The lead paragraphs are very populated by sources - 18 in the first one alone. Per [[WP:LEAD]] and [[WP:LEADCITE]] we should not have any references in the leads (or at least, keep it to a minimum). I might try move the citations to sections below if I can. --[[User:Gateshead001|Gateshead001]] ([[User talk:Gateshead001|talk]]) 23:33, 30 May 2018 (UTC)
The lead paragraphs are very populated by sources - 18 in the first one alone. Per [[WP:LEAD]] and [[WP:LEADCITE]] we should not have any references in the leads (or at least, keep it to a minimum). I might try move the citations to sections below if I can. --[[User:Gateshead001|Gateshead001]] ([[User talk:Gateshead001|talk]]) 23:33, 30 May 2018 (UTC)
== Adding additional supporters of the Paramilitaries ==
As sourced on the groups' pages - their support is broader than construed by the infobox.
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{{Infobox military conflict|conflict=The Troubles
|partof=
|image=|caption=The Aftermath of the [[Mountainview Tavern bombing 1975| Mountainview Tavern gun & bomb attack]] which killed 5 & injured 60 in a Belfast pub
|date=1968–1998<ref>[http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/faq/faq2.htm Frequently Asked Questions – The Northern Ireland Conflict], cain.ulst.ac.uk. Retrieved 18 May 2017.</ref><ref>Arthur Aughey. ''The Politics of Northern Ireland: Beyond the Belfast Agreement'', p. 7; {{ISBN|978-0-415-32788-6}}.<!-- publishing info needed --></ref><ref name="Ireland 1999, page 221">"The troubles were over, but the killing continued. Some of the heirs to Ireland's violent traditions refused to give up their inheritance."<br />Jack Holland: ''Hope against History: The Course of Conflict in Northern Ireland.'' Henry Holt & Company, 1999, p. 221; {{ISBN|0-8050-6087-1}}</ref><ref name="Northern Ireland Conflict' page 250">Gordon Gillespie, ''Historical Dictionary of the Northern Ireland Conflict'', p. 250; {{ISBN|978-0-8108-5583-0}}.</ref>
|place = [[Northern Ireland]]<br/><small>Violence occasionally spread to the [[Republic of Ireland]], England, and [[Continental Europe|mainland Europe]] </small>
|result =
*Military stalemate<ref>[[Peter Taylor (journalist)|Peter Taylor]]. ''Behind the mask: The IRA and Sinn Féin'', Chapter 21: ''Stalemate'', pp. 246–61.<!--publishing info, ISBN needed--></ref>
*[[Good Friday Agreement]] (1998)
*[[St Andrews Agreement]] (2006)
*Withdrawal of British forces taking part in [[Operation Banner]]<ref>{{cite web|url=http://www.official-documents.gov.uk/document/hc0607/hc06/0697/0697.pdf|title=Ministry of Defence Annual Report and Accounts 2006–2007 HC 697|format=PDF|accessdate=24 February 2016}}</ref>
*[[Decommissioning in Northern Ireland|Disarmament of paramilitary groups]]
*{{Flagdeco|Libyan Arab Jamahiriya|1977}} [[History of Libya under Muammar Gaddafi#Great Socialist People's Libyan Arab Jamahiriya (1977–2011)|Libyan Arab Jamahiriya]] {{small|([[Provisional IRA arms importation|arms shipments]])}}<br>*[[Winter Hill Gang|South Boston Irish Mob]]<br>*[[NORAID|Irish Northern Aid Committee]]<br>*[[Palestine Liberation Organization]]<br>*Norwegian Criminal Gang<ref>https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/ira/inside/weapons.html</ref><br>*[[George Harrison (Irish republican)|Harrison Network]]<br>Republican Racketeering<br>*[[Embassy of Iran, London|Iranian Embassy]]<ref>Iran paid millions to fund IRA Adrian Levy and Anna Pukas. The Times , 21 Aug 1994</ref><br>*[[File:Fuerzas Armadas Revolucionarias de Colombia (coat of arms).png|24px]] [[Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia|FARC]]<br>*[[File:Logo of Euskadi Ta Askatasuna.png|24px]] [[ETA (separatist group)|Basque Separatists]]
[[File:Flag of South Africa (1928–1994).svg|24px]] [[South Africa]] {{small|(arms shipments)}}<ref>https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/1989/08/28/international-arms-merchants-stock-both-sides-in-n-ireland/6a8e61de-2eee-463e-b416-810936eba8dd/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.b6a38f9519f6</ref><br>Loyalist Prisoners Welfare Association <ref>Cusack & McDonald, p.199</ref><br>Loyalist Drug Dealing<br>Loyalist Racketeering<br>[[Combat 18|British Neo-Nazis]]<br>[[File:British Movement Flag.svg|24px]] [[British Movement]]<br>[[File:National Front flag (Union Jack Variant).svg|24px]] [[National Front (UK)|National Front]]<br>[[British National Party]]
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The contentious topics procedure applies to this article. This article is related to the Troubles, which is a contentious topic. Furthermore, the following rules apply when editing this article:
You may not make more than 1 revert within 24 hours on this article (except in limited circumstances)
Neutrality: All editors on Troubles-related articles are directed to get the advice of neutral parties via means such as outside opinions.
