Talk:Snowdonia

Yr Wyddfa mention

The name Yr Wyddfa is mentioned in Snowdon article, but it is confusing to mention it here while saying that the area is named after Snowdon because that's not true in Welsh. Deleted Yr Wyddfa and added Eryri.

Black n white pic

Hiya. I've got a picture at Image:Bristly_ridge_in_winter.jpg if that's any use to this, or similar articles. Ojw 00:07, 5 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Sorry to be a "wet blanket" but we really need colour pics of a National Park and yours is black and white. Others may be happy with black and white, but I'm sure colour pics will come along soon enough. Cheers! - Adrian Pingstone 09:47, 5 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Geology

I'm not sure this page should be classfied Category:Geology of the United Kingdom. Apart from a brief mention of slate at Blaenau Ffestiniog, there's no geologising at all. -- Pseudonym 16:30, 8 Aug 2005 (UTC)

External links on page

Please do not add commercial links or links to your own private websites to Wikipedia. Wikipedia is not a vehicle for advertising or a mere collection of external links. You are, however, encouraged to add content instead of links to the encyclopedia. If you feel the link should be added to the article, then please discuss it on the article's talk page rather than re-adding it. See the welcome page to learn more about Wikipedia. Thank you. --Nigel (Talk) 15:40, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

The above message from Nigel suggested that I discuss my desire to have a link to www.snowdonia-active.com. The site is no more commercial than a number of the other sites on the snowdonia page. Yes the site does contain a directory listing of businesses and service providers but it also has up to date news on economic, environmental and social issues issues affecting the region, a series of area and activity guides for those seeking futher info on outdoor activities in the area and a document library containing information on social and economic projects and studies that Snowdonia-Active have been closely involved with, in the region including a strategy to facilitate young local people into greater involvement in outdoor activities and hopefully into working in outdoor activities/education allowing them to remain living in the area thus helping to sustain the local economy, culture and language. I feel (yes I am biase) that the site should not be dissmissed as a comercial site seeking to use and abuse wikipedia but more a valuable information resource for those with an interest (perhaps yet to be discovered) in Snowdonia. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 81.7.23.166 (talk • contribs) 16:14, 6 Sep 2006 (UTC) Thanks Chris :)

Reaction rather than thought but I'll think it through and put on some more tomorrow. I think quite a few of the others should go! Take a look at WP:EL & WP:SPAM and bear in mind that Wiki is not a tourist directory but an encyclopedia (& yes I do like Snowdonia a lot). The trouble is that there are many - in your words - biased web master or similar who are all sure that their website has something to offer. They all do but probably not on Wiki. But I will think about it and get back to you I promise --Nigel ^(Talk) 16:24, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

OK - looked at all the oethrs (as I had before) nothing there is strictly commercial. In practice I am not in favour of links (& have removed yours before). Wiki is an encyclopedia not a directory and external links are rarely valid. If you want to contribute something other than links (I imagine you know the area well) great but I will be keeping an eye on the page (& plenty of other like it). Regards --Nigel ^(Talk) 09:52, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Thanks Nige, "nothing there is strictly commercial" Snowdonia and Mountain Visitors Guide is covered in google adverts? You are obviously doing a good job keeping an eye on things but there seems to be a bit of a mismatch between your reasoning and the apearance of links to commercial sites on wikipedia surely there has to be one rule for all? Thanks for your time. Chris:) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 213.210.57.113 (talk • contribs) 16:10, 7 Sep 2006 (UTC)

Hum I detect a hint of sarcasm there. Interesting point tho - I use a fairly heavy duty HOSTS file (guess where I found the info) so I don't see the ads on it. However I'll remove that one to and bear that in mind on future sites. If you want to add to wiki - great - if you want to post links to your website then any number of editors will remove it --Nigel ^(Talk) 16:23, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Thanks again Nigel, I have a much clearaer understanding of how wikipedia works now, which is nice. I may well get round to adding some content if I get a quiet moment. Thanks, Chris

Removed from article: "Some quotes"

This section struck me as something of a disguised POV-fest ("we can't say how great Snowdonia is in our own words, but if we quote other people it's all right"). But one or two of them might be useful in context (e.g. a section about tourism and its history), so I'm moving them here.

