Talk:Genetically modified food

Template:WAP assignment

proposal for consensus statement

The closer said we should be able to get consensus with a minor tweak. Let's go slow. Tsavage, above you made a big deal out of "as safe as" vs "as risky as". So how about, this toned down a bit version?

• "The scientific consensus holds that eating currently marketed GM food poses no greater health risk than does eating conventional food. Minority views hold that there is some risk" Jytdog (talk) 00:03, 31 July 2015 (UTC)

The "scientific consensus" needs MEDRS sourcing - it has none. petrarchan47คุก 03:56, 31 July 2015 (UTC)

@Jytdog: The minor tweak begins with removing "scientific consensus" - you have never directly addressed WP:RS/AC, which has been brought up many many times. You can interpret the various evidence - in theory no greater risk from GE; no documented harm so far - as scientific consensus for general GM food safety if you like, but there is no direct source for it, so that's SYNTH/OR. And the inaccurate, incomplete Regulation section that has the US information sourced to Monsanto, has to be fixed to be referenced in a "currently marketed" type statement - regulation determines what's (legally) on the market. --Tsavage (talk) 08:43, 31 July 2015 (UTC)

Removing "scientific consensus" would be a major change, not a minor tweak. Jytdog (talk) 10:27, 31 July 2015 (UTC)

The "scientific consensus" is, if for anything, that there is no greater risk inherent in genetic engineering than in conventional breeding - if you wish to keep "scientific consensus" then try amending the rest of the statement. I consider minor tweak to be changing a few words while maintaining exactly the same factual meaning. You seem to want to add the additional impact of a politically-loaded phrasing - "scientific consensus" - to summarize a set of evidence that can be communicated otherwise. You want to interpret WP:PAG however it suits you, liberally citing WP:FRINGE, which attempts to clarify core content policy for specific situations, while ignoring WP:RS/AC, which in the same way clarifies those core policies specifically for the use of "scientific consensus." --Tsavage (talk) 11:42, 31 July 2015 (UTC)

• Again, with sources:
  • "The scientific consensus holds that eating currently marketed GM food poses no greater health risk than does eating conventional food. Minority views hold that there is some risk."

References

Jytdog (talk) 00:03, 31 July 2015 (UTC)

Incrementally better, but your "scientific consensus" is still unsupported, and still attributed to a mess of citations, instead of a single RS source per WP:RS/AC, perhaps with a second example of the same.

You persist in leading with the AAAS source, despite its rejection by several editors. It does not contain the required wording, it is not a review of scientific evidence, and AAAS is a general science advocacy organization and journal publisher, with membership open to scientists and non-scientists alike. Also, a similarly worded version of the most relevant portion of the AAAS statement appears without attribution in Monsanto's own voice:

"Governmental regulatory agencies, scientific organizations and leading health associations worldwide agree that food grown from GM crops is safe to eat. The World Health Organization, the American Medical Association, the U.S. National Academy of Sciences, the British Royal Society, among others that have examined the evidence, all come to the same conclusion: consuming foods containing ingredients derived from GM crops is safe to eat and no riskier than consuming the same foods containing ingredi¬ents from crop plants modified by conventional plant improvement techniques (i.e. plant breeding)." Monsanto: Commonly Asked Questions about the Food Safety of GMOs

Monsanto mentions the AAAS as being against GMO labeling, and links to the AAAS anti-labeling statement as a third-party resource, while the preceding excerpt, unlike other quoted statements in that FAQ, is not attributed. Here is the equivalent statement from the AAAS release:

"the World Health Organization, the American Medical Association, the U.S. National Academy of Sciences, the British Royal Society, and every other respected organization that has examined the evidence has come to the same conclusion: consuming foods containing ingredients derived from GM crops is no riskier than consuming the same foods containing ingredients from crop plants modified by conventional plant improvement techniques."Statement by the AAAS Board of Directors On Labeling of Genetically Modified Foods

In addition to the other reasons for rejecting the AAAS as RS for the "scientific consensus" statement, it is not clear whether the AAAS is paraphrasing Monsanto PR copy, or vice versa, or whether it's just coincidentally nearly identical. You need a better source for "scientific consensus." --Tsavage (talk) 11:24, 31 July 2015 (UTC)

The rejection of the statement by the board of the AAAS and the claim that the board of the AAAS, arguably the most important nongovernmental scientific society in the US and the publisher of one of the most prestigious scientific journals in the world, is a mouthpiece for Monsanto is really FRINGEy. I'll bring this to RSN, so we can lay that to rest. Jytdog (talk) 11:57, 31 July 2015 (UTC)

which is done: Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard#Statement_by_the_board_of_the_AAAS Jytdog (talk) 12:15, 31 July 2015 (UTC)

I really think that the AAAS source shouldn't be dominating this discussion - we have a couple dozen strong sources that could support similar statements with minor rewording. I'd also comment that WT:MEDRS may be a better place for the reliability discussion.

Either way, I think this particular proposal still gives too much weight to the minority view ("minority" can be up to 49%, after all) - this would especially problematic for those readers who don't fully understand what "scientific consensus" means. Additionally, calling it a minority view in article text requires us to have sources directly calling it a minority view, per the same principles of WP:RS/AC. I wouldn't necessarily oppose anything organized along these lines, but it would need different sourcing and better qualification. Sunrise (talk) 21:21, 31 July 2015 (UTC)

I hear that, and welcome alternative proposals from anybody. Jytdog (talk) 23:05, 31 July 2015 (UTC)

@Sunrise: You say, "I think this particular proposal still gives too much weight to the minority view." You then go on to say, "Additionally, calling it a minority view in article text requires us to have sources directly calling it a minority view." Then why are you calling the Domingo article (that is WP:MEDRS quality) a minority view if there is no RS calling it a minority view? What WP:PAG are you relying on to make this claim that Domingo is a "minority" view if there is no WP:RS for this claim? If WP:RS does not claim it is a "minority" (or WP:Fringe) view, then, therefore, doesn't it make more sense to assume that it has parity with other WP:MEDRS level sources, especially since this was written by experts in the field of toxicology? David Tornheim (talk) 08:37, 2 August 2015 (UTC)

David, the difference is that we do more analysis on talk pages than we can include in articles. We're allowed to (in fact, are required to) consider source-based rationales that some sources have more weight than others. We have a minimum cutoff point, set by RS or MEDRS, but that tends to obscure the fact that reliability is a continuum. In any case, if I say "this is a minority/fringe" on a talk page, it's an abbreviation for the full form of the argument: "the sources which support this viewpoint have less weight than those that don't, from which we can infer that it is minority/fringe," where the distinction between minority and fringe depends largely on the degree of the imbalance. However, I wouldn't consider that sufficient reasoning to include the statement in an article, because e.g. the process of determining reliability and weight involves considerations that would not be acceptable for article content proposals. Sunrise (talk) 23:00, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

• I find it troubling Sunrise that you changed the wording for WP:RS/AC from "The statement that all or most scientists or scholars hold" to "The statement that many, all or most scientists or scholars hold", particularly since you are involved in this discussion which rests on this very guideline. Was this a unilateral decision to change the guideline to make it more lenient? petrarchan47คุก 05:04, 1 August 2015 (UTC) I've reverted the change, it should go through community consensus process. petrarchan47คุก 05:07, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

It seems pretty clear to me that the same principle applies. Making an edit along those lines has been on my to-do list for a long time now and this discussion reminded me of it, though on reflection I should have realized it might look like that and continued to hold off. I've opened a section there but won't pursue it further. Sunrise (talk) 05:28, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

Recap

The AAAS question at the Reliable Sources Noticeboard doesn't seem to be bringing anything new to this discussion, so hopefully editors are still around to continue here. What I've gathered so far:

1. no source for a "consensus statement" on "all currently available GM food"

2. substantial scientific agreement that GM does not introduce additional risk through the process itself compared to conventional breeding

3. no documented cases of harm from GM food so far

4. unclear on what "currently available/currently marketed GM food" is: not stated to what reference date that applies, and to which region: GM food on the international market, or in the various countries where regulations and approved products vary?

The last point is not...hair-splitting, it has been addressed previously in regard to an incomplete description of Regulation, in this and in the dedicated article. In particular, seems like the differences between the US regulatory framework and the rules elsewhere should be simply explained. So, the article needs improvement as well as the safety statement (also previously noted). --Tsavage (talk) 11:52, 13 August 2015 (UTC)

The first is a minority view on this page and at RSN. The 2nd and 3rd are good. the 4th, I don't understand. Jytdog (talk) 12:48, 13 August 2015 (UTC)

• Either there is a source for the "consensus" or there is not, the "minority" argument doesn't make sense in this instance. Secondly, another review came out a few days ago and should be included (along with Domingo, the last of Jdog's references in the section above) in this assessment. If folks here are unable to obtain the full paper, I can summarize it when I have a bit of time. petrarchan47คุก 23:52, 13 August 2015 (UTC)

@Jytdog:: In reply to your comments:

Point 1: Cite a single source that clearly states scientific consensus for all currently marketed GM food, per WP:RS/AC. Is it the AAAS? Risk equivalence between GE and conventional breeding methods is not the same as a risk/safety statement for specific products. Present one source to verify the claim as WP:PAGs require; back it up if you like with additional sources after that.

