Talk:Gaza Strip

this article is incorrect

Issues in Lead

Nableezy I agree it is odd to call it a de facto sovereign state, but I do not know what other term is most accurate. Describing it as a "Palestinian enclave" with a hyperlink to an article about West Bank enclaves specifically is definitely not accurate, especially since the actual definition of an enclave does not include territories that border the ocean. I also think it should be mentioned that Hamas won the elections but Fatah refused to recognize the results, since that is the reason as to why Hamas only rules the Gaza strip and not the West Bank as well, and the PNA is already mentioned in the article, so additional clarification is necessary. Bill Williams 22:03, 29 December 2021 (UTC)

Im ok removing the wikilink, and maybe enclave is not the right word. But Hamas nor anybody else claims Gaza to be a state. And given that the UN and others consider it to still be under Israeli occupation it is definitely not sovereign. Why one rules Gaza and the other rules the West Bank is way more complicated than a failure to recognize results, but even then it doesnt change that all parties continue to consider Gaza and the West Bank to form one territory. nableezy - 22:07, 29 December 2021 (UTC)

Yeah I agree that "sovereign" is certainly an inaccurate term, but I think "Palestinian territory" would be much more accurate than "Palestinian enclave", linking to the article on Palestinians instead of the West Bank enclaves. Although it may not be a sovereign territory, the term "Gaza Strip" always refers specifically to a territory that is almost entirely Palestinian. Bill Williams 22:17, 29 December 2021 (UTC)

There is no shortage of correct descriptions.Here is an uptodate source that refers to Gaza as a bantustan and as an enclave. Apart from that, it is also part of the territory claimed by (State of) Palestine or you could simply refer to it as Opt.

"Bantustan" is rarely ever used to describe Gaza, and "enclave" is factually incorrect. An enclave is landlocked and fully surrounded by another territory, which does not describe Gaza. As for your source, it is far too biased to used to put a controversial term in the very front of the lead. Bill Williams 22:48, 29 December 2021 (UTC)

We go by sources and the given source is certainly more reliable than your opinion. As for googling things try Gaza + Bantustan.Selfstudier (talk) 22:54, 29 December 2021 (UTC)

"the given source is certainly more reliable than your opinion" does not magically prove that "bantustan" is commonly used to describe gaza, because it is not. If you tried "googling things" you would see that [1] gaza being called a "palestinian territory" has 1,770,000 results, while gaza being called a "bantustan" has [2] only 21,800, i.e. 1/80 the results. Similar to territory, the term "enclave" comes up with a similar number of results[3] at 1,240,000, but the term is geographically inaccurate[4] and therefore it should not be used. Bill Williams 18:26, 30 December 2021 (UTC)

I never said that Bantustan is commonly used, I was disputing your "rarely" which is simply wrong. There is even a 1985 book called Bantustan Gaza.

There are different definitions for enclave. Oxford languages gives "a portion of territory within or surrounded by a larger territory whose inhabitants are culturally or ethnically distinct. and "they gave troops a week to leave the coastal enclave" <- Gaza.

Gaza (or the WB) being called Palestinian territory gets the most hits because it was called that for years. As I already said above, Occupied Palestinian Territory (or OPT) is much more common now Selfstudier (talk) 18:47, 30 December 2021 (UTC)

Occupied Palestinian Territory means it is still a Palestinian territory, and the Israeli-Palestine dispute is already covered in this article. The territory is blockaded by Israel and Egypt, resulting in what some consider an occupation, but that has a detailed explanation later in the lead, so calling it "occupied" a few words into the article would mislead readers into thinking it is has enemy soldiers within it or something. Bill Williams 19:55, 30 December 2021 (UTC)

I agree bantustan is not the typical thing to call Gaza. I think enclave is often used, but not in the way that it is used in the article Palestinian enclaves, which is more about the disconnected areas within the West Bank, though Gaza is sometimes also treated as that. I do not think state, de facto or any other qualifier notwithstanding, is appropriate. The results on "palestinian territory" are skwewed by all the results that include it within the "Occupied Palestinian territory" (including most of the first page of your search). nableezy - 18:31, 30 December 2021 (UTC)

Yeah I did notice that it may be skewed, but I still think it is a more accurate term. The Palestinian enclaves within occupied Israeli territory should not be conflated with Gaza, since they are ruled differently and are separated by Israel, and I think that hyperlinking to them is too misleading. I think the only accurate term that can be used in the first few words of the article is "Palestinian territory" since although it may not be a state by some definitions, it is certainly a territory that is almost entirety inhabited by Palestinians. Bill Williams 18:42, 30 December 2021 (UTC)

