Talk:Collaboration in German-occupied Poland

Current consensus

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1. The scope of this article is "collaboration in German-occupied Poland, irrespective of who was collaborating" (1)(3)

2. Polish railway personnel should not be described as collaborators (2)

RfC on whether a source support a categorical statement

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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• The statement "Unlike the situation in most German-occupied European countries where the Germans successfully installed collaborationist governments, in occupied Poland such efforts failed" is immediately followed by a single reference, to News Flashes from Czechoslovakia Under Nazi Domination (1940).
• The source says the following: "When the Germans invaded Poland, they suggested that Estreicher should form a puppet government. They naturally met with no success in making this proposal...".
• The source makes a claim in the singular ("he refused"), while the article makes a claim in the plural ("such attempts failed").

Is the source enough to establish the claim? (yes / no) 00:09, 3 May 2018 (UTC)

NOTE TO EDITORS

At this point the wording in the article that was the subject of this RfC was changed and several additional reference sources added to back up the text.--E-960 (talk) 08:37, 4 May 2018 (UTC)

Survey

• No. A generalized claim needs to be supported by a generalizing source. François Robere (talk) 02:38, 3 May 2018 (UTC)
  • Here you go: [1]: "Practically the only countries under German occupation that did not have a Quisling government were Poland and Holland." --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 12:19, 3 May 2018 (UTC)
• No. It is unclear whether there was a serious German attempt (or if this was a low level local half-hearted try) - so failed would be over stating this. The source itself is POVish (as may be see with the "naturally met with no success" language). Comparative statements regarding the situation in other countries should be done based on sources covering WWII as a whole - from a comparative cross-national stance - and not POVish sources covering this specific subject (which may perhaps be utilized for sourcing what happened in Poland - but not what happened outside of Poland). As might be seen in Talk:Collaboration in German-occupied Poland#"only German-occupied European country" with death penalty some of the claims / POVish stmts these sources make regarding exceptionalism in German-occupied Poland (vs. other occupied countries) are outright wrong and have been refuted.Icewhiz (talk) 08:13, 3 May 2018 (UTC)
  • @Icewhiz: That's a good point, and I think most sources agree on this. In some places, particularly, Poland, Germans did very little effort to create such a state. The emphasis should be on the fact that, as sources agree, Poland was one of the few places there was no 'quisling' government. Why is not relevant for this sentence, through something to be discussed in detail in a dedicated paragraph. It should be made clear that one of the main reasons for lack of such government was the fact that Germans were not interested in it in the first place. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 12:21, 3 May 2018 (UTC)
    • @Piotrus:It is somewhat correctly addressed already in the 5th sentence (I think you missed that Piotr)
    • Nazi racial policies and German plans for the conquered Polish territories, on the one hand, and Polish anti-German attitudes on the other, militated against any Polish-German political collaboration. Further German efforts in that direction were precluded after April 1940, when Hitler banned negotiations concerning any degree of Polish autonomy It could be added that Hitler lost interests in creating a puppet state after 1940.GizzyCatBella (talk) 12:41, 3 May 2018 (UTC)
    • @Piotrus: To clarify - I agree that indeed Poland was one the few places (and possibly the only major (e.g. German occupation of the Channel Islands#Administration did not have a Quisling) such country (depending on how you define collaborating (Denmark, Holland, the non-Vichy half of france etc.)) without a collaborating ("Quisling") gvmt - and that that should be stated (I object to "failed").Icewhiz (talk) 12:50, 3 May 2018 (UTC)
• Comment. This RfC is not properly created and should be cancelled. First off, who initiated it, since there is no signature? Also, there are THREE reference sources attached to this statement, not just the ONE that's listed in the RfC description. Are you challenging all three, or just one of them, so you can justify the removal of the text or the reference itself? What is the end objective of the RfC? because it's not clearly stated. --E-960 (talk) 09:09, 3 May 2018 (UTC)

The other two were only added after the RFC was created [2][3]. The "end objective" is to clarify the use of this source. François Robere (talk) 10:22, 3 May 2018 (UTC)

I agree that the RfC statement might have been more neutrally and adequately worded (i.e. referring to a general "Is it acceptable to say that the 'Germans failed to establish a puppet state'?"), but there is no requirement that the RfC statement be signed. In fact, in cases like this, where the article is clearly subject to lots of conflict, I would personally recommend avoid it so as to keep the statement a bit more neutral. 198.84.253.202 (talk) 01:53, 4 May 2018 (UTC)

• Comment. On top of that, there are plenty of sources already given in the prior discussions, and I understand François Robere (individual filing this RfC) is well aware of that. "failure"_to_establish_a_puppet_state,_part_II It appears that FR started the same matter all over again (3rd time actually) to have text adjusted exactly the way he desires.GizzyCatBella (talk) 12:15, 3 May 2018 (UTC)
  • Comment. As you're well aware, that discussion ended without consensus on this particular phrasing. But this RFC isn't about that - it's about this source. Is it, or is it not out of place? François Robere (talk) 12:55, 3 May 2018 (UTC)
• No While it is true that no collaboration government was formed, it is unclear (from the sources presented in the previous discussions, I and II) whether this was a result of the Nazis trying and failing or the Nazis not actively pursuing this objective - even more unclear given that not all sources seem to agree and that various editors seem to be able to spin (often, the same) sources to both sides of the argument. Therefore, concluding that the Germans "failed", in wiki-voice, would be either WP:UNDUE and/or WP:SYNTH.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.84.253.202 (talk) 01:55, 4 May 2018‎
  • Comment. The problem is that this survey is misleading, because there are other sources citied there not just this one, and it comes across as if the initiator of this RfC wanted to remove the statement just by discrediting only one of the sources provided. --E-960 (talk) 09:08, 4 May 2018 (UTC)

You're reading too much into it. I repeatedly flagged that particular source, but at least two of the other editors (Bella, Marek [4][5], and possibly even yourself) removed those flags repeatedly. Seeing that there's no discussing or even tagging that source despite its obvious shortcomings, I decided to bring it to an RfC. François Robere (talk) 14:01, 4 May 2018 (UTC)

In response to the above: I think the text currently in the article (which does not take position, but merely mentions the facts as they are given in the sources, which goes exactly per what is described in WP:WikiVoice) is perfectly acceptable in its current state. Agree that the survey is misleading and non-neutral, both for the reasons you give and for the reasons I have also given above. 198.84.253.202 (talk) 20:49, 4 May 2018 (UTC)

• No, use a different source Yes (support): this failure is also discussed in "Why the Poles Collaborated so Little: And Why That Is No Reason for Nationalist Hubris" by John Connelly. Slavic Review, Vol. 64, No. 4 (Winter, 2005), pp. 771-781. Available to read with free registration at http://www.jstor.org/stable/3649912. --K.e.coffman (talk) 00:38, 5 May 2018 (UTC)

Connelly discusses the pre-war negotiations, which are covered in the Background section, not the Political collaboration section (here's what other sources say). Regardless, the RfC is about News Flashes from Czechoslovakia Under Nazi Domination (1940), which doesn't make that statement. François Robere (talk) 03:51, 5 May 2018 (UTC)

Connely makes a statement (quoting from memory) that the German occupation of Poland was especially harsh because the Poles refused to collaborate. In any case, when peer-reviewed sources exist that say the same thing, I don't see a point in holding an RfC about a potentially inadequate source. Just use a better source. K.e.coffman (talk) 03:23, 12 May 2018 (UTC)

@K.e.coffman: I tagged that source as inadequate several times, but it was repeatedly untagged by some of the other editors involved here, who defended that statement and weren't willing to budge on it; an RfC was the only option left. As for Connelly - his views, like many of his contemporaries, are more complex than simply stating that there "was" or "wasn't" collaboration, and at any rate he makes no statement germane to this RfC. François Robere (talk) 21:49, 12 May 2018 (UTC)

Sorry, I'm not quite following. The RfC is about a statement Unlike the situation in most German-occupied European countries where the Germans successfully installed collaborationist governments, in occupied Poland such efforts failed. IIRC, Connely makes a statement that Germans failed to install a successful collaborationist government because Poles refused to collaborate, or something to this effect. These two statements seem pretty close to me. K.e.coffman (talk) 21:59, 12 May 2018 (UTC)

The RfC is first and foremost about a source; the statement was modified, as I understand it, to reflect the fact that whether or not they "failed" is contested, with some sources explicitly stating the opposite [6]. The distinction I make here with regards to Connelly is of "before" and "after" the beginning of the war: Connelly discusses the pre-war negotiations, which are covered in the Background section, not the Political collaboration section. The first part of the story isn't contested; the second part is more complicated, and saw various parties making various suggestions and contacts, starting in Sept. 1939 and going all the way to 1941 and early 1942; here the Germans typically rebuffed any suggestions of collaboration. Does this clarify the issue and the RfC? François Robere (talk) 12:11, 13 May 2018 (UTC)

• Yes (support) especially since, contra the false wording above, this is NOT the only source that makes the claim.Volunteer Marek (talk) 20:42, 12 May 2018 (UTC)

It's not "false wording". As stated several times above, at the time the RFC was opened that was the only source attached to that statement. François Robere (talk) 21:32, 12 May 2018 (UTC)

• No. Not as currently phrased nor using present sources. That collaboration was relatively minimal seems generally agreed, but phrasing implies that Poles - almost alone of occupied countries - heroically declined to compromise, whereas there is little indication that the occupying power ever seriously sought, expected or wanted 'accommodation' with the Poles and that their plans for much of Eastern Europe - inc Poland - aimed at complete subjugation and destruction of 'the nation', from day one. Better sources, putting a more nuanced picture seem called for. Pincrete (talk) 22:16, 12 May 2018 (UTC)

Discussion

• Totally wrong, there are much more sources to verify that part, please take a better look.GizzyCatBella (talk) 01:11, 3 May 2018 (UTC)

But that's not what the RFC is about. The RFC is about this source. If this source isn't enough to establish the claim, and you need to instruct the reader to "take a better look", then you failed as an editor.

There are loads of citations, just look into the history of the talk page and article itself. Are you starting the whole dispute again "failure"_to_establish_a_puppet_state,_part_II or you are kidding me?GizzyCatBella (talk) 02:28, 3 May 2018 (UTC)

I'm asking a simple question: A statement is immediately followed by a source. Does that source establish that statement? François Robere (talk) 02:39, 3 May 2018 (UTC)

• "Inline citations allow the reader to associate a given bit of material in an article with the specific reliable source(s) that support it" (WP:INCITE). If this "bit of material" isn't supported by the specific source, then either one shouldn't be there. François Robere (talk) 03:18, 3 May 2018 (UTC)

A question, do the sources say "Unlike the situation in most German-occupied European countries where the Germans successfully installed collaborationist governments"? Hell what countries outside Europe did the Nazis occupy?Slatersteven (talk) 07:58, 3 May 2018 (UTC)

What Nazis? Did you mean Nazi Germany?GizzyCatBella (talk) 08:05, 3 May 2018 (UTC)

Of course.... Now why not answer the question.Slatersteven (talk) 08:06, 3 May 2018 (UTC)

This is not a controversial claim. Many good references should be easy to find (ex. [7], [8] or [9]). Really, what's the purpose of this RfC? --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 10:54, 3 May 2018 (UTC)

And at least one of those does not say that this was common in other occupied countries. SO can you provide the quote that I am missing?Slatersteven (talk) 11:09, 3 May 2018 (UTC)

[10]: "Poland remains a country without a Quisling and, in all of Nazi-controlled Europe, the place least likely to assist the German war effort... " Anyway, if someone really has a problem with qualifiers "most German-occupied European countries where the Germans successfully installed collaborationist governments", well, we can just list them; see the second column in German-occupied Europe: Slovak Republic, Vichy France, Quisling regime, Hellenic State (1941–1944) , Government of National Salvation or the list at List_of_World_War_II_puppet_states#Germany. The cases of Belgium, Netherlands and Denmark are interesting, too. Wikipedia sources seem confused on whether Denmark, Belgium and the Netherlands were occupied and under direct administration, allied with Germany or puppet states, the related articles/sections are a mess, but in the end those are smaller countries. Geographically and demographically, most of Nazi-occupied Europe was ruled by Nazi-friendly collaboratinist puppet states. See the map here: File:World War II in Europe, 1942.svg. Another way of looking at this, is which parts of Europe did not produce collaborative governments (because for various regions they remained under military occupation only?): Poland, USSR, Denmark, Belgium and the Netherlands. Outside USSR, the three Nordic countries had some level of government collaboration (Denarmk had its entire government, the two others, at least some semblance of political activity and autonomy). On the other hand, France, Finland, Norway, Slovakia, Hungary, Yugoslavia, Romania and Bulgaria were either German allies or collaborating puppet states. The RfCed sentence seems correct, through I agree it would be nice to find a more clear and direct quote. PS. [11]: "Practically the only countries under German occupation that did not have a Quisling government were Poland and Holland." --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 12:10, 3 May 2018 (UTC)

How more direct it can be?

• The Contemporary Review, Volumes 160-161 - A. Strahan

But all the German attempts to build up a Polish government have failed. In the first months after the conquest, the Nazis approached many people in order to persuade them to form a government on the Hacha model, but nobody accepted. This total refusal of collaboration has led Hitler to a change of policy. As long as he hoped to get some Poles to work with him the non- annexed part of Poland was officially called "Polnischer Reststaat"GizzyCatBella (talk) 12:26, 3 May 2018 (UTC)

Maybe I am missing it, care to highlight where it says this worked on most occupied countries? Odd given we have better sourcing for this claim made before this.Slatersteven (talk) 13:09, 3 May 2018 (UTC).

Slatersteven, what is the point of your arguments, in most cases your statements come across as if you really have NO IDEA about the subject matter, and just visit the page to argue and be disruptive by creating confusion during discussions. You don't need a source for every word in the article. It's common knowledge that in most occupied countries there was a collaborationist government like in Vichy France, Quisling regime, Reichskommissariat Niederlande, Denmark, Independent State of Croatia, Slovakia, Hellenic State, Finland and so on. You challenge facts that are really obvious and non-controversial, just to pick a fight on the talk page. --E-960 (talk) 08:27, 4 May 2018 (UTC)

Like Czechoslovakia you mean? It is far more complex then that, many countries simply ceased to exist, and were replaced by smaller (and totally new) entities. Others (like Lithuanian) had a government that only lasted a very brief period. Others (like Denmark) were not official occupied but were called allied (a fiction to be sure, but it helps to muddy the waters). Others (like Finland) were never in fact occupied at all and were purely allied nations (who had their own beef with Russia). Still others (like the Reichskommissariat Niederlande) were in fact Germans (or in this case Austrian headed German authorities, not Quisling regimes, like the General government). In fact very few followed the Norway model. Which is why I wanted that claim sourced.Slatersteven (talk) 08:36, 4 May 2018 (UTC)

?? Czechoslovakia... uh, it did not exist during WWII and does not exists now. Thanks for proving my point that your aim is only to create confusion with un-ending red herring arguments. --E-960 (talk) 08:44, 4 May 2018 (UTC)

Czechoslovakia existed prior to WWII and if not for "peace in our times" might have been the start of it. Even the Vichy example you give above (which is a favorite of some - possibly since it is the best known - but actually is not such a good example) - was only in half of France (and that - for 2 years until Nov 1942) - the other half was under German military administration in occupied France during World War II - should we say that "Zone occupee" was one of the few countries/areas without a collaborationist government?Icewhiz (talk) 08:47, 4 May 2018 (UTC)

• Perhaps I can interest you in topics such as British–German cohabitation of Nazi-occupied Channel Islands, British Free Corps and Edward VIII they could use additional scrutiny as well.--E-960 (talk) 08:51, 4 May 2018 (UTC)

Icewhiz, seriously, why are you latching on to exceptions, was only part of Norway, Denmark, Holland, Finland, Greece, etc. partly under a collaborationist government. So, this is your tactic you find an exemption and want to throw the baby with the bath water. --E-960 (talk) 08:55, 4 May 2018 (UTC)

A, yes I only mentioned Czechoslovakia, thus proving your point. B, Yes that is my point (that the issue is not obvious and rather complex, and did exist after WW2 as well as before it). The issue of collaborationist governments is not as black and white as some of you claim. Many would argue that Vicey was not France, and thus France (as a nation) did not have a collaborationist movement, the same has been used by many in other nations. The arguments may often be silly and nationalistic, they are still there. Thus it is best if we source any claim that might be challenged.Slatersteven (talk) 08:58, 4 May 2018 (UTC)

And there are people who claim the earth was flat. So, on that topic as well, you're like... "sound legit". We can't say the earth is round cause there are folk who think it's flat. --E-960 (talk) 09:03, 4 May 2018 (UTC)

This is not the same, this is not an irrefutable fact backed by science, it is an opinion that many historians have contested, hell even one of your examples is flat out wrong. So you wonder why when such mistakes occur I asked for sourcing, rather then OR.Slatersteven (talk) 09:10, 4 May 2018 (UTC)

Again, Slatersteven, perhaps topic such as British–German cohabitation of Nazi-occupied Channel Islands, British Free Corps and Edward VIII they could use additional scrutiny as well.--E-960 (talk) 08:51, 4 May 2018 (UTC)

This is not about those articles, or whether I edit them. So care to answer how Holland had a collaborationist regime?Slatersteven (talk) 09:23, 4 May 2018 (UTC)

Does anyone dispute that "some" or "many" German-occupied countries had collaborationist governments? Nihil novi (talk) 09:29, 4 May 2018 (UTC)

As I said before E-960's intervention I now accept that the claim has a source.Slatersteven (talk) 09:32, 4 May 2018 (UTC)

Slatersteven, under the Reichskommissariat Niederlande, a cabinet position under the Reichskommissar, of the Leader of the Dutch People Anton Mussert. Kind of what the Germans wanted to use Wincenty Witos for, but unlike Mussert, Witos did not agree to collaborate. --E-960 (talk) 09:40, 4 May 2018 (UTC)

Did you even bother to read what I have said above? Why are you still arguing this?Slatersteven (talk) 09:44, 4 May 2018 (UTC)

Any objection, then, to some such text as the following?

"Unlike the situation in many German-occupied European countries which had collaborationist governments, in occupied Poland there was no puppet government."

Nihil novi (talk) 10:40, 4 May 2018 (UTC)

No, we now have sources that say it..Slatersteven (talk) 10:43, 4 May 2018 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Editorializing

User:E-960 restored the whole "Grabowski is unprofessional" segement (see below). I tagged it, but the tag was removed [12]:

Extended content

Subsequently, Grabowski acknowledged that his estimate was not the result of original research, but was based on referencing works of other historians, most notably Szymon Datner, and as reported by the Polish newspaper wPolityce: "Grabowski admitted that the number of 250,000 fugitives from the ghettos is based solely on his own estimates and selective treatment of Szymon Datner's works. Grabowski simply took into account the maximum number of escapes from the ghetto suggested by Datner, but he rejected his estimates of the number of survivors. According to Grabowski—if you subtract the number of survivors (in his opinion only 50,000 people) from the number of fugitives, you will get 200,000. Grabowski, therefore, stated that this was the number of Jews murdered by Poles." Also, in a March 2018 interview with the Polish newspaper Gazeta Wyborcza, Grabowski said he had never claimed that all 200,000 Jews had been killed "personally" by Poles, but that some Poles were co-responsible for the deaths through collaboration, even if the Jews were killed by the Germans..

The problem here is the general sense of doubt arising from the text:

• "acknowledged" and "admitted", rather than "clarified" or "explained"
• "not the result of original research, but..." (does it have to be?)
• "based solely on his estimates" (which, as an expert, he's qualified to make)
• "selective treatment of Datner's works" (?)

And that's just the first two sentences. That's not neutral text. If it's based just on the newspaper, then that's an unqualified source to cast doubt on a historian's research methods; and if it doesn't, then it's OR. François Robere (talk) 14:36, 7 May 2018 (UTC)

Gazeta Wyborcza is presented out of context (that some Polish right-wing publicists said Grabowski said something he hadn't said - Gazeta Wyborcza was asking him to set the record straight) - and is unneeded. The wPolityce piece is even worse - this is a right-wing internet portal (not a newspaper - they do have a weekend paper - but this is the site) - and is not wPolityce saying something (which would be FRINGE and not an academic source in any event) - but rather wPolityce reporting on the Facebook posts of the Polish ambassador to Switzerland - which is certainly not a source for history or BLP content.Icewhiz (talk) 14:49, 7 May 2018 (UTC)

These are both reliable sources, Gazeta Wyborcza and wPolityce are like the two biggest papers in Poland one on the right and the other on the left. As for some of the bullet points regarding Grabowski, expert or not, his work CAN be scrutinized by other academics and writers and journalists, and as in the case of Grabowski, there is no original research involved, only the equivalent of academic copy/past... a rather questionable and lazy way of doing anything, just to make a "new" shocking claim in a book to sell more copies. As with any profession, there is such a thing as questionable and poor quality research. --E-960 (talk) 15:33, 7 May 2018 (UTC)

wPolityce is reporting on a series Facebook posts by a Polish ambassador - that's not an academic source.Icewhiz (talk) 15:40, 7 May 2018 (UTC)

And, you have a US President and everyone else using Twitter to announce policy, that's 21st century. Btw, this was a Polish ambassador not Joe-schmo on FB, so the ambassador probably was briefed on the matter, and he raised a legitimate point that Grabowski did not use first hand sources, only an analysis of other historians' works. That's a big thing to point out, and very legitimate in this case. --E-960 (talk) 15:51, 7 May 2018 (UTC)

All of what you've just written is either WP:FORUM or editorializing in its own right. The fact of the matter is you have a diplomat, a journalist, and a Wikipedia editor giving their opinions on something neither is qualified to opine on. This isn't an appropriate counter-balance to the nearly 200 professional historians who wrote in his support. François Robere (talk) 16:20, 7 May 2018 (UTC)

The bottom line is that Grabowski's work is of poor quality, and the academics who support him are not infallible themselves. The basic facts around Grabowski don't add up, all of a sudden 70 years after the war, he "discovers" new facts — not based on going to to first hand sources, but doing arithmetic based on other historians' works. It's like writing a book about Brazil, by either going to Brazil and writing about it, or going on-line geting a bunch of facts, then make your own interpretations and write a book. That kind of "expert academic" research is BS nothing more. Just an excuse to publish a book and sell copies by making new and shocking claims. At this day and age "academia" is nothing more than just another avenue to make money. --E-960 (talk) 18:32, 7 May 2018 (UTC)

The bottom line is that your opinion is WP:OR, contradicted by actual reception of this work in peer reviewed journals. Clearly this work has faced some push back from elements in Polish society, but overall reception has been quite positive - reviews and a major prize in the field.Icewhiz (talk) 18:45, 7 May 2018 (UTC)

Well, the bottom line is that the two sources are RELIABLE, so instead of trying to remove them, why don't you find text which supports Grabowski instead of trying to 'tag' or 'delete' everything that makes you unhappy. Btw, it not hard to get 'good' reviews when you are preaching to the quire. --E-960 (talk) 19:01, 7 May 2018 (UTC)

Gazeta Wyborcza is reliable, but says nothing new - Grabowski merely repeated in 2018 what he wrote and said in multiple interviews. wPolityce is not a RS - but even if it were - it is merely reporting on a Facebook post by the ambassador - so we could say the ambassador posted that on Facebook. The Facebook post itself is not a RS - it is UNDUE to include the opinion of a functuonary - but if included it has to be attributed to him - note this was discussed at RSN.19:14, 7 May 2018 (UTC)

Please, if wPolityce is not a reliable source than what is, is there an international committee that determines what media outlet is "reliable" and which one is "not reliable", basically anything right of centre-left is radical and not reliable in today's liberal standards. Because wPolityce has a national audience, makes money form advertisers and newsstand sales, the writers have worked in the past in other national news outlets (credentials). So, it's not a blog edited in someone's basement, and it has a conservative side, just like CNN is liberal and FOX News conservative. --E-960 (talk) 19:26, 7 May 2018 (UTC)

If your point was that that site is as reliable as Fox News, then it's not a very good point to make - it's highly contested [13]. Also, I think you're missing what Icewhiz says: The first source states nothing already stated before; the second is actually the ambassador, not the paper, and the ambassador is not an RS in his own right. So, again, you're left with very little in terms of the reliability of those claims. François Robere (talk) 20:53, 7 May 2018 (UTC)

So, you can say wPolityce quoted the ambassador and his analysis of the work, in any case, it's legitimate to include in the article. --E-960 (talk) 21:44, 7 May 2018 (UTC)

And since when is the Polish ambassador an authority (i.e. reliable source) in the field of Holocaust history??? 198.84.253.202 (talk) 22:23, 7 May 2018 (UTC)

I'll keep the analysis of the source itself to Icewhiz, who's more familiar with it. If it did pass RS, the change of tone would still be required, as well as the length of the text covering it (WP:DUE). Again, none of it is actually criticism by an RS on the subject. François Robere (talk) 22:28, 7 May 2018 (UTC)

Don't you know that Haaretz, The Forward, The Times of Israel, and The Jerusalem Post, which we cite in some Wikipedia articles, are all peer-reviewed, scholarly, unbiased reliable sources, in contrast to these Polish non-peer-reviewed, unscholarly, biased, nationalist, wrong-wing, non-English-language non-reliable-source publications? Nihil novi (talk) 01:36, 8 May 2018 (UTC)

Many internet web portals (and some newspapers) do not pass RSN. See WP:DAILYMAIL.Icewhiz (talk) 03:54, 8 May 2018 (UTC)

On the RS spectrum of WSJ / Fox News / Breitbart / WND - wPolityce would probably fall around Breitbart which we generally reject as a source (beyond the actual issue that what is reported is a copy of Facebook posts by a diplomat).Icewhiz (talk) 04:47, 8 May 2018 (UTC)

Speaking of WP:FORUM and editorializing, that's not true and you're not backing up your assertion in any way. It's definitely not like Breitbart. Fox News? Maybe. Or maybe even more mainstream than that. So yeah, like it or not, by Wikipedia's standards, it's a reliable source, though I wouldn't use it myself.Volunteer Marek (talk) 16:40, 9 May 2018 (UTC)

