Wikipedia talk:Vital articles

General Level 1 Level 2 Level 3 Level 4 Level 5

Level 5 Subpages

People History and geography Society STEM

Introduction

FA FA GA GA A – Total December 1, 2007 83 45 90 139 25 690 1022 June 1, 2008 88 46 79 140 25 670 999 December 1, 2008 88 50 72 145 24 682 1014 FA A GA B C – Total December 1, 2009 82 7 49 586 146 129 999 January 1, 2011 78 8 60 472 255 113 986 January 1, 2012 76 1 76 454 275 109 991 June 29, 2013 88 3 88 450 289 82 1000 October 13, 2013 90 4 92 446 284 83 999 January 13, 2015 90 2 96 417 333 60 998 December 23, 2016 94 2 107 425 355 17 1000 December 10, 2017 91 3 115 392 376 17 994 January 22, 2019 92 4 122 389 380 12 999 December 20, 2019 88 2 121 390 383 17 1001

The purpose of this discussion page is to select 1000 topics for which Wikipedia should have high-quality articles. All Wikipedia editors are welcome to participate. Individual topics are proposed for addition or removal, followed by discussion and !voting. Since the list is currently full, it is recommended that a nomination of a new topic be accompanied by a proposal to remove a lower-priority topic already on the list.

All proposals must remain open for !voting for a minimum of 15 days, after which:

1. After 15 days it may be closed as PASSED if there are (a) 5 or more supports, AND (b) at least two-thirds are in support.
2. After 30 days it may be closed as FAILED if there are (a) 3 or more opposes, AND (b) it failed to earn two-thirds support.
3. After 30 days it may be closed as NO CONSENSUS if the proposal hasn't received any !votes for +30 days, regardless of tally.
4. After 60 days it may be closed as NO CONSENSUS if the proposal has (a) less than 5 supports, AND (b) less than two-thirds support.

Nominations should be left open beyond the minimum if they have a reasonable chance of passing. An informed discussion with more editor participation produces an improved and more stable final list, so be patient with the process.

• 15 days ago: 04:09, 30 June 2024 (UTC) ()
• 30 days ago: 04:09, 15 June 2024 (UTC)
• 60 days ago: 04:09, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

add Biome

More important than Great Barrier Reef in context of Biosphere

Support

1. As nom. Dawid2009 (talk) 13:57, 6 June 2019 (UTC)
2. Support Basic topic, not only in ecology but geography. More modern term than Life zone. Related to such concepts as Biogeographic realm, Geographical zone and Climate classification. --Thi (talk) 08:18, 7 June 2019 (UTC)
3. Support, good find Fritzmann2002 ^{T, c, s, t} 09:37, 7 June 2019 (UTC)
4. Support per nom GuzzyG (talk) 19:49, 31 July 2019 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Oppose There is no scientific consensus I'm aware of on how best to sort out the hierarchy of intermediate biogeographic units between biogeographic realm at the top and habitat at the bottom. As far as I can tell, the only difference between a biome and an ecosystem, which we already list, is that biomes are bigger and contain multiple ecosystems, just like how states and provinces are usually bigger and contain multiple municipalities. It looks like two of the schemes listed under Biome#Classifications call their component units ecosystems. Cobblet (talk) 19:17, 9 June 2019 (UTC)
2. Oppose As I understand it, biome is the living part of an ecosystem. While ecosystem contains the non-living aspects (like geological formations), biome is used by biologists to classify and describe the interwoven system of living organisms in a habitat. At this level, we only need ecosystem. --Spaced about (talk) 11:17, 1 January 2020 (UTC)

Discuss

It's surprising that biosphere is not Level 5 vital right now. It could even be Level 4 vital. Gizza ^(t)(c) 04:12, 7 June 2019 (UTC)

@DaGizza:I've added biosphere to Wikipedia:Vital_articles/Level/5/Biological_and_health_sciences/Biology.--RekishiEJ (talk) 14:32, 14 June 2019 (UTC)

Swap: remove Great Lakes, add Ganges

Why North America has so plenty articles ahead of California and Central America when SA, Europe, Asia and Africa hev so few related to physical geography? I suggest to swap Great Lakes for Ganges (which is not less vital than Missisipi). Civilisational rivers generally are more important than lakes. There are a lot of civilisational Asian rivers with cultural significance but nowdays Ganges still is promient in cultural context.

Support

1. As nom Dawid2009 (talk) 06:12, 16 June 2019 (UTC)
2. Support addition The list needs more rivers, the only South Asian physical geography article we currently have is Himalayas, and there are only a handful of rivers in the world whose cultural significance can match that of the Ganges. Cobblet (talk) 22:13, 20 June 2019 (UTC)
3. Support addition rivers are indeed underrepresented. Gizza ^(t)(c) 21:56, 24 June 2019 (UTC)
4. Support addition --Spaced about (talk) 11:36, 1 January 2020 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Oppose removal. It's the largest freshwater lake system on the planet, situated between 2 predominately English-speaking countries. It's absolutely vital for the English Wikipedia at this level. Rreagan007 (talk) 17:20, 16 June 2019 (UTC)
2. Oppose removal The removal of Lake Baikal was a mistake; this would be just as much of a mistake. Cobblet (talk) 22:13, 20 June 2019 (UTC)
3. Oppose removal the Great Lakes should be in before California. Gizza ^(t)(c) 21:56, 24 June 2019 (UTC)
4. Oppose removal per all of the above. UnitedStatesian (talk) 20:52, 27 August 2019 (UTC)
5. Oppose removal Per Rreagan007. Suggest close. Jusdafax (talk) 20:38, 6 November 2019 (UTC)
6. Oppose removal --Spaced about (talk) 11:36, 1 January 2020 (UTC)

Discuss

Add Craft and Machine

In my opinion craft and machine are maybe vital at least just as manufacturing and simple machine (wchich are already listed). Craft dye to historical aspects and machine due to fact we list robotics.

Support

1. As nom. Dawid2009 (talk) 16:00, 20 June 2019 (UTC)
2. Support. Simple machine is not enough. I have proposed addition of Handicraft, but less general article Jewellery was added instead. --Thi (talk) 19:59, 20 June 2019 (UTC)
3. Support per nom GuzzyG (talk) 19:49, 31 July 2019 (UTC)
4. Support even if it puts us over quota. The list is lacking business and economics topics (or "work" topics as someone put it somewhere on these pages). Swap in machine for simple machine. Craft should be on a much higher level. I guess it was missed because people think it is represented by trade - which has a double meaning as handicraft and as exchange of goods. -- Spaced about (talk) 11:35, 20 December 2019 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Oppose per my comments in Wikipedia talk:Vital articles/Archive 10#Replace simple machine by machine, and the fact that there remains no consensus to add craft to level 4. Cobblet (talk) 06:10, 30 December 2019 (UTC)

Discuss

Comprasion jewellery to handicraft is like comprasion clothing to sewing. IMO also craft is more vital than handicraft just like economy is more broad and vital than business. We list things like agriculture on level 3 but we also have film ahead of popular culture so craft should be added if we decide keep popular culture. Natural satelite also very is generic article and Mount Everest gets more than 50% more hits than Moon (Yes, Moon is very important article but Natural satelire is utterly redudant to planet, Moon, Earth and Solar System). Dawid2009 (talk) 12:06, 21 June 2019‎ (UTC)

There are many articles that cover similar ground as craft: handicraft, applied arts and decorative arts, for instance. My suggestion would be to add folk art, which again covers essentially the same subject; but as a component of folklore, it also clearly complements the already listed oral tradition and folk music. Cobblet (talk) 05:35, 29 July 2019 (UTC)

@Thi, GuzzyG, and Cobblet: Craft is not level 4 yet and I slso started nomination there. Same with "birth" which was closed as failed on the level 3 Dawid2009 (talk) 17:36, 3 August 2019 (UTC)

Swap: remove Great Barrier Reef, add Coral reef

General article instead of exemplar is possibly better starting point for a reader of an encyclopedia.

Support

1. Support as nom. --Thi (talk) 19:22, 20 July 2019 (UTC)
2. Support I agree that general topics are better than exemplars at this level. UnitedStatesian (talk) 23:09, 29 July 2019 (UTC)
3. Support per nom GuzzyG (talk) 19:49, 31 July 2019 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Weak oppose To me it seems a little strange to list coral reef ahead of rainforest, although it could also be argued that since we list several terrestrial biomes already, listing a marine biome would make sense too. Also, among natural wonders I would value an exceptional hotspot of biodiversity like the Great Barrier Reef more highly than an exceptional stratigraphic column like the Grand Canyon. Cobblet (talk) 02:30, 31 July 2019 (UTC)
2. Oppose addition, biome has been proposed above and is a better choice than coral reef, which as Cobblet says shouldn't be in before rainforest. Neutral on removing GBR since consensus on whether we should have specific sites vs general (like this or the pyramid proposal) is still in a state of flux. Gizza ^(t)(c) 23:06, 31 July 2019 (UTC)

Discuss

Swap: remove Area, add Symmetry

Symmetry is in the meta's list and I think it is more interesting. There was a comment in meta that symmetry is quite general concept in geometry and important beyond mathematics, for example in visual arts.

