Talk:Aryan Brotherhood

Untitled

Connections with the Mexican drug cartels

http://newamericamedia.org/2010/11/mexican-drug-cartels-tied-to-us-white-supremacists-1.php — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.198.88.138 (talk) 08:39, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Connection with the Manson Gang?

Basically the used Manson not for Manson but rather for the drugs and weapons that could be smuggled during the time into prisons. Additionally, Manson's girls provided AB members with sex. AB member Clifford Smith is said to have bedded many and AB member Michael Monfort was married to a Manson girl and had 4 children with her before going back to prison for life. anyone knows what the relationship was between Manson and the Aryan Brotherhood? I heard from AB articles about the biggest capital case in U.S. history that they wouldnt let him join because he didnt want to kill a random black guy that didnt do anything to him, as a right of passage. Other sources like Michael thompson in the history channel gangland documentary claimed that he worked with them in the sense they protected him and watched him cause his girls would smuggle in guns and weapons for the Brand inside and put it in their vaginas to the visiting room. Another source claims the relationship was that they turned on him and the inm,ate who tried burning him in 1984 was an AB guy/assasin. Another source claims the relationship was so close and good that they tried even breaking him out: http://www.ocregister.com/ocregister/homepage/abox/article_1044490.php

"The gang attempted to arrange the escape of convicted mass murderer and race-war advocate Charles Manson but later canceled the plan when gang leaders concluded Manson was insane."

Misrepresentation of them in the wiki entry

The ABs are not a political organization and are not aligned with groups like Aryan Nations etc. There are Jewish members, for example. They are basically at the top of the hierarchy of the white underground prison gang network in the US - especially the California and Federal prison systems. WHy does it say in the wiki entry that they are linked with the Aryan Nations or KKK or they commit hate crimes? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.130.236.127 (talk) 19:45, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, that racist "anti-ZOG" thing with them is weird. To sum it up, they're just like any other gang. They really do not have a political agenda. They only care about money and power. So all that SS, swastika, and death head symbolism with them is just used to represent how they are gang affiliated. It's not necessarily a political statement. At least in California: if you look white, and you are in then pen-you fall in line with AB's policies. That's unless your a white convict that grew up running with a Mexican American gang. Then you would fall in with La Eme's, Nuesrta Familia's , or Bulldog's policies; depending on what gang you were from on the streets, or what area of the state you grew up in. It gets even crazier when you throw in multiethnic street gangs and 1% MC's that have declared themselves independent of prison gang control. Prison gangs and politics aren't as black and white as most people think they are (no pun intended). 24.181.225.253 (talk) 00:58, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

also apperently the arizone and california ab are hostile:

http://www.insideprison.com/prison_gang_profile_AB.asp

"The Aryan Brotherhood also operate in other states, such as the Arizona AB and the California AB, which are apparently hostile towards each other." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.207.239.81 (talk) 10:23, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

Fullmetal Alchemist

In the list of references to AB in culture, the Fullmetal Alchemist movie is included. While I haven't seen the movie and can't speak to the veracity of this, it sounds doubtful to me. Can anyone confirm?

Creationlaw 03:10, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Okay I'm gonna go ahead and delete it. Creationlaw 17:30, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Suggestions

Further research into the location and activities of the Aryan Brotherhood would improve the article.JOJO

The AB seems to have presence in many state prison systems as well as the Federal system. They are better documented in California and Texas. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jdesperado5 (talk • contribs) 17:10, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

Predominately?? Shouldn't it be 100% since it's Aryan and all...

This article has no place in a WikiProject on Facism. The Aryan Brotherhood is a criminal prison gang, not a political one.

Second, the contention that the AB has ties to the White Supremacist Arayn Nations is at best, questionable. I would like to know the source and if it has been confirmed. The AB, again, is a criminal prison gang, not a political or religous group. What spiritual/religous beliefs they have are rooted more in their own interpetations of Nietszche than in Christian Identity. AB members tend not to like the political White supremacists in prison, as they have very different goals.

The statement that the AB has a presence in NY homeless shelters also needs to be looked at. I have never come across such a thing.

Disgraceful

This article is disgracefully written and it is a complete embarassment to wikipedia that it has allowed to stand as is for so long. It needs, to put it mildly, extreme revisions in order to make it even somewhat respectable. I plan on working on it and I hope others will join me. Stanley011 14:47, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

The New Yorker article mentions that one of the principal AB members, TD Bingham, is half Jewish and has a Star of David tattoo. Another member is named Tom Silverstein. This reinforces the argument that the AB is a prison gang rather than an "Aryan Nations"-style "extremist" group. Furthermore, having members of Mexican descent or with Spanish-sounding last names doesn't mean that a group has "non-White" members, since "Latino" is a cultural term and doesn't denote any particular race and many Mexicans are "White" as well.