No information source or authority tells the truth all the time, or lies all the time. Part of our job is to critically weigh the evidence. Nihil novi (talk) 05:55, 8 May 2018 (UTC)

WP:TRUTH is not a goal. WP:BALASP of WP:RS is.Icewhiz (talk) 06:21, 8 May 2018 (UTC)

But this isn't the point. When we cite them in this context, we usually cite either an interview with a scholar, or the scholar itself (eg. Daniel Baltman, who occasionally writes in Haaretz). We don't Cite a journalist who has no particular expertise criticising a scholar who has expertise. François Robere (talk) 06:53, 8 May 2018 (UTC)

Oh yea? So some journalist Ofer Aderet from Haaretz you cited should be removed as a reference then. [14]GizzyCatBella (talk) 10:00, 8 May 2018 (UTC)

You didn't read the article, did you? It includes an interview with Grabowski, commentary by Timothy Snyder, quotes from the book and observations of Polish media response. François Robere (talk) 12:55, 8 May 2018 (UTC)

wpolityce is perfectly reliable source,I see no reason to remove it.--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 16:02, 8 May 2018 (UTC)

It is not when we are discussing serious criticism of academic work. A newspaper which has an interview with someone on an academic subject is reliable insofar that the interviewee is a reliable source. As established above, Grabowski is, the Polish ambassador isn't. WP:DEADHORSE. 198.84.253.202 (talk) 21:24, 8 May 2018 (UTC)

And insofar as the journalist does not distort what the "reliable source" says, as apparently a lady journalist at Haaretz distorted what Jan Grabowski told her, thereby spreading the rumor about "200,000" Jews killed by Poles. Nihil novi (talk) 22:25, 8 May 2018 (UTC)

Grabowski said "directly or indirectly" - and from the sources above, it is not the journalists who quote him that distorted that into "200k killed [directly] by Poles" - rather, it's the (yes, mostly Polish, but nevermind) critics. 198.84.253.202 (talk) 00:24, 9 May 2018 (UTC)

It's a male, not a female, at Haaretz - and Haaretz reported Grabowski's claim quite accurately - saying "directly and indirectly". It would seem that some fringe Polish-language publications reported second hand on what Grabowski said to Haaretz - in an inaccurate manner - that reflects on use of those sources - not on Haaretz or Grabowski.Icewhiz (talk) 06:34, 9 May 2018 (UTC)

What the heck does "directly and indirectly" mean exactly?? This kind of vague language is endemic of Grabowski and other "academics" who write about the Holocaust and Poland. Someone can interpret it as Poles personally killed almost 200,000 Jews, or that close to 200,000 Jews died as a result of Polish collaboration. That's why the Gazeta Wyborcza source is useful because it clarifies the original "directly and indirectly" meaning. --E-960 (talk) 15:40, 9 May 2018 (UTC)

• Indirectly quite obviously (if you read the interview beyond the headline, or are familiar with the subject matter) means handing over the Jews to someone else (the Nazies, usually) who then killed them.
• As for the ambassador.... An ambassador representing a political party with some unaccepted (per most scholars) views on the role of Poles in WWII (Two Senior Polish Ministers Deny Poles' Involvement in Massacres of Jews) is not a WP:RS. It is actually quite a WP:QS. There are some great Polish sources out there. However, we shouldn't place UNDUE emphasis on Polish views - the Holocaust, WWII, and Polish involvement have been studied extensively world wide - and we should reflect the worldwide balance on the subject. Governmental views on history (particularly at the ambassadorial level - but this would be also true at the presedential level) - carry very little weight - they should not be present in historical articles in Wikipedia (unless analyzed widely in a secondary manner - as such views are PRIMARY from a non-RS), but perhaps in the articles on the government or people making such stmts - while clearly representing the academic consensus on the matter the government official is referring to.Icewhiz (talk) 16:01, 9 May 2018 (UTC)

No, it's not "quite obvious" when someone is new to the subject, so stop assuming everyone is well versed in this topic, so that you can use contextual shortcuts to address complicated statements. Also, the ambassador Dr. Jakub Kumoch, has a background in academia as a political scientist and worked for three research institutes. Btw, don't for a second think that just cause some historian like Grabowski or anyone else for that matter is a "scholar" that they do not carry a political or an ideological affiliation and remain neutral. --E-960 (talk) 16:11, 9 May 2018 (UTC)}}

Icewhiz, NO CONSENSUS HAS BEEN REACHED DO NOT DELETE THE STATEMENTS OR I WILL REPORT YOU TO ADMINS FOR DISRUPTIVE BEHAVIOR AND VANDALISM. --E-960 (talk) 16:14, 9 May 2018 (UTC)

WP:ONUS is on you to include. We also already discussed this in RSN - Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 240#Holocaust history: Polish ambassador facebook post covered by wpolityce, and op-ed by Piotr Zaremba - the content you added was a BLP vio, as well, as it misrepresented the source to say that Grabowski said something when in fact it was the ambassador saying things (on Facebook) about Grabowski - which per the RSN dicussion should (if included at all) be attributed to the ambassador.Icewhiz (talk) 16:17, 9 May 2018 (UTC)

Listen Icewhiz, the last time I check in the above discussion there are 5 editors who agree that Gazeta Wyborcza reference is reliable Nihil novi, MyMoloboaccount, GizzyCatBella, 198.84.253.202 and me (against 2, you and FR). So, I don't know how the heck you have the nerve to assume that you can reasonably delete that statement, and as for the wPolityce text, the discussion is 4 to 3 in favor of keeping. So what you just did is vandalism. --E-960 (talk) 16:23, 9 May 2018 (UTC)

I restored it, please let me know if I did it corectly.GizzyCatBella (talk) 16:27, 9 May 2018 (UTC)

Btw, the original text form wPolityce (which was removed earlier) is not what I used — that text if you compare, analyzed the number of escapes form the Ghettos and how Grabowski arrived at that number (which was a bit out of place), while this new text focuses on the overall approach of Grabowski instead of focusing on just one part. You can see the difference if you just look at the two texts—very different. --E-960 (talk) 16:35, 9 May 2018 (UTC)

The Gazeta Wyborcza statement is still missing after being deleted, even though the consensus is that it's a reliable source. --E-960 (talk) 19:21, 9 May 2018 (UTC)

You can add me to the count of 5, so 6 to 1, that Gazeta Wyborcza is reliable - I stated so above. That is not the question at all - it is reliable, definitely for an interview of Grabowski (and much more, being a rather leading Polish newspaper) - it is simply not needed, as it has Grabowski repeating exactly the same stmt he has been saying/writing for years. The Facebook post of the Polish ambassador (reported by wpolityce - which is not a RS - but attributed anyway to the ambassador's facebook) - is a separate matter. At the minimum it must, per policy, be attributed to the ambassador. It is also UNDUE for inclusion, the ambassador not being an expert in the field.Icewhiz (talk) 19:25, 9 May 2018 (UTC)

The question posed here is if GW is reliable, not if it's needed (most editors understand it as such). As for wPolityce, I don't mind if the text states that this reference was made by the current Polish ambassador and political scientist Dr. Jakub Kumoch. He might not be a WWII expert, but he is an academic, and political science and history are related — so we are not talking about a microbiologist talking about history. --E-960 (talk) 19:35, 9 May 2018 (UTC)

Actually that's not the question. If the interview itself merely repeates what he already said earlier, then there's no need for it; if you use that interview to editorialize and imply that he's somehow inconsistent or unreliable, then that's a violation of any number of policies. What exactly does the piece say? François Robere (talk) 20:43, 9 May 2018 (UTC)

Most editors agree that the source is reliable, thus it can be part of the article, and those editors did not say it reliable but let's remove it. --E-960 (talk) 04:17, 11 May 2018 (UTC)

That a source is reliable (has anyone said otherwise for GW? I guess we would have to consider in newer reporting possible holocaust law censorship), is a neccesary but not sufficient criteria for inclusion, as we have several other policies as well as common sense and editor discretion. In this case, repeating that Grabowski said this again in 2018 to GW has little purpose - there is no need to list every media outlet in which he said this (and there are quite a few - in English and in Polish). Had this been an article about Media appearances by Grabowski it might be relevant. In this article - not.Icewhiz (talk) 04:50, 11 May 2018 (UTC)

I do suggest constructively that if you want to use the "not personally" language - that you tack this on to one sentence (with a , perhaps in between) discussing his 200,000 estimate, and based on a multitude of sources.Icewhiz (talk) 05:18, 11 May 2018 (UTC)

It's essential information that seems to be very relevant having Grabowski here.GizzyCatBella (talk) 05:33, 11 May 2018 (UTC)

I agree, this statement is very relevant. These are Grabowski's own words directly from the newspaper interview: "Nigdy nie mówiłem o 200 tys. Żydów zamordowanych własnoręcznie przez Polaków". It says, just what is in the article now. --E-960 (talk) 16:32, 11 May 2018 (UTC)

@E-960: Here is why, whether reliable source or not, that text does not go in the article.
In the preceding sentence, Grabowski is quoted as saying "200,000 Jews 'were killed directly or indirectly by the Poles'". This is, as demonstrated above, rather clear and says exactly what it needs to say. The following sentence (the one you absolutely wish to be kept) is, per above, presented out of context, because "some Polish right-wing publicists said Grabowski said something he hadn't said - Gazeta Wyborcza was asking him to set the record straight". We can keep the reference, but there is no reason to have another sentence to discuss this when it is already clearly explained that the 200k number refers to both "directly or indirectly". Having the sentence also brings an element of doubt (by having the reader ask: did he contradict himself?) which is both false (there is no doubt - this is what Grabowski has always said, period.) and only serves to further the "Grabowski is unprofessional" OR-criticism. 198.84.253.202 (talk) 14:28, 12 May 2018 (UTC)

Again, I will repeat most editors agree that the source is reliable, thus it can be part of the article, and those editors did NOT say it's reliable but it should be removed. Also, if you look at the top, this discussion was never about what you are now advocating. Thus, the final word is that the MAJORITY of editors agree with the 'Gazeta Wyborcza' text and it was affirmed by this edit [15], so this issue is resloved. --E-960 (talk) 15:19, 12 May 2018 (UTC)

Can you read English? FR above says "If the interview itself merely repeates what he already said earlier, then there's no need for it". Icewhiz says "That a source is reliable is a neccesary but not sufficient criteria for inclusion, as we have several other policies as well as common sense and editor discretion. In this case, repeating that Grabowski said this again in 2018 to GW has little purpose". This discussion is about that section, and anyway I'm not going to further fragment this discussion by creating another section when this same issue has been discussed above. As for "majority", of the 6 editors who participated in this section, 3 (Me, FR, Icewhiz) are against keeping the sentence, 2 (You, Bella) are for, and 1 (Nihil Novi) hasn't stated his opinion directly. Assuming Nihil Novi sides with you, that would still be 50-50. And since you wanted to include the sentence but the proposal has not gained consensus (or even a majority, but consensus is not a vote and it is usually stronger than a simple majority), then it can be removed. The nearest thing to a consensus/compromise I can find is Icewhiz proposing to "if you want to use the "not personally" language - that you tack this on to one sentence (with a , perhaps in between) discussing his 200,000 estimate, and based on a multitude of sources." I would support this if it can be worked out, but the current sentence (which is out of context and has plenty of other issues) cannot stay. 198.84.253.202 (talk) 15:29, 12 May 2018 (UTC)

• No this text and citation is useful because it clarifies an ambiguous statement. Perfect example of it is when an Israeli mayor said referencing Grabowski's work: "Polish farmers killed 200,000 Jews during the war".[16] But, in that interview with Gazeta Wyborcza, Grabowski clarified that he did not mean to imply that all 200,000 Jews were killed personally by Poles. So, now it's clear why you are so heck-bent on removing the GW text, and to answer your sarcastic question, I can read and also understand motives. --E-960 (talk) 17:16, 12 May 2018 (UTC)

  Most of the world sees little difference between handing someone over, knowing he will be killed (and possibly rewarded for doing so) - and killing by one's own hand.Icewhiz (talk) 17:26, 12 May 2018 (UTC)

So,out of those alleged 200,000 how many were captured or denounced by the "Jewish Gestapo" did Grabowski even bother to take that fact into consideration? Oh, another uncomfortable question. Just blame those victims on the Poles as well. That's why Grabowski's work has serious issues and shows clear bias towards Poles, and that why such statements as GW and needed. --E-960 (talk) 17:39, 12 May 2018 (UTC)

Can we keep thus focused in the article please?Slatersteven (talk) 17:55, 12 May 2018 (UTC)

Jewish Gestapo specialized in tracking people outside the Ghettos.[17] The number of victims is running into thousands (Jews and Poles helping them). 200 thousands of Grabowski minus the above thousands?

After all, Grabowski came up with the 200.000 number subtracting the figure of escapees with the number of survivors. See? Grabowski's work has serious issues as per comment above. That's why his own explanation what he meant is crucial to have it in the article.GizzyCatBella (talk) 17:59, 12 May 2018 (UTC)

And, tell me, do you happen to be an academic who specializes in this topic area, and who published this in an academic journal? Obviously not, so whether you like it, or not or even whether you think you are right is irrelevant - we need serious sources, not newspapers (which are not known to always be exact, nor are representative of academic research) or Wikipedians (who are really not reliable)... 198.84.253.202 (talk) 02:10, 13 May 2018 (UTC)

What part of the fact that this discussion is done to you not get? Because François Robere in this edit [18] used a compromise solution, and the Edit Summary states (→‎The Holocaust: Per talk). So, just cause you don't like the outcome does not mean we'll just start every thing from the beginning, cause you're throwing a hissy fit. --E-960 (talk) 13:23, 13 May 2018 (UTC)

Be nice. Their argument is valid. They probably didn't notice that edit, and that's okay. Notify them civilly at that's it. François Robere (talk) 13:58, 13 May 2018 (UTC)

References

1 million estimated collaborators attributed by Friedrich Klaus-Peter to Madajczyk=failed verification

Friedrich cites Czeslaw Madajczyk, "'Teufelswerk': Die nationalsozialistische Besatzungspolitikin Polen," in Eva Rommerskirchen, ed., Deutsche und Polen 1945-1995: Annaherungen-Zblizenia (Dusseldorf, 1996), p. 146 as source for his claim about million collaborators.

There is no information about collaborators by Madajczyk on page 146. Page 146 is about Polish Solidarity movement in article by Grzegorz Leszczynski. As such I will remove this information and suggest strongly reviewing any information given by Friedrich Klaus. --MyMoloboaccount (talk) 21:13, 8 May 2018 (UTC)

I think it best if we just don't give any number in the lead. Now stop focusing on details and try reaching consensus on more controversial matters. 198.84.253.202 (talk) 21:26, 8 May 2018 (UTC)

You may tag it, but not remove it. We've had worse sources kept here by other editors, and I don't see a reason to except this one. I'd like to see the source, if you happen to have it in PDF form. François Robere (talk) 07:21, 9 May 2018 (UTC)

No, it will be removed since it presents a strong claim based on source that doesn't contain this information.We can't keep information that has been objectively proven false.--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 10:17, 9 May 2018 (UTC)

You didn't prove it false, you merely didn't find it. Friedrich is not known for factual errors. I want another verification, or to see the source myself. François Robere (talk) 11:28, 9 May 2018 (UTC)

You didn't prove it false, you merely didn't find it.I checked page 146, different author, different subject. I am pretty sure that this is the definition of not being there.It falls on to you to find such information, not me.Until you find it, the false claim is out.--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 11:34, 9 May 2018 (UTC)

You already said that earlier and was wrong. I want either the source, or another verification. As I said earlier: We've kept around claims that are even less substantiated because some editors insisted on it (eg. the non-existent "Israeli War Crimes Commission", or the poorly-sourced "baiting" claim); Friedrich is not known for factual errors and there's no reason not give him the benefit of the doubt. François Robere (talk) 12:02, 9 May 2018 (UTC)

François Robere, are you not able to check the Madajczyk reference yourself? Nihil novi (talk) 12:12, 9 May 2018 (UTC)

I do not have the book on hand, and it will take time procuring. In the meanwhile, there's no reason not to tag the claim instead of removing it. François Robere (talk) 12:20, 9 May 2018 (UTC)

François has a point, at this time it has only failed verification. If after bit of time no corroboration is produced then we can remove it.Slatersteven (talk) 12:44, 9 May 2018 (UTC)

If someone can provide the text or a link to it, I'll be glad to review it and translate any pertinent passages. Nihil novi (talk) 13:26, 9 May 2018 (UTC)

Above is not a problem, I will upload a scan of table of contents showing clearly that page 146 is by different author on different subject.--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 17:16, 9 May 2018 (UTC)

There,page 141 to 152 is an article about Solidarity by Grzegorz Leszczynski[19]--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 17:36, 9 May 2018 (UTC)

English translation of the table-of-contents item: "'Solidarity': The trade union in the role of political modifier of authorities" [by] Grzegorz Leszczyński, [pp.] 141[-152]".

So, François Robere, it seems that Friedrich Klaus-Peter, who you say above "is not known for factual errors", is in error here.

Nihil novi (talk) 21:52, 9 May 2018 (UTC)

And is there a Madajczyk text anywhere in there? This store offers the book with one. François Robere (talk) 17:57, 9 May 2018 (UTC)

Sorry it has not failed verification, a table of contents is not a complete list of everything in a chapter. Yes the fact it is about Solidarity is not a good sign. But it is also not proof.Slatersteven (talk) 12:34, 10 May 2018 (UTC)

Agree (WP:COMMONSENSE) with Slatersteven, it is very possible that there is a (passing?) mention of Friedrich on page 146 without the number being the main subject discussed in the 'Solidarity' section. 198.84.253.202 (talk) 01:15, 11 May 2018 (UTC)

I'm thinking more about a page error, because the books is supposed to have an article by Madajczyk. I've asked for a library to acquire it, I expect a reply in a couple of weeks. François Robere (talk) 05:06, 11 May 2018 (UTC)

I have read the book and there is nothing about Friedrich on page 146, and nothing about 1 million collaborators in article by Madajczyk as far as I could read.

I also don't recollect seeing that claim in the book, so no, until it is proven to be in the book, this claim is out.GizzyCatBella (talk) 05:37, 11 May 2018 (UTC)

You won't be the one to make that decision, Bella. MyMoloboaccount, are you in possession of the right edition? He cited a particular one. François Robere (talk) 06:47, 11 May 2018 (UTC)

Since we have people claiming they have read the source and it is wrong: to avoid any doubts, please scan / photograph the page from the correct edition (also the edition first page) and link it here from an image host. I think this is the only way to dispel the doubts. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 08:06, 11 May 2018 (UTC)

I want more than that: If it's a page error, but the article is in the book (as the contents here suggest), we need that article. François Robere (talk) 12:50, 11 May 2018 (UTC)

I have uploaded some images from German version that is used[20]. The table of contents lists the same pages , there is nothing about 1 million collaborators on page 146 and I couldn'f find such information in Madajczyk's article. Obviously I am not going to scan 30 or so pages, if François Robere wants he can find the book himself and present us with precise information, I couldn't find it.--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 18:54, 13 May 2018 (UTC)

Correct - the claim of "1 million" is out. GizzyCatBella (talk) 18:59, 13 May 2018 (UTC)

I'll take this in good faith. However, the scan itself has multiple problems - the top of the page is unreadable/missing and we can't see the page number - is this indeed p. 146 or not? 198.84.253.202 (talk) 03:27, 14 May 2018 (UTC)

RfC: Reliable sources

Are the Polish's ambassador Facebook posts, as reported by wPolityce (pl), a reliable source? 21:23, 11 May 2018 (UTC)

• Comment

Reporting on Twitter and/or Facebook comments is standard practice in mainstream news, as seen in this example here: [21] --E-960 (talk) 09:14, 12 May 2018 (UTC)

Comment to the comment: the issue is not that the comments were on social media. Generally, even though mainstream news report on such comments, the comments themselves usually fail to be a reliable source on anything but what they say (i.e. they are a primary source), per WP:FACEBOOK. Also, we must give due weight to differing viewpoints. The opinion of the Polish ambassador might be worth mention since it is after all from the Polish government. However, it also has a lot of issues since it comes from a politician (who might have all sorts of reason to slightly "modify" the truth to fit his agenda - but its not like somebody ever did that..., right?). Also, we are using a self-published statement on Facebook (WP:SOCIALMEDIA) to support a controversial claim - the Polish media might have covered it since it is from a locally important political figure, but WP:NOTNEWS clearly applies and we have no obligation (or really, good reason) to give anything more than a passing mention, since the comments were not published in a reliable, academic-level journal or book (which is where Grabowski published his estimate...) 198.84.253.202 (talk) 12:41, 12 May 2018 (UTC)

Survey

• No Per previous discussion in the "Editorializing" section. 198.84.253.202 (talk) 21:23, 11 May 2018 (UTC)
• No. François Robere (talk) 21:31, 11 May 2018 (UTC)
• Yes. Wpolityce [22] newspaper is an entirely reliable source by Wikipedia's standards. Polish ambassador Dr. Jakub Kumoch [23] is a political scientist.GizzyCatBella (talk) 02:00, 12 May 2018 (UTC)
• No. While Wpolityce (which I think would fail RSN generally) would probably be reliable enough for the existence of the Facebook posts (which can be verified on Facebook as well) - the Facebook posts by a non expert political person (with a phd in pol science and experience in politics and communication) are not a RS for WWII history in general. We also have a censorship/legal issue since these posts were made after the 2018 law limiting discourse on Polish Holocaust complicity - though that is overshadowed here by this being a non-expert, on Facebook, which is UNDUE and is not a RS for anything beyond their non-notable opinion.Icewhiz (talk) 03:41, 12 May 2018 (UTC)
• Yes. The wPolityce news online portal is reliable, with it's weekly news&opinion magazine available in all newsstands nationwide, generating profits through advertising and sales, it's staff has credentials working previously for other mainstream news media outlets such as Newsweek Polska, Rzeczpospolita, TVP Wiadomośc, etc. it also hosts interviews with conservative mainstream academics and politicians (including ministers, ambassadors and professors). To argue that this is a "fringe" outlet (like some blog done out of a basement) is misleading. Also, Dr. Jakub Kumoch's statements (who is the Polish ambassador to Switzerland, and an academic before taking over the role of ambassador), are reliable, and can be used to highlight criticism of Grabowski's research. --E-960 (talk) 07:24, 12 May 2018 (UTC)

How much of it is also true for the Daily Mail? François Robere (talk) 07:45, 12 May 2018 (UTC)

A manipulative statement made only to perpetuate the perception that wPolityce is some kind of a tabloid. But, yes in today's media environment anything that's conservative is labelled as fringe, tabloid or fake news. --E-960 (talk) 07:52, 12 May 2018 (UTC)

Not really. There's a host of reliable conservative-leaning outlets [24]. François Robere (talk) 08:20, 12 May 2018 (UTC)

Hahaha... funny, that chart has CBS as neutral, in one CBS Evening News broadcast they started out the program with news that President Trump got in a Tweet exchange with Rosie O'donnel... again, see here: [25]. So you see, reporting on Facebook or Tweets is common practice in "mainstream' news. --E-960 (talk) 09:01, 12 May 2018 (UTC)

You've been off-topic on this for a while. The question isn't the reporting itself, but the "who" and the "what" of the claims. Trump wasn't reported as an RS on O'Donnell, and were he not who he is he wouldn't have been reported at all. François Robere (talk) 13:09, 12 May 2018 (UTC)

• yes & no. The facebook posts are not RS for facts (he is not an expert inn the filed), the report of them is RS for the fact he said it.Slatersteven (talk) 07:40, 12 May 2018 (UTC)

He is an academic (political science) and was involved in topics related to WWII, here is an interview with PolskieRadio regarding another Holocaust related topic [26]. Also, here is an article in [Rzeczpospolita]] one of the oldest and most established news papers in Poland, which notes Dr. Jakub Kumoch's comments, and also states about Grabowski "Grabowski also has difficulty in proving in his journalistic statements that every Jew who had earlier escaped German transports was murdered because of Polish 'complicity'." [27] --E-960 (talk) 07:57, 12 May 2018 (UTC)

"academic" does not mean "expert is all fields". Is he a recognized expert on WW2 (oh and writing about WW2 does not make you an expert of the holocaust, as I think David Irving might be able to demonstrate)Slatersteven (talk) 08:55, 12 May 2018 (UTC)

We're focusing too much on the internet portal wPolityce. What is relevant is whether the facebook (or random saying otherwise) sayings of a Polish diplomat are relevant. Frankly - even if these was a reknowned holocaust scholar making a facebook post (not peer reviewed) we should be having a discussion on whether to include. In this case we have a nobody in ww2 history making a facebook post - it is not a RS for anything beyond the ambassador's opinion, and the ambassador's opinion as a nobody in the field - is UNDUE.Icewhiz (talk) 08:59, 12 May 2018 (UTC)

• CBS Nightly News reported as the first story of the program on President Trump's Tweet to Rosie O'Donnell, see here [28] this is a legitimate mainstream practice. --E-960 (talk) 09:03, 12 May 2018 (UTC)

• Lest we get sidetracked yet again - Kumoch is not Trump. Kumoch has no credentials in historical research, and holds a mid-level diplomatic post. Had he published this as an oped in some mainstream newspaper - it still would not merit inclusion, as the ambassador's opinions on the Polish role in the Holocaust are irrelevant.Icewhiz (talk) 09:46, 12 May 2018 (UTC)

• Yes. Wpolityce is a reliable source of information and statements of the ambassador are reliable in regards to his position as a notable representative of Polish government in context of debating of Grabowski's exaggerated allegations(which frankly shouldn't be on this page, but this is a seperate matter).--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 09:48, 12 May 2018 (UTC)

• No (do not include): a WP:UNDUE opinion by a political appointee and not an expert on the collaboration during WW2 or the Holocaust. Given the high profile of the book, surely expert opinions published in peer-reviewed publications are available. My suggestion would be to use them instead. --K.e.coffman (talk) 15:24, 12 May 2018 (UTC)
• Do not include: The RS question is a bit of a red-herring, the first source probably generally is RS, whilst Wpolityce is probably RS that a Facebook post was made by the Ambassador. However in so far as these are criticisms of historical methodology and content, better sources should exist from historians published in one of the two relevant topic areas (WWII Poland or Holocaust). I am persuaded by the arguments of Icewhiz and K.e.coffman that inclusion would be WP:UNDUE. Pincrete (talk) 21:58, 12 May 2018 (UTC)
• Yes. an ambassadorship is a formal government post, statements made by an official have a degree of credibility attached to them--91.90.182.130 (talk) 14:37, 13 May 2018 (UTC) — 91.90.182.130 (talk) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

They have a degree of credibility attached to them as a governmental opinion. However, it is only "a degree of credibility" and it largely depends on a lot of other factors (i.e., it is not an automatic pass). Furthermore, being in a government does not make a person who says something an expert on the matter (or even a reliable source - politicans are sometimes not really honest, especially when it caters to their voter base) 198.84.253.202 (talk) 21:22, 13 May 2018 (UTC)

• No, because the speaker is not an authoritative source. Sentiments like "Wpolityce newspaper is an entirely reliable source by Wikipedia's standards" are irrelevant, and fundamentally misunderstand our core content policies. There is no such thing as source that is categorically reliable for everything. Newspapers are presumptively reliable for secondary-source material of a journalistic nature, nothing more. Many things published in newspapers are not secondary but primary, and are not reliable for anything other than "the person who wrote this piece expressed this particular view" (WP:ABOUTSELF) (editorials, op-eds, opinion columns, subjective book reviews, advertisements, humor pieces, and various other things found in newspapers – even some feature articles, if they are highly personal investigative journalism pieces with a slant and which cannot be fact-checked beyond what the author wrote). Some newspaper material is also tertiary, e.g. sidebar tables of regurgitated statistics – we would not cite those, but the original source(s) of the stats. The ambassador's posts are a primary source, not secondary. The newspaper can confirm that they were made (as can Facebook itself, so whether they exist was never in question, ergo we need no newspaper source for them – it's a redundant cite). The paper cannot confirm the veracity of their message, the correctness of the ambassador's assertions.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  08:57, 16 May 2018 (UTC)

Threaded discussion

• There's nothing in the ambassador's position as such that makes it particularly reliable in the context of historical research. François Robere (talk) 21:31, 11 May 2018 (UTC)
• Please also see Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard#Holocaust history: Polish ambassador facebook post covered by wpolityce, and op-ed by Piotr Zaremba where uninvolved editors (there are involved comments in the end) thought this was reliable only for the ambassador's opinion.Icewhiz (talk) 03:44, 12 May 2018 (UTC)
• RS for what?. Also if you are sourcing a report of the posts, it is that source (not the posts) that would be the RS (or not) not the thing they report on.Slatersteven (talk) 07:36, 12 May 2018 (UTC)

Technically this should be at RSN, it might get more feedback.Slatersteven (talk) 07:35, 12 May 2018 (UTC)

Here is a similar article about ambasador's comment found on MSN Wiadomosci [29], now you can't argue that MSN collects news from "fringe" sources. --E-960 (talk) 07:49, 12 May 2018 (UTC)

I will also point out that notability and reliability are not the same thing.Slatersteven (talk) 11:43, 12 May 2018 (UTC)

Unfinished business

There are a number of issues about this article which were opened on the Talk page several weeks ago (see Archive 4, for example) and have been left unfinished, presumably diverted by the flame wars and WP:ARBEE restrictions that have ensued. I'll start with what I said at the time was the most important issue, because it can help bring about article stability. This is to open with a 'definition of terms' section, covering the scope of the article. Even The Holocaust has a 'Terminology and definition' section. Let's get back to that now. -Chumchum7 (talk) 13:23, 19 May 2018 (UTC)

What is it you want it to say?Slatersteven (talk) 13:31, 19 May 2018 (UTC)

The real question would seem to be, What does the article want to say? What is its actual subject? Are all the editors talking about the same thing? What is "collaboration", in this context?

