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*'''Delete or redirect to [[Lists of centenarians]]''' As commented above, those 5 sources are mirrors of each other, and 4 of them are local newspapers. Fails [[WP:BASIC]]. --[[User:Enric Naval|Enric Naval]] ([[User talk:Enric Naval|talk]]) 16:25, 9 November 2010 (UTC)
*'''Delete or redirect to [[Lists of centenarians]]''' As commented above, those 5 sources are mirrors of each other, and 4 of them are local newspapers. Fails [[WP:BASIC]]. --[[User:Enric Naval|Enric Naval]] ([[User talk:Enric Naval|talk]]) 16:25, 9 November 2010 (UTC)


*'''Delete'''; just being the oldest person in a country isn't notable enough, and I note the paucity of non-mirrored sources. I'm not seeing how it even meets [[WP:BASIC]], and the hounding by certain keep voters isn't helping their cause. [[User:The Blade of the Northern Lights|The Blade of the Northern Lights]] ([[User talk:The Blade of the Northern Lights|<font face="MS Mincho" color="black">話して下さい</font>]]) 17:43, 9 November 2010 (UTC)
*'''Delete'''; just being the oldest person in a country isn't notable enough, and I note the paucity of non-mirrored sources. I'm not seeing how it even meets [[WP:BASIC]], and kicking the heat to light ratio towards the former isn't helping the "keep" cause. [[User:The Blade of the Northern Lights|The Blade of the Northern Lights]] ([[User talk:The Blade of the Northern Lights|<font face="MS Mincho" color="black">話して下さい</font>]]) 17:43, 9 November 2010 (UTC)


===Summarization of comments without nonsense===
===Summarization of comments without nonsense===

Revision as of 17:45, 9 November 2010

See also, #Summarization of comments without nonsense

Jan Goossenaerts

Jan Goossenaerts (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log) • Afd statistics
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He's not notable because he's the oldest person in the country. Fails WP:GNG. — Timneu22 · talk 16:00, 3 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

There were articles about him before he became a supercentenarian, so don't talk about one event hes had coverage for his birthdays way before 110, and the other event is becoming the oldest man in the continent. Longevitydude (talk) 19:44, 3 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
How is Being the oldest any less notable then being the tallest, shortest, or heaviest? their all in guinness world records Longevitydude (talk) 19:46, 3 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Guinness is a reliable source. But it is not a guarantor of notability. Guinness has its standards for notability. We have ours. They are not coterminous. The tallest, shortest or heaviest person ever might be notable for our purposes. The current tallest, shortest or heaviest person in Europe? Not so much. David in DC (talk) 20:07, 3 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
If notability is lost when people die, then Michael Jackson isn't notable either.Ryoung122 23:59, 6 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete I believe there's no policy or guideline that decrees that being the oldest man in (or perhaps on) a continent is, per se, notable. I've occasionally believed six impossible things before breakfast, so I could be wrong. If I am, please show me where to look. (Interesting, but probably not dispositive, is the fact that one of the "impossible things" in the White Queen's oration to Alice is a claim to be a centenarian.)
We edit articles one at a time hereabouts, so I'm not sure that "...if thats your reason for this afd, then youll have to make a lot more, because a lot of people have articles for being the oldest person/man in a country" is particularly relevant. One need not delete speedily if an article about a living person doesn't include unsourced derogatory information, and I don't think anyone's contending that a longevity claim is derogatory, so we've got an eternity to deal with these other pages.
I'm inclined to agree that the quoted language from the centenarian list ought to apply to super-centenarians (and even super-duper-centenarians), as well. But we need not reach that far to resolve this case. All we need do is determine if being the oldest man in Europe, absent any other special, reliable, verifiable characteristics or achievements, is sufficiently notable to warrant an article on en.wikipedia. Per nom, I think not. David in DC (talk) 19:49, 3 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comment. I think this article and any others like it, including the links provided from other AfDs above, should be deleted without a redirect, and the name of the person (and any one- or two-sentence blurb about them) should be on the list page. I think we need a policy for this type of person, who is clearly not otherwise notable. Let the person be searched for in some results, but no reason to keep a redirect to the page. — Timneu22 · talk 11:39, 4 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • Keep: The nom's very much in error. The text of the GNG is "If a topic has received significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject, it is presumed to satisfy the inclusion criteria for a stand-alone article." Supercentenarians provoke a LOT of articles and news stories about them. Want to bet I can't find at least several articles in reliable sources about him? He's only the fifth living male supercentenarian in the world. Heck, he only has to make it a few more months to crack the top 100 of the oldest verified men in recorded history. That's not notable?  RGTraynor  18:50, 4 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • Comment: RGTraynor has a good point about WP:GNG, in his second sentence above. However, I think it's answered in the last bullet of that policy: "Presumed" means that significant coverage in reliable sources establishes a presumption, not a guarantee, that a subject is suitable for inclusion. Editors may reach a consensus that although a topic meets this criterion, it is not appropriate for a stand-alone article. For example, such an article may violate what Wikipedia is not.David in DC (talk) 20:21, 4 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The problem is YOU. You have been campaigning against articles on supercentenarians, using smear tactics (you say I don't understand statistics, but you are the one that believes in 950-year-olds), recruiting Grismaldo and Itsmejudith time and again.
How about some FACTS:
1. The WOP does NOT give out titles such as "oldest in Europe." However, that can be referenced to NEWS sources (whether true or not...Wikipedia standards are verifiability, not truth).
2. Notability isn't established by your opinion, it's established by outside sources.
3. "Longevity cruft" is a POV-pejorative. Scientists study longevity, including supercentenarians, and the media covers them.
4. I actually agreed with five of the seven articles you listed for deletion. The List of Oldest Living Men should have been kept (4-3 in favor of keep), as well as "Oldest veterans." That you are pushing to delete generalized lists shows your problems with this run deeper than just whether this man is individually notable or not.Ryoung122 00:33, 7 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

