Wikipedia talk:Sockpuppetry

Possible sock/meat puppetry

Not sure where to post this so I figured I'd here. If this is the wrong place, then a push in the right direction would be most appreciated. This recent post made to Talk:Another Language Performing Arts Company has me a bit concerned, so I'm wondering if someone else might take a look. Two of the primary contributors to the article seem to have a conflict of interest, and yesterday and today two new accounts, which seem like SPAs, started editing the page. Not sure if these are socks, meat puppets, or just a "loose association of academic and secular persons who are marginally aware of the group", but the notability of the organization in question is iffy and a post I two months ago made at WT:UTA#Another Language Performing Arts Company got no traction, so this new bit of activity seems a little surprising. -- Marchjuly (talk) 05:47, 1 February 2016 (UTC)

@Marchjuly: Correct place is to open an investigation at WP:SPI (see the box titled "How to open an investigation"). Vanjagenije (talk) 09:26, 1 February 2016 (UTC)

@Marchjuly: Actually, I opened the investigation: Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Jhmiklavcic. Vanjagenije (talk) 09:32, 1 February 2016 (UTC)

Thank you for checking Vanjagenije. I was aware of SPI, but I wasn't sure if there was enough of a duck to warrant one. -- Marchjuly (talk) 10:17, 1 February 2016 (UTC)

@Marchjuly:If you have a good reason for suspecting it, open a case; whether or not there is need for CheckUser, that's the place to go - if it's DUCK, the users will be blocked; if it's borderline, CheckUser may be asked to look at it. עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 19:22, 13 February 2016 (UTC)

Editing while logged out

About the section: Wikipedia:Sock_puppetry#Editing_while_logged_out which I will copy here for convenience

There is no policy against editing while logged out. This happens for many reasons, including not noticing that the login session had expired, changing computers, going to a Wikipedia page directly from a link, and forgetting passwords. Editors who are not logged in must not actively try to deceive other editors, such as by directly saying that they do not have an account or by using the session for the inappropriate uses of alternate accounts listed earlier in this policy. To protect their privacy, editors who are editing while logged out are never required to disclose their usernames on-wiki.

I noticed that this was added by WhatamIdoing who noted the addition here on talk, in this section. For clarity, what is the concern behind the sentence "To protect their privacy, editors who are editing while logged out are never required to disclose their usernames on-wiki." and how is this meant to play out in real life on a Talk page, especially related to the sentence just before it?

Example: UserX does a lot of editing and talking on page A, and an IP editor shows up whose edits are very similar. UserY notices this similarity, and .... what? In light of that last sentence, which i just quoted, what is it OK for UserY to ask the IP, and what is the IP obligated to reply if they are UserX?

Thanks Jytdog (talk) 19:44, 14 February 2016 (UTC)

The editor (neither as the IP, nor while logged in later) is never obligated to tell anyone that the username is associated with a now-public IP address. It would be morally preferable to ignore the question rather than lying, but seriously: never means never. Some people edit from fixed IP addresses, and disclosing their location means handing out their home or work addresses to every crazy person on the internet. We've had editors stalked from this kind of information, and some of it's pretty scary (like a telephone call that "just happens" to mention the names of the editor's kids and which schools they attend).

There is no formal prohibition on asking once. Such a request should never misrepresent policies, e.g., by claiming that the IP is required to answer such a question. Repeating the request or insisting upon an answer may constitute harassment.

However, my recommendation is that you don't even ask (on wiki). The typical motivation for doing so is to discredit the IP's comments, which generally isn't helpful, much less necessary. Most experienced editors will recognize that situation for what it is even if nobody says a word. If you've got someone skating on the edge of topic ban issues (or similar), then you should quietly send an e-mail message to a checkuser instead. Otherwise, it can be ignored.