Nihil novi (talk) 13:42, 19 May 2018 (UTC)

Slatersteven, firstly, an explanation about why 'collaboration' and 'antisemitism' are two different words, and to what extent they mean different things. One explanation comes from Saul Friedländer who speaks of a paradox specific to occupied Poland: “Precisely because Polish anti-Semitism was not tainted by any trace of collaboration with the Germans, it could prosper — not only in the street but also in the underground press, in political parties, and in the armed forces.” For Friedländer, one can be an antisemite (even a murderous one) while not being a collaborator; he appears to be generalizing that Poles did not collaborate, even though many were antisemites, including murderous ones. Friedländer's position calls into question the very rationale for this article. By contrast, other sources may well define any killing of Jews during the Holocaust as collaboration - in which case, we must include those sources in this proposed section too. -Chumchum7 (talk) 13:51, 19 May 2018 (UTC)

@Chumchum7: For good form, when adding references to a talk page discussion, you should use {{reftalk}} to make sure the references appear in the vicinity of where you cite them (not much difference in this particular case, since the discussion was at the bottom anyway, but...) 198.84.253.202 (talk) 21:06, 19 May 2018 (UTC)

References

The section does have a statement referencing historian John Connelly who addresses exactly the issue you are raising, regarding the two view points on 'collaboration' and 'anti-Jewish sentiment'. At this point, I actually do think that this issue was addressed and resolved. In the end, this is an article on collaboration, and to overly concentrate on anti-semitism creates un-due weight. --E-960 (talk) 15:14, 19 May 2018 (UTC)

Jews stood up to the German army in the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising - from the quoted article. False - the desctruction of the Ghetto was a police action. Xx236 (talk) 07:35, 21 May 2018 (UTC)

Cultural collaboration - the underground was very strict regarding culture. A number of journalists were killed or almost killed as collaborators. Actors weren't allowed to work. Such collaboration was defined and punished, but not mentioned here. Xx236 (talk) 07:45, 21 May 2018 (UTC)

True. There was even a saying, "Tylko świnie siedzą w kinie" ("Only swine go to the movies"). The collaborating actor Igo Sym was executed by the Polish underground.

Please add a section on cultural collaboration. Thanks.

Nihil novi (talk) 17:05, 21 May 2018 (UTC)

A source, please??? 198.84.253.202 (talk) 22:45, 21 May 2018 (UTC)

Collaboration by individual artists or journalists would just fall under the section of Individual Collaboration, no need to create another category. --E-960 (talk) 14:58, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

The civilian underground defined rules for actors and journalists, not for individuals. Both groups influenced the society and were punished.Xx236 (talk) 06:22, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

Academic book about the GG

https://www.hsozkult.de/publicationreview/id/rezbuecher-24802 Xx236 (talk) 12:17, 21 May 2018 (UTC)

Particularly interesting, the following (section of a) paragraph is particularly on topic and could be summarized and inserted into the article:

The Germans made the Holocaust happen, but Winstone notes that Jewish suffering and deaths increased because of common attitudes among locals that did not see the Jews as part of their own. While he argues that only a minority of gentiles actively persecuted the Jews, he also makes clear that only a minority actively assisted the Jews. Winstone also downplays claims regarding the purported Polish lack of agency in saving Jews in occupied Poland (pp. 181–184). As he observes, the propensity not to help was due more to human nature rather than national predilections, but the result was no less deadly: “The Holocaust was made possible at every stage by moral choices” (p. 186).

198.84.253.202 (talk) 22:50, 21 May 2018 (UTC)

Too much, at this point the article already addresses this very topic with statements from historians John Connelly and Klaus-Peter Friedrich, to add yet another paragraph creates issues of un-due weight, because equating "passivity" with collaboration is not an universal view held by scholars. But, if a sentence includes balanced key points summarizing all four sentences above then maybe. --E-960 (talk) 14:52, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

198.84.253.202 - the majority of Polish Jews did not see themselves as Polish. Xx236 (talk) 06:11, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

@Xx236: Source, please? And, even with a source, how is this even relevant to the above material? @E-960: Obviously, yes, the information should be summarized, as I suggested. I was just listing it so that we have something to start with. 198.84.253.202 (talk) 14:43, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

You quote biased description of GG and you don't see my answer to be relevant. Strange.Xx236 (talk) 06:29, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

So? I fail to see the relevance of that.Slatersteven (talk) 14:46, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

I gave it a try, and included a sentence summarizing Winstone's remarks as noted above. --E-960 (talk) 15:31, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

I still fail to see the relevance, what does it matter if they did not see themselves as Polish?Slatersteven (talk) 15:37, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

The self-isolation of Jews influenced Poles. There existed almost no family relation between the two groups and frequently existed economical conflict.Xx236 (talk) 06:29, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

And this is your opinion or can you give us a source for it? It still lacks pertinence - we do not need to justify why the Poles (mostly) didn't help: such a statement, in addition to being likely WP:OR, would be highly controversial and saying it in WP:WikiVoice would be a very bad idea neutrality-wise, and this article already has enough POV problems as is. 198.84.253.202 (talk) 13:53, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

@E-960: The sentence as currently in the article lacks the second part of the sentence in the source, which says "he also makes clear that only a minority actively assisted the Jews". This needs to be included too, so as not to misrepresent the source. 198.84.253.202 (talk) 15:43, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

198.84.253.202, you can add the second part, if you feel that it's worth mentioning, I don't see an issue. --E-960 (talk) 15:45, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

Except I can't add anything, because of this. The issue is remaining neutral and accurately representing the source. The text also too closely paraphrases the source. 198.84.253.202 (talk) 15:58, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

Ok, will add the full statement, reasonable enough. --E-960 (talk) 16:12, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

This page is about Collaboration in German-occupied Poland. Please explain the connection betwen it and only a minority actively assisted the Jews.Xx236 (talk) 07:55, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

@Xx236: Please explain the connection between "Collaboration in German-occupied Poland" and "Many Christian Poles, at high risk to themselves and their relatives, succeeded in protecting Jews from the Germans. " Wait, actually, you don't need to, because it is painfully obvious that the opposite of collaboration is resistance, and when treating of collaboration in a large geographical area, it would be unbalanced not to mention that there was resistance of some kind. 198.84.253.202 (talk) 13:53, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

Edit request

Remove "Poland was the first and one of the greatest victims of World War II." since it clearly fails MOS:FIRST and is also a blatant violation of WP:NPOV, giving an unattributed POV statement in the first sentence of the article (which already suffers enough POV problems as it is). 198.84.253.202 (talk) 22:55, 21 May 2018 (UTC)

I agree it's a bombastic line that comes across as egregious point-of-view editing more consistent with a political speech than an encyclopedia. A far greater percentage of the Roma and Sinti ethnicity than Poles were murdered by the Germans, and some data shoes greater percentage of Belorussians, Ukrainians and Lithuanians killed; in terms of total numbers, there were multiples more Chinese and Indonesians killed. Meanwhile the whole notion of who was a "first" victim is absurd: the Austrians have even had a go.

This said, instead of simply cutting, the line ought to be replaced with better language and moved lower down the lede. This would be to clarify the historians' consensus - and in spite of the potentially misleading title of the article here - that Poland was not a collaborative power such as Vichy France and did not have collaborative units such as the Croatian SS. I also insist that there's a requirement here for a brief differentiation between collaboration and other forms of wartime conduct, for example:

Historians such as Saul Friedländer reserve the term "collaboration" strictly for the institutional contribution to the German war effort by military units and political power, neither of which which was made by Poland.

This may also assist article stability in that it should help editors to stop arguing at cross-purposes.

The contribution of some Polish individuals to the Holocaust is sometimes referred to as collaboration in popular discourse, and I am looking for a reference that puts this fact in a nutshell, to use alongside the Friedländer line. Assistance in my search would be most welcome.

-Chumchum7 (talk) 02:30, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

Agree that a nuanced description is appropriate further down in the lead. However, this article isn't per se about the victims of Nazi atrocities in Poland (there is already an article about that, i.e. the one linked in the spurious sentence above).

The quote I gave in the preceeding section would be sufficient for giving a nuanced and accurate statement about collaboration (or rather, the [minimal] amount of Poles who collaborated) - but it makes no mention of collaboration, and given the standard set for describing people as "collaborators" in a previous RfC (and given that the possible synthesis there was less objectionable [since actually supported by sources which do directly mention collaboration and whose main topic is collaboration]), it might be insufficient. Somebody with access to the book could check whether the book itself makes a direct mention of collaboration in this context - in that case there could be no possible objection to including material sourced from the book. Nevertheless, it is still a great source for putting things into perspective and giving a neutral tone to the article.

Disagree that the title is misleading - there was indeed collaboration (to some extent, minimal yes, but still) in German-occupied Poland and this article's primary role is to describe it (again, no matter how minimal it is, so long the subject is notable and covered in reliable sources, and it clearly is).

Giving a statement on the conflicting definitions of collaboration would be helpful, yes. 198.84.253.202 (talk) 03:25, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

One could add that the word 'victim' connotes passivity, which makes its use inaccurate here because Poland was the only fully mobilized Allied belligerent fighting against Nazi Germany in the first six months of the war, and even by the war's end was the fourth biggest Allied contributor to the European theater, and the biggest in terms of service personnel per head of population. It's a matter of POV whether Poland was one of the greatest victims of Germany or one of the biggest contributors to the fight against Germany. So yes, let's reword the whole lede. If you could write a draft in italics below, I'll respond.-Chumchum7 (talk) 08:12, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

@GizzyCatBella: With or without a source, the sentence is POV and fails MOS:FIRST. @Chumchum7: If you wish you can go and boldly remove the offending sentence (since there was never consensus to include in the first place) [something which I would have done first place had I not been victim of a WP:ABF report of vandalism [30]. ] I'll follow up on the lead shortly, I have more pressing matters as of right now. 198.84.253.202 (talk) 13:29, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

I agree. This is a highly POVish stmt - and contested by other sources (regarding the "firstness") - it depends on how you count. This is the sort of style that would fit in a hagiography, not Wikipedia.Icewhiz (talk) 14:46, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

Also agree, this statement is more suited for an article on Poland's WWII casualties, but here (though related) it's not ideal to start the page with. --E-960 (talk) 14:56, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

 Done Clearly not NPOV statement removed by Icewhiz. There is clearly no WP:CONSENSUS to include this statement which was unsourced when added and does not reflect the body text as MOS:LEAD expects. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 18:20, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

Igo Sym

Igo Sym was an important collaborator, both a Gestapo agent and a Nazi propaganda worker. Xx236 (talk) 07:01, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

Source??? 198.84.253.202 (talk) 13:18, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

Not really, one actor is hardly anything to focus on, and his impact on the bigger picture was minimal. --E-960 (talk) 15:00, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

Was quite big, which made the AK to kill him.Xx236 (talk) 06:21, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

I still don't get - what should we do with this information? Is he the only one to have been killed by the Polish resistance? Of course no, so why should we start picking examples? Lets cover the topic first in a broader, general, neutral way and then we can start worrying about details such as naming examples of collaborators or people killed because they were allegedly collaborators. 198.84.253.202 (talk) 14:40, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

Communist collaboration

The Communists infomed Germans about Armia Krajowa activities. pl:Bogusław Hrynkiewicz pl:Czesław SkonieckiXx236 (talk) 07:07, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

Yes, but Polish communist collaboration is more notable in Soviet-occupied Poland 1939-41. This could well prompt a change of title and therefore scope from Collaboration in German-occupied Poland to Collaboration in Occupied Poland. I hereby request editors' show of hands about the change.-Chumchum7 (talk) 08:03, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

I don't think that this topic is part of this particular article, unless you are specifically talking about Polish Communists, but if it's Soviets than it's outside the scope of this article. --E-960 (talk) 14:44, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

Polish Workers' Party and it's military division Gwardia Ludowa, Armia Ludowa were Polish Communist organizations. Xx236 (talk) 08:02, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

Except those organizations are examples of resistance, not collaboration. They don't really go in this particular article. 198.84.253.202 (talk) 14:26, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

"The Communists infomed Germans about Armia Krajowa activities. pl:„Dezinformacja” Polskiej Partii Robotniczej, pl:Bogusław Hrynkiewicz, pl:Czesław Skoniecki", They informed the Nazis even about some former Communists. According to post-war Communist investigation 200 names were trasferred to Gestapo. Xx236 (talk) 06:08, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

WP:Wikipedia is not a reliable source - and I don't understand Polish anyway. 198.84.253.202 (talk) 13:55, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

There are hundreds of sources in Polish, but I haven't linked them, because you anyway.Xx236 (talk) 06:07, 8 June 2018 (UTC)

Szarota's article in Wyborcza

http://niniwa22.cba.pl/kolaboranci_pod_pregierzem.htm Xx236 (talk) 08:16, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

Can this be confirmed?Slatersteven (talk) 10:34, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

You may buy the original copy [31]. Szarota is a respected historian.Xx236 (talk) 11:10, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

So it can be verified as the original good.Slatersteven (talk) 11:14, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

http://niniwa22.cba.pl/problem_kolaboracji.htm Xx236 (talk) 11:18, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

I commend, to linguistically-misinformed colleagues, journalists, and scholars who write about Polish authors disingenously avoiding use of the term "collaboration" in connection with World War II Polish history, the final sentence in Tomasz Szarota's 1995 Gazeta Wyborcza article, linked above:

"Jeśli się nie mylę, określenia 'kolaborant' i 'kolaboracja', w odniesieniu do sytuacji w okupowanej Polsce, w ogóle nie występowały w naszej prasie konspiracyjnej."

In English:

"If I'm not mistaken, the terms 'collaborator' and 'collaboration', in relation to the situation in occupied Poland, did not appear at all in our underground [konspiracyjna] press."

Cognate words in different languages often carry different denotations. E.g., "konspiracyjna", above, is not "conspiracy" but "underground".

The Underground Poles did not speak of "kolaboracja" but of "współpraca", which, depending on context means either "cooperation" (there's that disingenuous Polish word !) or "collaboration".

Tread carefully in matters of language! And don't obfuscate through ignorance—or malice!

Nihil novi (talk) 12:21, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

"collaboration" does means "cooperation". Collaboration is just a type of cooperation (thus one does not exclude the other).Slatersteven (talk) 12:36, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

Obviously. And "appeasement" similarly means a "pacifying", "placating", or "bringing to peace".

Nihil novi (talk) 12:47, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

it also means "Appeasement in an international context is a diplomatic policy of making political or material concessions to an aggressive power in order to avoid conflict.", So it depends on context, what context is współpraca being used in?Slatersteven (talk) 12:52, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

Perhaps you missed the ignorant (malicious?) comments of some "experts" that the Poles refuse to call a spade ("collaboration") a spade and instead use the weasel-word, "cooperation". Nihil novi (talk) 13:12, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

No I saw it, I just ignored it. So I will ask again what kind of "cooperation" was it? Cooperation with a friend?, an ally?, A neighbor? Or was it cooperation with an occupation power?Slatersteven (talk) 13:44, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

Ohh and has any one actually suggested an edit or a way to improve the article here, if so I am missing it? If this is a rename request I see no issue with renaming the page "Polish cooperation with Nazi Germany".Slatersteven (talk) 13:55, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

Except this is an English language article, and WP:TITLE is rather clear that English language usage should be the one we use to determine article titles (per WP:CRITERIA#Naturalness). Given that all other similar pages are titled "[x country] collaboration with [y occupier]" or "Collaboration in [y]-occupied [x]", it would be against current project consensus to use "cooperation" instead (per WP:CRITERIA#Consistency). 198.84.253.202 (talk) 14:37, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

Reversal?

@E-960: Care to explain this recent reversal? It's not the first time you undo several of my (or someone else's) edits in one swipe, nor the first time you accuse me of removing material I didn't remove. This lack of attention to what you just reverted makes it seem like you didn't even bother to read it through, and just reverted the whole lot on a whim. Would you like to demonstrate good faith by explaining exactly what is it that you object? (with the relevant diffs) François Robere (talk) 19:42, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

You clearly removed content which was, yes, disputed, but without gaining a prior consensus. There are some portions which, I, personally, would have supported the removal of, some which I think is indeed POV pushing (on your part), and some which I am unsure about. Nevertheless, you should have brought up the issue on the talk page instead of being recklessly bold, especially given that this page is the subject of active sanctions and is otherwise controversial (this is in line with the recommendations given in the linked policy). As is stated in header, "If you are unsure if your edit is appropriate, discuss it here on this talk page first." - it would be safe to assume that, since you took part in the discussion which resulted in this page getting that header in the first place (here), you were well aware of this. 198.84.253.202 (talk) 22:20, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

If you think so feel free to take it to ANI. In the meanwhile, do show me where Policy states that if you disagree with some edits you should revert all of them, and without discussion. I didn't only remove content, but also restored content that was improperly removed, and fixed blatant distortions of sources. I reckon User:E-960 should've looked for alternatives to reversion and reverted only when necessary. François Robere (talk) 04:56, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

@François Robere: Its nothing actionable (at this stage), but given that previous attempts ([32][33]) to boldly remove or add such information as you see fit didn't work, you should try the talk page - it actually works (more than once)! Especially if you don't start your comment with a variant of assuming the other is a troll. @E-960: Agreed that you, by this point, should have answered FR's inquiry about this here.

Nevertheless, the onus is on he who wishes a change to be made (FR in this case) to get consensus for it. WP:ONUS could possibly apply, but in a controversial topic, it would be better not to game it and rather go for the usual practice of discussing any disputed change on the talk page instead. 198.84.253.202 (talk) 14:21, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

Nope - WP:ONUS applies to inclusion of material - not changes. Those who support inclusion of some material need to present a case (regardless of when it was added or how "stable" the version) - not the other way around. That being said - I do suggest attempting to make smaller changes - blanket reverts are unhelpful, but smaller steps here might elicit easier compromise.Icewhiz (talk) 14:49, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

@198.84.253.202: It's nothing actionable because I didn't break any rule. As for Talk - you've been in this situation yourself more than once [34][35][36], and I don't recall anyone giving you trouble over it.

@Icewhiz: The breadth of changes is a result of not having touched this article for nearly two weeks, during which other editors made some questionable changes, and others were kept despite previous discussions. However, I took care to make the changes fine-grained enough that it shouldn't be a problem for other editors to address specific ones. François Robere (talk) 15:33, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

No. You are performing volume changes, all at once, often rewriting the complete narrative of the sections. Keep in mind that others editors are not agreeing with you. OK? Mass changes? 1 -> discuss 2 -> get a consensus 3 -> proceed. GizzyCatBella (talk) 02:11, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

Being responsible for many of those narratives, you should know how wrong they are. I'm happy you mentioned agreement: After the word "failed" was removed during an RfC discussion, you quietly re-inserted it further down the paragraph. It's a particularly sneaky and dishonest change, don't you think? François Robere (talk) 11:18, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

“Failed” has been changed to “unsuccessful” I think, despite the source cited word “failed”. Somebody else restored “failed", but this is so minor issue that I'm rolling my eyes that you keep wasting your energy on it. There are few actual real issues in the article that I have identified with passing time, but I’ll let you figure it out. If you find it I’ll support you despite all the abuses and insults you have given me. BUT FIRST DISCUSS if you find it. Try also to realize that we are all sinful of being biased and making oversights (yes, that includes you FR). The trick is to be conscious of that fact. This might guide us to reach an understanding and find a compromise much easier.GizzyCatBella (talk) 13:02, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

Am I to understand you've no objections to this change? François Robere (talk) 14:09, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

The "failure" question has been addressed without use of that word, near the end of the first paragraph of this article's "Political collaboration" section. Thanks. Nihil novi (talk) 15:35, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

Excellent. Still waiting on User:E-960 to comment on the rest. François Robere (talk) 16:43, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

also think that 'failure' is not the best word here --E-960 (talk) 17:47, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

FR replace the word “failed” but don’t massively bomb the entire section shifting the narrative 180 degrees ok? Thanks GizzyCatBella (talk) 18:03, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

@E-960: Getting the discussion back on point now that you're here, which of the changes starting with this one do you object, and why? You reverted all of them in one go. François Robere (talk) 22:17, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

• François Robere, again how many times were you asked not to make these kinds of MASS changes to the article, and how many times were you asked not to randomly place SHAME TAGS next every statement you have an issue with. Right in the text you asked about above, you have this tag that you inserted: , even though there is a page number in the citation. So, if you question the citation, then the burden is on you to re-confim, not place a tag and expect someone to start looking. --E-960 (talk) 04:59, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

• Tags are not shame tags. And if someone asks for verification - provide a quote.Icewhiz (talk) 07:07, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

When you SPAM the article with at least two dozen tags since the article was created, and you are the only editor doing that, the validity of such actions is questionable. --E-960 (talk) 11:18, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

Your WP:IDONTLIKEIT of the tags doesn't mean they're unjustified. You can't just go about deleting tags without addressing the reasons behind them (which are often explained in the tag itself). François Robere (talk) 11:51, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

I've been asked not to make them in one go, not not to make them at all. And I've asked others to slow down, but it seems no one took to heart. Imagine my consternation coming back after almost two weeks and seeing what others have done! Would you expect I wouldn't review them? Or spread my edits thinly, when others continue making changes?

What's "shameful" about that tag? It's an extreme estimate that contradicts every other source we have, and could result from a translation error. As cited, the book doesn't appear anywhere, so What's the problem? François Robere (talk) 11:51, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

Volksdeutsche

@Nihil novi: This is mostly fine - one problem is "Polish citizens of German extraction who declared themselves Volksdeutsche," - not all Volkdeutsche were actually from the German ethnic minority, and not all of them "declared themselves" - some were simply forced into signing it. See Volksdeutsche#'Volksdeutsche'_in_German-occupied_western_Poland
Another problem is all of the changes in the first and last paragraphs of the Security forces section - either they are not actual improvements either they actually make the text worse. 198.84.253.202 (talk) 03:25, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

There is a general problem - Poland was divided into several parts, the situation was different in Reich than in GG and a little different in Galizien. If we describe Poland in general, we should explain the differences in any section. Maybe a regional division should be introduced? The discussed phrase was generally true in GG and false in Reich.Xx236 (talk) 07:27, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

I think the issue is that not all Poles who were declared German chose to do so.Slatersteven (talk) 07:37, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

It's only only this problem, A description of occupied Poland is complicated and any shortcut doesn't work.Xx236 (talk) 07:51, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

What this "Polish citizens of German extraction who declared themselves (or were forced to accept the status of) Volksdeutsche" is too complex?Slatersteven (talk) 08:00, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

That's a step in the right direction, but a non-knowledgeable reader would not know what the Volksdeutsche were. Therefore, I propose we reinstate the previous sentence ("Polish citizens who declared themselves part of the German minority (Volksdeutsche)"), but with a modification, to allow for the fact that not all of them did it willfully. The text in the article would thus read:

"[...] Polish citizens who declared themselves, either willfully or forcibly, part of the German minority (Volksdeutsche), [...]")