Point 4 is simple: What is "currently marketed GM food"? What are those foods specifically? "Currently" as of when? Marketed where (maybe I live in the UK, or New Zealand, or the US, or South Korea,... - not all available GM foods are approved for safety and on the market everywhere)? Unqualified, the scope is so broad and vague as to be practically meaningless, especially to our target general reader. If it means, "legally available in any market as of X date," that makes sense. Then, we just need a source that says "scientific consensus" or equivalent wording for no greater risk/as safe as, for that definition of "currently marketed." (See Point 1.)

Furthermore, the article should develop what is summarized in the lead. The scientific consensus statement is not clearly developed in the article, it is only repeated. There is no food safety section or reasonable overview, and the Regulation section does not provide a basic overview of the regulatory situation around the world. All of this is easily summarized in a few paragraphs. Pointing to other articles is not a remedy for deficiencies in this one. --Tsavage (talk) 05:30, 14 August 2015 (UTC)

Per WP:LEAD, the lead summarizes the body, not vice versa. The other two points are united, in that the relative safety is based on

• a) an understanding of the science - that genetic engineering is not some crazy voodoo or in any way bizarre, but rather is routine - taking a gene from A sticking it in B happens, and has happened, in hundreds of research labs around the world every day for the last twenty years or so (very near the beginning of the AAAS statement: " These efforts are not driven by evidence that GM foods are actually dangerous. Indeed, the science is quite clear: crop improvement by the modern molecular techniques of biotechnology is safe."). So much of the opposition to GMOs is based on frank ignorance of this - that genetic engineering is as routine as buying milk to anyone even mildly familiar with contemporary biology. This is one of my biggest frustrations in these discussions. I talk to scientists everyday and I can't emphasize this enough - if they want to study the activity of some protein and they don't think twice - they don't blink - over the notion of slapping that gene into a plasmid, throwing that gene into bacteria, and making a bunch of it. It is like going to the store for milk. they don't even think twice about doing that in order to study some other thing -- genetic engineering is a commonly used tool in biology. You can also order proteins made that way, or plasmids made that way, or even mice made that way, over the internet like you order a book from Amazon. The GE processis no big deal.
• b) an understanding of the review process. The only relevant question then, is whether some given instance of a GM crop is safe to use and to eat. As the AAAS statement discusses starting at the bottom of the second column, each instance goes through regulatory review before it goes to market - the review process ensures that some given instance isn't allergenic or introduce some off-target toxicity - the risks are well known and tested for. So the regulatory process ensures that currently marketed food is OK and that is how we end up with "currently marketed". if you have some better way to summarize the idea that not any GM food imagineable is safe, but only those that have been through the regulatory process, i am all ears.

This is all discussed in the AAAS and in several of the other sources used to support the current statement. Which, by the way, I would be happy to consider modifications to, and I wish you would propose an alternative , Tsavage. Jytdog (talk) 12:28, 14 August 2015 (UTC)

@Jytdog: In reply:

• "the lead summarizes the body, not vice versa" - Please reread what I wrote until you understand it. The lead should summarize; the article should go into more detail, it should develop the subject. For the scientific consensus statement, this article does not go into more detail, it does not appropriately unpick the blanket consensus statement.

• "a) an understanding of the science" - You've restated in 250 words what was last said in 18: "substantial scientific agreement that GM does not introduce additional risk through the process itself compared to conventional breeding." As for general readers, it is reasonable to assume many do not understand this concept, which is why it should be made clear in the article. However, no greater risk does not address the fact that GM allows creation of novel products that conventional breeding cannot practically achieve. You can't conflate an all-things-being-equal comparison between GM and conventional methods, with case by case actual results of the more powerful GM methods. (Yes, as I understand it, conventional methods are also being advanced and made more powerful, but GM remains well-ahead - please correct me here if I am wrong.)

• "b) an understanding of the review process" - Exactly. As I pointed out, the differences in review process, which varies by country for those countries with GMO regulation, should be described and explained, and the fact that the US is uniquely favorable to commercialization of GM food should be noted, as should the fact that "a substantial number of legal academics have criticized the US’s approach to regulating GMOs," with a brief explanation.^[1] The AAAS statement specifically refers to the US review process only: "In order to receive regulatory approval in the United States, each new GM crop must be subjected to rigorous analysis and testing."^[2] The situation is different in other countries. Some countries that, unlike the US, have specific national GMO legislation, do not have any GM food on the market. This is not at all made clear in the article. The bottom line here is that safety as a function of review processes is ultimately determined politically, not purely scientifically: how can we have scientific consensus over the results of political decisions about what science to apply and how to apply it?

If you want to inform the general reader, explain the verifiable reality in readable language. Don't try to fix misperceptions by trying to weight things in order to steer readers to "the truth," which is what this scientific consensus statement seems intended to do.

Regarding GM food safety, we should at the least:

• describe risk equivalence between GM and conventional breeding;
• describe substantial equivalence and how review processes are based on that approach;
• touch on non-targeted assessment and traceability as scientifically of at least equal importance in safety evaluation;
• discuss the situation with long-term testing;
• present an overview of the percentage of GM foods in the human food supply around the world;
• note that no harm has been reported so far from people eating GM foods.

This information in the article can then be summarized as a safety statement in the lead. All of those points are not difficult to present in a concise form (indeed, some of that information was once in this article, and was removed to other locations). IMHO, of course. --Tsavage (talk) 21:44, 14 August 2015 (UTC)

OK, so now you are talking about the article, not the consensus statement per se. not a recap. OK then. So if that is what you what you want to talk about, please let me know how you see this article working with content already in the Controversies article, in the Regulation of Release article, and apparently the GM crops article and the Genetic Engineering article (since your first bullet point is about growing crops, not about food) Thanks. Jytdog (talk) 22:23, 14 August 2015 (UTC)

@Jytdog: No, this is not basis for another long and fruitless tangential discussion. This is a recap and continuation of the current discussion. Article improvement is already a central part of the current conversation around the consensus statement - you have participated in that, just scroll up to refresh your memory. The points are not new, only restated once again to answer you:

• The current consensus statement needs to be reworded now - you have agreed with that - so that can be done independently, taking into account the main points: risk equivalence for methods, no harm so far, and non-uniformity of regulation worldwide.
• The article also needs to be fixed. Eventually, we should arrive at something like what I outlined, article body and safety summary alike. Your previous WP:SYNC argument about daughter articles does not fly: one article should not suffer because other articles exist.
• "Suggestions for reorganizing this article and related GM topics" was recently presented, above. It is consistent with everything else recently discussed.

All of these edits could be roughly committed in a couple hours, initially, mostly by cut and pasting from archived versions and daughter articles, immediately edited for readability, and then incrementally improved. None of it is internally contentious, apart from the consensus statement, it's mostly already sourced and published. In addition, the current (2014-2015) Library of Congress suite of GM0 restriction reports provide a highest quality secondary source for much of this, they include social context, and numerous - hundreds - of directly relevant citations for additional detail. It's not difficult to do, only resistance to improvement stands in the way.

Summary: We can fix the consensus statement now. And we can begin improving the article now. One does not need to follow the other - nothing special here, there is no rigid linear process, this is the way articles are usually edited on Wikipedia, incrementally and simultaneously on multiple fronts, by one or several editors. --Tsavage (talk) 00:01, 15 August 2015 (UTC)

This is a highly contested article and it makes sense to agree on what we are going to do so all hell doesn't break loose. I really am happy to do talk about revising the conensus statement and look forward to sa suggestion from you on that. Your suggestion you linked to above about structure didn't make sense to me as I wrote there - I couldn't figure out what you meant. Happy to keep discussing that but the terminology you were using just didn't communicate to me. Jytdog (talk) 00:29, 15 August 2015 (UTC)

Jytdog: The question here is whether you continue to want some form of blanket safety statement, or whether summarizing the available evidence is sufficient. Other editors have proposed reworked wording of a statement that you've rejected. My opinion is that, for the lead, a paragraph on food safety explaining:

• no evidence of harm so far (in context of 20 or so years on the market);
• general scientific agreement that GM isn't inherently riskier - safety is considered case by case concerning the specific modification and not the method by which it was accomplished;
• regulations (or lack thereof) on a country by country basis determine what is actually legally available.