A middle ground might be a friendly note to tell the IP that if s/he's accidentally logged out and doesn't want the IP address exposed, then Wikipedia:Requests for oversight is available. For greater safety, if the logged-in editor has e-mail enabled, you could e-mail that friendly note instead of posting it on wiki. WhatamIdoing (talk) 08:11, 15 February 2016 (UTC)

Thanks for that. I hear that. So, if you suspect that an IP editor is a person with an account who is actually socking (e.g avoiding scrutiny or attemping to multiply their voice), what is the best thing to do? Just not ask at all (which seems to be what you are saying is best) but rather go right to SPI and present the diffs that show why you think that? I generally do prefer to talk things out with editors who are acting in a problematic way on their talk page but based on what you are saying that is really suboptimal here. Emailing checkusers and the like seems complicated and too personal. I think it would be useful to add a practical advice section here, especially due to the sensitivity. Jytdog (talk) 08:28, 15 February 2016 (UTC)

Sending an e-mail message to checkusers (or a relevant admin, if one is already involved) is the recommended procedure whenever IP issues crop up. SPI won't accept public requests to connect an IP to a username anyway, so private requests are the only way to do it.

As tempting as it is to talk it out in public, that can (sometimes) be a significant problem. For "avoiding scrutiny" issues, I'd recommend contacting CU or admins privately; for "multiplying voice" problems, I'd either leave it alone (most of us will assume that the IP is the same editor), or if it looks like a potential problem (e.g., an inexperienced NAC is closing an RFC), then contacting others involved might be appropriate. To the extent that it's feasible, please try to keep it either private or low-key. WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:21, 15 February 2016 (UTC)

Thanks for replying. But you wrote "SPI won't accept public requests to connect an IP to a username anyway, so private requests are the only way to do it" and this appears to be untrue - many of the cases there a) are still in the record and b) ended with blocks. So I don't understand where you are coming from with regard to actual practice at SPI. My question remains very open and I am looking for an answer that makes sense in light of privacy concerns and what we actually do here. Jytdog (talk) 17:34, 15 February 2016 (UTC)

WhatamIdoing do you have anything further to say on this? If not, I will try to elicit responses from more folks, maybe over at the harassment Talk page... Thanks. Jytdog (talk) 13:06, 20 February 2016 (UTC)

OK, I will open a discussion at talk:Harassment about this. Jytdog (talk) 20:11, 21 February 2016 (UTC)

done, here. Jytdog (talk) 21:24, 21 February 2016 (UTC)

@Jytdog: I'm guessing WhatamIdoing meant that public requests for a CheckUser to connect an IP and an account are not accepted. Behavioural evidence alone can be assessed and blocks made. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 02:24, 22 February 2016 (UTC)

Thanks Callanecc. That completely makes sense. What is your advice about the scenario I posed above? Go to SPI or ask the person directly? Jytdog (talk) 02:28, 22 February 2016 (UTC)

If it's obvious go straight to SPI. Otherwise leave the IP a message reminding them about the policy (for example Template:Uw-login). Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 02:47, 22 February 2016 (UTC)

I think it would be useful to add, then: "If you have concerns that an IP editor is actually a user with an account who is editing while logged out in a way that is an inappropriate use of alternate accounts listed earlier in this policy, you should give the IP editor notice of this policy, and if the behavior continues, you should present a case at WP:SPI" How is that? Jytdog (talk) 02:57, 22 February 2016 (UTC)

Hows this, pretty much the same but with a few little changes: "If you have concerns that an IP editor is actually a user with an account who is editing while logged out in a way that is an inappropriate use of alternate accounts listed earlier in this policy, you should give the IP editor notice of this policy (templated notice), and if the behavior continues, you should present a case at WP:SPI (without requesting CheckUser evidence")? Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 03:22, 22 February 2016 (UTC)

Way way better. I am good with that. Shall we let this sit a bit and see if others have ideas or are OK with it? Thanks! Jytdog (talk) 03:24, 22 February 2016 (UTC)

I closed the discussion I opened at WT:OUTING and directed folks back here. Jytdog (talk) 03:30, 22 February 2016 (UTC)