198.84.253.202 (talk) 14:00, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

Edited for wording. 198.84.253.202 (talk) 15:03, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

This point has already been clarified in the article's "Individual collaboration" section. Thanks for raising the question. Nihil novi (talk) 15:25, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

Anonymous denunciations

Soem Poles informed German police about illegal activities of other people. [37] Anonymous denunciations didn't bring any rewards. The underground collected some letters adressed to the police. [38]Xx236 (talk) 07:22, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

Yes?

Please sign your texts with four '~'.Xx236 (talk) 07:48, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

It was a form of collaboaration, described in an academic book. It was considered a crime by the underground and opposed by collecting the letters. Xx236 (talk) 07:58, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

Thought i had.Slatersteven (talk) 07:59, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

Baiting? Non-RS

This was reverted. While I am happy to see a fringe conspiracy writer was removed subsequently, this blanket stmt is currently based on:

1. post on a regional musuem's website which describes a single alleged incident and was written by a guide - which would not seem to be a RS and in any event does not make the claim ascribed to it.
2. [39] which is a blog post by this guy in the picture speakin against feminists. I am nkt sure the blog makes the claim ascribed to it (did not bother to read this rant in full) - however this WP:SPS is clearly not a RS.

Unless you have a strong academic level source for this, preferably in English, this sentence should be stricken. Using a blog of the sort of the above is shameful.Icewhiz (talk) 07:21, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

Who is that “fringe conspiracy writer” again?GizzyCatBella (talk) 08:12, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

Icewhiz, your arguments are rather weak, you just want that statement removed because you and FR are trying to sanitize the article based on your POV. So, now the Treblinka Muzeum website reference is not reliable (and WOW, your statement that that this is just "a post on a regional musuem's website" is extremely disrespectful, no that is the muzeum of the actual extermination site). Btw, there are references used from the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum all over Wikipedia. --E-960 (talk) 09:12, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

The musuem itself describes itself as regional. The post on the website (and not part of an exhibit or endorsed it would seem) was made by a musuem guide, and not an established scholar. Furthermore, this post describes a single alleged incident - and does not make a blanket stmt as made by the version in the article - so this is a misrepresentation of a non RS. The blog post is shameful. Unless you have an actual RS supporting the text - this goes.Icewhiz (talk) 09:38, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

Yes, the Germans only utilized this baiting method just this ONE time, and never again. I think this incident is most often referenced because of how many Poles were murdered because of a Jewish collaborator. In any case, more references will be added. --E-960 (talk) 09:43, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

And throwing in a random IPN document, which woyld ne be considered an unbiased reliable secondary source, which spans several hundred pages without a page number and quote - is unhelpful. Frankly, if you are not able to find a high quality source for this then it is clearly UNDUE beyond the current state of lacking a RS to back it up.Icewhiz (talk) 09:48, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

Random IPN document? Uhhh... it is an unbiased academic secondary source (again, every Polish source is bias according to you). Also, I'm pretty sure the citation has page numbers, you just did not bother to even look at it. Btw, on a side note Zbrodnia w Paulinowie here is the Polish WP page on the incident (which includes book references). --E-960 (talk) 09:58, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

The IPN is a government agency in charge of government memory policy and prosecution. It is not an academic source. Regardless you are taking one alleged incident and turning it into "One of the Jewish collaborationist..." which is a gross misrepresentation.Icewhiz (talk) 10:10, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

Is Yad Vashem academic? Xx236 (talk) 10:58, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

Hard to say, but it is RS for who it gives awards to.Slatersteven (talk) 11:08, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

Yad Vashem was set up by an act of the the KNESSET (Israeli parliament), just like IPN was created by an act of SEJM (Polish parliament). Also, the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum was set up by an act of US CONGRESS. But to user Icewhiz, it's just the Polish institution that is not reliable. --E-960 (talk) 11:11, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

There is a big difference between being set up by something and being an arm of it.Slatersteven (talk) 11:18, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

Pls classic anti-Polish bias (everything in Poland is not reliable, and all sorts of veiled accusations can be made against it), what are you trying to say, that the incidents are fake, that they never happened? --E-960 (talk) 11:22, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

No I am answering the point about Yad Vashem and IPN, is or is not IPN a Polish government agency?Slatersteven (talk) 11:23, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

You don't even know what RS is according to Wikipedia, read the rules, this is not even an issue, because of the fact that this incident and others like it happened, the IPN simply complied them into one place, if you notice the text they back things up with other references. --E-960 (talk) 11:33, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

I'll take that as a yes.Slatersteven (talk) 11:38, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

Great input, you just went off on a tangent and diverted the discussion Again, you don't argue content, but side issues - a classic case of Red herring approach. The fact is that the incident happened, and this was a tactic used by the Gestapo/collaborators. More sources can be found to augment the subject. --E-960 (talk) 11:41, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

Who was it that raised the issue of Yad Vashem in comparison to IPN?Slatersteven (talk) 11:53, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

Yad Vashem or USHMM are not lustration and prosecution agencies who also carry out the gvmt's history policy. Their reputation is different. BUT, all this is off topic - as you are taking the alleged actions of one Jew and via OR making a general stmt on Jewish groups - which is a shameful misuse of the poor sources presented here.Icewhiz (talk) 11:47, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

OK back on topic, so is it true, was this only one incident? Do any sources claim this was more then just one isolated incident?Slatersteven (talk) 11:53, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

First of all this was not one Jew, this was a tactic, and this is the most notable example because 11 Poles were killed. In fact, posing as escaped Jews was the only way these agents were able to infiltrate anything outside of the ghettos. BTW, funny how you disparage Polish sources, but ignore the fact that there is nothing about this in the English language academia - as if this subject was a taboo, talk about an academic bias towards such issues of Jewish collaboration. --E-960 (talk) 11:58, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

One of the fringe BLOGs might have. We have yet to see a high quality source for any of this - even on the incident level. When I removed this yesterday the whole thing was sourced to outright fringe.Icewhiz (talk) 12:01, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

And given E960's stmt on academic bias leading to lack of sources, we can simply call this UNDUE regardlesd of the poor sourcing.Icewhiz (talk) 12:04, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

• That's just you for now, there is no consensus... so slow down, because you're in a real hurry to take this down. Yet, IPN and the Treblinka Museum are reliable sources (ONLY YOU THINK THEY ARE NOT) and if you want additional citations we'll find them, RfC can last for weeks, yet you want to wrap this up in 48 hours? --E-960 (talk) 12:07, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

OK so lets have one (RS) source that says this was a repeatedly used tactic. Do IPN and the Treblinka Museum says this was an oft used tactic?Slatersteven (talk) 12:10, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

So, why don't you wait a bit, you think that Google Books is all that there is, or if it's not on the internet it does not exist. IPN and Treblinka Museum are reliable because they are not putting forward new claims, simply documenting in one place material that was reaserced over the years and in different locations. --E-960 (talk) 12:13, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

Why don't you answer a simple question, do they say this was more then just an isolated incident?Slatersteven (talk) 12:19, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

As to policy, we do not retain information that is poorly sourced on the promise of better sources, we remove it until better sources are found.Slatersteven (talk) 12:23, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

Look at RfCs, they can take weeks. Also, explain to me in Wkipedia rules why you think that IPN and Treblinka Muzeum are not reliable? So far you only say they are not, but presented no specific arguments. --E-960 (talk) 12:28, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

Did I say they were not reliable, I said they do not say this was a tactic used by any groups, that it was a one off. I have asked you more then one to say they do say it was more then a once off, and you have refused to do so.Slatersteven (talk) 12:30, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

Slatersteven, this is a fair warning when you reverted and re-added your changes you broke the 1RR as noted at the top of this page. So, until the discussion is in progress you do not make any changes, other wise you will be sanctioned. --E-960 (talk) 12:34, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

AS have you.Slatersteven (talk) 12:41, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

Now are you going to answer, doc they say this was an oft used tactic?Slatersteven (talk) 12:42, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

Slatersteven, stop badgering people and give them time to research. As for your question the other source does say that, but since it has been challenged, one avenue to resolve the issue is to just find a better quality citation.--E-960 (talk) 12:46, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

Again that is not how it works, if you do not at this time have sources the material should be removed until such as time as you do. The material has been challenged thus it should not have been reinstated without getting consensus.Slatersteven (talk) 12:47, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

You can explain how it works to the admin, because at this point you are vandalizing the article, there is a discussion on the talk page. SO WAIT. --E-960 (talk) 12:49, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

I agree can an admin step in now please?Slatersteven (talk) 13:00, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

You are simply disrupting the discussion, where does it say outright in the Wikipedia:Identifying reliable sources that a muzeum (IPN or Treblinka Muzeum) is a dubious source of reference for statements of fact (not original research) as you claim? In fact, no where in there is there any thing of the sort, that you claim disqualifies the citations as dubious. --E-960 (talk) 13:08, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

I have not (yet again how often do I need to say this?) said that. I have said they do not support the text as you have written it (they do support the text as I wrote it). the Dubious tag means the statement is disputed, not the source.Slatersteven (talk) 13:12, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

Both IPN and Treblinka Museuem are reliable, scholarly sources. There is absolute no justification if their removal.--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 13:23, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

(Puts on her admin hat). I'll remind folks that this article is under ArbCom remedies - only one revert per 24 hours. The idea is that if you're reverted, you go to the talk page and try to understand the point the other side is making. Yes, that means you need to AGF. Please don't make me have to lock this article... Now, taking off the admin hat - let me see if I can summarize the problem. Per Template:Dubious, the tag can be used for many purposes - one of which is "to express concerns that the source may have been misinterpreted". It appears that Slatersteven is challenging this statement in the article: "One of the Jewish collaborationist groups' baiting techniques was to send agents out as supposed ghetto escapees who would ask Poles for help; if they agreed to help, the household was reported to the Germans, who (as a matter of announced policy) executed the entire family." which is sourced to three sources. The first two sources appear to refer to the same singular incident, and the third doesn't appear to mention any sort of baiting technique at all, at least according to my google translate skills. So, yes, it appears that there is a problem, not with the reliablity of the source, but with one incident being used to support a sentence which generalizes. This is a proper use of the dubious tag in my mind. On the other hand - the people adding the information are pleading for time to find further sources, which seems reasonable. If we can all agree that what Slatersteven is saying isn't that IPN and the Treblinka museum are not reliable but that the problem is that they don't support a generalized statement, we can then move on to finding sources that support the generalized statement. Ealdgyth - Talk 13:33, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

@Ealdgyth: More time here is not reasonable. This was initially added to here based on fringe blogs. As it stands Wikipedia is collectively blaming Jews, based on a single poorly sourced incident allegedly involving one Jew - there is a term for that as I am sure you know. This content possibly should be revdelled, and whomever added it in the first place and/or decided to revert this back in should have their conduct examined. Wikipedia should not host such content.Icewhiz (talk) 13:49, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

I first flagged those statements over two months ago [40]. There was plenty of time to find better sources. François Robere (talk) 13:54, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

The idea is to NOT turn things into a battlefield. That means ... not escalating things. Let's ratchet down the rhetoric on all sides, and try to solve this amicably. There does appear to have been one incident... that seems reasonably sourced (if not as well as I might wish). The problem is that you can't go from one incident to a generalized statement. Reading through the above, I saw that E-960 did not seem to be getting what Slatersteven was saying - and others also seem to be still arguing that Slatersteven was arguing that IPN and the museum were not reliable sources. Let's try to get everyone understanding what the dispute is ABOUT, please. Can the people opposed to Slatersteven's edits please acknowledge that it isn't an issue of the reliablity of the IPN/TM sources, but an issues of generalizing from one incident? I really prefer to avoid locking the article or seeing yet another WP:ARE request. Ealdgyth - Talk 13:59, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

Ealdgyth, thanks for stepping in and giving everyone a bit of berthing space to do the research, the second source does say "The Jewish agents of the Gestapo from Żagwia pretended to escape from the ghetto Jewish refugees, to give the Germans Poles helping Jews, partisans and authentic Jewish fugitives." but it's also being challenged that it is a blog, but it does reference that this was a tactic not just one incident, we are looking for other sources to back up the statement in real books not the internet or Google Books. Btw there are similar provocateur actions such as the 'Hotel Polski' incident, but no surprise there, you are not going to find this info in English sources, and though there are individual examples we would like to find a statement that summaries everything. --E-960 (talk) 14:05, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

The Gestapo were not a Jewish organisation. I also have to say I am having trouble finding a reference to Żagwia on the second source (it is the Treblinka one we are talking about?).Slatersteven (talk) 14:19, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

Do you understand that even if the second source says that ... it doesn't support a general statement that "One of the Jewish collaborartionist groups' baiting techniques" ... because that's a statement that says the technique applies generally. The statement in the article is a general statement applying to more than one Jewish collaborationist groups. (The "groups'" means plural ... i.e. more than one... groups). The sources given support that this happened one time in one particular incident. Unless there were multiple groups involved in this one incident, the sources given cannot possibly support a generalized statement. Unless I'm missing something in what I read. Also - in general... it's best to take out contentious information that has been challenged rather than insist on leaving it in while sources are sought. It's much more collaborative to do so, rather than fight a battle over retaining it. It shows a collaborative attitude, rather than a WP:BATTLEGROUND mentality. The absolute best practice is to not put anything in an article that isn't supported in all particulars by a reliable source. Especially for something on as touchy a subject as Jewish collaboration with the Nazis - it really is poor form to not have the information properly sourced when first inserted. It would be a good gesture for future collaboration to remove the information pending on finding sources that support the generalized statement. Ealdgyth - Talk 14:15, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

The idea that a blog post by this guy in the picture speakin against feminists would be used as a ref for the Holocaust and advance an arguement on talk is quite mind boggling.Icewhiz (talk) 14:20, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

"The sources given support that this happened one time in one particular incident. Unless there were multiple groups involved in this one incident"

There were several cases like this, and this is the largest incident but far from single one.--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 14:23, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

Ealdgyth, touchy subject it is, and so are the deaths of Poles who were turned (personally, I would like to see a bit more sensitivity toward that matter as well). The first source talks about two Jewish provocateurs in village of Paulinów, the other about Żagiew (a group in Warsaw), and the third incident bit different but still related based on deception, Hotel Polish was done by yet another group call 'Group 13' in Warsaw, so this was a pattern. We are just trying to find a source that says that this was a "common tactic" done by the Gestapo and Jewish provocateurs. Even on a TV news discussion in Poland this was raised recently, so this is not some theory, and we would like to just find a solid source that confirms that. --E-960 (talk) 14:26, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

From the second source "On the night of February 23-24, 1943, the Germans organized a raid and surrounded the Paulinów village", its the same incident.Slatersteven (talk) 14:33, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

Can we have a list of the sources as you are referring to it. I think the issue maybe what you call "the second source" is not the second cite. Which source are you calling "then second source"?Slatersteven (talk) 14:35, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

if you mean the Hotel Polski incident - that does not appear to fit the definition of a Jewish group baiting a Polish rescuer ... that incident was where the Germans duped the Jews. There do not appear to be any Polish rescuers involved in that incident. This is why it is discouraged to use primary sources on Wikipedia because it becomes too easy to start doing WP:OR and drawing conclusions from incidents. That's the very definition of what historians do, but we are not historians. We need secondary sources that draw these conclusions. And from what I read in the IPN and Treblinka Museum sources, they refer to the same event in Paulinow. Ealdgyth - Talk 14:35, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

Yes, as I briefly mentioned (incident used deception), the Hotel Polski incident did not include a Polish rescuer but used a baiting tactic - so this item just points to the fact that baiting was used in several forms by Jewish collaborators against Poles and fellow Jews. In any case, I think we can find sources to back this up, but it will come form real books not Google. --E-960 (talk) 14:41, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

I have added two highly reliable ad scholarly sources

• One is an article in scientific journal about Holocaust studies by Witold W. Mędykowski Against One's Own: Patterns of Jewish Collaboration and in Cracow and the Cracow Area by Witold W. Mędykowski who mentions baiting and gives an example of such operation by Jewish Gestapo collaborator Marta Puretz

• The other is from Acta Poloniae Historica:published by the Institute of History, Polish Academy of Sciences (PAN). Publishers, the semiannual Acta Poloniae Historica (APH) ranks among the leading Polish historical periodicals in international circulation. Founded by the outstanding Polish historian Marian Małowist (1909–1988), APH has been published since 1958 under the patronage of the Committee for Historical Sciences. The magazine deals with problems and issues reflecting the most recent research findings and the output of Polish historians covering the historic periods spanning from the Middle Ages till the present, as well as offers a representation of the mos--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 15:22, 26 May 2018 (UTC)t important currents of world historiography in the Polish – and, more broadly, Central European – historiography(...)ssued for several years now in an English-language version, in its entirety, APH has for more than twenty years now been featured with the Master List of Philadelphia (without the impact factor [IF]) and with the ERIH (INT-1) list[41].

--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 14:43, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

Can we have a translation, as I a having trouble finding anything about stoolies (or what ever you with to cal them on page 206. I can find a reference to informers (its a bit hard to follow), but not for what it is being used to source, entrapment of civilians.Slatersteven (talk) 14:48, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

As far as I can tell it also is only talking about German employed agents, not organised Jewish actions. Also it seems to be talking about Jews asking for forged papers, not poles helping them. It seems to be about Poles (I am not sure if Jewish or not) informing on Jews.Slatersteven (talk) 15:01, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

It is telling that all we have here are Polish sources and that they themselves are describing individual incidents. This may have been a general Gestapo technique, not related to Jews. The section as is is OR (and offensive at such), and quite clearly UNDUE given the rather limited and biased sourcing here.Icewhiz (talk) 15:08, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

All the sources describe this a more than singular incidents, these incidents are used to show examples of this being used. This is given as example of collaboration by these highly reliable and scholarly sources of highest quality, there is no OR as these are very reputabe academic publications.--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 15:11, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

This is far from highly reliable sourcing. Exact quotes please supporting the generalization please. Then we will discuss UNDUE - which at this level of sourcing this is.Icewhiz (talk) 15:14, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

"This is far from highly reliable sourcing". "Witold W. Mędykowski is a historian, political scientist, born in Lublin, graduate of the University of Life Sciences in Lublin, Tel Aviv University (Jewish and general history) and the Hebrew University of Jerusalem (Contemporary Jewry). Received his Ph.D. degree in political science at the Institute of Political Studies, Polish Academy of Sciences in Warsaw and Ph.D in contemporary Jewry at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem"[42].

--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 15:15, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

Again what is being challenged is not the source, but what the source is claimed to say. As I have said what seems to being talked about is individual Gestapo informers, not some concreted tactic used by organised Jewish groups (and at least one source seems to be talking about Jews being shopped, not polish families).Slatersteven (talk) 15:18, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

Nope, it says about provocations and how they were organized.The cases serve as examples of wider problem.--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 15:22, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

@Slatersteven and others -> these agents of Gestapo-sponsored “Żagiew” are correctly called “Agents provocateurs” in English.GizzyCatBella (talk) 15:24, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

Which part of "gestapo" means "Jewish"? So I ask again for a translation, as all I am seeing is a lot about Jews denouncing other Jews as individual acts as agents of the Gestapo. Not some organised Jews betraying Polish families helping Jews. I think we should give this a rest until such a translation shows up.Slatersteven (talk) 15:31, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

We are still in OR - no quote supporting the generalization has been produced. It is also UNDUE given that the refs, such as they are, are from regional Polish journals, not from top tier publications, and from authors who while they have some credentials are not well known in the field. In such a widely studied field, one would expect strong sourcing and not such grasping at straws.Icewhiz (talk) 15:48, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

Tadeusz Bednarczyk in "Życie codzienne warszawskiego getta" [43] writes about Żagiew taktics.GizzyCatBella (talk) 15:55, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

Icewhiz, stop making up your own WP:RS rules on reliability, such as "top tier" or "are not well known". Before you argued they need to be academic, when folks produced academic sources, now they are not famous enough. Also, the references provided by MyMoloboaccount, seem to document a persistent patter of such provocations. --E-960 (talk) 16:10, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

WP:NPA please. The generalization in our current text is still based on offensive OR. As for WP:UNDUE - passing some semblance of V with a RS (though at this level needing attribution) - is a neccessary but insufficient criteria for inclusion. In this case we have far right fringe claims in blogs and possibly two mentions in fairly low impact journals (on the world scale) - making this UNDUE, regardless of the OR.Icewhiz (talk) 17:22, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

Are publications of the Institute of History of the Polish Academy of Sciences (PAN) “far right fringe claims, blogs, and low impact journals Icewhiz?

Low impact publication.Icewhiz (talk) 18:03, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

E-960 Can we please have one source from a well-known university, who's widely cited and widely acknowledged for their scholarship? You repeatedly argued against Jan Grabowski, a widely cited, award-winning scholar from a leading national university, and now you want us to accept sources like these? Show some consistency. François Robere (talk) 18:10, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

Icewhiz, how do you figure that what History of the Polish Academy of Sciences (PAN) publishes is of "low impact", this is one of the main academic institution in Poland. At this point your bias is becoming clearly evident, every time there is a reference provide you automatically say it's low-quality or un-reliable. Yes, we know at this point this is a standard line, unless a source is from the US or Israel its junk. --E-960 (talk) 18:29, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

Per scholar this paper was published in 1997 and cited since twice. Low impact QED. Please WP:NPA - I have introduced Polish sources to articles when of sufficient quality. In this case the text inserted is making a sweeping generalization, with hagiagraphical depictions of Polish suffering based on cherrypicked incidents from low impact, and mainly ignored, publications. This is the definition of UNDUE, couple with OR for the generalizations.Icewhiz (talk) 18:40, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

Icewhiz when you said "hagiagraphical depictions of Polish suffering" WOW, more disrespect and ethnocentrism! I'm pretty sure that such baiting practices were common, whether directed at Poles or other Jews, you are trying to fight this on technicalities, because you know this stuff happened. Your comment is so out of line! --E-960 (talk) 18:48, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

ONUS is on those who wish to include. There is clearly no consensus for this. I suggest you launch a RfC if you think the community at large will support such gneralizations based on this type of sourcing.Icewhiz (talk) 18:44, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

Stop trying to divert the discussion by hiding behind a RfC. Just like the phony Admin Reports filed by you against myself and user GizzyCatBella (both of which were dropped after review). You Wikipedia:Forum shop to see if you can get the outcome you want, this RfC is an example of it. --E-960 (talk) 18:53, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

User:E-960 I'm sure it happened, but there's a difference between sporadic occurrences and an organized phenomenon like you're describing, and what you're describing isn't backed by RS. Instead of insisting on it, either find other sources or drop the claim. You and several others fought tooth and nail against inclusion of Jan Grabowski - a widely cited, award-winning scholar from a leading national university - and other sources like him - and now you want us to accept authors that are literally cited by no one? We've had these discussions several times in the past two months, and every time it got to RSN/RfC the source got kicked out (and on one occasion - the editor), and for good reasons. I can understand your frustration, but the bottom line is that statement just isn't well-founded. Maybe later it will be, but at the moment it isn't François Robere (talk) 20:08, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

Lets step back, await the translations we have been promised and come back after the bank holiday to shout at each other again.Slatersteven (talk) 18:54, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

Guys...and any gals...

Above, I warned y’all that this needed more discussing and less reverting. I see we’re back to the reverting behavior. Its getting a bit silly. I really would prefer to not see this article locked up, but it’s heading in that direction, or worse. Ealdgyth - Talk 18:25, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

• Ealdgyth, just want to bring to attention a remark by user Icewhiz about Poles, when he made this statement "hagiagraphical depictions of Polish suffering". I personally object to this type of language, and I don't think that someone who makes such a cynical and belittling statement should really get involved in an article such as this one. This display of ethnocentrism is very troubling. --E-960 (talk) 19:07, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

I'm just going to address any sort of "so-and-so said something" right now. From reading the talk page and it's archives, there are no clean hands in the discussion. Everyone has strayed to a greater or lesser degree from the best practices of collaborative editing. I didn't let my children play "brother said a bad word" games, so I don't see why I should do that sort of thing as an admin. Let's everyone try to behave on our best behavior.. model the behavior that we want to see from others. Less discussion of the other editors as people and more discussion of sources and quotations from sources would go a long way to defusing the acrimony on this talk page. Ealdgyth - Talk 19:27, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

As much as I agree with your assessment, I wonder what would be the reaction if an editor just blurred out a similar statement, but form the other perspective, such as "hagiagraphical depictions of Jewish suffering". I think the reaction would have been swift. In this case we are not talking about in your face comments about the content, this comment went a bit past that, touching on possible biases which may make a compromise impossible. Also, in the case of user Icewhiz this is someone who filed two Admin Reports against myself and GizzyCatBella, both of which were dismissed as groundless. This type of behavior is quite unnerving. --E-960 (talk) 19:42, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

Both you and Bella filed ones against me, if I recall correctly, and both were dismissed. This is less a characteristic of Icewhiz, and more an artifact of the way the community is organized.

As for his comment: Here's a couple of recent edits that you reverted: [44][45]. These segments have little to do with the subject of the article - collaboration - yet editors keep adding them back. Why? What do they contribute to the text? François Robere (talk) 20:20, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

I will note that both filings against E-960 were not "dismissed". As for my comment - the myth-making and PR in this regard is well documented, e.g. in this Routledge book. Constructively, going forward, I suggest a RfC be conducted if those who wish to include this insist on it.Icewhiz (talk) 20:34, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

Change in editing restrictions - please read

I've fully protected the article for two days to let these changes sink in. For those of you not familiar with "consensus-required", edits refer to the addition of new material, removal of long-standing (four to six weeks) material, and changes to existing material. If someone challenges an edit via reversion or a similar mechanism, no one may restore it or make a similar edit (no game-playing!) without getting consensus first on the the talk page. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 23:18, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

Translations

English translations have been requested for two Polish-language texts found in footnotes to paragraph 3 of the "Collaboration by Polish Jews" section.