Over the years much has been written about Snowdonia and North Wales, including the following quotes -

• "Views. Snowdonia has them in such spectacular abundance that you quickly run out of superlatives to describe them. At the top of every peak a glorious vista unfolds. Each bend in the road unfurls to reveal a new perspective of gasp-inducing splendour."

Francis Hardy, Daily Mail reporter, 14.12.2002

• "Perhaps in the whole world there is no region more picturesquely beautiful than Snowdonia, a region of mountains, lakes, cateracts and groves, in which Nature shows herself in her most grand and beautiful forms."

George Borrow, "Wild Wales", 1862

• "Snowdonia is superbly beautiful country ...."

John Wyatt, "The National Parks of England & Wales", 1988

• "It (Snowdonia) comprises, within a comparatively small area, some of the loveliest and most varied country that our island has to offer."

Penguin Guide to North Wales, 1949

• "... collected into a small space, more that is graceful, beautiful and romantic, may be found in North Wales than in any other spot in Europe."

Louisea Costello, "The Falls, Lakes and Mountains of North Wales", 1839

--Blisco 19:06, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

I think it is okay if we quote significant writers to say how a place is appreciated; that Snowdonia has been and continues to be appreciated for its grandeur and natural beauty etc is as much a fact as Beddgelert being a village within it. This is a referenced approach to mentioning those facts though I'd agree that we should not go over the top with it. For myself I'd pick up Borrow's quote as he was one of those responsible for inspiring further visitation so has an almost tangible part in Snowdonia's history. cheers Geopersona (talk) 20:32, 1 June 2020 (UTC)

'Snowdonia National Park' Merge

Shouldn't this be merged with Snowdonia National Park? There seems to be only a very minimal difference in the areas. Morwen - Talk 15:35, 29 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Yeah. Is there actually a difference? Snowdonia is the national park right? or do they represent slightly different areas? Did the name Snowdonia exist before the national park was declared? Anyone know? -- Nojer2 08:47, 6 Dec 2004 (UTC)

They Should be merged because it would mean less digging around and being able to use the whole lot offline not just one part

I've proposed a merger of this article with Snowdonia National Park, since (as mentioned by Morwen above) there is minimal difference between the two areas. Admittedly many people, including myself, tend to think of Snowdonia as the Snowdon area excluding the Rhynogydd and Cadair Idris, but the distinction is now fairly blurred; indeed this article covers the whole national park. If there are no objections I'll merge the two in the near future. --Blisco 11:48, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

Agree. I confess I found it strange that there were two pages (while respecting a more local view). --Herby ^{talk to me} 11:52, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I agree. Go ahead with a merger, but be sure to retain the initial paragraph which clearly defines how the two are perceived.

Hogyn Lleol 13:10, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

Merger done. --Blisco 19:06, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

Issue with the merge

The merge of Snowdonia and Snowdonia National Park is causing problems with inter project and inter language links. There are two Wikidata entries d:Q867913 and d:Q20888920 with Wikipedia and Wikivoyage articles listed in both. Usually I would just merge these two lists but there are two separate articles on the subject in Welsh, Breton and Catalan. My knowledge of Gallic languages does not go past road signs so not capable of merging these pages. Proposing to move all language and project articles to Snowdonia were can, unless someone has a better idea? --Traveler100 (talk) 07:35, 6 May 2018 (UTC)

just been stumbling over the same issue, as interwikilinks are broken because of that. Has there been any progress? Agathoclea (talk) 17:18, 18 November 2019 (UTC)

Pronouncitation

Could someone had a pronounciation guide (IPA) for the Welsh "Eryri"? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.82.101.226 (talk) 07:14, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

Location map

Snowdonia

I've uploaded a location map of Snowdonia to Commons (shown to right). I have not created an associated {{location map}} template, but this can easily be done if desired.

If this is created, it will enable creation a map of Snowdonia similar to the one under construction at Talk:Dartmoor#Location map, and could be used in related articles (see this example). Hope people find it useful.--Nilfanion (talk) 22:13, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

Could someone add a new section "Geology"

Could someone add a geology section. What are the rocks composed of? Describe all rocks of which it is formed —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.50.171.220 (talk) 13:37, 11 December 2010 (UTC)

Have made a start on that and will expand it yet but reserve most detail for a separate article on the topic which I've already linked to. diolch/thanks Geopersona (talk) 20:26, 1 June 2020 (UTC)

Any information on early civilizations?