(JJB continues comments hidden by Ryoung122's WP:TALK violation:) While this is not the typical situation of WP:SPAs voting, WP:WOP has been documented as suffering from views contrary to WP basics in very similar (but much more entrenched) ways. Longevitydude and SiameseTurtle are WP:WOP members and Brendanology and Petervermaelen meet the basic criteria of WOP SPAs. I will now notify the two FTN editors and the WP:WOP talk page. JJB 20:22, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

Siamese Turtle is a lot brilliant than you, JJ. It is actually YOUR views, not our views, that are contrary to science. Since you have ZERO chance of succeeding with your religious arguments in the scientific field, you have chosen to bully teens (like LongevityDude, Brendanology, and Nick Ornstein) and push your POV bias on Wikipedia, where "anyone can edit"...including complete idiots.Ryoung122 00:36, 7 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

(JJB picks up again:) My additional factors: "Oldest verified" excludes a large number of unverified European supercentenarian longevity claims as if GWR verification is the only POV necessary, when in fact many parts of the world simply do not have a way of documenting most of their people to GWR standards. Similarly, the solicitation that we join Yahoo WOP in order to verify hidden webcruft is plainly anti-WP; WP:V requires that any citations to Yahoo WOP can be tagged to "request quotation", and there are a junkyardful of such citations in the topic articles. Further, one reason these newspapers are so convenient so quickly, yet without translation, is that WP:WOP and GRG are very often primary sources for such articles and know of their placement ahead of time: note "according to gerontologists" in first article and the very name GRG in the next three, each of which refer to "80 supercentenarians" (verified, living); compare list of living supercentenarians, what a coincidence that WP editors and "gerontologists" agree so closely, maybe they are the same people? So the first four articles are all really the same article, only the fifth seems to have some independent material, and the reliance on videos above further demonstrates the GNG failure. David's later comments about WP:WOP are right on target, and then Longevitydude admits the conflatability WP:WOP and GRG, and the accessibility of WP to GRG, by saying "you dont see the GRG making afds". Thus not only are the arguments a failure, they are carried out by multiple COI edits. The closer had better not wimp out with "NCDK". JJB 20:57, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

