Talk:Canada

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Unreferenced sentences

Does anyone have a reference (possibly one that is already used in the article) for any of the following unreferenced sentences?

• "There are also fresh-water glaciers in the Canadian Rockies and the Coast Mountains."
• "Five parties had representatives elected to the federal parliament in the 2015 election: the Liberal Party of Canada who currently form the government, the Conservative Party of Canada who are the Official Opposition, the New Democratic Party, the Bloc Québécois, and the Green Party of Canada. The list of historical parties with elected representation is substantial."
• Most of the first paragraph of Canada#Sport. - Dank (push to talk) 23:03, 8 June 2017 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Common knowledge? Walter Görlitz (talk) 23:15, 8 June 2017 (UTC)

Okay, let me rephrase. I'd like to re-run this at TFA on July 1, but unreferenced sentences at the end of paragraphs are mostly frowned on in any FA, and they can cause problems in a TFA. Does anyone have references? - Dank (push to talk) 23:26, 8 June 2017 (UTC)

The first two should be easy enough to source. Most of the third should be easy to supply, but the level of detail is a bit high and should probably not be included. Walter Görlitz (talk) 23:37, 8 June 2017 (UTC)

Thanks much. - Dank (push to talk) 23:43, 8 June 2017 (UTC)

 Done @Dank: --Moxy (talk) 05:25, 21 June 2017 (UTC)--Moxy (talk) 05:26, 21 June 2017 (UTC)

Country acronyms

Here, Walter Görlitz can clarify his position. He reverted to restore inconsistency: one lone use of 'U.S.', with periods, and seven instances of 'US' and one each of 'UK' and 'USSR', without periods. In his edit summary, he pronounced "English isn't always consistent". However, WP:ARTCON tells us to make articles internally consistent. With perhaps tongue-in-cheek inconsistency, Walter also, in his typically charming manner, commanded other editors to "fix the rest"; one assumes he means put periods in all the other country acronyms, therefore establishing consistency. Which is it? Consistency or inconsistency? Periods or no periods? What do others think? --₪ MIESIANIACAL 03:38, 21 June 2017 (UTC)

I did clarify it and you insisted on "making things match". This isn't a wardrobe. I said you may feel free to modify UK and USSR but elected not to. WP:LANGVAR states nothing about how to deal with acronyms and since the Canadian English article uses "U.S." and "UK" I see no reason that we need to fit into your box. I oppose removing the periods from U.S. to match "UK" and "USSR" but am in favour of leaving alone or adding periods to the other two. Walter Görlitz (talk) 03:45, 21 June 2017 (UTC)

What you actually said and the way you said it is in the edit history for everyone to see.

The "box" to fit into was there before I made my edit: nine out of ten acronyms don't have periods. So, I made the one anomaly fit the majority. I'm sure no reasonable person would see that as unreasonable. If there's a reason they're all wrong, I'm unaware of it (as must be many, many other editors who've let the period-less acronyms stand). But, if they're incorrect, let's establish why and make the correction. --₪ MIESIANIACAL 03:52, 21 June 2017 (UTC)

It seems that U.S. is consistently applied by Americans, and "US" within British usage. For example, the [Oxford Dictionary states that periods are not used, i.e. NATO, EU, US, UK, etc. The MLA style guide uses the "US" abbreviation as well. And from the Government of Canada's own style guide, "Both U.K. and UK are used as abbreviations. Although the traditional practice is to use periods in the abbreviations for geographical names, there is a growing trend to drop the periods in such abbreviations. Thus, the government of the United Kingdom calls itself the UK Government (not U.K.)." It also states the same thing for the United States entry, except for the fact that the US Gov uses "U.S." reflecting American usage. The Canada style is also explicit that periods are not to be used outside of geographic names, i.e. NATO, UN, NAFTA, CAF, RCMP, etc.

My opinion based on the above is that the norm is not periods for geographic names within the Canadian context, and that this trend is increasing (a verifiable fact inline with the Government of Canada Translation Bureau reference). Also, dropping the periods is inline with Canadian usage for non-geographic names and is therefore a far simpler rule for Wikipedia. Perhaps this is a discussion for the Wiki Can style guide as well if you want to make a wider standard outside of the scope of just this article. trackratte (talk) 16:24, 21 June 2017 (UTC)

The issue has come up at U.S. and UK talk pages, and the consensus there was to follow the different usage in the two countries. I don't think there is a right answer, but that is my preference. Note The Star uses U.K. and U.S.[1] OTOH they used "color" for years. TFD (talk) 17:11, 21 June 2017 (UTC)

TFD, agreed there is no "right" way, and that seems to be what the Government of Canada does as well, i.e. used "UK" and "U.S." in line with those country's domestic preferences. For clarity, my preferences are ranked as follows:

1. As above, no periods as per British/increasing Canadian usage: US, UK, NATO, NAFTA, etc

2. Domestic preference which is essentially no periods except for US, so : U.S., UK, NATO, NAFTA, etc

3. American practice of periods across the board. trackratte (talk) 18:13, 21 June 2017 (UTC)

Doing a little digging, I found that the earliest iterations of this article used 'US', without the periods. That plus others' remarks above leads me to conclude there should be no periods in the acronyms. --₪ MIESIANIACAL 17:59, 23 June 2017 (UTC)

Good work! I'm OK with the change. I'll go make it. Walter Görlitz (talk) 18:08, 23 June 2017 (UTC)

It appears to have been done already, except for a title in a single reference. Walter Görlitz (talk) 18:09, 23 June 2017 (UTC)

Imperialist Royal Union Flag

It's not an official national flag. http://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.ca/en/article/royal-union-flag-union-jack/#h3_jump_2 While it "may be flown" in Canada, it's not recognized as an official flag. It would likely be considered as the British flag (because it is). As for https://web.archive.org/web/20111111070357/http://www.pch.gc.ca/pc-ch/infoCNtr/cdm-mc/index-eng.cfm?action=doc&DocIDCd=DJK072980, Commonwealth day is not a recognized statutory holiday so the link is saying "go ahead" but you don't get a day off. Find a source that says that it's an official national flag before adding the imperialist Royal Union Flag again. I'll let others revert if it comes back. Walter Görlitz (talk) 15:56, 24 June 2017 (UTC)

The Royal Union Flag is an official flag of Canada. In the Canadian symbols page, it is listed as a symbol of Canada alongside the National Flag and Canada's Arms..

Thus, it deserves some sort of secondary recognition in the article. --RaviC (talk) 16:12, 24 June 2017 (UTC)

Edit: it seems that the user has some kind of WP:COI or strong opinion towards the flag by his use of "imperialist". The truth is however, it is an official symbol in Canada in the same way that GSTQ is as a Royal Anthem. --RaviC (talk) 16:20, 24 June 2017 (UTC)

Quote CANEY - "With the adoption of the maple leaf–based National Flag of Canada in 1965, the role of the Royal Union Flag changed within Canada. On 18 December 1964, Parliament resolved that the Royal Union Flag would continue to serve as a symbol of the nation’s allegiance to the Crown and of the country’s membership in the Commonwealth" Norman Bonney (16 May 2016). Monarchy, Religion and the State: Civil Religion in the United Kingdom, Canada, Australia and the Commonwealth. Manchester University Press. p. 157. ISBN 978-1-5261-1155-5..--Moxy (talk) 16:23, 24 June 2017 (UTC)

The Government of Canada states that "On December 18, 1964, Parliament approved the continued use of the Royal Union Flag as a symbol of Canada’s membership in the Commonwealth of Nations". As such, it is an official flag in Canada, but not of Canada. It does not represent the Canadian nation (not a national flag), but only Canada's membership within the Commonwealth, which has also since largely been replaced by the Commonwealth flag, for example the Parliament of New Brunswick during Commonwealth day.

It is inappropriate to use it as a symbol of Canada within the Canada infobox. trackratte (talk) 17:46, 24 June 2017 (UTC)

The world is coming to an end. I agree with Trackratte! Walter Görlitz (talk) 00:12, 25 June 2017 (UTC)

And no. I have no conflict of interest other than being Canadian and the Union Jack is not really a recognizable symbol of Canada. Walter Görlitz (talk) 00:13, 25 June 2017 (UTC)

The Union Jack is the British flag which was flown over the colonies and when Canada got its own flag continued in use in limited cases. It is not a Canadian flag. Even if it was, it is so rarely used that it would be confusing to put in the infobox. TFD (talk) 01:03, 25 June 2017 (UTC)

The Union Flag is still a flag used in Canada, but it is clearly inappropriate to include it as an official symbol in the infobox. Being authorized to fly on three or four days of the year at government buildings doesn't mean that it should be included in the infobox. -- Ajraddatz (talk) 05:43, 25 June 2017 (UTC)

That's a fair point, but I do believe it should get a mention of sorts, perhaps in the 'Symbols' section. --RaviC (talk) 12:08, 25 June 2017 (UTC)

References

Canadian Coat of Arms

Like the Australian and New Zealand articles, can we add the Canadian coat of arms next to the Canadian flag in the beginning of the article?