I have provided a translation for the Kierylak quotation.

However, I have been prevented from introducing my translation of the Mędykowski quotation. Accordingly I am providing that translation below, as it should be embedded in paragraph 3 of the "Collaboration by Polish Jews" section:

Nihil novi (talk) 00:17, 27 May 2018 (UTC)

References

Aha. So this one does not support the text at all - describing usual activities of the "Jewish Gestapo" agents in Wrsaw which we already describe in the beginning of the paragraph. No mention here of households or escapees.Icewhiz (talk) 03:58, 27 May 2018 (UTC)

Nope, there are other references that confirm that wide spread tactic Icewhiz.GizzyCatBella (talk) 06:14, 27 May 2018 (UTC)

That's a tragic story. Thank you for the translation, Nihil novi.

@GizzyCatBella: If you don't find those references, or they're not RS, then from Wiki's standpoint they don't exist. We can only add text based on RS. François Robere (talk) 10:57, 27 May 2018 (UTC)

RfC: Jewish Baiting Techniques

Should the text inserted by this diff be present in the article? Previous discussion in Talk:Collaboration in German-occupied Poland#Baiting? Non-RS and Talk:Collaboration in German-occupied Poland/Archive 1#"Baiting". Icewhiz (talk) 05:09, 27 May 2018 (UTC)

Survey

• No, and revdel per WP:RD2. This was initially in the article sourced to fringe far-right blogs (and possibly misrepresenting those). Sourcing was updated to 4 different refs, which are:
  1. IPN (a political lustration and memory policy government agency) - index of incidents. Borderline as RS, very low impact factor. The cited document itself describes a single incident in Paulinow (which involved an alleged Jew, and not "Jewish collaborationist groups") and does not make the generalization in the article.
  2. Kierylak - a museum guide's web post (museum endorsement uncertain, credentials of guide uncertain as well). Borderline as RS, and certainly no impact factor. The post itself describes the same single incident in Paulinow and does not make the generalization in the article.
  3. Prekerowa - Published in a Polish journal in 1997, two citations since. Very low impact factor. The article itself describes the same single incident in Paulinow and does not make the generalization in the article.
  4. Mędykowski - describes Gestapo agents' operations in Warsaw. The text does not make the generalization ascribed to it, nor does it describe an incident that supports the text.

  Thus, the text itself is OR - as no source supports the sweeping generalization. Use of these obscure documents is UNDUE in any event - this is a widely studied topic, and if this is what the an extensive search for sources drug up (to replace the far right BLOGs) - it is clearly UNDUE. Finally, the sweeping generalization, based on OR, towards "Jewish collaborationist groups" (as opposed, to say the German Gestapo) based a single possible incident (which did not seem to involve a Jewish group) - is grossly offensive - Blood libel in Wikipedia's voice that should be WP:RD2ed.Icewhiz (talk) 05:21, 27 May 2018 (UTC)

User Icewhiz, pls stop with the mischaracterizations of reference sources (they can be viewed on this talk page, below this discussion), and making questionable statements such as this: "involved an ALLEGED Jew", it's not an allegation, but a fact that the agent-provocateur in this case was Jewish — his name was Szymel Helman. Also, the term "Jewish collaborationist groups" is not "grossly offensive" as you state it, but a fact; here are two of such groups Żagiew and Group 13, where the Jewish agents working for the Gestapo were volunteers. --E-960 (talk) 05:47, 27 May 2018 (UTC)

• Not sure why user Icewhiz took down my comment to his statement and moved it to a lower section, yet he himself critiques other voters directly underneath their votes. Pls keep this comment where I initially placed it. Thank you.--E-960 (talk) 17:53, 28 May 2018 (UTC)

• It is unclear to me, per my possibly faulty reading, whether this was someone who said he was Szymel Helman (something the villagers attested to) or whether there was an actual identification of this individual beyond that. Hence, I am using alleged Jew (as the agent certainly presented himself as such). Futhermore, this particular Helman, again per my possibly faulty reading, is alleged to be a Gestapo agent but not part of Jewish group.Icewhiz (talk) 18:05, 28 May 2018 (UTC)

• One thing for sure, we know that some Jewish agents (whether working in a group or individually) used various entrapment methods against both Poles and Jews; the Paulinów incident, the Hotel Polski affair, and the fake resistance movement set up by Józef Hammer. So, as user GizzyCatBella suggest we can revise the wording to re-state that such groups used various entrapment methods against Poles and Jews, and provide the three examples. That would be a valid COMPROMISE solution to this issue. --E-960 (talk) 18:24, 28 May 2018 (UTC)

• YES, for now at least, the original discussion was only initiated the day before this RfC, I'm afraid that user Icewhiz is trying to take advantage of WP:FORUMSHOP, and trying to just remove the text, instead of allowing other editors to find additional reference sources which may be back up the statement. Also, we do have 4 references now, which list individual examples of this particular tactic: . --E-960 (talk) 06:31, 27 May 2018 (UTC)

It's been up for two months. How much more do you need? We're getting into WP:SPECULATION territory. François Robere (talk) 07:51, 28 May 2018 (UTC)

• Yes. I am not sure if the 'baiting technique' is a correct (best) translation, and Icehwiz makes a valid point about generalization, but the general facts are not disputed. Some Jewish agents, working for the Germans, did indeed try to entrap Poles willing to help the Jews. While it was likely a very small scale pheromone, a single sentence mentioning this, among many other examples of collaboration, seems totally justified. We could rewrite the sentence to be specific ('A technique used in Paulinow involved Germans using Jewish collaborators to...'). All the sources cited seem reliable, written either by historians, and/or published on pages of reliable institutions. I don't see why this would cause any significant debate, outside possibly being politically incorrect ('but Fooian nationality was the victims and never did anything wrong!' - WP:IDONTLIKEIT?). Again, I'd oppose making a big deal out of it (WP:UNDUE), but the one sentence currently present seems totally fine. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 06:50, 27 May 2018 (UTC)

  Some, as being possibly one incident, which is what the refs support. If we are entering singular incidents into this article (that just barely, possibly, scrape by V) - there's plenty of incidents to enter.Icewhiz (talk) 06:55, 27 May 2018 (UTC)

• No None of the sources say (as far as I can tell) this was organised or operated by Jewish groups (they all say it was a Gestapo operation). Also whilst they do say there was more then one of this type of operation they are all individuals shopping (with the exception of one incident) individuals (and as far as I can tell those looking for help, not those giving it, again with one exception). Thus the text does not match up with what the sources are saying.Slatersteven (talk) 09:05, 27 May 2018 (UTC)
• No. While I have no doubt things like that did happen, the suggestion that it was a common MO of Jewish collaborators is not supported by RS, and as such is in violation of WP:NOR. François Robere (talk) 11:14, 27 May 2018 (UTC)
• Yes I see no controversy here. These techniques are described by very reliable and high profile academic sources.I don't see any particular reason why this information should be removed.--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 12:38, 27 May 2018 (UTC)
• Yes, if the content of the addition is true.(KIENGIR (talk) 13:37, 27 May 2018 (UTC))
• Yes, references are clearly confirming that tactics being used, but personally, I would reword the sentence a little, just the way it was before May 26th Icewhiz ’s removal of it. GizzyCatBella (talk) 18:42, 27 May 2018 (UTC)
• No As the moment - there is a single alleged incident that is somewhat reffed - and from which they are making a broad generalization. The source is from a blog post by a blogger that wrote about "Jewish Nazism"... not reliable by any standards.--יניב הורון (talk) 00:20, 28 May 2018 (UTC)
• Yes, but augment with more complete information on the agent-provocateur methods used by the Jewish Gestapo to ferret out fellow Jews who were in hiding, and the Poles who rescued Jews being hunted by the Germans. Nihil novi (talk) 09:30, 28 May 2018 (UTC)
• Yes, but with a brief, precise statement of the evidence. Jzsj (talk) 12:12, 28 May 2018 (UTC)
• Yes, or "why the hell not?". Despite Icewhiz's mental gymnastics and false assertions in his !vote, it's very well sourced. I mean, seriously the objection is that one of the sources is a Polish academic journal. This is part of a now well established pattern where Icewhiz tries to remove any Polish sources from articles on Polish history. This is a ridiculous and frankly offensive argument.Volunteer Marek (talk) 13:59, 28 May 2018 (UTC)

Icewhiz doesn't object to that source - he just says that the source does not support that statement (by not making the generalization. 198.84.253.202 (talk) 16:13, 28 May 2018 (UTC)

No, I'm talking about his #3 not his #4 (which is a separate issue).Volunteer Marek (talk) 16:47, 28 May 2018 (UTC)

I mentioned the low citation count of Prekerowa in regards to UNDUE. This source also does not support the generalization. It is (with minor variations - farm, additional stuff going on in the farm)) an example perhaps (there is an issue of Jew vs. Jewish group, and identification issues) of the generalization - but it does not make the generalization.Icewhiz (talk) 17:13, 28 May 2018 (UTC)

• No, unless a reliable, academic source which directly supports this generalization and does more than describe single incidents can be found. Otherwise, the generalization is WP:SYNTH.For the specific sentence targeted by the RfC, No, but an amended sentence (after review of presented sources) which properly describes the events would be acceptable. 198.84.253.202 (talk) 16:13, 28 May 2018 (UTC)
• No, only very poor sources appear to even begin to support the generalisation - but including the generalisation appears from discussion above, to be what some editors insist on, regardless of the low number and quality of sources. That there may have been individual incidents appears to be generally agreed, but no evidence of a pattern - as stated in the disputed text - is offered in the discussion. The generalisation is a fairly extraordinary claim and much better sources - which actually support the claim - are needed. Pincrete (talk) 18:23, 28 May 2018 (UTC)

Pincrete, I'm not sure if some of the generaliztions result form an unconscious bias against Polish sources, or just not being familiar with the institutions, how can we say that Treblinka Muzeum is a "poor source", yet I see United States Holocaust Memorial Museum webside references all over Wikipedia. --E-960 (talk) 18:30, 28 May 2018 (UTC)

My understanding of the discussion above is that this is not the museum, but an individual guide - I've been a museum guide, and believe me no expertise in the field is required. I also understand that the guide refers to an incident - not a widespread, common phenomenon - which is what the disputed text states. At one point in the above discussion you try to argue that if it worked for the Gestapo once, they are bound to have repeated it - that is so WP:SYNTHy that I was left speechless. If this was anything like a common phenomen, we would reasonably expect numerous historians to have documented precisely how widespread the phenomenon was - they haven't AFAI can see. Poland, and the Poles suffered greatly under Nazi occupation, no one disputes that, but that does not mean that we lower our sourcing standards to justify fairly extraordinary claims. Pincrete (talk) 19:13, 28 May 2018 (UTC)

Pincrete, but what about the other two sources, IPN and PAN, both are academic institutions, operating under government charters (who in this case only stated the facts of the even, the IPN text even has citations of other academics). It seems that in the Anglo-Saxon world the only way you are considered a "quality source" is if you write a book, and get an interview in NYT and do a segment on CNN - so basically if you have a good publicist he'll get your research to be noticed, everything else is unreliable, because it's obscure. --E-960 (talk) 19:59, 28 May 2018 (UTC)

Extended Discussion

• NOTE: What user Icewhiz is doing by setting up this RfC is WP:FORUMSHOP. In the preceding discussion (above), which was only set up by user Icewhiz at 07:21, 26 May 2018 (UTC) the day before this RfC, a couple of editors asked for time to find additional sources and work on translations because there are already reference source citations in the article which document individual examples of "baiting" but do not provide a description of the scale — here are the 4 current references which document individual cases (including translated text): So, instead of WAITING on the results, user Icewhiz is trying to game the process by setting up a RfC, hoping that he can attract enough votes to REMOVE the text before any new references are found. --E-960 (talk) 05:28, 27 May 2018 (UTC)

Or someone who identified himself as such. What is grossly offensive here is not "Jewish collaborationist groups" (though that is a minor misrepresentation of the primarily criminal enterprises headed by Gancwajch) - but ORish assignment of an alleged wide spread technique based on a single incident, with an alleged Jew, which the sources themselves do not ascribe to any group. Assigning collective responsibility to Jewish groups for widespread murder of families - based on a single incident with an alleged Jew - that is the definition of offensive.Icewhiz (talk) 06:02, 27 May 2018 (UTC)

Ok, so what you are saying is that the Germans only employed Jewish collaborators to carry out this tactic, just this one time, (just this once), and never again. Any reasonable person would doubt such a conclusion, in fact because INFILTRATION of the primary task of such groups, posing as escaped Jews was the only way to get access. Also, you removed the text on Józef Hammer-Baczewski [46] who worked for the Abwehr, and set up a fake resistance group to lure unsuspecting polish resistance fighters. There you removed the text by claiming that Józef Hammer-Baczewski was "not a Jew during Abwehr service", what does that even mean "DURING Abwehr service" was he Jewish before, but just not during? --E-960 (talk) 06:18, 27 May 2018 (UTC)

A single source says Hammer-Baczewski came from a family with Jewish roots, other treat his background as unknown. This does not make this very long-term Abwehr agent (possibly back to WWI) Jewish.Icewhiz (talk) 06:59, 27 May 2018 (UTC)

• As for "time to find references" - that is an admission this text is based on OR and/or extreme fringe sources that are unusable as sources (some of which were present in the article until yesterday) - content is added to Wikipedia based on sources, not the other way around. Nothing precludes adding a properly sourced text (in an encyclopedic tone as opposed to a hagiography of victimhood) at a later date. Furthermore, this was discussed two months ago - in a discussion where the consensus was to take remove this unless it was taken to RSN (being based on fringe BLOGs). It seems this text made its way back into the article despite that discussion, based on the same blogs, and without taking it to RSN.Icewhiz (talk) 06:08, 27 May 2018 (UTC)

What “fringe BLOGs” are you talking about Icewhiz? GizzyCatBella (talk) 06:17, 27 May 2018 (UTC)

this one for instance - which was in the article until yesterday. You might see coverage of this fellow here: [47], [48], [49].Icewhiz (talk) 06:29, 27 May 2018 (UTC)

Please... you just provided articles about "this guy" that show he is an pro-life advocate, and has a conservative political view point. Wow, you are right he is extreme "far-right". Btw, this reference was removed because it was a BLOG not becasue the author is a pro-lifer... seriously!! --E-960 (talk) 06:38, 27 May 2018 (UTC)

This was a blog. His views on feminists are quite illuminating- Jan Bodakowski dla Frondy: Feminizm - nowy sztandar skrajnej lewicy - comparing feminists (the banner of leftism extremism) with the Bolsheviks who were responsible for the death of millions.Icewhiz (talk) 06:44, 27 May 2018 (UTC)

Can you present few unchallenged pieces of evidence (not left-wing press reporting on his pro-life stand) that this historian is “fringe” and should not be accepted as a credible source? GizzyCatBella (talk) 06:51, 27 May 2018 (UTC)

Can you present evidence that he is a historian? I do see RS coverage of him as a blogger, with some treatment in research level literature - e.g. for more extreme statements made on blogs - in this particular case comments on "Jewish Nazism". It does seem that the "Jewish Nazism" piece (and similar items) is (rather scantily) referenced in some scholarly publications, however it is done as an example of a manifestation of such views and not as a reference to a scholarly publication.Icewhiz (talk) 08:02, 27 May 2018 (UTC)

Icewhiz you seem to be misreading the source given, do you dare to translate this source here? Word by word, the whole thing please. GizzyCatBella (talk) 12:06, 27 May 2018 (UTC)

I suggest this text

The gestapo used entrapment techniques such as sending agents out as supposed ghetto escapees who would ask Poles for (or offer) help; if they agreed, they were reported to the Germans, who (as a matter of announced policy) executed the entire family or arrested those willing to help Jews.

This reflects what the sources actually says, and does not try to imply that a one of incident was a standard operation.Slatersteven (talk) 09:14, 27 May 2018 (UTC)

@Slatersteven: - the "executed the entire family" is not supported by the references given (or any of the rest of the generalization - as we have sources detailing a single incident - not covering Gestapo techniques in general). At the current level of sourcing - this is WP:UNDUE - and there is not particular reason to single out the Jews - The Gestapo operated plenty of non-Jewish agents for entrapment - are we going to break down gestapo agents by ethnicity?Icewhiz (talk) 09:17, 27 May 2018 (UTC)

Actually it is 14 people in fact. Moreover this is the section about Jews, so it seems valid to discuss the actions by Jewish collaborators. Now if this was a tactic (and it seems it was) also used by Polish collaborators hen we can also have that as well.Slatersteven (talk) 09:19, 27 May 2018 (UTC)

@Slatersteven:, I’m sorry, German Gestapo didn’t send Żagiew or “13th” agents “out". These organizations were sponsored by the Gestapo but operated separately, they had its own agents, firearms, dwellings and jail system inside the Ghetto. These characters were also crooked to the bone (they even ran a brothel in the Ghetto, yes!) No, your proposal would not reflect the exact accuracy of the matters. GizzyCatBella (talk) 09:53, 27 May 2018 (UTC)

Which of the sources mention them, as none of the provided text seems to, in the context of the text we are debating.Slatersteven (talk) 09:56, 27 May 2018 (UTC)

I provided sources earlier, but they were removed. You could study on Żagiew and “13th" on your own if you have the energy for it. The only challenge in your case is that most of the material will be in Polish. I’ll dedicate more time to the matter later, too busy right now. GizzyCatBella (talk) 10:09, 27 May 2018 (UTC)

You could provide the translation you know, you can clearly write English?Slatersteven (talk) 10:15, 27 May 2018 (UTC)

Slatersteven, I think this is a right step forward, but your proposal would suggest this was done by Gestapo, while sources state this was a technique used by Jewish collaborators(who according to sources often had significant autonomy, sometimes surprisingly so, I guess there are nueances here that come from our generalization of Second World War. I can also add that according to Mędykowski Gestapo sometimes protected its Jewish agents, while SS was interested in killing them, there was conflict between these two organizations, but I digress.)

I suggest the following: The Jewish collaborators used entrapment and provocation techniques such as sending agents out as supposed ghetto escapees who would ask Poles for (or offer) help; if they agreed, they were reported to the Germans, who (as a matter of announced policy) executed the entire family or arrested those willing to help Jews. --MyMoloboaccount (talk) 12:44, 27 May 2018 (UTC)

No source has been advanced to support such a wide generalization - to date - you've brought a source supporting, a single alleged incident.Icewhiz (talk) 12:46, 27 May 2018 (UTC)

All the sources we have say it was one used by Gestapo agents. Your text implies this was done on the orders of Jews, no source that we have given a text of so far has ever said that. Also as far as I can see there was only one instance of them possing as escapees. Every other instance if them posing as the underground to trap escapees.Slatersteven (talk) 12:49, 27 May 2018 (UTC)

I will also note that " who (as a matter of announced policy) executed the entire family or arrested those willing to help Jews" - is WP:SYNTH in this context.Icewhiz (talk) 12:56, 27 May 2018 (UTC)

Both Prekerowa and Medykowski mention this is a general technique, and not an isolated incidents--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 12:59, 27 May 2018 (UTC).

Do they Prekerowa seems to be talking about one incident, as far as I can tell Medykowski seems to be talking about multiple individual incidents, as well as this one, again can you please provide the quotes where they say this was used more then once?Slatersteven (talk) 13:05, 27 May 2018 (UTC)

Report from the Cracow Home Army (number 15; 23 January 1944; AAN-AL. Archiwum Akt Nowych, Government Delegation)

• Our Cracow cell has been completely broken ... The arrests are the result of several months of systematic Gestapo work. The provocateurs were organized by the Jewish Gestapo confidant Diamant and his people’'” GizzyCatBella (talk) 14:32, 27 May 2018 (UTC)

Err who was arrested, what work did Diamant and his people do?, also who is the Diamant, I can find no reference to him. In fact this is a primary source anyway. This says (and no one has disagreed) that the Gestapo employed Jewish agents. The dispute is the modus operandi. The dispute is over whether or not more then one family was entrapped in this way (assuming this was the methods used).Slatersteven (talk) 15:05, 27 May 2018 (UTC)

Ahh found him, he was not the head of a Jewish organisation, but was the heard of about 30 Jewish informers working for the Gestapo (Department No. 3). There is (as far as I can find) not evidence they were a formal unit or organisation. Also (as far as I can tell) they operated against the Jewish underground, not Poles. But the main point is they do not appear to have used entrapment (as far as I can tell) so much as infiltration of the Ghetto underground in Krakow.Slatersteven (talk) 15:13, 27 May 2018 (UTC)

So what it does not support "One of the Jewish collaborationist groups'", it was not a formally organised group, any more then any other department (and we are still lacking a source this was a standard tactic by formal Jewish groups). "the household was reported to the Germans", and we still only have one instance of this being done (in fact it does not even say they sought help from Poles, and I am jot sure any of the presented sources do). "as a matter of announced policy) executed the entire family", again we only have one instance of something close to this (and it actually does not seem to be talking about a family, but a group of people form one village).Slatersteven (talk) 15:22, 27 May 2018 (UTC)

"it was not a formally organised group" <--- hmmm, somehow this part must've been missed: "The provocateurs were organized by"

Note that the single example, attested to in rather low impact sources, is not about a "Jewish group" either.Icewhiz (talk) 15:25, 27 May 2018 (UTC)

By which you mean to say it's rarely cited, if at all. Correct? François Robere (talk) 16:14, 27 May 2018 (UTC)

Yes. 2 cites per scholar.Icewhiz (talk) 16:16, 27 May 2018 (UTC)

Did I miss something and "impact factor" (which is a fairly recent metric and one which is mostly particular to English speaking countries (did someone say SYSTEMIC BIAS?) somehow became a mark of reliability? Nahhhh... it's just Icewhiz and Francois Robere inventing new ridiculous excuses to remove sources they don't like again, per usual.Volunteer Marek (talk) 14:11, 28 May 2018 (UTC)

Also, how do you get "single example"? There's at least two - Prekerowa (and Kierylak) references an incident from 1943, Medykowski another one from 1942. The second one even makes it clear that this is just an example and that there were other instances.Volunteer Marek (talk) 14:18, 28 May 2018 (UTC)

Medykowski references "regular" Żagiew/Group 13 agents. He does not mention entire families. He does not mention requesting help (it mention purchasing illegal services). This does not support - One of the Jewish collaborationist groups' baiting techniques was to send agents out as supposed ghetto escapees who would ask Poles for help; if they agreed to, the household was reported to the Germans, who (as a matter of announced policy) executed the entire family or arrested those willing to help Jews. It does support (in this case) Jewish agents (not quite presented as ghetto escapees) trying to purchase false documents, and then turning in their contacts. What is lacking here in terms of WP:V is the generalization that the sentence in the article is presently making.Icewhiz (talk) 15:23, 28 May 2018 (UTC)

Ok, so if I understand you correctly, the examples cited by Medykowski do not refer specifically to Zagiew/13 and "organized groups" or to the execution of families, right? That's true enough.Volunteer Marek (talk) 16:26, 28 May 2018 (UTC)

Having caught up with some of the reading (both discussion here and sources) it seems that the Medykowski reference is talking about an organized group or at least an association of around 30 Gestapo agents in Krakow (so obviously not Zagiew/13) who mostly targeted hiding Jews, members of both Jewish and Polish Resistance, people (possibly both Polish and Jewish) who were trying to help Jews escape to Hungary, as well as Poles who forged documents, in addition to using their position as Gestapo collaborators to settle personal scores or enrich themselves by getting others sent to the camps. In addition to operating as a group in cooperation with Gestapo, some of them, particularly the two women noted in the quotes below, sometimes operated on their own initiative. And they did use "provocateur" tactics of pretending to be from the resistance or similar, though not necessarily the tactic of pretending to be ghetto escapees (at least I have't come across that being explicitly mentioned). I mean, these kind of "provocateur" tactics were SOP for Gestapo agents. So yes, this source is related in general (and the stories behind it are fascinating) but not specifically to this text.

A source which is probably more related directly to this text would be Jonas Turkow's C'était ainsi: 1939-1943, la vie dans le ghetto de Varsovie but I can only find quotes from it and it's in French, but it does appear to discuss the activities of Leon Skosowski and others which are in line with what the text says.Volunteer Marek (talk) 17:33, 28 May 2018 (UTC)

Analysis and suggestion

The statement the RfC is about is this:

One of the Jewish collaborationist groups' baiting techniques was to send agents out as supposed ghetto escapees who would ask Poles for help; if they agreed to, the household was reported to the Germans, who (as a matter of announced policy) executed the entire family or arrested those willing to help Jews.

Neither the existence of Jewish collaborationist groups, nor the Nazis' violence towards "helpers" are in dispute (although the details and exact phrasing of the above are not necessarily accurate), nor is the employment of entrapment ("baiting") by colloaborationist groups of all colors, as well as their Gestapo and police operators. We'll focus on the following:

One of the Jewish collaborationist groups' baiting techniques was to send agents out as supposed ghetto escapees who would ask Poles for help

This text suggests that:

1. These groups targeted Poles as part of their usual modus operandi
2. That they had multiple tactics for entrapping the Poles they targeted
3. They alone used those tactics

We have no RS to support either of these statements. What do we have? This statement was first entered into the article over two months ago, backed by a blog called "Salon24" and an article at the finance magazine "money.pl" [50]. Only this past week were these sources finally get replaced with four new sources, who by and large do not support the generalization (not to say accusation) made in the text.

My suggestion is this: Scrap the text and start over, this time in a way that doesn't look like it tries to implicate Jews in what was probably a widespread phenomenon. Does anyone here really think Jewish collaborators sat through he night thinking how to incriminate Polish families? Does anyone really think collaborators of all colors did not incriminate their own when the Gestapo asked them to? Does anyone doubt the Gestapo did do all of that and more to stop, deter and punish resistors? Scrap the text and start over. François Robere (talk) 13:24, 28 May 2018 (UTC)

Sigh. Come on, quit playing.