More false charges and attempted intimidation. Jan Goosenaerts's articles are NOT sourced from the GRG or from the WOP. They come from Belgium.
But more than that, you should stick to your own arguments. Saying that the other people's arguments are a "failure" is POV bias at least.
But more than that, this statement crosses the line of acceptability:
The closer had better not wimp out with "NCDK".
Excuse you, please get off your high horse. You are not "God". Now you are attempting to intimidate the closer's decision about this debate. That's unconscionable.
Do you consider the effect of your actions on others? You are pushing non-scientific POV's on a general encyclopedia that lots of kids read. Wikipedia is NOT a political campaign. Go back to AlterNetDaily. Speaking of "fringe," it's called "alter" net because it supports fringe views, like yours.Ryoung122 00:43, 7 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete - Being the oldest person in a country does not guarantee notability. This is one of many trivial entries here that relate to human longevity that ought to get the axe. It is pure trivia and the obsession of a group of hobbyists, but there is nothing encyclopedic about it.Griswaldo (talk) 21:17, 5 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - Since it seems like common outcomes of these types of articles is to delete, as indicated by the Oldest People talk page, why would this one be different? I'm not talking about WP:OTHERSTUFF here, I'm talking about common outcomes. We really need a policy for this type of article. — Timneu22 · talk 22:49, 5 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • Comment While I fully agree, that's a discussion for another, as yet created, page. Here, we're just called upon to decide if Jan Goossenaerts is notable. Once we're done (or contemporaneously if someone is so moved,) someone can propose an addition to WP:OUTCOMES. This page is about one tree. The forest can and should be considered by a larger part of the community, in a more visible way than a single AfD about the oldest man on (or perhaps in) Europe. David in DC (talk) 23:26, 5 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete - Possessing a superlative trait (eg oldest man, tallest human, etc.) is not a concept of notability of itself because that is just a happenstance for that person at the time and place of interest and who else living or dead has been there. This is not to say that this trait cannot lead to other notable facets, which Walter Breuning (mostly) demostrates - his age led him to become notable, but that was, in part, due to living in America as opposed to other areas of the world where media coverage is zero to nil (eg the middle of rural China) but also from having done some somewhat notable aspects during his life. Jan G. here doesn't seem to have any of that reported in secondary sources, so this is just a happenstance. --MASEM (t) 22:56, 5 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete Simply being very old does not make one notable. WP:NOTNEWS and WP:BLP1E both certainly apply here. Resolute 00:56, 6 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete. He's old. We got it. We also dont give a fuck. Not notable per everyone. Carolyn Baker III (talk) 04:04, 6 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep because he has significant independent coverage in multiple reliable sources and so meets the WP:GNG, and WP:BLP1E doesn't apply because there is no "event". Thparkth (talk) 12:23, 6 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Thparkth. First off, awesome user name dude. I didn't figure it out unti I tried to type it out. Then all wath revealed. On to business, please review JJB's earlier explanation of why four of the 5 sources are all mirrirs of one another. In pertinent part, he says: "[O]ne reason these newspapers are so convenient so quickly, yet without translation, is that WP:WOP and GRG are very often primary sources for such articles and know of their placement ahead of time: note "according to gerontologists" in first article and the very name GRG in the next three, each of which refer to "80 supercentenarians" (verified, living); compare list of living supercentenarians, what a coincidence that WP editors and "gerontologists" agree so closely, maybe they are the same people? So the first four articles are all really the same article, only the fifth seems to have some independent material, and the reliance on videos above further demonstrates the GNG failure."David in DC (talk) 21:31, 6 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • In my opinion, the key point is that four different reliable sources have taken the editorial decision to run this story - and that creates a presumption of notability for me. (The fifth source, somewhat confusingly, appears to be a political party.) Thparkth (talk) 21:48, 6 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