At this point, that is my suggestion. It is not hard to write up. --Tsavage (talk) 03:56, 25 August 2015 (UTC)

That was really helpful. Every bullet there is fine by me. Shall I propose actual content for discussion here, or would you like to? Jytdog (talk) 15:07, 25 August 2015 (UTC)

You can propose the content for discussion. --Tsavage (talk) 02:37, 26 August 2015 (UTC)

Notice that when you mention no harm since 20 years on market, also mention that long term is unknown. Warnings on this come from credible sources, currently part of the article, i.e. horizontal gene transfer. prokaryotes (talk) 02:52, 26 August 2015 (UTC)

There's also a fringe element tucked into the long term is unknown type claims. There are moving goal-post arguments that get made in the context sometimes, so we'd need to be careful to avoid vague aspersions to the unknown and focus on what sources legitimately say are areas needed for future research. It can be tricky to sort out an arm-chair scientist hypothesis from a legitimately grounded concern here, so just a caution depending on what is actually proposed. Kingofaces43 (talk) 03:31, 26 August 2015 (UTC)

The current version, reference No.93, contains a reliable source about long term consequences (unpredictable results). If you think this is fringe then provide some reliable source to back up the claims, also i wonder why this is in the current article version then.prokaryotes (talk) 03:37, 26 August 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for pointing that one out. I removed it since it doesn't appear to fit WP:MEDRS There's no indication that this Vienna Doctor’s Chamber is a reputable organization in the field (there's really very little on it), and Dr. Hans-Peter Petutschnig appears to just be a PR person in the group, so we can't quote in terms of expertise either. That one actually does get into some vague arm waving that isn't taken seriously in literature on this topic, but that's beside the point when reliability is questionable.

There actually is a whole field of risk-analysis that actually addresses whether such concerns are legitimate or not. Some of that tends to be scattered within multiple reviews, but I've seen a few good sources that summarize the risk-analysis side of things pretty well that I've been meaning to look over again specifically for these articles. Another thing for the to-do list. Kingofaces43 (talk) 04:32, 26 August 2015 (UTC)

No sign that there is any fringe in it as you suggested above or has to do with MEDRS, I've re-added what appears to be very reasonable. It has also nothing to do with MEDRS (biomedical research).prokaryotes (talk) 04:41, 26 August 2015 (UTC)

I wasn't addressing fringe for that specific source, just reliability. However, the content is directly addressing human health, so there is no question MEDRS applies here. If you're not quite catching the reliability issues I mentioned in my post above, it might be worth discussing in a separate section to keep the current discussion on more topic. Kingofaces43 (talk) 05:01, 26 August 2015 (UTC)

The reference is tied to the paragraph, and when we mention Greenpeace etc, (though the Vienna source isn't mentioned there), why not add those references too? This has nothing to do with MEDRS here, it has to do with the entire section. You remove now selectively reference to content which had been part of the article for months. Possible implications from long term effects are a issue raised, you can not make this fact go away by removing cites.prokaryotes (talk) 05:08, 26 August 2015 (UTC)

And did you even read the statement, it calls for better research. prokaryotes (talk) 05:12, 26 August 2015 (UTC)

An Illusory Consensus behind GMO Health Assessment

• Relevant study No scientific consensus on GMO safety or An Illusory Consensus behind GMO Health Assessment, and there is much more, but since the above discussion is about an alleged consensus... prokaryotes (talk) 04:56, 26 August 2015 (UTC)

Prokaryotes that source has been discussed to death and takes a FRINGE perspective. Jytdog (talk) 10:32, 26 August 2015 (UTC)

Jytdog Where was this source discussed previously? Link to the conversation of this source please, or I will have to assume you were not being honest. petrarchan47คุก 04:14, 29 August 2015 (UTC)

Framing valid science as fringe is a concern, please take more care, otherwise I have to assume that your edits are agenda driven. Are you a paid editor?prokaryotes (talk) 10:51, 26 August 2015 (UTC)

The 2015 Krimsky review has not been discussed here as far as I am aware. We have Domingo listed in the references that we're attempting to summarize (see top of this section, ref 7) to support The minority view holds that there is some risk. Domingo has already been accepted and arrives at essentially the same conclusion. We need to swap out Domingo in the refs above with the more recent one from Tufts, which includes Domingo and 7 other reviews in the assessment. "Fringe" is being used here incorrectly.

[An anti GMO labeling position paper by the board of the AAAS - a paper with which not all AAAS scientists agree, is not MEDRS but is being used to make a health claim in WP's voice. Oftentimes sources that favor the biotech industry have no problem making it into this article, and sources which have anything 'negative' to add will be 'discussed' here on the talk page until people end up retiring out of frustration.]

• From a review of the Tufts paper:

A Tufts researcher, Sheldon Krimsky, recently published his assessment of the last seven years of peer-reviewed evidence, finding 26 studies that "reported adverse effects or uncertainties of GMOs fed to animals...Contrary to the claims of consensus, he found 26 studies that showed significant cause for concern in animal studies, among many studies that showed no harm.

Krimsky found eight reviews of the literature and they showed anything but consensus. Three cited cause for concern from existing animal studies. Two found inadequate evidence of harm that could affect humans, justifying the U.S. government’s principle that if GM crops are "substantially equivalent" to their non-GM counterparts, this is adequate to guarantee safety. Three reviews suggested that the evidence base is limited, the types of studies that have been done are inadequate to guarantee safety even if they show no harm, and further study and improved testing is warranted.

• Another review of the paper from Daniel Hicks (AAAS Science and Technology Policy Fellow at the EPA) noted:

Krimsky’s primary claim in the first part is that the evidence of GM health hazards is conflicting and ambiguous, and consequently systematic reviews and organizational reports have arrived at incompatible conclusions. Some reports find no substantive reason to be concerned about GM health hazards; others are more cautious, and emphasize the relatively small number of studies that have claimed to find health hazards.

The longstanding safety claim does not have support as written. To write a new summary of the science, we should lay out the material being summarized. Jytdog listed sources above - it would be helpful to write a paragraph or two detailing the findings and various statements and then come up with a summary. petrarchan47คุก 04:28, 27 August 2015 (UTC)

I think this is very good now, "There is general scientific agreement that food from genetically modified crops is not inherently riskier to human health than conventional food.[4][5][6][7][8][9] However, other sources conclude that because of research issues due to intellectual property rights, limited access to research material, differences in methods, analysis and the interpretation of data, it is not possible to state if GMOs are generally safe or unsafe, and instead must be a judged on case-by-case basis." And the question is then if we should add a safety or research section as well, and edits to the controversy section. prokaryotes (talk) 04:44, 27 August 2015 (UTC)

There's a bit of fringe POVs/activism mired in the intellectual property rights, etc. type comments you see in sources out there, but the more important problem is that it's more of a distraction from why they are actually judged on a case by case basis. For a toxicological standpoint, each event undergoes risk analysis because it's the protein/gene product that is being tested for various safety parameters. The heart of most any consensus statement in papers is that transgenic processes themselves do not pose an increased safety risk; there are inherent risks with consuming any crop species or variety (e.g. Solanine#Solanine_in_potatoes, so it's no longer of a question of whether something is GM or not (it's just like any new gene at that point), but really what your chemical of interest is in the plant. The choice is just easier in this case when you know what you've added already instead of the unknown changes you get in conventional breeding.

We'd want to be more reflective of the above in any consensus statement in explaining why case by case analyses are done. Basically a two tiered statement saying the GM process itself doesn't increase risk, but like any crop variety, you'd need to do testing specifically on that to ensure more general safety. We do need to be careful about confounding that latter part into meaning that GM crops are unique in that they need to tested on a case by case basis if you decided to look for safety concerns. Kingofaces43 (talk) 05:16, 27 August 2015 (UTC)

We'd just need a good source for this, King, besides you. It would need translation per WP:TECHNICAL into language a non-scientist (the vast majority of WP readers) would understand - another reason to refer to RS and ignore OR. petrarchan47คุก 20:35, 27 August 2015 (UTC)

• It would help to see the sources being used, Prokaryotes, for the claims following "However...". I suppose the WHO and Krimsky/Tufts would suffice. And, of course a statement or section on the actual science to date must be included in the article. We might consider opening a separate TP section to discuss that. petrarchan47คุก 20:16, 27 August 2015 (UTC)

Jytdog The Krimsky review has not been mentioned in our article yet. I'd like to ask again for you to support your claim that previous discussions took place about this source. Finally, do you have any objections to my summarizing the review and adding that to the article? I still believe we need a separate safety/health section, but I suppose this content can fit under "controversy" for now, since that's (oddly) where health effects are discussed.

This is the extent of our health effects/safety coverage:

From Lede:

While there is general scientific agreement that food from genetically modified crops is not inherently riskier to human health than conventional food, there are controversies related to food safety,...

Body (controversy section):

There is general scientific agreement that food on the market from genetically modified crops is not inherently riskier to human health than conventional food. No reports of ill effects have been documented in the human population from GM food.

