Talk:Volodymyr Zelenskyy

Requested move 7 January 2022

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Moved. The crux of the discussion is whether COMMONNAME applies in this case or SPNC does. Since the preferred transliteration was clarified, some outlets have gone with "Zelenskyy" (e.g. Sky News) and some outlets have stuck with "Zelensky" (e.g. BBC). This, to me, indicates that the matter of transliteration for those outlets is a matter of house style more than anything. Hence, I am not satisified that "Zelensky" is common enough to pass this muster.

WP:BLP dictates that we afford a certain level of sensitivity to living people. The matter of transliteration, especially as it applies to Ukranian topics (famously, see Kiev vs. Kyiv), is one of those where we we must consider said sensitivities. I am satisfied that the clarification is enough to pass the spirit — if not the letter — of the WP:SPNC. After all, COMMONNAME even allows for us to deviate from the most commonly used name if it would be inaccurate, and I daresay SPNC has that squarely in mind. Sceptre (talk) 19:33, 5 February 2022 (UTC)

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Volodymyr Zelensky → Volodymyr Zelenskyy – This is the official spelling per the article's opening sentence. The article's title is outdated, this should not be controversial. —Legoless (talk) 10:38, 7 January 2022 (UTC)— Relisting. — Coffee // have a ☕️ // beans // 08:46, 16 January 2022 (UTC)— Relisting. — Coffee // have a ☕️ // beans // 15:47, 28 January 2022 (UTC)

• Support per nomination. Although the transliteration of the President's surname into English appears to be predominant in the form "Zelensky", the official English-language Presidential website uses the transliteration "Zelenskyy" and that is how the name is transliterated in his passport. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 20:07, 7 January 2022 (UTC)
• support he appears to use 'Zelenskyy' [1]—blindlynx 00:38, 8 January 2022 (UTC)

  Specifically per WP:SPNC For minor spelling variations (capitalization, diacritics, punctuation and spacing after initials, etc.): when a consistent and unambiguous self-published version exists, it is usually followed—blindlynx 21:17, 8 January 2022 (UTC)

• Please demonstrate that the proposed title is WP:COMMONNAME.--Ymblanter (talk) 08:16, 8 January 2022 (UTC)
• Support  Four or five spellings are commonly used, one appears to be the most common in scholarly articles, but not the only commonly used one. Arguably, Volodymyr Zelenskyy better satisfies the WP:CRITERIA of precision and recognizability. He’s the only one we’ve ever heard of with that official spelling of the surname, and lets us redirect to the article from Zelenskyy. It also represents a WP:NPOV by respecting the living person’s own spelling, instead of imposing someone else’s preference (see WP:BLP, “high degree of sensitivity”). WP:COMMONNAME also lets us consider exceptions for accuracy and neutrality.

  Google Scholar, since 2018

  • “Volodymyr Zelensky” -Wikipedia 1,070
  • “Volodymyr Zelenskyy” -Wikipedia 165
  • “Volodymyr Zelenskiy” -Wikipedia 156
  • “Vladimir Zelensky” -Wikipedia 148
  • “Volodymyr Zelenskyi” -Wikipedia 109
  • “Vladimir Zelenskiy” -Wikipedia 33
  • “Volodymyr Zelenski” -Wikipedia 24
  • “Vladimir Zelenski” -Wikipedia 11
  • “Vladimir Zelenskii” -Wikipedia 8
  • “Volodymyr Zelenskii” -Wikipedia 6
  • “Vladimir Zelenskyy” -Wikipedia 2
  • “Vladimir Zelenskyi 0

  Google News (I presume it truncates results at 100)

  • “Volodymyr Zelensky” -Wikipedia 100
  • “Volodymyr Zelenskyy” -Wikipedia 100
  • “Volodymyr Zelenskiy” -Wikipedia 100
  • “Vladimir Zelensky” -Wikipedia 100 (dominated by results from TASS)
  • “Volodymyr Zelenskyi” -Wikipedia 27
  • “Volodymyr Zelenski” -Wikipedia 15
  • “Vladimir Zelenskiy” -Wikipedia 7
  • “Vladimir Zelenski” -Wikipedia 2
  • “Vladimir Zelenskyy” -Wikipedia 4
  • “Vladimir Zelenskyi” -Wikipedia 1
  • “Volodymyr Zelenskii” -Wikipedia 1
  • “Vladimir Zelenskii” -Wikipedia 0