In response to what someone said earlier, nothing makes a side look weak like attacking the person instead of the arguement, or cussing, something to think about. Longevitydude (talk) 19:59, 6 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • Umm, as I've said, reasonable editors can differ about whether the presumption set up by the first several bullets of WP:GNG control or whether the final bullet of WP:GNG, setting up the terms for rebutting the presumption, controls. But we're talking about the same guideline. Neither view violates WP:NPOV. David in DC (talk) 23:55, 6 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • It appears that you wish to determine this matter based upon your own POV as to whether extreme age is notable. This is unacceptable as you are not a reliable source - you are just a random passerby with no special standing. The point of the guideline is to determine such matters by reference to independent third parties rather than taking a poll of whoever shows up at AFD. Your position violates multiple policies including WP:NOR, WP:NPOV and WP:CENSOR. Colonel Warden (talk) 00:04, 7 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • I fail to see the RS argument here. These sources are virtually mirrors of one another, which another editor has pointed out above. Also, trivia is published in newspapers in various forms and at various times to make the readers feel all warm and cozy inside but that's not what an encyclopedia does. Wikipedia is not a newspaper, and certainly not the society section of one. I don't see your position as any less of an opinion than that of David. Cheers.Griswaldo (talk) 02:39, 7 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Respectable newspapers are commonly used as sources on Wikipedia and are quite satisfactory for establishing notability because their professional status and reputation indicate the independent and reliable nature of the interest in the topic. In this case, they include Gazet van Antwerpen and De Standaard which seem quite adequate for our purposes. The opinions of individual editors here are quite worthless by comparison and there is not the slightest policy basis for accepting them instead. AFD is not a vote and editors are expected to bring evidence to the discussion, not their personal opinions. Colonel Warden (talk) 12:36, 7 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Good ah point Colonel. I am going to think about re-evaluating my opinion now. I see the loggic in this, Thank you, Carolyn Baker III (talk) 00:13, 7 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Keep or Merge.

I see several problems/issues with the "deletionist" arguments.

1. Notability is established by outside sources, not your personal opinion (Carolyn).

2. Some have said that persons cannot be notable for "old age" alone.

Yet if we run a Google search on news for "Eugenie Blanchard" we get more than 600 main articles in English, as well as other languages. So, that's a false argument.

Instead, the argument should be: "at what point does someone become notable for age"?

3. "Notability is not temporary." This is a poor argument. That is used for incidental, one-cycle news reports. But someone who is the "oldest man" in their nation, they have the title every day. And when they die, they are recorded as the titleholder. That's not temporary.

Do we say that, since George Kell won a batting title decades ago, he was notable in 1949 but not now? Also, we have every major league baseball player ever listed as "notable," coverage or not.Ryoung122 23:52, 6 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment Those that argue that this passes the GNG need to show that significant coverage in secondary sources has been met. There is coverage, and there are sources, but that coverage is not significant (I would expect a bio and what contributions he has made to society, for example), and the sources are not secondary (they are third-party, sufficient for WP:V, but give no insight, analysis, or synthesis that one would expect from secondary sources; the articles simply say "he's old, he lives here". --MASEM (t) 14:00, 7 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Summarization of comments without nonsense

When you take out all the off-topic remarks and poor accusations from both sides, the AfD looks like this: — Timneu22 · talk 14:15, 7 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I think the now collapsed summary deserves praise. Although he's usually an obstreporous dolt, I find that, this time, I agree with this guy. David in DC (talk) 17:51, 8 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Context-removing, repetitive, and dated summary collapsed by JJB