Sorry I've just seen this. I'd actually prefer editors contact a checkuser directly privately first. This allows for 1) The checkuser to investigate if it's a sock, instead of a legitimate user 2) It saves the person from feeling presured to identify themselves at the SPI, or be identified if a block comes in 3) Checkusers can leave public warnings about logged out editing without revealing the IP, or even outright block them. Please exucse me if this doesn't make sense, I am a little tired right now. -- Amanda (aka DQ) 05:00, 22 February 2016 (UTC)

• Is there anyway we could reword the first sentence? It seems over inclusive as there are some prohibited forms of logged out editing. -- Amanda (aka DQ) 05:00, 22 February 2016 (UTC)

How's this:

1. Change There is no policy against editing while logged out. to Editing logged out of one's account is permitted as the IP address(es) is not used inappropriately. Logged out editing happens for many reasons ...
2. Add as a paragraph after the current one in the Editing while logged out section: If you have concerns that an IP editor is actually a user with an account who is editing while logged out in a way that is inappropriate, you can give the IP editor notice of this policy (templated notice), and if the behavior continues, you should contact a CheckUser privately and present evidence to them.

@DeltaQuad and Jytdog:? Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 05:45, 22 February 2016 (UTC)

I didn't know there is a list of checkusers at WP:CheckUser. Shows what you I know.  :) Maybe a note that there is actually a list, and that CUs are OK with being emailed or something, although I guess if policy says it, it must be OK. Hm. I just avoid burdening people with burdensome jobs with more stuff when i can. Anyway it seems the two of you have this well in hand and I will bow to your judgement. Thanks so much for your attention to this. This issue came up three times for me recently and one of them was a big ugly mess. it will be great to have clarity on this. Jytdog (talk) 05:52, 22 February 2016 (UTC)

The link to contacting a CU should help. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 06:27, 22 February 2016 (UTC)

Yes perfect. I am good waiting a bit to see if there is more input but if you want to implement have at it, of course. thanks again. Jytdog (talk) 06:39, 22 February 2016 (UTC)

I came here from the discussion at WT:HA. Please let me suggest two more things about the revisions:

1. I think it would be clearer if the last sentence of the existing paragraph were changed from: To protect their privacy, editors who are editing while logged out are never required to disclose their usernames on-wiki. to: To protect their privacy, editors who have edited while logged out are never required to connect their usernames to their IP addresses on-wiki. I think that's what it really means, and after all, the right does not go away after one has stopped editing while logged out, which is what "editors who are editing logged out" sounds like.
2. Just a minor nitpick with Callanecc's #1: Editing while logged out of one's account is permitted as long as the IP address(es) is not used inappropriately. Logged out editing happens for many reasons....

In addition, I have a question about the Uw-login template (which I just learned about here, in fact). I noticed that Callanecc's language was quite precise about using the template to notify the IP user, which makes sense, because that way one does not link the IP to a username. But my question is whether there is any policy or guidance about whether or not to send the template notice to the registered account instead (and if not, should there be)? Thanks. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:04, 22 February 2016 (UTC)

I really like Tryptofish's first suggestion.

My main concern with "as long as the IP address is not used inappropriately" is that we have a few editors that will probably interpret all edits by people who are accidentally logged out (and not agreeing with said editors) as "inappropriate". AGF might be a guideline, but if you accidentally get logged out, then you're "Creating an illusion of support" and "Contributing to the same page or discussion with multiple accounts" and probably even "Editing logged out to mislead" – and if the dispute isn't on an article's talk page, then I can charge you with "Editing project space", too. Consequently, I think it's helpful to make a stronger statement, much closer to "There is no policy against editing while logged out." There is a policy against editing while logged out and doing something that is prohibited if you were logged into a different account, but there is no actual policy against (simply) editing while logged out. WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:13, 22 February 2016 (UTC)

Thanks. And about the main point you made, you put your finger on something that was making me uncomfortable as well, but that I didn't quite identify until now. Given that there is no policy against it, overall, but there is a violation under certain circumstances, and those circumstances are explained two sentences later, how about: There is no policy against editing while logged out per se., with "per se" added at the end? --Tryptofish (talk) 23:24, 22 February 2016 (UTC)

I think that per se would be an important clarification. WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:54, 26 February 2016 (UTC)

Thanks! And two questions to everyone: Are we pretty much in agreement about the revisions at this point? And again, I'm interested in an answer to my earlier question, about the Uw-login template. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:07, 26 February 2016 (UTC)

i'm good. this was very helpful to me at least. thanks everyone. Jytdog (talk) 21:15, 26 February 2016 (UTC)

I've implemented it on the page. Other editors may want to double-check my edit. --Tryptofish (talk) 01:18, 2 March 2016 (UTC)

yes you did. thanks again, all. Jytdog (talk) 01:20, 2 March 2016 (UTC)

Clarification of WP:FAMILY?