I've been looking for an article that contains information on the history of people in Snowdonia. Anyone knowledgeable? Thought it might be a good addition. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.7.201.42 (talk) 12:52, 8 June 2015 (UTC)

How about Ordovices for a start ?  Velella  ^{Velella Talk}   17:19, 8 June 2015 (UTC)

Improving the article

I was surprised to see how little attention this article had received over many years so decided to do something about it (actually my original aim was to put together a new article on the area's geology which I'm also doing but this one needed some getting into better shape). I've initiated various topics here and hope others will now take some time to develop and reference these more fully (and yes, i'll be adding more references soon myself) diolch/thanks Geopersona (talk) 20:38, 1 June 2020 (UTC)

discussion of name - maybe best done at Talk:Snowdon?

Given the recent decision of the National Park Authority to change how it refers to both the area and the highest mountain in English, namely Eryri and Yr Wyddfa respectively (the Welsh names) rather than Snowdonia and Snowdon, there are likely to be similar considerations regarding the choice of name in both cases. It is probably helpful if such discussion is in one place, rather than fragmented. So could I suggest using Talk:Snowdon rather than here, as the place to discuss these two closely related issues together? (In principle it could be in either place, but that talk page has more existing discussion already, so it would seem to make sense to choose that.) Dani di Neudo (talk) 19:59, 16 November 2022 (UTC)

I actually think that the answers are different. The National Park Authority does have the power to change the official name of the national park - and so as long as this article is about the national park, we should be seriously considering renaming it to Eryri. But it doesn't have the power to change the common name of the mountain, and so we should hold off changing that article to be called Yr Wyddfa until there's evidence of it becoming common usage outside the national park's own publications. GenevieveDEon (talk) 23:10, 16 November 2022 (UTC)

Requested move 18 November 2022

Snowdonia → Eryri – The official name has just just been announced as being exclusively Eryri, with Snowdonia being used only in a legal capcity. Titus Gold (talk) 01:03, 18 November 2022 (UTC)

Link to sources below: https://snowdonia.gov.wales/paper-on-place-names-principles-approved-in-order-to-safeguard-and-celebrate-welsh-place-names-within-the-national-park/

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/snowdonia-national-park-called-yr-25536121

https://nation.cymru/news/yr-wyddfa-snowdon-to-be-known-by-welsh-name-from-now-on-after-national-park-vote/

https://www.itv.com/news/wales/2022-11-17/mount-snowdon-to-be-known-as-yr-wyddfa-from-now-on

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/snowdon-to-be-known-by-welsh-name-of-yr-wyddfa-0762p302p Titus Gold (talk) 01:22, 18 November 2022 (UTC)

• Support as per above and as per WP:NAMECHANGES, although it may be worth waiting to see if the use of Eryri continues to be used in media and official sources etc. over the next few days+. I would also note that Eryri is already commonly used in both Welsh and English already, even before the official name being exclusively Eryri.

Titus Gold (talk) 01:45, 18 November 2022 (UTC)

• Support per NAMECHANGES.--Ortizesp (talk) 04:35, 18 November 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose per WP:COMMONNAME. As most people around here know, we name articles by their most commonly used name in reliable English-language sources, not by their official name. This article should not be moved until it is demonstrated that "Eryri" is used most commonly in English-language sources outside of just announcing that the official name has been changed. When Britannica gets around to moving their article, that will be a good indication that the name is in common usage. Rreagan007 (talk) 05:58, 18 November 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose per WP:COMMONNAME It's too soon; 'Eryri' is not yet the dominant name. Hogyn Lleol (talk) 09:43, 18 November 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose per WP:COMMONNAME, too soon to see if English-language media pre-dominantly stop using “Snowdonia”. DankJae 11:11, 18 November 2022 (UTC)

  The National Park's official website already uses Eryri on the English side [1]. Surely the Park Authority is the arbiter here, especially as the Welsh Government noted that is was for the Authority to decide: https://snowdonia.gov.wales/. At the very least, one has to recognise that that is the official name of the park (even if you still dispute the usage of the Welsh name for the range specifically, though that has also been made official by the park authority) 81.141.6.73 (talk) 17:06, 18 November 2022 (UTC)