1. 1 Of course they targeted Poles, who else were they suppose to target in order to arrest Poles? This is a absurd objection.
2. 2 This is your own personal inference which is not actually implied by the text. If it's such a huge deal we can change it from "One of" to "One". Done.
3. 3 What? How the hell do you get that from the text? And what does it mean? This objection makes no sense and pretty much betrays that the purpose of these objections is not to improve the article via substantive and constructive critique but to simply remove some text according to your WP:IJUSTDONTLIKEIT.

Try harder.Volunteer Marek (talk) 14:08, 28 May 2018 (UTC)

Drop the attitude, Marek.

1. Who targeted Poles? Which groups? Who led them? Who were their members? Who were their contacts? You're speculating about something you have no proof of whatsoever. The only groups we do know of - the only ones we have enough RS on to have included in the article - operated within ghettos, against Jews - they didn't roam the countryside looking for Polish families to entrap.
2. Of course it is implied by the text - it literally says "one of the... groups' baiting techniques" - meaning there were several.
3. Well, the text ascribes it to "Jewish collaborationist groups", not "collaborationist groups" in general. If it wasn't "uniquely Jewish", then why frame it as such? Why not present it as a "general purpose" collaborationist tactic?

François Robere (talk) 19:18, 28 May 2018 (UTC)

You're doing it again. Constantly changing topics and questions as a way of deflecting and destroying productive discussion. Who targeted Poles? That wasn't your previous objection. Your previous objection was that the text claimed the Poles were targeted. Now you're trying to change what your objection is after I've pointed out how absurd your original statement was. But hey, I can answer this too:

Who targeted Poles? A group of about 30 agents working with Gestapo, whose members included Diament, Appel, Puretz and Brandsetter.

Who led them? Well, they all worked for Gestapo. The commanding officer for the group was Rudolf Korner. Diament appeared to be senior in this group, although Brandsetter was involved with Korner and that gave her considerable power.

Who were their members? Already listed above.

Who were their contacts? What does this even mean and why is it relevant? You're inventing arbitrary criteria.

So no, I'm NOT speculating. And yes, there is "proof" (in terms of source material). And no, this group did NOT operate within the ghetto. It operated mostly outside of it and targeted both Poles and Jews. Same was true for Zagiew/13 in Warsaw.

And this group was indeed uniquely Jewish. As was Zagiew/13 in Warsaw.

All of this is pretty straight forward and has already been said. So once again I find myself in a position where I have this very strong feeling that I'm not in a discussion with someone acting in good faith.Volunteer Marek (talk) 13:33, 29 May 2018 (UTC)

I didn't change the subject. If you claim to have knowledge of a group, then you ought to know things like "who leads it" or "who are its members". If you know none of those things (and remember we're talking historical, not current events), then your claim of "knowing of a group" is questionable. Also, notice your previous answer ("of course they targeted Poles, who else were they suppose to target in order to arrest Poles?") is an example of circular reasoning.

Regardless of whether all of them were part of a single group (and from what I'm seeing the author doesn't make that claim), it's still just one group, mentioned in one source (an "isolated study", per WP:SCHOLARSHIP). It's hardly enough to establish what the text claims. François Robere (talk) 18:53, 29 May 2018 (UTC)

"If you claim to have knowledge of a group, then you ought to know things like "who leads it" or "who are its members". If you know none of those things " - listen fellah, I already answered these questions repeatedly and you could have answered them yourself if you had actually bothered looking at the quote from the source already provided. This is exactly the kind of behavior that derails these discussions. That and inventing absurd requirements like "isolated study", whatever the hey that's suppose to mean.Volunteer Marek (talk) 19:42, 29 May 2018 (UTC)

If you had kept your temper in check, you would've been much better at this. The flow of the above is as follows:

"they" targeted Poles -> Who targeted Poles? -> You're... changing topics and questions -> I didn't change the subject. If you claim to have knowledge of a group... etc. etc.

As I said, "isolated study" is per WP:SCHOLARSHIP. François Robere (talk) 21:00, 29 May 2018 (UTC)

Please refrain from making passive-aggressive personal attacks and taunts such as "If you had kept your temper in check, you would've been much better at this". You've been warned about this kind of behavior before. And it is yet another way which derails productive discussions.

And no, that was not the flow of discussion:

Initially you objected to the assertion that groups which tried to get Poles arrested ... targeted Poles.

Then I pointed out the absurdity of such an objection.

So then you changed it from "whom did they target", to "who did the targeting". Hence me pointing out that you changed the nature of the objection, which you did. Nonetheless I answered your new objection.

You then asserted that you did not change the objection and proceeded to completely ignore the fact that your new objection had already been answered, more than once.

And here, rather than admitting that this objection has been answered you instead resort to sophomoric personal attacks about my temper (not sure how you can have knowledge of what my temper actually is).

And this isn't an "isolated study", but nice try.Volunteer Marek (talk) 11:02, 30 May 2018 (UTC)

It wasn't a taunt, it was a comment on how you got lost in the flow of the discussion for no reason except your temper. If you weren't so busy looking for bad faith and making tasteless comments towards others ("Sigh. Come on, quit playing... Try harder" and so on) these discussions might've actually been amicable. Instead we're again at an impasse, as you're so preoccupied with reading things into what I wrote that you're not reading what I actually wrote. That's unfortunate, but not unexpected ([51]). François Robere (talk) 14:13, 30 May 2018 (UTC)

It was a taunt and a PERSONAL ATTACK. Look, it's simple - quit making snide comments about your perceptions of my "temper". Whether here or at some ANI discussion (what does that have to do with anything?) Volunteer Marek (talk) 13:30, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

@E-960:@Pincrete: continued from the discussion in the survey above.

Let's look at what the sources say, shall we? Prekerowa (as quoted) says "The gravest provocation involving Jews took place in 1943, some 100 km east of Warsaw; a Jewish Gestapo agent posing as a fugitive was given, or promised, help by 14 inhabitants of the village of Paulinów." No direct evidence that this was a systematic trend: at best, it is very subtly implied in the first part of the sentence, but using this source to support the claim in the article would be WP:SYNTH since the author doesn't state it directly.

Kierlyak isn't much better. Ignoring the reliability problem, "[In a] large-scale German operation... use was made of provocation." does not support saying "One of the Jewish collaborationist groups' baiting techniques was to send agents out as supposed ghetto escapees who would ask Poles for help;", because: a) it does not ascribe this tactic to "Jewish collaborationist groups", but rather to a "German operation". Assuming that the Jews who were involved in the operation were part of a larger collaborationist group is blatant WP:OR. b) it does not support this being a recurring pattern. The text only says that "[as part of a larger] German operation [...] use was made of provocation". As far as we know, this could have happened only once, and any claim that this was a general pattern is WP:SYNTH.

Next, if I trust Google translate, Medykowski doesn't say this tactic was used to target ordinary Polish families. Rather, "It happened, however, that provocations were arranged to arrest people having contacts with the underground, mediating the production of false documents or dealing with human smuggling and illegal trade." Again, a) the tactic is not attributed to a "Jewish collaborationist group", but to the Gestapo itself! b) Apparently, the text doesn't make the direct link that the agent was posing as a ghetto escapee (though such a conclusion would not be totally illocigal, but it would remain WP:SYNTH. Quoting the rest, from Google translate again, (segments in brackets [] corrected for grammar): "For example, in 1942, to Elżbieta Jasińska, who had contacts with the conspiracy, came Marta Puretz, asking for the creation of a Kennkarte. Jasińska agreed to get her this document for PLN 2,000. Puretz was to report to her in two days. However, when she came to her at the appointed time, the Gestapo came under the house, Jasińska was arrested and then deported to Auschwitz. When later Jasińska's brother-in-law met Marta Puretz on the street without the armband, he ordered her to arrest her. However, [when she was] at the police station [on] Franciszkańska [street] identified herself with the document of a Gestapo collaborator and was released."

Finally, and trusting Google still, the IPN document does not make the above generalisation either, and it again says that the tactic originated from Germans, "The Germans were very active in combating all forms of violation of occupational rights, often using provocation." This is the nearest thing to supporting the disputed text, but again since most of the "Jewish collaboration" is described as coming from individuals, to be acceptable, the text would need to read: "Use of provocateurs, agents posing as Jews and seeking help from Polish inhabitants, was one tactic used by the Germans to combat resistance." 198.84.253.202 (talk) 12:53, 29 May 2018 (UTC)

Please see my comment above. I agree that the Medykowski source discusses a different but similar phenomenon from that described in the relevant text - that of Gestapo using Jewish collaborators to target Polish and Jewish underground and Jews who were attempting to escape to Hungary (the two were obviously connected since you needed the former to do the latter). I think the best way to deal with it is to have a separate sentence about this Krakow-based group and its activities, while we figure out the best way to deal with the "one of the tactics" sentence.Volunteer Marek (talk) 13:45, 29 May 2018 (UTC)

Which would be UNDUE and also ORish (though an improvement) - as we're making the extension from a set of described incidents to some sort of tactic (in this case Germans using Jews) - without a source actually saying this - over several years and millions of people one could find an example of almost anything (If I find a few examples of a Jewish gestapo agent raping a Polish women - does that become a tactic too?). Germans also used Polish and other non-Jewish agents.... As for how we got here - we started with this sentence sourced to a far-right blog on salon24 - and then when that was challenged - some effort was made to find any source possible mentioning Jewish+agent+gestapo (and we ended up with 3 marginal sources describing Paulinów, and Medykowski describing something else) - and sticking this set of references onto the previous BLOG sourced (and copied) text. This isn't how we develop articles - we're supposed to WP:BALASP per the sources available, not start out with a fringe narrative and attempt to stick onto it any marginal source we can find.Icewhiz (talk) 13:48, 29 May 2018 (UTC)

It would be neither. It would not be UNDUE because this is an article ... about collaboration. And it wouldn't be OR because we have sources which state this explicitly. We have source which calls it a "tactic". And no, the Medykowski and IPN sources are not "marginal". And just because a "far-right blog" once wrote about it, doesn't mean that there isn't a reliable academic literature on the subject.Volunteer Marek (talk) 13:56, 29 May 2018 (UTC)

As for how we got here - we started with this sentence sourced to a far-right blog on salon24 - and then when that was challenged - some effort was made to find any source possible mentioning Jewish+agent+gestapo (and we ended up with 3 marginal sources... and sticking this set of references onto the previous BLOG sourced (and copied) text. This isn't how we develop articles - we're supposed to WP:BALASP per the sources available, not start out with a fringe narrative and attempt to stick onto it any marginal source we can find.: That's an important observation, Icewhiz, and one that marks a pattern: We've seen it with the previous RfC discussion, on RSN and AfD - contentious, poorly-sourced or synthed statements, who their proponents hold as authoritative and insist should be kept for weeks or months; until an RfC ensues, whereupon they (often) quickly capitulate and start a hasty search for better sources to support the same problematic statements. This violates any number of policies (WP:RS, WP:NPOV, WP:DGF), and isn't how an encyclopedia should be written. François Robere (talk) 10:33, 30 May 2018 (UTC)

Are you referring to me specifically? If so, I'm going to ask you to strike that completely false assertion. And the purpose of this false attack appears to be to distract from the fact that the current text, whatever it was at some point sourced to, is currently sourced to reliable sources.Volunteer Marek (talk) 11:13, 30 May 2018 (UTC)

References

a prerequisite for higher education ?

What is higher education? Certainly not universities or colleges, because ethnic Poles weren't allowed to study. Xx236 (talk) 15:55, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

Perhaps the text needs to be re-worded

Perhaps the statement under the RfC discussion should be re-worded so it does not specifically refer to "collaborationist groups", in this source "Patterns of Cooperation, Collaboration and Betrayal" located here: [52] there are many examples of individual Jewish agent provocateurs, and simple snitches. It is also very well referenced in the foot notes. Here are some examples, but the paper cites numerous others:

Historian Elżbieta Rączy identified a number of cases in the Rzeszów region where Jews apprehended by the Germans or Jewish agents provocateurs—as in the case of a group of Jewish prisoners from the Pustków labour camp sent into the countryside to search out Jews in hiding—betrayed fellow Jews and their Polish benefactors.

A Jewish partisan group led by Edmund Łukawiecki, which operated in the forests north of Lubaczów (Puszcza Solska), executed a young Jewish woman who had betrayed at least one family of Jews in hiding and tried to infiltrate the partisan group.

A Jew from Wołomin named Rubin, who was captured by the Germans after joining up with a band of fugitive Soviet soldiers, betrayed numerous farmers who helped the Soviet partisans in that area. As a result, more than a score of Poles were executed in the villages of Brzóza and Zarzetka near Łochów. Some of the Polish victims were beaten and shot by Rubin himself.

In a few cases Jews were killed before they could bring ruination to their benefactors and their families. After his capture in Polichna near Brzozówka, a Jew by the name of Icek Wagman identified various peasants who had sheltered him. A sergeant at the police station killed Wagman before the arrival of the German gendarmes. Another Polish policeman reacted similarly when a weary Jew appeared at an outpost near Tarnów and incriminated many Poles who had assisted him. The Jew was executed before the return of the German commander. After the war, the Polish policeman was sentenced to death for his misdeed.

In the end it is also very important to know who unleashed this hell, the Germans, and who played everyone:

The Germans played a large part in encouraging and exploiting friction between the conquered peoples, and pitting them against each other. In November 1939 in Łódź, the Germans conscripted some Jews to help destroy the Kościuszko monument in Wolności Square. The Germans then set fire to two synagogues and blamed the Poles for burning them down in retaliation for the destruction of the Kościuszko monument by the Jews. (The Germans, of course, were actually responsible for the destruction of the monument.) In the spring of 1941, the Germans ordered the Jews to demolish the Catholic church in Sanniki. They took photographs of this and used the incident to foment anger among the Poles against the Jews

The impact of German propaganda on Jewish attitudes is not widely acknowledged, however, it was significant. According to one Jewish survivor, “We also did not think about why they [the Germans] wanted to kill us. We knew that we were like rats. Their propaganda not only influenced the Gentiles, it also influenced us Jews. It took away from us our human dignity.”28 The German-sponsored Polish language press claimed that the closure of ghetto in Warsaw “was the wish of the majority of inhabitants of Warsaw.” Jews played into this strategy by spreading anti-Polish propaganda, going so far as to claim that the Poles were inciting the Germans.

Not surprisingly, as Emanuel Ringelblum notes in his wartime journal, hatred towards Polish Christians grew in the Warsaw ghetto because, incredible as it may seem, it was widely believed that the Poles were responsible for the economic restrictions that befell the Jews.

--E-960 (talk) 09:48, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

This WP:SPS by Mark Paul has been described in RS (very briefly) as an anti Jewish tract and as propagating a myth. It is not an appropriate source. This attempt to draw generalizations about Jews at large from poorly attested incidents (in some cases, from the words of those who killed Jews and attempted to justify their actions) - is not acceptable.Icewhiz (talk) 09:56, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

It's not a self-published book, this is just a PDF document which summarizes other RELIABLE sources (it does not bring forth "new claims" or "research", in any case every one of the examples is heavily sourced, by reliable main stream books and works. In other words, we can just cite those individual references in the article. --E-960 (talk) 10:18, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

This is a highly inappropriate self published document. You actually suggested above to blame Jews of collaboration based on the say so of Polish murderers, who were collaboraters serving in the blue police, who attempted post war (prior to their conviction) to claim they killed the Jews to defend Poles. Aha. If this is an example of anything (with a better source) - it is an example of something else.Icewhiz (talk) 10:35, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

Then go and find those RS yourself. There's plenty of space for introducing biases by merely "summarizing" RS sources, as you well know. François Robere (talk) 11:02, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

Ok, here is one; Simon Lavee (Łukawiecki), Jewish Hit Squad: The Łukawiecki Partisans Unit of the Polish Armia Krajowa, 1941–1944 (Jerusalem and Springfield, New Jersey: Gefen, 2015), 3–18. [53] --E-960 (talk) 12:37, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

Hardly mainstream - held by four libraries world wide. And from Google Books, it appears that two of the subject's sons object to the portrayal. And from the author's description on Google Books - he's an attorney - does he have any qualifications as a historian? Nor is the book cited in Google Scholar. Ealdgyth - Talk 12:56, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

Whether RS or not, this still fails to support the generalization in the RfC, i.e. the use of "Jewish collaborationist groups" for such "agents provocateurs" missions, given that it again discusses individual cases... 198.84.253.202 (talk) 14:35, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

Ealdgyth, you are doing mental gymnastics trying to discredit the source, just looking at Wikipedia:Identifying reliable sources, I'm not seeing criterial such as 'number of libraries' or 'Google Scholar'. --E-960 (talk) 15:57, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

please do not ascribe motivations to other editors. One way to identify if a work is mainstream is how many libraries hold it as well as how many other scholars cite it. The authors qualifications also have a bearing on how mainstream a work is. Ealdgyth - Talk 16:37, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

Not really, as that can be manipulated by sending copies to libraries.Slatersteven (talk) 10:56, 3 June 2018 (UTC)

@Slatersteven: While one can, perhaps, easily (at some cost, and assuming the libraries are amendable to cataloging anything - and many aren't, as they do not want the overhead of on-going mgmt of the book and want to maintain their own reputation) - inflate library holdings by sending out freebies...... It is difficult to manipulate libraries so that they will not hold a book (what would you do? start a smear campaign via e-mail? Go to each library and steal the books?) - so while wide holdings might not be a sufficient indicator of notability/reliability, very scant holdings of a book is a pretty big red flag regarding reliability and undueness.Icewhiz (talk) 11:43, 3 June 2018 (UTC)

I'll also note that Google Scholar IS a citation index, which are mentioned in WP:IRS as an important part of identifying reliable sources. The lack of citations to a work in Google Scholar, combined with the lack of qualifications of the author and the lack of holdings in libraries does indeed make a work less than mainstream. Ealdgyth - Talk 11:49, 3 June 2018 (UTC)

[54]. So yes books do get banned from some libraries.Slatersteven (talk) 12:17, 3 June 2018 (UTC)

Do you understand that library count and Google Scholar, are not determining factors if a source is reliable per Wikipedia:Identifying reliable sources, the only thing you managed to confirm is that the book is not widely circulated, it does not mean, though, that it is an unreliable source. This is so pathetic, at this point you basically hold to the view that if Google does not have it, it does not exist, so Google is now the decider what people will see and consider real or not. --E-960 (talk) 12:23, 3 June 2018 (UTC)

Please stop with the ascribing of motivations and thoughts to other editors. I've asked you before, please stop. Note that I did not say a word about reliable. My point was that a lack of library holdings and a lack of other scholars citing a work makes it likely that the work is not mainstream in the scholarship. I do not agree that what I was pointing out was "that if Google does not have it, it does not exist, so Google is now the decider what people will see and consider real or not". That's not what I said or meant and it is not helpful to the conversation. Ealdgyth - Talk 12:27, 3 June 2018 (UTC)

Should we switch the reference format to use Template:sfn instead??

Since there are a lot of books/academic publications cited, and Template:sfn is really much cleaner and more readable. 198.84.253.202 (talk) 14:49, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

As you know I use {{r}} myself. I've been advised on the template's TP that {{sfn}} is somewhat fragile, but if the citations are checked after insertion there's no reason not to use it. François Robere (talk) 10:20, 5 June 2018 (UTC)

Winstone on fear

User:E-960 made this change. Here's some context:

Extended content

It may therefore reasonably be said that only a minority actively helped Jews, just as a minority actively persecuted them. As in every other country, the response of the largest part of society was indifference with varying degrees of sympathy, ambivalence or enmity. It is undoubtedly true that a major inhibition to greater help was fear. Frank’s shooting order of October 1941 had left rescuers potentially liable to the death penalty. Although the numbers so punished were less than might have been expected (in the hundreds), the threat was real, as demonstrated by the fate of Mieczysław Wolski and his nephew Janusz Wysocki who were executed together with Ringelblum and the other 33 Jews they were hiding in March 1944. In the countryside, there was a genuine fear of collective reprisals, whether against families or the whole village, which helps to explain why some farmers changed their minds or other villagers attempted to expel the Jews, especially since, as in other respects, the sołtys did face real pressures from the Germans. However, there were many crimes which carried the death penalty in the General Government. As Michał Berg put it, it was clear that the Poles ‘were a courageous people, and were threatened with death not only for sheltering Jews, but for many other things’, such as smuggling or underground work. Yet ‘they kept right on doing them. Why was it that only helping Jews scared them?’ It may well be that the risk of hiding a Jew was greater, but that is in itself suggestive since the Germans were not the only danger. Rather too many survivors’ accounts echoed the experience of Leon Weliczker at liberation: his rescuer Kalwinski ‘asked us not to come back to visit him or for any other reason; it would be hard for him if it were known that he had hidden Jews’. Furthermore, fear can only adequately explain sins of omission – such as the refusal or even cessation of shelter – not those of commission like denunciation or murder. ... The behaviour of Gentiles during Aktion Reinhard therefore presented a less than wholly edifying picture. It should be repeated that such a conclusion is not a judgement on Poles (or Ukrainians) but, sadly, on human nature. This was a pattern repeated across the continent. That responses were sometimes more extreme in the GG than in most other territories may primarily be seen as reflection of the fact that it was the central killing ground. Indeed, it could be argued that making judgements about national character – positive or negative – may not be the wisest lesson to draw from the Holocaust. Rather, one suspects that few people could honestly say how they would have reacted in such situations. (Winstone (2014), pp. 183-184)

François Robere (talk) 15:38, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

François Robere, ok, I made the change, but the suggestion to include this statement was made by Xx236, and minor adjustments were recommend by 198.84.253.202. So, this statement was hardly my own initiative, but rather one of the few examples of compromise. --E-960 (talk) 15:52, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

Noted. It's still problematic, as it seems - again - like synthesis for the sake of apologetics, rather than a straightforward summary of Winstone. François Robere (talk) 15:57, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

Here is the discussion Talk:Collaboration in German-occupied Poland#Academic book about the GG, so this statement was done through consensus, yet you just took it down in one swipe, let's not return to the bad habit of deleting entire sections of text. --E-960 (talk) 16:09, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

That someone failed to notice - is not an excuse for text that grossly misrepresents the sources - and our text at the moment clearly misrepresents Winstone. I'll note that we probably should add content from Fear: Anti-Semitism in Poland after Auschwitz - which seems quite relevant and is a widely cited book (over 350 citations by scholar).Icewhiz (talk) 16:21, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

Just stop with the overblown statements of disapproval, this is really coming across as a case of Wikipedia:I just don't like it. The text simply says that most Poles did not help or on the other hand did not persecute Jew. That's exactly what Winstone says. Also, this statement was re-edited by other editors who think it still accurate enough, so we are not going to just remove text when user FR or you decide that you don't like it — you're not going to re-challenge every statement in the article, every several days, until you get your way and it's removed. It's obvious that this is what you are doing. --E-960 (talk) 16:31, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

• Btw, the book by Gross that you are referencing to, is about post-war events, so it does not relate to collaboration. Also, Gross has been criticized for synthesis, taking a the Kielce pogrom and assuming that happened everywhere. --E-960 (talk) 18:48, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

No, this is coming across as "none of you read the source and you're quoting it based on a review." The text has a complex position which, I might add, I very much agree with: That the issue at hand is not one of nationality, but of individuals' choice. As such, quoting it as if it acquits Poles as a nation of antisemitism and its ilk is not only WP:SYNTH - it's deceptive. François Robere (talk) 18:19, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

Please, you challenge every statement in this article (even if the text was added through consensus), and if you fail to get your way, you just re-start the discussion a few days later, this is a clear case of Wikipedia:I just don't like it and WP:FORUMSHOP. --E-960 (talk) 18:30, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

Let's go with this, sentence by sentence. Taking what is presently in the article:

Historian Martin Winstone writes that only a minority of Poles actually took part in persecuting or helping the Jews.

This is directly supported by the first sentence directly from Winstone, who says "It may therefore reasonably be said that only a minority actively helped Jews, just as a minority actively persecuted them." Next:

Winstone also downplays claims regarding the purported Polish lack of resolve in saving Jews in German-occupied Poland, noting that the tendency not to help was due more to natural human wariness rather than to ethnocentrism.