There was a use of WP:FAMILY over at ANI recently that raises some concerns re: institutional sexism. Namely, the implication that if Editor X and Editor Y happen to be married, Editor Y's opinion in the same discussion might be discounted. While I'm not sure that was the intent of the use of WP:FAMILY at ANI, the way the section is written, it could reasonably give rise to such an interpretation. I would suggest that we clarify how WP:FAMILY works. Namely, I think its main application is to short-circuit the argument by a sockpuppeteer that an account that was identified as a sock was just that editor's "little brother" (or something else non-credible). I think it's pretty clear that this policy isn't intended to discount the opinion of one of a pair of established editors whose living arrangements just so happen to mean that they might communicate off-wiki very often. —/Mendaliv/^2¢/_Δ's/ 02:54, 30 March 2016 (UTC)

I agree, the situation there has been raised for a few other users, basically that if they happen to be significant others, then they are meatpuppets at best and virtually the same user at worst. We would not have this situation for, as an example, adult siblings living at opposite ends of the country. Specifically, the remark, Obviously consensus can change, but two to three folks and a spouse aren't very much of a consensus. was not appropriate. Here, the language Closely connected users may be considered a single user for Wikipedia's purposes if they edit with the same objectives. is problematic. We need to acknowledge that spouses and other people who might share an IP (such as college dorm roomates or co-workers) need to be treated as equal users... if they tag-team or violate policy, people who can talk across a room are no different from people who organize privately on an off-wiki system. I'd suggest just asking that people with shared IPs add a simple tag, not unlike that used for SOCKLEGIT or doppleganger accounts. Montanabw^(talk) 03:06, 30 March 2016 (UTC)

Yeah, absolutely. Like I suggested above, the likely reason for this policy was to prevent a CU-caught sock from just claiming to be a relative to avoid a block. That's a very different situation from established editors who have openly stated they have a connection. As much as drawing distinctions in policy for established editors annoys me, this is a situation where editor reputation and credibility must play a role. In any event, I think the short-term answer is to edit WP:FAMILY to clarify that treating two editors as the same person is intended only as a way not to give a caught sock the benefit of the doubt when he or she claims just to be someone related, and is not an argument to be thrown at declared relatives/spouses/roommates. This policy flat out wasn't designed to address suspicions of meatpuppetry or offline "canvassing" of one's spouse/relatives/friends. —/Mendaliv/^2¢/_Δ's/ 06:58, 30 March 2016 (UTC)

Let's put up some proposed wording. Montanabw^(talk) 05:30, 31 March 2016 (UTC)

What about editors who often edit in contentious areas or get into arguments or engage in edit warring, and decide that having an extra account to help them in such arguments would be a good idea? I think this gives them the right to 6RR if they create an extra account and declare it to be their spouse or significant other or some other relation. MPS1992 (talk) 20:55, 1 April 2016 (UTC)

That's the "my little brother did it" argument, and obvious creation of a new extra account raises sockpullet flags, that's not the point here. The point is that REAL users are being treated like dirt if they edit from the same IP address and in particular, this policy was used to dismiss and belittle a long-time editor. Montanabw^(talk) 04:37, 3 April 2016 (UTC)