I do agree with your sentiments that AB is nothing more than an apolitcal gang, that AB does have jeweish members, and that AB has members thatdo not have full white heritage. But, Silverstein isn't strictly a Jewish name. Some Germans and Norwegians of non-Jewish heritage have similar names (same goes with -berg). Also, many Mexicans are white. They are full Spanish, full German, full Russian, full Irish, full French, etc. Mexico's ethnic history is pretty rich and diverse. Not all Mexicans have Native American or African heritage, like many people assume. Having a Hispanic last name does not mean that your are not white. Many Spaniards are blond haired/blue eyed, and come from Celtic and Germanic backgrounds.24.181.225.253 (talk) 01:14, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

-Thomas Silverstein is not Jewish. His birth name was T. Conway (his biological father's surname was Conway). His mother divorced/remarried, and his stepfather, Sid Siverstein, adopted him.71.10.231.110 (talk) 18:55, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

I agree with Stanley011 completely. The last paragraph seems to have been written by a semi-illiterate, and that's just for starters. Scheisskopf111 (talk) 03:42, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

This article does need a massive overhaul, as do many of the other entries about crinimal organizations. We should pool our research and come up with uniform format for all of them, covering history, identifiers such as tattoos, where these groups are active etc. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jdesperado5 (talk • contribs) 17:19, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

Neutral POV needed

I would like to say this article certainly needed a more neutral POV edit. I am not knowledgeable in prison sociology or criminology, so I would not want to begin it.

The prose style by the writer is certainly very passionate and makes it an easy read. But this approach makes it impossible for opponents to fact correct without vandalizing the article.

In the spirit of Wiki I must call on both sides of the debate on this article to try to stick to a neutral POV.

Is a NPOV or POV seperation even posible here, due to the nature of the entry topic. --Pine oak 17:03, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

General tone

Does this sound like a love letter to the Aryan Brotherhood to anyone else? It sounds like it to me. me too! Natalie 16:31, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Yes, this article sounds like it is sympathizing with the Brotherhood.

Rewrite

This article seems kind of abandoned, so I'm going to work on it. Hopefully I can deal with some of the problems with the general tone. I also found some more internet sources, which should be helpful.Natalie 17:00, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

I removed significant chunks of unsourced or poorly sourced information. Version before my edits can be found here: [1]. Natalie 19:25, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

the general tone earlier was actually taken from a book on gang tatoos: http://www.amazon.com/Gangs-Their-Tattoos-Identifying-Gangbangers/dp/1581600992/sr=8-1/qid=1162165034/ref=sr_1_1/002-5736522-0420068?ie=UTF8&s=books

click on "search inside the book"

also the Arizona ab is an offshoot of the original and main ab of california. So I wouldn't use it as a source.

It's true that any AZ groups are offshoots, but I don't think that makes the AZ DOC any less of a reliable source of information. Natalie 23:55, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

interesting on another forum I go to John greschner's wife posted:

I fail to see how this is relevant. Natalie 17:17, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

I concur. Ford MF 17:28, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

it is relevant. From : http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/07/11/ap/national/mainD8IQ1CAO0.shtml

"Jurors heard accounts of dozens of murders and attempted murders, including one in which the attacker licked the dead man's blood from his hands while laughing hysterically."

That may be, but Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not Court TV. The point is to give an overview of the group, not a complete account of their crimes. Besides that, Wikipedia source policy does not list web forums as reliable sources. There's no way to prove that this person writing really is who he/she says they are. I mean, I could have written that - there's no way to know. Also, PLEASE sign your posts by typing ~~~~. Natalie 14:57, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Dueling Sources

a documentary is being shown this sunday: http://channel.nationalgeographic.com/channel/ET/popup/200703042000.html http://www.tvsquad.com/2007/01/30/national-geographic-goes-inside-the-aryan-brotherhood/

Neither John William King nor any of his associates were or are members of the Aryan Brotherhood. It seems like "Aryan Brotherhood" is becoming a generic catch-all term for any White prison gang, sort of like refering to everyone who rides a Harley Davidson as a "Hells Angel" See: http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/special/jasper/king/228293.html "Sammy Buentello, assistant director of the Texas prison system's gang task force, said both King and Brewer had been monitored for possible affiliation with the Ku Klux Klan and the Confederate Knights of America (CKA), a skinhead group, while they were housed at the Beto I Unit in Tennessee Colony. But none of the three suspects was linked to membership in the Aryan Brotherhood, one of the most violent gangs operating inside the state prisons, Buentello added.

Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:John_William_King" —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 208.27.203.131 (talk)

Another source disagrees with your source, which doesn't necessarily surprise me. This could be written as "John William King may have joined the Brotherhood in jail (source), but this assessment is disputed by Sammy Buentello, assistant director blah blah blah (source)." That seems like a good compromise to me. Natalie 22:09, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

I guess it would depend on which source would be credible in terms of direct familiarity with both King and with gangs in the Texas state prison system. King's actual jailer, located in Texas, seems just a little more likely to have personal knowledge of the facts than an "analyst" for the SPLC that fails to cite sources, and relies on information from anonymous posters who purport to be somehow linked to AB-like groups while posting on the "Stormfront" website. It wouldn't be considered credible to just cite the anonymous "Stormfront" "internet warriors" as a source. Why should it be any different when SPLC does the same on their website? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 208.27.203.131 (talk)

Well, I disagree that King's jailer is an automatically more credible source than any journalist. The head of a prison easily can have an agenda to downplay gang activity, particularly in the case of someone who left jail and then proceeded to drag someone behind a pickup truck. Also, just because someone didn't directly join the Aryan Brotherhood doesn't mean they weren't influenced by the Brotherhood's actions while in jail (this interpretation has not been expressed in the article so far). Finally, while Wikipedia doesn't cite original research, it is completely unavoidable to not cite sources that use original research. The definition of a secondary work, which is what Wikipedia relies on for citatations, is one that uses primary sources to argue a point or tell a story (i.e. original research). In this particular case, I couldn't interview a jail official and publish the information here, but if a newspaper reporter does so and publishes that interview or part of it in a story, it becomes okay as a source.