See the ngram above, Palestinian territory is used by the BBC (their style guide is positively Victorian) but is otherwise old hat.Selfstudier (talk) 18:49, 30 December 2021 (UTC)

Just use google and you will see numerous instances of it being referred to as a "Palestinian territory". Oxford is not a geographical expert, neither is the media, the technical definition of enclave is completely surrounded and landlocked which does not accurately describe the Gaza Strip. Israel and Egypt's blockade may make Gaza de facto landlocked, but the geographical term does not account for the political dispute, just Gaza's location, which is bordering the sea. As for Bantustan, that term is rarely used; the term rarely could mean tens of thousands, but out of millions, it is relatively rare. Bill Williams 19:52, 30 December 2021 (UTC)

Ngrams uses scholarly sources, as well as laying it out timewise, much better. The fact that you thought Gaza a de facto sovereign state and now you think it a Palestinian territory tells me all I need to know, really.Selfstudier (talk) 19:59, 30 December 2021 (UTC)

Theres no reason to be dismissive of somebody changing their mind when other information is brought up, this does not have to be combative at all. nableezy - 20:01, 30 December 2021 (UTC)

Now that you mention it, nowhere in Wikipedia on Gaza Strip did it mention the blockade that Israel has created is also equally done by the Egyptians. And for the same reason... Security Llatlarge (talk) 13:10, 9 October 2023 (UTC)

Can you explain why you think enclave, without the link (and Im going to remove that now, just clicking on it proves it should not be used here as it defines itself as WB areas), is inaccurate? I feel like territory is somehow accurate but too non-specific. I get technically Gaza has its territorial waters, but those are also controlled by Israel. I guess despite the border with Egypt being closed that makes it technically not an enclave? nableezy - 20:00, 30 December 2021 (UTC)

Yeah that is what I am saying, Israel heavily restricts and often closes its border, Egypt has restrictions on its as well, and both blockade the shorelines, so its borders are effectively under complete control of other nations. But the term enclave is not about the geopolitical situation, only the geographical one; for example, although Vatican City is geographically an enclave, there are almost no restrictions on its "border" with Italy, so it functions as if it is just another part of Rome. Having no control over your external borders does not make you an enclave, since Nepal is surrounded on two sides by China and India, each of which has far more influence over its borders than it does, but it is not completely surrounded by one single country, and therefore is not an enclave. Although Israel exerts more restrictions over its territory, Gaza is still surrounded by both Israel and Egypt, in addition to its territorial waters, meaning it is not technically a geographical enclave. Bill Williams 20:28, 30 December 2021 (UTC)

I think this is a verifiability vs truth thing, but I also think your point is fair. How about The Gaza Strip is a narrow strip of land on the eastern shore of the Mediterranean Sea, forming, along with the West Bank including East Jerusalem, the Palestinian territories. And then some bits about being bordered by Egypt (@Zero0000: is that actually a border or is that too an armistice line?) and Israel (taking care of the word border there)? nableezy - 21:17, 30 December 2021 (UTC)

I think that is an improvement, but I would prefer

"The Gaza Strip, commonly referred to as Gaza, is a narrow strip of land on the eastern shore of the Mediterranean Sea. Gaza is one of the two Palestinian territories, along with the West Bank; both are claimed by the de jure sovereign State of Palestine, but Gaza is under the control of Hamas, a militant Palestinian Islamist organization."

The part about East Jerusalem is unnecessary since that is part of the West Bank, and I all of the adjectives on the State of Palestine and Hamas could be left for later paragraphs, but it would be okay this way. Bill Williams 21:48, 30 December 2021 (UTC)

Also I think the more detailed explanation of the Hamas-Fatah conflict belongs in the second paragraph instead of the last paragraph. Bill Williams 21:53, 30 December 2021 (UTC)

I dont like the one of the two, they together make up the singular unit. I suppose I am ok removing EJ. I dont think we need to define Hamas here either, thats what the Hamas article is for. I also dont think it is a claim that that they are claimed by the state or that there is a state is a claim, thats an established fact by other states recognizing it, but that is also not necessary here. Lets see if anybody else has any suggestions on wording here, but not too big a fan of some of these changes. Ill suggest something else soonish as well. nableezy - 22:25, 30 December 2021 (UTC)

That is true, I think we could shorten it and explain what Hamas and the claims of Palestine are later, simply by putting in the first two sentences:,

"The Gaza Strip, commonly referred to as Gaza, is a Palestinian territory on the eastern shore of the Mediterranean Sea. Gaza is claimed by the State of Palestine, but has been under the control of Hamas since 2007."