Support

1. Support as nom. --Thi (talk) 12:35, 24 July 2019 (UTC)
2. Support addition Dawid2009 (talk) 12:53, 24 July 2019 (UTC)
3. Support ADDITION as an important gneral concept. RJFJR (talk) 14:12, 8 August 2019 (UTC)
4. Addition.--RekishiEJ (talk) 14:26, 9 August 2019 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Oppose removal. Area is too important of a geometric concept. Rreagan007 (talk) 13:49, 24 July 2019 (UTC)
2. Oppose I don't see why we would remove area but keep volume. To be fair, length or distance are not listed either, so there is also an inconsistency in the list as it currently stands. Cobblet (talk) 23:33, 26 July 2019 (UTC)
3. Oppose because of area's importance. UnitedStatesian (talk) 02:37, 3 August 2019 (UTC)
4. Oppose Removal basic concept. RJFJR (talk) 14:12, 8 August 2019 (UTC)
5. Removal.--RekishiEJ (talk) 14:26, 9 August 2019 (UTC)
6. Oppose removal – Area is more important than half the geometry concepts on this list. Even if we really do decide that we should be removing area we should remove volume as well, and that thought came to me before I looked at Cobblet's comment. Neutral on Symmetry's addition if length and distance aren't listed. J947 ^(c), at 01:29, 18 August 2019 (UTC)

Discuss

RFC: Merging CoreBios into Vital Articles project?

An RfC on this topic has been started. It can be found here pbp 00:02, 15 September 2019 (UTC)

Add Design

I think that Design is as vital as Architecture. In most general sense, architecture is design discipline, just as fashion design, product design, graphic design and so on. Design is part of everyday life and I see as kind of interface, a point of interaction between human, art and technology. The concept of design is a tool to talk about technology, for example what materials and features to choose as makers or customers. I think that concept is useful in educational sense. There are design critics just as there are architecture critics, art critics, and literature critics. Design#Philosophies_and_studies_of_design.

Applied arts is part of design. "The applied arts are all the arts that apply design and decoration to everyday and essentially practical objects in order to make them aesthetically pleasing." Design is more useful term at this level, because in modern world it deals not only with aesthetics (Ornament (art)) but also functionality. "Applied arts largely overlaps with decorative arts, and the modern making of applied art is usually called design."

Support

1. Support as nom. --Thi (talk) 13:11, 24 September 2019 (UTC)
2. --RekishiEJ (talk) 15:00, 8 October 2019 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Oppose In my opinion, "design" is just a fancier word for problem solving that people who call themselves "designers" use to describe what they do. Moreover, to suggest that "design" differs from applied arts/decorative arts in that it involves both form and function is to suggest that those who practiced the decorative arts before the word "design" came along failed to consider both form and function, which is simply ridiculous. I find concepts such as problem solving or creativity more meaningful. Cobblet (talk) 03:13, 22 October 2019 (UTC)

Discuss

Remove Armour

I think that it is too specific topic at this level, similar to Artillery which was swapped for Military history. In my view there are more important technology articles such as Satellite navigation, which started as military application but is now widely used by civilians.

Support

1. Support as nom. --Thi (talk) 13:11, 24 September 2019 (UTC)
2. Support Too nany weapons in comprasion to food on this list. Dawid2009 (talk) 13:46, 28 September 2019 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Oppose - if this is removed, the military section will become more imbalanced. There are 6 articles on offensive military technology (firearm, bow and arrow, knife, nuclear weapon, explosive and tank) while there are only 2 on defensive military technology (fortification and armour). Gizza ^(t)(c) 11:27, 30 September 2019 (UTC)

Discuss

@Dawid2009: But as Gizza points out, armour is not a weapon. If anything it is a type of clothing (although it also includes things that are not clothing), and I don't think clothing is overrepresented. Cobblet (talk) 04:28, 31 October 2019 (UTC) @Cobblet: For my it seems be about the sme vitalness level what sword which we already removed. Dawid2009 (talk) 23:20, 8 December 2019 (UTC)

Merged article

Just a heads up that Animated cartoon has been merged into History of animation. Both are level 5 but I guess this frees up a slot? PC78 (talk) 04:13, 29 September 2019 (UTC)

WikiProject listings

FYI, JL-Bot can now be used to create listings of vital articles by WikiProject or task force. For an example, see Wikipedia:WikiProject Film/Vital articles. PC78 (talk) 00:20, 7 October 2019 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Add Exploration

Dawid2009 has proposed to add this at level 2, where it failed but got a bit of traction, so I think it deserves some further consideration here. The previous nomination at this level got sidetracked by a mostly unrelated swap, so there wasn't consensus either for or against it. The basic case for it is that we already list 8 people here under the explorers category, plus we list a subfield of exploration, Space exploration, and related topics like Scramble for Africa. Sdkb (talk) 05:25, 30 October 2019 (UTC)

Support

1. Weak Support as nom. I'm mostly listing this to continue a discussion on it I think should be had, rather than since I feel it's a particularly glaring absence, but I do think the case for it is reasonably good. Sdkb (talk) 05:25, 30 October 2019 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Oppose Too much overlap with other articles. --Thi (talk) 10:49, 31 October 2019 (UTC)
2. Weak Oppose I've got back and forth on this, but in the end, I think our coverage of the history of exploration is good enough that adding this overview article doesn't significantly improve the list. Cobblet (talk) 05:18, 2 November 2019 (UTC)

Discuss

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Add Savanna and Habitat

These articles are listed on some other vital article list (for eample Italian wiki has Savanna). It is good choice when we have so plenty countries.

Support

1. Another good alternatives related to animals are: pet (not less vital than cat or coe if we have meat and milk) and animal behaviour.Dawid2009 (talk) 22:26, 30 October 2019 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Oppose No rationale for either proposal. Why savannas over any other type of ecosystem? Cobblet (talk) 03:30, 31 October 2019 (UTC)

Discuss

I am also not wholly convinced we have too few countries. The biggest missed contry on this list by either of surface and population is Algeria. This country get worse Wikipedia's own statistics than Vatican City (although interesing fact is wthat we removed technical article Pope years ago). Moreover we also removed aticles like Baha'i Faith years ago for missed countries like Veitnam. Nowdays proposal for removing Baha'i Faith (currently not listed) probably would not be passed if take into fact that this religion historically has larger population than Dubai/New Zealand/Singapore etc. Dawid2009 (talk) 22:29, 30 October 2019 (UTC)

I don't understand what you're trying to say here. Cobblet (talk) 03:30, 31 October 2019 (UTC)

I try to suggest that physical eography (outside North America) is generally littly underrepresented and that maybe covering that area would be better choice than adding more countries as you pointed here. In the past also some religons topics have been removed for countries like Veitnam. Now we list more countries and cities, such as even small and young populated like Dubai or New Zealand have been nominated to inclusion. Dawid2009 (talk) 23:20, 8 December 2019 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Swap: remove Fyodor Dostoyevsky, add Sima Qian

Number of the writers in general is way too big when we list only 13 languages, one specific philosophy, history of literature ahead of: Arabic numeral, Decimal and Nonverbal communication etc.. We just have no room for two Russian writers of romanticism.

Qian is considered as "Chinese Herodotus" ([1], [2]). His constributions/reviews are associated with Chinese classics. We do not list any Chinese classics when we list other religous texts so IMO adding Sima Qian (when we also list Herodotus) makes this list better and more diversited. Thoughts?

Support

1. Dawid2009 (talk) 22:26, 30 October 2019 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Oppose Chinese literature is covered by Li Bai; the only major country missing in the literature section is India, in which i would support a swap with Dostoevsky for Rabindranath Tagore. Qian should be added, but Tagore comes first because there's no representation of Indian culture listed while Chinese culture has one atleast. Either way Dostoevsky has to go as Alexander Pushkin is more important to Russian literature if we absolutely need to list two Russian writers. GuzzyG (talk) 23:11, 3 November 2019 (UTC)
2. Oppose There were doubts about vitality of Herodotos at this level. Dostoyevsky can be removed with other similar topics, but there are maybe less influential names, which can go first. --Thi (talk) 10:46, 6 November 2019 (UTC)

Discuss

We also list History of literature and English literature on the level 3 when we overrepresent 6 English writers (if we count Mary Wollstonecraft who is listed among philosophers on the level 3 and as writer on the level 4). Most of listed English writers are from last two centuries and they are not mentioned in Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Biography/Core biographies#Western literature. Thoughts? Dawid2009 (talk) 22:29, 30 October 2019 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Add Chinese philosophy and Indian philosophy

Western philosophy is represented by Greek philosophy and we have also Western esotericism. In that case I do not see how Chinese philisophy and Indian philosophy can not be vital on this level (and I also remind that we even had nominations for other less important cultural things like Greek mythology or Ganges). Indian philosophy it is wide topic which cover e g Buddism and Hinduism etc. meanwhile Chinese philosophy cover Confutianism (Confucian civilization) and Taoism etc. (in the archives on the level 4 we can found relevant discussions about that topics). I belive we need these two wide topics if we can quite overlap /Socrates/Plato or Luther/Reformation etc. While I supprort tailoring towards to English-speaking world on this level I also do not understand why we list 6 English writers ahead of influential non indoeuropean languages or Eastern philosophies.