Sexist, discriminatory language in WP:FAMILY

• "Closely connected users may be considered a single user" Wow. I mean just Wow. This is the 21st century, or it's supposed to be, anyhow. Wikipedia is also struggling with gender bias in coverage, etc. And you want such sexist, discriminatory language – here on a WP:POLICY page, no less? Are you saying that married female editors are less than one editor? That their husband's voices are heard and counted, but their voice and their thoughts are just tamped down into silence? I do hope this is merely an awkward misphrasing. Did you mean to write, perhaps, "Closely connected users may appear to be a single user in some contexts, or something similar? I mean, the remainder of the section is about declaring one's connections... In its current state, I am genuinely troubled by this sexist language.   Lingzhi ♦ (talk) 19:58, 1 April 2016 (UTC)

• If the family in question consists of two males married to each other, and one male child, and all three edit Wikipedia, how is this sexist? Does the page mention gender at all? MPS1992 (talk) 20:50, 1 April 2016 (UTC)

• Nice try.  Lingzhi ♦ (talk) 20:52, 1 April 2016 (UTC)

• Does the page mention gender at all? What is sexist about it, as written? MPS1992 (talk) 20:56, 1 April 2016 (UTC)

• Because our community is largely male, and men have dominated the community for longer, the current language is privileging the editors that are likely to have arrived first: white, highly educated males. In that sense its reinforcing privelage, which is very likely to be in favor of men and harm women. Sadads (talk) 12:58, 2 April 2016 (UTC)

• Thank you, I do not have much background knowledge in these theories of privilege and, as you put it in your edit summary, "power structures beyond the literal". Do you think, though, that in terms of writing an encyclopedia, supporting and retaining -- and even favouring -- "highly educated" individuals as editors might not be an entirely bad thing? MPS1992 (talk) 13:21, 2 April 2016 (UTC)

• Yes, highly educated (and privileged to some extent) is probably our "ideal" contributor. But I know featured article writers who don't have bachelors degrees -- so we don't want to unintentionally create language or barriers where individuals are unintentionally marginalized or will self elect from participation -- after all this is the encyclopedia anyone can edit and we ought to be judging the accounts on contributions not their social connections to others. This is a problem with historically marginalized communities, like women and African Americans, because they don't have the same type socialization in the "be bold" culture that comes with white educated, male privilege -- so frequently will not defend themselves as is normal in combative educated/masculine communities or when they do, get called out for being too aggressive (think Gamergate type "aggressive bitch" comments, but in all ranges of overt to passive criticism). If we want the people that are qualified from those communities, we have to be careful not to unintentionally create policies which either work against their own confidence, or can be accidentally used against them in policy debates -- every micro aggression creates self doubt, which will often catalyze exit or marginalization within the community. I am going to do the tweak mentioned by Lingzhi, and a couple other language tweaks in light of that. In general, the best thing to do when someone gets angry about "sexism" or "racism" is to listen, and try to figure out what the root of that concern is so that you can help find a solution, Sadads (talk) 16:05, 2 April 2016 (UTC)

• Sadads, I'm sure you didn't intend this, but your post above makes it sound as though white men = highly educated; women and African Americans = probably less so. In fact, highly educated men on Wikipedia tend to be among the less aggressive, so the link between white men and education is misleading, as is the link between education and aggression. SarahSV ^(talk) 00:10, 3 April 2016 (UTC)

• Yes, that is what I am trying to do. I am grateful that you took the time to answer my questions and helped me to gain a little more understanding of the reasons for the rather surprising comments above. MPS1992 (talk) 16:19, 2 April 2016 (UTC)

• Awesome MPS1992: I think what your initial questions in this conversation did was suggest you were trying to disprove the case of Lingzhi, rather than demonstrating that you were listening. Inquiries to better understand a perceived bias, should start with some type of acknowledgement that the author has a valid personal opinion -- so that you communicate that you are trying to be empathetic (for example, "I am sorry that you feel that way, but I am not sure if I understand what you mean by sexism. Can you explain...." ). Frequently counterfactual questions like the one you started with are used to attack marginalized people when they question the status quo, rather than to understand the position of those people. Bringing yourself into the conversation and acknowledging their opinion as valid, helps soften the challenge of communicating about marginalized communities (something that is particularly hard to do in written communications). Keep asking questions and opening conversations! Sadads (talk) 16:33, 2 April 2016 (UTC)