As TFD noted earlier here, "If are going to say there is a conflict in rs over what the scientific consensus is, we need a source that mentions the conflict, otherwise it is original research. What I found particularly bad about the RfC was that we were provided with numerous sources, many of which failed the MEDRS standards that the proposer claimed was so important. It was as if quantity could make up for lack of quality. I would like to revisit the issue. So far the only review studies that have been presented say that there is no scientific consensus, and I would therefore oppose presenting a false equivalency by presenting alternative views as having parity. With the current sources, the neutral position is to report what the review studies say and use them to explain the dissenting opinion." petrarchan47คุก 16:49, 10 September 2015 (UTC)

I'm only following this page semi regularly, so I may missed some earlier discussion, but at first glance I don't really see an issue with 2 papers Prokaryotes wants to use. Why would they be fringe? And where have they benn discussed before? Which policy are they supposed to violate?--Kmhkmh (talk) 04:18, 30 September 2015 (UTC)

The Tufts/Krimsky review has been dismissed by the arguments you see in this thread (above). It has not been discussed in any way, contrary to claims. The Domingo review was brought up in the RfC and dismissed with WP:OR. It was later characterized as a "minority view" here. petrarchan47คุก 01:28, 2 October 2015 (UTC)

RFC regarding WHO study

Recently a study by the WHO found that the herbicide glyphosate is probably carcinogenic. This is also covered at the glyphosate article, now there are new calls for labelling GMOs (Secondary source in the mainstream media) based on this study. Since this article here is about GMOs and controversies -- including labelling, it seems perfectly fine to include the info. User Yobol removed the addition and claims it is WP:Undue (Weight). Above 4 editors agreed to include the findings, 2 (Jytdog and Yobol) cite that the source does not meet WP:MEDRS, however as pointed out the content is unrelated to MEDRS, doesn't gives any health advice, and is covered by reliable secondary sources. (Nature Science, The New England Journal of Medicine, in the mainstream media). prokaryotes (talk) 00:42, 27 August 2015 (UTC)

• Summary We discuss this edit. prokaryotes (talk) 00:52, 27 August 2015 (UTC)

Support inclusion - per Prokaryotes. Claims of Undue Weight are unconvincing and in my view approach disruptive. The material is factual, relevant to the article, and frankly, long overdue. Jusdafax 00:58, 27 August 2015 (UTC)

• Premature and aggressive RfC. This article is not about the controversies. This article is about GM food; it has a WP:SUMMARY section on Controversies taken from the lead of the Genetically modified food controversies article, per WP:SYNC. OP seems to have read one article today and is now on fire to force content about it into WP, but appears to know almost nothing about this topic, or this article, or how the related WP articles are knit together. A section on glyphosate per se is not appropriate in this article which is about GM food per se. Further content on glyphosate and other residues in/on GM food is probably relevant in the associated Genetically modified food controversies article; if is rises to the importance of being in the lead there, it can come into the WP:SUMMARY section on Controversies that is in this article, per WP:SYNC. Jytdog (talk) 01:07, 27 August 2015 (UTC)

There seems to be some sort of perception issue by editor Jytdog, in the past hours he frequently makes claims about my edits, calls them passionate, aggressive, threatens me with a ban on my talk page now. Ironically the only aggression i can observe comes from this very editor, who is very active on this and similar pages. He seems to be very close attached to the topic, maybe to close to make an objective judgement. prokaryotes (talk) 01:15, 27 August 2015 (UTC)

The reality is that today you broke 3RR and are trying to force content into this highly controversial article without consensus. If everyone edited this article as you have done today, this article would be a war zone and we would have been at arbcom and under discretionary sanctions ages ago. Your editing is wildly inappropriate on a controversial article like this. So far it is just one day and I hoping that you will calm down and slow down - there is no deadline here. And you barely understand what you are editing about. It is bad on many levels. Please slow down, read more, and talk more. I threatened you with nothing - I told that people who edit aggressively on controversial articles tend to get topic banned. Thanks. Jytdog (talk) 01:19, 27 August 2015 (UTC) (I did not bring the 3RR case and am striking since this has become a distraction Jytdog (talk) 11:55, 27 August 2015 (UTC))

Maybe i should just ignore someone who obviously is not even able to count. prokaryotes (talk) 01:28, 27 August 2015 (UTC)

Jytdog, could you specify the 3 RR's you allege occurred? I am wondering, as i don't see it on first glance when looking at the article's edit history. Thanks. SageRad (talk) 01:51, 27 August 2015 (UTC)

I would also like to see diffs supporting this charge of a 3RR violation, a blockable offense which Prokaryotes has denied. Charges of this sort should not be cast lightly. Jusdafax 04:07, 27 August 2015 (UTC)

Unfortunately, Jytdog has an ongoing history of inaccurate counting - see here[[3]]. Perhaps this is a competency issue?DrChrissy ^(talk) 14:38, 27 August 2015 (UTC)

It seems Jytdog struck the 3RR claim, and added some text saying he did not threaten anyone but only commented on Prokaryotes' talk page to the effect that "people who edit aggressively on controversial articles tend to get topic banned", which sounds too much to me like someone receiving a note that says "People who cross certain lines tend to be found in the river with concrete shoes" -- and Prokaryotes seems to have perceived it as a threat, and communication involves the sender and receiver of a message, so at the very minimum, the intent of the communication did not reach the receiver as intended. I've had a similar history of what i would also characterize as threatening language from several editors including Jytdog in the past months. I don't find it helpful. I find it, to the contrary, to be unfriendly and to create a hostile environment. I think that principles and practices can be explained in a positive way, to show an explain how certain ways of editing can be helpful and constructive here, and others are not. I try to do that as well. I try to encourage good dialogue and general civility. I don't think the contentious nature of dialogue on many talk pages is necessary. SageRad (talk) 14:50, 27 August 2015 (UTC)

Doc, you present a disturbing diff that confirms that a serious problem exists with Jtdog's editing behavior. Jtdog's attempt to squelch this Rfc as seen above troubles me, the denial and then retraction in the "Glyphosate" section above that they had never claimed glyphosate was not a herbicide, and the edits made by Jtdog at Prokaryotes' Talk page in the past few days reinforce that. SageRad, I agree that Jtdog uses rhetorical threats that are designed to intimidate yet be plausibly deniable, so much so that I asked him some time back to stay off my Talk page. I have also sought for some time to avoid Jtdog altogether. My patience is now exhausted per WP:BULLY. It's time for some accountability and a discussion of sanctions. Jusdafax 15:31, 27 August 2015 (UTC)

Jusdafax, I make mistakes sometimes and acknowledge them when I do. As an experienced wikipedian I look for you to be tamping down dramah, not ramping it up. If you cannot see the swarming and aggressive editing going on here in the past few days, I don't know what to tell you. But it may finally bring this suite of articles to arbcom. We have avoided wasting the community's time with that to date, as editors have shown reasonable self-restraint. That seems to be going out the window at this time. I am hoping this bit of storm will pass, however. But again, I look for experienced editors to be tamping down dramah. If you want to open an ANI which would have to be the first step, knock yourself out. I am thinking of doing so, but am hoping we can work things out here and on user talk pages as needed, and get there through reasonable discussion. Jytdog (talk) 15:42, 27 August 2015 (UTC)

Your reply to my expressed concerns is a masterpiece. On one hand you speak with the calm voice of reason while at the same time mentioning ANI and even ArbCom. So be it. I'm putting you on formal notice to stop the type of bullying that includes attempts to quash this Rfc, above, and the abusive "warnings" you dispense, including the job you and Kingofaces have done on Prokaryotes' talk page. That stops now. I am warning you with the strongest possible intent. Jusdafax 21:37, 27 August 2015 (UTC)

• Support with reservation. I hear Jytdog when he says that the Genetically modified food controversies should lead the Controversies section of this article, but on the other hand, i think it matters not where we grow first. What matters is to grow -- to grow more mature, more complete, more measured, more balanced. I think that the labeling of the Organic Consumers Association and the other groups as "advocacy groups" is accurate but uncalled for in this text. They may be advocacy groups, but calling that out in the text seems tendentious to me, as if when we mention Monsanto, we said "the for-profit company who has deceived the public in the past, Monsanto..." It seems to be a loaded epitaph, in other words. As to the inclusion of the IARC monograph summary, it may be WP:UNDUE here in terms of level of coverage in this article, but may be more reasonably integrated as part of the Genetically modified food controversies article, and if it makes it into the lede of that article, then it would be suitable in terms of weight here in the Controversies section of this article. Indeed, i do concur with Jytdog on the recommendation to slow down. Let us frame the relevant questions, and then make the edits after discussing. Let us all be here in dialogue with integrity. SageRad (talk) 01:24, 27 August 2015 (UTC)
• Reject. It belongs in Genetically modified food controversies (and Glyphosate). This article is about food. Lfstevens (talk) 01:48, 27 August 2015 (UTC)