Nomination: He's not notable because he's the oldest person in the country. Fails WP:GNG. — Timneu22 · talk 16:00, 3 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • Delete couldn't find anything of use in google news. Secret account 16:49, 3 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep hes a supercentenarian, and hes been the oldest man in the country for years, and if thats your reason for this afd, then youll have to make a lot more, because a lot of people have articles for being the oldest person/man in a country. Longevitydude (talk) 18:12, 3 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete. The logic for inclusion is faulty. Someday--perhaps very soon--this man will die. He will then no longer be the oldest person within a given geographical area. What will be the justification for the article THEN? The even less notable "He USED to be the oldest person within a given geographical area"? Or "Here lie the bones of a guy who was briefly non-notable for being the oldest person in a geographical area"? He is not sufficiently notable now, and the moment he dies he becomes completely non-notable. Let's not wait till then. Let's delete it now, because we're only going to have to delete it later. True notability is not something that expires with death. Qworty (talk) 19:34, 3 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete I believe there's no policy or guideline that decrees that being the oldest man in (or perhaps on) a continent is, per se, notable. I've occasionally believed six impossible things before breakfast, so I could be wrong. If I am, please show me where to look. (Interesting, but probably not dispositive, is the fact that one of the "impossible things" in the White Queen's oration to Alice is a claim to be a centenarian.)
  • Commment: I know we've had lots of AfDs on supercentenarians before, as we have tons of articles on them, so the nomination by itself doesn't tell me why we should delete this one over any other one. E.g., Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Martha Graham (supercentenarian). If not kept, the content needs to be merged into an article such as List of American supercentenarians, as was done in the case of Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Thomas Nelson (supercentenarian). In this case it would be List of European supercentenarians--Milowent • talkblp-r 21:35, 3 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Redirect to List of Belgian supercentenarians. He's gotten written up in newspapers,[8][9][10][11] but all they really say is, other than him being the oldest European man, that he's fairly healthy, and has some children and grandchildren. Clarityfiend (talk) 02:37, 4 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete because he just recently became a supercentenarian. He isn't like Frederica Sagor Maas, who, now validated, has been recognized by other sources rather than just her nearby/local newspaper. --Nick Ornstein (talk) 15:39, 4 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep because male supercentenarians are already very rare Petervermaelen 18:47, 4 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep: The nom's very much in error. The text of the GNG is "If a topic has received significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject, it is presumed to satisfy the inclusion criteria for a stand-alone article." Supercentenarians provoke a LOT of articles and news stories about them. Want to bet I can't find at least several articles in reliable sources about him? He's only the fifth living male supercentenarian in the world. Heck, he only has to make it a few more months to crack the top 100 of the oldest verified men in recorded history. That's not notable?  RGTraynor  18:50, 4 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • Comment: RGTraynor has a good point about WP:GNG, in his second sentence above. However, I think it's answered in the last bullet of that policy: "Presumed" means that significant coverage in reliable sources establishes a presumption, not a guarantee, that a subject is suitable for inclusion. Editors may reach a consensus that although a topic meets this criterion, it is not appropriate for a stand-alone article. For example, such an article may violate what Wikipedia is not.David in DC (talk) 20:21, 4 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep/Merge The article has the potential to meet Wikipedia standards if reliable sources are used - they do exist. As it stands, the article is very poor. I think nominating the article for deletion a mere 20 minutes after its creation has not helped the matter. If the article isn't improved, then I would have to say redirect to List of Belgian supercentenarians until the article meets Wikipedia standards. SiameseTurtle (talk) 14:08, 5 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • The problem is the article was never given a chance to be improved, if supercentenarians are not notable, they why do so many people think so, who is anyone to tell us what we should consider notable, all we do is ask others to respect