Support

1. Dawid2009 (talk) 22:26, 30 October 2019 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Oppose: both are definitely important and are rightly included at level 4, but I think that Eastern philosophy is sufficient at this level for the English-language Wikipedia. Orser67 (talk) 21:50, 2 December 2019 (UTC)
2. Oppose Eastern philosophy covers these at this level. --Thi (talk) 14:33, 3 December 2019 (UTC)

Discuss

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Swap: remove Thomas Aquinas, add Theology

Freud had not swapped for psychiatry in Thi's proposal but swapping Thomas Aquinas for theology makes much sense. I take issue to listing all three: Thomas Aquinas, Paul The Apostle and Martin Luther+Reformation if we do not list for example notable Islamic philosophers (Al-Ghazali and Averroes were suggested in the archives), Mary who would represent women and except christianity has some significence in Islam or Ashoka to represent East Culture.

Theology is one of the 56 the mst vital religus topics because of theology is vital for religion just as scientific method is vital for science. I would pick it ahead of something like Literary review because of theology revolve around spirituality (which IMO should be listed on the level 2) and it is so popular topic that even proved int erdiscipline like neurotheology.

Support

1. Dawid2009 (talk) 22:26, 30 October 2019 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Oppose No list that ever proclaims to list vital biographies, atleast anything higher than 15-25 biographies can exist without Aquinas. He's that important. When you mix the two most long lasting historically ways to be important (religion/philosophy) and are the biggest name in that mix, you're not being removed on a list with 130 people and when people like Walt Disney are listed. to suggest random popes are more important than top five/canonical artists and yet to suggest to remove Aquinas seems odd at best. No opinion on theology. GuzzyG (talk) 22:58, 3 November 2019 (UTC)

Discuss

Thelogoy is not same thing what religious studies or religious education. These two certainly are not among 56 the most vital religous topics but definietly should be listed level 4 if we can list (IMO totally wrong anyway) sexual education on the lvel 4. Dawid2009 (talk) 14:45, 2 November 2019 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Add Decorative art

Tatoo and Mask maybe could be covered by Folk art but Decorative art should not be missed when we list jewellery. Not less vital than any missed toic related to architecture.

Support

1. Dawid2009 (talk) 22:26, 30 October 2019 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Oppose In my opinion Decorative arts is not the most general article. --Thi (talk) 11:01, 31 October 2019 (UTC)

Discuss

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Swap: remove Elvis Presley, add Michael Jackson

We can have two rock representatives on this list. Religious figures unarguably are more underrepresented than artist on this list based on my reasons below, apparently cogent analogies in section: "remove Richard Wagner, add Folk art, Folk religion", especially at discussion. Listing of Elvis is unjustifited on this list when we have Beatles (or that we decide to remove Beatles but we would lose Bands' representative). Jackson at least would be picked for extremaly diversity reasons as no overlap, just like we list Frida Kahlo (woman paiter) ahead of Raphael. While resley always will be known as one of first greater pop stars, Michael Jackson regardless diversity at least is also less country specific and will be known as first star whose death had sociological influence ifor History of Internet. TLTR: It is no way to we list both (or that we decide to remove The Beatles): Elvis and Jackson, we logically need to pick only one of them. They are arguably much less vital than any random important pope and we even do not list Krishna or Mary...

Support

1. Support Religious figures are more underrepresented on this list. The 1000 Years, 1000 People ranks Chaplin 795-th ( and BTW 794-th is just puted random more important Pope), meanwhile hindustic religious figure like Ramanuja (less notable than Krishna for FA) is listed on the 187th position. I know that this type lists have some issues and as this ranking go longer as is more strangly diversited but Administrator who is especially responsible for featured articles (ping @Ealdgyth:) in this statement (please see it) gave important opinion about our project and stated there - Time Magazine's various "Man/Woman/Person/Topic of the Year" ... while not perfect, it will give you some idea of what was considered important. (…) And I don't see that anyone in the VA project is really trying to bring any sort of sources to their discussions. Of the year/of the century – while not perfect measure, we at least can find something in these sources, and here we can find the structure which clearly shows that various religious figures relatively are highly stated, higher than pop/rock musicians. Religious figures in various fields/nations (real or fictional) are always quite important, at least critically and impact of religious is not subjective in contrast to some other fields (a ka overrated astronauts/models/sportpeople are more famous than underrated for laymans (regardless non-laymans)), they can be measured for example by population of their beliefs/followers. Musician deserve more than superficial representation but IMO better is have diversited list for musicians from 20th century (what do ou think about one jazz, one rock and one pop?) than list two rock representativies from short 60’s-70’s time peirod. Impact of Rock/Pop people generallt revolve around celebrity and sociological impact meanwhile impact of classical is relevant to musical education, musicology. Dawid2009 (talk) 22:26, 30 October 2019 (UTC)
2. Support Totally agree. The FAQ about vital articles says that "Individuals within the People section represent the pinnacles of their field" and Elvis Presley doesn't represent the Rock music pinnacle at all. Michael Jackson really represents the Pop music pinnacle (and development). Swapping Michael Jackson with Elvis we'll get one Jazz, one Rock and one Pop representative of 20th century music. About Michael Jackson... his huge influence in the development of music videos, a legacy in Dance that is globally known and timeless (e.g. The Moonwalk).. and a death that is already part of History (with dance tributes in practically all the main cities of the World or a funeral with a billionaire audience). I think Michael Jackson definitely deserves to be Level 3, and yes, remove Elvis Presley (since there are many other artists that are also more important and even vital than Presley).Salvabl (talk) 20:54, 6 November 2019 (UTC)
3. Support per nom Awvazquez (talk) 18:28, 15 December 2019 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Oppose The only person Elvis should be swapped with is Chuck Berry, a impressionist can be more famous and break more records and be awarded more than Monet but they can never be more important or more influential than him, simply for the fact that there's a order of precedence based on time and Monet started it. Presley was the first big pop star, without him there's no Jackson. "sociological influence for History of Internet" means we list Jennifer Lopez on the level 4 list because her Green Versace dress influenced the creation of Google Images; or even better if involvement in the history of the internet makes Jackson level 3 vital, let's add Tim Berners-Lee. "they are arguably much less vital than any random important pope" this is false, any of the mega important people of the big five arts (literature, painting, sculpture, music and film) will always be more important to history and last longer than any random pope, unless you think; Shakespeare, Dante, Da Vinci, Van Gogh, Picasso, Michelangelo, Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, Louis Armstrong, Presley, The Beatles, even Jackson himself, Chaplin, Hitchcock, Kurosawa and yes Marilyn Monroe too; who are all the top tier of their artforms (the latter only seem out of place to the former due to it being hard to place contemporary ish figures on a level of older ones) as less important than the likes of Pope Francis, Pope Benedict XV, Pope Pius VIII, Pope Alexander VIII and Pope Clement XI; on which we could go on forever. The only two popes i'd vote for on this level are Pope Urban II for initiating the Crusades or Pope John Paul II but only on a loop hole where his five years of the 21st century count him as this centuries or this millenniums most important religious figure. The mega important people in religion are the founders or people like Martin Luther. Teresa of Ávila and Maimonides are the only missing figures and more for what they represent than their influence. Listing a pope instead of founders is like listing a vice president or prime minister instead of the head of state. Krishna overlaps and i'm sure in other religions they would have equivalents and Mary, mother of Jesus overlaps with Jesus, what is her influence on history other than giving birth? If Cleopatra is denied because she had no influence and was just famous, Mary goes under the same measure, would you list Aminah? It would have been logically possible to list Jackson at the start of last year, 3 modern musicians would've been ok, if Chopin, Dali, Hitchcock, Kurosawa and Poe weren't removed. Also arguably Bob Dylan is more important to 20th century music than Jackson. GuzzyG (talk) 22:26, 3 November 2019 (UTC)
2. Oppose Not really needed at this level, Louis Armstrong and The Beatles are famous popular musicians. --Thi (talk) 17:29, 16 November 2019 (UTC)
3. Oppose Elvis had a unique influence on pop and rock because he incorporated elements of black music into his style. A number of recordings of Black spiritual gospels sung by Elvis exist, even though they are less well known. The style of black singing he listened to as a child in a black church in the American South influenced all of his best selling songs heavily. He was an innovator in that sense and that's what makes him important to the industry and influential to everybody who came after him. Michael cannot beat that just by being black. Other than that it's certainly a tough call to make: sacrifice a few scientist biographies to put Michael on the list, perhaps? -- Spaced about (talk) 11:07, 20 December 2019 (UTC)

