Talk:Cro-Magnon

Chronology And Geography Of Neanderthal Admixture

"AMH are estimated to have marginally interbred with Neanderthals during about 65 to 47 ka, most likely in West Asia soon after leaving Africa.[12][13] Ancestral West Eurasians began to move into Europe beginning about 45 ka. Neanderthals became extinct shortly after this time, presumably being outcompeted or actively killed by the advancing EEMH. Admixture with Neanderthals appears to cease almost entirely after 45 ka, in spite of several millennia of continued co-existence of AMH and Neanderthals in Europe.[14]"

There is another alternative - that admixture with Neanderthals happened within Africa, and that it were the most admixed with Neanderthals who left first, and ended up moving farthest. Meanwhile, AMH's within Africa would be more and more AMH and less Neanderthal - however you'd still find small traces of Neanderthal dna. This would help explain the observed "Admixture with Neanderthals appears to cease almost entirely after 45 ka, in spite of several millennia of continued co-existence of AMH and Neanderthals in Europe.[14]". Maybe they never or rarely admixed with Neanderthals outside of Africa, beyond their first contacts within Africa. As a result, higher percentages of Neanderthal dna in the remotest places like Scandinavia, Australia and the Americas, would imply an early arrival of the people in question. High Neanderthal admixture would mean they arrived there first, before anyone else did. 83.84.100.133 (talk) 18:03, 7 January 2020 (UTC)

As far as I know, that has not been proposed by any reliable source (and is certainly not a notable scholarly opinion). (For one thing, there is currently no evidence that Neandrthals were ever in Africa, including North Africa.) Unless there is a reliable source that explicitly suggests that scenario you mention, there is no basis to add it to an article, because it would be "original research" (WP:OR) which is against/not allowed by Wikipedia policies. Skllagyook (talk) 21:05, 7 January 2020 (UTC)

Orphaned references in European early modern humans

I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of European early modern humans's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.

Reference named "Higham2006":

• From Peștera Muierilor: Higham, T; Ramsey, Cb; Karavanić, I; Smith, Fh; Trinkaus, E (January 2006). "Revised direct radiocarbon dating of the Vindija G1 Upper Paleolithic Neandertals". Proc. Natl. Acad. Sci. U.S.A. 103 (3): 553–7. Bibcode:2006PNAS..103..553H. doi:10.1073/pnas.0510005103. PMC 1334669. PMID 16407102.{{cite journal}}: CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link)
• From Cro-Magnon: Higham, T.; Ramsey, B.; Karavanić, I.; Smith, H.; Trinkaus, E. (Jan 2006). "Revised direct radiocarbon dating of the Vindija G1 Upper Paleolithic Neandertals" (Free full text). Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences of the United States of America. 103 (3): 553–557. Bibcode:2006PNAS..103..553H. doi:10.1073/pnas.0510005103. ISSN 0027-8424. PMC 1334669. PMID 16407102.

Reference named "pnas":

• From Cro-Magnon: Rougier H; Milota S; Rodrigo R; et al. (January 2007). "Peştera cu Oase 2 and the cranial morphology of early modern Europeans". Proc. Natl. Acad. Sci. U.S.A. 104 (4): 1165–70. Bibcode:2007PNAS..104.1165R. doi:10.1073/pnas.0610538104. PMC 1783092. PMID 17227863. {{cite journal}}: Unknown parameter |author-separator= ignored (help)
• From List of human evolution fossils: Smith TM, Tafforeau P, Reid DJ; et al. (December 2010). "Dental evidence for ontogenetic differences between modern humans and Neanderthals". Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences of the United States of America. 107 (49): 20923–8. doi:10.1073/pnas.1010906107. PMC 3000267. PMID 21078988. {{cite journal}}: Explicit use of et al. in: |author= (help)CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link)

Reference named "preddog":

• From Cro-Magnon: Viegas, Jennifer (October 7, 2011). "Prehistoric dog found with mammoth bone in mouth". Discovery News. Retrieved October 11, 2011.
• From Moravia: Viegas, Jennifer (7 October 2011). "Prehistoric dog found with mammoth bone in mouth". Discovery News. Retrieved 11 October 2011.