The current article version mentions food labels, this article too http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMp1505660 (based on the WHO find). I too think that the mentioned articles are the main articles, but recent developments as we do with other data (AAAS directors board opinion) should be part of the article, especially when it comes from an authority such as WHO:prokaryotes (talk) 02:04, 27 August 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose inclusion. This article is on GM food, so going into glyphosate potentially being carcinogenic is a WP:COATRACK and hence undue weight. We've already got the content in the glyphosate article where it belongs until we get the actual report to look over. I still cannot see why there is now such a rush by certain editors to push more advocacy into these articles. I agree that this RfC is extremely premature considering the content was just inserted only a few hours ago with an almost immediate RfC with no discussion about the specific edit. Kingofaces43 (talk) 02:18, 27 August 2015 (UTC)
• Support inclusion GMO foods and glyphosate are intricately related, and this finding has been big news - as JusDaFax notes, mention of it here is long overdue. Content can be discussed in greater detail in the daughter article (GMO Controversies). petrarchan47คุก 03:36, 27 August 2015 (UTC)
• Support The article mentions in the lead that GMO foods are not any more riskier than non GMO. But a total picture of risk cant be shown without the risk from the pesticide that is used for GMO plants. It comes from one of the highest rated sources we have, the WHO [4]. While a long section may not be appropriate, a few sentence or a small paragraph can be included in the article and a sentence in the lede, once in the article, is appropriate. AlbinoFerret 03:55, 27 August 2015 (UTC)

I would say a paragraph at the very least is required for balance. The arguments against inclusion are looking increasingly strained. Jusdafax 04:14, 27 August 2015 (UTC)

A small paragraph sounds about right. The risks of GMO food cant be separated from the pesticide that they use when it is found that it is probably a carcinogen. There is no safe level of a carcinogen to my knowledge. AlbinoFerret 05:28, 27 August 2015 (UTC)

The WHO source has indicated briefly that the potential carcinogenicity is at worker level exposure, not in consuming the food itself. We'll know more on those details when the actual report comes out, which is why the spirit of WP:NOTNEWS and WP:DEADLINE are being mentioned here so much. Additionally, there is no "safe" level of anything. Water is technically a carcinogen, so it's all a matter of relative risk. We don't know if the carcinogenicity is equivalent to say 1 minute out in the sun or 12 hours a day for your whole life. Again, we'll find out more later, but that's for the scope of other articles such as glyphosate specifically with the information we currently have. Kingofaces43 (talk) 05:45, 27 August 2015 (UTC)

I linked directly to a WHO document above, not a news story. You cant separate GMO food, from the pesticide that is the main reason GMO's are used. There is still a risk. A mention of the available information can be included WP:DEADLINENOW and WP:NOTPAPER. AlbinoFerret 05:55, 27 August 2015 (UTC)

Yes, and I was commenting directly on that link. By saying there is a risk from the food perspective, that is WP:OR at this time as explained above. Kingofaces43 (talk) 06:02, 27 August 2015 (UTC)

There is still a risk even if its to exposure during the farming and harvesting of it. This article is titled "Genetically modified food" not "Genetically modified food when eaten". AlbinoFerret 06:10, 27 August 2015 (UTC)

Which is original research on your part again as described above. Please stick to sources and discussion of content and sources. As for article scope, it sounds like you're looking for Genetically modified crops. That article is more about the crops themselves and how they are grown, while this article is about them after they are harvested and switch from crop to food product. Kingofaces43 (talk) 06:17, 27 August 2015 (UTC)

The History and Process section cover food production and lab development. Herbicide is mentioned 5 times, and Glyphosate is mentioned 4 times in the article. Hence, this article is not only about the foods, but also about the growing of foods. prokaryotes (talk) 08:07, 27 August 2015 (UTC)

Here again I agree with Prokaryotes and AlbinoFerret and support their statements. Jusdafax 13:10, 27 August 2015 (UTC)

• Support inclusion per arguments made above by those who have called for supporting inclusion. David Tornheim (talk) 05:12, 27 August 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose inclusion. This is an article about general issues about genetically modified foods as a whole. It is more appropriate for glyphosphate or the more specialized genetically modified food controversies. It is not appropriate and WP:UNDUE to discuss all level of s controversies of specific GMOs here, as a proper, duely weighted, discussion would take up a disproportionate area of this article. Put another way, if we are to discuss the WHO report, we would also have to discuss every other major study on glyphosophate for due weight as well, as well as every other major report of every other controversy because to include the one WHO report here without including the others would be an attempt to highlight just one side of one small part of the GM food issue. Yobol (talk) 14:53, 27 August 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose inclusion. To cram in material on every topic that is tangentially related to any aspect of an article, when that topic has its own article, is characteristic of novices and is categorically unencyclopaedic. For references to such topics we have a facility called linking (which in this case would be entirely appropriate and informationally adequate wherever glyphosate tolerance is mentioned in this article). This article is about Genetically modified food; Genetically modified food controversies and Glyphosate are separate and different topics. Otherwise, why stop here at the glyphosate controversy? Put in a section on glyphosate, its chemical structure, history, and pharmacology, in fact generally duplicating the glyphosate article; add a section on WHO and another one on cancer. Surely everyone reading an article on Genetically modified food will be far too impatient to see data on those topics, to be willing to click on a link? And maintenance of all the articles that contain duplicated data will be no problem at all every time there are changes or new material, right? JonRichfield (talk) 09:29, 28 August 2015 (UTC)

Since the article has a controversy section, it seems odd to not mention the WHO study. The thing is that the current controversy section and the new content overlap, per secondary sources. Hence, readers will just wonder why we don't mention it here. prokaryotes (talk) 09:37, 28 August 2015 (UTC)

As long as this article is articulate and is suitably and logically linked there is nothing in the least odd about not wandering off into externalities such as WHO studies concerning controversies (which you will note, are dealt with in Genetically modified food controversies as opposed to matters concerning Genetically modified food), nor what you imagine readers might wonder about. Such concerns have nothing to do with the topic of the inclusion of material that patently belongs in Genetically modified food controversies, a coherent article that is clearly, adequately, explicitly, and even conveniently, linked at the head of the current section. The rest of that section seems to me to be fairly well constructed to give some perspective of the sorts of controversy to be expected, and where to find more information, such as at the linked article in question (which is precisely why that linked article exists at all, and why it is linked to. Personally I think that section on controversies is already overdoing it a little, but why quibble about details?) A reader who cannot read anything as helpful as that is not likely to wonder about what might be included or excluded, nor about much else. If desired, a few more links might be inserted in the section, such as (thumbsuck warning!) contamination of the conventional food supply which would enable readers who wonder about why anyone would want a controversy about "contamination of the conventional food supply" to consult details quickly, conveniently, in context, and in up-to-date form, rather than wondering why we do mention it here in so unencyclopaedic a manner. JonRichfield (talk) 18:37, 28 August 2015 (UTC)

The problem with this reasoning, as has been noted in detail in earlier recent discussions on this Talk page, is that Genetically modified food controversies is a poorly formed article, a spinoff that fractured this main article, and relocated material that is central to this topic, elsewhere. Much of the controversies article addresses non-controversial aspects of GM food, and serves as a rebuttal to vaguely stated controversies. An argument was made that, now that a GM food controversies article exists, we are bound by WP:SUMMARY to only edit certain topics there, then only reflect them here if they percolate to the lead of that article. This isn't efficient or constructive, and is not policy-based, it's an arbitrary and overly restrictrive application of a general editing guideline. Articles should be improved independently, and not bound by the definciencies of other articles. --Tsavage (talk) 22:21, 29 August 2015 (UTC)

You have made it well known that you don't like the current structure, as have a few others. While "we should be free to do whatever we want" may sound attractive to you and a few others, there is a practical need to keep content in WP:SYNC across Wikipedia. You will find few experienced editors who favor chaos with regard to subject matter that spans several articles. And I remain open to discussing concrete, actionable proposals for different structures to keep content in WP:SYNC, and to define reasonable scopes of articles within suites of related articles to keep them all from bleeding into one another. Jytdog (talk) 22:39, 29 August 2015 (UTC)

Jytdog, please stop injecting your interpretations of an alphabet soup of policies, guidelines and essays, speculating about editors thoughts, and providing unsolicited opinions about how Wikipedia works. It's unwanted and usually hyperbolic and misleading. Which few experienced editors DO favor chaos of any sort? Where have I indicated that I might find "doing whatever we want" attractive? What are you talking about, and to what end? These off-point replies only serve to disrupt the discussion, and you do this continually. At least in replies to me, please comment on content, not editors. --Tsavage (talk) 07:03, 30 August 2015 (UTC)

Tsavage, this is not the only example of this tactic. There is an article Foie gras and a separate article Foie gras controversy. This is the only example I know where this dichotomy exists for a farm animal - controversy is usually kept within the main article. Alexbrn, a well known "friend" and tandem editor of Jytdog, is insistent on placing material he apparently does not like on the Foie gras controversy page, or placing information such as bans in a "controversy" section.[5] The Foie gras controversy page, for whatever reasons, attracts lower grade edits, and as such, appears less encyclopaedic than the main article page. However, there appears little effort to remedy this by those who might be in a position to do so. It is therefore easy to form the opinion that Foie gras is edited by sensible, educated level-headed persons and must be "The Truth", whereas Foie gras controversy is edited by radical, fringe persons and is therefore far less likely to be "The Truth". Material which might be "uncomfortable" is therefore dumped into the "controversy" article where it is automatically, but mistakenly, viewed as dubious. Subtle - but effective.DrChrissy ^(talk) 23:21, 29 August 2015 (UTC)