Graphs are unavailable due to technical issues. There is more info on Phabricator and on MediaWiki.org.
Ignoble flag usage in infobox
I believe the flags in the box out are being used incorrectly, and certainly contentiously.
The Union Jack and the Irish Tricolour on the left hand side are fine, as they represent those two countries. However, the repeated use of the tricolour and the use of the flag of Northern Ireland is wrong.
The tricolour is the adopted flag of the country and, although it is often used by both Republicans and Nationalists alike, the ownership 1) does not solely belong to the paramilitary organisations and 2) represents many more people than just paramilitary extremists.
Likewise, the flag of Northern Ireland is the de facto flag of the country and 1) does not solely belong to paramilitary organisations, even though they may use it at times and 2) represents more than just paramilitary extremists.
Better alternatives would perhaps be:
No flags at all for the paramilitaries
A selected flag for each of the main paramilitaries (maybe a 'Starry Plough' and the UVF flag?)
A collection of stacked flags representing various of the main paramilitary organisations
Certainly, the use of the flag of Northern Ireland to represent terrorists is offensive. I assume it may be the same for many people with regard to the tricolour. --75.177.79.101 (talk) 23:25, 15 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I have a question; would you be ok if the tricolor were removed from the Republican side, but the accepted flags of the individual groups & participants remained? Either way, Chancellor Richard English, formerly of Queen's College Belfast, specified in his History of the IRA that Republican groups trace their lineage from the original Dáil Éireann of 1919-1922. Thus, they see the other groups as "misrepresenting" the flag. Nevertheless, I'd like to hear what you think of keeping certain flags in the info box.
Sorry; not immediately relevant to this page.
But several Troubles and related pages have had their flag icons removed. The user who did so sees them as in violation of WP:FLAGCRUFT, though has thus far failed to specify how. Any opinions on this matter?
Simon Levchenko (talk) 21:57, 19 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Editors who do not deign to provide edit summaries (as a matter of their general practice and custom) and ask supercilious questions in lieu do not garner the most patient of responses, particularly when the edit is an unexplained Undo which in itself is extremely disruptive editing behaviour. Hence, I do not think this was an appropriate case to dither in the Talk universe; action in the real world was both appropriate and necessary to support a well-intentioned, well-conceived contribution. But I do support the principle entirely, as a general rule. Thanks. sirlanz15:14, 12 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
That map had been there for a long time and it was changed only recently. And frankly, someone seeking to replace something that had been there for a long time has to turn to the talk page. The map was replaced without consensus. Placing pictures of bombings, etc. perpetrated by one party of the conflict violates the neutrality of this article.Ernio48 (talk) 15:45, 12 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
That bombing doesn't obviously show who did it so I see no neutrality issue there. But exactly why would showing only the damage caused by one side or the other fail neutrality? Do you think there should be a balance or pictures or none at all? Dmcq (talk) 21:08, 12 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Precisely. The perpetrator is not identified. No threat to POV whatsoever. If an editor thinks it would contribute to balance, he/she can put forward an image of something committed by the other side but, frankly, given this one does not provide such identity, little would be achieved. sirlanz23:54, 12 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
It is however not anywhere near specific enough to the Troubles. Bombed houses occur in all sorts of conflicts. Dmcq (talk) 08:48, 13 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
To reiterate, neither of you had the right to edit-war without starting a discussion on the talk page. Now let's discuss. Scolaire (talk) 18:17, 12 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Just reiterating is not adequate. If anything is said on WP it ought to be said with reasoning. If you insist a Talk shop was required in the circumstances, then you must insist with a response to the substantive points made by me, particularly that the so-called "war" began with the editor undoing a contribution with no substantive reason at all and with the absurd suggestion that editors require permission before editing. Those are pertinent circumstances to be taken into account when considering the appropriateness of reversion. If every disruptive, rude and belligerent edit requires a discussion before reversion, time for WP to close up shop - and I mean that genuinely, because it would simple grind to a halt. sirlanz23:49, 12 