Again, this is supported by the original text from Winstone, who says "As in every other country, the response of the largest part of society was indifference with varying degrees of sympathy, ambivalence or enmity. It is undoubtedly true that a major inhibition to greater help was fear." and "It should be repeated that such a conclusion is not a judgement on Poles (or Ukrainians) but, sadly, on human nature. This was a pattern repeated across the continent. That responses were sometimes more extreme in the GG than in most other territories may primarily be seen as reflection of the fact that it was the central killing ground. Indeed, it could be argued that making judgements about national character – positive or negative – may not be the wisest lesson to draw from the Holocaust."
In short, Winstone says that the vast majority of Poles were indifferent (neither collaborating nor resisting) to what was happening (something which can be explained mostly by fear, i.e. as quoted "a major inhibition to greater help was fear."), and that this isn't caused by ethnocentric tendencies (i.e. as quoted "such a conclusion is not a judgement on Poles (or Ukrainians)") but by human nature - which, surprise, also happens to be exactly what is said in the article... 198.84.253.202 (talk) 18:34, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

Discussion (Winstone)

I agree, this statement is quite accurate to what the entire text by Winstone says, and you made a couple of minor adjustments such as removing the word "blatant" and I think that's fine, in order to make the text more neutral. --E-960 (talk) 18:44, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

You're doing a very narrow reading of a broad text. That chapter covers a variety of behaviors, including some of the worst that were exhibited in Poland during those times. He doesn't "downplay" anything, least of all anti-Semitism; nor does he say anything about "weariness". What he does do is claim this shouldn't be used for generalizations of the kind this very text tries to do, and that all of this should be judged on the individual's level: He describes both Polish, German and Ukrainian people who took part in either saving or destroying lives, and even gives an almost ambivalent description of Hans Frank. "The Holocaust was made possible at every stage by moral choices" - it's a complex message, and one that directly contradicts the subtext of what you're trying to include - that people do not bear responsibility for their choices. François Robere (talk) 20:14, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

No. The text here says "whole nationalities do not bear responsibility for the choices of individuals" and that is exactly what it says. Saying it is "caused by human nature" does not excuse it. As for what the source says and what is in the article, we have a secondary source (i.e. the review) analyzing what is written - per WP:SECONDARY, "Wikipedia articles usually rely on material from reliable secondary sources". Winstone's book is a secondary source about the events it describes, but a primary source for what is written in it. Since we disagree on what it says exactly, we should trust the review of the book more than our gut feelings about what we think Winstone is saying, especially since the reading it makes is more reliable than the interpretation random wikipedians can make - by relying on the review, we avoid possible POV problems while making sure that the text represents the source accurately... 198.84.253.202 (talk) 22:45, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

• Comment: I find that the content, as added, does not quite match the spirit of Winstone's text. He does not "downplay" the responsibility. If he "downplays" anything, it's perhaps the effect of the death penalty for aiding Jews on the Polish population. In another thread, I pointed out a source that says that the death penalty was a common form of punishment under the German rule across Eastern Europe, for many forms of active or passive resistance, including aiding the Jews. Winstone says: "However, there were many crimes which carried the death penalty in the General Government. (...) Yet ‘they [Polish citizens] kept right on [resisting]. Why was it that only helping Jews scared them?’". Winstone provides a nuanced discussion of what has occurred, without excusing or vilifying. I think this is missing in the content that I see in the diff at the top of the thread. K.e.coffman (talk) 23:21, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

Again, not all Poles helped Jews and not all Poles worked for the Resistance, most were on the sideline (scared to help and scared to fight). I would say the current statement in article is fair, however this discussion is a type of WP:FORUMSHOP initiated by user François Robere. If you notice his comments in the initial discussion he did not object to the wording, now in bulk he is questioning several statements at once. We are not going to re-open every discussion because of the Wikipedia:I just don't like it now argument, when the same editor keeps challenging multiple statement and when they don't get their way in a discussion, than a week or two later they just re-open the debate. --E-960 (talk) 23:49, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

I commented on whether the text in the diff matched the source. To me, it did not. K.e.coffman (talk) 00:01, 3 June 2018 (UTC)

@K.e.coffman: Is this more acceptable or is it worse? 198.84.253.202 (talk) 02:00, 3 June 2018 (UTC)

198.84.253.202, E-960 You both admit this is a statement about human nature, then why are you proposing it for this article rather than for non-nationality-specific Collaboration with the Axis Powers or the Holocaust? François Robere (talk) 10:12, 3 June 2018 (UTC)

I think the newly proposed text by 198.84.253.202 is quite acceptable, and at this point should resolve any more objections. --E-960 (talk) 10:51, 3 June 2018 (UTC)

@François Robere: I fail to see how an author who directly discusses the subject matter (collaboration with the Nazis in Poland, even giving Poland-specific examples) is not relevant to this article. Winstone also serves as a useful comparison with other countries - after all, Nazi occupation/the Holocaust wasn't limited to just Poland... 198.84.253.202 (talk) 13:20, 3 June 2018 (UTC)

I didn't say he's not relevant, I said your attempt to draw this particular conclusion from that particular text is misguided, and doesn't actually reflect what he wrote (what K.e.coffman calls "the spirit of the text"). François Robere (talk) 13:31, 3 June 2018 (UTC)

François Robere, "It may therefore reasonably be said that only a minority actively helped Jews, just as a minority actively persecuted them." this is the first sentence of the text which you provided above, and this is what's in the article now "Historian Martin Winstone writes that only a minority of Poles actually took part in persecuting or helping the Jews.". I think that it is pretty accurate, and same goes for the the other sentences, they capture the "spirit" of the text quite well. --E-960 (talk) 13:40, 3 June 2018 (UTC)

That sentence alone isn't contended. If you want to quote just that for "statistical purposes", shall we say, be my guest. The rest is a different matter. François Robere (talk) 15:18, 3 June 2018 (UTC)

The problem is that you did not even bother to specify what part of the original statement you have an issue with, you keep moving the goal posts on this topic. --E-960 (talk) 17:18, 3 June 2018 (UTC)

I apologize if I wasn't clear. The two statements were added in the same revision, and I assumed you wanted them both. François Robere (talk) 04:22, 4 June 2018 (UTC)

What do you mean "I assumed you wanted them both"? Again, I was not the editor that proposed this source and text, just added it per other's suggestion. In any case, I'm assuming you are now fine with the neutrality changes that the IP 198.84.253.202 made earlier in relation to you comment, if you were able to notice them. However, you still did not say, what part of the original statement you had an issue with, which is very questionable in light of the current AE discussion on arguing against reference sources. --E-960 (talk) 06:04, 4 June 2018 (UTC)

Yeah, but I didn't know that, did I? Again, the problem was with the flattening of a complex "global" message to suit a narrow, ethnic narrative. It's more than just an arithmetic composition of words - "remove that word, add this one". The IP's suggestion is an improvement over the previous statement, but still isn't a good summary of the text. Nevertheless, it's good enough that we can keep it for the meanwhile, seeing as we have more pressing concerns resulting from the policy changes the AE case will bring. François Robere (talk) 12:20, 4 June 2018 (UTC)

At this point the revised text captures the full statement by Winstone quite well. I don't see a need to keep revisiting the issue. --E-960 (talk) 18:16, 4 June 2018 (UTC)

Again, not really. The relevant segment is several paragraphs long, and I didn't quote all of them. A proper summary of that segment must give an idea of the complexity of behavior and motives that he describes, which this fails to do. But again, as the biased subtext is gone, we can keep it for the time being. François Robere (talk) 18:49, 4 June 2018 (UTC)

First, you just deleted the entire text without gaining a consensus of any kind, or even stating on the talk page what your issue was with this text, now you can't even point to a particular passage or passages you have a problem with. This type of editing behavior is very questionable, and again comes across as WP:FORUMSHOP and Wikipedia:I just don't like it. The statement was added through consensus, it has a valid source, and per you request was adjusted, at this point since you can't articulate any further issues other then just voicing you dislike. This matter in practical terms is resolved. --E-960 (talk) 19:24, 4 June 2018 (UTC)

Drop the drama, and stop making accusations. It's two sentences, not a "whole text". If I think this needs to be rephrased, I'll rephrase it. In the meanwhile, I suggest you get a copy of the book - arguing as you do based on a review is ridiculous. François Robere (talk) 21:01, 4 June 2018 (UTC)

This page is about the Collaboration in German-occupied Poland. It's not about non-helping Jews.

If non-helping Jews is collaboration, so we need Collaboration in the USA and Collaboration in the UK, because the both nations did little during the first years of WWII.

Xx236 (talk) 06:06, 4 June 2018 (UTC)

That section is about the Holocaust. It would be a flagrant one-sided, unbalanced section if we didn't mention the "general indifference by the population" or that "only very few actually collaborated in the Holocaust" or, similarly, that "only very few actually tried helping". The article subject being "collaboration" doesn't mean that we must talk only of collaboration, especially when that would introduce (additional) POV issues. 198.84.253.202 (talk) 18:44, 4 June 2018 (UTC)

How many non Jewish Poles died during the Holocaust IP? Do you know? If not check. So, who is responsible for not aiding these people? Those Poles who were “generally indifference” and somehow survived? GizzyCatBella (talk) 19:45, 4 June 2018 (UTC)

GizzyCatBella, there is a passage in Poland's Holocaust: Ethnic Strife, Collaboration with Occupying Forces [55] (pages 44-45), which perhaps should be included in the Holocaust section, to provide more depth on the controversial view that Poles lacked resolve in helping Jews because of alleged ethnocentrism that excluded Jews, this text is related to Poland and states: "...the traditional home of diaspora Jews [Poland] had to be compromised with with allegations of widespread Polish anti-semitism". This is a controversial statement, but it does provide an additional layer of perspective on this very complex topic — the publishing house is McFarland & Company.--E-960 (talk) 20:21, 4 June 2018 (UTC)

@GizzyCatBella: I fail to see how this is relevant to the Holocaust: Poles died. Germans (yes, the evil bad guys too) died. French, Italians, English, Americans, etc... died. That is the story of World War II, and it is most surely not specific to Poland... 198.84.253.202 (talk) 21:00, 4 June 2018 (UTC)

@198.84.253.202: How do you read that quote? What does it convey from your perspective? François Robere (talk) 16:45, 7 June 2018 (UTC)

Winstone still doesn't refer to anybody in particular. "The Germans were not the only danger", yes, but he doesn't precisely say what the "other dangers" are. Given the continued talk page fuss this has caused (this section and "François_Robere_misrepresenting_sources,_again"), we better just not mention that Winstone suggests anybody (because he doesn't, or if he does it's in an extremely subtle way and us writing it in the article would be WP:SYNTH). Solves the problem, once and for all (hopefully?). 198.84.253.202 (talk) 21:25, 8 June 2018 (UTC)

Enforcement again

There is another thread over at WP:AE, shall we at least wait for that to conclude before making anymore changes?Slatersteven (talk) 13:39, 3 June 2018 (UTC)

Grabowski (again)

This is what Grabowski said: (quote)

• "I never talked about 200,000 Jews murdered by Poles themselves...I said that according to my estimates, Poles might be responsible or co-responsible for the deaths of most of these people - and this is an important distinction.”

Not this

• ”In a later interview, he clarified that this number includes cases where Poles were co-responsible for the deaths by collaboration, even if the killing was done by the Germans"

So you might want to either self-revert, adjust text to reflect what he actually said or just leave the quote itself (probably the best option).GizzyCatBella (talk) 02:39, 5 June 2018 (UTC)

Both those mean the same thing. I understand English might not be your first language (neither is it for me), but its not a valid reason to claim that some text which is already repetitive enough lacks clarity. 198.84.253.202 (talk) 02:52, 5 June 2018 (UTC)

They don’t mean the same thing. I’ll explain why but please self revert first so we stick to the rule. We’ll find the compromise. Thanks.GizzyCatBella (talk) 02:59, 5 June 2018 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Clarifying, "I said that according to my estimates, Poles might be responsible or co-responsible for the deaths of most of these people" vs "In a later interview, he clarified that this number includes cases where Poles were co-responsible for the deaths by collaboration" - that means exactly the same thing, just worded differently. There was also no consensus for your change. 198.84.253.202 (talk) 03:01, 5 June 2018 (UTC)GizzyCatBella (talk) 03:14, 5 June 2018 (UTC) Also, there is no ground for self-reversal, since I validly challenged your edit (by reverting), see top of this page: "Consensus required: All editors must obtain consensus on the talk page of this article before reinstating any edits that have been challenged (via reversion) If in doubt, don't make the edit." 198.84.253.202 (talk) 03:02, 5 June 2018 (UTC)

No, this is not how I understand the rule imposed, but whatever, I’m here not to pick up the fight but make something good. So do you want to just leave the quote to make it simple or not? GizzyCatBella (talk) 03:14, 5 June 2018 (UTC)

No, I am against adding an additional quote since it repeats (maybe with a very tiny variant [read: insignificant hair-splitting]) material which is already (and even, already repeated!) in the article. 198.84.253.202 (talk) 03:18, 5 June 2018 (UTC)

OK, then this is what he said in other words:

• In a later interview, he clarified that this number includes cases where Poles might be responsible for these deaths, even if the Germans made the actual killings.

Not this:

• In a later interview, he clarified that this number includes cases where Poles were co-responsible for the deaths by collaboration, even if the killing was done by the German.

MIGHT, “might be responsible” not “were responsible” do you see the difference? Also where do you see the word COLLABORATION in his quote? It is not insignificant hair-splitting. GizzyCatBella (talk) 03:36, 5 June 2018 (UTC)

It's hair splitting, the difference in meaning is so minor its negligible - the only part which differs in exact meaning is "might be responsible for these deaths" vs. "were co-responsible for the deaths by collaborations", but that again is so similar its not worth making a fuss over it - I have slightly adjusted the article in consequence. 198.84.253.202 (talk) 03:50, 5 June 2018 (UTC)

Thank you, this works halfway so it is a compromise. DONE GizzyCatBella (talk) 04:11, 5 June 2018 (UTC)

They are the same. And both are unneeded, as we do not actually cover the distortion of his words in some Polish outlets - which is why he was asked the question (as is clear in the question asked). The bigger issue is that we still have criticism of this estimate sourced to a Facebook post of a Polish ambassador - which a shckingly poor source, UNDUE, and highly POVISH - and was edit warred into the article without consensus (as seen in RSN and talk).Icewhiz (talk) 03:52, 5 June 2018 (UTC)

The discussion at WP:AE seems rather clear that we will from now on require academic sources... Also, the above RfC (which was undertaken because of those facebook posts) will solve that issue too. 198.84.253.202 (talk) 03:55, 5 June 2018 (UTC)

Is the ruling reg. only academic sources already in place? GizzyCatBella (talk) 04:24, 5 June 2018 (UTC)

Not quite, because the discussion isn't closed yet. 198.84.253.202 (talk) 04:44, 5 June 2018 (UTC)

As per Icewhiz. Let it go. François Robere (talk) 10:26, 5 June 2018 (UTC)

NSZ and Jews

Back to this change: Does anyone have any objections, and if so - what? The main points are as follow:

• Restore Cooper as a source (Cooper was faculty at the Contemporary Europe Research Centre at the University of Melbourne; book held by ~300 libraries), without the quotations.
• Restore the text to the previous revision, such that it reflects what the source says rather than falsely claim NSZ only attacked communists partisans.
• Remove the Bauer reference - that belongs in the previous paragraph, and will be restored in a later change.

Before:

The National Armed Forces (Narodowe Siły Zbrojne, or NSZ) from time to time attacked or took prisoner Jewish partisans who were part of the communist People's Army (Armia Ludowa, or AL), a Polish partisan militia that included Jewish detachments. A single NSZ unit, the "Holy Cross Mountains Brigade", numbering 800-1,500 fighters, ceased operations against the Germans for a few months in 1944, accepted logistical help, and—late in the war, with German consent, to avoid capture by the Soviets—withdrew from Poland into Czechoslovakia. Once there, the unit resumed hostilities against the Germans and on 5 May 1945 liberated the Holýšov concentration camp, saving several hundred Jewish women. The NSZ did not have a uniform view about Jews, and though generally considered antisemitic and involved in killing and handing over Jews, it also incorporated Jewish fighters, including ones in higher command positions. Some NSZ members and units rescued Jews and postwar received Righteous Among the Nations awards.

After:

The Polish right-wing National Armed Forces (Narodowe Siły Zbrojne, or NSZ), widely perceived as anti-Semitic, did not have a uniform policy regarding Jews. It did not admit Jews except in rare cases, and from time to time killed or kidnapped Jewish partisans of other organization. The NSZ operated with the approval and occasional cooperation of the Germans. The "Holy Cross Mountains Brigade" of the NSZ, numbering 800-1,500 fighters, decided to cooperate with the Germans in late 1944. It ceased hostile operations against the Germans for a few months, accepted logistical help, and—late in the war, with German approval, to avoid capture by the Soviets—withdrew from Poland into Czechoslovakia. Once there, the unit resumed hostilities against the Germans and on 5 May 1945 liberated the Holýšov concentration camp.

The source:

Cooper, Leo (2000). In the shadow of the Polish eagle : the Poles, the Holocaust, and beyond. Houndmills, Basingstoke, Hampshire: Palgrave. p. 138. ISBN 9780333992623. OCLC 313430363.

François Robere (talk) 11:05, 5 June 2018 (UTC)

Formatting discussion (versions above in blockquotes, refs, quotation) - resolved
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
François - can you place both versions here in blockquotes and with references? Some of the references (e.g. cooper) are broken in the version you are linking too.Icewhiz (talk) 11:27, 5 June 2018 (UTC) Added. François Robere (talk) 11:54, 5 June 2018 (UTC) @François Robere: - half the references are still broken. Also, since Cooper is not available online in google books at page 149 - please provide a quotation of the relevant paragraph or point to a different online source.Icewhiz (talk) 12:29, 5 June 2018 (UTC) The references are more or less the same except for Cooper, so I didn't think it's an issue. Nevertheless, as you're commenting on it I fixed that. As for Cooper, here's the specific pages. François Robere (talk) 12:38, 5 June 2018 (UTC) I don't have an access to that page - google-books preview sometimes varies by location.Icewhiz (talk) 12:42, 5 June 2018 (UTC) I'll add the quotes. François Robere (talk) 12:44, 5 June 2018 (UTC) Just to clarify a little thing: The original revision had quotes in the refs ({{r}} templates), to mitigate potential challenges by some editors ("cherry picking", "not in source" and the like). Then other editors complained there were too many quotations. Now I suggested adding the text back without them, so I removed them in the above, but then your comment... This is all very disorderly. We need a standard for these things! François Robere (talk) 12:44, 5 June 2018 (UTC)

• Support After version. Cooper is a good source - an academic in the field who was published by Palgrave and seems to be in agreement with other sources on the subject of the NSZ. I would omit the liberation of the rather small Holýšov concentration camp three days prior to V-E day.Icewhiz (talk) 14:36, 5 June 2018 (UTC)
• Do Not Support After version First off, not related to collaboration but to fighting between two para-military organizations. Also, this new version is just another attempt in Wikipedia:Civil POV pushing by François Robere, this is an article about collaboration not anti-semitism. But, I noticed that as with most of your edits François Robere, you are determined to highlight that particular issue. So, you move the term 'anti-semitism' to the front of the paragraph. Btw, this text just sounds dumb: NSZ was 'anti-semmitic' but it "did not have a uniform policy regarding Jews", that's an oxymoron, and proves you are just trying to push POV. Also, you keep using the word 'kidnapped' when referring to Jewish partisans (again not related to collaboration), but do you understand that in a war you take opposing combatants as prisoners, and kidnap civilians. Yet you are perpetuating this victimization POV that people who were in a para-military organization were kidnaped, this is bias and inaccurate wording. --E-960 (talk) 16:47, 5 June 2018 (UTC)

To address your concerns:

1. Regardless of motive, handing off resistance fighters to the Germans authorities is by all definitions "collaboration".
2. The NSZ shared certain ideological lines with the Nazi authorities, which played a part in its choice of targets and partners. This in its own right is worth noting
3. An aspect of that is its of Jews for anti-Semitic reasons - which is part of what this article is about, and again worth noting.
4. How would you rather start the paragraph?
5. The exact phrase is "widely perceived as anti-Semitic", resolving your suggested oxymoron. Also, if you read the sources you'll see that while the organization did not have a coherent policy, its operators' common beliefs were often anti-Semitic. Many right-wing parties today exhibit the same phenomenon, where the platform isn't outright anti-Semitic, but the members and leadership are.
6. Generally speaking, combatants on the front lines are "taken prisoner", while support personnel at the rear are "kidnapped". This is similar to the use of "killed" vs. "assassinated" (and in the case of civilians - "murdered").

François Robere (talk) 17:19, 5 June 2018 (UTC)

Again, with the WP:SYNTHESIS, when you said above: "handing off resistance fighters to the Germans authorities is by all definitions collaboration", but it says "resistance fighters" not "Jewish resistance fighter" if they were fighters form a Communists paramilitary groups you can't assume automatically that it had to be Jews, that's classic WP:SYNTHESIS. --E-960 (talk) 18:37, 5 June 2018 (UTC)

• Also, where in your reference is there a distinction between as you state above "combatants on the front lines" and "support personnel at the rear" again, I don't believe the source draws that distinctions, so again you're not presenting the reference correctly. --E-960 (talk) 19:04, 5 June 2018 (UTC)

The source states that they were Jewish, and the precise word it uses is "abducted". François Robere (talk) 20:28, 5 June 2018 (UTC)

Ah ok, so now you say that the source actually uses the word "abducted" not "kidnapped". Perhaps just using a neutral terms such as "captured" would have been the best option. In any case, this just confirms to me and other editors, that your approach is not neutral, and as I stated before the current text is fine the way it is now — the changes you propose just come across as POV pushing. --E-960 (talk) 15:12, 6 June 2018 (UTC)

And what's the difference..?

Right. So instead of sanitizing what the source says by using a "neutral" term, let's just go with what the source says. Okay? François Robere (talk) 16:13, 6 June 2018 (UTC)

Again, simply no need to change the text as you propose. Also, as noted in the below discussion, there is already WP:UNDUE weight regarding Jewish partizans, since NSZ was explicitly anti-Communist, not anti-Jewish, and killed both Polish and Jewish partizans who were in the AL, or Poles and Jews who supported left-wing causes. You just want to insert a specific POV, which exclusively focuses on Jews, removing the full context of what NSZ did. --E-960 (talk) 16:24, 6 June 2018 (UTC)

So when Cooper or Zimmerman say the NSZ was anti-Semitic and targeted Jews as such, they are wrong? François Robere (talk) 16:42, 6 June 2018 (UTC)

• No - while there is some useful information in there, there's also a lot of WP:SYNTH and WP:OR and in many cases what the sources say is being exaggerate by the Wikipedia editor - Francois Robere - himself. The text does not faithfully represent the sources.Volunteer Marek (talk) 16:40, 6 June 2018 (UTC)

What in particular is OR, and how would you rephrase it? François Robere (talk) 16:42, 6 June 2018 (UTC)

Is "except in rare cases" in Piotrowski's book? Jerzy Makowiecki and Ludwik Widerszal weren't "Jewish partisans" as the text falsely claims. "with approval and occasional cooperation" is not the same thing as "tacit approval" (Cooper also doesn't actually list any examples of actual cooperation, or what exactly does "cooperation" mean in this context). Do the sources actually say that the Holy Cross Mountains Brigade "decided to cooperate with the Germans in late 1944" and do they explain what this "cooperation" involved? That's just some of it.Volunteer Marek (talk) 16:51, 6 June 2018 (UTC)

And oh yeah, why are you removing info about the liberation of Jewish women from the concentration camp and the fact that some NSZ members were recognized as Righteous Among Nations? It appears sourced, so this just looks like gratuitous POV pushing (basically the same consistent WP:AGENDA that has characterized your edits from the beginning - add anything negative about Poles, remove anything positive about Poles) Volunteer Marek (talk) 16:54, 6 June 2018 (UTC)

• Piotrowski refers to the "(rare) reports that place Jews in NSZ units". He then quotes Feliks Pisarewski-Parry, a Jewish fighter of the NSZ as "shocked" to discover the unit he joined belonged to the NSZ, saying "I was probably the only Jew in the ranks of the NSZ and for that reason rescued by the NSZ!" (p. 96).
• The exact phrase used by Cooper regarding Makowiecki and Widerszal is "of Jewish origin". Zimmerman mentions the two, heads of the AK "Jewish Affairs Bureau", were Jewish (p. 123).
• As mentioned below (though possibly I wasn't clear enough), Cooper quotes from letters exchanged by an NSZ commander and German officers coordinating their operations. (p. 151 onwards).
• Cooper describes the "Holy Cross" affair as "with German approval and under German protection".
• The question on Holýšov shouldn't be directed at me, as it's not my suggestion.
• The "Righteous Among the Nations" is an issue that's pertinent to the entire article. Piotrowski gives a single example of an NSZ operator receiving RAN acknowledgment (Captain Edward Kemnitz), which some editor then used to acquit the entire NSZ (speaking of WP:AGENDA...). That's inappropriate. François Robere (talk) 10:56, 7 June 2018 (UTC)

Parry says also that 50% of partisans didn't know ideology of their organisation.Xx236 (talk) 13:34, 7 June 2018 (UTC)

References

Remove reference to NSZ and Jews entirely

I would recommend that the reference to NSZ and Jews found in the "Collaboration and resistance" section should be removed entirely from the article, because it does not relate to collaboration, but is an example of hostility between two opposing paramilitary groups. Again, no evidence that this behavior was related to collaboration, and the references presented by François Robere do not equate this with collaboration — this is a clear example of WP:SYNTHESIS. --E-960 (talk) 17:12, 5 June 2018 (UTC)

See notes above. Also see this in the source: There was in fact a silent understanding [between the Germans and the NSZ] that as long as the NSZ did not engage in any acts of sabotage against the Germans, it would be allowed to operate against Jewish partisans. François Robere (talk) 17:24, 5 June 2018 (UTC)

It is quite clear the NSZ collaborated with the Nazies in this regard.Icewhiz (talk) 17:42, 5 June 2018 (UTC)

I'd like to ask for additional sources on this, the very term "silent understanding" is extremely controversial, if it was silent how do we know about it - sounds like speculation. Every one of your explanations, yield more questions unfortunately. --E-960 (talk) 18:26, 5 June 2018 (UTC)

Cherry picked quotes and sources again. Why not use other sources such as these[56],[57], [58] that dispute straight Antisemitic motivation of NSZ actions as motivated solely by antisemitism? Of course, my sources are "fringe," not scholarly, "far-right" or everything else you'll trow at it, right? No, these sources are as good as yours. Let me tell you something, NSZ did not collaborate with the Germans in WW2. On occasion, they were allowed to operate more freely only when the Germans decided on it. NSZ was not only anti-Nazi but also anti-commusit and anti-soviet, so they clashed with communist partisans, and some of these partisans happen to be Jewish. NZS was "so anti-semitic" that they liberated the concentration camp freeing all the Jewish woman there.GizzyCatBella (talk) 19:09, 5 June 2018 (UTC)

A Yad Vashem bulletin from 1956 would be primary, and one can not tell much from the snippet. Your second source, Chodakiewicz, is a fellow covered by the SPLC and who sees Jdueo-Communism not as a slur but a historical reality - well outside the consensus of most scholars. The third source is somewhat partisan, but does not support what you are asserting above.Icewhiz (talk) 20:24, 5 June 2018 (UTC)

Piotrowski is already cited. While he's not as critical of the NSZ, he does make it clear that Jews were rare there and that the understanding at the time was that the NSZ was anti-Semitic. He suggests more evidence is needed before making a final judgement, but given that his book is now 20 years old, one can assume it's not entirely up-to-date on that. François Robere (talk) 20:42, 5 June 2018 (UTC)

He explicitly used the term "cooperation" in several places. François Robere (talk) 20:33, 5 June 2018 (UTC)

Jews were accepted by Soviet partisan troops, it's certainly not a slur. Xx236 (talk) 06:16, 6 June 2018 (UTC)

If NSZ is anti-Semitic should be discussed in another place. This page is about the collaboration.Xx236 (talk) 06:22, 6 June 2018 (UTC)

Many academic sources explicitly state collaboration - [59][60][61][62][63] - specifically, the Germans were happy to let the NSZ be as it was killing communists and Jews, and the higher echelons of the NSZ coordinated with the Germans to that effect (coordinating movements, attacks, etc.). So - the anti-Jewish and anti-communist stance of the NSZ was a principal factor in its collaboration with the Nazis.Icewhiz (talk) 06:40, 6 June 2018 (UTC)

Yes, those sources confirm the main premise that the NSZ fought the Polish communist AL (and some of the members were Jewish partizans), along with other left-wing organizations, even peasants. Here are some of the statements:

• ...NSZ was directing it's guns not at the Germans, but at the members of the Polish communist underground — the People's Guard (AL)."
• ...NSZ units collaborating with the Germans in battles against the communists in the killing of Jews and in battling against our own [Polish] left-wing underground forces... NSZ with hostility for the numerous cases of its repressive actions against the peasantry.
• ...NSZ killed 26 Jewish partizans.
• It [NSZ] was an implacable enemy of the AL, as it had decided that it's main enemy were the Russians and the Polish communists.