I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT⚡ 15:11, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

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It has been suggested that this article be merged with Cro-Magnon

•  Disagree - Absolutely against. Cro-Magnon Man is an outdated and imprecise name, which should only be used for the original finds from Cro-Magnon. The difference should be made clearer though. --Joostik (talk) 18:56, 31 January 2018 (UTC)
• Agree. Two articles of the same topic should be merged. Cro-magnon is not an oudated name, still very much in use as evidenced by Google Scholar hit which gives so many scholarly references including publications in 2018; "European early modern humans" is (grammatically sounds rather odd anyway) rarely used. This makes the reference The Oxford Companion to Archaeology by Fagan (1996), which states "The name [Cro-Magnon] is not commonly encountered in modern professional literature in English," itself outdated and factually wrong. Chhandama (talk) 03:57, 10 February 2018 (UTC)

The statement "European early modern humans is rarely used", is completely wrong. A simple Google search returns 2.1 million hits while Cro Magnon only returns 1.4 million hits. A Google scholar search of European early modern humans returns 909.000 hits while Cro Magnon returns only 21,700 hits.2601:405:4300:DB28:5D3D:5970:4FBE:B652 (talk) 07:26, 1 April 2018 (UTC)

I don't know how you used your Google searches. But my Google search for "European early modern humans" returns 21,600 results; while "cro-magnon" has 16,50,000 (76 times!). And my Google Scholar gives 317 and 18,400 (58 times) results respectively. The statistics support the statement that EADH is much more rarely used than CM, and that usage of CM is still relevant as it is. Chhandama (talk) 02:39, 12 May 2018 (UTC)

"Cro-Magnon" getting more results than "EEMH" is hardly surprising.

• because EEMH is the current scholarly term, in use since the 1990s or so.
• "Cro-Magnon" refers not just to EEMH, it is and was variously used to refer to: the Cro-Magnon site, the individual Cro-Magnon fossils (Cro-Magnon 1 to Cro-Magnon 5), anatomically modern humans in general, and European anatomically modern humans. This ambiguous usage is precisely why the term is now deprecated.

It is conceivable that "Cro-Magnon Man" can get an entry separate from EEMH, but such an article will still need to be written, as the existing "Cro-Magnon" page was just an obvious WP:CFORK of this page. --dab (𒁳) 12:02, 20 May 2018 (UTC)

Re-erecting Cro-Magnon?

If no-none mind, I would like to erect a Cro-Magnon page distinct from this one, describing the Cro-Magnons as a particular subset of EEMHs. I think it would be worthwhile to discuss exactly what goes in such an article first though. Obviously, the Cro-Magnon rock shelter is relevant, and so is various similar finds like [Mladeč caves]] and other Aurignacian and Gravettian sites. I am planning to exclude earlier finds like Peștera cu Oase (who appear to have had a neanderthal great-great grandfather), and later (Magdalenian) finds.

I'm not sure whether Cro-Magnon or Cro-Magnon man would be best suted for such an article. I'm leaning towards the latter, leaving Cro-Magnon a disambiguation page. Petter Bøckman (talk) 08:41, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

This article describes Cro-Magnon as a synonym of EEMH – is that not the case? – Joe (talk) 14:57, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

No, the EEMH is a wider sample than the Cro-Magnons. EEMH includes finds like the early Peștera cu Oase-finds and Grimaldi man and Chancelade man, all of which were quite distinct from the Cro-Magnon 1-5 and related finds (Mladeč, Předmostí and others).

Complicating the picture, the term Cro-Magnon itself has gone through quite a bit of transformation through history. Until WWII, it was used for the original Cro-Magnon and related finds. In the late 70s and 80s, it was used a a very broad category, essentially covering EEMH and sometimes anatomically modern human world wide, while it at the same time was used specifically for the people of the distinct Middle Stone Age culture in Europe. This too should be covered, but it isn't natural to cover this under the EEMH-article (indieed, the bits that were covering this were edited out as irrelevant).

Besides, as stated over, Cro-Magnon is the most widely used term, I fully expect there should be an article on them, rather than just a redirect. Petter Bøckman (talk) 15:11, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

Well, it should be made clear that usage differs between authors. Some do indeed use "Cro Magnons" as a synonym of "EEMH". If there are other conventions, the prospective aricle should make very explicit whose terminology is being used, and what other terminology exists, closely interlinking the material presented with what is on this page, avoiding scope overlap and contradictions. To begin with, it might be better to discuss terminological differences here, but if necessary, a separate page can be branched out using WP:SS.