Perhaps the solution here would be to just relay the information given by the sources and allow the reader to decide on their credibility, rather than making that judgment for them. Natalie 19:35, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Well... I never suggested that Mr. Buentello was "automatically [a] more credible source than any journalist." Furthermore, if you consider cribbings from anonymous posts on racist websites like "Stormfront" to be valid secondary sources, why don't we just throw objectivity out the window and surrender to the demons of subjectivity. The bottom line is, including reference to King in an article on the AB serves only for shock value and is needless distraction at best, particularly because of the notorious nature of his crime. Meanwhile, there is little or no credible evidence that he even came into contact with a PRISON GANG that is primarily based in the California and Federal systems while incarcerated in Texas. If "original research" is of any value, I attended the recent RICO trials of AB members in Southern California and heard numerous witnesses for the prosecution and the defense testify that AB is NOT affiliated with the "Aryan Nations", (KKK, nazi groups, etc.)and that their primary purpose is advancement of the gang's power base and economic interest behind bars. That included black gang members testifying for the defense that the AB war against the D.C. Blacks was "gang business" and not racially motivated. But then, maybe twisting the race angle makes it a little more spicy than just writing about a bunch of aging bullies and career criminals who have killed just as many white prisoners (including their own members) as blacks in order to advance their much more pragmatic agenda of drugs, money and power. BTW, don't forget: "Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not Court TV. The point is to give an overview of the group, not a complete account of their crimes..." —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 208.27.203.131 (talk • contribs).

You need to remember to calm down and assume good faith. But to respond to your comments:

1. To say the "King's actual jailer... seems just a little more likely to have personal knowledge of the facts" seems like you're saying he is a more credible source. That may be, or it may not be, but I don't think it's for either you or I to decide.
2. I did not, nor would I ever claim, that a threaded discussion group is a valid secondary source. I am saying that an article, in this case published in SPLC's magazine, is a secondary source that is using discussion group postings as primary sources.
3. The article does not claim that the Aryan Brotherhood is a purist white supremacy group, and notes their cooperation with Asian gangs, the Mexican Mafia, and other groups. However, the gang did start as a white supremacist organization and does use white supremacy and racism to recruit and motivate, so it cannot be ignored in a discussion of the Aryan Nations.

So far, the only complaint that you have made is about the murderers of James Byrd, but you also took out sourced information indicating that Aryan Brotherhood members commit hate crimes and other crimes when they are released from prison. I am going to restore that section, although I will leave the bit out about the King and his cohorts until this is resolved. And please sign your posts on talk pages. Natalie 00:33, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

Im willing to bet he was part of the offshoot Texas Aryan Brotherhood: http://www.adl.org/learn/extremism_in_the_news/White_Supremacy/aryan_brotherhood_texas.htm?LEARN_Cat=Extremism&LEARN_SubCat=Extremism_in_the_News

"The Texas Aryan Brotherhood formed in the early 1980s as an offshoot of the (California-based) Aryan Brotherhood; it is an independent group with a presence in Texas and some neighboring states. In Texas, this violent group has more than 400 members. "

• In rsponse to yoour number 2, the aryian brotherhood didn't start off as a supremecy group. They aren't Neo-Nazi's or anything they even have founding members as Jews. The reason it's a caucasian gang is due to the fact that's what started it. It's similar to how you don't see whites in MS-13. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.234.82.253 (talk) 19:21, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

I think you mean number 3 and can you provide a source for your assertion that some of the founding members were Jews. That seems highly implausible, considering it's a prison gang. Natalie 20:37, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

Yep. We can. [2]. And as such I'm removing the Whire supremacy Line from the Infobox. WillSWC 20:55, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

I was actually asking for a source that one of/some of the founding members was/were Jewish, which isn't mentioned on the site you provided. Perhaps it was in the show, though - I didn't watch it. The episode capsule also says "Outwardly a white power group", which indicates to me that white supremacy is one of their issues, just not the main issue. Perhaps an explanation of the nuance - that the group is ostensibly white supremacist but is more concerned with drug trafficking - is better than just removing white supremacy from their interests. National Geographic does not seem to be claiming that the AB is not in any way concerned with white supremacy. Natalie 21:20, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

It was "Outwardly a white power group" But as it was stressed time and time again in the show (Which i did watch), They're not a White Supremest Group. They're a Criminal Organization. This was stated by several ex-members of the Brotherhood including one who used to be rather high ranked withen the Brotherhood.(Like 3IC or something like that.) WillSWC (talk) 16:38, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

actually there is an aryan brotherhood of Texas and it is quite big and powerful. not sure if they coordinate with the california and federal chapters and if they are all part of one gang or not or if they are white supremacist though. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.136.40.55 (talk) 12:31, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

@

Yes there are Jews in AB. But that's as far as it goes. Writing in the article that AB accepts members of 'mixed races' implies that people who look like Barak Obama are welcome. If you are a tough white boy who has Jewish blood, AB may take you as long as you look Caucasian. If you look Asian, African, Latino there is no way you may join AB.Meishern (talk) 15:34, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

Tattoo

There is a strong tendency to avoid or hide distinctive tattoos in the Aryan Brotherhood now. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.194.4.21 (talk) 15:22, 31 December 2007 (UTC) The Mara Salvatrucha are also avoiding tattoos now. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.194.4.21 (talk) 10:13, 5 January 2008 (UTC) This is a general move, to prevent identification. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.145.157.255 (talk) 16:33, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Do you have a reliable source that discusses this phenomenon? At Wikipedia, we can't really take anyone's word for it, so if you don't have a source then the information probably can't be included. Natalie (talk) 18:45, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