DrChrissy, please stop abusing the article talk page. This is not the place for personal vendettas to distract from the goals of an article talk page, which is some of the behavior that led to your current topic ban, not to mention that you are entering into a discussion that's content is squarely within your topic ban. You have no place in this conversation on the WHO study as it is relating to human health. Kingofaces43 (talk) 02:17, 30 August 2015 (UTC)

I am not abusing the talk page and I resent you posting that. The thread at the moment of my posting was discussing the problems which occur when an article is split into a main article and a controversy article. My comment therefore, was entirely relevant to the project as a whole. This talk page is about Genetically modified food and as such, posting here is not in breach of my topic ban.DrChrissy ^(talk) 12:05, 30 August 2015 (UTC)

To prepare articles dealing with separate topics that refer to certain common elements, only linking them where there are

relevant references, is in every way beneficial, helpful and encyclopaedic. WP articles are not self-contained books covering entire fields, and to permit them to expand into formless monstrosities is destructive and disruptive. If Tsavage doesn't like the form of Genetically modified food controversies, then let him by all means improve it -- by editing Genetically modified food controversies, not Genetically modified food. That sort of thing is what relevance is all about, please note, prokaryotes. JonRichfield (talk) 07:02, 30 August 2015 (UTC)

@JonRichfield:: This RfC doesn't come out of the blue, nor do my comments. Have you familiarized yourself with the discussions here over the last three months? Have you compared this article immediately before and after Genetically modified food controversies was created? Have you read both articles in their current state? There are fundamental problems with how content is distributed across the two articles. As several editors recently noted, sections like "Public Perception" and "Health and Safety" naturally belong in this article, not hidden in a long and rambling Controversies page that at times goes on for multiple paragraphs without mentioning controversy. The Controversies article essentially discusses almost everything about GM food, while this article is left with context-less molecular diagrams, tedious descriptions of things like how soy flour is made, and a contentious scientific consensus statement, propped up by 18 citations, and repeated twice. Your comments don't indicate that you are aware of any of this. --Tsavage (talk) 07:19, 30 August 2015 (UTC)

Tsavage, the effort of caring less about the history of the RFC would unreasonably strain my capacity. No matter how many times the advocacy has been repeated, remasticated, or regurgitated, it remains nonsensical to put material into inappropriate articles. An article about food is about food, whether it be Foie gras or GMF or Fatback. An article about controversy is about controversy, whether the controversy is about food or not, and whether the article is to your taste or not. If you think Genetically modified food controversies is a lousy article, stop posturing and fix it, instead of messing up other articles as well or instead. There is no way on Earth, given the existence of the controversies article, that "Public Perception" and "Health and Safety" belong here instead of there. If you think they are hidden there, why not fix that uncontroversially instead of wasting a lot of time here? JonRichfield (talk) 09:09, 30 August 2015 (UTC)

@JonRichfield:: You seem to have an extraordinary ability to determine what is controversial and what is simply factual information, without need for actually consulting the material. If we decide that GM food as a topic is generally controversial, which is not unreasonable, then by your reasoning, the entire article is a controversies article, and all information should be included there.

This, it turns out, is in good measure what has happened. We have the "controversial" aspects of Public Perception, Health, Economy, and so forth in one place, with no information on those topics, controversial or otherwise, in the main article for the subject. In the case of Regulation, we do seem to have recognized the concept that a subject area can be in two places at once, yet when we argue that, for example, "Health and Safety" is a logical section that readers would expect to find here, and not have to ferret out from a Controversies article, that is met with boondoggling resistance. Oddly, Detection is apparently not controverisal, and we can learn that, "Testing on GMOs in food and feed is routinely done using molecular techniques such as PCR and bioinformatics," before heading off to Detection of genetically modified organisms for more.

This only begins to describe the larger problem. Hopefully, your abilities to discern from afar extend to the differences between GM food and Genetically modified crops, part of the overall fragmentation of GM articles into a web of subtopics and side topics. So if we want an easily accessible table of available GM foods - y'know, apples, corn, potatoes,... - we have to go to the Crops article; here in Foods, similar information is mixed in with overly detailed descriptions of animal feed and textured soy protein.

The web of articles is so complicated, sections as like as not point to two or more main articles, and multiple articles have links to the same article, in one size fits all fashion, like having Regulation sections point to Regulation of the release of genetic modified organisms and Regulation of genetic engineering. The logic behind this approach is clear, but the application leaves much to be desired, which is why editors are trying to improve it.

Given this unfortunately user-unfriendly situation, it is all the more important in this particularly confused set-up to have at least the highest level articles, like Genetically modified food, be reasonably self-contained, so readers are not sent on an inefficient, possibly maddening and unsuccessful, fact hunt through the GM article web. That is why all of the main subjects associated with GM food should be covered to a reasonable degree directly in the article about GM food. --Tsavage (talk) 13:19, 30 August 2015 (UTC)

Tsavage thank you for your generosity with your evaluations and revelations. I am happy to inform you that I have nothing to add to what I have said, explained, and reexplained. Sadly, I am disappointed to observe that you in turn were unable to find anything to add. And I am busy. JonRichfield (talk) 06:19, 31 August 2015 (UTC)

@JonRichfield: You're welcome. I guess you did what you could, and what more could we ask of anyone? --Tsavage (talk) 06:33, 31 August 2015 (UTC)

• See also WP:POVFORK petrarchan47คุก 20:59, 30 August 2015 (UTC)

• Comment What is so difficult to understand about the concept of relevance of material to the topic, especially when other, linked, topics deal explicitly with that material? We have an article on (remember, anyone?) Genetically modified food. If that were the only article concerning the field, then it could go into sordid detail about its pharmacology, both therapeutic and toxicological, its politics, whether fiscal, nutritional, or commercial, its propaganda, both denigratory and religious, and how to spell the names and disorders of the proponents and opponents. As it happens however, we do have articles on every topic any normal committee could dream up, easily searched and linked in context. To include their content in the current article then reduces to self-indulgent frothing about personal concerns. Suppose for example GMO food product X (say farmed green salmon) is Glyposate-resistant? OK if we are talking about product X. But then we should explain what glyphosate is, in case the reader doesn't know, and doesn't realise that he cannot rely on getting his daily dose by eating green salmon? So we must include an article on the chemical nature and metabolic benefits, because we have legitimately mentioned glyphosate? Get real! We have a new facility in WP; it is called linking! If we mention Glyphosate in the context of GMO foods, then we do not mention details that are covered in the linked material, any more than we describe ploughs and milling in the article on bread, even if we find a legitimate need to link to those topics. We have two main classes of participants here: those with the religious compulsion to drag anything they feel strongly about into every topic that they can cram it into, (you have no idea who you are, do you?) and those who believe that it matters to the encyclopaedic nature of WP that every article should be coherent in itself and that wherever it mentions a concept that could be taken in context as understood by the cognoscenti, but that might well demand study and explanation by those unfamiliar with the field, that suitable aids should be employed to empower them to find what they need to know and to do so conveniently and expeditiously in articles that deal with those concepts comprehensively and in context. Such aids are known as links for example. I am new here, but in this controversy so far it already is pathetic to see the juvenile to cram in every possible hot button where there is no matching buttonhole. I have seen better-constructed primary school essays. JonRichfield (talk) 19:41, 28 August 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for that Jon. I'm not sure that phrases such as "juvenile compulsion" will help matters.DrChrissy ^(talk) 21:03, 28 August 2015 (UTC)

Understood DrChrissy; possibly it would have been adequate in the context to leave it at: "...in this controversy so far it already is pathetic to see the compulsion to cram in every possible hot button where there is no matching buttonhole. I have seen better-constructed primary school essays" and let the reader infer the nature of the apparent compulsion and assess its effect on the quality of the article, which is supposed to be informative rather than exhortational. JonRichfield (talk) 06:15, 29 August 2015 (UTC)

Usually only that which can be proven is admissible in an RfC - editors' motivations are not included in that category unless they've been publicly expressed. As for linking, a review of WP:LINKSTYLE is in order, particularly:

Do not unnecessarily make a reader chase links: if a highly technical term can be simply explained with very few words, do so.

Do use a link wherever appropriate, but as far as possible do not force a reader to use that link to understand the sentence.