My impression from what I have seen of the relevant literature is that, indeed, "Cro-Magnon" is "most widely used" historically, i.e. in literature before 2000, but this may be merely a change of preferred terminology over time. As long as it is merely about this, no separate page is warranted. EEMH is preferred 21st-century terminology, but I fully expect a palaeoanthropologist who was socialized in the 20th century to feel that this is a neologism and that the "familiar" term is Cro-Magnons. --dab (𒁳) 14:13, 27 September 2018 (UTC)

Interesting. I'm not that old, but Cro-Magnon was once (not too long ago) such a commonly-heard term, I figured it would have its own article, or at least a clear explanation as to why it doesn't have a page of its own. 71.226.227.121 (talk) 13:56, 18 May 2019 (UTC)

It's a WP:SYNONYM, as explained right there in the lead section. I don't see how the explanation can get an clearer than it is. --dab (𒁳) 12:02, 11 September 2019 (UTC)

How would that be any different from this page? Booger-mike (talk) 19:26, 13 February 2021 (UTC)

Scope

Does anyone know when European early modern humans become European modern humans? At what time period does this article stop? Does it end at the Mesolithic or at the end of the Stone Age?   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  16:01, 3 August 2020 (UTC)

Erik Trinkaus appears to define European early modern humans (EEMHs) as the early modern humans of Early Upper Paleolithic Europe, from around 44,000 BP to 33,000 BP. He does not appear to consider the Gravettians and other Middle Upper Paleolithic populations post-33,000 BP as EEMHs.

"A consideration of the morphological aspects of the earliest modern humans in Europe (more than 33,000 B.P.) and the subsequent Gravettian human remains indicates that they possess an anatomical pattern congruent with the autapomorphic (derived) morphology of the earliest (Middle Paleolithic) African modern humans... The primary sample of analysis consists of the EEMHs, those before 33 ka B.P. and therefore predating the Gravettian (or Middle Upper Paleolithic) populations of Europe... " - Trinkaus, Erik (March 9, 2007). "European early modern humans and the fate of the Neandertals". Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences of the United States of America. 104 (18). National Academy of Sciences: 7367–7372. doi:10.1073/pnas.0702214104.

"The earliest modern Europeans are represented by a series of fossils, between  ≈  40,000 and  ≈  34,000 years ago... The “before” sample is the Middle Paleolithic Neandertals, those >44,000 BP. The “after” sample is the Gravettian (or Mid Upper Paleolithic) modern humans, those between 33,000 and 24,000 BP. The “transitional” samples consist of the European Late Neandertals, those < 44,000 BP, and the European early ­modern humans, those >33,000 BP." - Trinkaus, Erik (2011). "Late Neandertals and Early Modern Humans in Europe, Population Dynamics and Paleobiology". In Condemi, Silvana; Weniger, Gerd-Christian (eds.). Continuity and Discontinuity in the Peopling of Europe. Springer. pp. 315–329. doi:10.1007/978-94-007-0492-3_24. ISBN 978-94-007-0491-6. ISSN 1877-9077.

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

• Europe20000ya.png

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 19:40, 5 September 2020 (UTC)

Terminology

Who was it who proposed "Homo sapiens cro-magnonensis"? Booger-mike (talk) 00:07, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

I mean there were tons of names proposed for all these random European specimens. "H. s. cro-magnonensis" was first used by William King Gregory in 1921 p. 180, and he also proposed "H. s. Brünn-Predmost" and "H. s. Galley Hill"   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  00:37, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

Thanks, shouldn't it be on the page? And if it is, I can't fine it. Booger-mike (talk) 20:02, 19 December 2020 (UTC)

No it's not. As I said, there're tons of names, and I don't know of anyone who's made an exhaustive list of them, so it'd be impossible to have one here, and I've arbitrarily drawn the line at 6. You can add them if you'd like (I've given you the source and everything)   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  16:41, 20 December 2020 (UTC)

Okay, thank you. Booger-mike (talk) 19:27, 13 February 2021 (UTC)

Not quite a GAN peer review

I have never done a GAN peer review before and have had just one article achieve GA. So I don't feel competent to do a formal peer review as yet but I thought perhaps the nominator might appreciate some feedback given how long this article has been in the pending queue.

First and foremost, to my eye the article meets each of the GA criteria.

I noticed a few items that caused me concern and that a more established reviewer might not accept:

Chronology

• any words like "probably" or "likely" must be supported by citation (I have already tagged one), as it is not for Wikipedia to speculate.

