the major changes in every single minor revision. We should not be documenting to that level. Listing the dates of the minor change releases make sense, but the changes that have occurred should be documented at a much higher level than what this list presently does. And because Apple is good in this fashion, if necessary, the table can include a link to Apple's own website with the details of the changelog. The level of detail for this list is inappropriate under WP:IINFO. --MASEM (t) 18:41, 10 August 2015 (UTC)

That's what I'm getting at. The strength of your argument does not lie in "IINFO says so" but on the "should be documented at a much higher level" - but merely because there are no third party sources covering that level; if they were, then the more detailed level would be adequate, not indiscriminate - same as with PLOT, LYRICS and STATISTICS, which get relevant when they get critical analysis at independent RSs. IINFO sets a general direction to follow, but doesn't provide any practical advice on how to define what is "indiscriminate"; that is left to the opinion of editors participating in each particular case. This implies that, when a different group of editors , they will get widely different results from the same guideline, turning every WP:NOT debate into a childish do not/do too. At least the criteria set up at WP:WEIGHT provide some objective standards (width and significance of the coverage in reliable sources) that may be used to bring editors into line under some external influence. Diego (talk) 20:47, 10 August 2015 (UTC)

However, in considering PLOT, LYRICS and STATISTICS, while secondary coverage does allow us to include more details than would be afforded if it was just primary sources, we also don't go overboard - for example, take any Shakespeare play which has been analyzed by literary critics in great detail. We don't get so far into the details of those analysis but cover broader themes of what these analysis typically hit, and then provide references for readers to learn more if they need that. Same here with changelogs. As another thing to consider with changelogs particularly of popular software, it does often end up the case that a third-party source will repeat the vendor's changelog verbatim, which does not make that a secondary source but a primary one. ("Here's version X.Y, and what you can expect! (copy + paste)"). We should be guided by the larger points that secondary sources hit, but be careful of going so far into the weeds on the tiny details of a changelog. We do not have nor should not be the last place that someone looking for detailed information will end at, otherwise we're no longer just summarizing source material. --MASEM (t) 22:32, 10 August 2015 (UTC)

But we do get into the details of what analysts have said!, sometimes with lengthy quotes. Shakespeare is the perfect example of how detailed we can get when there's an abundance of critical analysis; articles about scholarly commentary of Shakespeare's handwriting or spelling of his name are not "general summarized knowledge" about the author. Or should we be deleting all this indiscriminate cruft? Diego (talk) 06:13, 11 August 2015 (UTC)

Even there, that's still capturing the volumes of analysis that have been done on the play at a high level. And when it comes to secondary sources with regards to changelogs, there's rarely this deep of an analysis. A feature may be highlighted (I remember when one iOS update broke the alarm app for many, and so its update and fix were certainly covered) but the tiny details, like "adding landscape view" for an app is well into the land of trivia and IINFO for an encyclopedia, and where we can link to detailed sources for those that need it. --MASEM (t) 14:24, 11 August 2015 (UTC)

To me, if multiple independent, reliable, verifiable (or: MIRV) sources crow about how some change in an update will change the world, or it has the potential to change how a device or feature is used forever, or they’re just personally excited about it, that’s perfectly suitable for inclusion even if they turn out to be wrong (in which case any followup about how wrong they were should also be included). But if MIRV sources just state that the change exists, there’s no reason for us to mention it. And if you think I just added “verifiable” so I could be cute with the acronym, you’re right. —67.14.236.50 (talk) 22:44, 11 August 2015 (UTC)

The importaance of including changes depends on the context. As an encycopedia , WP covers things of importance--though there is no formal guideline for content corresponding to WP:N, it is none the less appropriate to include more detail for the subjects of greater importance. Considering the cases of a major general-purpose program widely used by tens of millions to a specialized niche program used by a few thousand, i In the first case , much more detail is appropriate DGG ( talk ) 04:39, 12 August 2015 (UTC)

Text may inadvertently support unlawful use of copyright material

The following text (emphasis added) may inadvertently give the impression that copyrighted material is appropriate for Wikisource:

"Quotations from a song should be kept to a reasonable length relative to the rest of the article, and used to facilitate discussion, or to illustrate the style; the full text can be put on Wikisource and linked to from the article. Most song lyrics published after 1922 are protected by copyright, and any quotation of them must be kept to a minimum, and used for the purpose of direct commentary or to illustrate some aspect of the style."

would better read

"Quotations from a song should be kept to a reasonable length relative to the rest of the article, and used to facilitate discussion, or to illustrate the style; the full text of uncopyrighted or open-sourced songs can be put on Wikisource and linked to from the article. Most song lyrics published after 1922 are protected by copyright, and any quotation of them must be kept to a minimum, and used for the purpose of direct commentary or to illustrate some aspect of the style."

Thisisnotatest (talk) 08:45, 16 August 2015 (UTC)

Open-sourced songs are a thing? I’d say just “in the public domain” would do. Or maybe a link to Wikisource’s inclusion policy, as WP:NOTLINK has. —67.14.236.50 (talk) 15:17, 16 August 2015 (UTC)

I don't know if open source songs are a thing, but they do exist. For example, they are being promoted at Creative Commons: Legal Music For Videos.

Wikisource specifically allows for some free content.

So:

"Quotations from a song should be kept to a reasonable length relative to the rest of the article, and used to facilitate discussion, or to illustrate the style; the full text of public domain or certain free content songs can be put on Wikisource and linked to from the article; see Wikisource:WS:COPY. Most song lyrics published after 1922 are protected by copyright, and any quotation of them must be kept to a minimum, and used for the purpose of direct commentary or to illustrate some aspect of the style."

Thisisnotatest (talk) 18:13, 16 August 2015 (UTC)

That’s… not how open-source works… but anyway, I support this addition, because you’re right: it seems to say we can throw any lyrics up on Wikisource, which of course we can’t. —67.14.236.50 (talk) 03:54, 25 August 2015 (UTC)

Crystal question

Hi, I was just wondering, for One Direction, can I change the years active to 2010-2016? Someone put a note saying it can't because it's Crystal, but it's been confirmed they will end? Elsewhere in the article says about their end, but it isn't counted at Crystal, which makes no sense. When Westlife announced in 2011 they would end the following year, their page was allowed to run as 1998-2012 so I don't see the issue here. CDRL102 (talk) 18:01, 24 August 2015 (UTC)

I mean their end is verifiable so does that not mean it's not Crystal and should be 2010-2016? CDRL102 (talk) 18:02, 24 August 2015 (UTC)

It is crystal in the fact that 2016 hasn't happened yet. The group could stop touring this year (despite the sources noting the plans to end in 2016); they could decide to continue after that point, there's a lot of things that could come up. As such its more premature to say that their years active are 2010-2016, but it is not premature to say that the group is expected to end in 2016 with sources. --MASEM (t) 18:17, 24 August 2015 (UTC)

And from what you say here, it sounds like Westlife was in violation of CRYSTAL during that time. —67.14.236.50 (talk) 03:43, 25 August 2015 (UTC)

Yes, if that was the case. --MASEM (t) 03:51, 25 August 2015 (UTC)