Talk:Murder of Samuel Paty

Rename / delete / translate

Would be better to translate fr:Attentat_de_Conflans-Sainte-Honorine. Yug (talk) 11:12, 17 October 2020 (UTC)

What if I do translate the article, as I am French, and change the title to Conflans-Sainte-Honorine beheading?

~~Omir Laa~~ — Preceding unsigned comment added by Omir Laa (talk • contribs) 15:56, 17 October 2020 (UTC)

Omir Laa the French word attentat needs a good translation, "behading" is not accurate. A Thousand Words (talk) 16:41, 17 October 2020 (UTC)

I know it isn't, but I don't know if attack works in this case. If I rename it attack can I translate the article from the French Wikipedia?

~~Omir Laa~~ — Preceding unsigned comment added by Omir Laa (talk • contribs) 16:51, 17 October 2020 (UTC)

See below for the reason not to change the title of this article. Translating the French article can be done without changing the title. Jim Michael (talk) 16:59, 17 October 2020 (UTC)

The title ignores the political context

Hi Jim Michael, French sources use the term attentat, which means something like "attack" in English but has political connotations (such as the murder of a politician or official). A Thousand Words (talk) 16:44, 17 October 2020 (UTC) There is a reason that the President Macron and other ministers have commented on the attack and those reasons are that the attack has a political dimension. A Thousand Words (talk) 16:45, 17 October 2020 (UTC)

Paty was the sole victim who was specifically targeted, so the title Murder of Samuel Paty is the usual format, regardless of the killer's reason for choosing him. Jim Michael (talk) 16:59, 17 October 2020 (UTC)

Murder is not accurate. Do you murder beef? No. Murder is a legal term. Nobody has been convicted. Homicide of Samuel Paty or Killing of Samuel Paty or Beheading of Samuel Paty is more accurate. Please comment on which you prefer. Carunitfiat903 (talk) 19:09, 17 October 2020 (UTC)

Murder of [victim's name] is the standard title for such articles. We have many which have been quickly followed by the killer's death. It isn't seriously being disputed that this was a murder.

Beef isn't from humans, so that's irrelevant. Jim Michael (talk) 20:05, 17 October 2020 (UTC)

Wikipedia has a rule; Other Crap Exists. Each article is judged separately. This could have been not guilty due to insanity or manslaughter. This is a more chilling article because the teacher's head was cut off. Therefore, Beheading of Samuel Paty is the most appropriate, in my opinion but "murder" is just an opinion, not supported by the courts or facts. Just like hospice is not considered murder. Vice President Nelson Rockefeller was allowed to die while having a heart attack but it was not murder, but a sexual affair. Carunitfiat903 (talk) 20:58, 17 October 2020 (UTC)

Murder, and killing both seem like they should be acceptable. I think "beheading of..." is not usually a good idea, but in this case, it's the main fact that the news is focusing on, so it's a common name. Natureium (talk) 23:00, 17 October 2020 (UTC)

My vote for all these articles is that they be named "The Killing of Jane Doe". The guy does has a point. Especially in the cases where it still isn't technically charged as murder and that term is factually and legally is still incorrect, it might go to be manslaughter, etc. The Killing of is a wide umbrella term that most search users would probably type first too.Dr.EbrahimSaadawi (talk) 05:36, 18 October 2020 (UTC)

It standard for us to name articles Murder of x when there was a sole victim. The mainstream media & the French President have clearly said it was murder & there's no doubt that Paty was deliberately killed & that he was personally targeted. It can't seriously be argued that it wasn't murder. Article titles of Killing of x is done when a suspect/defendant is in custody or when the killer has been convicted of a lesser crime in relation to the killing (such as manslaughter), rather than murder. Jim Michael (talk) 07:40, 18 October 2020 (UTC)

I tend to agree that "Killing of [Name]" is preferable to "Murder of [Name]" in the absence of a murder conviction, even when we know that there won't be a trial (I moved this article to "Killing of Samuel Paty", though it was moved back shortly thereafter). There is a RfC about this subject matter: Wikipedia talk:Article titles#RfC: Shooting or Death or Killing or Murder? TompaDompa (talk) 10:17, 18 October 2020 (UTC)