• I am certainly NOT here "to attack marginalized people". Maybe you should be "listening" better, rather than trying to marginalize me! Counterfactual assertions like the ones used by the OP here, and likewise their dismissive reply to my first question, do not help the situation in any way, and I have only so much patience for passive aggressive attacks on me for daring to challenge them. The treatment I've received in this thread is the exact opposite of anything that would encourage me to "keep asking questions and opening conversations". I think you owe me an apology, first, and if you can bring yourself to do that, then please explain what "the case of Lingzhi" is. MPS1992 (talk) 20:42, 2 April 2016 (UTC)

• @Lingzhi: Does this this edit help with your concerns? If not, let us know what else we could do to make sure that the language isn't erasing the individuals as individuals. Sadads (talk) 16:15, 2 April 2016 (UTC)

• I reverted the edit made by Sadads. First of all, the policy change needs broader discussion and consensus. Second, the edit is not helpful. I think that you two do not understand the meaning of this policy (the whole sockpuppet issue is overly technical, I know). This policy is intended to prevent people from abusing the system. It is intended to prevent a group of people who are personally connected (in any way: friends, family, co-workers, ...) to team up in discussions and try to push their POV by outnumbering the opposition. This policy is purely technical: you are not allowed to recruit friends and family to join discussion and help you to "win". It has nothing to do with gender or anything similar. It seams to me, from Lingzhi's comments above that they understand this policy aims to prevent women to have their own opinion by considering them a single user with their husband/boyfriend/whatever. But, that is not the meaning of this policy. Two people who are personally connected may freely edit Wikipedia, and express they own opinions as long as they do not try to abuse the system by teaming up to appear as two separate people having the same opinion separately of each other. So, the policy actually has a meaning that is opposite to what Lingzhi said. This policy actually encourages a woman (or any other person) to have their own opinion, and not to join discussion on the side of their friends/family just to help them to push their view. Vanjagenije (talk) 19:40, 2 April 2016 (UTC)

(←) }@Vanjagenije: What you said all sounds nice and all, really it does, but unfortunately what you said is not what the policy says. All this pleasant discussion has led to exactly zero action, and only action will correct the wrong. Revise the wording to make it crystal clear that WP:FAMILY can NOT be used in debate as a big eraser to cancel out anyone's voice. Period. Ever. Two voices are TWO voices, not ONE. Always. And everywhere. Is that reasonably clear?  Lingzhi ♦ (talk) 23:05, 2 April 2016 (UTC)

Could you be a little clearer, please? What wrong has occurred? MPS1992 (talk) 23:16, 2 April 2016 (UTC)

(edit conflict)What I wrote is exactly what the policy says. If you do not understand it (or do not want to understand), that is your problem. We should not be changing the text of the policy every time somebody does not understand it. The policy clearly says that "connected users may be considered a single user [...] if they edit with the same objectives. "Same objectives" means that there aren't "two voices", but one voice. Vanjagenije (talk) 23:18, 2 April 2016 (UTC)

• Then it's discrimination, prima facie, cut and dried. I agree that the section doesn't need to be revised. DELETE. RFC, or just talk page? Whatever is necessary.  Lingzhi ♦ (talk) 02:14, 3 April 2016 (UTC)

• Vanjangenije, that "one voice" comment is precisely the problem. That is absolute discrimination. In fact, such a statement may violate US Federal Law. A husband and wife, or parent and child should NOT be invalidated simply for sharing a household. They should disclose if they are editing from the same IP to avoid being labeled sockpuppets, and their connection may go to the weight of their argument, (and this is true of lot of other people who tagteam) but not their right to make it. Montanabw^(talk) 04:44, 3 April 2016 (UTC)

This policy is not targeting any gender or group. It does not prevent two people in the same household from editing, it certainly does not favour white males. This whole interpretation seems to involve reading something into the policy that is just not there. HighInBC 05:37, 3 April 2016 (UTC)