The one you tagged, the ref is at the end of the next sentence. We don't need at least one ref at the end of every sentence   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  14:25, 22 December 2020 (UTC)

• more care needs to be taken with colours. I am not colour blind but I am unable to distinguish the colours used in Image:Europe20000ya.png (LGM refugia).

pink and brown?   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  14:25, 22 December 2020 (UTC)

Right now, it is dark pink and not-so-dark pink. It wasn't until I read the accompanying text and knew what to look for that I could see it. WP:think of the reader, the distinction needs to be more evident. --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 16:20, 22 December 2020 (UTC)

• "After 40,000 years ago with the onset of Heinrich event 4, the Aurignacian proper evolved perhaps in South-Central Europe, " I really wanted to see at least a footnote to tell me what made the Heinrich event particularly significant. If it is significant, it needs explaining; if it is not, then leave it out.

Heinrich event 4 is a really cold period, that's about it   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  14:25, 22 December 2020 (UTC)

Yes, I inferred that this would be the effect of the iceberg drift, but its a non-sequitur. If you even said " After 40,000 years ago, around the time of the climate change associated with the Heinrich 4 event, the Aurignacian proper evolved [emerged? Aurignacian technology evolved?] --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 16:20, 22 December 2020 (UTC)

• • In an article like this, extra care needs to be taken with words like 'evolved', which have a specific technical meaning. As it stands, it implies speciation, which I doubt is intended.

it's only used in reference to technology   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  14:25, 22 December 2020 (UTC)

Then the text should say so. --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 16:20, 22 December 2020 (UTC)

the Chronology section already says these are all industries/cultures (like "the Gravettian culture" or "'Aurignacoid' or 'Epi-Aurignacian' tools are identified as late as..."   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  22:56, 22 December 2020 (UTC)

• • "it is unclear when the Aurignacian went extinct" - this definitely implies a distinct species. If 'culture' is intended, then it needs to be explicit.

the word extinct existed before the concept of species   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  14:25, 22 December 2020 (UTC)

That was then, this is now. --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 16:20, 22 December 2020 (UTC)

I believe it's widely understood that cultures and languages can go extinct (as it's the most popularly known consequence of imperialism and globalization in general, such as the uncountable now-extinct Native American tribes)   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  22:56, 22 December 2020 (UTC)

• • "Hypotheses for Gravettian genesis include evolution": is this really intended to say that they (or the Aurignacians) were not H Sapiens? because that is certainly its implication.

how is that implied?   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  14:25, 22 December 2020 (UTC)

The E word. --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 16:20, 22 December 2020 (UTC)

I believe it's also widely understood that cultures and languages can evolve (as cultural appropriation/diffusion is another popularly known consequence of imperialism and globalization, such as with Spanglish or Christmas)   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  22:56, 22 December 2020 (UTC)

• "The Alps were also covered in glaciers, and most of Europe was polar desert," Polar desert? really? or just high steppe?

source said polar desert   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  14:25, 22 December 2020 (UTC)

• "Solutrean peoples inhabited the permafrost zone, whereas Epi-Gravettian peoples appear to have stuck to less harsh, seasonally frozen areas." Citation needed, especially given that it is followed by "Relatively few sites are known through this time".

citation is already given at the end of the next sentence   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  14:25, 22 December 2020 (UTC)

• "Starting during the Older Dryas roughly 14,000 years ago, Final Magdalenian traditions appear,": should this link to Basque prehistory#Magdalenian culture? Certainly "Final Magdalenian" begs for definition.

I figured it was pretty self explanatory, the last peoples who produced Magdalenian lithics   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  14:25, 22 December 2020 (UTC)

Ok, I missed that Magdalenian is linked in the lead. It is a big article. --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 16:20, 22 December 2020 (UTC)

• "Europe was completely re-peopled during the Holocene climatic optimum from 9 to 5 thousand years ago." definitely needs a citation!

at the end of the next sentence   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  14:25, 22 December 2020 (UTC)

Fair enough, it is a style thing. In an academic paper, one citation at the end of the paragraph would be considered entirely adequate – especially if using the style Dunkleosteus (1977) inline. In Wikipedia, however, my inclination would be to overcite, especially when the more substantive assertions are being made. Your call. --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 16:20, 22 December 2020 (UTC)

Demographics

• "The archaeological record indicates that the overwhelming majority of Palaeolithic people (both Neanderthals and modern humans) died before reaching the age of 40, with few elderly individuals recorded." Citation?

at the end of the next sentence   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  14:25, 22 December 2020 (UTC)

Biology

• "In early Upper Palaeolithic Western Europe, 20 men and 10 women were estimated" etc. Are all these estimates supported by ref 27? If so, I would repeat the citation, others might not.

if I put a ref at the end of the every sentence it would be impossible to read   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  14:25, 22 December 2020 (UTC)

Physical attributes

• "It was generally assumed that EEMH," I would preface this with "Prior to modern DNA analysis, ..."

done   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  14:25, 22 December 2020 (UTC)

Genetics

"Initial genomic studies on the earliest EEMH in 2014," which?