   —Michael Z. 23:48, 8 January 2022 (UTC)

• Oppose. Zelensky appears to be most commonly used by most English-language media outlets in English-speaking countries. What he prefers, what the Ukrainian government prefers or what the "official" transliteration is are all irrelevant. See WP:OFFICIALNAME and WP:COMMONNAME. -- Necrothesp (talk) 14:48, 12 January 2022 (UTC)
  • See WP:NAMECHANGES. "Zelenskyy" was clarified as the correct English transliteration subsequent to much English-language reporting on this individual. —Legoless (talk) 15:00, 12 January 2022 (UTC)
    • I repeat, see WP:OFFICIALNAME and WP:COMMONNAME. Your reasoning goes against our practice. Most English-language media outlets are still using Zelensky. -- Necrothesp (talk) 16:23, 12 January 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose. Zelensky is still the most WP:COMMONNAME in English-language media.-- Aervanath (talk) 19:44, 15 January 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose. According to the Ukrainian transliteration, "Zelenskyi" is generally correct. By the way, now the government of Ukraine plans to check the correctness of transliteration in foreign passports.-- Jafaz (talk) 16:53, 18 January 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose as Zelensky remains more common, even in these uncertain days in Ukraine. --Killuminator (talk) 20:27, 23 January 2022 (UTC)
• Support per WP:SPNC: "For minor spelling variations [...]: when a consistent and unambiguous self-published version exists, it is usually followed". Ryvyly (talk) 22:14, 24 January 2022 (UTC)
  • It's not any sort of name change. It's merely a variation in transliteration. So this doesn't apply. -- Necrothesp (talk) 11:23, 25 January 2022 (UTC)
    • Luis Guzmán never changed his name, either, but he is nevertheless given as an example of this rule. Ryvyly (talk) 19:21, 25 January 2022 (UTC)
• Support, Volodymyr Zelenskyy is the official and widely used name (of a country's president!). RZuo (talk) 10:22, 25 January 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose WP:COMMONNAME, no reason to change the name at the moment. --► Sincerely: Solavirum 05:33, 27 January 2022 (UTC)
• Relisting comment: There has not been enough debate on whether WP:SPNC applies here, specifically: For minor spelling variations (capitalization, diacritics, punctuation and spacing after initials, etc.): when a consistent and unambiguous self-published version exists, it is usually followed. I'll note that Ryvyly's comment pointing to Luis Guzmán as an appropriate example needs to be corrected - or another example given - as I have removed that example from the SPNC guideline after a review (details can be seen in the diff). — Coffee // have a ☕️ // beans // 15:47, 28 January 2022 (UTC)
• Support - Per WP:SPNC, particularly the passage quoted by blindlynx and Ryvyly. Though it has been pointed out that the proposed move reflects a change in transliteration rather than an actual name change, I feel that this example still clearly falls under the spirit of SPNC, as the proposed change is predicated upon the subject self-publishing this name for themselves. ModernDayTrilobite (talk • contribs) 19:20, 28 January 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose per WP:COMMONNAME. Reliable sources seem to predominantly use single Y.  — Amakuru (talk) 17:11, 3 February 2022 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

2021–22 Russo-Ukrainian crisis

To include something to such section, one must have RS saying that an event X belonged to 2021–22 Russo-Ukrainian crisis. Also, that something should be significant. My very best wishes (talk) 20:08, 29 January 2022 (UTC)

Speaking more of the edit [2]: (a) how is the story with Poroshenko related to views by Zelensky? (b) how is moving personnel from US embassy is related to BLP of Zeknsky? (c) we are not going to include every comment by Zelensky. My very best wishes (talk) 00:11, 30 January 2022 (UTC)