Discuss

[3] - According to this link (updated one hour ago, it is not WP:Reliable source but just links from this channel were recently discussed on User talk:Jimbo Wales/Archive 238#Most Popular Websites 1996 - 2019) Michael Jackson dominated part of 80's and 90's menwhile Presley dominated 1973-1975. I do not know why it is not right with List of best-selling music artists but I assume it is methotology by monthly/in quartars, not "time after time, who is best selling of all time" (sorry for my odd English). Dawid2009 (talk) 14:21, 2 November 2019 (UTC)

It's no surprise that pop music is popular. You may find this list interesting. Brief comments on methodology here. Cobblet (talk) 17:07, 2 November 2019 (UTC)

I have noted that you in the archivs suggested rigoristic limit for biographies in that project [4]) and you also were suggesting that covering impact of Michael Jackson maybe could be interesing [([5] [6] for this list for many perspectves of diversity. Problem with Michael Jackson is fact that he is still recent but nowi it is 10 years after his death and among entertaiment area we list „video games” which are recent comparable to Jackson and looks quite weak among other activities. Anyway how would be your opinion now, did you changegen your mind since then? Dawid2009 (talk) 21:50, 13 November 2019 (UTC)

Linking a video where Presley's prime is over is unfair, the fact that he still dominated two years nearly 20 years after his prime speaks more in his favor than not. GuzzyG (talk) 22:26, 3 November 2019 (UTC)

This is a good video to see the record sales: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a3w8I8boc_I In some moments the record sales by Michael Jackson are twice that of the second artist on the list, and remains in first position for several years.. It is certainly something unique, that makes him the greatest Pop star ever. Salvabl (talk) 21:14, 6 November 2019 (UTC)

That's the same exact video linked above and does not include Elvis at his peak, Elvis topping two years in that video is like if Jackson charted in the 2000s, Elton John would be on the level 4 list if sales mattered alone; also Eminem reigned for seven years and doubled second place in that video and yet he's not in the level 4 list. if you can convince me that Michael made a bigger contribution to 20th century music than Bob Dylan, that pop deserves representation over folk, that Jackson is more important to music than Frédéric Chopin or Giovanni Pierluigi da Palestrina, that Fela Kuti or Bob Marley are not better additions than Jackson for geographic diversity, that Jackson would be a better pick than Édith Piaf which would represent non-english speaking music and represent women, or even that instrumentalists like Jimi Hendrix and Ravi Shankar; one of whom is from one of the biggest countries in the world and a culture not represented here unlike the US; are not better representations than yet another singer. If you can refute all of those arguments/additions with something other than "sales", than Jackson can be considered. "best selling/sales" means J. K. Rowling, Samuel L. Jackson, Russo brothers, Eagles (band) and Markus Persson get listed on the level 4 list and most "famous" means Marilyn Monroe and Cleopatra get listed on the level 3 list, both of which i'd support over Jackson as women are needed on this list more than men. 20th century music is so full of people, it's best to wait another 50 years for the dust to get settled. Elvis is on as the clear FIRST of a phenomenon, he's the first pop/rock star (Just like Chaplin in film). In 50 years we can go over this again and see who stands tall and add another two or so 20th century music figures. GuzzyG (talk) 23:10, 8 November 2019 (UTC)

But the current proposal is a swap, not straight addition so Salvabl did not suggested to keep two rock representatives from 60’s-70’s (or three along with Bob Dylan) or keeping non-English language pop representatives on the list. He only reffered to „How Michael Jackson has top of reprsentative field in pop”, and for the record.. he said „in some fragments” so in this video Michael Jackson „several Times” was on the pick and de facto for most of 80’s and 90’s, meawhile Eminem was relatively short moment on the top (I only clarify Salvabl's context but everything what I think about this video I said before, and I also even gave link to article on Wikipedia about selling - personally I do not have any comment about measure by (purly) sales and I did the nomination more due to diversity reasons). Dawid2009 (talk) 21:50, 13 November 2019 (UTC)

I think it is necessary to include non-English speaking music artists like Édith Piaf, and I agree with GuzzyG that other artists can provide greater geographical diversity to the list. But if we focus on this swap (remove Elvis Presley, add Michael Jackson), I think it is something appropriate that improves the list. Maybe in the future we will be voting another swap in which Michael Jackson is removed and another artist added, but in this case I support removing Elvis now and adding Michael (because I think this improves the list). Awvazquez (talk) 18:28, 15 December 2019 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Swap: remove Richard Wagner, add Folk art, add Folk religion

Folk religion is wide topic and important part of anthropology. This topic revolve around all religions around the world, including ethnics, neonatives and global (for eample folk catholicism). Folklore is level 2 article and without it any religon would not have any cultural impact on the world. This topic would also cover important missed topics included in Portal:Religon just as ethnic religions from Africa. Folk religions authentically are the most practiced religions through history, now also practiced by atheists and agnostics and this topic would better cover Chinese folk religion which probably should NOT be ignored ([7], [8]). I am also opened about addition of folk art which was discussed earlier in section about craft and on the level 4. Folk religion two recently two had relative chances to be passed into level 3.

Richard Wagner is a very vital classical composer but if also take into fact that we also already list 2-3 other German composers and two rock figurees, current structure of the list and diversity really does not make any sense, at all. I belive early romanticism should be only represented by Beethoven when we list history of music based on my rationale in discussion.

Support

1. Dawid2009 (talk) 22:26, 30 October 2019 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Oppose no to more niche overlapping articles like folk art/folk religion. GuzzyG (talk) 23:16, 8 November 2019 (UTC)
2. Oppose per above. --Thi (talk) 17:26, 16 November 2019 (UTC)

Discuss

Musicians do not overweight religious figures or people like Sima Qian who reviewed Chinese classics. For example Jean-Paul Sartre is a notable French XXth entury philoopher overweight classical musicians and visual artists on French Wiki by number of pagewatchers, it goes in that way: Sartre>>Chopin>Monet>Durkhelm>Ravael>Debussy (Also, Émile Durkheim who is considered as important piooner „anthropology of religion” gets similar statistics on FRwiki despite fact France according to this review apparently seems be country where religion is not more vital than i others European countries). Monet influence in France was comparable to Chopin which got removed and John Paul II also is more important than Curie/Chopin (there are Columbus day and Pope John Paul II Day but there are not for example "Curie day") in Poland. Dawid2009 (talk) 14:46, 2 November 2019 (UTC) Dawid2009 (talk) 14:46, 2 November 2019 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Swap: remove Claude Monet, add Imhotep, Mary of Nazareth

Religious figures are underrepresente meanwhile artists are still overrepresented on this list. I explained it already in the setion just above: "remove Richard Wagner, add Folk art, Folk religion", especially at discussion. On that basics I think Monet easy can go. Monet also had not better impact in France than Chopin who.consensually got removed months ago. Category:Claude Monet is more poor than Category:Frédéric Chopin.

Imhotep gets the same GoogleNagrams what Monet despite fact he is an acient figure. He is vital not only as remarkable polymath and as medical figure but also as the first notable scientific. He wsa conisedered as deity for centuries (if not formilleniums). On that basic I belive can list him even if we have Hippocrates, Aviencca, History of medicine and we removed some examples of individual buildings.

Listing Remofrmation AND Luther apparently is systemis bias (IMO) but listing Frida Kahlo or Marie Curie ahead of Our Lady of Mexico, The Queen of Poland, The Our Lady of China etc.. (this list would be authentically endless..) is incompetent and typical example of imbroglio at diversity in that project. It is impossible to find how Her ultimate archetypical influence is not perfectly rampant nearly very worldwide. Missing Krishna (after removing important religious text which was added to cover just Krishna) also is not understandable because of we have here odd and unculmitative methotology where bios like Adi Shankara, Martin Luther, Thomas Aquinas etc. are more picked and favourised. Mary is definietly the one religious woman figure to have on this list (even if ALL women cover marginal fraction in Abrahamic Religion in religious texts) and I did not found how Mary is less vital than Jesus in Islam . She deserves priority for featured article. Her category has 64 lenguage versions and its views in various languages overweigh Category:Reformation and get comparable results to Category:Muhammad, if we properly take into fact fact Mary has many common names and redirects in various languages (which why, for example, Category:Mary, mother of Jesus is less viewed on the English Wikipedia than category about Mary on the Japanese Wikipedia ([9]/[[10]).