• • With all the best intentions, this policy discriminates against married couples, explicitly, openly, and in fact deliberately. I will open an RfC if I can find time....— Preceding unsigned comment added by Lingzhi (talk • contribs) 05:43, 3 April 2016‎ (UTC)
    • I disagree with your interpretation. This policy discriminates on the basis of shared Internet access—nothing more. It doesn't care about what relationship may or may not exist: cohabiting spouses are in the same position as cohabiting unmarried couples, friends sharing housing, or college roommates randomly assigned the same room. I think you're way off base in saying this policy deliberately discriminates against marriage couples when it doesn't discriminate based on marriage at all. Also, this is not an arbitrary policy: it's guided by very serious evidentiary issues. If the language were removed, what's to stop me from abusively socking and, when confronted, claiming that my sock account is actually a spouse, roommate, or child?  Rebbing  06:06, 3 April 2016 (UTC)

Would using an alternate account to edit more sensitive subjects be considered sock puppetry?

I know it is considered sock puppetry if you create multiple accounts to do activities against Wikipedia's rules (such as advocacy, vandalism, etc.). Is it considered sock puppetry if one creates an alternate account to edit more sensitive subjects (ex. abortion, religion, war, etc.) without violating any of Wikipedia's rules? An example of what I am talking about is a user who wants to discuss and edit articles about some current ongoing heated scandal but fears his edits will be taken the wrong way and his internet reputation gets ruined. Would that be against WP:SOCK?45.58.219.100 (talk) 07:41, 2 April 2016 (UTC)

See WP:VALIDALT, point no. 2: Privacy: A person editing an article which is highly controversial within his/her family, social or professional circle, and whose Wikipedia identity is known within that circle, or traceable to their real-world identity, may wish to use an alternative account to avoid real-world consequences from their editing or other Wikipedia actions in that area. Vanjagenije (talk) 09:58, 2 April 2016 (UTC)

RfC: Should WP:FAMILY be deleted from WP:SOCK?

Does the WP:FAMILY section of this page (WP:SOCK) contribute significantly to Wikipedia, in light of existing alternatives? Does it create any harm? If both, does either outweigh the other? Should WP:FAMILY be deleted from this page?  Lingzhi ♦ (talk) 06:05, 3 April 2016 (UTC)

• With all the best intentions, WP:FAMILY openly and in fact deliberately discriminates against family units (in particular, married couples). I contend that thee is real unintended harm here, which outweighs any perceived or imagined benefits:

1. In the typical case, we are talking about erasing/discounting only one !vote from a discussion. If the discussion is close enough or small enough that only one vote alters consensus, then the vote is also close is enough that it should be reasonably moved to another level of content dispute anyhow, rendering WP:FAMILY unnecessary.
2. Does Wikipedia REALLY want to openly discriminate based on demography? Is this practice conceptually in line with the environment WP that wants to create, live within, and expose within our WP:POLICY interface to the non-wiki world? Only if absolutely necessary, I would suggest. And given that multiple alternative means of resolving any cases of Gaming of the system via family voting can be found, is FAMILY both redundant and ideologically toxic?
3. I would conclude with the observation that ALTERING the section to remove its discriminatory effect would be impossible, since its stated goal (with all best intentions) is to discriminate. It can only be deleted OR left intact.

• As a final note, I would anticipate that early !voters in this RfC would be policy page watchers, who might have a generally stare decisis attitude toward deletion of existing section, so the RfC should be publicized, and should be held open for a reasonably extended period of time.  Lingzhi ♦ (talk) 06:06, 3 April 2016 (UTC)

Comment: I don't think that WP:FAMILY "openly" or "deliberately discriminates" against family units, but I do agree that the current wording is problematic, primarily because it seems to contravene WP:AGF. WP:FAMILY seems to be assuming meatpuppetry or sock puppetry, just because two people who (for example) co-habitate also share common ideas on a topic. We can reasonably expect two people living together might share some common opinions, but that is not puppetry and does not mean we should ignore one of them. Imagine if the electoral commission decided that if both you and your spouse/partner voted for the same candidate or political party, only one of the votes would count! I do recognize that sock/meat puppetry is a real problem, but I think AGF should carry more weight. I suggest that WP:FAMILY should be reworded, something like:

If two or more registered editors use the same computer or network connection, their accounts may be linked by a CheckUser. Editors in this position are advised to may declare such connections on their user pages to avoid accusations of sockpuppetry or meatpuppetry. There are userboxes available for this; see {{User shared IP address}}.