The arms contains material which are subject to trademark laws in one or more jurisdictions. Pls see File:Coat of arms of Canada.svg--Moxy (talk) 21:07, 25 June 2017 (UTC)

And are subject to Crown Copyright as well. The 1957 version, which is still in current official use as well, is a more suitable replacement in other articles as an official state logo of Canada. However, it was decided on multiple occasions that the Canadian Flag is the most appropriate symbol here, and the Arms are not critical to illustrating this article's topic. Of course the Arms are available for anyone who is interested to see via blue links within this article. trackratte (talk) 00:54, 26 June 2017 (UTC)

I do believe this article is the only on Wikipedia for a nation state that doesn't display that country's coat of arms/seal/emblem/equivalent in the infobox. That's a significant inconsistency however. --RaviC (talk) 19:32, 27 June 2017 (UTC)

How so? It's not material to the nation itself. It may be an issue for those who are interested in heraldry or similar, but for the average reader, it's not a loss. https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/ca.html doesn't list either and it's fairly useful. Why is it needed as opposed to just nice to have? Walter Görlitz (talk) 22:54, 27 June 2017 (UTC)

Whether or not that's so, current consensus for the use of non-free content does not permit using the coat of arms in this article. isaacl (talk) 23:15, 27 June 2017 (UTC)

Just one last question then, in the link provided: File:Coat of arms of Canada.svg, it is indicated that the coat of arms can be used as long as it appears "unaltered, in a non-commercial, educational context is specifically allowed by the Canadian government." Considering that we have a Wikipedia article: (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arms_of_Canada) where the coat of arms is displayed, could it not be displayed on the beginning page of the Canada article?

Because it's copyrighted, it must have a fair use rationale. You'll see one for Arms of Canada and Monarchy of Canada. There is none for this article and because we don't discuss it in the article, and it doesn't make sense to discuss it in an encyclopedic way, none can be provided. So we can't use it even though the government of Canada allows for its use, "unaltered, in a non-commercial, educational context". Its use here is not educational but informational at best and more like decorative. Walter Görlitz (talk) 18:11, 27 June 2017 (UTC)

Wikipedia licenses its content for others to use, even for commercial uses. Thus, in general, content incorporated in Wikipedia must be freely reusable. There is a list of specific criteria that, if met, can be used to justify using non-free content. See Wikipedia:Non-free content for more details. Criterion 8 requires that the non-free content is essential for a significant increase in understanding for the topic in question. While this is true for the Arms of Canada article, it does not hold for this article. isaacl (talk) 18:16, 27 June 2017 (UTC)

Law

Add with details about Quebec, where the civil law system is based on French law while the rest of Canada maintains a system of government based on English common law. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.248.62.22 (talk) 11:24, 25 June 2017 (UTC)

Common law prevails everywhere except in Quebec, where civil law predominates. Criminal law is solely a federal responsibility and is uniform throughout Canada.[142] Law enforcement, including criminal courts, is officially a provincial responsibility, conducted by provincial and municipal police forces

--Moxy (talk) 21:05, 25 June 2017 (UTC)

Heads up

The TFA for this article now says " Its advanced economy is the eleventh largest in the world" ... and links to a page showing it's the tenth largest :). FWIW. - Dank (push to talk) 00:25, 28 June 2017 (UTC)

 Fixed--Moxy (talk) 03:42, 28 June 2017 (UTC)

July 1

We will have to keep an eye on this article today as its the featured article on the main page. I expect lots of pointless and small edits will happen all day.--Moxy (talk) 22:59, 30 June 2017 (UTC)

@Moxy: Well, look at the section I opened below. Dr. K. 01:05, 1 July 2017 (UTC)

Edit-warring to tag obvious and well-known facts

Edit-warring to tag obvious and well-known facts is not constructive, especially in an FA article, currently on the main page. Instead of edit-warring to tag these well-known facts, I suggest copying and pasting the sources for these well-known facts from the articles that they appear in. Dr. K. 01:03, 1 July 2017 (UTC)

Easy to source.....will add some. As mentioned above....need to watchout for stupid edits.--Moxy (talk) 01:09, 1 July 2017 (UTC)

Yup. Dr. K. 01:11, 1 July 2017 (UTC)

And tagging to wellknown facts is not constructive either. Granted a linked article is not a substitute for a reference. A reference is not always designed to reference every statement in a section so tagging the specific content not supported is a better option than tagging the reference. Walter Görlitz (talk) 01:24, 1 July 2017 (UTC)

I agree. Btw, I never said that a linked article is a substitute for a reference. What I said was that instead of taking the easy way out and tagging, it is far more constructive to get a reference which is so easy to find. Dr. K. 01:29, 1 July 2017 (UTC)

I never said that linking was your claim, but a general template is not helpful in this case. Walter Görlitz (talk) 01:34, 1 July 2017 (UTC)

Walter, I never said that you said that about me. I said it because the reverting editor quoted "WP:CIRCULAR". I fully agree with you about how tagging is supposed to be done. Dr. K. 01:38, 1 July 2017 (UTC)

Ottawa should be more prevalent in lead

The statement that Ottawa is the capital is clearly an afterthought in the lead paragraph. It's also a bit troubling that it is mentioned after the "One third of the population lives in the three largest metropolitan areas: Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver." statement. This reeks of Toronto based editing and the relentless humble brag editing they exhume. The fact that Ottawa is the capital should be more prevalent and come before the pretty useless fact that 1/3 of Canadians live in... Which IMO shouldn't even be included. Like who really cares, how is that important to anyone?