Support

1. Strong Support for all changes Dawid2009 (talk) 22:26, 30 October 2019 (UTC)
2. Strong support for adding Mary, Support for removing Monet. Mary constitutes a central figure in multiple branches of Christianity, is venerated as a saint and quasi-divine being, and would be the first and only female figure in the religion section. Religion, spirituality, and mythology are broadly two-gendered activities and the absence of any female figure is a bit mind-boggling. With respect to painting, we have seven painters (some with other skills) in the artistic figures section, six of them European, including both an impressionist and a post-impressionist (Van Gogh) from the 19th century. I think we can spare one of them.--Carwil (talk) 19:28, 6 November 2019 (UTC)
3. Strong support for adding Mary, weak support for Imhotep, no opinion on removal of CM. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 04:04, 20 December 2019 (UTC)
4. Support addition of Mary, Swap Monet for Impressionism and Add Ancient egyptian religion instead of Imhotep. To stay neutral on quota, remove chemical scientist Antoine Lavoisier, because at this level his work is represented by the Periodic table of elements for which he laid the groundwork. -- Spaced about (talk) 09:58, 20 December 2019 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Oppose Monet is too influential to a major branch of human activity throughout history (painting). Imhotep should be added as a representative of Ancient Egyptian culture. Marys titles are religious and don't have any hard impact on the world (unless you're saying she's more influential to China than Xi Jinping) and if she is vital for giving birth than Adam and Eve would be listed aswell. Marie Curie will forever be more important to history than Mary; she did more for history, too. GuzzyG (talk) 23:22, 3 November 2019 (UTC)
2. Oppose Per above. If we list modern art topics, Monet or Impressionism are too vital topics to miss. --Thi (talk) 11:11, 6 November 2019 (UTC)
3. Oppose removal per GuzzyG. Sdkb (talk) 07:46, 9 November 2019 (UTC)
4. Oppose removal - He’s vital at Level 3, as I see it. Neutral on the proposed additions. Jusdafax (talk) 08:20, 9 November 2019 (UTC)

Discuss

• Mary of Nazareth redirects to Mary, Mother of Jesus. Also, I find it strange that Mary the mother of Jesus is nominated for inclusion at this level at the same time Reformation is nominated for removal. Surely Mary is as redundant to Jesus as the Reformation is to Luther? pbp 19:08, 2 November 2019 (UTC)

I intentionally „suggested”/nominated Luther ahead of Reformation (and nominated „history of religion” for some ballance) given fact participants of the project are OK with number of „125?” people on this list meanwhile we do not list something like Roman Empire on the level 3 or Digital revolution on the level 4. Saying that Mary is redundant to another central figure in Christianity (regardless of gender) is undue at least as long as we stand "125+ biographies for the diversity reasons" in that project, in a way we include bios which arguably are much less vital than "rather average than top religious figures", for examples Saint Peter or John Paul II [11] – Here is also quote from last nomination removal of the Abraham „The significance of religious figures is derived from their followers” considering that all, I think Mary is strong candidate when we have so many man religious figures. You will never find other "woman biography" where "category from name of biography" get about the same number of language versions what combinetly go: Category:Abraham+Category:Krishna+Category:Great Wall of China and you will not find any "ancient biography" which has dedicated portals on the Wikipedias: d:Q20820647). Beyond that, FWIHW: article (C-class) on Mary is not similar to article on Jesus, they were never considered as two the same people just as Plato/Socrates (whose we list) and article on Protestantism include long dedicated subsection to "Reformation", meanwhile article on Jesus does not include dedicated section for Mary (and you probably could find more serious overlaps than Protestantism vs Reformation on this list, in non-religious articles). Dawid2009 (talk) 05:35, 9 November 2019 (UTC)

I also find interesing thing that articles like Trinity or Allah, generally in all language versions do not get the same google views in forgein languaes what specifically focussed articles like Krishna and Mary, see e g:[12]/[13]. Given discussion in the archives about Amazon Rainforest beetwen Cobblet and Rreagan007 (see [14]), my comment just above and and comprasions to other articles (for example History of literature vs literature or Protestantism vs Reformation), Mary does not any overlap with Jesus. I would like also to see opinion someone who till often write fetured articles where is overlap here and why? Dawid2009 (talk) 22:56, 20 November 2019 (UTC)

Add History of religion

History of religion revolve around calendar or histography. It naturally fits on this level especially because of it is fr more vital than History of Middle East and we had in the past articles related to history of religion on the list, for example a East West Schism.

Support

1. Dawid2009 (talk) 22:26, 30 October 2019 (UTC)
2. Support per nom Salvabl (talk) 21:24, 6 November 2019 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Oppose Spaced about (talk) 09:35, 20 December 2019 (UTC)
2. Oppose It is mainly an extension for the main article (Religion). Almost too general topic for this level. --Thi (talk) 09:47, 20 December 2019 (UTC)

Discuss

Social sciences are subjects which are relatively easier to be replaced with articles "hitory of" than Natural sciences. We did not picked articles like History of physics or History of Biology ahead of scientifists like Heisenberg etc. because of really these types of articles do not give much more than something like history of science or History of education. Calling things like Big Bang as "recent thing" is confused meanwhile specific articles associated with social science/history are much easier to be covered in "history of" article. That is maybe why we swapped some filmmakers for "history of" but people like Aristotle, Pesteur, Galileo, Freud pritty fit as representation "history of biology", "history of physics" etc.. Dawid2009 (talk) 14:46, 2 November 2019 (UTC)

I am surprised that article Social science is listed on the level 3 (while ago it was level 2), meanwhile Natural science even is not listed on the level 4. We lately added natural philosophy to the level 4 and we do not have article history of philosophy on the English Wikipedia. Dawid2009 (talk) 14:46, 2 November 2019 (UTC)

Swap: remove Rumi, add Zoroaster

Either of Rumi and Zoroaster are famous names for people who are interested in philosophy but Zoroaster IMO is more needed as we list only 9 religious figures and 20 writers. Generally I would rather pick Zoroaster ahead of Zorroastrianism. Especially due to fact that Zoroaster is often considered as one of the of the greatest religous leader (or the greatest) of all time meanwhile Zorroastrianism is often considered as historically important and influential but certainly not the most important religion.

Zorroastrianism thank to historiacl relationship with many other cultures often revolve around other important religions and even various native faiths (New religious movements). We can find really plenty what links here (for example Zorroatriansim is mentioned in the article Asian feminist theology) what show why actually. this relgion is important. Also, fact that it is often considered as the first monotheist religons stete this belief as something important for historians from perspective of sociocultural evolution. Beyond that wwn Wikipedia's statistic of this religion are incredible. Zoroastrianism is a page with +1300 paewatchers on English Wikipedia what can overweight Christmas (1156, Easter (1216) and even soccer soccer (1117 - trully global sport !). Zoroaster as biography gets also more pagewatchers than Yuri Gagarin (513 vs 402

Article about Zorroaster cover influence of Zorroaster/Zorroastrianism for scholars associated with Philosophy of history. Meanwhile detals included and described in article Zorroastrianism seems be more focussed on acedemic topics associated with religion/mythology/demonology etc. What do You think?

Support

1. Support As nom. But if we compare Zoroaster to Zorroastrianism we could also sompare Sufism to Rumi Dawid2009 (talk) 22:26, 30 October 2019 (UTC)
2. Weak support I tend to agree that as a founder of a once major religion (albeit now in decline) he should be ranked above Rumi. I disagree with User:Dawid2009: Rumi is not to Sufism as Zoroaster is to Zoroastrianism. But it may come down to a question of whether the criterion is current importance or historical importance, as I would guess that Rumi is more significant for more people now alive. Eteb3 (talk) 08:27, 1 November 2019 (UTC)
3. Weak support removal because other poets as Abu Nuwas are listed. --Thi (talk) 11:19, 6 November 2019 (UTC)
4. Support addition; either Zoroaster or Zoroastrianism belongs in level 3 because it was an historically important religion Orser67 (talk) 17:22, 16 November 2019 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Oppose Persian literature is too important to not cover, we cover heaps of religious founders that actually have current impact on the world; so Persian literature comes first. This just makes the list more bias and less diverse in favor of English writers. Dickens, Dostoevsky and Hemingway are the only writers that should ever be removed, the rest should be set in stone. GuzzyG (talk) 23:31, 3 November 2019 (UTC)
2. Oppose addition In my view Zoroastrianism is in the same level as many other topics, which should also be added. --Thi (talk) 11:19, 6 November 2019 (UTC)

Discuss

Add Social media

Vital aspect of communication in the contemporary world, with billions of users dedicating large amounts of attention to it. Has influenced politics, culture, and society worldwide. Would be a good complement to mass media, and seems about as important as broadcasting, telecommunication, etc., all of which are listed. Sdkb (talk) 20:05, 6 November 2019 (UTC)

Support

1. Support as nom. Sdkb (talk)
2. Support Influential in modern world, recently article digital media use and mental health just has been featured. I would also compare it with journalism, because of telecommunication is wide topic and more technical than sociological. Digital revolution is an article which we probably need on the level 4 in history section. Dawid2009 (talk) 22:43, 13 November 2019 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Oppose Social media is an internet-based tool, often used to share journalism and news. I think that these basic articles about communication are enough at the moment. --Thi (talk) 17:43, 21 November 2019 (UTC)

Discuss

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Gender breakdown of people

I was curious about the gender breakdown of the people we list at this level, so I did a quick count. We currently list 11 women and 118 men, meaning the list is about 8.5% women, well less than the ~18% of biography articles on Wikipedia about women total. I'd be interested to know what the ratio is at levels 4 and 5, but that'd be a lot to count.