(a) Poroshenko denied the allegations, calling them "fabricated, politically motivated, and black PR directed against [Zelensky's] political opponents. There is a long-standing personal and political feud between former President Poroshenko and current President Zelensky, and it should be mentioned in the "Controversies" section. — diff, diff

(c) He has been saying it for weeks. — diff -- Tobby72 (talk) 11:08, 30 January 2022 (UTC)

(a) - There is no proof that Zelensky was personally involved here, although he certainly could; this does not seem sufficient for inclusion; (b) - yes, that does sounds exactly like official statments by the Soviet government just before the Nazi invasion in 1941, so might be notable in retrospective, but right now is covered by WP:NOTNEWS. My very best wishes (talk) 18:59, 30 January 2022 (UTC)

Potential source

France24: Military tactics: Zelensky plays both sides in Ukrainian crisis, 18/02/22 Jr8825 • Talk 17:01, 19 February 2022 (UTC)

Reference 9 is suspicious

It is one of the few articles I have found that say Zelensky is leaning towards authoritarianism. I can't find much information about the author but the three other articles by him on the same website all seem like they are propaganda by the Russian government.

Rmacleod18 (talk) 18:00, 24 February 2022 (UTC)rmacleod18

@Rmacleod18: thanks for raising your concerns. The EUObserver is generally a high quality outlet, but I've also had my own reservations with the David Clark opinion piece (I, like you, was initially suspicious – as it was being misrepresented by several editors to add claims that Zelenskyy was responsible for "democratic backsliding", a phrase neither source uses). I searched around and found a strong FT article making the same criticisms of Zelenskyy, which I added to that sentence so that it's not reliant on Clark's article. I'm going to go ahead and remove the cite from that sentence as it's an opinion piece, so not an ideal source anyway. It remains in the Controversies section for now, where its allegations are covered in more detail; if other editors feel it's WP:UNDUE then I don't object to its removal. It does however appear to be a genuine criticism a number of Ukrainians and Ukraine experts have levelled against Zelenskyy over the last couple of years. I've also looked at the Clark's other articles for the EUObserver and they are critical of Putin, so I think it's unlikely he's a paid-up propagandist. The problem, as I mentioned above, is that several editors were going beyond what the sources say, so it's worth keeping a close eye on the page. The other question is whether this criticism is sufficiently important to include in our article lead section. I'm afraid I don't currently know the answer to that as I haven't dug around and read a wide enough range of sources yet. Jr8825 • Talk 18:28, 24 February 2022 (UTC)

Requested move 25 February 2022

Volodymyr Zelenskyy → Volodymyr Zelensky – Per WP:COMMONNAME. English Language media seem to most widely be using "Volodymyr Zelensky" to refer to the President of Ukraine, including media based within Ukraine. This includes WaPo, BBC, Ukrinform, Kyiv Post, NY Times, CBS News, Axios, The Times (of London), CNN, ABC News, the other ABC News, The Globe and Mail, and many others. People are searching for the spelling of his name with one terminating with one "y" more frequently than the name with two terminating "y"s, while Google Ngrams confirms near-exclusive use of "Zelensky" prior to 2019. Overall, the transliteration of his family name without a second "y" seems to be more natural, more consistent with how coverage of him spells his name, and seems to be the dominant way to transliterate his name (even among Ukraine-based English-language media). — Mhawk10 (talk) 16:39, 25 February 2022 (UTC)

Support as nom. Note that Ukrainian state media dominantly uses the transliteration with a single terminating y, even well after 2019. Per WP:SPNC The determination of how much extra weight should be given to more recent sources is guided by the likelihood the new name is going to stick – while Wikipedia is not a crystal ball, it needs to be unavoidable that the new name will soon be the most common name. In this case, the name change plainly did not stick, not even among Ukraine government-affiliated English language media. As such, the current title seems to be inferior to the proposed title, since the proposed title is the unambiguous WP:COMMONNAME. — Mhawk10 (talk) 16:50, 25 February 2022 (UTC)