  See WP:OFFICIALNAME (Wikipedia avoids official names in most situations), Wikipedia uses the WP:COMMONNAME as shown in independent sources. Significant time needs to pass to see if "Eryri" catches on in independent, secondary English-language sources, per WP:NAMECHANGES. It could be moved at a later date, but only when common usage supports such a move. It is too soon. DankJae 19:34, 19 November 2022 (UTC)

• Oppose per WP:COMMONNAME - this is almost a classic example of the case of this rule, the Welsh name is relatively unknown, as with most other official renaming with political undertones, these don't change its actual name - Snowdon is the most widely used name by far, and as with differently named Welsh cities, suspect this will not be for the short term either by any means. AlbusWulfricDumbledore (talk) 12:48, 18 November 2022 (UTC)

  Any decision regarding the official name of anything is political, but when the change of usage favours a native (and minority) language, it is more visible, and evokes an emotive reaction from the speakers of the dominant language. Your argument is therefore flawed; people have made the same argument about almost every instance where a native place name has been restored to official usage. When the spelling of Caernarfon was restored (from Caernarvon), similar argument were made (just look at the talk page), but nobody questions Caernarfon now. 2A00:23C6:7C14:9801:A89C:72E9:6972:5BCA (talk) 16:20, 18 November 2022 (UTC)

• Oppose. As per my argument at Snowdon. Its English name will continue to be Snowdonia regardless of any "official" change and English Wikipedia should reflect English names and terms, while Wicipedia Cymraeg should do the same with Welsh. – Dyolf87 (talk) 15:50, 18 November 2022 (UTC)

  How can you say that that the English 'will' continue to be used? That's an assumption, unless you can foresee the future. Not a neutral viewpoint at all. 81.141.6.73 (talk) 17:11, 18 November 2022 (UTC)

• Support the National Park's official website already uses Eryri on the English side. Surely the Park Authority is the arbiter here, especially as the Welsh Government noted that is was for the Authority to decide: https://snowdonia.gov.wales/

No, the Park Authority is not the arbiter for what the title of a Wikipedia article should be. Rreagan007 (talk) 17:14, 19 November 2022 (UTC)

• Oppose Proposal is contrary to policy. Also there is a fundmental misunderstanding here. The Snowdonia National Park Authority has agreed to use this name exclusively in its material, but it does not have the legal power to make this the official name of the park. It is the name used by the park authority on materials they disseminate, and the legal (i.e. official) name remains. In any case Wikipedia uses WP:COMMONNAME and policy is clear that WP:OFFICIALNAMES should not be used just because they are official. As and when the majority of media and common usage catch up, and the common name becomes Eryri, then at that point Wikipedia should follow suit. WP:NAMECHANGES says If the reliable sources written after the change is announced routinely use the new name, Wikipedia should follow suit and change relevant titles to match. At this point they clearly don't and so we clearly shouldn't. This proposal has come way too soon. We are not there yet. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 17:23, 18 November 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose per WP:COMMONNAME, given that no evidence has been produced that the common name has changed. Note that, contrary to several of the comments above, the official name also has not changed. What triggered this was a change in Snowdonia National Park Authority's style guide. Kahastok talk 20:51, 18 November 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose - the proposal, and indeed the proposer, are unsurprising, but it is premature for the COMMONNAME reasons articulated above. It will, almost certainly, happen but we are not there yet. KJP1 (talk) 21:49, 18 November 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose. The WP:COMMONNAME is Snowdonia. In ictu oculi (talk) 21:56, 18 November 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose My heart may say 'Eryri' but en wikipedia policy COMMONNAME says 'Snowdonia' Llwyld (talk) 05:35, 19 November 2022 (UTC)
• Neutral - Because I actually think we should split 'Snowdonia' from 'Eryri National Park', and not change the name of the mountain range until and unless the Welsh usage catches on in English, per WP:COMMONNAME. GenevieveDEon (talk) 15:53, 19 November 2022 (UTC)

Oppose as it is still referred to as Snowdonia in English by the majority of published sources and this is English language Wikipedia. In Welsh language Wikipedia it should be changed to Eryri if it isn't already. ---Greatestrowerever^{Talk Page} 14:08, 20 November 2022 (UTC)