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Agree. Bold edits are fine. A reversion is fine but it should say why one prefers the old version rather than just that it has been there for a long time. Edit warring is bad. As to the edit I think the bomb picture is better than the map but it isn't all that specific. I think possibly a mural showing a paramilitary would be better. Dmcq (talk) 21:03, 12 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Terrorist incidents map of the United Kingdom 1970-2015 The previous map is not a great infobox image - if you want a map this one (which could be cropped) gives a very telling overview (though it's a pity the date range is too long) as well as showing north & south for those who don't know. The bombing image is low res but better than the plain map. Johnbod (talk) 22:35, 12 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I think it would have to be more specific. That shows terrorism in the UK unrelated to the Troubles and it gives the impression that there was no terrorist activity in the Republic. Never mind some stuff elsewhere. Plus the causes of it all mattered as well as all the killing. That's why I thought a mural would be more informative showing how it was a general conflict and not just terrorist organizations. Dmcq (talk) 23:06, 12 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Couldn't see any in commons that looked like anything but walls. How about something dreary or there's also a map specific to the troubles. . Dmcq (talk) 09:40, 13 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Support Dmcq's map. Snowded's would be a dismal climb down by WP. It's vital that any illustration is not just an outright avoidance of the significance of the period of intense conflict, i.e. violence. That's what made it newsworthy and the source of enormous concern worldwide throughout all those decades. If it were not for all the bombings, it simply would never have been anything like it was on the world stage. So, yes, I support a map such as the one now suggested. If we shy away from depicting the dismal horror of the subject, we utterly betray Wikipedia's commitment to truth. sirlanz10:34, 13 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I think you are trying to make a point here rather than satisfy our obligations as a encyclopaedia. The article more than adequately covers the violence and we are now in the post Good Friday period so something a little more neutral is order. You still haven't self-reverted your latest edit which breaks Arbcom sanctions on Troubles articles by the way. The fact you haven't indicates the point making again -----SnowdedTALK10:39, 13 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
A few observations:
Slagging those who disagree with you, or questioning their motivation, is not conducive to a productive discussion.
Unfortunately, I have had to nominate this image for deletion, as it turns out it was not a free image.
The Troubles were a terrible period in Irish history. Images of a wall containing paintings of happy people, or generic graffiti, does not illustrate them very well. This image of a peace line might work better. On the other hand, it or the watch tower image might look strange to the first time reader. We have to bear in mind that the purpose of the image is to to give an immediate impression of the article topic.
The "Deaths in the Troubles" map is extremely ugly. It's okay where it is, down in the Casualties section, but I wouldn't like to see it at the top. Sorry to be so negative.
At least we have a consensus that the blank map of Ireland should be replaced. Let's keep thinking about the best thing to replace it with.
The lead paragraphs are very populated by sources - 18 in the first one alone. Per WP:LEAD and WP:LEADCITE we should not have any references in the leads (or at least, keep it to a minimum). I might try move the citations to sections below if I can. --Gateshead001 (talk) 23:33, 30 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Adding additional supporters of the Paramilitaries
As sourced on the groups' pages - their support is broader than construed by the infobox.
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^Arthur Aughey. The Politics of Northern Ireland: Beyond the Belfast Agreement, p. 7; ISBN978-0-415-32788-6.
^"The troubles were over, but the killing continued. Some of the heirs to Ireland's violent traditions refused to give up their inheritance." Jack Holland: Hope against History: The Course of Conflict in Northern Ireland. Henry Holt & Company, 1999, p. 221; ISBN0-8050-6087-1
^Gordon Gillespie, Historical Dictionary of the Northern Ireland Conflict, p. 250; ISBN978-0-8108-5583-0.
^Peter Taylor. Behind the mask: The IRA and Sinn Féin, Chapter 21: Stalemate, pp. 246–61.
.svg){kind=small}
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graffiti from the troubles
RUC watch tower
Deaths in the troubles
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Libyan Arab Jamahiriya (arms shipments)
Basque Separatists
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South Africa (arms shipments)[9]
British Movement.svg){kind=small}
National Front