• oppose per WP:SPNC he uses 'Zelenskyy' [3] —blindlynx 17:03, 25 February 2022 (UTC)
• Support per WP:COMMONNAME and WP:USEENGLISH. Rreagan007 (talk) 18:06, 25 February 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose: He uses 'Zelenskyy', this is the correct transliteration of his name. This was already discussed less than a month ago and the consensus was to move the article. I don't know why WP:SPNC is being cited in this proposal when it clearly states that for minor spelling variations, "when a consistent and unambiguous self-published version exists, it is usually followed". —Legoless (talk) 18:24, 25 February 2022 (UTC)

  My point is that there isn't a consistent and unambiguous self-published version when his own state media uses a different transliteration. — Mhawk10 (talk) 18:43, 25 February 2022 (UTC)

  How would state media, even if the President were to exert an iron grip on content (which isn't the case here, as evidenced by the fact that they don't even get his name right), be more self published than direct communication from said president? Acebulf ^{(talk | contribs)} 23:39, 25 February 2022 (UTC)

• Oppose per WP:SPNC. His official twitter and FB pages for example use the "yy". This was just litigated above, should be re-litigated in the future, not now. Eccekevin (talk) 19:50, 25 February 2022 (UTC)

Oppose He literally has his name as "Zelenskyy" in his official pages. Wikipedia does not replace correct with wrong. SteelerFan1933 (talk) 20:08, 25 February 2022 (UTC)

• Oppose We just had this discussion (see above RM which was closed 3 weeks ago.) 162 etc. (talk) 20:12, 25 February 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose The current spelling is fine, and is the official one used by the Ukrainian Govt. We already have had a discussion about this less than a month ago. If the proposer thinks that closure is incorrect, then they should request a review. Hemiauchenia (talk) 20:21, 25 February 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose/Snowball There is already a very recent discussion on the subject. Unsurprisingly, as evidenced by the strength of argumentation above, is appears that the consensus remains unchanged from a month ago. Acebulf ^{(talk | contribs)} 23:37, 25 February 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose per SteelerFan1933 -- HurricaneEdgar 23:40, 25 February 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose: No. Mr. Zelenskyy's name is literally that on his passport, the one used by the Ukrainian government, and the one we use, too. I should mention that the discussion from 3 weeks ago chose to move his name, and rightfully so. — Javert2113 (Siarad.|¤) 00:32, 26 February 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose per SPNC and the previous move discussion. I also suggest a WP:SNOW close. Jr8825 • Talk 00:40, 26 February 2022 (UTC)
• Support: There is one correct spelling (in Ukrainian) and many acceptable transliterations to English. And the single-"y" transliteration is the most common in RS, because there's really no such thing as a double-"y" in English, and transliterations are intended to be intuitively pronounceable. ― Tartan357 ^Talk 02:58, 26 February 2022 (UTC)
• Support: His name is widely reported with one "y" throughout international media. Miss HollyJ (talk) 03:15, 26 February 2022 (UTC)

Zelensky bio and Trump

Zelensky bio. In the section on controversies, the author cites an exchange with then President Trump and Zelensky. Trump is reputed to have asked Zelensky to investigate Hunter Biden. Zelensky DENIES the exchange. Further, Zelensky’s denial is cited in an earlier passage. 172.223.160.182 (talk) 17:42, 25 February 2022 (UTC)

Social issues - legalisation of weapons

(for context see social issues section)

So now that all Ukrainian citizens can be armed (on paper, see: [4]) should this be mentioned in his social views section? Obviously it is quite a different situation when he said that he opposes them in the RBC Ukraine source as it is full out war now, but it is quite a contrast as he said he was against it all before. So maybe it should be mentioned here. 24.44.73.34 (talk) 20:03, 25 February 2022 (UTC)

The arming of civilians may be relevant for inclusion, although general mobilisation is already mentioned (which might cover this?) – regardless, it would best fit in the section on his response to the invasion, rather than the section on his social policies. Jr8825 • Talk 00:42, 26 February 2022 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 25 February 2022

62.117.159.247 (talk) 21:51, 25 February 2022 (UTC)

Entrepreneur should also be added to his bio.

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 22:31, 25 February 2022 (UTC)