I'm not arguing that we ought to actively try to add more women — it seems plausible that the oppression of women throughout history could well have made them less than a tenth as likely to become notable at the VA3 level — but given that this project generally tries to identify articles of greatest importance rather than just greatest popularity, the breakdown is one stat I think we ought to have in mind. Sdkb (talk) 22:22, 16 November 2019 (UTC)

I have previously commented on this with respect to level 3 here and here, and with respect to level 4 at least here. Cobblet (talk) 22:32, 16 November 2019 (UTC)

I'm glad to see it's been discussed! Interesting that Jane Jacobs came up for level 4, given that I just nominated her for it. Did any of the other proposals from that discussion move forward in a more formal way? People like Julia Child might have a decent case. Sdkb (talk) 08:40, 17 November 2019 (UTC)

The lack of women like Cleopatra, Queen Victoria and Marilyn Monroe on this list is a shock, but they're generally regarded as just famous names with no actual influence. I now disagree, obviously. Sarah Bernhardt could be listed as the prototype of the modern celebrity and Coco Chanel could be on as our one fashion person and one designer, but celebrity is not really taken seriously and fashion is generally not represented well on these lists. Isadora Duncan and Anna Pavlova could represent dance; but people will say dance is not as important in culture. Leni Riefenstahl, Amelia Earhart, Teresa of Ávila, Simone de Beauvoir and Édith Piaf could represent areas on here we don't cover women in. We could list Emmeline Pankhurst. The problem is women don't get generally regarded as prominent figures in sources and throughout history and their fields of interest diminished, like Estée Lauder was a struggle to get on the level 4 list, but she's just as dominant as any other mega titan she's just not reported on the same; same with Florence Griffith Joyner, Suzanne Lenglen or Babe Didrikson Zaharias. Florence Nightingale could be a very good choice. Also Harriet Tubman could be a choice for Activism; but others will say she overlaps with Lincoln.

Either way i would support getting our numbers of women to the level of biographies on the site, the trouble is getting consensus. The level 4 list i'm unsure of, i got Lauder listed and am now trying to get Clara Schumann, Lotte Reiniger, Diana, Princess of Wales and Amrita Sher-Gil listed; and would support Julia Child. The level 5 list, which i've edited alot of i have actively been trying to include women in every section; even in fields like baseball where women are not that prominent (due to softball, which we list Jennie Finch) we list figures like Dorothy Kamenshek; i think we can do better but we are doing not totally bad either. GuzzyG (talk) 13:43, 17 November 2019 (UTC)

• Idle thoughts:
  • Too many mathematicians?
  • Explorers and leaders draw heavily on people of military significance, a category (with essentially ONE exception) that's overwhelmingly male
  • Mary for Paul?
  • While it's easy to have several actresses on a list of 2,000 bios, it's difficult to pick a single actress for this list.
  • Do we really need Wagner? We have three other Classical composers who came from the German-speaking world

pbp 23:10, 19 November 2019 (UTC)

Around 2015, about 10% of biographies on Wikipedia were female. The percentage has gone up because of the Wikipedia:WikiProject Women in Red initiative. The mathematician section at the moment is on par with the overall list of biographies in terms of the gender ratio (1 out of 9 is female). Some sections, as pbp said, have a militaristic slant and would be more male-dominant than average but some sections have zero women despite women having a strong presence in that field. The one that stands out is music. Hildegard of Bingen used to be listed but was removed. In modern times, Madonna would probably have the best case. For a long time, Level 4 had 8 out of the top 9 best-selling musicians (list [[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_best-selling_music_artists and the one which was missing was Rihanna. She has the second highest number of total certified units of all time behind the Beatles. Obviously, there are recentism concerns and sales/mass popularity are not everything but it counts for something (otherwise Star Wars and so many superheroes wouldn't be listed at Level 4). But Elton John has since been removed at Level 4 so Rihanna's absence doesn't stick out like a sore thumb any more. Adding a suffragette and/or Nightingale would also be good at this level. Mary for Paul and removing Wagner sound like good ideas.

A few of the women on the list (Kahlo and Hatsheput) are regular candidates for removal but the proposals are never successful. Still, a significant portion of the voters here believe they're listed because of "political correctness" as opposed to their achievements. They also happen to 2 of the 3 non-white, non-Western women (and Murasaki was only recently added). I'm open to swapping Hatsheput with Nefertiti but Cleopatra is only famous for her relationship with Caesar, who is listed. Egypt was in decline during her time. Gizza ^(t)(c) 22:14, 20 November 2019 (UTC)

Level 3 is differ from 4 and does cover many white man from second millenium because of they had significant influence on changes in history of world (age of discovery etc.). Lists the on level 4 and the level 5 are more diversided, white man cover lower fraction but on the other hand we have more recentism there. My general observations:

• Generally I agree mostly what PBP has said.
• I belive number of all English writers from last half millenium should be lower than number of all religious figures which represents Abrahamic religions through human history. I nominated Dostoyevsky and Rumi before Enlish writers because of I wait for more opened discussion about all English writers at the same time. I am also not sure why we need three classical composers from German-speaking country or two rock representatives if we do not list something like fashion (IMO more deserve for FA than Impressionism) in culture area. I also belive Sappho can debatedly represnt women in music area and Hidegard of Bingen also would be more notable as religious figure than musician excatly just as Joan of Arc is more notable as religious figure than military figure
• The Joan of Arc is more notable as religious figure than as a military figure even is she has been venerated thank to her military constributions (see wikidata, gogle results, wikiproject statestments, how editors fint that article and even short describtions in rankings about the most inflential people in history) so IMO number of religious figures can be higher when we can list someone like Joan of Arc. IMO it is beter to add Mary and two non-Abrahamic figures (e g Zoroaster and Krishna) than swappping Paul for Mary (I also was wondering about withdrawn nomination with Thomas Aquinas). On the other hand we also potentially can add one man pure military figure because of we list man military figures who were politicians but Joan of Arc is the only pure military figure on the list (although on the other hand missed historic articles like Norman Conquest of England and Roman Empire seems be more important, influential and vital)
• I agree with PBP that Exploration and military are more specific activities for men but on the level 4-5 we should also cover activities which are dominated by women?). BTW according to this reliable and reviewed source (pp 16) pilots are in 99% men so I have trouble think about adding Amelia Earhart to represents pilots when for example my nomination of William G. Morgan has been failed on the level 4 (Even if inventor of the Volleyball unarguably is less notable than Amelia Ehart how he must be 100 times less vital if we got consensus that Chief designers are more important than astronauts? Or that number of biograpgies on the level 4 is too low?). Personally I think Aviation and History of aviation would be more esential topics to encyclopedia and comes first anyway. Dawid2009 (talk) 22:57, 20 November 2019 (UTC)

I generally agree with the idea that Sdkb laid out earlier: "the oppression of women throughout history could well have made them less than a tenth as likely to become notable at the VA3 level." I'm certainly ok with using gender balance as a factor in evaluating vital articles, but I would be against setting any specific proportion or number regarding gender (and, for that matter, race/culture/ethnicity). Orser67 (talk) 07:51, 1 December 2019 (UTC)

Also, specifically in regard to Level 3, I would be open to supporting Nefertiti and Queen Victoria depending on who would be removed. I would also potentially be open to supporting women in fields other than politics, but I mentioned them specifically since they seem like decent candidates. Orser67 (talk) 07:55, 1 December 2019 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Concept of work (labor/labour) for Level 2