At one time www.adl.org/hate_symbols, but this does not work now. Try the web.archive people. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.194.4.21 (talk) 10:18, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

www.knowgangs.com might be useful. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.194.4.21 (talk) 10:37, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

Good point! That's becoming true of all gangs in California now. From the streets, all the way into the prison system.24.181.225.253 (talk) 01:17, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

Disambiguation

There is or was a group called Aryan Brotherhood in Bombay, India. I don't know much about it except that it was active in at least the early 20th century, and that it was a reformist organization that strove to remove caste prejudice. I have seen references to Aryan Brotherhood in community records. This Aryan Brotherhood had absolutely nothing to do with the notion "Aryan" as it is understood in European usage (where it generally carries connotations of racial superiority). In Sanskrit, "Arya" means a noble and virtuous human being. I am not entirely sure whether it has caste connotations. And the Aryan Brotherhood was an organization that worked to break down barriers that divided one caste from another and that fostered caste discrimination/atrocities. At least one means by which the Aryan Brotherhood sought to promote a more tolerant society was by organizing intercaste dinners (sharing food with someone a lower caste was taboo, and could lead to excommunication and its attendant social and financial consequences, or even murder). So the Aryan Brotherhood was, from the point of view of the caste orthodoxy, a radical organization. Such organizations, including the Prarthna Samaj and Paramhamsa Sabha, were frequented by Indian social reformers in Bombay and elsewhere in India. Many of these organizations still exist, as does caste prejudice. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.182.129.15 (talk) 00:56, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

Rivals and allies

I propose deleting rivals and allies listed for which there is no citation; without citation it just feels like an outlet for whoemver would like to beat their chest. Barring counter proposals, or fruitful discussion, before 10.00 GMT 5.Feb.09, i'll make the proposed edit. Quaeler (talk) 09:37, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

Sounds good, with one caveat - perhaps you could look for citations, at least for those which seem more likely? I'll do the same. Their are reports of links between the AB and other prison gangs, like the Mexican Mafia and the Nazi Low Riders, as well as at least some ties to the Italian Mafia. Similairly, there is at least a general understanding that the AB is at odds with ethnically black prison gangs, a category which include street gangs like the Crips. So maybe hold off on deleting all of those. As a side note, I would like to see serious improvements in all of the articles on prison gangs, or at least the main five or six articles. Cheers, ClovisPt (talk) 14:47, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

Sounds like a plan; i'll look for citations. Quaeler (talk) 19:14, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

I haven't yet been able to find citations for many of the listed groups, so I removed them. Anyone who can find citations should kindly add them back. Regards, ClovisPt (talk) 21:55, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

Opening Paragraph

The second sentence in the opening paragraph states "In March 2006, four leaders of the Aryan Brotherhood were indicted for numerous crimes, including murder, conspiracy, drug trafficking, racketeering, dog fighting, and arms trafficking.[4]"

Is that really important to be placed in the summary of the article? This is a prison gang, so chances are that the majority of its members are in prison or a step away from being arrested again. Maybe it should go under 'current developments' or a similar section. Meishern (talk) 15:24, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

At the time that I added that (or maybe just preserved it in a rewrite? I can't remember), it was a big deal because, as far as I understand, it was a very successful investigation that actually took out some leaders of the gang, rather than low level flunkies. I'm not adverse to a rewrite, but I personally don't have the time or access to sources. Natalie (talk) 21:53, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

Origin Controversy

Despite being a member of the Aryan Brotherhood, Tyler Bingham is claimed to be Jewish and has a tattoo of Hexagram which is claimed to be the Star of David by some parties.

I tagged as fact, it is claimed Star of David refers Jewish, however possibly it is a Hexagram. Do you have any RS about the case. Jewish origin is claimed yet highly doubtful according to me. Any other editors who have wider knowledge may clarify the issue. Kasaalan (talk) 16:10, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

Yes. You need stronger evidence to claim that the leader of AB is Jewish than a hexagram tattoo. Prison tattoos have significance that is not supposed to be understood by everybody. Unless there are articles that talk about his mother lighting Sabbath candles or his father being a Kosher butcher, lets not add this nonsense to the encyclopedia. Meishern (talk) 18:18, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

My view is, there is no actual proof that he is Jewish by any means, and he uses a Hexagram which is an old Germanic symbol not the same shaped Jewish symbol, The Star of David. Yet some POV parties, continously bringing the issue, as a indication of his "Jewish origin", so we have to mention it somehow, indicating it is possibly a hexagram and not The Star of David. I tried to put the case as neutral as possible, tagged it. It is better if we may provide neutral info with reasonable doubt to the case. Kasaalan (talk) 13:39, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

I don't see a reason to mention it at all. AB has Jewish members supposedly (so I read somewhere), but they hide that fact and join AB for protection. 5 percenters Black prison gang also use a hexagram because they consider themselves the true Israelites. To suggest that the leader of the top Aryan prison gang is Jewish and proudly displays his Star of David tattoo, and the rest of the members are cool with it is preposterous. Meishern (talk) 17:46, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

Lots of people using hexagram tatoo as a proof of his "Jewish origin" which is possibly untrue. So we should mention the claims as neutral as possible, we can't ignore or mislead the case. Kasaalan (talk) 19:02, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

How many tattoos does he have? Must we describe each one? There is no way to say that the leader of AB has a Star of David tattoo without implying that he is Jewish, which is false. Neutrality goes out the window. Perhaps we could phrase it something like--- "Curiously one of XYZ's tattoos is a hexagram, better known as the Star of David. The meaning behind the tattoo is unknown as there is no evidence that XYZ has any Jewish ancestry." What do you think? Meishern (talk) 19:38, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