The text needs to make sense to readers who cannot follow links. Users may print articles or read offline, and Wikipedia content may be encountered in republished form, often without links. petrarchan47คุก 21:47, 28 August 2015 (UTC)

"Proven" is a loose term in context petrarchan47, it does not here equate to Aristotelean syllogism; nor are my remarks on compulsion and hot buttons aimed at "proving" anything; they are the natural interpretation of my first reading of the foregoing spit-fight. You might compare them favourably to the unnecessarily wounding application of the term "rhetoric" to my constructive and corrective assessment; in my youth I might have found it ill-advised to characterise the remarks of my primary school teachers in their assessments of my work as rhetoric; in this discussion I would have considered application of the term as merely too high-flown for the capacity of the source, and no doubt kindly intended.
You in turn will be interested to note however, that supplying adequate links to technical terms in all articles is not the same as "unnecessarily making a reader chase links"; in an article of this nature, not only is it entirely reasonable to expect that a reader who has read thus far could infer the meaning of Genetically modified food controversies and that Glyphosate is a substance of which the role is at issue, and it is equally reasonable to assume that such readers might be able to decide for themselves whether they either need to or want to follow the links without having out-of-context views thrust in their faces and breaking the thread of the text. To explain every link "with very few words", whether desired or not, not only would be distracting but patronising; very bad practice on every level.
There is more to linking than explanation of "highly technical terms"; there is amplification of context and connections. For instance, Genetically modified food controversies as a reference is not in context obscure at all, but to discuss its content and explain it in this article would be out of place, and accordingly unhelpful for most readers. IOW, bad writing as well as bad practice.
"As far as possible not forcing a reader to use that link to understand the sentence" is thoroughly meritorious, but as it is common cause, it is hardly appropriate to mention it here. For example, none of the examples of links mentioned here are anywhere near to violating that principle.
The exhortation to use text that makes make sense to readers who cannot follow links is praiseworthy, but only within appropriate limits; WP is an interactive medium -- it is no part of WP principles to distort or devalue content by writing unnaturally at the cost of those who can use links, to indulge users who print print articles or read offline, or republish Wikipedia content without bothering to allow for links in the text. Such users could at the least be required to look up the linked text themselves and to paraphrase it to suit their needs -- to take that logic any further would force us to drop the use of links and redirection entirely; two of our most powerful tools, both to authors and readers. JonRichfield (talk) 06:15, 29 August 2015 (UTC)

Excellent points, Petrarchan47, and I thank you for making them. I agree with DrChrissy that Jon's rhetoric, using a term like "pathetic," is unhelpful. Jusdafax 03:11, 29 August 2015 (UTC)

User talk:JonRichfield It is usually considered bad form to edit your own edits after others have commented on them. If you do, these should be marked up according to WP:REDACT. In this diff[6] you deleted the word "compulsive" whereas you would have been better to strikethrough, e.g. compulsive. The reason for this is quite obvious. Your sentence is now nonsense, and other editors can not see what I was commenting on.DrChrissy ^(talk) 12:53, 29 August 2015 (UTC)

I would also like to thank Petrarchan47 for that link to links! We should sometimes have more respect for the limited understanding of specialised terminology that the general readership has and how links can be helpful, but need to be used carefully. For me, the term "conspecific" is a perfectly acceptable way to condense "a member of the same species". It took many reverts/editing of my edits including "conspecific" for me to realise that I misjudged the general readership's understanding of the term and their lack of desire to chase the link. Now I usually write "...[conspecific] (a member of the same species)" the first time it appears in the article.DrChrissy ^(talk) 13:07, 29 August 2015 (UTC)

JonRichfield, you either ignore the content discussed here, or did not read it, when you state, "out-of-context views". We have experts who call for food labels, based on the glyphosate WHO results, and secondary sources reporting on it. The content is precisely on topic. Even without that discussion, food production and glyphosate tolerance are facts that are part of the article, hence why we can have 1 sentence in the controversy section, otherwise the section is not complete.prokaryotes (talk) 01:43, 30 August 2015 (UTC)

prokaryotes try to understand the concept of context; it is not a matter of what pushes your personal views or presses your personal buttons, nor even what the topic discussed here is all about when that topic material is being forced in by people who refuse to keep it in the context of the article specifically addressing it. Context is rather how material fits into the article. Here it does not fit, as long as there is a different article that does indeed fit. This article is about Genetically_modified_food. It is not about Genetically modified food controversies, which please note, is an article with its own content and contexts. Neither the fact that your designated authorities, nor whether any authorities called for food labels, is relevant to this article. Just because the content you are pushing mentions food does not mean that it is on topic at all; that is what context is all about. Try again. Harder. I see that some participants here say "...Genetically modified food controversies is a poorly formed article, a spinoff that fractured this main article...". But that is irrelevant, whether true or not. The place to fix it is in the poorly formed article, not this one. JonRichfield (talk) 07:02, 30 August 2015 (UTC)

The article contains a controversy section ... Hence, you argument this article is not about controversy is mood.prokaryotes (talk) 07:04, 30 August 2015 (UTC)

I see that the recent rfc partially addressing the content of the controversy section was archived without close. There were many policy-based votes in favor of moving some safety information out of the 'controversy' section. Talk:Genetically modified food/Archive 9. I also see that the archive box on this page is misleading, with the most recent link showing '2011-' and linking to archive 4, when there are multiple archives from the past few months.Dialectric (talk) 12:10, 30 August 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose. The article is about genetically modified foods, not genetically modified crops. I have seen no evidence that glyphosate is ever present in the harvested foodstuffs, as sold for consumption. Maproom (talk) 08:17, 1 September 2015 (UTC)

There are many studies in those regards, i.e. here (61 cites). Though, the point here is more about general findings, which affects both crops and foods. Also see the recent news, Regulators may recommend testing food for glyphosate residues.prokaryotes (talk) 11:18, 1 September 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose per JonRichfield and Maproom aptly stated. On a side note, this is clearly a WP:MEDRS-related issue, as carcinogens are obviously within its purview. Discussion of glyphosate should remain in said article. FoCuS contribs; talk to me! 00:25, 4 September 2015 (UTC)
• Strong oppose because this is an article about the food, not GMO-related controversies. Say the GMO industry was the primary industry abusing animals, I still wouldn't think the animal abuse controversy would belong here, because it's only indirectly related. Criticism about the pesticide used with GMOs is indirect, and thus does not belong on an article about GMO food. --Iamozy (talk) 17:36, 8 September 2015 (UTC)

Iamozy, many GMO's carry a resistant gene, and are marketed together with pesticides. In 2007, glyphosate was the most used herbicide in the United States agricultural sector, with 180 to 185 million pounds (82,000 to 84,000 tonnes) applied. And what do you mean with, Criticism about the pesticide used with GMOs is indirect? prokaryotes (talk) 09:28, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

• Support, but in summary, with the details in Genetically modified food controversies Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz Username:Chatul (talk) 22:02, 17 September 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose per Iamozy. This article is about the food itself, not about the different controversies surrounding it. There is a dedicated article for such content located at Genetically modified food controversies, where all controversies can be described in full detail. -ExParte ^{talk | contribs} 02:17, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

Arbcom, requests for cases

A request for an Arbcom [7] case and a AE request to apply pseudoscience discretionary sanctions [8] have been filed that may affect this article. All editors wishing to make a comment should visit the pages linked to. AlbinoFerret 16:59, 8 September 2015 (UTC)

The AE request was closed and the Arbcom request is still open and accepting statements. AlbinoFerret 02:36, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

Additional high-quality sources for GMO articles that provide a balanced view

Much of the contentious editing activity surrounding our GMO-related articles stems from two recurring, polarizing editor concerns:

1. the quality and summarizing of scientific sources, particularly around the issue of GM food safety (in the Talk pages, "mainstream scientific position" and characterizations of views as "FRINGE" are central to recent heated debates);

2. the independence and reliability of secondary sources, the weight given to content items, and editor behavior, viewed in the context of WP:ADVOCACY - claims are made of anti-GMO POV-pushing against editors who seek to include content deemed to be FRINGE, and to a lesser degree, of corporate shilling and the like against those seen as actively supporting GMOs and the biotech industry.

One particularly effective result of one side of these debates dominating, is the routine labeling of content that may appear to challenge the safety and viability of GMOs as "controversial," because they are viewed as going against the mainstream science - content and interrelated articles are organized along these lines, segregating the controversial from other content, presumably as a way to avoid giving undue (reader-misleading) emphasis to the controversial views.

Fortunately, for GMO topics, we do have quite definitive, reliable, independent secondary sources - US Library of Congress (LOC) research reports, and the LOC's Congressional Research Service (CRS) reports - that cover much of the content in question. This is the research used by congressional lawmakers and other branches of the US federal government - when the US Supreme Court requests GMO background from the LOC, CRS reports are exactly what the court consults - so there can hardly be an argument against their highest standing for our editorial purposes.