our views on what we consider notable, we don't make afds on what you consider notable, so please don't do it to us. Longevitydude (talk) 14:21, 5 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • OK, im calm now, but seriously, five refs, I know there have been more in the past that just cant be found, but still, thats a reasonable amount, but learn to have respect for other peoples opinions of notability, you dont see the GRG making afds for stuff that you think is notable that they dont care about, is a little consideration too much to ask? Longevitydude (talk) 15:27, 5 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep/Merge per SimaeseTurtle. It looks like the general notability guideline is met, unless someone can explain how WP:BASIC indicates it does not meet notability. --Bsherr (talk) 16:26, 5 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong delete or redirect if there ever was one. The assumption of WP:WOP is that having turned 110 and held a regional title, which is conferred basically by Yahoo WOP, which contains a vast membership overlap with WP:WOP, makes one notable. No, it makes one notable for line-item inclusion in lists. Goossenaerts is already in five WP lists, with which a "bio" article (what bio?) would be wholly redundant (there is nothing to merge!). My basic view is that a supercentenarian becomes article-notable (not at age 110 but) when there is enough interest in something other about her or him than just being 110 (otherwise, via WP:BLP1E, they should be redirected to a base list, i.e., list of living supercentenarians). There are many more problems that do not have time or place for discussion now, but some of them appear at WP:FTN#Longevity-cruft, WP:COIN#User:Ryoung122 on Longevity myths, and Wikipedia:Mediation Cabal/Cases/2010-01-04/Longevity myths.
  • Delete - Being the oldest person in a country does not guarantee notability. This is one of many trivial entries here that relate to human longevity that ought to get the axe. It is pure trivia and the obsession of a group of hobbyists, but there is nothing encyclopedic about it.Griswaldo (talk) 21:17, 5 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - Since it seems like common outcomes of these types of articles is to delete, as indicated by the Oldest People talk page, why would this one be different? I'm not talking about WP:OTHERSTUFF here, I'm talking about common outcomes. We really need a policy for this type of article. — Timneu22 · talk 22:49, 5 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • Comment While I fully agree, that's a discussion for another, as yet created, page. Here, we're just called upon to decide if Jan Goossenaerts is notable. Once we're done (or contemporaneously if someone is so moved,) someone can propose an addition to WP:OUTCOMES. This page is about one tree. The forest can and should be considered by a larger part of the community, in a more visible way than a single AfD about the oldest man on (or perhaps in) Europe. David in DC (talk) 23:26, 5 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete - Possessing a superlative trait (eg oldest man, tallest human, etc.) is not a concept of notability of itself because that is just a happenstance for that person at the time and place of interest and who else living or dead has been there. This is not to say that this trait cannot lead to other notable facets, which Walter Breuning (mostly) demostrates - his age led him to become notable, but that was, in part, due to living in America as opposed to other areas of the world where media coverage is zero to nil (eg the middle of rural China) but also from having done some somewhat notable aspects during his life. Jan G. here doesn't seem to have any of that reported in secondary sources, so this is just a happenstance. --MASEM (t) 22:56, 5 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete Simply being very old does not make one notable. WP:NOTNEWS and WP:BLP1E both certainly apply here. Resolute 00:56, 6 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete. He's old. We got it. We also dont give a fuck. Not notable per everyone. Carolyn Baker III (talk) 04:04, 6 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep because he has significant independent coverage in multiple reliable sources and so meets the WP:GNG, and WP:BLP1E doesn't apply because there is no "event". Thparkth (talk) 12:23, 6 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Thparkth, please review JJB's earlier explanation of why four of the 5 sources are all mirrirs of one another. In pertinent part, he says: "[O]ne reason these newspapers are so convenient so quickly, yet without translation, is that WP:WOP and GRG are very often primary sources for such articles and know of their placement ahead of time: note "according to gerontologists" in first article and the very name GRG in the next three, each of which refer to "80 supercentenarians" (verified, living); compare list of living supercentenarians, what a coincidence that WP editors and "gerontologists" agree so closely, maybe they are the same people? So