It's a little surprising that "work" (as in labour/labor) is nowhere to be found at the higher levels. Admittedly the state of the article is poor at present (and mixed up with disambiguation). However, work is central to studies in anthropology, sociology, history, economics, politics, law. Every single society in human history has incorporated regulations, social norms and cultural practices that are rooted in work. Work is central to the entirety of human history. It makes sense that agriculture and trade are level 2, but to sit alongside business, which is a recent concept (human history wise, the birth of the corporation is relatively recent, the idea that a street-vendor is a business person is even more recent, since just 30-40 years ago they would have been classified as an informal labourer). Industry also seems somewhat misplaced in level 2 (covered by technology and economics and a more recent historical phenomenon). My proposal would be to include work in Level 2. I'm less certain whether it should be work or labour, but would tend more towards work for the simple reason that it avoids US/UK English spelling issues. As a small addendum, for indicative purposes, an Ngram search comparing work with business and industry (and labour/labor) shows a far higher prevalence for work.--Goldsztajn (talk) 09:19, 7 December 2019 (UTC)

From memory, job was a Level 2 article but then was removed. The rationale was that while it sounded like a vital concept in theory, in practice there wasn't much to write about it in an encyclopedia. Work may be vital though work and labour are disambiguation pages currently. Gizza ^(t)(c) 12:49, 7 December 2019 (UTC)

"Work" is such a broad category that I share DaGizza's concern over how much there is to actually say about it. And the disambiguation is also a stumbling block; perhaps employment might be the best candidate? It's currently level 3, which seems mostly sufficient to me. Sdkb (talk) 17:36, 7 December 2019 (UTC)

I would definitely be open to supporting something like labor/work, but I'm reluctant to support the addition of a disambiguation page. Also, I notice that we have employment at level 3 and job at level 4, which seems like an unnecessary overlap (between those two articles, and not with the proposed addition of labor/work) to me. Orser67 (talk) 17:42, 7 December 2019 (UTC)

In my opinion craft covers everything what is not oeverlap beetwen job and employment and would be better chioce than work/labor. Dawid2009 (talk) 19:56, 8 December 2019 (UTC)

Biology / Physical Sciences Split? Can we better align Levels 3 and 4?

Hi there! Noticed that in Vital Pages, Level 3 (this page!), Biology is lumped in with the Physical Sciences (chemistry, physics, etc). However, in the Level 4 page, Biology is lumped in with Biological/Health Sciences (including medicine, etc).

Willing to do the leg work here to move things around and make the classifications consistent amongst Levels if the community is okay with it.

However, before doing so, I was wondering what people's thoughts were regarding these potential changes: Should Biology be aligned with physical sciences as is on Level 3? Or should it be aligned with health sciences, as it is on Level 4?

Thank you all for being so awesome! --MatthewAwesome (talk) 17:45, 11 December 2019 (UTC)

That does seem strange. I don't have a strong opinion here, but I see four options:

• Keep status quo, where biology is in different categories at level 3 and level 4.
• Abolish "Health, medicine and disease" as a separate category at level 3, moving those articles into science.
• Move biology to the "Health, medicine and disease" at level 3 (possibly re-naming the category).
• Move biology to "physical sciences" at level 4 (possibly re-naming the category). Orser67 (talk) 22:41, 11 December 2019 (UTC)

Add New Zealand

There is only one country in this list part of Oceania. I think this should be added to this list as well. Interstellarity (talk) 17:13, 13 December 2019 (UTC)

Not bad, but I would prefer to add Papua New Guinea, or New Guinea. New Zealand has population of under 5 million, and human history only starts less than 800 years ago, one of the last large places discovered by humans. Papua New Guinea has been inhabited by humans for somewhere in the realm of 50,000 years or more, has 8 million people and is one of the most language and culture diverse places on the planet. Agriculture was independently developed there.  Carlwev  18:32, 13 December 2019 (UTC)

This has been discussed previously. I still oppose adding New Zealand, per the comments of the opposing !votes in that discussion. Oceania is not underrepresented: there are four countries with populations larger than all of Oceania that are not on the list. Cobblet (talk) 02:30, 14 December 2019 (UTC)

I oppose per Cobblet. Sdkb (talk) 03:54, 14 December 2019 (UTC)

Oppose per my comment here. If diversity is needed I would say something like Pacific Islands would be a better option, though I still wouldn't support it. However, it was merged earlier this year (I had previously proposed it at VA4 (here)). Happy Festivities! // J947 ^(c) 22:26, 30 December 2019 (UTC)

Swap: remove Hatshepsut, add Nefertiti

Hatshepsut is the first important female politician; but Nefertiti had more of a impact when Egypt was more at it's peak; combine the fact that Nefertiti likely had more of a influence; combined with her being a big pop culture name but with influence unlike Cleopatra; i think Nefertiti is a better addition.

Support

1. Support as nom. GuzzyG (talk) 19:23, 31 December 2019 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Oppose Egyptologists consider Hatshepsut one of the most successful pharaohs. She acutally ruled as a pharaoh for a long period of time - Nefertiti probably not (views on that among Historians differ). --Spaced about (talk) 20:12, 31 December 2019 (UTC)
2. Oppose Hatshepsut definitely the more significant figure in history. Acted in her own right, not the woman behind the scenes. Pop culture popularity definitely not the reason to list something as a vital article. Montanabw^(talk) 16:44, 3 January 2020 (UTC)

Discuss

I agree on the big pop culture name, however Hatshepsut's political and historical influence is far greater. She actually ruled Egypt, built the great Mortuary Temple among others, sent an expedition to the Land of Punt, re-established lost trade routes and is generally regarded by Egyptologists as one of the most successful pharaohs, who left behind a prosperous country. Nefertiti was Akhenatons wife, who, according to some scholars might have briefly ruled Egypt. However, Amarna was abandoned anyway and the old Pantheon restored. All the best Wikirictor 20:16, 31 December 2019 (UTC)

Swap: remove Herodotus, add Sima Qian

We list 4 Greeks in a row in the "Philosophers and social scientists" section; not to mention all the other Ancient Greeks around the list; it wouldn't hurt to include Sima Qian and have 2 Chinese and three Greeks.

Support

1. Support as nom. GuzzyG (talk) 19:23, 31 December 2019 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Herodotus is the father of history. Sima Qian is not. Chris Troutman (talk) 20:55, 31 December 2019 (UTC)
2. We need at least one historian at this level pbp 14:43, 1 January 2020 (UTC)
3. Oppose I'm neutral on adding Sima Qian, but I definitely oppose removing the individual often considered to be the "father of history" in the West. I would probably feel the opposite if this were the Chinese language Wikipedia, but Herodotus has had a much bigger impact on Western and English language scholarship than Sima Qian did. Orser67 (talk) 16:42, 2 January 2020 (UTC)

Discuss

What exactly would you call Sima Qian, a actor? This is exactly what's wrong with this list; Herodotus may be the "father of history" to the west; but Qian is father of history to the East and Qians model of history lasted longer in his part of the world than Herodotus history lasted in the west. Atleast click on the article before straight away opposing. Records of the Grand Historian is just as important as Histories (Herodotus); except to a higher percentage of people considering the population differences between Europe/China. China's population was always MUCH bigger than Ancient Greece [15] GuzzyG (talk) 06:45, 2 January 2020 (UTC)

Thought i'd post an excerpt from the Records of the Grand Historian article here; since articles don't get clicked; "The Records has been called a "foundational text in Chinese civilization".After Confucius and the First Emperor of Qin, "Sima Qian was one of the creators of Imperial China, not least because by providing definitive biographies, he virtually created the two earlier figures""; sound like a 129 level figure when we list Walt Disney and Animation and have a quota of 1000. Without Qian; the history of the east would be differentGuzzyG (talk) 06:52, 2 January 2020 (UTC)

Swap: remove Werner Heisenberg, add Francis Bacon

When we have 4 physcists in a row; why not list Bacon instead; who is "credited with developing the scientific method" and dscribed as the "father of empiricism"; it wouldn't hurt to have more pre modern science and less 20th century figures.

Support

1. Support as nom. GuzzyG (talk) 19:23, 31 December 2019 (UTC)
2. Support as nom. All the best Wikirictor 20:23, 31 December 2019 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Swap: remove Charles Dickens, add William the Conqueror

We have a 400 year gap between Charlemagne and Genghis Khan in politicians and this would ease it; i don't have to go in detail about who has had and will continue to have had the more impact on the British isles. We need to de-modernise this list, artists are severely bloated. Modern UK wouldn't exist without William; it would Dickens. Without William; world history and trajectory is changed. Without Dickens; William Makepeace Thackeray would have taken his place. Why list a victorian before Queen Victoria? We already list a English novelist on this level; with this compact a list; we really need to be strict; there's way too many vital world leaders missing too list fo us too list two modern English novelists; if we needed two modern English writers we should list Byron or Keats or any romantic poet or Chaucer or John Milton; which would make our English writers coverage a playwright, poet and novelist - it's essential this list is spread out rather than clutter like two English novelists; no matter the fame of someone like Dickens.