Two excerpts illustrate the framing and substance of recent LOC/CRS findings for two key areas of our GMO content, food safety and labeling:

• 2014: The Library of Congress > Law Library > Research & Reports > Legal Reports > Restrictions on Genetically Modified Organisms: United States: Public and Scholarly Opinion: B. Scholarly Opinion: (section in its entirety) "Several scientific organizations in the US have issued studies or statements regarding the safety of GMOs indicating that there is no evidence that GMOs present unique safety risks compared to conventionally bred products. These include the National Research Council,[12] the American Association for the Advancement of Science,[13] and the American Medical Association.[14]

"Groups in the US opposed to GMOs include some environmental organizations,[15] organic farming organizations,[16] and consumer organizations.[17] A substantial number of legal academics have criticized the US’s approach to regulating GMOs.[18]"

• 2011: Congressional Research Service: Agricultural Biotechnology: Background and Recent Issues: Other Selected Issues: Food Safety and Labeling: (first three paragraphs of the section) "In the United States, many consumers may be wary of GE foods out of fear that introduced genes could prove allergenic, introduce increased toxicity, or otherwise be harmful to human health. Some critics express concern that FDA is placing all the responsibility on manufacturers to generate safety data, as it does normally under its pre-market approval system, and is reviewing only the conclusions of industry-sponsored studies, rather than conducting its own tests. They also believe that the process lacks transparency and adequate public scrutiny of data. Others defend the current system. They counter that additional testing and oversight are unnecessary because all foods must meet the same rigorous federal safety standards regardless of whether or not they are genetically engineered.

"In July 2004, the Institute of Medicine and the National Research Council (IOM/NRC) of the National Academies of Science released a report generally supporting the proponents’ view. The IOM/NRC found that food safety should be assessed based on the composition of the altered food (e.g., whether it contains new compounds, unusually high levels of nutrients, or other significant traits) rather than how the food was produced (by genetic engineering or conventional methods). However, the IOM/NRC determined that the safety of modified foods should be assessed on a case-by-case basis and cautioned that scientists’ current ability to predict adverse consequences of genetic changes is limited.[72]

U.S. policy also does not require GE-derived foods to be so labeled as long as they are substantially the same as their more conventional counterparts. Nonetheless, some consumer groups continue to seek mandatory labeling of all GE foods. These groups argue that U.S. consumers, like their EU counterparts, should have an opportunity to see all relevant information on a label so that they can make food choices based on their own views about its perceived quality or safety. The food industry generally opposes compulsory labeling. It contends that consumers might interpret GE labels as “warning labels” implying that the foods are less safe or nutritious than conventional foods, when the industry believes the preponderance of science indicates otherwise. The industry also has asserted that mandatory labeling would require development of a costly and possibly unattainable system to ensure that GE and non-GE foods remain segregated from the farm to the store, with no added benefit to the consumer. The industry has asserted that if consumers want to purchase GE-free products, the market will support a voluntary system, as exists for organic foods (where rules already prohibit GE foods from being called “organic”).[73]"

These excerpts summarize the GMO areas of food safety and labeling in a plainly stated and neutral manner. There is no broad framing of "controversiality," and no finding of scientific consensus.

The use of strong framing language, such as labeling what are referred to in the CRS source as "issues" - important concerns - as "controversies," and characterizing a variety of noteworthy positions and findings as FRINGE minority views - both common in our GMO content and discussions - are directly opposed by the presentation in these sources.

The reports generally frame the issues in terms of the views of consumers (the public) and the views of industry, presented equally, and of the regulatory frameworks and regulations that ultimately determine product safety, product availability, and which scientific findings and positions are applied to control research and commercial development.

Given these gold-standard references, our central policies of verifiability and neutrality require us to base our content - including in-article and inter-article organization - on their content, as far as facts, tone and weight, unless differing sources of equivalent or better quality are presented.

By using these best available sources, a good deal of the fuel for the contentious debates that continue to create an adversarial editing environment around GMO topics, can be eliminated squarely within core policy: interpretation and analysis of scientific findings, regulations, and the relative standing of different actors and their views can be left entirely to secondary sources that explicitly address them, as our core policies mandate.

RESEARCH NOTE: The LOC has a set of individual "Restrictions on Genetically Modified Organisms" legal reports, in the general form:

• Introduction
• Public and Scholarly Opinion
• Structure of Pertinent Legislation
• Restrictions on Research, Production, and Marketing
• Restrictions on Releasing Organisms into the Environment
• Restrictions on GMOs in Foodstuffs
• Liability Regime
• Prominent Judicial Decisions

for Argentina, Belgium, Brazil, Canada, China, Egypt, England and Wales, France, Germany, Israel, Italy, Japan, Lebanon, Mexico, the Netherlands, New Zealand, Norway, the Russian Federation, South Africa, South Korea, Sweden, the United States, and the European Union; there is also a report on International Protocols. CRS reports are confidential unless individually released and published; relevant available reports can be found through web searches; the available "Agricultural Biotechnology: Background and Recent Issues" (2011) is 40 pages of material, prepared for members and committees of the US Congress, directly relevant to our GMO articles. LOC/CRS reports are fully footnoted, which confers credibility on hundreds of additional cited sources should they be used to provide more detail. --Tsavage (talk) 13:58, 27 September 2015 (UTC)

Two additions to your research:

• As of today, over half of the EU has opted to go GMO-free: Fifteen of the 28 EU member nations are seeking to keep genetically modified organisms out of all or part of their territory, as the deadline for opting out of new European legislation on GMO crops nears, the bloc's executive arm said Thursday.[9][10]
• The Krimsky meta-review of GMO food safety studies from Tufts is now online. This is the highest quality source according to Wikpedia's highest standard (MEDRS), and includes all studies and reviews on GMO's/health from 2008 to the present. petrarchan47คุก 01:51, 2 October 2015 (UTC)

A couple of comments on the above.

• Per Wikipedia's health-related content sourcing guidelines, its far from clear to me that Tsavage has made his point by counterpoising the opinions of "the National Research Council,[12] the American Association for the Advancement of Science,[13] and the American Medical Association.[14] against "some environmental organizations,[15] organic farming organizations,[16] ...consumer organizations [and] A substantial number of legal academics". A review of MEDRS may be in order here. Will be be quoting Carl Sagan in constitutional law discussions as proof of a lack of consensus among legal scholars?

• Counterpoising the position of "industry" with that of "consumers" does not negate or in any way offset the point above. In fact, the CRS is essentially saying that the sources that Wikipedia's medical sourcing guidelines hold as reliable are opposed by lay groups, activists, and lawyers, three groups whose expertise is not recongnized by MEDRS or by scientists generally. Put another way, the opinion of non-scientists is important to determining political policy, but it has nothing to do with determining "scientific consensus" as required by MEDRS.

• The same applies to "half of EU countries opting to go GMO-free". This is a political decision, made by politicians, not a measure of scientific consensus

Several state legislatures in the US south have voted that creation science and not evolution should be taught in public schools. Clearly we all understand that legislative bodies are not reliable sources for scientific consensus and that there is no lack of "scientific consensus" regarding evolution, whatever the position of southern state legislatures. The same applies here.

• The Krimsy study was published in a journal with an impact factor of 2.4. If it is to be used as evidence of a vigourous dissent to the safety of GMO foods among scientists, why was wasn't he able to get it published in Nature, Science, or another major journal? The publication of this review in an obscure journal isn't proof of substantial dissent, it's evidence that the position taken in the paper is outside the mainstream.

4.16.40.75 (talk) 14:50, 13 October 2015 (UTC)

(←) @4.16.40.75 Regarding your first two points, concerning Library of Congress/Congressional Research service material, I presented excerpts, and further highlighted specific items, to provide an example of what this highest quality secondary source material - the best available so far - has to say on the GM food topic. It speaks for itself:

• where we say "controversies," the best available source says, "issues"
• where we say "scientific consensus," the best available source says, "Several scientific organizations ... have issued studies or statements"
• where we frame opposing viewpoints in terms of advocacy groups and science, the best available source refers to "consumers" and "industry"
• where we say that there is scientific consensus on GM food safety, the best available source says "the industry believes the preponderance of science indicates [that GM food is as safe or nutritious as conventional food]"

Comparing how we have been presenting facts in the article, and how the best available sources present the same material, we see a marked difference in language. With this best available material, we are policy-bound to follow the sources and not to create novel interpretations, conclusions, or nuanced wording. Your counterpoising argument would complicate a simple line of reasoning without altering the conclusion: here as elsewhere, policy dictates that we must literally follow the reliable secondary sources. Unless we can find issue with the reliability of the source, policy says the highest quality source must rule. --Tsavage (talk) 22:25, 19 October 2015 (UTC)

• Comment: Something else to consider in this topic area, as the Arb case is winding down, is content related to the social and political issues - not just in the US, but in the EU as well. There have been notable articles about the gulf between scientific data and public perception re: the safety of eating GMO foods on the market. I think encyclopedic coverage of GMOs should discuss these phenomena and the various advocacy positions - and not just the science. The more I read about the topic, the more it seems like public concerns are focusing less on the safety of eating currently available GMO foods and more on the environmental issues associated with the entire GMO industry - from biodiversity, to ecological problems, to harmful pesticides, to superweeds, to monopolization of food supply, to very restrictive interpretation and enforcement of biotech patents, and even discussions about the independence of researchers and studies in the arena. Some of these issues are touched on in the "controversies" article - but not in a very cogent manner. These are not just "controversies" but broad societal issues being discussed. So I'm saying we need to start thinking about how and where to integrate these issues into the GM suite of articles. Minor4th 00:18, 20 October 2015 (UTC)