the first four articles are all really the same article, only the fifth seems to have some independent material, and the reliance on videos above further demonstrates the GNG failure."David in DC (talk) 21:31, 6 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • In my opinion, the key point is that four different reliable sources have taken the editorial decision to run this story - and that creates a presumption of notability for me. (The fifth source, somewhat confusingly, appears to be a political party.) Thparkth (talk) 21:48, 6 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Umm, as I've said, reasonable editors can differ about whether the presumption set up by the first several bullets of WP:GNG control or whether the final bullet of WP:GNG, setting up the terms for rebutting the presumption, controls. But we're talking about the same guideline. Neither view violates WP:NPOV. David in DC (talk) 23:55, 6 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • It appears that you wish to determine this matter based upon your own POV as to whether extreme age is notable. This is unacceptable as you are not a reliable source - you are just a random passerby with no special standing. The point of the guideline is to determine such matters by reference to independent third parties rather than taking a poll of whoever shows up at AFD. Your position violates multiple policies including WP:NOR, WP:NPOV and WP:CENSOR. Colonel Warden (talk) 00:04, 7 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • I fail to see the RS argument here. These sources are virtually mirrors of one another, which another editor has pointed out above. Also, trivia is published in newspapers in various forms and at various times to make the readers feel all warm and cozy inside but that's not what an encyclopedia does. Wikipedia is not a newspaper, and certainly not the society section of one. I don't see your position as any less of an opinion than that of David. Cheers.Griswaldo (talk) 02:39, 7 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Respectable newspapers are commonly used as sources on Wikipedia and are quite satisfactory for establishing notability because their professional status and reputation indicate the independent and reliable nature of the interest in the topic. In this case, they include Gazet van Antwerpen and De Standaard which seem quite adequate for our purposes. The opinions of individual editors here are quite worthless by comparison and there is not the slightest policy basis for accepting them instead. AFD is not a vote and editors are expected to bring evidence to the discussion, not their personal opinions. Colonel Warden (talk) 12:36, 7 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Good ah point Colonel. I am going to think about re-evaluating my opinion now. I see the loggic in this, Thank you, Carolyn Baker III (talk) 00:13, 7 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep or Merge. I see several problems/issues with the "deletionist" arguments.
    1. Notability is established by outside sources, not your personal opinion (Carolyn).
    2. Some have said that persons cannot be notable for "old age" alone. Yet if we run a Google search on news for "Eugenie Blanchard" we get more than 600 main articles in English, as well as other languages. So, that's a false argument. Instead, the argument should be: "at what point does someone become notable for age"?
    3. "Notability is not temporary." This is a poor argument. That is used for incidental, one-cycle news reports. But someone who is the "oldest man" in their nation, they have the title every day. And when they die, they are recorded as the titleholder. That's not temporary.
  • Do we say that, since George Kell won a batting title decades ago, he was notable in 1949 but not now? Also, we have every major league baseball player ever listed as "notable," coverage or not.Ryoung122 23:52, 6 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Weak keep- Notability is measured entirely by the sources. Enough reliable, secondary sources that discuss the subject in detail enable an article to be written. Now, this guy probably comes in at the low end of the coverage but it's OK in my opinion. That said, three of the sources are nearly identical copies of each other. Reyk YO! 00:20, 7 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep This guy scrapes the criteria, but scrape it still is. Brendan (talk, contribs) 03:28, 7 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment Those that argue that this passes the GNG need to show that significant coverage in secondary sources has been met. There is coverage, and there are sources, but that coverage is not significant (I would expect a bio and what contributions he has made to society, for example), and the sources are not secondary (they are third-party, sufficient for WP:V, but give no insight, analysis, or synthesis that one would expect from secondary sources; the articles simply say "he's old, he lives here". --MASEM (t) 14:00, 7 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion continues