I don't know what you want here. Should I also specify which 2016 study I'm referring to?   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  14:25, 22 December 2020 (UTC)

It is essentially the same style issue as already discussed: how often to cite. When I see text like "Initial studies ..." without citation, I infer WP:WEASEL. In this specific case, if there could be any doubt as to which study, then cite. --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 16:20, 22 December 2020 (UTC)

Culture

• "the terms "Middle Palaeolithic" and "Upper Palaeolithic" were created"..."the transition was dubbed"... etc. All well known but nevertheless needs citations.

at the end of the paragraph   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  14:25, 22 December 2020 (UTC)

• "It has typically been assumed that EEMH closely studied " Assumed by whom?

the source said it as a blanket statement, as in, by people who study this kind of thing, it is generally assumed   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  14:25, 22 December 2020 (UTC)

The WP:WEASEL problem again. So again, I would cite. --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 16:20, 22 December 2020 (UTC)

• "There is much evidence" Where? [I realised after writing this comment that the sentence is intended to introduce the evidence in the succeeding sentences. Maybe it is a bit too long? Probably this comment can be ignored.]

That's specifically in reference to game drive systems, and I'm not going to list out every example because there are a lot of them   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  14:25, 22 December 2020 (UTC)

• Portable art: some of the pieces in the clothing section would show a greater variety of theme. Of course they can't be displayed twice but maybe it would be appropriate to add a note to that effect?

I don't understand   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  14:25, 22 December 2020 (UTC)

When I wrote that, I was responding to a line of pieces in the obese Venus style, with no gracile example like the Venus of Brassempouy or the Vogelherd Cave animals. But of course that first section is about the Venus figurines. So, short of adding a section lead (to what is already a very long article), my comment must die. --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 16:20, 22 December 2020 (UTC)

• • More generally, I would have used the image column at the RHS more.

what're RHS and image column?   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  14:25, 22 December 2020 (UTC)

Right Hand Side (which is where most image thumbnails go). On reflection, it wouldn't work. Strike two. --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 16:20, 22 December 2020 (UTC)

• "about 60 batons have been hypothesised" If the source is the same as the end of the paragraph, no harm to repeat it IMO.

might as well stay consistent. I can't have a reference at the end of every sentence because that'd be hard to read   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  14:25, 22 December 2020 (UTC)

• "In terms of colour psychology, popular hypotheses" Citation? Delete as wp:trivia, synth?

these are the 2 hypotheses: either the color red was symbolic or red ochre was multi-purposeful. The color symbolism is dealt with by color psychology   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  14:25, 22 December 2020 (UTC)

Pop psychology worries me. It seems out of place in what is a clearly scientific article. Your call. --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 16:20, 22 December 2020 (UTC)

• Simple loom technology: "have also been interpreted"... " may have been"

I thought it was too much repetition of "may have been"   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  14:25, 22 December 2020 (UTC)

No, it's the WP:WEASEL problem again. --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 16:20, 22 December 2020 (UTC)

Language

" humans, and the present-day variation of the FOXP2 gene" Rewrite " humans as the present-day variation of the FOXP2 gene"?

done   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  14:25, 22 December 2020 (UTC)

I hope that regular editors will find these comments useful. --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 13:00, 22 December 2020 (UTC)

Issues

Reading through the article, i noticed that none of the sources used contain the terms Early European modern humans/European Early modern humans/EEMH in their titles. In fact, as far as i can tell, barely any of the sources mention "EEMHs" at all. It seems to me that "EEMHs" is more of a generic term for the peoples of Upper Paleolithic Europe, rather than an actual concept in itself. The term "EEMH" does not appear to have been subjected to much notable coverage. Erik Trinkaus has written an article about it, but contrary to this Wikipedia article, he does not count the Gravettians and later cultures as consisting of EEMHs. Despite the concerns mentioned above, this Wikipedia article is certainly interesting, well written and clearly based on reliable sources. It think it has potential to qualify for GA status. We should however try to do something about the synthesis issues. While term the "EEMH" is rarely mentioned in the listed sources, several of the sources mention the term "Upper Paleolithic Europe". Perhaps moving the title to Upper Paleolithic Europe would help with reducing synthesis? This would of course necessitate a few tweaks, but i don't think it would require that much work. Krakkos (talk) 15:09, 26 December 2020 (UTC)