I didn't start the rumours, I am opposing that theory in the first place and I added RS about the tatoo controversy. People misleadingly believe he is Jewish because he has a hexagram tatoo on his arm, it is highly speculative. So best way is telling it is possibly an "Aryan" symbol, hexagram which is same shape with Star of David, and not a Jewish symbol. The text was in Bingham's article, I am trying to neutralise it, which also proves it is not a proof of his Jewish origin by any way. Kasaalan (talk) 20:04, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

<---

Who knows. Maybe his girlfriend put it on him when he was sleeping. I gonna look around google and see if i find some solid ref's be well. -Meishern (talk) 20:33, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

I made some modifications. Read below regarding sources. If anyone is against it, please lets discuss it.Meishern (talk) 22:47, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

Who knows about Bingham, but the AB does accept known Jews into their ranks. I believe it is as long as they are not faith based, or practicing Jews. After all, AB is not a political organization, it is a prison gang motivated by power and money. So they accept any white looking individual in, as long as the individual puts in work for the AB. I think they only bar people with native African heritage. This discussion should be merged with some similar ones above this category.24.181.225.253 (talk) 01:27, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

Tyler Bingham is part Jewish, it is why he has the star of David on one arm and Swastika on the other. It is well documented. See David Grann, Annals of Crime, “The Brand,” The New Yorker, February 16, 2004, p. 156 -- Green Cardamom (talk) 04:09, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

By this logic anyone with a Star of David tattoo is Jewish? Maybe he killed a Jew and decided to get the tattoo to remember the joy he felt. Maybe he feels the Jews he sees are imposers and only the Aryans are the true and only pure blooded descendants of the Biblical Hebrews. Maybe he thinks its cool to have a swastika on one arm and a Star of David on another to confuse his adversaries.

Is his mother and her mother Jewish? Was he circumcised by a rabbi? Did he have a bar-mitzvahs? Was he converted to Judaism if not, where and by whom?

Would the strongest prison mafia (according to FBI) allow a Jew to be its leader?

Referencing a writer from The New Yorker Magazine (who probably is having a good chuckle spreading nonsense that all Aryans are secretly controlled by Jewish leaders with 1 tattoo as evidence) does as much to improve the image of Jews as The Protocols of the Elders of Zion. Maybe the New Yorker writer should stick to writing articles about something he is more familiar with like all male spandex fashion shows and the extinction of snapping turtles in the Central Park Lake.Meishern (talk) 14:40, 21 March 2010 (UTC)

Actually even if he is Jewish or not, only matters is his crimes. On the other hand Aryan symbol, hexagram has the same shape with Star of David. I am not sure the writer knows the difference. By the way David Grann, Annals of Crime, “The Brand,” The New Yorker, February 16, 2004, p. 156 needs subscription, can you copy paste related text. Kasaalan (talk) 07:30, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

Use of Weird Thesis from Czech Republic as Reference

I am not sure that someone from Prague (http://is.muni.cz/th/74220/ff_m_b1/FINAL_VERSION.pdf?lang=en) is a qualified expert on the Crips, Bloods, AB and other American prison gangs. I read some of the lunacy written in his/her thesis. "...a substantial part of the Aryan Brotherhood gang is consisted of members of either mixed or Jewish origin..". So what he/she is saying is that a statistically significant portion of AB is partially black, Mexican, Asian or Jewish? Look. If this is the reference being used to claim that AB is a Jewish Prison Gang led by a rabbi with a star of david tattoo, please lets get back to reality. I am sure that Mr/Ms Jitka Balíková, the author of this wonderful master-degree thesis, saw a lot of prison movies, (maybe even saw a real black person once, and not on tv), however there are no references in the thesis regarding the wild claims made. Lets try to use real sources please. Meishern (talk) 22:34, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

There is also no real evidence provided in that thesis that supports it either. As someone who had to write a thesis and many college papers, a professor would require you to cite where you would have obtained information like that. If Tyler Bingham was truly half Jewish then he wouldn't have been allowed membership or would have been kicked out the minute it was found out. It makes no sense, it's like someone saying Dick Cheney is a member of Al Queda.

Let alone, I have to question the academic integrity of a school from the Czech Republic, kinda like I'd question someone who got their MD from a school in Hati. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.231.180.54 (talk) 22:48, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

I am the one who added the thesis along other sources. Masaryk University Faculty of Arts Department of English and American Studies English Language and Literature. The thesis author might even be racist or a tendency, there are certain neo-nazis in europe.

The Aryan Brotherhood, often shortened as ‘AB’, is structurally and functionally very close to an organization, rather than a gang only. Although there have been profound changes during the history of the Aryan Brotherhood, it has preserved its original White supremacist character. The AB gang is almost purely mono-racial, but being of Caucasian and non-Jewish origin is definitely not a key prerequisite to the AB membership “Know Gangs” Jefferson. [Page 39]

Similarly to other gangs, including the Crips, the AB has been prone to creating alliances with gangs of non-Caucasian races to boost the drug business if needed. The allies have been ranging from the Mexican Mafia to the African-American gangs too. Needless to clarify that there have not been any signs in terms of a non-Caucasian being accepted as an AB member. Yet, a substantial part of the Aryan Brotherhood gang is consisted of members of either mixed or Jewish origin “Chicago Gangs”. [Page 39-40]

I reached via google, and didn't read rest of the thesis. I used it in the context:

Bingham has a tattoo of a Swastika on one shoulder and a Hexagram on the other. Some argues the hexagram as the Jewish Star of David and claim that Bingham, one of the leaders of the Aryan Brotherhood, is Jewish. Gangs across America The Anatomy of Current Gangs in the USA: the MS-13, the Aryan Brotherhood and the Crips Master’s Diploma Thesis, Masaryk University Faculty of Arts Department of English and American Studies English Language and Literature, by Jitka Balíková There is no factual evidence that Bingham's mother was Jewish.