  • Keep.for respect for him. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.227.30.79 (talk) 20:39, 7 November 2010 (UTC) This template must be substituted.[reply]
  • Comment: The above two are evidence of WP:CANVASSING. A previous serious charge of canvassing from a private list in a similar (merge) discussion occurs here. (I have also been accused of canvassing via a statement above, but the difference is that I informed everyone I was doing it and I notified two editors on one side and one workgroup on the other side.) JJB 20:48, 7 November 2010 (UTC)
    • Comment. I have no idea who those anonymous edits are from. That said, canvassing ON-WIKI is a violation of Wiki rules and within Wiki-jurisdiction. Posting material on a third-party site is not...it's outside Wikipedia. But in any case, that was a post regarding Longevity myths, not Jan Goosenaerts.76.17.118.157 (talk) 01:03, 8 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
      • I'm going to assume 76.17 is Ryoung122 due to style without trying to remember which IPs he uses regularly, and I will accordingly accept this as an admission of the former canvass on the merge discussion and an attempted denial of canvassing in this discussion; so I am striking my charge. JJB 12:50, 8 November 2010 (UTC)
  • Delete. Someone can be notable simply for being very old, in which case there will be plenty of coverage in the media. In this case there is only a small amount of coverage. If in time there is more coverage then the article can be re-created. Itsmejudith (talk) 21:10, 7 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. WP:GNG should control, not sentiment or WP:CRUFTCRUFT. I respect arguments that the existing cited coverage is not significant, but I disagree with them; the cites provide enough material to source a passable article from, which seems to me the most natural standard to use. —chaos5023 (talk) 02:45, 8 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment Yes, the article is quite short, but I can see great potential for it to be improved. It is, in any case, a tad too long for a merged section as it has more information than any of the other living Belgian supercentenarians. Brendan (talk, contribs) 07:17, 8 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Another summary: Deletion/merge arguments:
    • WP:BASIC, as all articles but one arise from one insubstantial GRG-quoting nonindependent wire copy.
    • WP:IINFO: citing what people eat for breakfast is generally an indicator of nonnotability.
    • Trivial intersection (compare): [oldest] [living] [verified] [male] [in-continent]. Previous merge consensus.
    • Significant WP:BIAS against several living Europeans who claim to be 110 but happen to lack three proximate documents.
    • Notability misstated, as we are told repeatedly "oldest" (which is disputed by above unverifieds) instead of "oldest verified".
    • No consistent WP:OUTCOMES formed by workgroup yet (line-item notability, thus merge, would be consistent).
    • Merge/redir is better consensus, allowed by Brendanology, Bsherr, Clarityfiend, Ryoung122, SiameseTurtle, and deleters.
    • Rebuttable presumption: "still doesn't seem notable given the sources" is valid consensus.
    • WP:CRYSTAL, as several argue that he will definitely become more notable. Call us when so.
    • WP:V, as we've been directed to inaccessible Yahoo WOP as a source.
    • WP:NOTNEWS speaks for itself.
    • WP:COI, WP:WALLEDGARDEN, WP:NPA, WP:CIVIL, WP:SPA.
  • Retention arguments:
    • WP:IHN; but if unsourced it would be an automatic delete, so it fails that.
    • WP:GNG; but of 5 links in article, 3 are identical, 1 is mirror, 1 is questionable.
    • Not one event; but coverage prior to 110 is only local Belgian, i.e., not continentally notable.
    • WP:RS exist; but it is the WP:BURDEN of the claimants to insert.
    • Such an astonishing variety of trivial illogic as to be left as an exercise for the reader. JJB 14:42, 8 November 2010 (UTC)
    Y'know, there's enough valid consensus in favor of a delete that you really didn't have to construct such a violently slanted "summary", and in my eyes doing so damages your position. I'm particularly unimpressed by the grasping at straws in dismissing sources that are merely "local Belgian". There's some consensus that "local news" sources generate lesser weight toward notability, but that consensus is in regard to e.g. community newspapers of Pothole, Idaho, not Belgium. —chaos5023 (talk) 16:18, 8 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete/Merge no inherent notability in age.--TM 14:58, 8 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • I think some of the editors who want to delete this article are bias and assume bad faith, and I suspect meat, not sock, puppetry with JJB and a few of the others who want this article gone. Longevitydude (talk) 15:23, 8 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
It is funny that you would accuse me of being a meatpuppet when I have been on Wikipedia approximately 3.5 years longer than you. Grow up and stop insulting others and accusing them of bad faith because this article was nominated for deletion.--TM 04:43, 9 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Sir, at least im grown up enough not to be using foul language, and the reasons for deletion don't sound like good faith, and neither does making an afd for a less than 20 minute old article. Longevitydude (talk) 15:55, 9 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
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