That's not what Trinkaus was saying, he said "The primary sample of analysis consists of the EEMHs, those before 33 ka B.P. and therefore predating the Gravettian," so he wasn't excluding pre-Gravettian modern humans from the label EEMH, it's just his study was only investigating pre-Gravettian EEMH. EEMH is basically synonymous with Upper Paleolithic Europeans   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  15:21, 26 December 2020 (UTC)

So how about modifying the opening phrase so that it reads: "Early European modern humans (EEMH), Cro-Magnons or Upper Paleolithic Europeans were the first early modern humans (Homo sapiens) to settle in Europe, ..." (even if it means creating a redirect article at Upper Paleolithic Europeans). --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 16:06, 26 December 2020 (UTC)

It'd be better if we just did "EEMH produced Palaeolithic cultures" → "EEMH produced Upper Palaeolithic cultures"   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  16:55, 26 December 2020 (UTC)

Trinkaus (2007) examined both pre-Gravettian and Gravettian samples. It appears that he only labels the pre-Gravettian (pre-33,000 BP) samples as "EEMH". Putting Trinkaus aside, the fact remains that almost none (if any) of the sources used in this Wikipedia article use the term "Early European modern humans"/"EEMH". It seems like this article has been largely synthesized from sources which do not discuss "EEMHs". In essence, this article is about the early modern humans of Upper Paleolithic Europe. The term "Upper Paleolithic Europe" appears to have far greater notability than "Early European modern humans"/"EEMH". I think changing the title to "Upper Paleolithic Europe" could help with reducing synthesis. The term "Early European modern humans" suggests that these were a single population of humans, but genetic research has shown that this is not the case. The term "Upper Paleolithic Europe" is less suggestive, and thus more appropriate in my opinion. Krakkos (talk) 11:10, 27 December 2020 (UTC)

• If we move to Upper Palaeolithic Europe, should we use the abbrevation Upper Palaeolithic Europeans UPEs just to save on space? That's not an "official" abbreviation I don't think (maybe vaguely familiar, but unsure?)   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  06:55, 26 February 2021 (UTC)
• Cro-Magnon (which redirects here) is was what people called EEMH until recently, so I imagine most of the sources use that. As this article is about the palaeoanthropology of the population rather than the period as a whole, I don't see how a move to Upper Palaeolithic Europe would make sense. – Joe (talk) 14:09, 26 February 2021 (UTC)

Upper Paleolithic describes the culture, as opposed to Pleistocene which is a geological time period. Cro-Magnon, EEMH, and Upper Paleolithic Europe are one and the same   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  19:07, 26 February 2021 (UTC)

That's not correct. Upper Palaeolithic is a period (archaeology has a parallel time scale to geology). Cro-Magnons/EEMH were a human population. The (archaeological) cultures would be Aurignacian, Gravettian, etc. Articles on these distinct concepts have different scopes; most obviously in this case, if we had an article on Upper Palaeolithic Europe, it would also cover the surviving Neanderthal populations, which are of course distinct from EEMH. – Joe (talk) 10:14, 27 February 2021 (UTC)

Neanderthals were Middle Paleolithic. The Upper Paleolithic was only produced by modern humans   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  17:07, 27 February 2021 (UTC)

There's some debate, but there were probably at least some relict populations that survived into the Initial Upper Palaeolithic, see Châtelperronian and [1][2][3][4]. I really appreciate your work on palaeoanthropology articles, but I think it would be helpful to remember that these later periods overlap with prehistoric archaeology and that brings another set of concepts in addition to those from palaeontology and geology. I don't think collapsing articles on populations, periods and cultures does justice to the sources or our readers. – Joe (talk) 19:00, 27 February 2021 (UTC)

Upper Paleolithic is essentially used to define any lithic culture which produced a lot of microliths or bladelets, it's not a time interval or in any way related to geology. It's a purely cultural term. The attribution of the Châtelperronian is much debated, and its association with Neanderthals is pretty weak. I don't know of any other arguments for any other human species practicing Upper Paleolithic traditions   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  23:04, 27 February 2021 (UTC)

I think we're talking past each other. All archaeological periods are defined by material culture, because archaeology is the study of material culture: the Upper Pal by blade technology; the Epipal/Mesolithic by microliths; the Neolithic by agriculture; the Chalcolithic by copper; and so on. It is a time interval and my point is precisely that it has nothing to do with geology, because archaeologists use a different time scale to geologists. Similarly, culture has a specific meaning in archaeology (a taxonomic unit rather than a purely chronological one) and the Upper Pal isn't one. – Joe (talk) 13:11, 1 March 2021 (UTC)