So, basically the text skews what NSZ was about, by focusing exclusively on the Jews. While in reality, the NSZ fought against the left-wing/communists (that should be the main focus), and killed both left-wing/communist Poles and Jews. But currently, that section text just links NSZ to the killing of Jews removed from the full context, and that's clearly WP:UNDUE weight. No where does it say they were explicitly anti-Jewish, just anti-Communist and killed everyone that was a communist. You could just as well skew the text and say NSZ was anti-peasant. --E-960 (talk) 15:51, 6 June 2018 (UTC)

Actually it does. Zimmerman is very clear on the NSZ being antisemitic and targeting Jews, and the problems it caused for AK leadership when the two partially merged in 1944 (p. 371 onwards), and Williamson seems to make a distinction between the different groups that the NSZ targeted, including Jewish partisans.

Are you objecting to the inclusion of a "Jewish" part, or to the absence of a "communist" part? I've no objection to adding material on the latter. François Robere (talk) 16:36, 6 June 2018 (UTC)

Nota bene, the Germans also "silently approved" or "tacitly" or whatever, when the Communist AL killed Jews or Home Army members. I mean, OF COURSE the Germans "silently approved" of any kind of infighting among Poles, so what? Hell, the AL and Gestapo collaborated in capturing the Krakow archives of the AK which led to the capture and death of a number of anti-Nazi resistance fighters. That right there is actual collaboration not imagined one.Volunteer Marek (talk) 16:44, 6 June 2018 (UTC)

Cooper quotes letters exchanged between the Germans and an NSZ commander in the Radom district as an example of explicit collaboration (p. 151). François Robere (talk) 16:53, 6 June 2018 (UTC)

Not sure how that relates to anything I wrote.Volunteer Marek (talk) 17:01, 6 June 2018 (UTC)

And also you're incorrect. Those aren't "letters exchanged between the Germans and an NSZ commander in the Radom district". Cooper refers to internal German documents (i.e. Germans writing Germans) and then, weirdly, does a little segue to some statements made by a guy from Hubert Jura's (Tom) unit. Now, actually Hubert Jura was a straight up Gestapo agent who infiltrated NSZ and lots of these incidents of "collaboration" can pretty much be traced to him. He had his own little group at first and only later did he contact NSZ. If I remember correctly several underground organizations had a death warrant for him (including some of the factions within NSZ or its splinter organizations). So yeah, that guy was a straight up collaborator or an agent of the Gestapo. And yeah, he was responsible for murders, including those of Jews (although in the particular case discussed in Cooper that was in fact a unit of the communist Armia Ludowa which had previously murdered some NSZ members, so it was more tit-for-tat stuff). However, to what extent Jura can be associated or said to be representative of the NSZ is debatable. Some units of the NSZ .... "late in the war", in particular the HCM Brigade, made use of his contacts with the Germans to get the hell out of Poland before the Soviets got there. They also turned on him (maybe - depends who you talk to). But this is a different aspect than all of NSZ.Volunteer Marek (talk) 17:13, 6 June 2018 (UTC)

Not sure how that relates to anything I wrote You suggested this was "imaginary" collaboration; well, Cooper gives evidence of very real one.

Those aren't "letters exchanged between the Germans and an NSZ commander in the Radom district". At least two of the letters quoted there are by Jura himself.

does a little segue to some statements made by a guy from Hubert Jura's (Tom) unit Where? From what I see there are only Jura's letters and those by two SS commanders (a letter and an agreement, to be exact).

Hubert Jura was a straight up Gestapo agent who infiltrated NSZ RS?

to what extent Jura can be associated or said to be representative of the NSZ is debatable Cooper gives him as a particularly notable example of a general phenomena, of which he gives other examples as well. François Robere (talk) 11:10, 7 June 2018 (UTC)

Oops, you're right, I was reading pg 149. For Jura, see for example [64]. He was a Gestapo agent most likely already in 1942, if not earlier. He was most certainly NOT a "notable example of a general phenomena". Most anti-German fighters were not actually German agents. If you want to include something in the article about Jura as an example of collaboration (straight up treason actually) then that's fine.Volunteer Marek (talk) 19:15, 7 June 2018 (UTC)

You can argue all you want with Cooper - he puts it as "a notable example of".

From what I'm seeing, your source uses the word "collaborator" (kolaborant) as well.

So, what do you suggest we do with everything else about NSZ being anti-Semitic and targeting Jews? François Robere (talk) 04:03, 8 June 2018 (UTC)

Zimmerman does not say they were explicitly anti-Jewish — just that NSZ killed some Jews, but that statement follows the earlier text, which bluntly says that NSZ was anti-communist, and killed Poles, Polish peasants, and Jews (basically any individuals who were left-wing). You're just proof texting, and ignoring all the other statements, which say that NSZ was anti-communist above all else, and everyone they suspected of being communist Pole or Jew got killed. Really, they were so anti-Jewish that they liberated a concentration camp and freed Jews who were held captive there. --E-960 (talk) 16:57, 6 June 2018 (UTC)

From Zimmerman:

Despite its new affiliation with theHome Army, Szymon Rudnicki has found that the part of the NSZ that swore allegiance to the Home Army and Polish government-in-exile retained entirely its antisemitic platform. That position was demonstrated in December 1943 when the NSZ’s organ printed an editorial under the title “Why Join Our Organization?” The reason, it stated, was to conduct a struggle against both the open (Germans) and hidden (Jews) enemies of the Polish people. Eventually, however, the communists came to be defined as the principal enemy.

...

The incorporation of the NSZ into the Home Army alarmed the Jews as well as the Polish Underground’s center and left factions. The London government also expressed concern about the effect this merger would have on the Home Army’s image.

...

Komorowski dispatched a report to London four days later on the state of the Home Army and its standing in Polish society. Here, Komorowski acknowledged that the NSZ’s incorporation had created a stir in underground circles. In particular, he wrote, leaders of the Peasant Party “are expressing reservations about NSZ units collaborating with the Germans in battles against the communists, in the killing of Jews, and in battles against our leftwing underground forces in some cases.”

...

Meanwhile, the Home Army commander received intelligence that the NSZ units had hunted down and murdered Jews... Referring to the area around Kielce, Gen. Komorowski continued in the following manner: “In the areas of Włoszczowa, Pińczów and Stopnica, low-level commanders of the NSZ collaborated with the Germans in the liquidation of Jews. The NSZ continues to mount attacks on the PPR and on leftwing Poles everywhere.”

So it's very clear that they targeted both left-wing and Jewish underground operatives, as well as Jewish civilians. François Robere (talk) 11:22, 7 June 2018 (UTC)

Winstone, which we discussed in another article, also states that the NSZ, like other right-wing parties, "failed to abandon anti-Semitism"; and that they occasionally targeted Jews. François Robere (talk) 13:47, 7 June 2018 (UTC)

E-960, I've been having much the same questions about the National Armed Forces (NSZ) and the Jews. I have to agree with you: the references to the NSZ and Jews should be removed entirely from this article's "Collaboration and resistance" section.

Nihil novi (talk) 00:32, 7 June 2018 (UTC)

I don't know the subject, but allegedly "Aniela Steinsbergowa and Julian Tuwim... z wdzięczności za pomoc podczas okupacji, ratowali życie sądzonym w procesach działaczom NSZ" ("in gratitude for help received during the occupation of Poland, worked to save the lives of NSZ members brought up before Polish courts"). Tuwim lived abroad, so his family helped.

So it was not only Kemnitz... Xx236 (talk) 13:29, 7 June 2018 (UTC)

Parry says also that 50% of partisans didn't know the ideology of their organisations. Xx236 (talk) 13:34, 7 June 2018 (UTC)

The Polish right-wing nationalist politician Jan Mosdorf perished at Auschwitz for helping Jews. Aren't you biased, dear editors? Xx236 (talk) 13:35, 7 June 2018 (UTC)

Three or four months ago in this current Poles-and-Jews marathon, we were presented with a complaint that the Home Army had never accepted Jews into its ranks, despite prominent examples to the contrary such as Marek Edelman, the last commander of the 1943 Jewish Warsaw Ghetto Uprising, who later fought as part of the Home Army in the 1944 Warsaw Uprising. Now we are finding Jews in all sorts of Polish underground armies, including the Home Army, the National Armed Forces, and the communist Armia Ludowa.

Can't we accept that life, in war or peace, is complex; and that, during World War II, not all Poles were crypto-Nazis, not all Germans were serial murderers, and not all Jews were perfect examples of innocent rectitude?

May we look forward to an end, within the present century, to this marathon of mutual recriminations leading nowhere?

Please let's try to accelerate this process of mud-dredging and -slinging and white-washing, so that we may get on with our lives. Thanks.

Nihil novi (talk) 14:41, 7 June 2018 (UTC)

What you suggest, Nihil novi, requires that everyone are ready to accept the historical evidence. In this very thread we see editors insisting that we drop 4+ good sources with whom they disagree, for no reason other than the fact they disagree. If every time this happens people react aggressively instead of taking the sources in, that will take much longer than anyone wants. François Robere (talk) 16:18, 7 June 2018 (UTC)

The Holocaust was designed and implemented in Berlin by higly educated German and Austrian people. Some of the editors of this and similar pages don't contribute to 99% of Holocaust pages. They prefer to re-educate some Polish people - why don't you re-educate German or Austrian people? Are you aware that the majority of Polish criminals you critize were poor and uneducated people, many of them illiterate? Many of them were punished after the war, many German Nazis weren't. Some activists in Poland teach Jewish history including Polish crimes. Errors committed by Gross and Grabowski (200,000) help to continue anti-Semiitic conspiracy theories. Noone is able to claim 200,000 victims without criminal intent, think many.

Recently Dariusz Libionka [65] has rejected the 200,000 story spread here by a highly motivated editor. Libionka quotes a number of crimes committed by ethnic Poles. He is a co-author of "Dalej jest noc". An example - a blue policeman killed a number of Jews. At the same time he hosted a Jew at his home. The history is simple for teenagers playing "World of Tanks".

Yad Vashem had informed during many years that Polish police was active in Lodz. When a Polish politician protested, he was attacked as an anti-Semite. Now the Yad Vashem admitted the error. If every time this happens people react aggressively instead of taking the sources in, that will take much longer than anyone wants. - exactly.

If Jewish survivors criticize Poles, they are reliable. If Polish survivors criticize Jews (I don't mean the Holocaust) they are anti-Semites. A historian who quoted such accounts lost his post.

Xx236 (talk) 06:38, 8 June 2018 (UTC)

Joshua Zimmerman says Part of the new tendency of historiography is a conscious attempt to stay clear of the old school of condemnation and apologetics. Instead, the new scholarship is committed to dispassionate, scholarly inquiry that stays close to the sources. Are you sure you correecltly understand his book? Or rather you pick cherries to prove that Poles were animals (comparing to whom? - the Danish King wearing a yellow star?). Xx236 (talk) 07:15, 8 June 2018 (UTC)

At this point I'm seeing that there are several editors who would support the removal of this passage, any more input from folks on this item? --E-960 (talk) 16:26, 8 June 2018 (UTC)

Yes. We have 4+ RS supporting those statements, and I've seen no reason- or policy-based argument presented again their inclusion. François Robere (talk) 17:15, 8 June 2018 (UTC)

Uhmm, at this point there are about 4 editors who in varying degrees agree that this is WP:UNDUE, and RS has nothing to do with that. --E-960 (talk) 18:11, 8 June 2018 (UTC)

None of which actually says why. If you can't explain why those 4+ RS are "undue", then it's WP:IDONTLIKEIT. François Robere (talk) 22:39, 8 June 2018 (UTC)

I think it was clearly explained that the WP:UNDUE weight comes form the fact that the NSZ was anti-communist, not-anti Jewish. --E-960 (talk) 13:08, 9 June 2018 (UTC)

No, you didn't. We have multiple sources explicitly saying it was anti-Semitic and persecuted Jews, and you have your opinion, and that's not enough for Wikipedia. François Robere (talk) 14:06, 9 June 2018 (UTC)

Widespread collaboration with the Nazis to hunt Jews and communists... The underlying motivation itself being anti-communist (and antisemitic) matters little for this still being cooeperation with the Nazi regime.Icewhiz (talk) 14:08, 9 June 2018 (UTC)

More than that: The two aren't mutually exclusive - they're complementary, given contemporous stereotypes of Jews. François Robere (talk) 14:12, 9 June 2018 (UTC)

Collaboration by Armia Ludowa (People's Army)

One glaring omission from this article is the collaboration by the communist Armia Ludowa. Generally and specifically. In particular the joint AL-Gestapo action in Krakow in February of 1944 in which they captured the archives of the Krakow Home Army (pg. 27). Volunteer Marek (talk) 21:42, 7 June 2018 (UTC)

Please see above Communist collaboration.Xx236 (talk) 06:07, 8 June 2018 (UTC)

Yes but Communist collaboration seems not be discussing AL-Gestapo action in Krakow. Should I make an effort on adding this info into the article Xx236? What other editors think? GizzyCatBella (talk) 06:13, 8 June 2018 (UTC)

I have mentioned a number of examples I know, I don't know about Krakow. Is the information available somewhere here, eg. in Armia Ludowa? If not, please start there, which isn't controversial.Xx236 (talk) 06:40, 8 June 2018 (UTC)

Please throw every bit of verifiable skulduggery by every party into this collective compost heap so that we may once and for all establish the vileness of the human species. This will prepare us well for taking up, in turn, the crimes against humanity of our own time. Nihil novi (talk) 09:40, 8 June 2018 (UTC)

I would support a short statement on the AL. --E-960 (talk) 16:22, 8 June 2018 (UTC)

It was Communist Armia Ludowa tactical cooperation? Similar to NZS? GizzyCatBella (talk) 18:37, 8 June 2018 (UTC)

Misrepresented sources, again

François Robere, I'm a not sure why you decided to change the text related to the Martin Winstone reference, from "suggesting those who hid Jews were also in danger from Polish szmalcowniks" back to "suggesting those who hid Jews were also in danger from their fellow Poles". Not only is "fellow Poles" a broad term which crudely implicates all Poles, but in your Edit Summary you wrote that "This is post-war ("at liberation"), so "szmalcowniks" were no longer an issue." How do you even justify that Winstone was talking about post-war, when in his statement he specifically talks about Germans, and Frank’s shooting order of October 1941? I ask other editors to review this text, because this again appears as a blatant misrepresentation of what the reference source actually says. --E-960 (talk) 18:05, 8 June 2018 (UTC)

Sadly it seems like a misrepresentation of sources, possibly FR made a mistake. It has been fixed now, that’s good.GizzyCatBella (talk) 18:32, 8 June 2018 (UTC)

@E-960, Volunteer Marek, and GizzyCatBella: You're really pushing WP:BATTLEGROUND here [66].

1. What does the phrase "at liberation" means, and what does it imply for the statement that follows?
2. Who does Winstone suggest was a danger in "the Germans were not the only danger"?

"It may well be that the risk of hiding a Jew was greater, but that is in itself suggestive since the Germans were not the only danger. Rather too many survivors’ accounts echoed the experience of Leon Weliczker at liberation: his rescuer Kalwinski ‘asked us not to come back to visit him or for any other reason; it would be hard for him if it were known that he had hidden Jews’."

François Robere (talk) 18:33, 8 June 2018 (UTC)

I think you are mixing two different statements related to two different ideas. You took the end of one thought relating to the German occupation, Frank’s shooting order of October 1941, etc. and combined it with a reference to the a post-war experience — pls note that the 'rescuer Kalwinski' says "it would be hard for him" but, he does not that he would be in "danger". So, the latter passage clearly relates to a different experience, at a different time, other than during the actual occupation (btw, pls keep in mind that this article is about collaboration during the German occupation, not post-war). --E-960 (talk) 18:52, 8 June 2018 (UTC)

@E-960: In this case the text is stating that "...it would be hard for him..." means "danger." The paragraph begins by describing the risk of hiding jews and continues, "Germans were not the only danger... Kalwinski ‘asked us not to come back to visit him or for any other reason; it would be hard for him if it were known that he had hidden Jews’."

Also, Robere is correct [67] that the text is describing a postwar danger for Poles who had previously hidden Jews. However, I think the text leaves some ambiguity as to whether the danger being described applies equally to the war period. -Darouet (talk) 21:14, 8 June 2018 (UTC)

It's in the same paragraph. I didn't mix anything up. And that paragraph is about the war. Now answer the questions! François Robere (talk) 18:55, 8 June 2018 (UTC)

Hm, now you just said that it "is about the war", but in your Edit Summary you wrote "this is post-war". Clearly, the second part of that passage is not related to collaboration, since the Germans would have been gone. So, if the source is a unclear or ambiguous in its wording, why persist on keeping the questionable text. --E-960 (talk) 19:03, 8 June 2018 (UTC)

Because you messed it up with a reference to "szmalcownik", which is a wartime term and not part of the actual quote. Also, Winstone didn't talk about szmalcowniks specifically.

Clearly, the second part of that passage is not related to collaboration Clearly, you shouldn't make accusations before reading the text. What is that part about? François Robere (talk) 19:17, 8 June 2018 (UTC)

In that case, the entire passage after the long pause should be removed, if it's not related to szmalcowniks and talks about post-war experience. --E-960 (talk) 19:30, 8 June 2018 (UTC)

How you manage to break that one paragraph into so many little parts so as to claim it's devoid of meaning is beyond me. François Robere (talk) 14:09, 9 June 2018 (UTC)

I think this has been hopefully solved now[68]GizzyCatBella (talk) 21:27, 8 June 2018 (UTC)

Who were the collaborators according to Poles?

Who were punished as collboarators during and after the war? Writers and actors, editors and producers. If you find such POV Polish, it still deserves to be mentioned. Double agents were regarded to be collaborators ( pl:Muszkieterzy (organizacja), pl:Wanda Kronenberg).Xx236 (talk) 08:20, 11 June 2018 (UTC)

The underground state didn't allow certain activities. There are plenty of texts about the underground state. I haven't written the poor quality page so I'm not oblidged to correct it. I'm informing you about the bias. If one writes about collaboration in China. he/she should quote Chinese sources and Chinese opinions. Xx236 (talk) 06:35, 12 June 2018 (UTC)

Korbonski, Stefan (1981). The polish underground state: a guide to the underground 1939 - 1945 is quoted as a source about a liberation of a concentration camps in Cechoslovakia. What about the other hundered pages?Xx236 (talk) 06:46, 12 June 2018 (UTC) BTW - the title of the book is incorrect, Polish.

Directorate of Civil Resistance - an unsourced stub. Xx236 (talk) 06:47, 12 June 2018 (UTC)

Anita J. Prazmowska Civil War in Poland 1942–1948 Xx236 (talk) 06:51, 12 June 2018 (UTC)

I haven't read the text by Paul, but he quotes many sources. [69] Xx236 (talk) 07:01, 12 June 2018 (UTC)

https://fbc.pionier.net.pl/details/nnlv2sp Collaborating journalists were punished after the war.Xx236 (talk) 07:04, 12 June 2018 (UTC)

http://bazhum.muzhp.pl/media//files/Pamiec_i_Sprawiedliwosc/Pamiec_i_Sprawiedliwosc-r2009-t8-n1_(14)/Pamiec_i_Sprawiedliwosc-r2009-t8-n1_(14)-s103-132/Pamiec_i_Sprawiedliwosc-r2009-t8-n1_(14)-s103-132.pdf Młynarcyk is quoted once regarding 1944, what about the former years?Xx236 (talk) 07:27, 12 June 2018 (UTC)

https://www.polityka.pl/tygodnikpolityka/historia/1519780,1,aktorzy---kolaboranci-ii-wojny-swiatowej.read Actors Xx236 (talk) 07:32, 12 June 2018 (UTC)

Szarota, Okupowanej Warszawy dzień powszedni, Czytelnik, Warszawa 1973, 1978, 1988, 2010, ​ISBN 83-07-01224-4​; in German: Warschau unter dem Hakenkreuz. Leben und Alltag im besetzten Warschau 1.10.1939 bis 31.7.1944, Schöningh Verlag 1985, ​ISBN 3-506-77472-7​ Xx236 (talk) 07:37, 12 June 2018 (UTC)

I believe that foreighners ignore the role of Polish culture during the war. Both Germans banned the Polish culture, including Chopin, and the government of Poland supported some artists and didn't allow cultural collaboration. Xx236 (talk) 10:12, 12 June 2018 (UTC)

There's more than one kind of "denouncer"

A recurring theme in the discussions on this talk page was the identity of the people who denounced Jews to the Germans. Some editors claimed this was a marginal phenomenon, limited to what's known as "szmalcowniks", or "blackmailers". However, it's well-known that this wasn't the case - denouncers were "ordinary people" coming from all walks of life. Many sources address this, and I hope this handful will resolve this discussion once and for all:

• Take any Polish book on the subject, preferably one with a happy ending, written by or about Jewish survivors who lived through the war assisted by the Poles. One realizes immediately from such a reading that the hiding Jews, as well as the Poles who were helping them, were vulnerable to denunciation. German functionaries, Gestapo agents, or extortionists who blackmailed Jews (the so-called szmalcownik), as the literature on the subject tells us, were few and far between in occupied Poland,and therefore the likelihood of a chance encounter with any of them was negligible for a hiding Jew. Why was it so difficult and dangerous,then, to hide a Jew? Reading Bartoszewski and Lewin’s volume, Righteous among Nations—compiled to show the record of assistance extended to Jews—makes one realize that the precariousness of a Jew’s existence among the Poles was due to a generalized, diffuse hostility toward the Jews. Historical record shows, I think, beyond reasonable doubt that a constant danger for a Jew hiding on the Aryan side, and for the Pole helping him to do so, came from a casual passerby, a house superintendent, a neighbor, a child playing in the courtyard who might, and frequently did, reveal a Jew’s presence outside the ghetto...

  — The politics of retribution in Europe: World War II and its aftermath. István Deák, Jan Tomasz Gross, Tony Judt (eds.). Princeton, N.J: Princeton University Press. 2000. p. 87. ISBN 978-0-691-00954-4.{{cite book}}: CS1 maint: others (link)

• It must be clearly said that Poles did denounce Jews to the Germans during the occupation... Since they did denounce the Jews, we need to examine the practice of denouncing—who was denounced and how?

  — Engelking, Barbara (2012). "Murdering and Denouncing Jews in the Polish Countryside, 1942–1945". The Holocaust in occupied Poland: New Findings and New Interpretations. Bern; New York, N.Y.: Peter Lang. pp. 61–67. ISBN 978-3-653-01247-7. {{cite book}}: |access-date= requires |url= (help); External link in |chapterurl= (help); Unknown parameter |chapterurl= ignored (|chapter-url= suggested) (help)

Engelking gives examples of denouncments:

• ...of Jewish children by the Poles who hid them for money
• ...by landlords who had Jews hiding on their grounds
• ...by acquaintances, neighbours and friends
• ...by passers-by - peasants, villagers, people roaming the forest
• ...of Jewish children by Polish children

She mentions greed was an important motive for denouncement - both for a reward from the Germans, as well as "[The] desire for the Jewish property... [which] was often based only on the belief that Jews were wealthy."

• Both Skibińska (Skibińska, Alina (2012). "Perpetrators' Self-Portrait". The Holocaust in occupied Poland: New Findings and New Interpretations. Bern; New York, N.Y.: Peter Lang. ISBN 978-3-653-01247-7. {{cite book}}: |access-date= requires |url= (help); External link in |chapterurl= (help); Unknown parameter |chapterurl= ignored (|chapter-url= suggested) (help)) and Snyder (Snyder, Timothy (2015). "12". Black earth: the Holocaust as history and warning (First edition ed.). New York: Tim Duggan Books. ISBN 978-1-101-90345-2. {{cite book}}: |edition= has extra text (help)) give a myriad of examples of denunciation, the latter characterizing it as a common phenomenon in the Polish countryside both between Poles and Jews, and Poles and Poles. Skibińska concentrates on the motives and rationals of denouncers, as given in post-war trials; Snyder gives a complex account of behaviors and motives, including both help and denouncement, both in Poland and abroad, reaching some harsh, but enlightening conclusions that I recommend all editors read.

François Robere (talk) 12:07, 12 June 2018 (UTC)

Denouncers existed in many countries Sonderabteilung Lola. If an editor writes only about denouncers in Poland, is it possible that he is biased? Snyder writes about abroad but the editor doesn't inform us which abroad.

There is no general study of the subject in Poland. Why don't you inform which groups are described by Skibińska and Engelking? The terror system in both occupations exterminated good people, cruel ones survived.

The study by both authors has been financed by Polish taxpayers, including me. It seems that some other countries are greedy to study their vices. Who finances study of Jewish denouncers? Hannah Arendt isn't popular in Israel.

Poland existed about 20 years. Many Poles were born and educated in Germany, Austria or Russia, sometimes in two of the three countries. Many good citizens inform the authorities.

Poland is known to have low Social capital. Some reasons were occupations and terror, poverty, slavery. Slavery was imposed by local nobility, but occuptions and terrors were imposed by mentioned three nations. Does your bias help to craete the capital in Poland and meke ethnic Poles pro-Jewish? You are fighting a war against Polish people. You may win the war, but your victory may create more problems than cooperation.

Home Army fought mail denounces [70].

Xx236 (talk) 12:41, 12 June 2018 (UTC)