The specifics could be left for later in the article or the respective articles of the individual topics. Bill Williams 22:50, 30 December 2021 (UTC)

To editor Nableezy: You ask if the Gaza-Egypt boundary is an armistice line or a border. The 1949 armistice agreement did not define it as either, as the armistice line followed the Gaza Strip border around the north and east. The 1979 Israel-Egypt peace treaty says "The permanent boundary between Egypt and Israel is the recognized international boundary between Egypt and the former mandated territory of Palestine, as shown on the map at Annex II, without prejudice to the issue of the status of the Gaza Strip." (A similar wording wrt the WB appears in the Israel-Jordan treaty.) So it is a border as far as Egypt and Israel are concerned, with allowance for future change of status. No Palestinian body was party to the Israel-Egypt treaty, but I don't think that either Hamas or PA claim bits of Sinai so it is a reasonable assumption (without an explicit source) that they also regard it as a border. Zero^talk 02:32, 31 December 2021 (UTC)

I would be content with a first para

"The Gaza Strip, commonly referred to as Gaza, is an enclave on the eastern shore of the Mediterranean Sea (refs) claimed, together with the West Bank, by the State of Palestine.(ref) It borders Egypt on the southwest for 11 kilometers (6.8 mi) and Israel on the east and north along a 51 km (32 mi) border.(ref)"

or similar. I think the Hamas governance sits better in the second para along with the way that came to be.Selfstudier (talk) 14:45, 31 December 2021 (UTC)

The State of Palestine has effectively almost 0 control over the Gaza Strip, so if it is mentioned in the first paragraph, then Hamas's de facto control should be mentioned as well. And once again, the geographical term "enclave" does not apply to the Gaza Strip. The sources that use it clearly do not understand the true geographical meaning, which is completely surrounded by a single state, with no territorial waters that border a sea that connects to an ocean. Gaza borders the Mediterranean, which connects to the Atlantic Ocean, so it is not landlocked, regardless of Israel and Egypt's blockage of some of its territorial waters, it still has partial control over the closest parts of the waters, and it is surrounded by two states, Israel and Egypt, not the single one required for it to be an enclave. Bill Williams 19:11, 31 December 2021 (UTC)

Strictly speaking (at least by one def) it is an exclave and it's classed as that in our list article but that's an odd word to put in the lead, particularly when so many completely stupid and unreliable sources (BBC included) are happy to call it an enclave.

Let's see if anyone will agree with you re the need for Hamas control to be in line 2 instead of line 3. Selfstudier (talk) 19:17, 31 December 2021 (UTC)

Yeah I know I am being technical, and that many sources call it an enclave, but my point is that if an editor is writing about the controversy of Israel and Palestine, they will pay minimal attention to geographical terms that they did not realize were being used incorrectly. I also agree that calling it an exclave would be odd, since most readers would not know what that is either. Bill Williams 19:19, 31 December 2021 (UTC)

Un año mas, here's to 2022 :) Selfstudier (talk) 19:29, 31 December 2021 (UTC)

Hamas missles

Hamas in the gaza strip have sent missiles killing some Israeli soldiers in Israel declaring war. Israel have called on reservist soldiers to join the soon to be expected retaliation. Briseventy9 (talk) 08:27, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

Typo correction request

I can’t edit the page, but there’s a typo. In the 3rd paragraph it says “ The majority of Palestinians in the Gaza Strip are descendants of refugees who fled or were expelledfrom what is know Israel during the 1948 Arab-Israeli War. “ this should rather be “ The majority of Palestinians in the Gaza Strip are descendants of refugees who fled or were expelled from what is now Israel during the 1948 Arab-Israeli War. “ It’s a small change, but the “know” should be “now” 2600:1017:B8C7:7777:1096:9CDC:DD93:11B3 (talk) 15:44, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

typo correction

"what is know Israel" should be "what is now Israel" 206.45.140.128 (talk) 16:16, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

"Strip" vs "Gaza Strip"

I think to be consistent, instances of "Strip" should be changed to "Gaza Strip" e.g. "The Strip is 41 km...". 99.35.20.39 (talk) 08:00, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

@99.35.20.39 There is a significant difference between Gaza and the Gaza Strip.Gaza is one side, and surrounding Gaza/Gaza Strip, it is under Israeli control. Shalom67 (talk) 09:06, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 9 October 2023

Two small edit requests:

1) In the following sentence from paragraph 5 in the first section, please replace the initial indefinite article ("An") with the definite article ("The"), because this buffer has just been mentioned / described; the indefinite article is therefore confusing.