Then I don't understand what you mean by "this article is about the palaeoanthropology of the population rather than the period as a whole"   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  18:39, 1 March 2021 (UTC)

We have three separate but overlapping concepts: an archaeological period (the Upper Palaeolithic), the human populations that were alive then (EEMH and possibly Neanderthals), and the cultural industries they produced (Aurignacian, Gravettian, etc). We should maintains separate articles on each and the arguments above for merging or moving this article seem to be conflating them. – Joe (talk) 11:07, 2 March 2021 (UTC)

I don't understand. I'm not saying to merge Aurignacian, Gravettian, etc. into this article, just rename to Upper Paleolithic Europe, since it talks about the people who produced Upper Paleolithic cultures on the European continent   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  17:32, 2 March 2021 (UTC)

But it's about the people, not the period. – Joe (talk) 20:20, 2 March 2021 (UTC)

What else should be included for it to be called Upper Palaeolithic Europe? The people define the period, like Classical antiquity   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  20:29, 5 March 2021 (UTC)

@Joe Roe: Can I move this article to Upper Palaeolithic Europe or do you still contest?   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  18:17, 6 May 2021 (UTC)

I don't think that makes sense, for the reasons I've stated above, and there's clearly not a consensus here to do so. – Joe (talk) 07:38, 7 May 2021 (UTC)

@Joe Roe: I still don't understand what your reason are. What else should be included for it to be called Upper Palaeolithic Europe?   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  22:16, 7 May 2021 (UTC)

It's a different topic... if you wanted to create it, I'd say it should also include information on the chronology, climate, cultures, key sites, that kind of thing. But we'd still need an article on EEMH – a notable concept in palaeoanthropology in its own right. In any case I'm not sure there is any point to going round and reiterating our respective positions again. If you're really set on moving this article, why not start an {{RM}} and get some third opinions? – Joe (talk) 14:53, 8 May 2021 (UTC)

Lede reduction

I removed from the LEDE, the last few sentences that addressed Feminism, Goddess movements, communism vs capitalism, and other theory outside of this article's scope; and that also contained editorializing stated as fact. The same edit addressed the huge SA LINKFARM by my having removed the redundant entries and integrating what I could of the remaining entries into the article, per MoS. This entire edit was reverted. I have changed it back, per WEIGHT, SCOPE; LEDE; and probably FRINGE. There is probably an article where this information fits somewhere, but I do not believe it is here. Also the sub-section where this information was taken from should be drastically trimmed for the same reason. GenQuest ^"scribble" 19:25, 3 January 2021 (UTC)

Sorry if this makes you uncomfortable, but if you take a class on Paleolithic Europe (or even if you just do some light reading on it or youtube or whatever), you will inevitably reach sex cult/porn when you hit the Venus figurines, so I find it's very necessary to address that in its own section, even though we can all clearly agree it's kinda weird. I've reduced its part in the lead to a single sentence with 2 wikilinks   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  23:51, 3 January 2021 (UTC)

@Dunkleosteus77: Agree with you, since also notable theories (scientific or not) that were spun around EEMH belong to the scope of the article. --Rsk6400 (talk) 07:07, 4 January 2021 (UTC)

Much better. Thanks. GenQuest ^"scribble" 08:47, 4 January 2021 (UTC)

Requested move 9 May 2021

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Consensus to move. Most editors expressing an opinion believe that the proposed name is a good match for the topic already covered in the article and that the proposed title better fits the requirement to precisely denote the topic as well as be recognizable to readers. (non-admin closure) (t · c) buidhe 17:21, 16 May 2021 (UTC)

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Early European modern humans → Upper Palaeolithic Europe – "Early European modern humans" was a title created to talk about early modern humans in Europe, which in itself is a poorly defined term (like how early is "early"?) The article has since mushroomed out to encompass all Upper Paleolithic cultures in Europe, from the beginning of the Upper Paleolithic to the beginning of the Mesolithic. Therefore, Upper Palaeolithic Europe would be a much more apt and descriptive title for the article content. User:Joe Roe has already contested this above because "it should also include information on the chronology, climate, cultures, key sites, that kind of thing" but I want to point out there is literally already a section called Chronology which includes climate and introduces the major cultures, and key sites are brought up where relevant (like Cueva de Altamira in Art)   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  19:37, 9 May 2021 (UTC)