He might or might not be Jewish but the tattoo is no proof. That is all I am saying. Also George Bush family has strong connections with Laden family as oil business partners. Arbusto Energy Kasaalan (talk) 07:48, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

Quoting Ancient Statistics

Article states that AB has 15,000 members but forgets to mention that this number is based on a Justice Department report compiled from confidential informants in the year 2000 (10 years old). Isn't there anything newer out there? 10 years went by. September 11, Global Warming, Ipods. Perhaps the number of AB members changed too.

This whole entry is based on regurgitated statistics. Article from 2003 quotes 2000, and articled from 2006 quotes 2003, and article 2009 quotes 2006 article. Can we get some new information?Meishern (talk) 07:40, 22 March 2010 (UTC)

• The last census was 10 years ago too. That's probably more important than the AB's. Have you tried looking for a more recent reliable source? At least you probably won't have to wait 10 years to find out that global warming was more hype than fact. Niteshift36 (talk) 07:51, 22 March 2010 (UTC)

A lot of things are more important than AB. Yet this is an encyclopedia article about AB. Go post your wise comments in the sandbox. I made analogies to underline a valid point. Not sure what you did. If you have nothing constructive to say... well you know how the saying goes.

I looked for anything new that doesn't drip back to the 2000 Justice Department Report but so far with no success. If this gang is responsible for 15% of murders in the Federal Prisons, I am surprised there is nothing out there except the arrests of their leaders from years back. Any recent referenced info would be appreciated. Meishern (talk) 12:23, 22 March 2010 (UTC)

• Well if it sounds "wise", maybe it's because you are complaining about the age of the survey without really presenting a solution. And characterizing it as "ancient" is really not realistic when you look compare it to other govt. functions, like the much more important census, which is done every 10 years.

You really have little room to lecture about saying something constructive. What was your constructive input in the initial post? You made no mention of even looking. So why would I, or anyone else, presume you looked? I do have more recent sources about them, but I don't recall off the top of my head if they said anything about total numbers. I'll check them when I get the chance. Niteshift36 (talk) 13:23, 22 March 2010 (UTC)

I am not interested in debating the benefits of the 10 year census mandated by the US constitution and carried out for centuries. AB is a 40 year old prison gang, described as one of the most powerful, yet the information is 10 years old (25% of lifespan). Since the census has a warm place in your heart, imagine describing USA using data from the 1940's (25% of lifespan).

I talk the talk and walk the walk. I've been looking for new info. How do you know? You don't. The original referenced content I created on Wikipedia along with my edits are my proven record. Cheers! Meishern (talk) 05:33, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

• Uh, yeah....try paying attention. It should have been pretty clear to anyone that was paying attention that I ASKED if you tried looking for a source. Then you got snippy and said you had. Then I followed up saying "You made no mention of even looking. So why would I, or anyone else, presume you looked?" First I ASKED if you had, then I acknowledged that you said you had, pointing out that you made no mention of it in your initial post. So at what point do you arrive at the illogical point of asking me "How do you know? You don't"? You're right, I don't know. I never claimed otherwise. But I am assuming (hopefully correctly) that you aren't a complete liar and when you said you had looked for sources that you were telling the truth. Was that assumption incorrect? I've dug out tons of references for articles that needed them, saved articles, blah, blah, blah......so what? Surely you aren't expecting me to be bowled over because you made some edits and wrote some articles? And I guess you missed where I offered assistance in locating a source. BTW, the whole 25% think isn't that impressive. If you knew a lot about how the DOJ works, that wouldn't surprise you at all. Many gang studies haven't been updated since 2002. Others since 2004. The newest thing from DOJ I can find in my files on the AB is from 2003, not a big improvement. Most of the stuff published in 2002-2004 was collected before 9/11, when a lot of the resources were shifted. Kind of sucks, but that's how it went.Niteshift36 (talk) 06:07, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

Your first response to my post about the importance of US Census , which was a funny observation on a discussion area for AB, drew me into this. I unfortunately reacted, and not in a constructive way. After that, neither one of us said anything constructive to benefit this article. Lets stop this pointless argument. Lets drop it. So listen, if you want to team up and make this article a bit more current, alright, lets do it. I like what you wrote in the second half of your last reply. Thats a start. I just wrote an email to the FBI (dont know how far that gets me) for a comment regarding AB activity over the past 3 years. I agree with what you wrote that some gang information is static since 2002 or earlier. Crips and Bloods gangs article for instance. Yet the MS-13 has info from last summer. I am going to try to get to the bottom of this. Perhaps I can get an article published out of this research. Cheers! Meishern (talk) 15:38, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