Killing of ... is actually even worse since it further removes from the title the fact that the death had a political context. What's the point in trying to suppress the political context? Many French sources and the French article uses attentat and the closest English translation is Assassination of .... TompaDompa earlier you championed that this article should take inspiration from its French-language counterpart, yet now you seem to ignore both the title of the frWP article as well as French-language sources? For instance French Yahoo uses assassinat (assassination). Therefore I propose the article be changed to Assassination of ...' A Thousand Words (talk) 10:26, 18 October 2020 (UTC)

World leaders (JFK,MLK) are assassinated, humble school teachers are not. WWGB (talk) 10:33, 18 October 2020 (UTC)

1Kwords, knock it off with assuming bad faith. earlier you championed that this article should take inspiration from its French-language counterpart I assume you're referring to this edit where I added the {{Expand French}} template, but that was in response to your edit summary saying "while it is true that "the French-language article is linked to the left", the significant information is that the French- and German-language versions have a lot more information." (which was in turn a response to this edit of mine), and you then went on to call that disruptive tagbombing. If you are to keep assuming that all my edits are made in bad faith, I suggest you take your grievances to WP:ANI. I would of course prefer if you simply stopped and assumed good faith instead. TompaDompa (talk) 10:55, 18 October 2020 (UTC)

The victim was nowhere near prominent enough for this murder to meet the definition of assassination. Murder is more precise & accurate than killing. A title such as Conflans-Sainte-Honorine attack makes it sound like the location is the most relevant aspect of it, but there was only one victim here who was specifically, individually targeted - the location is significantly less relevant. Also, attack is usually used in titles in which there are multiple (often random) victims, such as Attack on Pearl Harbor, September 11 attacks & November 2015 Paris attacks. Jim Michael (talk) 11:58, 18 October 2020 (UTC)

TompaDompa, the only addition you made was a tag whereas many other editors have managed to make many contributions using both English and French sources. Of course I would prefer that you helped with building this article using WP:RS sources. A Thousand Words (talk) 13:07, 18 October 2020 (UTC)

I don't see the relevance of this. Your preferences about how I spend my time on Wikipedia in general and this article in particular are no reason to assume bad faith. As you correctly pointed out, a large number of other editors have expanded the article, so I don't see how or why it is a big problem that I haven't (also, Wikipedia is WP:NOTCOMPULSORY). Again, if you think I am behaving WP:DISRUPTIVELY, you can make your case to that effect over at WP:ANI. TompaDompa (talk) 16:12, 18 October 2020 (UTC)

Have we considered the possibility that "murder" is already the COMMONNAME? It appears to return more results (156 results) on Google News than "killing" (102 results). --- C&C (Coffeeandcrumbs) 04:08, 19 October 2020 (UTC)

Nope, scratch that last thought. It appears when you discount one non-RS, you get "murder" (31 results) and "killing" (87 results). --- C&C (Coffeeandcrumbs) 04:17, 19 October 2020 (UTC)

Reviewed about ~15 original reporting articles (AP News, Reuters, CNN, NPR, Euro News, WSJ, VOA, etc.., instead of reprints) and the sources often (with few exceptions) avoid calling it a "murder". Even those who mention Paty being "murdered", refer to the event as the "killing of Samuel Paty". France24 is an exception and more often calls it a "murder", some times assassination. --- C&C (Coffeeandcrumbs) 04:51, 19 October 2020 (UTC)

Assassination is clearly wrong, no Eng sources refer to it thus and no reader would look for it thus. In English, that word is only used for political figures killed because of their politics/high political position - JFK, MLK, Franz-Josef, Ian Gow, but not Jo Cox. I concur that 'killing' is preferable to 'murder' since the second has a specific legal definition which has not been met. Although gruesome, I would have no objection to using the manner of death, as we do with other forms of killing.Pincrete (talk) 10:37, 19 October 2020 (UTC)