• Oppose. To reiterate what I've said above (not accurately summarised in Dunkleosteus' selective quote): EEMH were a population of ancient humans better known by their older name Cro-Magnons. Renaming the article to the name of the archaeological period in which those humans lived is fundamentally changing the topic and leave us without one on this highly notable concept in palaeoanthropology. – Joe (talk) 19:56, 9 May 2021 (UTC)

Cro-Magnon is an outdated term extended to all European Upper Paleolithic modern humans   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  20:41, 9 May 2021 (UTC)

Yes... and? – Joe (talk) 06:39, 10 May 2021 (UTC)

You said we need an article on Cro-Magnons. I'm telling you Cro-Magnons is an outdated term for Upper Paleolithic Europeans. Therefore, from what you said, Upper Palaeolithic Europe is a perfectly valid title. Upper Palaeolithic is also used in most of the sources anyways, as opposed to Early European modern human which is used in like 1 think, and Cro-Magnon which is in a few older sources (or sources explaining why it's not used anymore)   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  07:07, 10 May 2021 (UTC)

I'm well aware that Cro-Magnons is an outdated synonym. That's what I just said. And yes a synonym for Upper Paleolithic Europeans – do you really not see the non sequitur between that statement and Upper Palaeolithic Europe is a perfectly valid title? People are not periods; periods are not people. That's why we have separate articles on Neanderthals and Middle Palaeolithic, Western Hunter-Gatherer and Mesolithic, Roman people and classical antiquity, etc.

If you're finding a lot of sources on the Upper Palaeolithic period, that's because you're not searching for the topic of this article any more. As I've said, I have nothing against creating Upper Palaeolithic Europe if that's what you want to write about. But there are hundreds of sources,[5] including entire books,[6] on "Cro-Magnons" and plenty on the modern preferred term EEMH.[7] We need an article on it. – Joe (talk) 07:51, 10 May 2021 (UTC)

This reminds me of an earlier RM where there was difficulty merging reindeer and caribou even though they're the same exact species, but both terms are used rather frequently. Notability doesn't include synonyms. Middle Paleolithic and Mousterian are different articles because there are other cultures underneath the umbrella of Middle Paleolithic way over in Africa. The same logic can be applied to Roman people vs Classical Antiquity, there were more civilizations than just Rome in Classical Antiquity. Your examples are akin to merging Aurignacian, Gravettian, etc. into this article, which is not what I'm proposing   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  17:13, 10 May 2021 (UTC)

• Support per nom. As can be seen from the article body and the references, the overall topic of this article is the Upper Paleolithic cultures of Europe. The WP:COMMONNAME for that topic is Upper Paleolithic Europe. Early European modern humans (EEMH) is a vague and rarely used term which in specialist literature mainly refers strictly to the earliest early modern humans of Upper Paleolithic Europe. Moving this article to the title Upper Paleolithic Europe would of course necessitate some article tweaks. The article was written to GA status by the nom, and he is therefore well qualified to make such tweaks. Krakkos (talk) 08:10, 10 May 2021 (UTC)

  @Krakkos: Large parts of the article are not about cultures at all, but specifically about the palaeoanthropological population (#Classification, #Demographics, #Biology), which would be undue in an article about the period. Much of the confusion here seems to stem from the use of the more up-to-date EEMH title over the more common Cro-Magnon – would it help to move it to Cro-Magnons?

And while I respect the work Dunkleosteus77 has put into bringing this article up to GA, entirely changing the article topic is not a "tweak". The article was already in quite good shape before he touched it and in fact, comparing that version to the current one, the "mushrooming" of the article with sections on e.g. art and material culture, which is now being used to argue for a change of scope, was all stuff he added. Based on the conversation above, it seems like Dunkleosteus77 did not fully understand the difference between populations, cultures, and periods in palaeoanthropology/prehistoric archaeology when he started the expansion, and ended up inflating the article with material on related but distinct topics that duplicates Upper Palaeolithic, Upper Paleolithic art, Paleolithic religion, etc. That the contents and list of references now reflects his initial misunderstanding is a poor reason to allow an existing article on a notable topic to be usurped. – Joe (talk) 10:09, 10 May 2021 (UTC)

@Joe Roe: Before I started https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Early_European_modern_humans&oldid=968571748 there was still a section which was dedicated to art, housing, clothing ("Behavior and culture") as well as a huge list of arbitrarily mentioned sites which talk about all of those as well. I did nothing to change the scope   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  17:16, 10 May 2021 (UTC)

• Support, same logic as Krakkos's. --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 09:10, 10 May 2021 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.