• I used the census parallel to illustrate how something really important (decides congressional representation, federal funding distribution etc) is done only once every 10 years, so seeing them do little more than 10 years on a prison gang shouldn't be a big surprise. Yes, I'm all for ending the silliness. Call it OR if you like, but I deal with the Justice Dept. on a regular basis and a lot of stuff slipped through the cracks after 9/11. MS-13 is a different animal. They are a trans-national gang, which means there is a border security issue with them, aside from the normal gang crime issue. Of course, there is the ever-present drug issue too, but unlike Crips or Gangster Disciples who pretty much distribute only, MS-13 is involved in the actual importation, again, a border issue. AB may be powerful within prisons, but they are essentially contained. They wield far less real power outside of the prison walls. The reality is often a fiscal one. If you have X amount of dollars to spend on tracking gangs, you spend it on the most dangerous and most public. Since most of the AB's "victims" end up being other felons, they tend to rank lower on the priority list. That could all change in a second if the AB caused a major disruption at a prison or killed corrections officers in/out of prison. Then they'd beomce the "flavor of the month" and get some attention. Niteshift36 (talk) 15:52, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

You know, my idea is to rewrite this article. I just found a website for example (http://www.dc.state.fl.us/pub/gangs/prison.html#ab) from the Florida prison system, that explains the situation much better than Wikipedia. Especially that in the state system any white gang, which is tolerated in those states, can claim to be AB but the California or Federal Gang will not recognize it. Will look for similar websites in other state systems and maybe break the articles down by states and federal. I will try to get a hold of a gang coordinator in some of the prisons and see if can get some quotes from them. Meishern (talk) 16:12, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

• I thought that source was already in use here. It's in use in a number of gang articles on Wikipedia. I know some of the guys that wrote the source material. It is, however, pretty dated as well. I know I have a few federal sources on AB, I just have to find where I filed them. Niteshift36 (talk) 20:38, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

I don't see ref to above link in article. Florida article is undated anyhow. Well you keep mentioning you got connections with the law. See if your friends know of anything published regarding AB thats any more recent that's not classified or has potential to endanger anyone. Nothing more I hate than reading about some bozo at the New York Times who knowingly published info that might get an undercover officer or an informant killed. Meishern (talk) 00:29, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

Not clear

It is not clear what the out-come of the 2006 trial is for the five AB mentioned. I think that most have been sentenced to life, already being served on other grounds.

As far as I am aware, none of the defendants has been executed to date.

There is still the possibility that some might be in the future. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.30.71.244 (talk) 17:19, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

Carl Carver and Larry Max Bryan seem to have got life sentences. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.176.252.5 (talk) 12:00, 1 May 2014 (UTC)

It is difficult to see what the outcome was for the others. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.26.11.238 (talk) 12:14, 28 May 2014 (UTC)

Aryan leader in Texas dead

Here's a source I found:

• Schiller, Dane. "Death of reputed Aryan leader stumps police." Houston Chronicle. June 6, 2011.

WhisperToMe (talk) 16:56, 6 June 2011 (UTC)

BIASED!

The article of BGF just calls them a street gang. This article makes it look like the AB sound like it belongs on the Commision. I find it interesting that black prisoners are just "street gangs" but skinhead thugs are "Organized crime racketeers" I'm removing the organized crime category. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.146.74.239 (talk) 20:31, 2 September 2011 (UTC)

Jacks gang in Breaking Bad

It was never said in the show, or in production that Jacks gang was part of the AB. The producers were very careful not to connect the gang to any existing gang when they created their tattoos and look. SO it should not be included here since they were only a white supremacist gang and not AB http://www.amctv.com/breaking-bad/videos/contains-spoilers-making-of-episode-508-gliding-over-all-inside-breaking-bad

• Agreed. Doesn't belong in this article. Niteshift36 (talk) 02:01, 13 October 2013 (UTC)

What is allowed

Is it allowed to live with an hispanic women if you are of the Aryan brotherhood. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.26.213.83 (talk) 06:10, 23 December 2013 (UTC)

• This isn't a discussion forum. Niteshift36 (talk) 20:32, 21 March 2014 (UTC)

Aryan means you are not white but are Hindu or Muslim

It is a mistake to call this group Aryan as the word comes from Sanskrit and is thus part of the Hindu religion or describes the people of Iran who are for the most part Muslim. -Teetotaler 19 May, 2015 — Preceding undated comment added 10:50, 19 May 2015 (UTC)

• That's a pretty narrow view, but it doesn't matter. The article is about the group Aryan Brotherhood. They use the term. Even if you convince them to change the name today, there is still 50 years of history that will still remain here. Niteshift36 (talk) 15:41, 19 May 2015 (UTC)

No this person is completely wrong. Aryan is white, and "pure" white (aka Germanic). I bet half of the brotherhood are actually not aryans by it's original definition but it's a name of a gang as the other has said above. Saying it's arab is just ludicris and you must have either a scewed view of history or have never been educated in the Nazism and/or the Aryan Genocide in the 16th century or whatever. (you might be confusing the word ayra, meaning noble) It's much longer than 50 years of history as well. Just to correct you. This gang may have been around in that time but the word has been in dictionaries, as such, since about 1844.