So, "An extensive Israeli buffer zone within the Strip renders much land off-limits to Gaza's Palestinians"

should instead be rendered

"The extensive Israeli buffer zone within the Strip renders much land off-limits to Gaza's Palestinians"

2) In the same sentence, please replace "Palestinians" with ""Inhabitants," because in this case that is the more accurate, inclusive, neutral, and unambiguous term.

Thank you for the hard work! timbo (talk) 21:33, 9 October 2023 (UTC)

Ethnicity = Palestinian???

How can ethnicity be listed as Palestinian? There needs to be clarity on the lineage of such a people. My understanding is that they are Arabs from the neighbouring countries, displaced in 1948 and not accepted by the surrounding Arab countries. They aren’t an historic ethnicity but rather a group of refugees. 81.102.206.144 (talk) 21:37, 9 October 2023 (UTC)

The Christians among them are possibly not Arabs. Maronites and (I think) Melkites claim to be pre-Arab, possibly Phonecian.142.163.195.205 (talk) 01:06, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

Being ethnolinguistically categorised as Arab does not mean the Palestinians are from neighbouring countries, and that's definitely not the history. Iskandar323 (talk) 03:52, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

"exclave"?

it's not really an exclave is it? That would imply that the West Bank is the 'real' country, and the GS outside of it. 142.163.195.205 (talk) 01:05, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 10 October 2023

An edit needs to be made to the population according to the Palestinian Central Bureau of Statistics the current population of the Gaza Strip is 2,226,544 inhabitants. QuinnZ23 (talk) 22:55, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

 Not done for now: I don't see where in the source the exact figure is. The only figure for total population I see is "2.23 million". Andumé (talk) 01:13, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

misrepresented source

The Oslo Accord permits Israel to control the airspaceand sea space, though the Accords also stipulated the Palestinians could have their own airport inside the Strip, which Israel has since then prevented from happening.

in the main article it cites a source which then provides no information on Israel preventing the construction on the airport.

reference to Isreal preventing construction should be correctly cited or removed ManicD101 (talk) 23:04, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

Extended-protected edit request on 12 October 2023

In the lead, please change "It is one of the two Palestinian territories, alongside the West Bank" to "It is one of the two Palestinian territories, together with the West Bank." It is not alongside the West Bank, they are on opposite sides of Israel. 2001:BB6:47ED:FA58:84D0:8B89:A176:6AFE (talk) 14:41, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

Incorrect Phrase

The article says "It is one of the two Palestinian territories, alongside the West Bank." It is _not_ alongside the West Bank. They are in completely different areas. It should say "It is one of the two Palestinian territories, along with the West Bank." That would mean that both are included in the list of territories. RandyKaempen (talk) 23:02, 12 October 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 13 October 2023

Change “Rami Hamdallah became the coalition's Prime Minister and has planned for elections in Gaza and the West Bank” to “Rami Hamdallah became the coalition's Prime Minister and had planned for elections in Gaza and the West Bank.” Abbyjedele (talk) 03:45, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

 Done CMD (talk) 04:02, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 13 October 2023 (2)

The blockade of Gaza as the reason for the poverty and low standard of living of the Gaza residents. The oppression and poverty of the Palestinians living is Gaza is due to Hamas, not Israel. The purpose of the blockade is to prevent weapons and materials used for weapons from reaching the terrorist group Hamas, which has administered Gaza since 2007. Hamas has co-opted millions of dollars in aid and materials for infrastructure to convert to buying and making weapons to use against Israel. Food, fuel and medical supplies are freely provided by Israel, however, Hamas restricts the importation of the majority of these items. Water and electricity are supplied by Israel for free. Thousands of Gaza residents are given work permits to travel to and from Israel on a daily basis. Zypzzz (talk) 06:07, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. CMD (talk) 06:40, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

Great March of Return

The Great March of Return was a pivotal moment in the history of the Gaza strip and has been dealt with adequately in the body, I fail to see why it was removed from the lede (which is a summary of the body), to which no reason was given @Vice regent:. Makeandtoss (talk) 12:14, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

Ok I didn't realize that. But please add it with the why it was significant and what it represented, all in one sentence. VR _talk 12:42, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

@Vice regent: Done. Makeandtoss (talk) 13:00, 13 October 2023 (UTC)