We only have a few articles that are titled Beheading of x. We have many times more which are titled Murder of x; many of those - like this one - were not followed by a murder conviction due to the killer's death. Jim Michael (talk) 10:47, 19 October 2020 (UTC)

I understand that. However, all that is immaterial unless you can show that "murder" is the COMMONNAME for this death. Articles about killings that were not followed by a murder conviction are called "murder" because that is the COMMONNAME for the event in RS. --- C&C (Coffeeandcrumbs) 18:43, 19 October 2020 (UTC)

I also oppose "beheading" since that is a rarely used title (currently only 4 articles use it). That also needs proof of COMMONNAME. --- C&C (Coffeeandcrumbs) 18:43, 19 October 2020 (UTC)

Perpetrator is Russian

Maybe Chechen anyway, his nationality is russian. Or not ? Why not mentioned ? --2001:A61:BBC:101:111A:DFD6:7010:B495 (talk) 21:33, 17 October 2020 (UTC)

No, the following is correct: citizinship - Russian, nationality - Chechen. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:16B8:2AC7:4A00:3410:5958:900F:F75E (talk) 23:34, 17 October 2020 (UTC)

petition for delete

IP user is not here to build an encylopedia

this entire article should be deleted it is Islamophobic and Xenophobic. It's not mentioned anywhere that the professor provoked the Muslim in question. Free speech is not freedom from consequences. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.80.228.253 (talk) 04:10, 18 October 2020 (UTC) It is unclear whether you are a fundamentalist or just a troll. The teacher asked Muslim students to leave the class before he discussed the Charlie Hebdo shooting, which any history teacher is entitled to teach. The murderer was not "provoked", he was not there and neither was any other Muslim. It's called "mind your own business". If you think that a bloody barbaric beheading is just a "consequence" then that is a very sad reflection on your perception. I see you post from Canada, where you no doubt enjoy the freedoms provided by the West. Rather than "Islamophobic and Xenophobic", you seem more concerned by truthaphobia. WWGB (talk) 04:34, 18 October 2020 (UTC) Also certainly a troll since in 2019 they demanded the Expulsions and exoduses of Jews be deleted claiming tha article was antiemetic and stated that it wasn’t our fault god chose us.--76.67.169.43 (talk) 05:25, 18 October 2020 (UTC) Actually it's mentioned in the opening lines that the murder was caused by the teacher's teaching Muhammed's caricatures. So do you want us to insert a POV in there as well and say the murder was justified? Where did you see anywhere that in a Wikipedia article that the editor inserted his own POV on whether any crime is justified or not? Please lead us to them so we could delete these justifyings based on alleged provocations.Dr.EbrahimSaadawi (talk) 05:44, 18 October 2020 (UTC) Delete? What utter nonsense. 99.229.116.186 (talk) 17:38, 18 October 2020 (UTC)

Reaction removed

@WWGB: You recently removed some reactions of celebrities and politician in your this edit. Can I know the reason please? -- Manasbose ^{(talk | contribs)} 13:43, 18 October 2020 (UTC)

I guess it was because he considers them to be of insufficient relevance/importance to be included. Where should the line be drawn in regard to who should be included in the Reactions section? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jim Michael (talk • contribs)

They are just stating personal opinions. They do not speak on behalf of any notable organisation. Who cares what they think? WWGB (talk) 00:45, 19 October 2020 (UTC)

In that case, they can be added in public protest section (as they are "notable" public) . -- Manasbose ^{(talk | contribs)} 06:25, 19 October 2020 (UTC)

Nationality

I removed from the box the assumption that the perpetrator was a French citizen. The sources say he was given refugee status and ten-year right to residency this year. Countries don't usually make their citizens apply to remain every ten years. There needs to be citation for any possible Russian citizenship, as there is the possibility of resigning it, or the family never having it in the first place if they left in 2002 when the separatist conflict was still ongoing. Unknown Temptation (talk) 16:12, 18 October 2020 (UTC)

Depiction of the cartoon showed

Can we find a picture of the cartoon showed? What was shown was significant as it seems to be at the center of the murder.VR _talk 19:39, 19 October 2020 (UTC)