• You're not correcting me.......this isn't about the Nazi use of the word. This article is about the Aryan Brotherhood, which wasn't around in 1844. Both of you need to focus on the topic and not using this as a discussion forum. Niteshift36 (talk) 19:22, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

Banshee series

I don't know how to fix this but just to tell you Banshee is linked to an actual banshee page not the tv series. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banshee_%28TV_series%29 Not sure if that was meant in the original editors construction but I think it should link to the series. Cheers. 86.173.122.153 (talk) 13:05, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

Territory

I think that only major presences should be listed as "territory" in the infobox. Trying to list any place they happen to show up isn't really productive — Preceding unsigned comment added by Niteshift36 (talk • contribs) 14:13, 14 April 2016 (UTC)

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Dallas Earl Scott

The co-founder of the "Aryan Brotherhood" was Dallas Earl Scott (whiteprisongangs, chicagotribune.com) (born Aug. 20, 1945, deceased Mar. 17, 1999) (obituary ; Find an inmate : DALLAS EARL SCOTT, Register Number 18698-148, Deceased: 03/17/1999). In 1966, he robbed a bank in California, was caught and sentence to San Quentin: the "Aryan Brotherhood" was formed one year later, in 1967, not in 1964.--31.37.155.16 (talk) 22:15, 15 October 2017 (UTC)

Peckerwood nonsense

@QubixQdotta: So this source from the Anti-Defamation League, is specifically about Aryan Brotherhood of Texas, which is treated by Wikipedia as distinct from the Aryan Brotherhood. Surely you noticed the dismabiguation template across the top? Using one source about a different group to cram your pet-project into this article is totally inappropriate. Whitewashing the lede of the article by removing defining characteristics and replacing them with slang and jargon is also totally inappropriate. Most readers are not going to know what "peckerwood" means, and even worse, very few sources actually describe this first and foremost as a "peckerwood gang". In fact, I haven't seen a single source which defines them as a peckerwood gang. It's a slangy term that doesn't have the academic meaning you're bestowing on it.

Even if that source were appropriate for this content, it also, repeatedly, emphasizes that the ABT is a white supremacist gang. It says this far more, and more consistently, than it says anything about peckerwood culture, which is just a single paragraph.

The Atlantic source very, very clearly explains that the Aryan Brotherhood is white supremacist, even if not every member is enthusiastic about it. A gang which forces members to get tattoo of swastikas and "white power" on their bodies surely treats white supremacy very seriously, no? It can be a white supremacist gang even if not everybody still professes to believe in those tattoos once they are out of prison. This article is interesting, but it absolutely doesn't belong in the lede... unless your goal is to whitewash the organization be replacing "white supremacist" with a euphemism. That's not going to fly here, as we've been over so, so many times. Grayfell (talk) 04:02, 8 January 2018 (UTC)

I agree with grayfell on this one. EvergreenFir (talk) 04:52, 8 January 2018 (UTC)

The real question is, how is reverting back to unsourced content the answer to the problem? I don't see any sources that say its "Neo-Nazi". I was objectively more constructive to the article by actually sourcing information. It was counterproductive to revert it. Period. And to say I was replacing it with a "euphemism" is divisive and rediculous. It's a peckerwood gang - that's a fact. I would gladly label the National Socialist Movement, Ku Klux Klan, and Hammerskin Nation as white supremacist because that's the sole purpose of those groups. To label it peckerwood would help people better understand what it actually is. [qub/x q;o++a] ++ 05:04, 8 January 2018 (UTC)

I'm simply trying to clarify the diversity of culture that exists in the world. This is a different culture than white supremacy, and white supremacists hate these guys because of it. AB members don't read Mein Kampf religiously. They're more culturally associated with hispanic gangs ironically and have multi-racial groups of friends. It's not whitewashing its the raw truth. As long as you can understand the truth is different from the article we can get on with our day. [qub/x q;o++a] ++ 05:13, 8 January 2018 (UTC)

(edit conflict) How about, instead, you search for supporting material before removing the labels you're questioning? I found 3 sources right of the bat: BBC, Slate, WaPo. Moreover, WP:LEAD directs us to summarize the article in the first section. Nowhere do I see "peckerwood" other than the see also section and the categories. EvergreenFir (talk) 05:28, 8 January 2018 (UTC)

Dollars to donuts, very, very few neo-Nazis, white supremacists, white nationalist and others in the alt-right have ever cracked Mein Kampf -- and whether they do or not is completely irrelevant. It's their actions and their expressed beliefs that are important, not where they came from. Beyond My Ken (talk) 05:25, 8 January 2018 (UTC)

You're right except for the white nationalist part. What their actions really represent is working class white people. Then started to work in labor unions with the Chicago mob. That's why the vote for the Democratic Party, because they love the unions and express their beliefs. [qub/x q;o++a] ++ 05:46, 8 January 2018 (UTC)

Here again, your opinions mean nothing. Sourced material from unbiased reliable sources is all that counts. This article is not a vehicle for your political and sociological theories. Go start a blog for that. Beyond My Ken (talk) 06:06, 8 January 2018 (UTC)

Ignorance is pure bliss. I'm envious. [qub/x q;o++a] ++ 06:31, 8 January 2018 (UTC)

You should be, since knowledge is power. Beyond My Ken (talk) 06:44, 8 January 2018 (UTC)

You're right it's empowering that I actually know what I'm talking about. [qub/x q;o++a] ++ 06:54, 8 January 2018 (UTC)

This is not a forum to discuss your beliefs. Your comments from 05:46 make it quite clear you're trying you push a pov and being disruptive in the process. EvergreenFir (talk) 07:17, 8 January 2018 (UTC)

That's the word-of-mouth history of the subject according to veteran members themselves, not that it should be in the article. I guess disruptive is one way of putting it. It sure doesn't fit the whole divisive script designed for gullible university kids does it? [qub/x q;o++a] ++ 08:17, 8 January 2018 (UTC)

Are you here to improve the article using reliable sources, or spew garage in support of a neo nazi (links above) group? EvergreenFir (talk) 08:47, 8 January 2018 (UTC)