Support

1. Support as nom. GuzzyG (talk) 19:23, 31 December 2019 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Swap: remove Fyodor Dostoevsky, add Rabindranath Tagore

We already list two Russian writers; which service less population than Tagore; who is not only known for both literature and visual art; the first "first non-European to win the Nobel Prize in Literature" and who has composed the Indian/Bangladesh national anthems. We don't list any artists from India. Either way Alexander Pushkin and Anton Chekhov are just as vital as Dostoevsky; Tolstoy is the central and only vital Russian writer at this level. On Pushkins lede it says "who is considered by many to be the greatest Russian poet and the founder of modern Russian literature." Why list two Russian novelists and not include a poet, especially if he's the founder of Russian literature? To be fair; we do the same with English literature by listing Dickens/Austen and not Geoffrey Chaucer but that's why i nominated Dickens for removal two; we really need to be very strict on this level. People like to cite "we should represent english speakers" to include people like Dickens; but there's more English speakers in India than the population in the UK [16]; which means Tagore should qualify under that same rule.

Support

1. Support as nom. GuzzyG (talk) 19:23, 31 December 2019 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Swap: remove Richard Wagner, add Saladin

We list 4 German composers in a row; not to mention most of the modern artists being modern figures. Saladin is the "first sultan of Egypt and Syria and the founder of the Ayyubid dynasty" and "Saladin led the Muslim military campaign against the Crusader states in the Levant. At the height of his power, his sultanate included Egypt, Syria, Upper Mesopotamia, the Hejaz, Yemen and other parts of North Africa.". He's also the "he has often been described as being the most famous Kurd in history". Defeating the crusaders is more important to world history than changing Opera and should be more important to list than 4 German composers.

Support

1. Support as nom. GuzzyG (talk) 19:23, 31 December 2019 (UTC)
2. Support Wagner is rather popular, yet plays a minor role in the (international) cultural historical context. All the best Wikirictor 20:31, 31 December 2019 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Oppose Wagner is extremely important German composer. Picking him out seems a politically or ideologically motivated proposal. Ludost Mlačani (talk) 17:43, 6 January 2020 (UTC)
2. I think en-wiki should prefer key figures of Western civilization. Featured Article about Wagner compared to the B-class article about Saladin (already a level4 vital article) speaks to our readers' revealed preference. One should only read about Saladin they way one reads about Tamerlane: to be horrified by them. Chris Troutman (talk) 17:54, 6 January 2020 (UTC)
   1. I have no view yet on this proposal, but the whole point of this project is to identify articles that ought to become featured, so using which articles are currently featured as a criterion for which articles ought to be made featured seems like a circular methodology. Sdkb (talk) 18:26, 6 January 2020 (UTC)
      1. The article about Richard Wagner ought to be an FA, and it is; job done. Saladin is not so important in the Western world and so, isn't vital. Chris Troutman (talk) 18:33, 6 January 2020 (UTC)

Discuss

Swap: remove Ernest Hemingway, add Constantine the Great

Why list Hemingway when we list Twain? How many 20th century artists do we need? or even 20th century figures in total when we list so many world changing figures. Without Constantine; history would be different while Hemingway's place would be taken by John Steinbeck or F. Scott Fitzgerald. No serious encyclopedia would list Hemingway before Constantine. Hemingway isn't even listed in Wikimedias list [17]; which shows how much of an extreme American bias his listing is, two modern American novelists is absurd. I simply cannot describe Constantine's effect on the world. There's a 750 year gap in politicians between Augustus and Charlemagne; which this would fill; meanwhile we list 3 20th century writers and 2 modern American writers; we need to balance this list; there should be no nearly 800 year gap in politicians to list 2 American novelists.

Support

1. Support as nom. GuzzyG (talk) 19:23, 31 December 2019 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Swap: remove Claude Monet, add Cicero

I know i supported Monet in the above vote; but i didn't know Impressionism wasn't listed. Monet founded a modern art movement; Here's some things listed on Cicero's lede

"is considered one of Rome's greatest orators and prose stylists"

"Petrarch's rediscovery of Cicero's letters is often credited for initiating the 14th-century Renaissance in public affairs, humanism, and classical Roman culture. According to Polish historian Tadeusz Zieliński, "the Renaissance was above all things a revival of Cicero, and only after him and through him of the rest of Classical antiquity." The peak of Cicero's authority and prestige came during the 18th-century Enlightenment, and his impact on leading Enlightenment thinkers and political theorists such as John Locke, David Hume, Montesquieu and Edmund Burke was substantial. His works rank among the most influential in European culture, and today still constitute one of the most important bodies of primary material for the writing and revision of Roman history, especially the last days of the Roman Republic."

"His influence on the Latin language was immense: it has been said that subsequent prose was either a reaction against or a return to his style, not only in Latin but in European languages up to the 19th century. Cicero introduced the Romans to the chief schools of Greek philosophy and created a Latin philosophical vocabulary"

all of that should add up to more worthy of a placement than another modern painter when we list Van Gogh/Picasso and Kahlo and we list no Roman intellectual.

Support

1. Support as nom. GuzzyG (talk) 19:23, 31 December 2019 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Swap: remove Paul the Apostle, add Ali

So this one might be the most controversial; but 3 list 3 christianity figures Jesus, Paul and Martin Luther; but only one islamic figure; i think listing two of each would be better. Paul spread Jesus's teachings; which makes it more closer to being having two people for the same thing. Ali is the central Shia figure; one of the two major denominations of Islam; i think Ali's achievements are more individal than Paul's. Also Paul is not listed on the Wikimedia worldwide list [18]. Ali would be a better add for religion than Madonna; which is being discussed above.

Support

1. Support as nom. GuzzyG (talk) 19:23, 31 December 2019 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Ali achieved nothing except being murdered; that others created a sect matters not. Pauline Christianity exists because of St. Paul. Chris Troutman (talk) 20:58, 31 December 2019 (UTC)

Discuss

Jesus is an important figure in Islam as well. Judaism would also have to be taken into consideration. The two Jewish representatives listed, Moses and Abraham, are not specific to Judaism. Maimonides might have a case. --Spaced about (talk) 20:41, 31 December 2019 (UTC)

I've long offered support for Maimonides, i agree with him aswell, religion wouldn't be out of place at 10 reps; but Ali is important too as a politician in a span of over a hundred years of politics we're missing; it's a two bird one stone nomination; Paul doesn't represent that and it would not be a big loss losing his biography, but we'd gain with Ali. GuzzyG (talk) 20:49, 31 December 2019 (UTC)

I'd like to keep Paul the Apostle, but I'd favor swapping in Ali for someone like Wagner or Monet. Orser67 (talk) 06:36, 5 January 2020 (UTC)

Remove News

since we're one over quota; do we really need a subsection of journalism at this level? What makes this general topic vital?

Support

1. Support as nom. GuzzyG (talk) 20:18, 31 December 2019 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Oppose whether it's electronic, on paper, or word of mouth at the village well, news have been important for mankind throughout history. --Spaced about (talk) 20:36, 31 December 2019 (UTC)
2. Oppose we have better candidates for removal. Sdkb (talk) 04:05, 1 January 2020 (UTC)
3. Oppose clearly vital pbp 14:41, 1 January 2020 (UTC)

Discuss

So have Containers but it's just too general a article. GuzzyG (talk) 21:34, 31 December 2019 (UTC)

Clearly vital? Britannica doesn't have an article on it[19], maybe their mistake? A everyday service doesn't equal a vital encyclopedic article. GuzzyG (talk) 06:42, 2 January 2020 (UTC)

Remove New religious movement

At this level, it's sufficient to cover the bigger established religions. New religious movement is not more important than Paganism which is not on L3. --Spaced about (talk) 11:44, 1 January 2020 (UTC)

Support

1. Support as nom. --Spaced about (talk) 11:44, 1 January 2020 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Oppose pbp 14:42, 1 January 2020 (UTC)
2. Oppose I think it's a useful umbrella article for describing a wide range of movements, some of which are fairly popular. Looking at philosophy and religion, I'm not sure that Western esotericism is worth listing at this level. Orser67 (talk) 06:10, 5 January 2020 (UTC)

Remove Cenk Uyghur

I don't seem to see him in any discussion and yet his talk page was modified to declare him vital to journalism. Despite being low rated on several other scales. Coming here rather than reverting on the off chance I missed something Slywriter (talk) 04:22, 5 January 2020 (UTC)

He's listed at level 5, so discussion should take place here: Wikipedia talk:Vital articles/Level/5. Orser67 (talk) 06:06, 5 January 2020 (UTC)