Closely connected users may be considered a single user for Wikipedia's purposes if they edit with the same objectives. This is particularly the case When editing the same articles, participating in the same community discussion, or supporting each other in any sort of dispute, closely related accounts should disclose the connection and observe relevant policies such as edit warring as if they were a single account. If they do not wish to disclose the connection, they should avoid editing in the same areas, particularly on controversial topics.

(And probably then move the "userboxes" sentence to the end.)

Mitch Ames (talk) 07:12, 3 April 2016 (UTC)

As somebody openly married to an editor with large cross over in views and interests (thats why we married!), I dont have a problem with the wording of the policy, which is necessary when fakery is involved, but its *application* by a very few when fakery is not. However, wanton misapplication is rare, and we cant leglislate for foolish probably deliberate misreadings. Ceoil (talk) 11:36, 3 April 2016 (UTC)

I find the current wording proscriptive and a little patronising. I would be happy with Mitch Ames amendment. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 12:58, 3 April 2016 (UTC)

• Oppose Are you reading the whole section? It says "Closely connected users may be considered a single user for Wikipedia's purposes if they edit with the same objectives.". Emphasis added by me. Any two users, family or not who work together outside of Wikipeida who work with the same objectives are engaging in meat puppetry. Notice it says may, as in if it makes sense to do so. Two family members living in the same place who edit with their own objectives are not in violation of this policy. If someone told you otherwise they were flat out wrong. There is no discrimination against family units here, it is a rule against meat puppetry. The recommendation for disclosure is to avoid mistaken blocks. We can reword it to make it more clear but I oppose changing its intended meaning. HighInBC 14:15, 3 April 2016 (UTC)

I believe the language as it stands allows for selective discrimination, by which I mean that an established editor's marital status may be used against them without warning. I try hard to stay away from any policy discussions or !votes in which my husband is involved. That said, I edited here for several years before my marriage, and I do not allow that it changes my voice here. I note that no one has seen fit to chastise the man involved here, only the woman, not that I think it is deserved in either case. But I also think that the idea that I ought to be silenced as a "spouse" is faulty. I have declared our relationship from the start. If I hadn't, would I still be subject to censure and silencing? I think not. But feel free to converse on IRC about it. Kafka Liz (talk) 16:42, 3 April 2016 (UTC)

Well, yes, in this specific instance, but in broader terms, no. HighInBC is wrong in on many footings, even not withstanding the massive assumptions of bad faith. For eg I'm not sure how *their own objectives* can ever be defined or policed. It reads like licence for cowboy admins. Ceoil (talk) 16:54, 3 April 2016 (UTC)

What assumption of bad faith? What objectives? Not sure what you mean. HighInBC 17:21, 3 April 2016 (UTC)

It is really hard to respond to that without knowing what you are referring too. Who chastised you? What were the circumstances? The wording of the policy does not target any group. It does not even mention the word family, that is just a shortcut link name. It is about shared IP addresses and nothing more. It is advice about disclosure to avoid accidental blocks, it is a way to avoid people using their little brother as an excuse. I would like to see the circumstances of the situation you complain about because I think this may be more to do with someone misinterpreting the policy than a problem with the policy itself. HighInBC 16:51, 3 April 2016 (UTC)

[1] Note that we are narrowly focused on 15 c art, hardly the realm of meatpupperty. Ceoil (talk) 16:57, 3 April 2016 (UTC)

Well I don't think we should change policy because one person gave some bad advice. Suffice to say I disagree with NE Ent's interpretation of policy in that diff, and I seriously doubt any admin would act on their opinion. I would be better to correct NE Ent's interpretation of the policy than it would be to throw the policy away. HighInBC 17:23, 3 April 2016 (UTC)